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Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 09:42
I was strongly considering purchasing another 1911 but, i've sort of changed my mind about that. I dont have any combat tupperware and am considering purchasing one now... strongly.

I'm considering either a glock or a M&P. I already have a Beretta 92FS 9mm and the 1911 thats me and my dads project gun. I'm considering one of the above in either 9mm, .40, or .45.

The gun would be a by the bed gun/SHTF gun so id doesnt have to be concealable, although that would be just fine.

My dad has a M&P 40 full size, so im gonna go buy a couple boxes of ammo and put a few hundred rds through that gun to see if i like it or not.

I've held both the glock 21 sf, m&p 45, g19 and I like the way they all point/feel.

I'm not worried about the cost of ammo (within reason) my local wally world always has 9mm/40/45 in stock and the cost difference isnt that huge.

If i go with a 40, its going to be an m&p, if i go with a .45 or a 9, its a toss up between the m&p and the glock.

Is the .45 that much better of a gun that you all would consider going with it over the 9mm? what about the .45? is 9mm more then enough gun for defensive purposes or would .40 be a considerably more effective cartridge? what about .45?

What im looking for is the most effective cartridge for self defense. the one most effective at putting a "bad guy" on the ground, fast; when my life or my families is at stake, and keeping him there till the coroner arrives.

what im set on the most right now is the M&P 40 and 45 (45a)


now lets here some ideas....

sadmin
09-11-09, 09:48
if it was me, it would be between the g19 or the m&p45. eventually I would go home with the g19 due to battle-proven reliability. guess thats why I have one.

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 09:58
if it was me, it would be between the g19 or the m&p45. eventually I would go home with the g19 due to battle-proven reliability. guess thats why I have one.

the g19 has always been on my want list, i almost bought a g19 instead of my 92fs. I went with the 92fs because for my first handgun, i wanted it to be a steel framed gun with a soul.

The only, and i mean the ONLY reason the g19 wasnt on the super serious consideration list was because I somehow feel that because i already have a 9mm, i should for some reason get either a .40 or a .45. thats it, thats the only reason.

Business_Casual
09-11-09, 10:08
I don't see an option to vote for mastering the current handgun before spending money/time on a new one. Particularly one with a completely different FCG.

M_P

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 10:16
I don't see an option to vote for mastering the current handgun before spending money/time on a new one. Particularly one with a completely different FCG.

M_P

ive had the gun for quite some time, i dont have trouble hitting what im aiming at... at all. the question wasnt have i mastered my current gun or not. i've been shooting handguns (9mm mostly) on a regular basis since i was 15. Im 20 now. I've had my Beretta for almost a year, before the beretta it was my dads 226. lets stay on topic....

C4IGrant
09-11-09, 10:27
I would either get the M&P in 9mm or the G19. If you decide on the G-Lock, I would wait for the GEN 5 model coming out shortly.



C4

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 10:33
I would either get the M&P in 9mm or the G19. If you decide on the G-Lock, I would wait for the GEN 5 model coming out shortly.



C4

Gen 5? holy cow, that sounds sweet! ill be purchasing around decemberish before i DEP out so hopefully it will be out by then. whats special about it?

C4IGrant
09-11-09, 10:35
Gen 5? holy cow, that sounds sweet! ill be purchasing around decemberish before i DEP out so hopefully it will be out by then. whats special about it?

I don't think they are showing it off until Shot Show.



C4

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 10:38
I don't think they are showing it off until Shot Show.



C4

bummer. do you know anything about it that you can share? will it have the ugly fish gills? funky grip stipling on the frame etc....?

vel525
09-11-09, 10:41
My vote was for the MP9. I picked 9mm because even though you said there wasn't a significant price difference between 9, .40, and .45 if you want to be proficient you need to practice and to practice you need to shoot a lot. Over several years it will add up. With a good quality JHP I think 9mm will do just fine to protect yourself and family.

I picked MP, just because I personally like the feel of it better and like the flexibility of the backstraps. You will find plenty of support for both and plenty of aftermarket accessories if you want add/change anything.

Shopping for new guns is fun! :D

Business_Casual
09-11-09, 10:43
ive had the gun for quite some time, i dont have trouble hitting what im aiming at... at all. the question wasnt have i mastered my current gun or not. i've been shooting handguns (9mm mostly) on a regular basis since i was 15. Im 20 now. I've had my Beretta for almost a year, before the beretta it was my dads 226. lets stay on topic....

Oh, I see. I didn't realize you were an expert. I apologize, of course.

M_P

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 10:49
My vote was for the MP9. I picked 9mm because even though you said there wasn't a significant price difference between 9, .40, and .45 if you want to be proficient you need to practice and to practice you need to shoot a lot. Over several years it will add up. With a good quality JHP I think 9mm will do just fine to protect yourself and family.

I picked MP, just because I personally like the feel of it better and like the flexibility of the backstraps. You will find plenty of support for both and plenty of aftermarket accessories if you want add/change anything.

Shopping for new guns is fun! :D

yes sir, shopping for new guns is like christmas all over again lol. thanks for you opinion dude. my grand father has an M&P 9 that i can try out as well so ill talk to him and see if we can get to the range here sometime soon :D I understand that even thouhg 9mm is 20 bucks a box, and 45 is 27, 400 rds a month turns into a 28 dollar price difference, i can handle that.

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 10:51
Oh, I see. I didn't realize you were an expert. I apologize, of course.

M_P

I accept, but dont let this happen again ;)

vel525
09-11-09, 11:00
yes sir, shopping for new guns is like christmas all over again lol. thanks for you opinion dude. my grand father has an M&P 9 that i can try out as well so ill talk to him and see if we can get to the range here sometime soon :D I understand that even thouhg 9mm is 20 bucks a box, and 45 is 27, 400 rds a month turns into a 28 dollar price difference, i can handle that.

Ya, the $28 per month is only if you shoot 400 rds a month. I sometimes shoot 400rds in one session. Even at 400rds per month, that's $336 per year and $1,680 over five years. That's a brand new AR! Also, don't forget that's your wally-world practice ammo. You will also want to buy and practice with JHP which are more expensive. Just food for thought.

I figure at age 20 you're not a making a shit ton of money so just suggesting how you can save a little money while not losing a lot from a performance perspective. Good luck again.

Mr.Goodtimes
09-11-09, 13:06
Ya, the $28 per month is only if you shoot 400 rds a month. I sometimes shoot 400rds in one session. Even at 400rds per month, that's $336 per year and $1,680 over five years. That's a brand new AR! Also, don't forget that's your wally-world practice ammo. You will also want to buy and practice with JHP which are more expensive. Just food for thought.

I figure at age 20 you're not a making a shit ton of money so just suggesting how you can save a little money while not losing a lot from a performance perspective. Good luck again.

ive never shot that much in one session lol... i just cant afford to shoot that much along with .223. I shoot about 400 a month pistol and 500 rifle. I feel like this plenty of shooting to stay proficient as well. i spend my ammo wisely and shoot twice a month. it seems like every time i go to shoot, i get a little better then the last.


something about both the G19 and 21SF i held... believe it or not, no matter how crazy it sounds.... to me the g19 and 21sf both felt like a handgun should. the g19 to me had a really unique feel. Its not quite a compact but not quite full size either... it felt like what a handgun should feel like. The g19 really seemed, perfect. The g21sf felt the same way only its a full size handgun.

RogerinTPA
09-11-09, 13:26
bummer. do you know anything about it that you can share? will it have the ugly fish gills? funky grip stipling on the frame etc....?

Strictly from rumor control, at the fun range/store, with the owner and other alleged gurus, the Gen 5's are supposed to have adjustable back straps similar to the FN grip design, the same grip texturing and slide grip design as the current Gen 4s, but will still have the crappy finger groves, but all of that is strictly conjecture.

woodandsteel
09-11-09, 14:27
I voted Glock 19. That vote was based soley on emotion. I have recently become a proud Glock Kool Aid drinker. And I always thought that any collection should contain a Glock 19.(I know, I sound dumb for saying that)

With that said, I do not own a Glock 19. I do have the Glock 23, as well as the Glock 22. I like the 23 for carry purposes. We are issued the .40 caliber Glocks for my department. The department issues us our duty ammo, as well as supplies us with practice ammo. If we were issued 9mm, I would definitely get the Glock 19.

I am warming up to the M&Ps. They feel right to me. I just want to wait to see if they stand the test of time. My wife wants to get one with the thumb safety for concealed carry.

As far as the Glock 21sf, I really like it. Have held one several times, but have not fired one yet. It feels a lot like my Glock 22 in my hands. A coworker carries one as his off-duty. So, they can be concealed.

Luckily, you are in the position to test out a .40 cal. I know that you already carry a 9mm. Personally, I would not buy a .40, unless we were issued them. I just prefer the softer recoil of the 9mm and the push back recoil of the .45 cal, to the muzzle flip of the .40 s&w.

Irish
09-11-09, 14:44
I would go either M&P 9mm (w/thumb safety similar to 1911) or the G19. Take a look at the ballistics section hosted by DocGKR and read up on different handgun calibers and the differences in performance, typically it's nominal, as long as you're using a well designed round. With the 9mm in either gun you'll be getting alot more rounds down range before having to reload and in my opinion that's a good thing.

R Moran
09-11-09, 15:01
I went with the M&P .40

I think its as close to the "answer" as you can get.

As Doc Roberts says, whats not to like about 15 rounds of 180grn JHP, in a small light weight, low recoil, package. Its also relatively low cost, and low maintenance. Easily adaptable, etc etc.

As Doc also notes there's not much to choose from amongst the major defensive calibres, with a slight edge going to the .40 and .45 when dealing with barriers such as windshield glass.
If I misinterpreted his finding/posting I'm sure he'll correct me.

I'll give up 2 rounds, going from the 9mm to the .40, but not 5 or more rounds going from the .40 to the .45. I know the G21 holds 13, but its just to big for me, the M&P .45 is pushing it, for me.

Having said all that, everyone needs a G19, even if all you do is put it in a zip lock bag with a few loaded mags, for safe keeping.

Bob

John_Wayne777
09-11-09, 15:08
ive had the gun for quite some time, i dont have trouble hitting what im aiming at... at all. the question wasnt have i mastered my current gun or not. i've been shooting handguns (9mm mostly) on a regular basis since i was 15. Im 20 now. I've had my Beretta for almost a year, before the beretta it was my dads 226. lets stay on topic....

He is on topic.

All of us...well, most of us....probably like buying new guns. We enjoy the experience of playing with new toys today about as much as we did when we were little kids.

...but if someone is looking to improve their skill for competition, self defense, or just the sheer pleasure of bettering themselves with a firearm, investment in quality formal training is a far better expenditure of money.

Merely practicing at the range generally doesn't build a lot of skill because most people aren't enough of a "natural" to do everything right from the get-go. They often have huge holes in their game that a top quality instructor can point out and address in short order...and the newer the shooter the less ingrained the bad habits will be. Trust me on this: If buying more handguns made you a better shooter Dave Sevigny would be my bitch. Training and disciplined practice based on that training is what makes you better. Otherwise you end up with 35 or 36 handguns (I can't remember how many I have at the moment) and you'll still suck.

If you're able to shoot the Dot Torture test clean at 10 yards on demand, and you're scoring at least 270 on the Hackathorn standards, then forget everything I just said. If, however, you aren't hitting marks like that, then training would be a much wiser investment of any spare cash you have laying around than a different gun.

If you want to standardize on something that's relatively easy to support and maintain (as well as carry) as you seek to improve your skill, so be it...a 9mm Glock or 9mm M&P will probably serve you well...but a Beretta should be just fine for a good number of rounds if you properly maintain it. You also have to consider sunk cost...how much money have you put into the pistol, carry gear, and spare mags? Generally buying another gun won't save you any money because it will be more expensive to replace all of that than to just stick with what you have.

Learning to master what you've got is the best advice you'll ever get from anyone whether you realize it or not....because you're probably not as skilled a shooter as you think you are. Again, if you're shooting Dot Torture clean at 10 yards and you're smoking the Hackathorn standards, ignore all of that...but if you have never tried some of these skill drills or competition to see how you stack up skill-wise against other shooters....well...you have no idea what your level of skill is.

None of that even begins to go into the realities of using a handgun in a real fight, which involves a lot more than just core shooting skills. Buying a new gun won't help you with any of that either...but training certainly will.

There are a lot of guys on the forums here that have learned lessons the hard way, or who have spent $$$$$ obtaining training from the best in the business...or both. It's in your best interest to listen to the input they offer because it will help you avoid mistakes they've made and will ultimately lead you to a better place than with the penny-in-the-light-socket learning method.

R Moran
09-11-09, 15:45
Jw, MP,

I'm with ya, 100%, but I didn't want to get my peepee spanked for not "staying on topic":D

Bob

MarshallDodge
09-11-09, 17:56
You just can't win can you Mr. Goodtimes!?! ;)

First you ask what 1911 you should buy and get talked out of that then you are starting to get the feeling that your decision to buy another gun may be out of line. :D

It is good advice to stick with what you have but I made a change early on in my shooting life and found it to be a good one.

Recently I decided to try the M&P40 for several reasons but I don't think you could go wrong with any of the other calibers it is available in. It shoots soft and is very accurate with my reloads something I have not been able to do in the past with the Glock platform.

Julius Carbinius
09-11-09, 18:44
The M&P's seem like fine guns. For the money, I'd go with the Glock. Proven, indestructible, a huge aftermarket and arguably one of the most reliable semi-auto pistols available today.

I voted for the G19 since I have one. How popular are they? Look here. (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=514014);)

Alpha Sierra
09-11-09, 18:51
I don't see an option to vote for mastering the current handgun before spending money/time on a new one. Particularly one with a completely different FCG.

M_P

If you master one handgun you should be able to master any other in short order. Otherwise your fundamentals sucked to begin with.

And what's with the FCG fetish? Are you really that inflexible? Or is it just dogmatic?

Rider79
09-11-09, 19:21
I picked the M&P 9. I don't have one, I carry a 19, which I love, but I tried one out a couple weeks ago and I loved it. Unfortunately, I'm 11 9mm Glocks in, so a change to the M&P isn't really worth it economically.

Oh yeah, and I'm all for training, you can always get better.

m4fun
09-11-09, 19:46
Im with Rider. Have enough Glocks but would like a MP9(since I dont have one yet). I am of smaller stature so a good grip to get my hands around, especially with replacable backstraps. Hence, 95% of my pistol shooting is 9mm and I reload so that caliber suits me just fine.

TRD
09-11-09, 20:08
Glock 19.

crusader377
09-11-09, 20:51
I would go with the M&P 9 or the glock 19 although if you would like a .45, the M&P 45 would not be a bad option either. I would stay away from the .40 caliber options just because except for adding a third type of round that you need to buy ammo for, it doesn't do anything that a 9mm or .45 can't do.

Business_Casual
09-11-09, 21:03
If you master one handgun you should be able to master any other in short order. Otherwise your fundamentals sucked to begin with.

And what's with the FCG fetish? Are you really that inflexible? Or is it just dogmatic?

Yes, I am inflexible, dogmatic and clearly my fundamentals suck.

M_P

RogerinTPA
09-11-09, 23:02
Any of the M&P cals will do. I own them all but the .357Sigs. M&P9 for you, since you are used to shooting the 9mm, but I voted M&P40 since I enjoy shooting it the most.

Another vote for training. Your skill set will transfer to other handguns out there, whether they are good or suck. I know the temptation is over whelming to get a new firearm...(I feel your pain). The best firearm or custom job, won't get it done, if your skills are lacking. I have noticed you flip flop a lot on choices from handguns to ARs and Uppers. My goal my entire life with firearms, was to not just get familiar with it, but to master it. Work on your skill set and you will be better for it, when handling any firearm. ;)

R Moran
09-12-09, 09:25
I would go with the M&P 9 or the glock 19 although if you would like a .45, the M&P 45 would not be a bad option either. I would stay away from the .40 caliber options just because except for adding a third type of round that you need to buy ammo for, it doesn't do anything that a 9mm or .45 can't do.

Likewise, they can't do anything a .40 can't do.;)

Bob

BT2012
09-12-09, 10:36
I voted for G19 because it has been my service and off-duty carry for the last 15 years and it has been reliable. You can get easily acquire spare parts as well.

I recommend you read JW's post again. He made a lot of good points and in your original post you stated your next purchase will be used for self-defense. In addition, understand that there is difference between shooting a paper target, shooting a paper target utilizing a timer and having a bad guy shooting back at you. These are all different stress levels and Mr.Goodtimes your stress level is on the low level considering you have been shooting at stationary paper targets.

Whatever you ultimately decide to choose, whether it is an M&P, Glock, .45 cal., 9mm, etc, you have to comfortable with it in your hands otherwise you will not be confident in shooting and training with it. Keep this in mind, if a bad guy is high on drugs or drunk, it may not matter what caliber you have as your first shot may not necessarily take him down.

pleaforwar
09-12-09, 17:14
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/40/l_078fd69041e246238eb7ab9275c93f2a.jpg

You know what I voted for. :D

DevilDog0402
09-12-09, 21:26
Likewise, they can't do anything a .40 can't do.;)

Bob

Except shoot a .45 caliber 230 grain slug...

mr_smiles
09-12-09, 23:31
Took some one shooting today who was trying to see what gun they wanted, we had an xd, beretta, g27, and g19.

G19 won like always, it shoots straight and always goes bang when you pull the trigger.

Below was a me trying to disprove the glocks aren't accurate myth. It was a bit windy in the desert today so It took me three shots to connect with the card (stopped chasing it with the wind and decided to wait for wind to blow it into the path of my sight) maybe 10-12 meters out, not an amazing distance but it proved the point.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2883/glock1910m.jpg

IMSHAKN
09-13-09, 04:19
I would choose the m&p9 as I picked one up in July and have already ran 2000+ rounds through it trouble free. It likes cheap factory and hand loads. Comfortable gun...can't stand putting it down as it begs to be shot. Plus the warranty and customer service from s&w is amazing

CLHC
09-13-09, 05:18
Hope you find what you're looking for and Enjoy! :cool:

R Moran
09-13-09, 08:45
Except shoot a .45 caliber 230 grain slug...

And? its not like thats a death ray.

Bob

Alaskapopo
09-14-09, 05:13
the g19 has always been on my want list, i almost bought a g19 instead of my 92fs. I went with the 92fs because for my first handgun, i wanted it to be a steel framed gun with a soul.

The only, and i mean the ONLY reason the g19 wasnt on the super serious consideration list was because I somehow feel that because i already have a 9mm, i should for some reason get either a .40 or a .45. thats it, thats the only reason.

No offense but the Beretta 92 has an aluminum frame not a steel one.
Pat

Matt Edwards
09-17-09, 22:29
If you're able to shoot the Dot Torture test clean at 10 yards on demand, and you're scoring at least 270 on the Hackathorn standards, then forget everything I just said. If, however, you aren't hitting marks like that, then training would be a much wiser investment of any spare cash you have laying around than a different gun.

If you want to standardize on something that's relatively easy to support and maintain (as well as carry) as you seek to improve your skill, so be it...a 9mm Glock or 9mm M&P will probably serve you well...but a Beretta should be just fine for a good number of rounds if you properly maintain it. You also have to consider sunk cost...how much money have you put into the pistol, carry gear, and spare mags? Generally buying another gun won't save you any money because it will be more expensive to replace all of that than to just stick with what you have.

Learning to master what you've got is the best advice you'll ever get from anyone whether you realize it or not....because you're probably not as skilled a shooter as you think you are. Again, if you're shooting Dot Torture clean at 10 yards and you're smoking the Hackathorn standards, ignore all of that...but if you have never tried some of these skill drills or competition to see how you stack up skill-wise against other shooters....well...you have no idea what your level of skill is.

None of that even begins to go into the realities of using a handgun in a real fight, which involves a lot more than just core shooting skills. Buying a new gun won't help you with any of that either...but training certainly will.


First, I have to say "good post". There is a lot of sage and hard won advice here. However, I'd like to add something. I agree that buying a new gun will never replace skill. I'm tracking, but I will relay my own experience. Purchasing and training on a new pistol enabled me to become a better shooter then I ever had before. I went from my loved 1911s to 400 dollar 9mm Glocks. I have been able to shoot twice as much for the same price. I chased the 1911 for a while, but found that, for me, the Glock was just an easier gun to shoot well. Now, just so we are tracking, I'm not very good. However, in my last Lav class, I not only was able to make it further back on a walk back then I ever had, but more then once, it was just me and Lav.(He beat me every time...yeah, I was surprised too!) The key for me here, other then Lav getting into my ass, was that I held center mass and didn't have to hold over. In that capacity, I just had to worry about squeezing the trigger correctly.
An easier gun to shoot is an easier gun to shoot. Now, add all the training into a pistol that you naturally shoot better, and you may have a winning combo.(I, however, still need all the help I can get)
I guess what I'm sayin is that I fully support the OP's buying another pistol. I think we all agree that training is the key. I won't dispute that one bit. However, learning to run in running shoes may be easier then learning to run in jump boots.
I hope that makes sense.

John_Wayne777
09-17-09, 22:52
I'm completely behind trading in a $2500 1911 you can't afford to shoot or maintain in favor of a 500 dollar Glock that you can train with. You traded to get a weapon you could shoot more and you've obviously placed a premium on getting some of the best quality handgun training available on the planet.

You identified a goal, identified that some of your equipment choices were hindering that goal, and took sane measures to correct it....which isn't the process one often sees at work in these sorts of decisions.

Matt Edwards
09-17-09, 22:57
Thanks.
I just have to add that I kept both my 1800 dollar 1911s. However, I only shoot them when ammo is free.:)

rickb210
09-18-09, 12:51
Glock 19. I like the 45 acp(have a Sig 220 carry) & tried the Glock 21SF but the 21SF grip was still a little too big for me.

TOrrock
09-18-09, 12:58
Glock 19 or any of the M&P's.

....and not to be a buzzkill, but your Beretta 92FS has an aluminum frame, not steel.

If you want a steel frame 9mm; CZ75's, Browning/FN HiPower's, and older Gen 3 stainless steel S&W autos are about it.

Thomas M-4
09-18-09, 14:33
Have you thought about the HK45?