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View Full Version : XD's.....why do you all hate them so much?



jwfuhrman
09-11-09, 23:55
Im just wondering. Everyone I know that has a XD as their carry gun(including the local LEO's) have never had anything wrong with them. Ive had one for 3yrs, and can honestly say that Im horrible at keeping guns maintained, yet every time I go to the range, or to qualify for the local SR's(sheriff reserves) my XD40 has never failed me.

I personally think alot of other guns shoot great, especially Glocks and Sigs, but I dont own a Glock for the simple fact that it sits funny in my huge Bear paws. My natural point of aim is real high with anything other than my XD and 1911.

This is not a this gun is better than this gun thread, I just wanna hear what everyones complaints/praises are.


Edit: my only complaint is the long trigger pull, but Im used to it, and can operate it efficiantly.

montanadave
09-12-09, 00:15
Cheese and crackers, somebody lock this thread before it starts all over again!

bkb0000
09-12-09, 00:53
no.. dont lock the thread. the OP wants some specific reasons for why the XD blows- not to debate whether or not it does, or the merits of other weapons. that's valid, and not what XD threads are usually about.

I can't really give the OP an answer, but my thoughts are:

they're kind of like a "forced-joke"- a joke that could have been funny, but it required just a little too much effort to deliver, so is really not actually funny in the end.. the XD design has kind of been forced into the market, despite obvious flaws. the ergonomics suck, hand to bore position sucks, the trigger sucks, they've had little reliability issues pop up throughout their existence... overall, it's a marketable platform, but all these little things add up to a weapon that just isn't worth the same price as a Glock or M&P.

my buddy got a 45 compact not too long ago.. i found muzzle flip to be a bit too punchy for a poly gun.. and some funky pin in the top of the slide started walking out on the first trip to the range. springfield sent him a new pin. that's my only first-hand experience with them.

hopefully some of our resident pistol sexperts can do better than "it sucks" and give you some real, supported answers.

recon by fire
09-12-09, 00:56
Im just wondering. Everyone I know that has a XD as their carry gun(including the local LEO's) have never had anything wrong with them. Ive had one for 3yrs, and can honestly say that Im horrible at keeping guns maintained, yet every time I go to the range, or to qualify for the local SR's(sheriff reserves) my XD40 has never failed me.

I personally think alot of other guns shoot great, especially Glocks and Sigs, but I dont own a Glock for the simple fact that it sits funny in my huge Bear paws. My natural point of aim is real high with anything other than my XD and 1911.

This is not a this gun is better than this gun thread, I just wanna hear what everyones complaints/praises are.


Edit: my only complaint is the long trigger pull, but Im used to it, and can operate it efficiantly.

Don't you know, it has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. It's wether or not it says Glock or M&P on the gun. Gosh...:D

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-12-09, 01:04
I had one, and liked it. I thought the ergonomics were great, but then again I went from that to a SIG (and from 40SW to 9MM at the same time). The Sig and XD both have pretty high bore-to-grips. If I had to guess, it is that it isn't made here, but is marketed as being American and the fact that it is a pretty close re-imagining of a Glock, but with out much to make it stand out as clearly better.

The only reason I got rid of it was that it was the only 40SW I had at that time. Mine had a nice trigger, but there was an issue with the locking block and barrel with some chipping off the block. I had to send it back in and it ran fine after that.

K.L. Davis
09-12-09, 01:08
If the XD is what you are comfortable with and you can shoot it well, then drive on... what other folks like/use/want is up to them.

I can think of no show stoppers with the XD... are there *better* guns? I guess that depends on the criteria at hand, but IAW Rule 1, owning and training with an XD puts you way ahead of a lot of folks. I have never seen a bad guy back down from a lay-away receipt.

I have a couple of XDs, I have carried or been issued M9s, Glocks, Sigs, HKs and all manor of 1911s -- I have had nearly every one of them go down hard due to mechanical failure at some point, they is what they is.

There is no panacea, no perfect sidearm... I have met far too many people that compromise their personal comfort and ability, only to carry what others tell them they need to carry (and oddly, many of those advisors don't carry what they preach).

JiMfraRED1911
09-12-09, 01:11
Ahh, jeez...not this shit again. Use the bloody search function.

My reasons...

- srsly, the grip safety doesn't need to be there, as you can get yourself into a lot of trouble using one handed manipulations

- magazines are relatively fragile

- bore axis too high for my taste

- nowhere NEAR as simple as the GLOCK come detail stripping time

- relatively unproven

- lack of armorer support and EASY access to spare parts

- when people like David Bowie spend more time REPAIRING them, rather than enhancing them, I would take note

- I don't like getting ripped off by the marketing department at Springfield Armory just because their badge is on the slide (see the early HS2000 that were actual steals)

JiMfraRED1911
09-12-09, 01:17
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=23601

ThirdWatcher
09-12-09, 03:43
There is no panacea, no perfect sidearm...

+1

The weapon system is supposed to be the warrior. The firearm is a tool utilized by the weapon system.

Who wins a gunfight? The guy that makes the fewest mistakes.

The Dumb Gun Collector
09-12-09, 08:14
I've never owned one, but they have always seemed fine to me. I have enjoyed shooting them on many occasions. I wouldn't feed ill-equipped if I was issued one.

jwfuhrman
09-12-09, 08:22
i guess the high to bore grip is what I like about it. The reason I bought a XD is because it took all the high points from the Glock, and added a more comfortable frame, in my opinion. I just didnt know if I was missing something or what when I see everyone talk about XD's being a joke. I didnt buy it for the marketing, or because its got Springfield(ok, well, maybe a little, big fan of Springfield Armory, even though its technically not made by them).

Was just curious is all. Glocks are one of the best handgun platforms in the world, and I was ready to buy a Glock because of that until I shot a friends XD and I was sold. It just felt better in my hands.....Im still wanting a Glock though, haha

NoBody
09-12-09, 08:29
Deleted.

cougar_guy04
09-12-09, 09:00
- lack of armorer support and EASY access to spare parts

That was one of the biggest things for me. Maybe it will change eventually, but when I made the change from XD to Glock, there was no question about which had more support outside the factory. Add to that, the Glock mags were (at the time) $10 apiece cheaper than XD mags.

scottryan
09-12-09, 09:07
In addition to all the drawbacks about the pistol that others have mention, the pistol is a giant marketing and advertising scam.

The pistol is made in Yugoslavia (HS2000) and existed long before anyone heard of an XD, but it is advertised and marketed as such to appear that it is an American design and manufactured product.

Springfield Armory is good with the advertising scam. Everything they sell is mediocre at best.

The pistol is a bubba gun sold to people that do not know how to really use firearms.

markm
09-12-09, 09:34
In addition to all the drawbacks about the pistol that others have mention, the pistol is a giant marketing and advertising scam.

The pistol is made in Yugoslavia (HS2000) and existed long before anyone heard of an XD, but it is advertised and marketed as such to appear that it is an American design and manufactured product.

Springfield Armory is good with the advertising scam. Everything they sell is mediocre at best.

The pistol is a bubba gun sold to people that do not know how to really use firearms.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Half the folks who buy any gun with the name Springfield Armory on it think they're buying a weapon with heritage of the REAL Springfield Armory.... in reality SA is a brilliant marketing company that purchased the SA name years ago. It's a smart formula. But I wouldn't take any of their guns.

My skin would crawl every time the NRA would award SA's junky guns pistol of the year awards. :rolleyes: Coinidentally SA is one of their biggest advertisers.

Business_Casual
09-12-09, 10:47
My natural point of aim is real high with anything other than my XD and 1911.


Awesome. I love how you also worked in a distaste for Glocks, yet pretend you can't understand why some don't appreciate your favorite pistol.

M_P

askani79705
09-12-09, 10:55
I guess I'm a Bubba,My XD has been reliable. I like it.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-12-09, 12:37
My reasons...

- srsly, the grip safety doesn't need to be there, as you can get yourself into a lot of trouble using one handed manipulations




Can someone post pics of how a grip saftey wouldn't be engaged with anykind of shooting grip on the gun. I've heard people talk about the issue with grip safeties, but playing around with my 1911s, I can't do it with out basically not holding the gun.

kaltblitz
09-12-09, 13:16
In addition to all the drawbacks about the pistol that others have mention, the pistol is a giant marketing and advertising scam.

The pistol is made in Yugoslavia (HS2000) and existed long before anyone heard of an XD, but it is advertised and marketed as such to appear that it is an American design and manufactured product.

Springfield Armory is good with the advertising scam. Everything they sell is mediocre at best.

The pistol is a bubba gun sold to people that do not know how to really use firearms.


Croatia man. Get your Slavic countrys right ;)

Pappabear
09-12-09, 13:32
I have a couple. Really like the ergonomics, they point well, shoot well. Great guns. I think many folks are sick of the heavy marketing and success of the gun. There is no way they could sell as many as they do if they sucked. Are they better than this or that? Maybe -maybe not, but they do not suck. Very nice guns and do well in a very competitive market.

Just a business man looking at the facts.

loupav
09-12-09, 13:33
First time I shot an XD it was a 9mm tactical, and it was great. I have no problems with XDs. I just don't own one YET.

larry0071
09-12-09, 13:40
*Do not own an XD or XDm, but have shot a co-workers*

I kind of thought when I saw it that the grip safety was a take-off of the most famous and well respected pistols of the older times, the 1911. If most folks sincerely enjoyed the 1911 and did not find great fault with a grip safety in it's setting as a military pistol, why is this such a caveat to many folks today.

I do understand from reading some of the historical posts on this particular site that the biggest real downfalls are:

1. High bore to grip, causes excessive and undesired muzzle rize and felt recoil.

2. Extractor mechanism is integral to the weapon and not user or local armorer servicable. Weapon must be shipped to manufacturer should anything go wrong in this part of the system.

3. Many (not all) gun shops will at least stock some of the major components of a Glock/MP, very few will be found stocking anything for field repairs on a SA XD/XDm.

4. It is well documented and often discussed that the "XD/XDm" pistols are in fact an older pistol (HS2000) that commonly sold for about half of the current price under the previous and original name. Again, as mentioned in this thread earlier, many feel that Springfield Armory is thwarting the public into paying exuberant prices for a pistol that is basically unchanged (XD series) from the previous named version. This near double price came about when SA had thier name stamped into the side of the HS2000 and "reintroduced" the pistol as the newest/latest/greatest thing on the market with beautifull full color adds in every firearms related magazine a fellow could pick up. Reminds of Gale Banks Engineering. (I just puked into the back of my mouth from saying that name!)

5. And maybe the biggest reason there is not a great following is that many agencies have considered various weapon systems for replacement duty weapons, and rarely if ever has a well respected agency looked to the SA XD/XDm line as a life-line duty weapon for the men and women of our country to live/die by. This reason alone will stop many from placing thier lives in the hands of a weapon system that the professionals by-and-large tend to shy away from. When you are choosing a weapon to carry for actual personal defense or duty work, you do not need a pretty face.... you need rock solid dependability or as close to rock solid as you can possably achieve.
Since most of us do not have a scientific database of weapons and ammunition at our disposal or a lab with massive amounts of ammunition to perform durability tests and whatnot... we look to the industry professionals that do these types of tests and comparisons to see what they decide, and we tend to at least help shape our decisions based on what we see these folks do.

My unbiased opinion is that if you have or desire an XD/XDm, it is not going to fall apart in your hands. It will LIKELY function fine for many, many years. It may outlast my Glock 17. So just read and learn what you can about some of the pistols on the market and make a personal choice and be happy with it.

I honestly plan to buy an XDm9 for a range pistol. I've had a very good relationship with my Glock 17 since 1994, I really don't see me suddenly changing to some other carry gun after 15 years of rock solid dependability. But shooting a fancy-pants looking XDm at the range may entertain me for a bit.

Just my opinions based on what I have read/learned. Take it with a grain of salt and if you do not agree, feel free to correct me! I am no industry professional, not a soldier, and not LEO. I'm just some guy that lives in some town and has some firearms.

MarshallDodge
09-12-09, 14:06
I had a XD9sc for a while that I got pretty cheap at a pawn shop. It was a nice little gun, reliable, and I would have no issue carrying it. It was sold to a friend and he loves it.

It gets measured against the Glock like any other polymer pistol but like K.L. Davis said, every platform has its pros and cons.

Vinh
09-12-09, 14:14
I owned an XD9 for 6000 rounds when it first came out. I was convinced it was an improved Glock, but alas, it simply was not serviceable and I quickly ditched it for a 17.

(Sadly, the same thing is happening with my M&P9... :()

variablebinary
09-12-09, 14:17
The pistol is a bubba gun sold to people that do not know how to really use firearms.

Funny.

XD, the official pistol of mullet and tank top shooters

My own personal experience with the XD is they just aren't good guns.

A few friends and I got XD's after it HGOTY and there was a massive XD buying frenzy. This was like 4 or 5 years ago. All of our guns pooped on us and had problems. Nearly every shoot I've been to has an XD shooter fumbling with their gun because it's failing. On a side note these same shooters are usually wearing flip flips, shorts and lacking eye pro

Also, my XD was $379. It's a freaking joke that they are now $500+ dollars. Plus I think the grip sucks despite ergonomics being a big advertising point. Glocks and M&P's feel much better to me

bkb0000
09-12-09, 14:21
Also, my XD was $379. It's a freaking joke that they are now $500+ dollars.

and thats why people dump on them.. not because they "suck," but because they try to pretend they're equal to glock/m&p.

i think my buddy paid 550-600 for his..

spamsammich
09-12-09, 14:50
They're a good upgrade from a Hi-Point. ;)

sandman99and9
09-12-09, 14:59
I have an XD.45 that has been flawless for me for 3 yrs now. I will be buying a glock or maybe a s+w mp soon also. The xd fits mt hand well and shoots good too. The big kicker for buying it was that Basspro ran an add for $499 and I had a $100 gift card from my birthday laying around so it made it only $399. I have had a little trouble finding mags/acc. that I want plus a lot of shops want like $30 + for the mags!! I am reading lots of good stuff about the m+p so I will be checking them out soon.

s.m.

ralph
09-12-09, 15:20
If the OP follows the threads posted, the one titled "In your opinion why did'nt the XD take off" is well worth reading and will probably answer all of your questions.. As a little food for thought, consider this.. In the ten yrs or so since the XD (HS2000) was introduced, fewer than 100 LE depts acutally use them, By contrast, In the last 4-5 yrs since the S&W M&P has been introduced it has been used or approved for service by 505 U.S. police depts...The info on the M&P was printed in August's "American Rifleman" in the "random shots" section.. The XD info was gathered from the thread mentioned above I think on pg 2 of that thread... There's a reason very few LE depts use the XD... I had a XD45..I now have a midsized M&P .45 after learning the platform (took me awhile) You could'nt give me a XD...

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-12-09, 15:31
Are there domestic production clauses in PD purchase agreements that cause the low number of adoptions? If the gun is really that cheap to produce, I'd think that they would be dropping the floor out of prices to get some high profile PDs to take them.

Aren't there stories about Glock basically 'buying' contracts with super cheap guns to get them into PD hands?

variablebinary
09-12-09, 15:53
If the OP follows the threads posted, the one titled "In your opinion why did'nt the XD take off" is well worth reading and will probably answer all of your questions.. As a little food for thought, consider this.. In the ten yrs or so since the XD (HS2000) was introduced, fewer than 100 LE depts acutally use them, By contrast, In the last 4-5 yrs since the S&W M&P has been introduced it has been used or approved for service by 505 U.S. police depts....

Keep in mind the XD is classified as a single action pistol. 95% of PD's will never adopt a single action handgun.

John_Wayne777
09-12-09, 17:25
Are there domestic production clauses in PD purchase agreements that cause the low number of adoptions?


It may be a factor in some police contracts, but probably isn't a significant contributor to the lack of adoption of the XD.



If the gun is really that cheap to produce, I'd think that they would be dropping the floor out of prices to get some high profile PDs to take them.


There is a marked difference between what a PD pays for a firearm and the price you see on gunstore shelves, generally speaking. Excise taxes on firearms are part of that reason. (Firearms and ammunition are pretty heavily taxed)



Aren't there stories about Glock basically 'buying' contracts with super cheap guns to get them into PD hands?

Part of the widespread adoption of Glock handguns is due to the company offering very good deals on pistols sold to police departments. They would, for instance, offer to pay very generous prices for trade-in guns and then offer a lower price on the new Glock pistols than any of their competitors could match. Their much lower production costs gave Glock Inc. enough margin on each unit to be able to make deals like that and still make money.

Years ago a Glock armorer (for a big outfit) that was trained at Glock HQ in Austria told me that production costs for a single Glock 9mm handgun were under $100 bucks per unit. If that's true, you can see what sort of competitive advantage that gives them in the market.

Glock recently gave some department in New York new guns, carry gear, magazines, and a bunch of ammo to get their .45 GAP stuff in some LE hands.

The people marketing the XD have tried to get it into LE holsters...but generally they haven't performed as well as other designs in major trials, and from what I understand the ability for armorer level support at the department is very limited on them. You also have to consider the peer question...as in when it comes time to make major purchases agencies often look at what other agencies are doing.

scottryan
09-12-09, 17:38
I have a couple. Really like the ergonomics, they point well, shoot well. Great guns. I think many folks are sick of the heavy marketing and success of the gun. There is no way they could sell as many as they do if they sucked. Are they better than this or that? Maybe -maybe not, but they do not suck. Very nice guns and do well in a very competitive market.

Just a business man looking at the facts.


Again, this is because they are displayed front and center at major chain sporting good stores (Scheels, Cabelas, etc) and are advertised in a way to give the illusion they are American made. While other Glock, SIG, etc are foreign and yes bubba does shy away from foreign firearms.

Their success has little to do with the technical merits of the pistol's design.

Same holds true in the sporting shotgun market between Winchester and Benelli. The new Winchester sporting shotguns aren't that great of a design but are marketed as American even though they are made in Belgium, Portugal, and Japan.

goodoleboy
09-12-09, 17:45
I have the XD-45 5" tactical model. I have bear paw hands, but not big enough to make any of the 45 glocks feel good in my hand. I've never liked the way a Glock feels in my hands (sorry, just my humble opinion). The buldge in the main spring housing is a little much for me (it makes me want to shoot birds out of the sky when I throw it up fast). I admit that the grips on the XD are large, but not as bulky as the Glock. The sights sit higher on the XD than on the glocks, but I grew up shooting a 1911, so I'm used to that height.

In the two years I've owned it, I've never had a malfunction in my XD that wasn't the fault of the ammunition. It is a very accurate shooting pistol (for the price), and it works good for me.

I know that the Glock is more simple than the XD, Glock has been adopted by more militaries/law enforcement agencies than the XD could ever hope to see, and I know that the XD isn't a true "double-action," but I love the way mine feels and shoots.

I've shot Glocks that several friends of mine have (ported and non-ported) and they functioned flawlessly and grouped well, but I would completely have to revamp my muscle memory to be able to shoot one as well as I can shoot my XD.

ST911
09-12-09, 18:09
Keep in mind the XD is classified as a single action pistol. 95% of PD's will never adopt a single action handgun.

The term they use is "Ultra Safety Assurance" action, which upon mechanical inspection, is found to be a single action.

S&W has taken care to avoid the single-action issue with the M&P. They use "Striker Fire Action" and "Double Action Only." How they arrive at the latter is a mystery.

ST911
09-12-09, 18:28
Are there domestic production clauses in PD purchase agreements that cause the low number of adoptions? If the gun is really that cheap to produce, I'd think that they would be dropping the floor out of prices to get some high profile PDs to take them. Aren't there stories about Glock basically 'buying' contracts with super cheap guns to get them into PD hands?

SAI has had trouble in the LE market, based in large part because of the dominance of others. Product performance on the commercial side has not helped, nor has their lack of product support for both the commercial and LE units.

In the face of a certain failure, telling the customer "you have to beat the slide off the frame with a hammer before you return it" tends to get around, too.

Sweetheart deals to secure helpful contracts is not unique to Glock, but they are the most widely known and spoken of. S&W has inked some pretty impressive deals to get the M&P into significant and toe-hold agencies. Sigarms as well, especially when faced with losing longtime agencies to certain competitors.


There is a marked difference between what a PD pays for a firearm and the price you see on gunstore shelves, generally speaking. Excise taxes on firearms are part of that reason. (Firearms and ammunition are pretty heavily taxed)

No big secret, but as an example: At LEDs, a G17 w/ FS will sell to exempt agencies for ~$360, and to non-exempt I/Os (and in their public safety program) for ~$395. All price points above that for retail elsewhere, depending on the buying power of the retailer.

Unlike certain competitors, Glock does not mark up their I/O pricing beyond the addition of FET. This is also helpful when pushing product. Others set their I/O price differently. That's distasteful to me, or at the very least, less than competitive.

calvin118
09-12-09, 21:05
I used to own an XD, and although I tried hard to like it I never could. It had excessive recoil and muzzle flip compared to the competition, a spongy trigger with a long reset, a supposedly 'ergonomic grip' that I could not manage to hold in a thumbs forward position, and marginal accuracy. It never failed in the 5-600 rounds I put through it, but there was a striking performance gap between it and the other popular guns I shot it side by side with. With Glock 17/19's and the M&P's priced so closely, I don't see any upside. YMMV.

variablebinary
09-12-09, 21:18
The term they use is "Ultra Safety Assurance" action, which upon mechanical inspection, is found to be a single action.

S&W has taken care to avoid the single-action issue with the M&P. They use "Striker Fire Action" and "Double Action Only." How they arrive at the latter is a mystery.

Doesnt matter what marketing term is used.

The M&P pre-cocks the striker when you chamber a round, but pulling the trigger still has to cock the striker further for the gun to fire. Glock works the same way

The XD fully cocks the striker. I suppose this is why they included a grip safety.

crusader377
09-12-09, 21:52
I don't think the XD is a bad pistol but I do think that they are overpriced. I have fired both the 9mm and the .45 and they were ok but they were not worth the $500-$600. For that price I can think of numerous other pistols that are either more proven or better designs.

IMO, if the XD was priced around $300 to $350 it would be a pretty good bargain but for the prices that Springfield are asking for it, I would much rather get several other pistols over the XD.

ST911
09-12-09, 22:43
Doesnt matter what marketing term is used.
The M&P pre-cocks the striker when you chamber a round, but pulling the trigger still has to cock the striker further for the gun to fire. Glock works the same way
The XD fully cocks the striker. I suppose this is why they included a grip safety.

I have heard that trigger cocks the M&P striker further prior to release, but have yet to hear that from an S&W rep or employee, much less a distance of travel. I mostly get a blank look in reply, or "here, have you shot (another variant)?"

I know about the Glock... Striker travel on trigger pull in the Glock is easily discernable, and observable. Especially if you have a cut-away.

It'd be handy if we had a cut-away of the M&P.

bkb0000
09-12-09, 22:49
It'd be handy if we had a cut-away of the M&P.

somebody send me an M&P... i have a dremel.

Irish
09-13-09, 00:07
There is no way they could sell as many as they do if they sucked. Are they better than this or that? Maybe -maybe not, but they do not suck. Very nice guns and do well in a very competitive market.

Just a business man looking at the facts.
They sold alot of Yugos and pet rocks in the day too. Just because you sell alot of one particular thing doesn't make it well made or useful.

spamsammich
09-13-09, 00:17
I have heard that trigger cocks the M&P striker further prior to release, but have yet to hear that from an S&W rep or employee, much less a distance of travel. I mostly get a blank look in reply, or "here, have you shot (another variant)?"

I know about the Glock... Striker travel on trigger pull in the Glock is easily discernable, and observable. Especially if you have a cut-away.

It'd be handy if we had a cut-away of the M&P.

The sear has a convex surface or bump on the surface that engages the striker. When you pull the trigger the sear tilts down and that bump forces the striker back an additional .030" or so rather than just tripping the sear. If you go to the Burwell trigger job website there is a good PDF that has some good detailed shots of the sear. Sorry for my horrible description, I'll try to find a picture of what I'm talking about.

spamsammich
09-13-09, 00:19
I used to own an XD, and although I tried hard to like it I never could. It had excessive recoil and muzzle flip compared to the competition, a spongy trigger with a long reset, a supposedly 'ergonomic grip' that I could not manage to hold in a thumbs forward position, and marginal accuracy. It never failed in the 5-600 rounds I put through it, but there was a striking performance gap between it and the other popular guns I shot it side by side with. With Glock 17/19's and the M&P's priced so closely, I don't see any upside. YMMV.

This was exactly my take on the XD and XDms I've shot in 40 and 9, though I'm pretty sure I was the source of the "marginal accuracy".

kmrtnsn
09-13-09, 01:00
It may appear that SA is selling a lot of XDs, one or two at a time at the local gun shop compared to the Berettas, S&Ws, Glocks, etc. in the gun shop display case. Such piecemeal retail sales are a poor judge of sales success. If you want to judge the real success of a particular pistol then you have to look at the 1000-10,000 unit departmental/agency volume orders. When you judge the XD by that standard it is a dismal sales failure because there have never been any such orders.

Kilroy
09-13-09, 10:36
Doesnt matter what marketing term is used.

The M&P pre-cocks the striker when you chamber a round, but pulling the trigger still has to cock the striker further for the gun to fire. Glock works the same way

The XD fully cocks the striker. I suppose this is why they included a grip safety.

Agreed. It does not matter the term used, unless you are a government entity charged with purchasing based on actual mechanical characteristics.

Have you actually examined the fire control mechanism of the M&P? The trigger bar moves the sear so as to disengage the striker allowing it to to forward. The mechanism is not set up to actually move the striker, other then the sear moving across the bearing surface of the striker.

One only has to examine S&W's own documentation from the start of M&P advertising to see the evolution of this description.

The XD cutaway is non-functional as far as the fire control system. They M&P cutaway is yet to be seen. Very recently a large agency in the northeastern US did an actual technical evaluation of modern handguns with the purpose of a major investment in duty pistols. The M&P was removed from consideration when the technical analysis did not match the sales advertising description.

To those that it matters to, the M&P does not make the cut as a trigger cocking mechanism. To those that don't care, or have reason to care, they'll be quite happy with the M&P.

Kilroy
09-13-09, 10:50
It may appear that SA is selling a lot of XDs, one or two at a time at the local gun shop compared to........

When you judge the XD by that standard it is a dismal sales failure because there have never been any such orders.


Gun store sales of the XD were certainly helped by the "bounty" Springfield paid employees for the sale of each pistol. It became less about the what customer wanted or needed, but about getting another XD sold.

I only know of one large LE agency sale, on the West Coast, with the express approval of the firearms staff. Once the XD was in place, the staff pointed out that since single action pistols were now issued, "we" should be able to carry single action pistols that have an extra (thumb) safety. They wanted to carry 1911s. The CLEO was not amused.



They sold alot of Yugos and pet rocks in the day too. Just because you sell alot of one particular thing doesn't make it well made or useful.

A well made point. Furbies (sp?) comes to mind....

Patrick Aherne
09-13-09, 11:27
I have never been in a training class with an XD shooter who was able to make it through the class without pistol problems. Try injured-had drills with that XD, like one-handed malfunction clearing. That grip safety makes it a no-go for duty use. Armorer support and parts are non-existent. Most PDs do not have US manufacture clauses in purchase contracts for weapons. XDs do not get chosen for duty pistol use for the reasons I've posted above. I could care less how much a pistol costs, or where it's made.

bkb0000
09-13-09, 11:39
I have never been in a training class with an XD shooter who was able to make it through the class without pistol problems.

while i'm sure a lot of this is the gun, i also strongly suspect that this is a lot to do with the fact that most XD owners are highly inexperienced shooters... limp-dicking, shitty ammo, maybe even poor condition (floating around under the truck bench for a year without loob/cleaning).. combined with a weapon that had probably only been fired 50 times with some aluminum-cased Blaser that came free with the gun before the class..

Business_Casual
09-13-09, 12:04
while i'm sure a lot of this is the gun, i also strongly suspect that this is a lot to do with the fact that most XD owners are highly inexperienced shooters... limp-dicking, shitty ammo, maybe even poor condition (floating around under the truck bench for a year without loob/cleaning).. combined with a weapon that had probably only been fired 50 times with some aluminum-cased Blaser that came free with the gun before the class..

Now that is first class XD hating of the quality I've come to expect from this forum. The rest of you take note.

M_P

SHIVAN
09-13-09, 12:12
Now that is first class XD hating of the quality I've come to expect from this forum. The rest of you take note.

M_P

1, 5, 10 or even 100 opinions do not make his, the opinion of "this forum". If you disagree with his opinion, then either respectfully disagree with him or don't, but lumping everyone here in with his opinion is disingenuous.

Pappabear
09-13-09, 12:27
They sold alot of Yugos and pet rocks in the day too. Just because you sell alot of one particular thing doesn't make it well made or useful.

Hey Irish, I'm sure your pet rock collection is still worth something, hang in there:;)

Irish
09-13-09, 12:48
Hey Irish, I'm sure your pet rock collection is still worth something, hang in there:;)
I like your sense of humor :D

bkb0000
09-13-09, 13:09
Now that is first class XD hating of the quality I've come to expect from this forum. The rest of you take note.

M_P

i'm not saying this is all XD owners/shooters- i'm simply laying out a likely explaination for why XD users seem to have problems in classes. i was actually defending XD a little..

zxd9
09-13-09, 15:32
My XD9 Tactical has been a great pistol. I have over 17k rounds through it and the only issue was a broken trigger spring at 15k. I think that is pretty reliable.

Parts are going to break that's what preventive maintenance is for. Now that I know the potential life of that spring I'll change it around 10k. I hope everyone is changing wear parts and not waiting for them to break. That could be a potential disaster on a carry gun.

Rob Leatham won the 2006 USPSA Production National Championship shooting an XD9.

SHIVAN
09-13-09, 15:53
Rob Leatham won the 2006 USPSA Production National Championship shooting an XD9.

It's the singer, not the song.

scottryan
09-13-09, 16:01
while i'm sure a lot of this is the gun, i also strongly suspect that this is a lot to do with the fact that most XD owners are highly inexperienced shooters... limp-dicking, shitty ammo, maybe even poor condition (floating around under the truck bench for a year without loob/cleaning).. combined with a weapon that had probably only been fired 50 times with some aluminum-cased Blaser that came free with the gun before the class..


Completely agree.

scottryan
09-13-09, 16:03
Rob Leatham won the 2006 USPSA Production National Championship shooting an XD9.


He also is sponsored by them. He does not have to buy his own XD or service it himself on his own time and money.

Heavy Metal
09-13-09, 16:50
It's the singer, not the song.


He would have proabally won it with a slingshot and a bag of rocks.

WS6
09-13-09, 20:54
I shot and XD .40 at the range. It was printing right by about 4-5" at 50 yards and the trigger sucked compared to my Glock, or any Glock I have shot.

(I loaned the owner my Les Baer TRS and his groups cut themselves in half. He inquired where he might, and for how much he might get a custom 1911 himself. Upon hearing the price of even this bargain basement version, he quickly went back to shooting his XD. Sad to say, he was a security officer and was proud to make it to the range twice a year, congradulating himself on "off the clock practice". He had a lot of bad habits. I helped him with trigger control and he was shooting more on-target. The gun still shot to the right for me also, but he was doing twice as well. Maybe if the trigger didn't suck it would have been easier to shoot.)

My friend has an XD and a Glock and hates the XD now. He used to love the XD until he got the Glock.

This has been my limited personal/hearsay experience with the platform.

If you want a flexible polymer pistol, buy a Glock. If you want one that is less flexible, buy an H&K.

By flexible, I mean, I can take a Glock and apply a little pressure and flex it 6 ways from sunday. Technically a non-issue, but I find it is bothersome to my OCD and figure others might have the same sentiment.

Tennvol12345
09-13-09, 21:06
while i'm sure a lot of this is the gun, i also strongly suspect that this is a lot to do with the fact that most XD owners are highly inexperienced shooters... limp-dicking, shitty ammo, maybe even poor condition (floating around under the truck bench for a year without loob/cleaning).. combined with a weapon that had probably only been fired 50 times with some aluminum-cased Blaser that came free with the gun before the class..

I would venture a guess and say this applies to most gun owners (not ones that post up here, or on other boards). Doesn't matter if you have a XD, MP, etc. I have a MP and a XD, both are great guns, and no issues with either platform. Right now I have about 8K downrange with the MP and 18K downrange with the XD. Some say the XD's grip safety sucks, or that the trigger sucks, and yes at first I agreed. Now I don't notice either and the trigger has broken in nicely. I don't notice the muzzle flip at all.

Try it if you can before you buy it. If you shoot it well and it works then go for it, but to lump XD shooters in the limp-dicking, shitty ammo, etc category is pretty uncalled for.

scottryan
09-13-09, 22:21
but to lump XD shooters in the limp-dicking, shitty ammo, etc category is pretty uncalled for.



The vast majority of XD owners fall into this category because the vast majority of firearms owners are in this category. There is nothing incorrect about bkb0000's assumption.

You have to realize this forum is the elite of the elite. The average gun owner knows nothing about what goes on here or in other serious circles.

Put it this way, when I walk into Cabelas, Scheels, or just an average gun store, I am lucky to find one gun in there I am remotely interested in. I already own the guns in there or they are bubba guns that suck and do nothing for me. Most guns fall into the later category.

The average gun owner goes into these places and lusts for all that stuff in there.

boltcatch
09-13-09, 23:56
I don't think the XD is a bad pistol but I do think that they are overpriced. I have fired both the 9mm and the .45 and they were ok but they were not worth the $500-$600. For that price I can think of numerous other pistols that are either more proven or better designs.

IMO, if the XD was priced around $300 to $350 it would be a pretty good bargain but for the prices that Springfield are asking for it, I would much rather get several other pistols over the XD.

The HS2000 was an outstanding $325 pistol. The XD, as a $500 pistol, simply does not stack up to a Glock, M&P, or hell, any number of used SIGs and HK's.

That is the primary beef I hear from people, though I did have a friend make the change to Glock because of the spare parts issue.

It seems to have been a victim of it's own success, in having SA pick it up... seems like SA kills a lot of firearms like that.

Blob
09-14-09, 00:19
After owning an XD9 for over a year and a half and reading this thread, my personal experience has been pretty much the opposite. I find the ergonomics to be great (part of the reason I bought it), replacement parts can be purchased easily (xdguys.com), muzzle flip is NOT bad like people say, I was able to find magazines for around $15 pre-Obama, GREAT accuracy, blah blah. With the exception of some underpowered Magtech ammunition my pistol has been quite reliable after >2000 rounds or so. The trigger is fantastically smooth and crisp with a long reset, but you can easily learn to overcome that aspect.

bkb0000
09-14-09, 00:23
all you guys that say muzzle control isn't an issue: have you fired a low bore axis weapon of the same caliber?

if not, i think you'll probably be surprised..

recon by fire
09-14-09, 00:41
When I was in an advanced short range marksmanship class taught by the Army shooting team, I asked some of the guys on the Army shooting team if they liked the XD. They said that they like the XD, and it's a good pistol. I had a XD .40 with a ported barrel. I liked it very much.

Blob
09-14-09, 00:49
all you guys that say muzzle control isn't an issue: have you fired a low bore axis weapon of the same caliber?

if not, i think you'll probably be surprised..

If you consider a GLOCK 19 and S&W M&P-9 to be low-bore, then yes I have.

DocGKR
09-14-09, 01:01
My main problem with the XD's is the inability to retract the slide without engaging the grip safety--this makes one-hand injured operation very difficult. This is a no go for me. In addition, in some high round count government tests, the .40 XD's have broken a lot of parts...

kyrin88
09-14-09, 01:29
I have a glock 23 and I love this gun, you guys know all the details...XD doesn't have a fraction of experience as the glock pistols have. I have shot my friends xd in 45 acp( full frame)and I literally hate the dam thing
first of all it wasn't that accurate at even 10 yrds, making a 5" group and had 5 FTF. PMC ammo
I tried to carry it in my friends holster and it is very uncomfortable and buldges to much.
I dont know, that is just my little experience with this gun.

DocGKR
09-14-09, 02:42
While 9 mm Glocks are great, I lump .40 Glocks in the same less than ideal category as XD's:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147038111680.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147038113159.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147036107809.htm?ca
mpaign_id=magazine_related

AnimalMother556
09-14-09, 08:44
scottryan, do you like anybody? :D

SHIVAN
09-14-09, 09:01
scottryan, do you like anybody? :D

This is probably better suited for a private message or email. :cool:

scottryan
09-14-09, 09:57
When I was in an advanced short range marksmanship class taught by the Army shooting team, I asked some of the guys on the Army shooting team if they liked the XD. They said that they like the XD, and it's a good pistol. I had a XD .40 with a ported barrel. I liked it very much.


The opinion of these people has to be taken with a grain of salt as their exposure to other platforms outside of what is issued to them is limited.

scottryan
09-14-09, 09:59
If you consider a GLOCK 19 and S&W M&P-9 to be low-bore, then yes I have.



What about a Browning BDM or a CZ75?

kyrin88
09-14-09, 10:29
While 9 mm Glocks are great, I lump .40 Glocks in the same less than ideal category as XD's:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147038111680.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147038113159.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/09_38/b4147036107809.htm?ca
mpaign_id=magazine_related

Ok sir, I know that you are an industry professional, but have you had any personal experience with the glock in .40? My number one rule is to KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. In my honest opinions those articles dont mean a dam thing. Every single gun ever made has had problems, but I would never in my life put the glock 40 in the same catagory as the xd, because I can trust my life wit the glock but never had enough shooting time to say the same for the xd.

Business_Casual
09-14-09, 10:38
I think it is fair to say that it is universally accepted that the 40 S&W Glocks were under engineered and that the larger (than 9mm) cartridge accelerates wear and parts failure.

I'm sure your pistol is perfectly fine, but that doesn't negate the experiences of multiple departments/teams with the platform.

M_P

kyrin88
09-14-09, 11:10
And that is what it all comes down to, personal experience.

John_Wayne777
09-14-09, 12:05
And that is what it all comes down to, personal experience.

No, it doesn't.

There are people on this board who are in a position to supervise hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange through a number of different platforms every year, or who are intimately familiar with results seen from widespread use of a platform among a number of issuing agencies.

In other words, all opinions are not equal.

It's simply a fact that in aggregate .40 caliber Glocks are not as reliable and durable as their 9mm counterparts. Individual specimens can be found that work splendidly...but there are a number of agencies who have dropped .40 caliber Glocks after having major problems with them. The Indiana State Police come to mind immediately as they had such problems with .40 caliber Glocks that they made Glock give them 9mm guns instead.

If your personal .40 caliber Glock works, then so be it...but that doesn't invalidate the informed opinions of our SME's and IPs who are often in a position to see a lot more than most. Samples of 1 are never as good as samples of hundreds.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-14-09, 13:11
My main problem with the XD's is the inability to retract the slide without engaging the grip safety--this makes one-hand injured operation very difficult. This is a no go for me. In addition, in some high round count government tests, the .40 XD's have broken a lot of parts...

Hey, Doc, even with one hand manipulation, how exactly do you try to cycle the slide with out depressing the grip safety. The slide in my teeth while I put two fingers into the mag well? I have a hard time figuring out how to hold the gun with enough purchase to manipulate the slide with out having to hook the back of the grip where the safety is.

Maybe hook a finger in the trigger guard? Eck!!

I do think it is not the greatest 'feature', and I guess anything that can could cause an issue is a potential fault.

Blob
09-14-09, 14:57
What about a Browning BDM or a CZ75?

Can't say that I have.

Blob
09-14-09, 15:02
No, it doesn't.

There are people on this board who are in a position to supervise hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange through a number of different platforms every year, or who are intimately familiar with results seen from widespread use of a platform among a number of issuing agencies.

In other words, all opinions are not equal.

It's simply a fact that in aggregate .40 caliber Glocks are not as reliable and durable as their 9mm counterparts. Individual specimens can be found that work splendidly...but there are a number of agencies who have dropped .40 caliber Glocks after having major problems with them. The Indiana State Police come to mind immediately as they had such problems with .40 caliber Glocks that they made Glock give them 9mm guns instead.

If your personal .40 caliber Glock works, then so be it...but that doesn't invalidate the informed opinions of our SME's and IPs who are often in a position to see a lot more than most. Samples of 1 are never as good as samples of hundreds.

I realize that, and trust me I DO take into account their opinions and experiences. I will most likely acquire a GLOCK 19 some time in the near future but until then, my XD will (probably) continue to serve me as well as it has in the past. Oh well. Different strokes for different folks.

Failure2Stop
09-14-09, 15:11
Hate them?

No.

There are just other pistols that fit my needs better.

Just as I prefer ARs over Mini-14s, I prefer other pistols over the XD.

If someone uses one and it does what they need their pistol to do, rock on, but that does not in any way mean that it is the best pistol for anyone else or that everyone has the same needs, including myself or highly skilled professional shooters.

Littlelebowski
09-14-09, 19:10
A Very recently a large agency in the northeastern US did an actual technical evaluation of modern handguns with the purpose of a major investment in duty pistols. The M&P was removed from consideration when the technical analysis did not match the sales advertising description.


Will you elaborate on the above?

williejc
09-14-09, 22:10
I've owned XD's in 9 and .45 and had no problems. The .45 was nice.

My opinion, which is not a professional one, is that these pistols are ok, but at the same time, they are not remarkable. They would fit nicely in the sock drawer or glove box but not in my concealed carry holster. The guy choosing one could certainly do worse.

recon by fire
09-14-09, 23:23
The opinion of these people has to be taken with a grain of salt as their exposure to other platforms outside of what is issued to them is limited.

Limited to some degree. One of the rifles that I fired during the class was a full auto AK.

Rickenbacker53
09-15-09, 08:08
Ahh, jeez...not this shit again. Use the bloody search function.

My reasons...

- srsly, the grip safety doesn't need to be there, as you can get yourself into a lot of trouble using one handed manipulations

- magazines are relatively fragile

- bore axis too high for my taste

- nowhere NEAR as simple as the GLOCK come detail stripping time

- relatively unproven

- lack of armorer support and EASY access to spare parts

- when people like David Bowie spend more time REPAIRING them, rather than enhancing them, I would take note

- I don't like getting ripped off by the marketing department at Springfield Armory just because their badge is on the slide (see the early HS2000 that were actual steals) Hey Mate Please don't use the word bloody with a negative. If you actually were an Aussie or British ya'd know that. Good day

tpd223
09-15-09, 08:22
I don't hate them, I don't get emotionally invested in guns anymore.

I just think the Glock and M&P platforms are better choices.

scottryan
09-15-09, 08:29
Limited to some degree. One of the rifles that I fired during the class was a full auto AK.



That is irrelevant. I do not consider someone's opinion on a firearm relevant until they own one personally and be able to service it themselves on an armorer level.

All opinions are not equal as John_Wayne777 posted.

tpd223
09-15-09, 08:30
"Ok sir, I know that you are an industry professional, but have you had any personal experience with the glock in .40? My number one rule is to KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. In my honest opinions those articles dont mean a dam thing. Every single gun ever made has had problems, but I would never in my life put the glock 40 in the same catagory as the xd, because I can trust my life wit the glock but never had enough shooting time to say the same for the xd."


Well, I'm one of the Glock .40 bad-mouthing people, and for good reason. My agency had to give back 350 brand new G22s because they didn't work. Our issues were in the same time period as Indiana's.

Most recently Milwaukee PD and Detroit are trading in their G22s for M&Ps, there is a reason why major departments trade-in a weapon system all of a sudden.

The Glock .40s have more issues than most other major brand service pistols, fact of life.


We have a fairly robust program here. When I was the rangemaster I watched almost a million rounds of 9mm go downrange from our Glock 9mms, which is how I can comment with just a little authority as to the reliability of those guns as a system.
It's also how I can give more than a sample of one or a couple when I talk about issues with the Glock .40s

Rickenbacker53
09-15-09, 11:01
That is irrelevant. I do not consider someone's opinion on a firearm relevant until they own one personally and be able to service it themselves on an armorer level.

All opinions are not equal as John_Wayne777 posted. Armorer level. What's to be an armorer with a polymer Auto. I have owned 2 XD, several 1911's and 1 M&P 40. Could never hit a decent group with the XD's. I did have styles that were from the original family. I have no formal Armor training however once you take down a few 1911 completely and a Glock or 2 . Plus install new hammers mainspring etc. What else is there to know. Besides you can't tell how a gun performs my taking it apart. I honestly thought I would like the XD having owned several 1911's. But I was disappointed at best.

I am not degrading being an armorer. I am sure you guys no more than I do. But it's really not that complicated. IS it?

JimmyB62
09-15-09, 11:41
Hey, Doc, even with one hand manipulation, how exactly do you try to cycle the slide with out depressing the grip safety. The slide in my teeth while I put two fingers into the mag well? I have a hard time figuring out how to hold the gun with enough purchase to manipulate the slide with out having to hook the back of the grip where the safety is.

Maybe hook a finger in the trigger guard? Eck!!

I do think it is not the greatest 'feature', and I guess anything that can could cause an issue is a potential fault.

It's not so much that it can't be done with a grip safety, it's just more difficult. If you're hooking the rear sight on your belt you've got to apply pressure on the grip upward (toward the slide), then hold that pressure as you force the frame downward against the now stationary slide. It's like taking an ultra high hold on a 1911 to the point where the grip safety is not depressed. Same thing if you're using the sole of your boot heal, wall edge, whatever...

recon by fire
09-15-09, 12:25
I'm out of here. Just like the guy who's post's disappeared from this thread.

DocGKR
09-15-09, 12:41
kyrin88--Yes, I've been around a few.........................thousand of them. Although I have now sold ALL my Glocks in calibers other than 9 mm, I am well versed and experienced with them. You need to re-read the articles, as they provide evidence that Glock knew the .40 models had reliability issues, but failed to reveal that to LE agencies.

FromMyColdDeadHand--Depending on how one is injured, what gear is worn, and what malfunction is being cleared, there can be issues retracting the slide with one hand when forced to depress the XD grip safety. A couple of years ago, I temporarily lost use of my dominant hand following an injury and was forced to exclusively use non-dominant for several months--I tried a lot of pistols before finding the best one for me in those circumstances. The XD was NOT high on my list...

Rickenbacker53--Armorers at large agencies get to see thousands of pistols each year and see what parts are frequently failing.

I know tpd223 and can confirm everything has has stated about Glocks--you can take what he has to say to the bank!

scottryan
09-15-09, 14:04
I am not degrading being an armorer. I am sure you guys no more than I do. But it's really not that complicated. IS it?



The point is the vast majority of people are not even at this level.

FromMyColdDeadHand
09-15-09, 15:43
Thanks Doc! It never is people's weak side hand that gets hurt... if only we could be as smart as pitchers and QBs and throw punches with our off hands ;). I have no desire to relearn wiping my ass.

varoadking
09-15-09, 16:50
I owned 4 of them. Tried to like them, but they were innacurate as hell. Even Springfield couldn't fix the one I sent back to them. I sold them all, and regret at one time being responsible for someone else buying one...

HPLLC
09-15-09, 19:42
The trigger sucks. The rest is a good improvement on Glock.

ralph
09-15-09, 21:08
For some good reading, and more reasons NOT to buy a XD/XDm Go over to the XD talk forums..Forum titled "General HS2k SA XD talk" there is a sticky titled "barrel ramp jammed on locking block" 4 pages of this and how to fix....Bad thing is, no one over there sees this as a flaw.... Just something to "watch out" for..I see it as a MAJOR FLAW in the pistols design. And, to make matters worse, post #16 A XDm owner had this happen to him, he called S.A. and they were frantic..told him not to touch it, they wanted to see it,and had him send it back ASAP, as they thought they had redesigned it NOT to do this...His comment was, "OH well, back to the drawing board" My god, how can you brush something like this off ?? On a pistol that you may really, really, have to depend on?? S&W, HK, SIG, Glock, Beretta,etc, their pistols don't have this problem, Just another reason the XD/XDm dosen't cut the mustard....

Tennvol12345
09-15-09, 21:27
Glocks don't have the problem, they just KB...well the .45's do at least.

SHIVAN
09-16-09, 08:48
Glocks don't have the problem, they just KB...well the .45's do at least.

This sort of post is exactly the type of post we usually just delete. Do you have firsthand knowledge of a Glock 21, 21SF, 30, 30SF or other .45 Glock "kaboom"? Or are you just spouting off things you've heard on the internet?

In no way am I saying that no Glock has ever blown up, but your generalized statement is completely unsat for this forum.

Either provide links and credible sources, or don't post it. Thanks.

askani79705
09-16-09, 09:01
Glocks don't have the problem, they just KB...well the .45's do at least.
I have managed to chip guide rods on my 36.I bought a LSI steel one and it's going strong 5500 rds. So they don't ALL kb.

jwfuhrman
09-16-09, 11:40
I knew our state police(indiana) switched from Glock 40 to Glock 9's but didnt know it was that big of a problem. Im happy with my XD. I was wanting a G22 to play with but after reading the posts about how much trouble dept's have had with them Im not sure. still want a 9mm to plink with and shoot production class with, was thinkin XD9 as Im familiar with the XD's and figured get something your familiar with so you dont have to learn more than you need too, but maybe a G17 would be fun

Rickenbacker53
09-16-09, 12:19
The point is the vast majority of people are not even at this level.
Yeah I agree. I know there are alot of guys who come in the gunshop that can't figure how to even clean the things. So I here what your saying. There's a local guy that makes a living cleaning hand guns and rifles. Seriously. The reason I am saying I didn't think it was that complicated is because I don't consider myself a super mechanical person-yet I can take a gun down to bare bones and fix or mod things. It just doesn't seem that hard. Especially with Auto's.

I apologize to all who may have taken issue with my Armorer comment

the_fallguy
09-16-09, 12:35
To answer the OP's post -

I find some XD owners annoying much more so than the pistols themselves (not all of them, but certain ones). Not long after their inception it became en vogue for a lot of 1911 owners to bash Glocks. You should have heard how many of them criticized Glocks without ever even shooting one. Over time several of them seemed to recognize the benefits of a modern shooting platform, but they didn't want to eat their words or be embarrassed by changing their stance so the Glock bashing continued.

Enter the XD (previously the HS2000, which was comparable in my opinion to pistols like those from EAA, or Taurus, a conclusion I came to before Springfield Armory came along). It was a way for a lot of these big mouths to get a Glock without actually getting a Glock. Then I got to stand by and listen as many of them talked about how much better the platform was than Glocks due to the grip safety, better construction, superior take down design, etc. (I see most of the features that they uphold as more of a detriment). That's what I am personally annoyed with.

I carry a Glock 19, but I don't think they are the end-all-be-all of firearms. It just happened to be the model that fit my needs the best when I stepped back and looked at things objectively. The XD was too large, and the grip safety caused a lot of problems for me with one handed manipulations. I also saw several of them get traded for Glocks or M&Ps after choking in the local Sheriff's Academy shooting classes.

So these are the reasons that I personally don't care for them or a certain percentage of their owners. 'Probably more subjective an answer than you were looking for, but here it is.

jwfuhrman
09-16-09, 15:00
To answer the OP's post -

I find some XD owners annoying much more so than the pistols themselves (not all of them, but certain ones). Not long after their inception it became en vogue for a lot of 1911 owners to bash Glocks. You should have heard how many of them criticized Glocks without ever even shooting one. Over time several of them seemed to recognize the benefits of a modern shooting platform, but they didn't want to eat their words or be embarrassed by changing their stance so the Glock bashing continued.

Enter the XD (previously the HS2000, which was comparable in my opinion to pistols like those from EAA, or Taurus, a conclusion I came to before Springfield Armory came along). It was a way for a lot of these big mouths to get a Glock without actually getting a Glock. Then I got to stand by and listen as many of them talked about how much better the platform was than Glocks due to the grip safety, better construction, superior take down design, etc. (I see most of the features that they uphold as more of a detriment). That's what I am personally annoyed with.

I carry a Glock 19, but I don't think they are the end-all-be-all of firearms. It just happened to be the model that fit my needs the best when I stepped back and looked at things objectively. The XD was too large, and the grip safety caused a lot of problems for me with one handed manipulations. I also saw several of them get traded for Glocks or M&Ps after choking in the local Sheriff's Academy shooting classes.

So these are the reasons that I personally don't care for them or a certain percentage of their owners. 'Probably more subjective an answer than you were looking for, but here it is.


actually thats one of the best answers Ive heard.

While Ive shot Glocks, and IMO, they shoot REALLY good, I like how the XD's shoot FOR ME. My XD40 feels better, and shoots better in my hands than a Glock in the same caliber.

I made this thread because I was curious as to why everyone bashed, what, IMO, is a very good design. Yes, Springfield just slapped their name on a already made pistol, but the HS2000 was not offered in anything other than 9mm I believe(I may be wrong). In my opinion, the XD40/XD45's are one of the best shooting "major power" pistols out there, aside from a few others. But NO ONE can beat Glock when it comes to the 9mm platform, they have that refined down to a science that everyone else comes up short in, in my opinion.

Im actually going to be getting a G17 when I have the money, as I want a 9mm to play around with, and so I can shoot production class(instead of using a 40/45)

DocGKR
09-16-09, 15:11
SHIVAN--If it helps, a couple of years ago the police academy here had three brand new G21's fail/KB at under 1000 rounds when shooting factory ammo; Lazzarini has the specifics.

crusader4x
09-17-09, 21:48
Does all of the XD hate transfer over to the XDm series?

I've recently received my BCM middy M4 and am now in the market for a new pistol. For the past year, I've been heavily leaining towards the Glock 34 (or 35) but have recently begun to consider Springfield's XDm pistols.

I've shot a .40 XD and frankly, didn't care too much for it. It's nowhere near as nice as my Walther P99. But I've now got the new pistol itch and am curious about XDms.

EDIT: Unless there's any "new" information, I think I'm gonna stick with the Glocks. I did a site:m4carbine.net search of XDM and apparently, XDms aren't getting much respect either.

askani79705
09-17-09, 22:47
Does all of the XD hate transfer over to the XDm series?

I've recently received my BCM middy M4 and am now in the market for a new pistol. For the past year, I've been heavily leaining towards the Glock 34 (or 35) but have recently begun to consider Springfield's XDm pistols.

I've shot a .40 XD and frankly, didn't care too much for it. It's nowhere near as nice as my Walther P99. But I've now got the new pistol itch and am curious about XDms.

EDIT: Unless there's any "new" information, I think I'm gonna stick with the Glocks. I did a site:m4carbine.net search of XDM and apparently, XDms aren't getting much respect either.

I own one in gasp a .40.Here's the deal, full length guide rod,tighter build,thicker barrel, tighter groups,shorter trigger reset. It's a better shooting gun than my Glock 22.
This is gun they should have built in the first place,The gun I built using aftermarket parts(trigger kit,guide rod)out of my .45 tactical.

JohnN
09-18-09, 00:26
Stick with a Glock or an M&P.

slowjon
09-19-09, 14:30
I bought a XD 45 Tactical, probably because of the hype, when they came out. I have owned a Glock in the past. Hated that thing. Just didn't like the way it fit my hand nor the way I shot it. Not saying they are bad guns at all, I recognize their simplicity and durability.

Anyhow, the XD does feel better in my hand and I shoot it better than I ever did the Glock. With that said, the XD has been relegated to the bedside safe as my home defence, bump in the night gun.

The XD, really any of the plastic guns, just don't inspire me. Yeah I'm a 1911 guy. They just fit me and shoot better for me. I also think they are the most appealing to the eye. I don't knock the XD guys at all, nor the Glock guys. MY .02

RudyN
09-19-09, 15:32
I have a XD9 Tactical and three 45s (SA GI, SA Mil-Spec and Les Baer PremierII) and like them all. I like to shoot the XD9 more as ammo is cheaper, but that is about it. The Les Baer is a very good pistol for accuracy and it better be for the price I paid. :D

1oldgrunt
09-19-09, 15:51
Because the Glock is Austrian/Germanic :).....The XD is Czech:mad:

We all know the Czechs can't stand up to the Germans:p

It's true, an XD will never go the distance the Glock will, it true !

RogerinTPA
09-19-09, 16:25
Because the Glock is Austrian/Germanic :).....The XD is Czech:mad:

We all know the Czechs can't stand up to the Germans:p

It's true, an XD will never go the distance the Glock will, it true !


FWIW, The XD is Croatian.

kmrtnsn
09-19-09, 16:49
A German solution for Croatian pistols:

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/klunker.aspx

Cincinnatus
10-29-09, 14:42
It's not so much that it can't be done with a grip safety, it's just more difficult. If you're hooking the rear sight on your belt you've got to apply pressure on the grip upward (toward the slide), then hold that pressure as you force the frame downward against the now stationary slide. It's like taking an ultra high hold on a 1911 to the point where the grip safety is not depressed. Same thing if you're using the sole of your boot heal, wall edge, whatever...

You could do what Texas Rangers used to do with their 1911s and just tie the safety down. :D

Cincinnatus
10-29-09, 15:06
I am now more informed for having read this thread. I had no idea XDs had such issues since I had 2 and both worked fine; however, I have not fired either for the thousands of rounds needed to determine any models true reliability and typical weak points. I am now very glad I have an M&P and will now promptly drop the XD as my carry gun (I'l still use it at the range some) and use my M&P in defference to the many experienced professional opinions on this thread.

I am dissapointed to some extent and that is that I love three things about the XD and this is not due to any hype or marketing but due to my own experience and personal preferences: 1. the loaded chamber indicator can be felt in the dark--when I am arming my self upon hearing a noise at night, this has more than once been handier than doing a blind brass-check by feel. 2. the stiker cocked indicator that I can also feel in the dark 3. the ergonomics for me fit my hand better and render better natural pointability than even the M&P. I will be sad to depart from that. I suppose I should add a fourth reason and that is that I have already trained with the XD to the point where it is natural and instinctive to use and now I will have to retrain myself to the same level with the M&P.

Caeser25
10-29-09, 17:13
Hey, Doc, even with one hand manipulation, how exactly do you try to cycle the slide with out depressing the grip safety. The slide in my teeth while I put two fingers into the mag well? I have a hard time figuring out how to hold the gun with enough purchase to manipulate the slide with out having to hook the back of the grip where the safety is.

Maybe hook a finger in the trigger guard? Eck!!

I do think it is not the greatest 'feature', and I guess anything that can could cause an issue is a potential fault.

go down to your knee and sit the rear sight on the heel of your boot.

Bigun
10-29-09, 17:26
Awesome. I love how you also worked in a distaste for Glocks, yet pretend you can't understand why some don't appreciate your favorite pistol.

M_P Not at all I also have big hands and the Glock does not point right for me either, I was trained on the 1911 in the military and have carried Beretta 92's or 1911's ever since, I can shoot a Glock and it is a fine weapon but it is not the end all be all pistol that some make it out to be. I have to not only alter my standard grip but also force my wrist into an un natural position to shoot them. I owned a XD tac in .40 S&W and while the grip angle was right the plastic frame and any other plastic framed gun left me cold. The XD in my limited experience with my own was accurate and reliable but not for me. There is no reason to berate anyone for their choice of firearms as it is as personal as what kind of clothes fit you, as long as they arent shooting jennings , bryco's or Highpoints whats the differance.

Bigun
10-29-09, 17:36
go down to your knee and sit the rear sight on the heel of your boot. Or use a pocket, belt or the edge of your holster.

BLACK LION
10-29-09, 19:24
This thread was summed up on the first page in a single post but after reading 6 pages I figure I could kick a dead horse a couple more times for shyts and giggles

No platform is final wether you have had it on you hip for 20 years or 20 days. There is no be all end all solution and it behooves the practical shooters to familiarize themselves with as many platforms as possible. Wether we like them or not. I dont like glocks and may never own one, but I can shoot and manipulate them well. You never know.
I can think of a couple of guns I would personally choose "over" my XD .45 and they cost 2 to 3 times more too. I love H&K USP.45s
and I love balls to the wall 1911s...BUT this song isnt about them.

I have owned 2 XD .45s... A service and a Tactical model. Each ate thousands of rounds in a short period of time without any faliure that could be attributed to the gun. A mag, maybe. Ammo, sure. End user, definately. Not much cleaning in there either.
The "kit" that comes with the XD is useless aside from the mags, brushes, manual and warranty card. The holster, mag loader and mag holster is ghey.
The trigger is ghey. The sights leave more to be desired but they get the job done. Its a bit jumpy at first but thats all grip related and for some its just as simple as admitting that thier hands are too small for the double stack grip...dont blame the gun. The finish has held up extremely well to wear and tear and living in an area where salt is in the air daily, it says something.
It is accurate out of the box and completely ergonomical(ambidextriously:)).
I can manipulate it proficiently right or left handed. It takes a beating and keeps on eating. The mags have taken a beating and keep on feeding...all 7 of them.
I can pretty much service it myself and can field strip it with my eyes closed.

I sold the service model to fund a long gun project and kept the tactical model.
I have upgraded it a little and will continue till satisfied. It too, has seen thousands of rounds this year alone.

Do they have faults, sure. Are they the best, no. Does it work for me, yes. Will I bet my life on it, yes. Is it a be all end all solution, no. Should I be proficient with other pistols, definately.
To me, its a foundatrion to be built off of. Wether its enhancing the pistol itself or moving to other platforms and becoming proficient.

Pappabear
10-29-09, 19:50
Black Lion, you just said it well.

Cincinnatus
10-29-09, 21:43
This thread was summed up on the first page in a single post but after reading 6 pages I figure I could kick a dead horse a couple more times for shyts and giggles

No platform is final wether you have had it on you hip for 20 years or 20 days. There is no be all end all solution and it behooves the practical shooters to familiarize themselves with as many platforms as possible. Wether we like them or not. I dont like glocks and may never own one, but I can shoot and manipulate them well. You never know.
I can think of a couple of guns I would personally choose "over" my XD .45 and they cost 2 to 3 times more too. I love H&K USP.45s
and I love balls to the wall 1911s...BUT this song isnt about them.

I have owned 2 XD .45s... A service and a Tactical model. Each ate thousands of rounds in a short period of time without any faliure that could be attributed to the gun. A mag, maybe. Ammo, sure. End user, definately. Not much cleaning in there either.
The "kit" that comes with the XD is useless aside from the mags, brushes, manual and warranty card. The holster, mag loader and mag holster is ghey.
The trigger is ghey. The sights leave more to be desired but they get the job done. Its a bit jumpy at first but thats all grip related and for some its just as simple as admitting that thier hands are too small for the double stack grip...dont blame the gun. The finish has held up extremely well to wear and tear and living in an area where salt is in the air daily, it says something.
It is accurate out of the box and completely ergonomical(ambidextriously:)).
I can manipulate it proficiently right or left handed. It takes a beating and keeps on eating. The mags have taken a beating and keep on feeding...all 7 of them.
I can pretty much service it myself and can field strip it with my eyes closed.

I sold the service model to fund a long gun project and kept the tactical model.
I have upgraded it a little and will continue till satisfied. It too, has seen thousands of rounds this year alone.

Do they have faults, sure. Are they the best, no. Does it work for me, yes. Will I bet my life on it, yes. Is it a be all end all solution, no. Should I be proficient with other pistols, definately.
To me, its a foundatrion to be built off of. Wether its enhancing the pistol itself or moving to other platforms and becoming proficient.

The man makes sense. :cool:

G-2
10-31-09, 01:21
Dislike the back-strap safety.

Tornado_Racing
10-31-09, 09:18
I've gotta say my XDM9 has been flawless for me. Only got 1k rounds through it but not one problem at all. I do clean/lube after every trip to the range. I have 5 mags and have noticed the 2 that came with the gun seem to load and feed better than the 3 others. I use one mag for Hornaday Critical Defense and the other 4 are for the range.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

skyugo
11-01-09, 02:03
a buddy of mine had one in 357 sig. only worked with hot cor-bon ammo. i dunno if it was an isolated incident or what, but it didn't impress me.

ralph
11-01-09, 07:18
I would suggest to the OP to do a search, you'll find out why the XD is'nt well received around here. To put it bluntly, the platform is full of fleas that haven't been worked out.. Ever wonder why the XD hasn't been adotped by any large LE/govt agency's?? As far as I know the XD is being used by about 100 U.S. LE depts after being around for 10 years..The M&P has been around for 4-5 years and has been adopted or approved for use by over 500 U.S. LE depts That says alot.. I had a XD45 and the comment about it being a range toy is about right..I'll never own another..A M&P or Glock, either are about a lightyear ahead of the XD, and cost is about the same..

marh415
11-01-09, 08:19
This thread was summed up on the first page in a single post but after reading 6 pages I figure I could kick a dead horse a couple more times for shyts and giggles

No platform is final wether you have had it on you hip for 20 years or 20 days. There is no be all end all solution and it behooves the practical shooters to familiarize themselves with as many platforms as possible. Wether we like them or not. I dont like glocks and may never own one, but I can shoot and manipulate them well. You never know.
I can think of a couple of guns I would personally choose "over" my XD .45 and they cost 2 to 3 times more too. I love H&K USP.45s
and I love balls to the wall 1911s...BUT this song isnt about them.

I have owned 2 XD .45s... A service and a Tactical model. Each ate thousands of rounds in a short period of time without any faliure that could be attributed to the gun. A mag, maybe. Ammo, sure. End user, definately. Not much cleaning in there either.
The "kit" that comes with the XD is useless aside from the mags, brushes, manual and warranty card. The holster, mag loader and mag holster is ghey.
The trigger is ghey. The sights leave more to be desired but they get the job done. Its a bit jumpy at first but thats all grip related and for some its just as simple as admitting that thier hands are too small for the double stack grip...dont blame the gun. The finish has held up extremely well to wear and tear and living in an area where salt is in the air daily, it says something.
It is accurate out of the box and completely ergonomical(ambidextriously:)).
I can manipulate it proficiently right or left handed. It takes a beating and keeps on eating. The mags have taken a beating and keep on feeding...all 7 of them.
I can pretty much service it myself and can field strip it with my eyes closed.

I sold the service model to fund a long gun project and kept the tactical model.
I have upgraded it a little and will continue till satisfied. It too, has seen thousands of rounds this year alone.

Do they have faults, sure. Are they the best, no. Does it work for me, yes. Will I bet my life on it, yes. Is it a be all end all solution, no. Should I be proficient with other pistols, definately.
To me, its a foundatrion to be built off of. Wether its enhancing the pistol itself or moving to other platforms and becoming proficient.

This post sums it up for me, I'm not LE, and I am in no way an expert when it comes to firearms. I have a Glock 19 and an XDM .40, I also have had a woody for a Sig 226 for a long time ( to much $$$$ for me ). From what I have seen, there are lovers and haters for every "Reputable" manufacturer out there. Do you're homework and find the one that fits you and you're budget and be done with it.

Gentoo
11-12-09, 04:46
My biggest issue is that I can't see paying $500 - $600 for a unproven Croatian pistol, when you can get any number of well proven and tested firearms for the same amount or less.

If they were still $300, I would view them alot more differently.

BLACK LION
11-12-09, 13:30
My biggest issue is that I can't see paying $500 - $600 for a unproven Croatian pistol, when you can get any number of well proven and tested firearms for the same amount or less.

If they were still $300, I would view them alot more differently.

You say "unproven Croatian pistol" like the Cro-Ads dont know how to make pistols. The platform behind the revised "XD" has been around since 1991 starting with the PHP then HS95 and then the HS2000 which became the warhorse for thier military and law enforcement. The Cro-Ads are exceptionally good at what they do, especially with the trials and tribulations plagued by that part of the world, including thier own country. They revolutionized polymer framed pistols and IMHO others that came rode in on the Cro-Ads horse.
When the XD was unleashed, it has further inmprovements over the HS2000.

Unproven in what way.
In combat??? In class?? In competition???

Irish
11-12-09, 13:35
This is still going? I believe it's Croats and not Cro-Ads but I could be wrong.

XD's suck :p :D

BLACK LION
11-12-09, 16:31
This is still going? I believe it's Croats and not Cro-Ads but I could be wrong.

XD's suck :p :D

You are correct but I like my virgin better... ;)

Business_Casual
11-12-09, 16:59
Why doesn't an XD fan do a 50K round test on one - including some high-round count classes - then post the results?

M_P

BLACK LION
11-12-09, 18:48
Why dont they...

Would be nice to beat one like that...BUT...
That is 20,000.00 worth of ammo + the cost of the "high round course" admission, hotel-travel expense + the cost of additional required for the course....not to mention any replacement parts from the inherent wear and tear.
Thats allot of cash for a 600.00 rig...

It has been "tortured" on a few different occassions by different folks... the info is available.

Here is a great comment about the Cro-Ats;) and thier relationship with the XD:

"The XD series is the lifeblood of the Croatian factory and as such, is treated with the respect due. They are relying upon this marriage of efforts to keep the wheels turning on the home-front, so no expense or effort is spared in quality control and attention to detail. There is a reason it's called "old world craftsmanship" and you can see it when you handle the XD. There's a subtle blend of Eastern European minimalist design and functionality, diluted with a Teutonic flair for what pleases the eye. It works – and it looks good doing it." – Roy Huntington

Irish
11-12-09, 18:53
It has been "tortured" on a few different occassions by different folks... the info is available.

Not to be a dick but if the information is readily available then why don't you just post links for everyone?

Redhat
11-12-09, 19:12
Just google "xd torture test"...worked for me. :)

varoadking
11-12-09, 20:38
You say "unproven Croatian pistol" like the Cro-Ads dont know how to make pistols. The platform behind the revised "XD" has been around since 1991 starting with the PHP then HS95 and then the HS2000 which became the warhorse for thier military and law enforcement. The Cro-Ads are unexeptionally good at what they do, especially with the trialS and tribulations plagued by that part of the world, including thier own country. They revolutionized polymer framed pistols and IMHO others that came rode in on the Cro-Ads horse.
When the XD was unleashed, it has further inmprovements over the HS2000.

Unproven in what way.
In combat??? In class?? In competition???

Is that even a word? If it is...can you tell me what it means?

BLACK LION
11-12-09, 21:01
Its not a word.. its a typo.

Thanks for asking.

Its also Croat and not Cro-Ad....


I think this we are at the point of necrophilia on this dead horse.



Take care.

wake.joe
11-12-09, 21:12
Torture test.
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php


I only kind of "Skimmed" through this thread. But all I picked up was people saying the XD sucks for reasons other than malfunctions/performance.

Anyone have a first hand account of an XD going down?

ukhayes
11-12-09, 22:39
I would suggest to the OP to do a search, you'll find out why the XD is'nt well received around here. To put it bluntly, the platform is full of fleas that haven't been worked out.. Ever wonder why the XD hasn't been adotped by any large LE/govt agency's?? As far as I know the XD is being used by about 100 U.S. LE depts after being around for 10 years..The M&P has been around for 4-5 years and has been adopted or approved for use by over 500 U.S. LE depts That says alot.. I had a XD45 and the comment about it being a range toy is about right..I'll never own another..A M&P or Glock, either are about a lightyear ahead of the XD, and cost is about the same..

The driving force behind contracts is $$$. What you get for the price (mags,parts,training,service,etc.).

mhanna91
11-12-09, 23:20
One word. Croatia.

kmrtnsn
11-12-09, 23:23
"Anyone have a first hand account of an XD going down?"

Yes, me. In April, 2006, Glynco, GA, the Bureau of Indian Affairs shooter beside me, shooting an XD-40. By his account, less than 1,500 rounds through the pistol when the guide rod broke. The only way that pistol was coming apart was with a bandsaw; pick a half, upper or lower, which would you cut? My Agency was kind enough to loan him a pistol and holster to complete his training.

wake.joe
11-13-09, 00:57
That's a good one.

My first instinct is to blame a faulty part, not a faulty design, though.

Business_Casual
11-13-09, 09:42
There is no reason to disparage the entire nation of Croatia over one pistol factory.

M_P

Failure2Stop
11-13-09, 10:30
There is no reason to disparage the entire nation of Croatia over one pistol factory.


:p ...

JC0352
11-13-09, 11:26
in reality SA is a brilliant marketing company that purchased the SA name years ago. It's a smart formula. But I wouldn't take any of their guns.

My skin would crawl every time the NRA would award SA's junky guns pistol of the year awards. :rolleyes: Coinidentally SA is one of their biggest advertisers.


Springfield Armory is good with the advertising scam. Everything they sell is mediocre at best.

I don't know much about pistols at all; the only one I have is a USP .40 that my dad gave me and I have "some" experience with Beretta from when I carried an issued M9. It seems some of you guys don't like SA at all, and I was wondering if you felt the same way about their 1911s.

Business_Casual
11-13-09, 13:39
"Hello, is that a can of worms? Yes? Ah, JC0352 would like to open you."

M_P

Littlelebowski
11-13-09, 14:00
I don't know much about pistols at all; the only one I have is a USP .40 that my dad gave me and I have "some" experience with Beretta from when I carried an issued M9. It seems some of you guys don't like SA at all, and I was wondering if you felt the same way about their 1911s.

How about staying on topic and creating a separate thread for this?

DocGKR
11-13-09, 15:23
It has nothing to do with SA--in fact I carry a SA 1911 everyday; it in fact has to do with the fact that the XD has some problems, as previously articulated, compared to other pistols.

JC0352
11-13-09, 15:50
"Hello, is that a can of worms? Yes? Ah, JC0352 would like to open you."

Thanks, that was helpful...


How about staying on topic and creating a separate thread for this?
I'll do that.


It has nothing to do with SA--in fact I carry a SA 1911 everyday; it in fact has to do with the fact that the XD has some problems, as previously articulated, compared to other pistols.

Thanks for the reply, Doc. I'll start a new thread and please feel free to comment.

BLACK LION
11-13-09, 16:35
CZ-97BD anyone????

Business_Casual
11-13-09, 18:14
[QUOTE=JC0352;495361]Thanks, that was helpful...[QUOTE]

You're quite welcome.

M_P

decodeddiesel
11-13-09, 18:17
CZ-97BD anyone????

XD's.....why do you all hate them so much?

Anjin-san
11-14-09, 14:25
I use to have two XD45's (service models). Both worked great and never malfunctioned. However, my agency issues Sigs and I prefer to carry the same platform on and off duty. This led me to selling them. Keep in mind I only put a total of about 1000 rounds through each pistol, which is hardly a test of long term durability. As for one handed manipulation.... I never had a problem racking the slide off of my belt/leg/boot ect. In other words, the grip safety didn't inhibit this action.

Ghostface03
11-14-09, 14:51
I have had one for a number of years now. XD 40. Love it, never had any problem whatsoever with it. I shoot the shit out of it.

varoadking
11-14-09, 17:09
XD's.....why do you all hate them so much?

I have owned 4 of them and sold all 4. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them, and SA couldn't make them shoot any better...

They are a price point piece...nothing more... I have a house full of far better pieces...some at the same relative price point...and others...

Anjin-san
11-15-09, 03:10
Earlier in the thread someone asked for links to actual tests.

http://www.hs-arms.com/te-hs-round.php

wake.joe
11-15-09, 05:22
I'm seeing very little in actual malfunctions here.

I, personaly, don't like the grip of the XD. I never quite feel like my palm can mold into the extreme "dip" of the backstrap.

But, I haven't seen much of anyone posting actual breakages, and a lot of people posting outstanding performance.

Looks to me like an XD is as good to go as any other pistol. :)

ralph
11-15-09, 11:52
Well, that's YOUR opinion....I had one (XD45) and now have a M&P45, and a M&P9, I had alot of trouble with my XD, and for a short time I owned the XD and the M&P, this gave me the opportunity to look at them closely and see how they're built, The XD has a few flaws..

1. the extractor is in a poor location,(bottom of the slide) it catches alot of dirt from firing, and is a major pain to remove if/when it needs replaced, it cannot be adjusted.
2. Mag springs..this is a continuing problem for the XD, mine wore out quickly (about 1000 rnds) and started FTF.. the only known solution is aftermarket springs AGP 20% stronger springs...that fixed that...However, my M&P is still using the factory mag springs (We're now over 2000 failure free rounds)

3.Will not feed LSWC's... This forces you to buy what it will feed, I reload, and found out quickly that the XD is finicky about ammo LSWC's are out as well as some JHP's My M&P on the other hand, is not picky.. it'll feed any JHP or LSWC all day long..as a added bonus trying LSWC's in a XD will bend the rear of the mags out when the pistol jams, the mags will no longer drop free..get the needlenose pliers out...

4. The loaded chamber indcator....What a dumb idea!! over a long shooting session, mine would start sticking in the up or "loaded" position....sure a little cleaning and it would work as it was supposed to, But, what good is it when it'll stick when a little dirt gets in it?? Try reholstering with it sticking up...

If the XD had to stand alone without support from S.A. it would probably fade from the market quickly...After all, in 10 yrs on the market it hasn't landed a major contract with any U.S. LE/ military agency.(edited to add, they ARE being used by about 100 U.S. LE depts) The M&P on the other hand, in 4-5 yrs, has been, or is being used or approved for duty with over 500 U.S. LE depts.. Ever wonder why??

Powder_Burn
11-15-09, 12:58
Earlier in the thread someone asked for links to actual tests.
http://www.hs-arms.com/te-hs-round.php
Interesting info. An environmental torture test, 20,000 round test, and a squib round test. Plus, the separate 20,000 round test posted over at Springfield. Not exactly independent but I doubt any of these types of tests ever are anyway.

I have owned an XD-9sc and XD-45 in the past and encountered zero problems across relatively low round counts. They are serviceable but there are more tested pistols for the same money which led me to move on from the XD. That said, I have never seen any real evidence presented showing widespread quality or performance issues among the dozens of threads on this topic. Most folks just don't like Springfield Inc, their policies, pricing, crappy LE support, origin, etc which are separate issues.

kmrtnsn
11-15-09, 18:15
Always wanted to shoot a Steyr M40, seems like quite a bargain.

HK51Fan
11-15-09, 18:19
I couldn't bring myself to read all 8 pages. Wasn't this pistol brought into the country under a different name and distributer about 5-7yrs ago? It was a 300 dollar platform. What changed? This is a 300 range pistol. Just because Springfield decided to stamp their name on it, doesn't make it anything more than it is. The manufacturer knew this, that's why the included all the cheap plastic crap with it.

If I were to complain about a weapons platform that has been overlooked and is on par with the Glock I would say the Steyr M40 would be the underpriced/ over engineered pistol.

r.

User Name
11-15-09, 19:05
A lot of replies though for me it is that the gun feels top heavy and unbalanced. I prefer Glocks and S&W M&P's. Shooting G19's and G17's myself I actually prefer the ergo's of the M&P.

TRUST8383
11-15-09, 20:24
I have a Xd9 subcompact and I shoot the sh*t out of it. (around 3000 rounds now) I admit, it has become a nightstand gun for me, because I find it slightly bulky for my CCW gun in the summer time here in florida. However, in the winter time when it's cooler, I do carry it.

I also bring it with me on pretty much every range trip. For me it points and shoots very easily and naturally. Absolutely have no problems keeping tight groups at 7-15 yards and we were at the FOP range last weekend and I was easily hitting the metal silhouettes at 40 yards. I have never had one malfunction of any kind and I find it to be a super reliable, dependable, easy to shoot gun.

Sorry, i'm not adding much to the xd bashing party.

as you were.

dtibbals
11-16-09, 01:26
I didn't read all 8 pages either. I did read through a bit of it and people are mostly dead on. I have been a Glock and HK guy for as long as I have owned hand guns. I even had Glocks before they where popular lol. I did buy an XD45 since the G21 just does not fit my hand and never shot it well. I did shoot the XD45 well and never had any issues with it. It had around 8k rounds through it before I sold it. I ran it just short of 4k rounds before cleaning it and it still functioned fine. I sold it because the HK45 is simply superior in about every way to the XD45.

The XDm came out and I thought wow this might just be the perfect pistol. I bought one and liked it so much I bought another one at the factory while picking up a custom M1A I had built. I then took a 4 day hand gun course with the XDm (before I have taken similar courses with the HK45 and G17) and then shot the IL state IDPA with it. The following week I sold both of them.

I had over 30 XDm 9mm mags, holsters and the two pistols and lost a bit on getting out of the XDm.

In my opinion the XD/XDm does not do anything the G17 for example doesn't. There are more mags on the market, parts, holsters, sights etc for the Glock then there probably ever will be for the XD. I can also work on the Glock myself, thats a huge plus!

After shooting a couple of thousand rounds through the XDm I started to find some real issues. Issues that really did not have an easy fix. First off the magazines are crap. They may hold 19 rounds but you have to work on each mag to get them to work properly. Springfield put capacity over reliability. Nothing like loading a mag and at around 9 rounds the rounds will just fall out of the mag, and after about 15 get into the mag they tend to bind up. When doing tactical reload and malfunction drills the mags really showed how crappy they are.

Second big issue is you can not manipulate the slide unless the back strap safety is engaged. This is a problem if you have to do malfunction drills and have to rapidly manipulate the pistol. It can also be a problem if you have to work the slide and you are injured etc. The 1911 back strap safety really is not an issue since the slide can be manipulated with out engaging the safety.

I also found maybe one of my biggest complaints in the mag release. It is one of those things that you will not be able to see when handling it in the store or shooting at a range to slide lock. When the mag is loaded and you want to do a tactical reload which you have to do hundreds of times in 4 days of training or in IDPA matches the mag release will not easily depress. In fact you have to adjust your grip even further to get extra leverage and press very firmly to get the mag to release. This was the case on both of my pistols and all 30 mags. It was also the case of others running the same platform. The cause is the cut out in the front of the mag that the mag catch holds on to keeping the mag in the pistol. When the mag has rounds in it they are pushed down by the slide and the downward pressure pushes on the mag release causing it to have a stuck feeling. It almost felt like the mag button was stuck, had a bur or maybe even the frame was molded wrong. The fact is it is in the mag design.

The magazine is really the week point of the XDm platform. They shoot nice, have a nice grip, very accurate and an OK trigger. I still say the Glock trigger is better over all but the XD/XDm is not bad.

So I sold them and am done with XD pistols. In my opinion they are a solution to a problem that does not exist. There are other pistols on the market that are better designs and proven. For most shooters they will be happy with the XD line of pistols. I guess after enough training I have come to expect more and I run what works the way it should work.

I am a Springfield fan, I live a couple of hours from them and when ever I have stopped by the factory they are top notch and give great customer service! I just wish they had improved on a design rather then just try to copy one.

Any time you are not the lead dog the view never changes. I think firearm manufactures need to remember that. One big reason I am a big HK fan. They are built well and they have been a leader in weapon design. We owe them a big thanks for many of the modern weapon designs of today. That is something Springfield, S&W and many others can not say.

David

Cincinnatus
11-16-09, 02:38
I agree with you, Ditballs. You summed up the whole issue with the XD nicely, and for that reason, I am going out to get an HK45 for sure, and either the Glock 21 or the M&P 45 to supplement it for HD use. I like .45 since it is a readily available round. Of course, no round is more available in the entire world than 9mm, and so I will soon pick up a G19 to boot.
Thanks to everyone on this thread for the information. That is why I love this site, I learn something everyday to better myself and my knowledge of my favorite damn hobby in the whole world. I envy you guys out there who get PAID to talk guns, build, tinker, shoot, train like a rutting buck panting after a tawny doe in heat, and put more steel down range than a wagon load of shrapnel. :D
I had not shot either of my XDs extensively, but now I know better than to stake my life on them. Now I'll quote Jamie Foxx in the movie Jarhead: "I love this shit!" OORAH!

BLACK LION
11-16-09, 19:06
XD's.....why do you all hate them so much?



I know, I know. That was sarcasm, as in "lets change the subject". I didnt expect any response with info regarding that platform. As you already know, I started a separate thread for that one. ;)

Sorry if it came off like a hi-jacking...

Business_Casual
11-16-09, 20:23
Huh? I thought that he was repeating the name of the thread so that everyone would get back on topic - not change the subject.

:confused:

M_P

PS - I still hate XDs

wake.joe
11-17-09, 01:11
Alright, whatever. Good luck!

John_Wayne777
11-17-09, 08:39
I also see a couple links that show the XD to be a very reliable gun. But can anyone post a link to when they FAIL? A test? An article on why this PD doesn't like them? Anything? 90% of the XD owners I've talked to love them. Old, rebranded gun or not, the pistol performs. This thread is proof that there are a lot of people who like their XD's.


A lot of people like their Olympic AR's too. As I've said in other places, a lot of people never run their gear hard enough to discover the deficiencies of the platform. "My gun works great!" from someone who has fired 400 rounds in the life of the weapon is not as good of a basis for judgment as the individual who has put tens of thousands of rounds through multiple specimens of a particular platform.

"My gun works great!" from someone whose concept of "working" is 100 rounds on a sunny Sunday afternoon isn't quite in the same league as the judgment of someone who has put tens of thousands of rounds through the platform under various conditions.

The fact that it works for some people's needs doesn't necessarily make it a great platform. I've seen people who like some pretty awful pistols...but it worked for their needs because their assessment of their own needs were pretty low to begin with.

I'm getting such a horrible feeling of Deja Vu because I could have sworn I said basically the same thing earlier in the thread.




Police Departments don't use it: Maybe Police departments get such a deal, and aggressive marketing from Glock, that they don't have any interest? I wonder how aggressively SA even markets the gun to law enforcement in comparison to other manufacturers.


Or maybe police departments have tested the weapons and found that armorer level support is unacceptable.

Maybe in testing they've found that the magazines die easily and don't seem to be designed to stand up to long term use and abuse.

Maybe in testing they've found that the requirement to disengage the grip safety to do any manipulation with the weapon causes problems for officers trying to use the weapon under stress.

The idea that the XD doesn't have LE contracts because nobody at Springfield has thought of offering agencies a deal on the weapons is entertaining, but untrue. They've submitted guns for LE consideration and have generally been rejected because of some of the issues I've mentioned.

MULTIPLE people within this thread have posted issues that they've encountered with the XD...and DocGKR has said that the weapons have had considerable troubles in various LE tests. He's not guessing when he says that...and believe it or not every bit of worthwhile information isn't linked on the web for public consumption. PD's don't post PDF's detailing their firearms tests and the results from them online where everybody can get at them for a number of reasons.

...so I have a proposal for the rest of the thread:

Please refrain from any more posts that rehash the "My XD is great and I don't know where you bastards get off saying it isn't!" thing. It's beyond repetitive at this point. People are certainly welcome to share their personal experience with the XD, positive or negative, but avoid the repetitive arguments already dealt with earlier in the thread.

wake.joe
11-17-09, 09:08
Please refrain from any more posts that rehash the "My XD is great and I don't know where you bastards get off saying it isn't!" thing. It's beyond repetitive at this point. People are certainly welcome to share their personal experience with the XD, positive or negative, but avoid the repetitive arguments already dealt with earlier in the thread.

This was not my intention. I don't like the Ergonomics of the pistol. It's a bad design, as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe the XD is great, and I said that. But not because it's unreliable or a cheap toy.

But I've now seen two hard endurance tests that ended with all positives, but none that have failed. All I've asked for is links, nothing more...

Rider79
11-17-09, 09:27
A lot of people like their Olympic AR's too. As I've said in other places, a lot of people never run their gear hard enough to discover the deficiencies of the platform. "My gun works great!" from someone who has fired 400 rounds in the life of the weapon is not as good of a basis for judgment as the individual who has put tens of thousands of rounds through multiple specimens of a particular platform.

"My gun works great!" from someone whose concept of "working" is 100 rounds on a sunny Sunday afternoon isn't quite in the same league as the judgment of someone who has put tens of thousands of rounds through the platform under various conditions.

This is exactly what I was thinking. When people repeat these stories of friends/acquaintances who have an XD/Oly/DPMS etc. and think they're just the best they need to read Rob's thread on opinions: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307 which is what I thought of when I read that post.

When people make these statements to me, I always ask them, "Yes, they say its awesome, but how do they use it?" and when I explain what this means, they usually see my point.

sickeness
11-17-09, 21:52
Ok I'll bite.
John Wayne made some very good comments on the subject, I would like to add some of my own.

About a year ago I took a firearms training class with an outside agency, a very large Southern California Sheriff's Department. An Officer from a different department with a more open firearms policy showed up with an XD. The head armorer of said Sheriff's Dept explained to the class what he felt was wrong with the gun and the reasons why they do not allow their deputies to carry it for duty use. He said that when the XD was first released, he and the other department armorers took the course Springfield offered to servicing the guns. He said that basically the internals are unnecessarily complex and a nightmare to service. In addition he mentioned the issue of poor quality magazines that was already mentioned earlier in this thread.

The most important reason he stated was the malfunctions. Not the frequency of it, all guns will malfunction at some point, but rather the fact that many common XD malfunctions can not be cleared by the end user or even at the armorer level. Often when the XD jams, it jams in such a way that the whole gun needs to be physically sent back to Springfield to be fixed and unjammed. For law enforcement work, this is just plain unacceptable. Sure if you are a hobbyist shooter and enjoy plinking at the range, its not as big of a deal if your gun needs to be sent back to Springfield and serviced by their "great" customer service. But if you are in a gunfight or if your duty weapon jams at the range and you need to have it ready for your next shift, that is simply unacceptable.

As far as why the XD is so popular, the answer to that one is quite simple. Back when the XD was first introduced at a somewhat reasonable pricepoint of around $400, Springfield used to pay "bounties" to gunstores and gunstore employees for each pistol they sold. That alone made the store and employees more likely to push the gun to serve their own interests. I have seen it several times personally while at gunstores: guy comes in looking to buy a glock and the employee tells him "get a XD instead, it is made by SPRINGFIELD and it has more safeties and it is just as good of a gun, plus it comes with a FREE holster and magazine pouches". Why would they want to push Glock or other competitor guns when they can make a larger profit margin on XDs? Now that they are more common and popular Springfield jacks up the price by an additional $100 and makes a killing.

Another Springfield marketing gimmick at its best. Take a pistol that used to sell for $300, put your name/logo on it and jack it up by $100, pay $50 extra to the place that sells it, and pocket the $50 difference. Also advertise the hell out of it in guns n' ammo magazine. Can't say I blame them though, its easy money and I doubt they would actually make more profit by spending their money on engineering guns that don't break instead of advertising.

BLACK LION
11-18-09, 13:52
Ok I'll bite.
John Wayne made some very good comments on the subject, I would like to add some of my own.

About a year ago I took a firearms training class with an outside agency, a very large Southern California Sheriff's Department. An Officer from a different department with a more open firearms policy showed up with an XD. The head armorer of said Sheriff's Dept explained to the class what he felt was wrong with the gun and the reasons why they do not allow their deputies to carry it for duty use. He said that when the XD was first released, he and the other department armorers took the course Springfield offered to servicing the guns. He said that basically the internals are unnecessarily complex and a nightmare to service. In addition he mentioned the issue of poor quality magazines that was already mentioned earlier in this thread.

The most important reason he stated was the malfunctions. Not the frequency of it, all guns will malfunction at some point, but rather the fact that many common XD malfunctions can not be cleared by the end user or even at the armorer level. Often when the XD jams, it jams in such a way that the whole gun needs to be physically sent back to Springfield to be fixed and unjammed. For law enforcement work, this is just plain unacceptable. Sure if you are a hobbyist shooter and enjoy plinking at the range, its not as big of a deal if your gun needs to be sent back to Springfield and serviced by their "great" customer service. But if you are in a gunfight or if your duty weapon jams at the range and you need to have it ready for your next shift, that is simply unacceptable.

As far as why the XD is so popular, the answer to that one is quite simple. Back when the XD was first introduced at a somewhat reasonable pricepoint of around $400, Springfield used to pay "bounties" to gunstores and gunstore employees for each pistol they sold. That alone made the store and employees more likely to push the gun to serve their own interests. I have seen it several times personally while at gunstores: guy comes in looking to buy a glock and the employee tells him "get a XD instead, it is made by SPRINGFIELD and it has more safeties and it is just as good of a gun, plus it comes with a FREE holster and magazine pouches". Why would they want to push Glock or other competitor guns when they can make a larger profit margin on XDs? Now that they are more common and popular Springfield jacks up the price by an additional $100 and makes a killing.

Another Springfield marketing gimmick at its best. Take a pistol that used to sell for $300, put your name/logo on it and jack it up by $100, pay $50 extra to the place that sells it, and pocket the $50 difference. Also advertise the hell out of it in guns n' ammo magazine. Can't say I blame them though, its easy money and I doubt they would actually make more profit by spending their money on engineering guns that don't break instead of advertising.


Now THAT makes more sense to me than anything else I have read regarding the "cons" of the XD...

Littlelebowski
12-25-09, 10:53
I owned an XD9 for 6000 rounds when it first came out. I was convinced it was an improved Glock, but alas, it simply was not serviceable and I quickly ditched it for a 17.

(Sadly, the same thing is happening with my M&P9... :()

What's wrong with your M&P 9, Vinh?

milosz
12-25-09, 12:44
My father recently got a Custom Shop XDM40 (also has an XDM9 and an XD45) - I've never particularly cared for the XD platform (high bore-axis, doesn't fit me as well as a Glock or M&P), but I was surprised at how soft-shooting the CS XD40 was. Definitely less recoil than a G22 or M&P40, despite the bore axis.

YATYAS
01-13-10, 22:02
The vast majority of XD owners fall into this category because the vast majority of firearms owners are in this category. There is nothing incorrect about bkb0000's assumption.

You have to realize this forum is the elite of the elite. The average gun owner knows nothing about what goes on here or in other serious circles.

Put it this way, when I walk into Cabelas, Scheels, or just an average gun store, I am lucky to find one gun in there I am remotely interested in. I already own the guns in there or they are bubba guns that suck and do nothing for me. Most guns fall into the later category.

The average gun owner goes into these places and lusts for all that stuff in there.

Could not agree more! I cant help stopping at the gun counter on a trip to Cabella's or Bass Pro but, everything there is boring and overpriced BIG TIME!

BTW... I'm an XD owner!

LMTRocks
01-14-10, 01:01
I HATE my XD9 service. All it does is eat ammo and sh*t brass. The takedown is easier to me than a Block[perfection]. I can't stand that pesky takedown mechanism on the Block...my hands are too big. And the slide release is just the right size, on the XD. When I worked at a gun store everytime I'd sell a G19 I'd always get someone asking me if I could make the slide release better. We kept a sh*t ton of those things in the shop. And 3.5lb disconnectors.

Jake0331
01-14-10, 05:50
I nearly had an aneurism trying to change mags with an XD45. It shot OK, but I'll never own a pistol that requires me to sweat to depress the mag release. I'll stick with my HK45C backed up by a G36.

Business_Casual
01-14-10, 07:08
I HATE my XD9 service. All it does is eat ammo and sh*t brass. The takedown is easier to me than a Block[perfection]. I can't stand that pesky takedown mechanism on the Block...my hands are too big. And the slide release is just the right size, on the XD. When I worked at a gun store everytime I'd sell a G19 I'd always get someone asking me if I could make the slide release better. We kept a sh*t ton of those things in the shop. And 3.5lb disconnectors.

Your post has awesome content and the histronics have changed my mind! I am now an XD convert. Does anyone want to buy my [wipes tear] Block! Ha ha! Oh, you sir are a foil indeed!

M_P

HES
01-14-10, 10:49
I nearly had an aneurism trying to change mags with an XD45. It shot OK, but I'll never own a pistol that requires me to sweat to depress the mag release. I'll stick with my HK45C backed up by a G36.
and that is one of the reasons why I dumped my XM(m) in .40 as well. Well that, plus it loved to have FTEs and I didn't feel like using a hydraulic press to change the back straps.

decodeddiesel
01-14-10, 11:32
Your post has awesome content and the histronics have changed my mind! I am now an XD convert. Does anyone want to buy my [wipes tear] Block! Ha ha! Oh, you sir are a foil indeed!

M_P

Stewie, is that you? :D

Business_Casual
01-14-10, 11:50
A bit over the top, then?

M_P

decodeddiesel
01-14-10, 11:53
A bit over the top, then?

M_P

Not to me, I LOL'd.

BLACK LION
01-14-10, 13:59
Basically, who ****in cares. I can find an imperfection in any platform out there but when there is work to be done, you put that shit aside, pick up the tool and use it the best you can. I shot a .32 acp 1903 on Sunday better than I shot an M9 same day and there were so many things about the M9 that I liked and so many things about the 1903 that I despised... Regardless, I set my bias aside, picked up the tool and made successful right and left handed hits back to back on steel at cqc distance. Suprisingly I was more "efficient" and "consistent" with the 1903 over the M9 despite all that I didnt like about it.
Bottom line, if I need to wack something and there is a hammer lying on the ground I am not going to turn my nose up to it because its not brand X or brand Y or becuase I dont like that particular one becuase of this or that... that is ghey to me.

I have owned an XD since the .45 was released. They have always been a bitch to come by but I was able to get a service model first. I dealt with its imperfections and shot the shyt out of it . I became proficient enough to realize I wanted the 5" tactical instead but those are/were impossible to come by. I was able to secure one through a pawn shop straight from springfield when no one else could. It came in a few mos and I became one of the few who were able to get one here in San Diego county and the surrounding area. Fast forward to now and they(5" .45 tac) are more impossible to come by than ever before. No one can get one to save thier life , not even springfield. So, they must be going somewhere. I was given second hand intel from a guy who had a conversation with an "elite marine" that said XD .45s are one of the platforms getting use "over there"... Someone is getting them and using them and causing the in-availability....
People hate what they are not willing to deal with and often times life throws shyt at us that dictates the tool and does not allow for options or preferences...
I sleep well at night knowing that I can utilize any tool I can get my hands on to get the job done... My mind and body is the real weapon and as long as I can think and move I am dangerous regardless of what snap on devices are attached to me...
One mind, one body, any tool....





GODspeed

the_fallguy
01-14-10, 14:09
.....Bottom line, if I need to wack something and there is a hammer lying on the ground I am not going to turn my nose up to it because its not brand X or brand Y or becuase I dont like that particular one becuase of this or that... .

Estwing has better ergonomics than that Stanley crap.....



























'Sorry, but I had to :) . Seriously, though, I get your point. Sometimes we argue over the least important stuff. Those that shoot high volume will get the ins and outs of whatever platform they shoot in a short time. Those that don't will be OK with about anything that is decent quality. Most of us would be better off discussing tactics over tools in any case.

BLACK LION
01-14-10, 14:42
Estwing has better ergonomics than that Stanley crap.....






















'Sorry, but I had to :) . Seriously, though, I get your point. Sometimes we argue over the least important stuff. Those that shoot high volume will get the ins and outs of whatever platform they shoot in a short time. Those that don't will be OK with about anything that is decent quality. Most of us would be better off discussing tactics over tools in any case.

I like your sense of humor FG, you picked up on that one well.
Stanley sux, its all about Snap On...;)

I agree sincerely with you that we should be discussing tactics over tools because in the end its all about the mind and body...all that time spent playing ring around the rosies whith "this platform is this" and "that platform is that" we are essentially wasting precious time that could be spent learining how to mitigate a threat regardless of the tools on tap... who knows, one of us could encounter a blade wielding meth head after we log off the computer and go our merry way.

Dont get me wrong, there is good info that comes out of positive and negative experience with different platforms but at the same time its thier problem with thier equipment... thier problems may not be my problems or your problems and to tailor to someone elses problems becuase we share a common bond thru the same equipment is enabling a defeatist attitiude. JMHO.
I hated my XD enough to buy an AR15, Benelli 12ga and a USP .45(lets not mention all the other platforms that I have bought and sold since)but I do not hate it enough to convince myself to replace it with something "better"....
I have said before that I will bet my life on my XD, not becuase the gun gives me superhuman power but becuase I am confident in my abilities as a butt naked thinking and moving human...pistol or no pistol.

Pathfinder Ops
01-14-10, 15:46
Actually never mind...I retract my observation.

tracker722
01-14-10, 15:56
My only addition to this thread is "When did Glock put a slide release on their pistols?" I missed that at the last armorers recert class and haven't gotten any notices from them. Guess they don't love me anymore.:(

harrydog
01-14-10, 16:22
I agree sincerely with you that we should be discussing tactics over tools because in the end its all about the mind and body...all that time spent playing ring around the rosies whith "this platform is this" and "that platform is that" we are essentially wasting precious time that could be spent learining how to mitigate a threat regardless of the tools on tap... who knows, one of us could encounter a blade wielding meth head after we log off the computer and go our merry way.

Dont get me wrong, there is good info that comes out of positive and negative experience with different platforms but at the same time its thier problem with thier equipment... thier problems may not be my problems or your problems and to tailor to someone elses problems becuase we share a common bond thru the same equipment is enabling a defeatist attitiude. JMHO.
I hated my XD enough to buy an AR15, Benelli 12ga and a USP .45(lets not mention all the other platforms that I have bought and sold since)but I do not hate it enough to convince myself to replace it with something "better"....
I have said before that I will bet my life on my XD, not becuase the gun gives me superhuman power but becuase I am confident in my abilities as a butt naked thinking and moving human...pistol or no pistol.

Come on...you're really counting on learning how to mitigate a threat based on what you read in an internet forum? That's funny. Or maybe scary.
Internet forums are for discussing things that interest the people on those forums. Whether or not you want to admit it, it's really nothing more than a form of entertainment. Many people enjoy discussing the merits of one brand of gun over another.
You can always start another thread to discuss how to mitigate a threat regardless of the tools on tap.

bkb0000
01-14-10, 17:18
Come on...you're really counting on learning how to mitigate a threat based on what you read in an internet forum? That's funny. Or maybe scary.
Internet forums are for discussing things that interest the people on those forums. Whether or not you want to admit it, it's really nothing more than a form of entertainment. Many people enjoy discussing the merits of one brand of gun over another.
You can always start another thread to discuss how to mitigate a threat regardless of the tools on tap.

dude.. if you're NOT here to better your ability to gunfight, then you dont belong here.

nobody thinks they're "going to learn how" to gunfight on an internet forum- that isn't what this is about.. its about simply discussing the finer points of gunfighting, tactics, experiences, etc- discussion that brings perspective to the group and makes us all think about things we might not have otherwise considered. shared knowledge- that's the purpose of a knowledge base, which is what m4c is. entertainment we get from it is a bonus- not the other way around.

and if you'd look around, you'd quickly realize all this- there are plenty of threads specifically on gunfighting, rather than hardware. i suggest you read more.

spamsammich
01-14-10, 17:53
I nearly had an aneurism trying to change mags with an XD45. It shot OK, but I'll never own a pistol that requires me to sweat to depress the mag release. I'll stick with my HK45C backed up by a G36.

I got a chance to shoot an XD compact 9 and noticed the really stiff mag release. I don't think I really noticed it on the XDm or XDs I've shot, but with the compact it was unacceptable. It was by far the worst mag release I've ever experienced on a pistol. :eek: I may not be a hulk of a man, but I'm no wilting daisy, and I couldn't see anyone changing mags proficiently under stress. Even the owner of the gun, who claimed to love it, complained loudly about the mag release. No thanks.

BLACK LION
01-14-10, 19:39
bkb000... You are right on both ends and I agree. I dont want to sound like I am running a double standard becuase I do appreciate threads like this for what they are... Lord knows the feedback I got here solidified my recent decision to purchase a USP .45 F and it has been everything you all said it would be...

I also appreciate your second reply enough that I dont think I need to even respond to harrys comment. However I will say that I am here to advance in whatever way I can... This place is a portal to some of the most elite and a valuable tool to those of us that want to be "better" than our enemies. The only one that can teach you is you, becuase it is up to you to accept what you dont know and learn from it... There are allot of BTDT guys here that I can learn from. Those that have the experience and made the mistakes and it behooves me to take advantage of that.
****in a its the errornet and it is what it is... BUT, tell me I cant ask Kyle Defoor , Travis Haley or Todd G or FTS(etc etc)a straight up question directly and get a straight up answer... ON THE NET....but straight from the ****ing horses mouth...





So anyway, the mag release is kinda retarded at first until you press it enough then it gets fairly easy to depress... If you dont press right and left equally, the right will get easier and the left will seem harder to press. Also, it takes a lil more force to press regardless if the mag is full and you try to dump it.
Also, I have had the same 5 factory mags for over 3 years and they have gone thru 2 xds without fail. In fact, I have only wiped them down once and have had no problems through 5k plus rounds.

harrydog
01-14-10, 20:22
dude.. if you're NOT here to better your ability to gunfight, then you dont belong here.

nobody thinks they're "going to learn how" to gunfight on an internet forum- that isn't what this is about.. its about simply discussing the finer points of gunfighting, tactics, experiences, etc- discussion that brings perspective to the group and makes us all think about things we might not have otherwise considered. shared knowledge- that's the purpose of a knowledge base, which is what m4c is. entertainment we get from it is a bonus- not the other way around.

and if you'd look around, you'd quickly realize all this- there are plenty of threads specifically on gunfighting, rather than hardware. i suggest you read more.
Dude... If there are already plenty of threads specifically on gunfighting rather than hardware, then why say that this thread, which is discussing hardware, is a waste of time? I didn't realize that you shouldn't have threads in this forum discussing hardware. Isn't this particular forum titled "Handguns"? That sounds like hardware to me.
I admit that I shouldn't have said that internet forums are nothing more than a form of entertainment. Of course some things can be learned. But you have to be very, very careful as to what advice you choose to follow because it is not all good advice. There are all kinds of people who frequent internet forums and not all are what they portray themselves to be.
There is no substitute for hands on learning when it comes to self defense whether that be with or without a weapon.
I still maintain that most internet forums are primarily a form of entertainment.

varoadking
01-14-10, 20:24
dude.. if you're NOT here to better your ability to gunfight, then you dont belong here.

I joined the forum for the free shit being given away...

I'm still waiting, so maybe you're right...

harrydog
01-14-10, 20:39
I joined the forum for the free shit being given away...

I'm still waiting, so maybe you're right...
That was good :D

bkb0000
01-14-10, 20:44
Dude... If there are already plenty of threads specifically on gunfighting rather than hardware, then why say that this thread, which is discussing hardware, is a waste of time? I didn't realize that you shouldn't have threads in this forum discussing hardware. Isn't this particular forum titled "Handguns"? That sounds like hardware to me.

i dont understand any of the above


I admit that I shouldn't have said that internet forums are nothing more than a form of entertainment. Of course some things can be learned. But you have to be very, very careful as to what advice you choose to follow because it is not all good advice. There are all kinds of people who frequent internet forums and not all are what they portray themselves to be.
There is no substitute for hands on learning when it comes to self defense whether that be with or without a weapon.
I still maintain that most internet forums are primarily a form of entertainment.

welcome to m4carbine.net- you'll find this board is a lot different from just about every other board on the internet. posts here are reviewed by people who actually have a clue about gun-fighting, because that's what they've done or currently do for a living. most discussion on gunfighting is, or ends up being, in the form of professionals or professional-quality people debating the merits of one tactic/detail/technique or another... not a bunch of yahoos who don't have any perspective. it happens, naturally, but is usually shut down pretty ****in quick.

if at any point you disagree with something being said, then speak up- nobody here is allowed to pontificate bullshit they cant back up.

again- i really suggest you do some reading around here... all these things will be evident.

Business_Casual
01-14-10, 20:50
Dude... If there are already plenty of threads specifically on gunfighting rather than hardware, then why say that this thread, which is discussing hardware, is a waste of time? I didn't realize that you shouldn't have threads in this forum discussing hardware. Isn't this particular forum titled "Handguns"? That sounds like hardware to me.

I agree, and I think that makes logical sense.


I admit that I shouldn't have said that internet forums are nothing more than a form of entertainment. Of course some things can be learned. But you have to be very, very careful as to what advice you choose to follow because it is not all good advice. There are all kinds of people who frequent internet forums and not all are what they portray themselves to be.
There is no substitute for hands on learning when it comes to self defense whether that be with or without a weapon.
I still maintain that most internet forums are primarily a form of entertainment.

That is very true. Less so, I think, of M4Carbine but still relatively true. There is very little practical skill to be gained from the interwebs. But we'd all have lead poisoning if we shot as much as we surf...

M_P

John_Wayne777
01-14-10, 22:11
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540

I challenge anyone to read that thread and claim it is entertainment.

I've read some things on this forum that have changed the way I think about a lot of things. Yes, there are forums out there full of chowderheads...but M4Carbine strives to be better than that. The mods and staff are carefully chosen to try and maintain the delicate balance between quality information that armed professionals can rely on and a collegial environment where seekers of knowledge can learn all they care to learn.

The input of a number of Industry Professionals on this site can shed critical light on important issues. The input of our Subject Matter Experts...individuals who have been to hell and back to earn that title...is invaluable.

And we're 100% positive they are who they say they are. Lots of other regular contributors here have a lot to offer even if they don't have an SME title. It's been my experience that knowledge and experience are easily visible, especially on forums. People who know what they are talking about tend to be pretty easy to spot in a sea full of posers.

Yes, we do try to have a little fun around here...but speaking personally I'm here for the information. It's why I joined this site and why I come back to the site regularly. I'm happy to help try and keep the peace here as a moderator because I believe in what the site is about.

As for hardware vs. software...

Software is always more important. But you know what? Hardware matters. Get around any group of true warriors (and please note that I use the term "warrior" very carefully about a very select group of individuals) and discussions about guns and gear...the tools of the trade...abound.

BLACK LION
01-15-10, 10:42
BTW... Harry, I said "who ****in cares" ... I never said threads like this or discussing "hardware" in general was useless but I think this particular dead horse has been kicked enough. I said I would rather discuss tactis over tools and what I meant by that is there are universal principles that apply to everyone when it comes to being a "tactician" and less when it comes to peoples personal preference what tools they use. I prefer the how over the what but thats just me.

BLACK LION
01-15-10, 10:45
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540

I challenge anyone to read that thread and claim it is entertainment.

I've read some things on this forum that have changed the way I think about a lot of things. Yes, there are forums out there full of chowderheads...but M4Carbine strives to be better than that. The mods and staff are carefully chosen to try and maintain the delicate balance between quality information that armed professionals can rely on and a collegial environment where seekers of knowledge can learn all they care to learn.

The input of a number of Industry Professionals on this site can shed critical light on important issues. The input of our Subject Matter Experts...individuals who have been to hell and back to earn that title...is invaluable.

And we're 100% positive they are who they say they are. Lots of other regular contributors here have a lot to offer even if they don't have an SME title. It's been my experience that knowledge and experience are easily visible, especially on forums. People who know what they are talking about tend to be pretty easy to spot in a sea full of posers.

Yes, we do try to have a little fun around here...but speaking personally I'm here for the information. It's why I joined this site and why I come back to the site regularly. I'm happy to help try and keep the peace here as a moderator because I believe in what the site is about.

As for hardware vs. software...

Software is always more important. But you know what? Hardware matters. Get around any group of true warriors (and please note that I use the term "warrior" very carefully about a very select group of individuals) and discussions about guns and gear...the tools of the trade...abound.

Excellent post JW

harrydog
01-15-10, 11:11
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540

I challenge anyone to read that thread and claim it is entertainment.

I've read some things on this forum that have changed the way I think about a lot of things. Yes, there are forums out there full of chowderheads...but M4Carbine strives to be better than that. The mods and staff are carefully chosen to try and maintain the delicate balance between quality information that armed professionals can rely on and a collegial environment where seekers of knowledge can learn all they care to learn.

The input of a number of Industry Professionals on this site can shed critical light on important issues. The input of our Subject Matter Experts...individuals who have been to hell and back to earn that title...is invaluable.

And we're 100% positive they are who they say they are. Lots of other regular contributors here have a lot to offer even if they don't have an SME title. It's been my experience that knowledge and experience are easily visible, especially on forums. People who know what they are talking about tend to be pretty easy to spot in a sea full of posers.

Yes, we do try to have a little fun around here...but speaking personally I'm here for the information. It's why I joined this site and why I come back to the site regularly. I'm happy to help try and keep the peace here as a moderator because I believe in what the site is about.

As for hardware vs. software...

Software is always more important. But you know what? Hardware matters. Get around any group of true warriors (and please note that I use the term "warrior" very carefully about a very select group of individuals) and discussions about guns and gear...the tools of the trade...abound.

Obviously there is good information available on this site. I agree it is better than most. But threads like the one you referenced do not make up the majority of the threads here. Just like the majority of people who frequent this site are not professional "warriors" or experts on the subject matter being discussed. Much of it is still essentially entertainment.
One thing I will repeat though. This site is definitely better than most and I'm not saying by any mean that it is a waste of time. People come here because they enjoy reading about or discussing things related to training, tactics, weapons, etc. Enjoyment equals entertainment. Some things can be learned but nothing can replace actual hands on training and instruction.

BLACK LION
01-15-10, 13:07
It may weigh heavier on the entertainment side when someone spends more time "lurking" and less time "contributing"...
The only "entertainment" I get is when someone gets thier "balls busted", myself included.
"TOS" may be more entertaining becuase of the vast troll population and a large scale lack of "accountability" but places like this and LF are more educational than anything. At least for me they are. On top of that, accountability is everything here and there(like JW said) and if someone is FUBAR they will be required to un-**** themselves or "pay the piper". At least here there is no "probation" or "purgatory"...

harrydog
01-15-10, 17:38
I've just discovered that a good part of the entertainment value for me are the people who obviously take themselves far too seriously and like to inflate their egos in an online forum.
I'm finished with this thread. Have the last word if you want it. This whole discussion has become pointless. My opinions are not going to change and neither are yours. You apparently come here to pontificate. That's fine. I come here because I'm interested in reading about some of the subject matter that is discussed. That should also be fine, but I'm not so sure now.

the_fallguy
01-15-10, 20:19
I've just discovered that a good part of the entertainment value for me are the people who obviously take themselves far too seriously and like to inflate their egos in an online forum.
I'm finished with this thread. Have the last word if you want it. This whole discussion has become pointless. My opinions are not going to change and neither are yours. You apparently come here to pontificate. That's fine. I come here because I'm interested in reading about some of the subject matter that is discussed. That should also be fine, but I'm not so sure now.

It looks like you are the one with ego invested here, sir. You make a comment not pertinent to the subject matter, and then you get upset and choose to abandon the discussion when you face valid opposition.

You shouldn't assume that just because you are here for the purpose of entertainment, others have the same motives or intentions. I personally come here to educate myself, and I have learned very much from this forum, and from the internet in general. It certainly isn't a substitute for first hand experience, but it is an invaluable source of information from people that I would otherwise not be able to converse with. You just have to use some discernment and consider the source of the information as you go (just like in every other facet of life).

BLACK LION
01-16-10, 12:02
I've just discovered that a good part of the entertainment value for me are the people who obviously take themselves far too seriously and like to inflate their egos in an online forum.
I'm finished with this thread. Have the last word if you want it. This whole discussion has become pointless. My opinions are not going to change and neither are yours. You apparently come here to pontificate. That's fine. I come here because I'm interested in reading about some of the subject matter that is discussed. That should also be fine, but I'm not so sure now.

I am sorry but I thought it was you that swerved into my lane. I merely responded to stimulus provided by you. I was speaking in general above and if you found something in there to cuddle up with and make a personal affair out of then thats your luggage my friend.
I dont care to "have the last word" or indulge in any other such childish nonsense. I am also not pontificating anything, I am passionate about training and being an efficient combatant in anyway I can. I have enough humility to accept the things I dont know and dont understand and get them corrected by those that do. If I can help someone in return that is all gravy.
I disagree that my opinions wont change becuase M4C and LF both have a knack for changing peoples opinions for them wether they like it or not. Changes are a part of growth and opinions can be as fickle as 100 year old knee caps.
I will gladly accept change over opinion any day.




It looks like you are the one with ego invested here, sir. You make a comment not pertinent to the subject matter, and then you get upset and choose to abandon the discussion when you face valid opposition.

You shouldn't assume that just because you are here for the purpose of entertainment, others have the same motives or intentions. I personally come here to educate myself, and I have learned very much from this forum, and from the internet in general. It certainly isn't a substitute for first hand experience, but it is an invaluable source of information from people that I would otherwise not be able to converse with. You just have to use some discernment and consider the source of the information as you go (just like in every other facet of life).

That summed things up quite nicely.

rifleman2000
03-23-10, 08:45
You have to realize this forum is the elite of the elite.

I laughed.

nexgen91
03-25-10, 23:42
I like my XD, I got a compact 45, mainly because Glock does not offer a compact size 45 only a full size, compact, and slimline compact. I don't like full size pistols for CCW and the accuracy fails to much on sub-compacts. I am happy with my XD and would buy another in a heartbeat, of course I like my Glock 19 to and if they would have made a 45 in a compact model I would have probably purchased another Glock instead. I have heard nothing but good things about the XD, and this is the first negative talk about it I have ever stumbled across. Just my .02

the_fallguy
03-26-10, 01:32
....I like my Glock 19 to and if they would have made a 45 in a compact model I would have probably purchased another Glock instead....

Have you actually handled the Glock 30 or compared it closely to your 19? It is quite close dimensionally to the Glock 19, the major difference being the slightly shorter grip (around 3/8" shorter with the mags installed in both models). I would venture a guess that the 30SF is even closer still. (On a separate but somewhat relevant note, the M&P 45 Compact is extremely close to the Glock 19 in size.)

bkb0000
03-26-10, 03:14
this thread is way worse than any zombie movie.. even multiple headshots wont put it down

BLACK LION
03-26-10, 10:47
this thread is way worse than any zombie movie.. even multiple headshots wont put it down


AHAHAHAAHAHHAHHAHHHAHHAHHAHAHAH

Jay Cunningham
03-26-10, 10:53
this thread is way worse than any zombie movie.. even multiple headshots wont put it down

But I will.