View Full Version : Army unveils new cammo
wild_wild_wes
09-15-09, 23:37
UCP-Delta:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=1325&pictureid=16229
UCP-Delta: with IOTV in UCP
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=1325&pictureid=16230
Natick has been busy developing several new variants of UCP which retain the base pattern but replace individual colors. It has recently been revealed by Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, PEO-Soldier that the new “UCP-Delta” which integrates Coyote Brown into the pattern along with Multicam will be evaluated in Afghanistan beginning in October. In response to the Congressional directive to field a new camo pattern for operations in Afghanistan two Battalions worth of uniforms will be tested.
What do you guys think?
wow... they totally bit off my shits. i expect royalties.
looks a hell of a lot better than ACU, thats for sure. i'd like to see it in some environments... a guy can only guess against black.
dude is missing some important body parts.
Waste of money. We need to standardize all services to something that we already have available in mass production or capable of mass production, i.e. MARPAT minus black, Multicam... This insanity needs to stop. Clean out the military brass along with the politicians.
Chalk this up along with the Army issuing railed M4s w/ 203s to females. Misallocation of funds.
Microwvbleturtle
09-16-09, 01:28
It looks rather easy to produce.
Step 1: Take ACUs that are currently available.
Step 2: Liberally apply human and/or animal feces to surface of ACUs. Reapply when necessary.
All sarcasm aside, it's actually nice to see big Army taking ideas from several different combat-proven designs (CB from MARPAT and elements of Multicam) and puting them together. With a black backdrop the pattern looks somewhat comical. With an Afghan mountain backdrop, the pattern may look somewhat, well, invisible.
My first instinct was to jump on the bandwagon and, just as Jake did, question why the Army didn't go with a uniform that already had the ability to be mass produced. I then remembered why we're calling for a uniform change in the first place - to find a form of camo that performs well in theatre. The ACU pattern is inferior and quite often does nothing to mask troop movements throughout the terrain. If UCP-D proves to be more effective then Multicam then great, wind up the textile mills and get to work. If Multicam proves to be more effective then we've already got the initial production rates needed.
I'll wait to hear back from the guys in theatre before I make my final decision.
A different uniform every couple years is irresponsible leadership in the military and has cost ridiculous amounts of money that could go towards armor or munitions. This is really no different than the production of the F-22, the issuing of railed M16s in BASIC TRAINING(?!?!?!?!?!), and the development of video games to train on; things ranging from the monetary excessive to the downright stupid. Right now, the best solution is a cheap solution. Tommy Hilfiger camo isn't going to win this war, but better leadership certainly will help.
Knowing how the Army likes to make everything in ACU pattern all the way down to the gnat's ass, an entire outfitting of the troops is going to cost a shit-ton of money. As people who employ the decision makers, we shouldn't go along with everything the Army wants to buy or change, or waste.
This all started by the Marine Corps putting the EGA all over MARPAT. Otherwise, this whole thing would likely be dealt with. Nonsense.
I'm not a camo expert, just so we get that out of the way, but, I do wear ACU's everyday at work, and don't see 1/2 the issues everyone else see's.
-Whether or not they picked the right camo, I think the Army is on the right track with a universal camo.
With the little readin I've done on gear over the years, their was a significant problem with logistics during WW2, when they had a different uniform for everything, and everywhere, that's a waste. This is why, you see pics of Paratroopers, late in the war, w/o Jump jackets and pants. (and you can thank them, for pockets on the sleeves).
During VN, there was an uproar among the troops for camo uniforms, not unlike today. The Army conducted a study, and found, unsurprisingly, that while certain camo worked great in specific area's, no camo worked good in all area's. OD, however, worked reasonably well, in all area's.
A former co-worker of mine, was with the 173d ABN in VN, while his comments on the M16a1 and 5.56, are great, he also commented about loading a UH-1 in the morning and being airlifted to a firefight, when that was done, they were airlifted to another, and another, spending the day like that.
When I was deployed to Desert Shield/Storm, I was on an 6 hr recall, we were prepared to jump in, wearing woodland's, and that was fine, since that was put on hold, for diplomatic reasons, we turned in our woodlands, and received deserts, what a waste, nothing fit correctly, we only got 2 uniforms, if we were lucky, many only got one, etc. etc.
Taking the two above examples, I would much rather have a single "universal" uniform, and be done with it, rather then trying to match the environment exactly, unless you are a very well trained sniper/LSRD/ type, its probably not gonna happen anyway, or be worth the effort.
I very much think that MARPAT is NOT the answer. To my eye, it seems little more then woodland or DCU in a fancy pattern. And, you are still left with two uniforms.
From what I've seen/read, the Army is also trying to eliminate all the different "dress" uniforms, another good move. Class "A", "B", with and w/o awards, ties, short sleeve, long sleeve, formal, dress blue, etc etc. Screw all that, you are either in a work/combat uniform, or you are not. The Army, by having everyone wear the ACU's, is attempting to remind the non trigger pullers, that we are at war, and their mission is an important part of it.
Which brings me to this....
Why is it a waste to have a Soldier train with a weapon, in basic, that is as close to what he will be issued at his unit?
Why is it a waste to have non combat arms MOS's be issued a capable weapon?
Isn't this where the term asymmetric warfare came from, didn't we learn a lot of things from the Jessica Lynch incident, the most important one, that ever Soldier may end up in a gunfight?
There are numerous instances in history when "non combat" MOS's had to fight, having every Soldier in your command with the ability to generate combat power is a good thing.
A conversation with a friend of mine, who recently retired as a 1sgt, and posts here on occasion, sheds some light on all this..
He states the cooks, the F'in cooks, in his BN, had M4's with Aimpoints, SureFires, and PEQ's on them. That is some serious S**t right there. Who cares what my uniform looks like.
I've heard similar statements from other Soldiers, while they may not be to thrilled with the ACU, they do have decked out M4's, when they see other Soldiers, or services, still carrying A2's, with a scope, they aren't to worried about it.
The Marines did start all this, and while their initiative should be commended, they should have gotten all service's on board, first, and perhaps alot of this could have been avoided.
Of course a lot of it could have been avoided, if we just re-arranged the pockets on a Woodland BDU's, and issued tan rough out boots(which were trialed in the early 80's).
Bob
RogerinTPA
09-16-09, 18:46
You need a coat hanger for that abortion.:eek: I hope its a "stop gap" move. They need to pull all of the Generals, out of the equation and get "Trigger pullers" in the mix. They also need to get over the fact that there is no one camo solution. They've wasted more money on this concept, than simply adding Multicam to the inventory. As someone stated, USMC woodland, minus the black, would be the most cost effective and expedient quick fix.
The Marines did start all this, and while their initiative should be commended, they should have gotten all service's on board, first, and perhaps alot of this could have been avoided.
Absolutely. I was conveying the same point earlier. They F'd up by "copyrighting" it with the EGA in the pattern. All services could have or should have joined up.
I very much think that MARPAT is NOT the answer. To my eye, it seems little more then woodland or DCU in a fancy pattern. And, you are still left with two uniforms.
MARPAT, ACU, and CADPAT all are the same pattern, but different colors. MARPAT color scheme is not ideal, but Desert MARPAT is pretty good. If black in MARPAT were replaced with another drab earth color, then it would be the cat's ass. I feel multicam is much better suited, but does anyone have info regarding why a digital pattern was picked over color blotches? Could it be for a possible benefit to mix with pixelated NVGs better? I don't know - only asking. I agree with you that a universal pattern is the way to go; much more economically and practically efficient.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/jake8674/camocomparison.jpg
Regarding M16A4s in Basic - It is no different than an A2 in function. A2s are already available, and they can be trashed as much as possible for much less cost. Teach a fighter to shoot with the iron sights in Basic - they're only there a short period of time. They learn the optics (which are too expensive to be abused in formative training) at infantry school or in their unit. This issue is much more debatable than a million uniform changes, though, and I can understand your point.
Regarding the 507th Maintenance Company with Jessica Lynch - If they'd cleaned their weapons, known how to read a GPS and a map, followed logistical procedures, and not gone back through a kill zone after entering one, they'd all be alive. Having 203s or any other supplementary weapons would not have helped them. Had they known soldiering, as their profession indicates they should, we wouldn't be discussing this.
507th Maintenance Co. After Action Report
http://www.sftt.org/PDF/article07102003a.pdf
It looks rather easy to produce.
Step 1: Take ACUs that are currently available.
Step 2: Liberally apply human and/or animal feces to surface of ACUs. Reapply when necessary.
LOL. That was my initial reaction as well.
Looks kinda "German". Looks decent. What happened to Desert All Over Brush?
wild_wild_wes
09-18-09, 04:06
Indeed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19823845/Photosimulation-Camouflage-Detection-Test
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/cammotest1.jpg
Looks kinda "German". Looks decent. What happened to Desert All Over Brush?
That is what I thought. Flak or Flake pattern ponchos that Cheaper than Dirt had forever.
Great article - hadn't seen that one before. Thanks man.
Absolutely. I was conveying the same point earlier. They F'd up by "copyrighting" it with the EGA in the pattern. All services could have or should have joined up.
MARPAT, ACU, and CADPAT all are the same pattern, but different colors. MARPAT color scheme is not ideal, but Desert MARPAT is pretty good. If black in MARPAT were replaced with another drab earth color, then it would be the cat's ass. I feel multicam is much better suited, but does anyone have info regarding why a digital pattern was picked over color blotches? Could it be for a possible benefit to mix with pixelated NVGs better? I don't know - only asking. I agree with you that a universal pattern is the way to go; much more economically and practically efficient.
Got me on the digital, probably looked "modern"
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i239/jake8674/camocomparison.jpg
Regarding M16A4s in Basic - It is no different than an A2 in function. A2s are already available, and they can be trashed as much as possible for much less cost. Teach a fighter to shoot with the iron sights in Basic - they're only there a short period of time. They learn the optics (which are too expensive to be abused in formative training) at infantry school or in their unit. This issue is much more debatable than a million uniform changes, though, and I can understand your point.
Well, we just disagree then. I also don't buy the whole learn to shoot irons first crap either.
Regarding the 507th Maintenance Company with Jessica Lynch - If they'd cleaned their weapons, known how to read a GPS and a map, followed logistical procedures, and not gone back through a kill zone after entering one, they'd all be alive. Having 203s or any other supplementary weapons would not have helped them. Had they known soldiering, as their profession indicates they should, we wouldn't be discussing this.
We all know alot went wrong, and I'm not gonna start second guessing anyone. My point was not that a 203, or PEQ would've saved the day, only that all Soldiers,Airmen, Sailors, Marines, & Coast guardsmen may find themselves in a gunfight, regardless of their occupational specialty.
Issuing the same weapons to support units as front line is not new. When I was in, we regularly saw women with 60's, 203's, etc. A fully kitted M4, is the same thing.
The ability of the Army to issue a more capable system down to the remfest of remfs, in my mind makes the uniform almost irrelevant.
Someone, probably over at LF, said words to effect of, I'd go to war in a pink tutu and viking helmet, as long as I had an M4 with a light, laser and Aimpoint.
507th Maintenance Co. After Action Report
http://www.sftt.org/PDF/article07102003a.pdf
When I get a chance I'll read that.
I think multi-cam is the "A" answer. Its already proven, and been fielded somewhat, about as universal as you could hope to get, theres a manufacturing base already in place for it, most gear is already available in it, etc etc.
It would not be the first time something was issued, and later found out to be not all that great, or need some tweaking. Even the 1911, had to be updated once we started shooting people with it.
Bob
Looks kinda "German". Looks decent. What happened to Desert All Over Brush?
That is what I thought
Heavy Metal
09-19-09, 21:31
Indeed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19823845/Photosimulation-Camouflage-Detection-Test
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/cammotest1.jpg
That China pattern looks a helluva-lot like Green Dominant ERDL camo. Funny, as I picked it as the best green season woodland pattern years ago.
Bob,
According to the chart Wes posted, Multicam is indeed the best performing all-around patten.
You are right, it is quite good enough.
And we all remember the quote about the perfect being the enemy of the good enough. Hopefully somebody can western-union a copy of it to the brass.
Go with Multi-Cam I say.
Of course a lot of it could have been avoided, if we just re-arranged the pockets on a Woodland BDU's, and issued tan rough out boots(which were trialed in the early 80's).
Bob
I remember the SMA visiting Mother Rucker in '81-82 (it was a long time ago and I don't remember exactly). He was wearing rough out brown boots and told us he expected them to be approved soon.
Ah, memories.
I agree with R Moran It seems that Multicam would be the quickest, easiest choice at this point. There is a lot of gear in the pipeline already available in MC.
Since the decision seems to be up to politicians (in and out of uniform), I expect that an even worse choice than UCP will be made, that certain lobbyists will make great amounts of money out of the deal, that certain congressional districts will get funding totally unrelated to military uniforms and that the Joes who need it will still be shafted.
But I could be a cynic.
Outlander Systems
09-19-09, 22:05
They also need to get over the fact that there is no one camo solution.
The simplicity of that statement, doesn't detract from the amount of truth that it is awash in.
wild_wild_wes
09-20-09, 00:50
I agree with R Moran It seems that Multicam would be the quickest, easiest choice at this point. There is a lot of gear in the pipeline already available in MC.
Could you imagine the reaction if the Army did adopt MultiCam? All inventory would instantly be stripped off the shelves by the fanboys. It would be like trying to buy AR parts in December 2009....
Just came across this
http://strikehold.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/more-photos-of-mirage-camo-gear-and-uniforms/
i would like to see All over brush be the new pattern.
it performed best in first trials, best in desert, and urban, and second only to Multicam in woodland. if i remember correctly the latest version in the trials had a bit of green in it, so it should perform a bit better in woodland, but it looks like they use the only tan/desert version in these latest trials. Plus It performed comparable to multicam in these latest trials. Finally, its not Multicam....... im kidding im kidding..... kind of :p. thats if they want a universal pattern.
Me personally would probably choose a slightly modified Marpat( desert, and woodland) so the army can use it. and if not that, then a woodland, and desert All over brush, so it would be effective, but then they can say its still an "army" pattern.
wild_wild_wes
09-22-09, 23:26
I understand the reason the Army leadership disliked All Over Brush is that it "looked like a commercial Hunter's pattern".
Outlander Systems
09-22-09, 23:41
Fuck it. Go back to M81 and Cookie-Dough, but with the ACU cut.
So wait, these trials turned out a great camo pattern in Desert All Over Brush, a good pattern in Multicam, and ended up with... ACU? :confused:
-B
Outlander Systems
09-22-09, 23:56
ERDL "wasn't as effective" as Olive Drab for jungle warfare...
:rolleyes:
Dude, this isn't anything new. For the military to pick DAOB/MC/Mirage would make too much sense.
Making sense is anathema to large agencies where the ones making the decisions are suffering from a severe disconnect from those who are actually affected by those decisions.
I know you'd think in the 240 years this countries been around, we'd have someone higher up (that has some say) with some common sense huh?
Good article, Wes.
Phase III By the end of January 2010, Army leaders will make a decision whether or not to produce and field alternate uniforms and OCIE to selected units in specific regions of Operation Enduring Freedom.
So instead of taking care of business now, commanders and politicians will continue to stall just to field a new pattern in theater. At our expense. At the expense of men's lives.
Hmmm...looks like a digital version of the camo worn by South African Troopies in 32 Battalion..
Reinventing the wheel... a few years after deciding they liked square wheels instead of smooth, round ones.
:rolleyes:
-B
I still haven't seen a piece of real foliage that is foliage green. It's BLUE, I don't care if all the minions say it is green, or if the government says it is green,...if there's a plant that color I have yet to see it. UCP wouldn't be 50% as bad if the blue was just green...
Iraq Ninja
09-24-09, 05:21
I still haven't seen a piece of real foliage that is foliage green. It's BLUE, I don't care if all the minions say it is green, or if the government says it is green,...if there's a plant that color I have yet to see it. UCP wouldn't be 50% as bad if the blue was just green...
Well, if we ever invade Mexico..
http://www.tequilasource.com/tequilaquiote/pics/blue-agave-arandas_3226_r2.jpg
Well, if we ever invade Mexico..
http://www.tequilasource.com/tequilaquiote/pics/blue-agave-arandas_3226_r2.jpg
TEQUILAAAAAAAH! :p
soldiersystems
09-25-09, 21:09
Yo know what is REALLY cool about this thread? There is a WHOLE section that talks about it.
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=106
Heavy Metal
09-25-09, 21:19
http://www.firevergreen.com/UserFiles/Image/Colorado-Blue-Spruce-450.jpg
wild_wild_wes
09-27-09, 16:34
Yo know what is REALLY cool about this thread? There is a WHOLE section that talks about it.
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=106
Damn you're right that is a cool section!
soldiersystems
09-27-09, 16:43
Thank you sir
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