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jman4427
09-17-09, 15:27
This is slightly embarrassing but I want to get better and I need some help regarding flinching. Its not a problem for me when I slow fire but when I shoot rapidly or consecutive shots, I find myself tensing up and it is taking me off target. What are some things I could do to overcome this? Is this something that disappears over time?

I wouldn't say I'm a novice pistol shooter but I'm not really at the intermediate stage either.

Thanks

Jay Cunningham
09-17-09, 15:28
A ball and dummy drill is a great way to help overcome flinch.

Gutshot John
09-17-09, 15:31
SAFE dry-fire practice (like a ball and dummy drill) worked pretty well for me though you don't necessarily need a spent round if you watch your sights closely.

Every day fire about 100 trigger pulls (using proper focus, technique and presentation) Focus on smooth trigger pull, you'll gradually de-condition the response, artificially fooling your brain not to expect the shot and therefore not flinch.

Live rounds at this point seem to be reinforcing your flinch instead of getting you over it.

spamsammich
09-17-09, 15:38
A ball and dummy drill is a great way to help overcome flinch.

Yep, grab a handfull of snapcaps and mix them up in your ammo pile, then have a buddy load your mags for you. concentrate on smooth, consistent trigger pull, and sight picture.

This, combined with lots of dry fire as GSJ describes has worked wonders for me so far.

DBake
09-17-09, 15:39
You will never get rig of the flinch, it is natural to do it. You can only mininize it by practicing the tichniques above.

rob_s
09-17-09, 16:25
A ball and dummy drill is a great way to help overcome flinch.

Being prone to a massive finch myself, I'll disagree.

Ball and dummy is great for diagnosing a flinch, or to get someone to understand that they are flinching, but does little to cure it.

Dryfire works much better in my experience.

rob_s
09-17-09, 16:27
This is slightly embarrassing but I want to get better and I need some help regarding flinching. Its not a problem for me when I slow fire but when I shoot rapidly or consecutive shots, I find myself tensing up and it is taking me off target. What are some things I could do to overcome this? Is this something that disappears over time?

I wouldn't say I'm a novice pistol shooter but I'm not really at the intermediate stage either.

Thanks
Are you sure it's a flinch and not a trigger control issue? Flinching is anticipating recoil and tensing or pushing the gun. Is your POI relative to your POA?

jman4427
09-17-09, 16:36
Are you sure it's a flinch and not a trigger control issue? Flinching is anticipating recoil and tensing or pushing the gun. Is your POI relative to your POA?

I mean I'm pretty sure its a flinch. When shooting rapidly I'll lean slightly forward as I tense and I'll shoot low.

rob_s
09-17-09, 16:43
Don't put too much stock in these types of targets, but

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36749&d=1223317106

ToddG
09-17-09, 16:49
Building Block Drills to Proper Handgun Shooting:


Start with the Wall Drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill) or similar dry fire drill that will provide obvious & immediate feedback with regard to your sight alignment throughout the trigger stroke. When you can break the trigger without disturbing the alignment of your front sight, move on to the next drill.

Shoot a Ball & Dummy Drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/ball-dummy-drill) to assess whether you are anticipating recoil. Work on this (or go back to the Wall Drill) until you can break your shots without anticipation. Then move on to the next drill.

Use a 3x5 Card Drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/3x5-card-drill) or similar walkback-type drill to refine your marksmanship at slow speed. Until you can get 100% hits on demand on a 3x5 at 7yd, you shouldn't focus on going faster. Once you can hit the card at 7yd every time, move on to the next drill.

The Circle Drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/circle-drill) or another adjusting speed drill will begin to show you how time compression affects your shooting. You want to get a tight little group when you're taking your time and you want to be in control of the gun when you're going fast.


In my experience, most of the problems we attribute to poor trigger control are actually caused by improper grip or recoil management. When trigger manipulation is the problem at speed, it's usually the result of a shooter changing how he presses the trigger when he goes fast, rather than just compressing the timeframe in which he does it the right way ... the way he already knows how.

It's also important to define what you're trying to accomplish. If you can hit a 4" circle at 25yd slow fire and now want to hit that same circle at that same distance with 0.10 splits, you're smoking crack. If you're doing things properly, the time you're "saving" when shooting fast is the refinement time you would use on your sight picture and trigger control when going slower. Shooting fast is about learning what is and isn't an acceptable amount of refinement under a given circumstance.

Buck
09-17-09, 17:01
http://hubermachado.net/electroshock_NoTwe_183.jpg

I’m a big advocate of electro shock therapy… In my experience it works wonders, but YMMV…

jman4427
09-17-09, 17:09
This might help me also....
http://cache.io9.com/assets/resources/2007/12/clockwork-large.jpg

But seriously, Im going to try the 3x5 card drill and get some snap caps as suggested before I go faster. Thanks Todd

Jay Cunningham
09-17-09, 17:13
Being prone to a massive finch myself, I'll disagree.

Ball and dummy is great for diagnosing a flinch, or to get someone to understand that they are flinching, but does little to cure it.

Dryfire works much better in my experience.

Ball and Dummy incorporates dry-fire, at least how LAV teaches it. Every time you flinch you perform five perfect dry-fires and then resume the drill.

Whenever I recommend a drill, you can basically add the prefix "In addition to dry-fire everyday, you can also..."

Zhurdan
09-17-09, 17:35
I mean I'm pretty sure its a flinch. When shooting rapidly I'll lean slightly forward as I tense and I'll shoot low.

Perhaps shooting rapidly is the issue. Try slowing down a bit until you can shoot and hit how you want... then step up the speed a little at a time. Trying to go from slow and consistant to super speedy is just going to add problems to the mix. It's damn fun to shoot fast, but it's even more damn fun to shoot fast and actually hit what you're shooting at. ;)

Seriously, I recommend to people (and I'm not a professional mind you, but I have shown quite a few people how to shoot) that they practice drawing and firing at 1/4 speed until they can hit where they want better than 90-95% of the time. Then take it up a notch to 1/2 speed till near 90%, then 3/4.... you get the picture. 1/2 speed is obviously going to be a relative term for each person. Just start slow-motion slow. It'll help you in all aspects of the draw, as long as you are doing them properly to begin with. Pretty soon, it'll be second nature.

I'drecommend working up to fast.

Erik 1
09-18-09, 01:21
So, I tried this ^^^ for a few dry fire rounds tonight and I was surprised to find that I was able to keep the case balanced on the sight. (I didn't think I'd be able to balance it on the sight at all, let alone keep it there while I pulled the trigger.) The question I have is, are there any good tips for taking it to the next level of faster dry fire and live fire, or is it simply a matter of repeating the dry fire until it "takes?" I think I know the answer already, but it seems worth asking the experts. Thanks.

EDIT: To the OP, I'm sorry for the apparent thread-jack. You posted a question I've had myself and my questions seemed on topic, but still...

joshs
09-18-09, 11:36
The biggest contributor to my flinch is staging the trigger. Make sure you are pulling the trigger straight to the rear without stopping at the point right before the sear breaks. If you stop the pull after taking up all the slack, this tends to lead to now syndrome, trying to make the gun go off right now. It is easy to not flinch in dryfire because you know there is not going to be a loud noise, when you try to take the trigger control you learned with dryfire to livefire think about what pulling the trigger felt like in dryfire, and do not think about the gun going off. To get the surprise break just pull the trigger slowly straight to the rear while focusing on the front sight, understand that you will have an acceptable wobble zone, and don't try to make the gun go off at a specific spot on the target.

Business_Casual
09-18-09, 14:06
OP and Erik,

With whom have you trained?

Hint: Seek out a tier one trainer.

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=88

The money you are wasting in ganked shots will more than pay for the class.

M_P

Erik 1
09-18-09, 15:47
Thanks. I'm a relatively new shooter, so have had only a little formal training so far (the CCW class and a day long class geared towards people who are new to concealed carry). More formal training is a definite must and is high on my list.

joshs: Thank you for the tip about not staging the trigger. I think that's a definite factor for me.

Ian111
09-18-09, 19:44
What caliber are you shooting and what model? The combo you're shooting might be a little too much right now and like others said reinforcing your flinch. Back up a little bit. In fact back up all the way to a .22 pistol and practice smooth trigger control and front sight focus. Make sure you're not feeling for the trigger break whatever you're shooting.

Dapimpspimp
09-18-09, 21:04
A flinch is a natural response to loud and unfamiliar stimuli. The loud sound of gunfire just happens to trigger this response.

I think very few people actually ever overcome flinching. Most people just seem to minimize it. That's what I have done.

I found arm and grip strengthening to be helpful. Trying wearing both ear plugs and ear muffs when shooting. Concentrate on your trigger/sear reset, ensuring that you take up all loose trigger travel prior to breaking your shot. Handguns with short sear resets like 1911 style pistols and glocks seem to be better for beginners to learn sear reset.

By trigger/sear reset I mean, the shooter fires the weapon and continues to hold the trigger to the rear as the slide/action resets it self. The shooter slowly releases the trigger foward until they hear/feel a click. That's the sear reset. The shooter then begins a rearward press on the trigger. Sigs have a lot of loose play at this point, ie "slack". Once the slack to taken up. The shooter feels firm resistance. The shooter ensures that the sights are in line with the target, completes the last fraction of trigger press, and the shot fires.


Standard Sig handguns have a rather long sear reset and a lot of loose trigger play. My agency issues Sigs. The main problem that I see with our shooters is that they will ease the trigger forward to reset and then quickly press the trigger to the rear without properly controlling the trigger. The other issue is shooters completely releasing their finger from the trigger and then slapping trigger to the rear to fire another shoot. This action pushes the weapon off of target.

Done correctly, this is what you will hear...bang..click (reset)...bang..click..bang click..

I think most shooters understand the sight alignment and sight picture concept. Its the trigger control issue that throws most people.

My suggestion would be to concentrate on trigger control/sear reset. As you slow fire, pay attention to your form. If you feel your flinch coming on prior to breaking the shot, don't shoot. Take a deep breath and start the shot over again.

Hope this helps.

Dapimpspimp
09-18-09, 21:23
Here's a dry fire drill that I use and one that I use with my students. It requires a friend to help you out.

1. Ensure... I mean really ensure..that you have an unloaded weapon and a safe backstop. No magazine in your weapon. Assume your firing form/grip on your weapon. Now aim at a small target or point on your backstop. Press the trigger to the rear without disturbing your sight alignment/sight picture. Hold the trigger to the rear after the hammer/striker falls.

2. While holding the trigger to the rear, have your friend pull the slide of your weapon to the rear and quickly release it (this resets your weapon's action)

3. The shooter now slowly releases the trigger forward until he feels/hears the sear reset itself. Don't release past this point.

4. Keeping your sights on target, slowly take up any travel in the trigger by slowly pressing the trigger rearward until the trigger will not move back any further without breaking the "shot". When doing this, try to eliminate any shift if your sight alignment/sight picture.

5. Brake your shot now without disturbing your sights.

6. Repeat steps 1-5.

I generally have my students do this drill when I seen their groups opening up or I actually see their flinches.

Most people with start "flinching" immediately or after a few dry shots. Practice this drill at home and on the range when you feel your flinch coming on.

Erik 1
09-18-09, 22:45
Thanks very much. I'm shooting and M&P 9mm. I don't really have the opportunity to dry fire with a friend, but can definitely focus on trigger control/sear reset. Again, thanks very much for the tips.

Dunderway
09-18-09, 23:35
It's a conditioned response that you CAN get over.

Anybody have an older brother? Remember "2 for flinching"? I eventually got where I could stair straight ahead while my big brother's fist came crashing into my shoulder (or chest, or stomach) at a painful rate. He quit doing it after I stopped reacting beforehand.

It's all about conditioning. I can't say that I have mastered it with a pistol, but I will and anyone can. I believe it is what Cooper deemed the "surprise break". Don't anticipate it. Just concentrate on the target, and let it surprise you.

BB01
09-18-09, 23:46
... Shooting fast is about learning what is and isn't an acceptable amount of refinement under a given circumstance.

Well said!

mattjmcd
09-18-09, 23:58
I don't get to shoot too often anymore, and I've found that I've developed a flinch when I get back in the saddle, so to speak. I try to dry-fire a lot, and anytime I catch myself throwing a flyer due to flinch, I stop shooting and dry fire a minimum of 10-20 times. It forces me to concentrate, slow down mentally, and wait for the shot to break.

Erik 1
09-19-09, 13:00
Thanks guys. Reading through the replies, and analyzing what I do when I dry fire, I think I really need to focus on a steadier trigger pull and not anticipating the break. This has been really helpful for me.

beltfed
09-19-09, 19:52
Learn to call your shots.

steeltoe
09-19-09, 20:35
Everyone flinches, nothing embarassing about it. With practice it can be controlled to where it doesn't affect your shot.

One thing is the more you are focused on your sight picture the less you focus on the BOOM. Your brain can only concentrate on so much at one time. If it's focused on the BOOM you can't be concentrating on sight picture. When you are completely focused on sight picture the shot is a surprise that cannot be anticipated.

Erik 1
09-20-09, 20:09
Thanks. Maintaining focus on the front sight is harder than it seems. Kind of meditative.

ToddG
09-21-09, 16:36
As joshs pointed out, a huge part of flinch/anticipation problem for many people is staging the trigger. Sadly, most people never get proper instruction on how to press a trigger properly.

First, think in terms of weight not distance. It doesn't matter how far the trigger is moving per unit of time. What matters is that you increase the pressure (weight) on the trigger consistently. So in the first three hundredths of a second you might move the trigger through 80% of its arc and in the second three hundredths you'll do the last 20%. Just keep steadily and consistently adding pressure.

Second, do not stop your finger's movement. Many people get to the "break" point, stop, and then crush through the last part of the press. It doesn't matter how perfectly you press the trigger up to the break point ... if you break the trigger bad, you get a bad shot.

Finally, there have been a lot of comments about "slow" versus "fast" ... We are not born with two built-in shooting speeds. If you're struggling at something when you go "fast" then slow down a bit. Find a comfortable pace that allows you to get your hits, then work on increasing that pace in small increments.

Erik 1
09-21-09, 17:06
Thank you. That's very helpful for me, especially the idea of focusing on increasing the weight of the trigger pull. I definitely need to work on being more smooth and steady, and not stopping at the almost break point.

tb-av
09-21-09, 18:05
".....and then crush through the last part of the press...."

I think that is what I am doing. That pretty much describes how I feel. Like I need to crush the entire thing to make it happen.

spamsammich
09-21-09, 18:18
I sometimes find myself squeezing the grip like I'm trying to make diamonds out of the damned thing. I've had my best results with relaxing my strong hand and pushing a little with it while doing most of the squeezing with my support hand. I usually squeeze no harder than a friendly handshake with my strong hand.

tb-av
09-21-09, 19:33
That's what I can't seem to understand. If I dry fire. It's a no brainer. Everything is firm yet relaxed. ... and for instance I am home now and can sit in a rather dark room, with standard glock sights, aim across a room to the black dome of the tweeter in a speaker.

Everything goes -very- smoothly. I -know-, that had it fired, it would blow the tweeter out every time.

Go to the range with better sight picture and no expectations other than to hit a reasonably large white square and it's as though I'm asking myself to do the impossible.

Having gun fire as a "surprise". I have done that and there seem to be two versions of that. Version 1 is, ok the shot is fired and everything felt normal. Version 2 is, damn, ok there it went, I wish I had known that was going to happen. I get more Version 2 with this gun.

"Call your shots". I still don't exactly know what that means. I've had others tell me to do that and I don't quite get the concept. 8 ball in the left side pocket. Self explanatory. I'm aiming for anywhere inside that 3x5 box, shot lands 4" down and 2" over. How exactly do you call a shot.

"Sadly, most people never get proper instruction on how to press a trigger properly."

I have been told to press the trigger straight back towards the web of my hand while maintaining index finger independence from the rest of the hand. I believe I must be straying from that with this -crush- you mention. I am evidently getting wrist, and lower fingers involved as well. Perhaps all -clamping- or -crushing- at once.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'll see if I can get some of these ideas to work for me.

Tom

Ian111
09-21-09, 20:37
That's what I can't seem to understand. If I dry fire. It's a no brainer. Everything is firm yet relaxed. ... and for instance I am home now and can sit in a rather dark room, with standard glock sights, aim across a room to the black dome of the tweeter in a speaker.

Everything goes -very- smoothly. I -know-, that had it fired, it would blow the tweeter out every time.

Go to the range with better sight picture and no expectations other than to hit a reasonably large white square and it's as though I'm asking myself to do the impossible.

Having gun fire as a "surprise". I have done that and there seem to be two versions of that. Version 1 is, ok the shot is fired and everything felt normal. Version 2 is, damn, ok there it went, I wish I had known that was going to happen. I get more Version 2 with this gun.

"Call your shots". I still don't exactly know what that means. I've had others tell me to do that and I don't quite get the concept. 8 ball in the left side pocket. Self explanatory. I'm aiming for anywhere inside that 3x5 box, shot lands 4" down and 2" over. How exactly do you call a shot.

"Sadly, most people never get proper instruction on how to press a trigger properly."

I have been told to press the trigger straight back towards the web of my hand while maintaining index finger independence from the rest of the hand. I believe I must be straying from that with this -crush- you mention. I am evidently getting wrist, and lower fingers involved as well. Perhaps all -clamping- or -crushing- at once.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'll see if I can get some of these ideas to work for me.

Tom

Everyone can dry fire a smooth trigger press without disturbing the sights with the front sight perfectly focused. Its not hard to do. Its when you're actually shooting live rounds old habits creep up even when you're consciously telling yourself "Front sight focus. Smooth trigger press". Our body is reacting to the shock/recoil and we often unconsciously go back to our bad habits because that's our 'comfort zone'. Your grip, your stance, where your finger is positioned on the trigger, all that is really not important if you're not executing a smooth and consistent trigger press everytime.

Don't overthink it. Forget the sights even. Forget the target. Pretend there is no trigger break. Just point it downrange somewhere in the middle of the bullseye (5-7 yards) and focus solely on a smooth and fluid trigger press. As if the trigger has no reistance at all. Keep constant contact with the trigger as it resets as you ease off with your finger. Go slowly at least one shot per second. And don't look up at the target untill you've expended the entire mag. Your focus throughout all this is one thing only; a smooth trigger press every time. Nothing else matters. Its worth trying to see what happens. What's it gonna cost you except a few magfuls of ammo? You'll also get an idea of how a good trigger press is suppose to feel with live rounds.

tb-av
09-21-09, 21:06
10-4 will give that a try. After hundreds of rounds with no noticable improvement, I'm willing to try most anything.

M4Fundi
09-22-09, 04:36
I've "read" that flinch is often much a product of loud noises and that some shooters have found that double plugging (ear plugs and ear muffs) that radically reduce the big bang also reduce their flinch

For me it was better grip form so I had much better passive control over recoil and was thus not actively trying to control recoil and lots of dry fire.

Erik 1
10-04-09, 18:02
I just wanted to come back to this thread and thank the people who offered advice. I've been really working on a smooth steady trigger pull in dry fire practice for the last couple of weeks. I got to the range today, finally, and tried the same thing in live fire. I kept it to a relatively slow pace and really worked on a smooth, steady trigger pull and maintaining front sight focus, with follow-through. I saw significant improvement over my last trip(s) to the range - fewer fliers and much better overall consistency shot-to-shot. Thank you very much. You guys have really helped me a lot and I apppreciate it. I know if I keep working on these fundamentals I will continue to see improvement.

I think the next big hurdle for me is maintaining sight focus/tracking the sight through recoil. Try as I will, I lose the sight on the upswing, and it takes time to re-acquire the sight picture when the muzzle returns to level. If anybody has any tips for working on that, I'd certainly appreciate it.

Thanks again to everybody.

ToddG
10-05-09, 08:23
I think the next big hurdle for me is maintaining sight focus/tracking the sight through recoil. Try as I will, I lose the sight on the upswing, and it takes time to re-acquire the sight picture when the muzzle returns to level. If anybody has any tips for working on that, I'd certainly appreciate it.

1. Practice. Sight tracking is one of those things that people think they're doing, then six months later they say, "Oh, now I get it!" Then six years later they say, "Oh, now I get it!"

2. If you have a ceiling fan in your house, lie beneath it and focus on a single blade as it spins. When you can easily follow the blade, turn up the speed on the fan. This will help you learn to move your eyes faster, process what you're seeing, etc. If possible, reverse the direction of the fan once in a while, too.

3. Work on your recoil management. If you are not controlling the gun during recoil, the front sight will move farther and more erratically. This will make tracking the sight much harder and perhaps even impossible.

Erik 1
10-05-09, 11:02
Thanks Todd. Again, your advice is very much appreciated. I don't have a ceiling fan, but I get the concept. I'll do some research on drills that improve the ability to track a moving object.

C4IGrant
10-05-09, 11:09
This is slightly embarrassing but I want to get better and I need some help regarding flinching. Its not a problem for me when I slow fire but when I shoot rapidly or consecutive shots, I find myself tensing up and it is taking me off target. What are some things I could do to overcome this? Is this something that disappears over time?

I wouldn't say I'm a novice pistol shooter but I'm not really at the intermediate stage either.

Thanks

You will never "cure it. What you will be able to do is manage it (over time).

The Vickers/Hackathorn Ball and Dummy drill is one of the best ways I know of to "help" with this issue.


C4

tb-av
10-31-09, 15:35
Hey guys, I just wanted to thank you all. To be honest I have had some health issues, may have kidney stone problem and really haven't felt like doing much or could concentrate either. Anyway, I decided to go back to the range and try a few things. So as best as I could remember and again without any dry fire practice and no dummies for ball/dummy study, here is what I did.

Glock Model 23 .40 - the problem child - Georgia Arms flat nose jacketed.
Kimber Full size .45 - gave me feed problems for the first time ever. To be honest I could never feed an entire clip and the last say 40 rounds were fired one at a time. Load, rack, fire, drop clip, load, rack, etc.. Lead SWC ( my reloads )

8 Yards - Iso Stance - No time limits but no long drawn out "try to get the perfect shot" situation either. Just casual shooting at a positive pace.

Dry fired Glock and then decided to try the "just fire a clip" method and see where the chips fall. The results were not good. I was aiming for the red dot in center target NOT the red dot in lower quarter.

http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/Initial%20Fire.jpg

So I immediately switched to the Kimber and without any dry fire....

http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/Kimber45-%201st%20run.jpg

Back to Glock.... Better but first shot was only one to hit mark.

http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/Aim%20for%203-5.jpg

Back to Kimber with feed problems and not really trying all that much just lift it up and shoot.

http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/Kimber45-casual.jpg

Back to the Glock. This time I just used a hole in the target as my "bullseye". Circled in red. Results were not horrible and the pulled shots I actually felt like I knew just what I had done wrong.

http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/results.jpg

So final I just decided to try to punch the center of the target and not over think things. I had identified a few things and this is what it looked like. Still more "down" shots than "centered" shots.

http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/Final%20Results%20with%2040.jpg

And then I went back to the Kimber. I would say this is roughly 30 shots loaded one at a time. I was aiming at the red circle. Most of the shots went in the yellow circle and in trying to move it over the hole got larger. I have no idea why this pattern moved from basically centered(kimber) to upper right, other than that target was in the lower right quad of the backer. I had mixed emotions about this. They were all going in the same hole without even trying but not where I was aiming. Maybe trying to move the Glock up and to right?

The holes below red and yellow circles are left over from the Glock.
http://home.comcast.net/~tb-av/Targets/Kimber%2045%20-%2030+%20shots.jpg

So anyway, I was definitely over thinking some things. Still need to fix a few things. I actually caught myself lowering my arms from the shoulders a couple of times.

But I think the advice did help even though I haven't really had much time to seriously put it to work. Just wanted to check back in and say thanks as I can at least see some light at the end of the tunnel now. I was getting quite dismayed at my ability to overcome the problem.


Tom

YammyMonkey
11-01-09, 01:59
Swapping back & forth from the Glock to the Kimber will usually have you shooting better with the crisper, lighter 1911 trigger because you're not expecting gun go bang when it does. Your brain is thinking that you're safe for another few lbs of pressu-BANG! Surprise break.:D

If you feel some anxiety or start getting the "gotta rush & make the gun go boom NOW" sensation just stop, take your finger off the trigger & reset yourself.

There is a big difference between a ball & dummy drill for diagnosing/fixing a flinch & just adding dummies into your mags for malfxn practice. If you treat the former like the latter & immediately go into a T-R-B you'll miss the point of the drill which is to see what your gun is doing. When it clicks you need to stop, assess what happened & then move on.

I've been fighting a flinch issue on the first round out of the holster shooting at a small target (think first shot on the FAST) for a few months & in my case slowing down the draw process & firing at extension didn't help so I started getting more aggessive on the trigger as I was pressing out- firing the shot before extension. As I (very) slowly started increasing the speed of the press out I was able to improve the overall speed & not flinch but it has been a very slow process for me.

It'll take time & in my opinion more dry fire & less live is not always the cure. If you're uncomfortable with the gun & the blast then more live fire can help decondition you to it IF you go slowly, stop when you feel that anticipation & work on making your shots count as opposed to just making brass.

FromMyColdDeadHand
11-01-09, 02:57
Swapping back & forth from the Glock to the Kimber will usually have you shooting better with the crisper, lighter 1911 trigger because you're not expecting gun go bang when it does.

It is a good way to sell your Glock shooting buddy your 1911 when he keeps on pulling shoots with his Glock , but your 1911 magically 'cures' it for him.

tb-av
11-01-09, 07:37
It is a good way to sell your Glock shooting buddy your 1911 when he keeps on pulling shoots with his Glock , but your 1911 magically 'cures' it for him.

Ha! :D, I never put that equation together that you guys mention. That's a good idea, but I need to figure how to make it work in reverse. I think .40 in a compact is just not something I want any longer. I had an HK .40C and was a little better with it but not much. I seem to do whole lot better with 9mm or .45. The .40 is good for exposing my flaws though.


@YM, about the B&D drill. I see your point and that is exactly what I try to do on each mistake. Stop and try to replay the scene so to speak. I'm actually going to try a video camera for a while. But I'm drawing a blank here, what is T-R-B?

About the Glock/1911 back and forth thing. For me the 1911 just always feels right. It's as though there is no trigger. The other guns I shoot are a S&W M52 and High Standard so I am pre-disposed to that smooth crisp feel. Come to think of it, I have a S&W revolver that had the trigger worked on and it is smooth as glass. So I'm evidently taking all those for granted and not realizing how a basic trigger complicates things.

I agree with you too that I think I learn more on the range, but before this I had reached the point that I was indeed just making brass.

Well... it's pouring down rain, there's a new gun show in town today, haven't been to one in years, I think I might go buy some snap caps and one of those universal mag loaders.

Thanks all.

TB

YammyMonkey
11-02-09, 02:14
T-R-B = Tap-Rack-Bang (or whatever you want to replace bang with).

gringop
11-02-09, 21:51
Stop bouncing back and forth between guns. A Glock trigger is not a 1911 trigger and never will be. The takeup, break and reset are totally different and you need to learn how they work on the Glock and internalize it.

Even nicely tuned Glock triggers have a sproing to them and you have to get used to it and accept it. Just as you manage the trigger on revolvers differently than triggers on 1911s, you have to manage Glock triggers differently.

Put the 1911 away and practice with the Glock, dry and live fire. Grit your damn teeth and tell yourself that you will learn how to handle the springy Glock trigger. Follow the others advice re. ball and dummy, double plug, etc. Then once you are happy with your Glock performance, try out the 1911 again.

Two different guns, two different triggers, two different methods of trigger control.

Gringop

Shadow1198
01-28-10, 18:30
"Call your shots". I still don't exactly know what that means. I've had others tell me to do that and I don't quite get the concept. 8 ball in the left side pocket. Self explanatory. I'm aiming for anywhere inside that 3x5 box, shot lands 4" down and 2" over. How exactly do you call a shot.


Calling your shots involves knowing the fundamentals and being consciously aware of how you are exercising them enough that you instantaneously know exactly where the shot hit without looking at the target. You need to have a proper front sight focus, and you need to maintain that focus even after you've broken the shot.

One problem most people have is looking for the bullet holes after every single shot, to confirm where they hit. One thing I've found that helped me immensely with this is using a "negative" target. Basically cut a dinner plate sized hole out of a target at ~7yds so that there is literally nothing in the center for you to shift your focus to and confirm. Aim for this hole and try to maintain your front sight focus after each shot. Eventually work your way down to smaller and smaller holes until you can consistently keep them all inside a hole no bigger than a baseball under slow fire. From the standpoint of pure accuracy, at that close of distance you should be able to shoot a tighter group than that, but for the purposes of maintaining a front sight focus and not shifting back to the target to "confirm", that's good enough to get you most of the way there or at least get you used to the idea of not shifting focus back to the target.

For rapid fire, fist-sized or grapefruit-sized or something close to it and 3-4rds/sec is a good goal to shoot for IMO. Rapid fire done properly, you will be acutely aware of every physical aspect of your front sight throughout the recoil cycle.

tb-av
01-29-10, 14:27
Thanks, I'll give that a shot next time I'm out.

I still have a little confusion about just what I'm supposed to be seeing after the shot breaks now that you mention it.

I understand the front sight focus and especially the "front sight, front sight, front sight" mentality at these close ranges.

What I'm a little confused on is the time after the break. Right now, for me, it's like watching a movie with some frames missing.

It can vary but is similar to...
Bang
Missing Frames
Muzzle ( aimed somewhere in general direction of target )
(Seems like a lot of thought goes here trying to re-acquire stability in sight, trigger and target)( So more missing frames because my mind is trying to process too many things)
Sight
Sight on target
Bang

mark5pt56
01-29-10, 16:31
Try this to re-enforce trigger manipulation and sight tracking.

3 mags, 12 rounds each

target with 4 3" dots, equal distance apart

5 yards

This will be run 3 times for each mag, one shot per circle, separate row of targets for each mag

mag #1-sight in and for each shot, either say out loud or silently, "front sight, trigger press" --you actually take that long to fire the shot. During recoil, reset and "feed" the gun onto the next target and repeat at the same speed. Make sure you are tracking the sight!.

Mag #2-same thing, but with the speed of "trigger press"

Mag #3-same thing, but at the speed you can track your sight-remember, your sights are your speedometer!


I find this really helps in incrementally reminding you of the two most important things you need to do to hit your target. Hopefully it helps out

Also look at your target to give you feedback on things you maybe doing wrong. (Example-subconsciously moving the gun before you fire the shot or breaking the shot to soon)

Remember the three stages of "learning"

1-Consciously thinking of each and everything
2-subconciously somethings are taking place, consciously concentrating on "programming" harder task
3-most actions subconscious, freeing the mind to concentrate on general decision making.

When you find errors in actions, go through the steps to correct them with the stages above.

WillBrink
01-30-10, 10:31
This is slightly embarrassing but I want to get better and I need some help regarding flinching. Its not a problem for me when I slow fire but when I shoot rapidly or consecutive shots, I find myself tensing up and it is taking me off target. What are some things I could do to overcome this? Is this something that disappears over time?

I wouldn't say I'm a novice pistol shooter but I'm not really at the intermediate stage either.

Thanks

To add to what the pros have already told you: have you had anyone who knows a bit more actually watch you to make sure that's what you are doing? Diagnosing and trying to fix something actually being caused by something else, often leads to even more problems.

If not, record yourself. That can be very helpful. I find even people actually visually seeing themselves flinch (anticipate the shot by dipping the muzzle right before they pull the trigger) can improve it as it makes them more aware of it. Recording yourself, then showing it to someone else, may also help to diagnose whether it's true flinching, or, as others pointy out, a trigger control issue.

Two, in novice shooters, I find it's amazingly effective to tell them they are flinching (some don't know they are doing it), then watch closely, and tell them they are flinching as they do it. They will then get some cognitive and physical feedback on the flinching as they do it, and most of the time, it stops right there.

Assuming (and that's never good...) your mechanics are good, the flinching thing is easy to cure by simple direct immediate feedback while the person is doing it in my experience, but even filming yourself and seeing yourself doing it, seems to be effective for some.

As others have mentioned, it could also be your mechanics, or a combo of both, and a good course with a good trainer is always money well spent and years of wasted time saved.