View Full Version : KVAR Russian SGL21-61- $499 .
Iraq Ninja
10-24-09, 09:55
Just got an email from Kvar announcing their new discounted prices on their Russian Saiga Aks.
If you ever thought about getting an AK, this may be the best deal around, considering it is a Russian Saiga already converted. If you have a better deal on a new saiga, post it here..
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/d_1197.jpg
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=353
For $569 you can get one with a MI rail system...
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/d_1278.jpg
Got the same email, and yes it is one hell of a deal. I already have a SGL-21 that I paid much more for... It is a great rifle and well worth the price of admission. I am a little pissed that they could drop the price by almost 50% after they were selling them at such a high price though.:mad: I like the looks of the railed offering too.
nutnless220
10-24-09, 10:59
Thanks for the heads up, fellows.
I've been wanting to pick up a quality Ak for awhile, the railed model looks like a great deal. The prices sure are alot better than the local shops.
Will these take standard AK mags?
-RD62
Will these take standard AK mags?
-RD62
Yes. I have had no problems with either steel, or Circle 10 Bulgy's...
MPi-KMS-72
10-24-09, 11:47
That is a good deal, much more in keeping with what an AK should cost IMHO...
QuickStrike
10-25-09, 06:55
There goes my self-restraint.
Damn that is a good price considering...
REEEALLY hoping that the sights aren't canted this time.
My God, this is a great deal. :eek:
very good deal .I have one saiga great AK
And here I was convinced that I was done buying 7.62 rifles.
Now I need two more.
:mad:
That is just a gimme price, people pay that much for WASR crap.
I may have to sell my 14 year old on the internet and buy a few of these. :p
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17023
Ive been on the fence, but this price is making me jump!
John
texasrangers
10-26-09, 01:07
does the stock fold?
The stock doesn't fold. The finish will run like mascara in certain conditions, and the sights might be crooked. I'd rather have a SAM7 powder coated for the original SGL asking price.
But I did raid k-var's parts bin when they halved their prices... for two saiga conversions that cost about what these would with a decent refinish job. :D
Alaskapopo
10-26-09, 02:59
Is there any catch. Seems like a great deal?
Pat
Iraq Ninja
10-26-09, 06:49
Pat,
The rumor is that Kvar bought a bunch of these earlier this year when the buying frenzy was upon us. Now, with the economy in a bad state the stuff is not selling and they need to clear some inventory.
So this is a limited time deal, i.e. sale? Or have they lowered their standard prices?
I'm trying to figure if these will be available after the Holidays or are a limited time, get-it-while-you-can offer.
-RD62
Just got an email from Kvar announcing their new discounted prices on their Russian Saiga Aks.
If you ever thought about getting an AK, this may be the best deal around, considering it is a Russian Saiga already converted. If you have a better deal on a new saiga, post it here..
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/d_1197.jpg
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=353
For $569 you can get one with a MI rail system...
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/d_1278.jpg
So looking at their website it states they come with a 5 round magazine. I have never owned an AK and have been looking around this looks like quite a deal. Just wanted to be sure that they accept Hi cap magazines
So looking at their website it states they come with a 5 round magazine. I have never owned an AK and have been looking around this looks like quite a deal. Just wanted to be sure that they accept Hi cap magazines
Yes, they do...
Wow, that is an outstanding price. If my Lancaster keeps giving me issues, I may just have to sell it and transfer all of its accessories to one of these.
FlyAndFight
10-26-09, 17:19
Definitely a great deal, especially the railed model.
I couldn't stand it!
I just ordered an SGL21. I know if I held out I would have missed out and really regretted it.
Now to figure out how to blend it in with the other rifles so the wife doesn't notice... :D
-RD62
Out of curiousity have you contacted Lancaster Arms? They can't fix it if you don't tell them there is a problem. Manufacturers can't fix their issues if no one tells them.
Wow, that is an outstanding price. If my Lancaster keeps giving me issues, I may just have to sell it and transfer all of its accessories to one of these.
I couldn't stand it!
I just ordered an SGL21. I know if I held out I would have missed out and really regretted it.
Now to figure out how to blend it in with the other rifles so the wife doesn't notice... :D
-RD62
You did it wrong. "Honey guess what I bought you."
:D
mkmckinley
10-27-09, 02:06
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to AK's. Are these pretty decent? What's the significance of it being a Saiga? If one of these bad boys was an AR what would it be? Let's say DPMS is a 1 and Noveske's a 5.
Alaskapopo
10-27-09, 03:31
Alright I am getting the railed model on payday. I just hope they are still in by then. (next Tuesday)
Pat
Iraq Ninja
10-27-09, 04:05
I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to AK's. Are these pretty decent? What's the significance of it being a Saiga? If one of these bad boys was an AR what would it be? Let's say DPMS is a 1 and Noveske's a 5.
Saigas are Russian, the originators of the weapon platform. Built in the Ishmash factory. So, it is like a Colt. You are getting a true Russian AK built mostly in Russia, and not a parts kit assembled in someone's garage.
Noveske's would equate to a high end custom builder like Fuller.
mkmckinley
10-27-09, 04:37
Thanks much, sounds like I need to pick one up. Now to decide between NATO and Warsaw length stocks.
I recommend the warsaw length, unless you're pretty tall. The warsaw length is even a little on the longish side for me when shooting with armor.
For comparison, I'm 5' 9" and skinny.
The warsaw length is the same length as my m4 stock pulled out to the 3rd hole (fully collapsed, 1st hole, 2nd hole, 3rd hole). I normally prefer the m4 stock on the 1st hole with armor.
Thanks much, sounds like I need to pick one up. Now to decide between NATO and Warsaw length stocks.
I'm 6'2" and wookie sized, and the NATO length stock is way too long. It's about the same length as the A2 stock on an M16A2.
Go with the standard length "Warsaw Pact" stock, it's about the same length as the M16A1.
Littlelebowski
10-27-09, 11:46
These take Saiga or AK mags?
These take Saiga or AK mags?
Regular AK mags work fine.
I believe they just sold out of the railed model...
Gonna go for the one in plum today.
I believe they just sold out of the railed model...
You are correct they just sold out of the railed models. However they still have plenty of the non railed models per the customer service rep I just talked with
*edit* Nvm
Snagged a plum.
Can't wait.
Alaskapopo
10-27-09, 15:58
I believe they just sold out of the railed model...
DAMN IT!!!
Oh well. I really wanted one of those. Question what kind of rail system was on those and how much are they? I could buy one of the other models and add the rails.
Pat
DAMN IT!!!
Oh well. I really wanted one of those. Question what kind of rail system was on those and how much are they? I could buy one of the other models and add the rails.
Pat
Sorry I had a couple buddies of mine get in on the deal and they got the last of them.:eek: You can always add an Ultimak if you want. Here is a couple of mine with that setup.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1103.jpg
MPi-KMS-72
10-27-09, 16:45
DAMN IT!!!
Question what kind of rail system was on those and how much are they?Pat
I think they have the Midwest Industries one:
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/images/products/mi_ak4774hndgrd.gif
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=241
Stickman's review:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11666#post11666
Anyone think selling a Vector to get one of these is worth it? My Vector is pretty nice, actually a bit nicer than my Arsenal 107.
Anyone think selling a Vector to get one of these is worth it? My Vector is pretty nice, actually a bit nicer than my Arsenal 107.
If your Vector is doing everything you want it to and you're happy with it....then no, I don't see the benefit to getting rid of if for the sake of a new shiny.....
DAMN IT!!!
Oh well. I really wanted one of those. Question what kind of rail system was on those and how much are they? I could buy one of the other models and add the rails.
Pat
Midwest Industries makes the rail and can be had for around $110(some places cost more) from various dealers. I have one and it's pretty good. My only real complaint is that it adds a bit more weight up front than I'd like, but that's mostly due to that fact that I stuck a large aimpoint and a surefire on it.
If your Vector is doing everything you want it to and you're happy with it....then no, I don't see the benefit to getting rid of if for the sake of a new shiny.....
Mag well is tight and won't take waffle mags, otherwise a nice rifle. It wouldn't octs me anything, I'd just sell it for whatever the Russian one costs.
Thanks.
Mag well is tight and won't take waffle mags, otherwise a nice rifle. It wouldn't octs me anything, I'd just sell it for whatever the Russian one costs.
Thanks.
Have you tried sanding the mags?
MPi-KMS-72
10-27-09, 17:06
Mag well is tight and won't take waffle mags, otherwise a nice rifle. It wouldn't octs me anything, I'd just sell it for whatever the Russian one costs.
Thanks.
Vector used used parts kits to make their guns- didn't they? What is yours made from? In theory it might be an upgrade for you.
Alaskapopo
10-27-09, 17:07
I think they have the Midwest Industries one:
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/images/products/mi_ak4774hndgrd.gif
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=241
Stickman's review:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11666#post11666
Thanks.
pat
I've thought about sanding the mags, but I mean they REALLY won't go in.
Vector used used parts kits to make their guns- didn't they? What is yours made from? In theory it might be an upgrade for you.
Polish on an Armory (?) receiver. I think they built using used parts kits, doesn't look it though. If it's not costing me any money and the quality is there, it'd be kinda neat to have "Made in Russia" stamped on the side.
MPi-KMS-72
10-27-09, 17:48
I've thought about sanding the mags, but I mean they REALLY won't go in.
Polish on an Armory (?) receiver. I think they built using used parts kits, doesn't look it though. If it's not costing me any money and the quality is there, it'd be kinda neat to have "Made in Russia" stamped on the side.
The Polish made some of the nicest AKs out there IMHO. I think they easily rival any others in terms of how nicely they were made. Of course since they are all parts guns it really depends on how good a job Vecotor did on it.
Does your current AK have a side optic rail? That might be another advantage if you want one.
6 in on 1/2 dozen in the other- I think I'd have to sell the Vector and get the SGL21 though if it was me.
I was fortunate enough to flip my Vector underfolder for $1450 during the height of the Obomascare. Turned around and replaced it with an underfolder made by Allied Armaments with a Nodak receiver and polish kit for about $900 that was much higher quality all around.
I already have a SLG31 inbound, I'm gonna grab two SLG21s (one black, one OD Green) as soon as I submit my next order to KVar. These are the same prices WASRs go for so you just can't lose.
One day, sooner or later, these won't be as cheap or available. Those who got them will be glad they did.
This is going to put me at 30+ AK rifles. And to think back in 2001 I bought an Egyptian Maadi and thought it would be the only AK I'd ever need.
lol
Then of course I got a Intrac AK-74 and believed I was done since I had both 7.62 and 5.45x39.
Things seemed to have progressed from there.
:D
6 in on 1/2 dozen in the other- I think I'd have to sell the Vector and get the SGL21 though if it was me.
Only problem is with these SLG21s on the market at this price, that Vector is gonna be hard to move.
Only problem is with these SLG21s on the market at this price, that Vector is gonna be hard to move.
I've got it sold if I want to sell it for what the Russian one costs, no biggie.
I've got it sold if I want to sell it for what the Russian one costs, no biggie.
If it was me, given the mag issue with the Vector (and not sure about yours but on mine the safety hole was in the wrong location), I'd dump it and grab a SLG21.
Have you tried sanding the mags?
That shouldn't be required.
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 00:12
If it was me, given the mag issue with the Vector (and not sure about yours but on mine the safety hole was in the wrong location), I'd dump it and grab a SLG21.
I have a Vector and think it is a nice build! I would not sell it for what today's prices are bringing. I really like the Polish underfolders....... However that did not stop me from ordering 4 of the SGL-21's today! :D It's one of those deals where must have both! They are different animals in there own way.
T
I have a Vector and think it is a nice build!
T
A darn nice build, mine is, great fit, finish, and trigger. I may keep mine and throw on some wood for a more classic look (I have the polymer Classic model w/ slant brake). I got it because Larry Vickers said everyone should have an AK, big mistake, now I have almost as many as ARs.
I ordered one of the SGL21-61 today.
Thanks for the input guys.
Unfunny side note... My friend married a Russian girl who's brother works for Izhmash, they went back so she could visit her family and he got to tour the place and shoot some guns. They shoot on silhouette targets that are desert camo w/ American flag patches on the arm, guess the Cold War isn't THAT over.
I screwed up not going to Russia with them when I was invited.
That shouldn't be required.
LOL, a lot of things in firearms shouldn't be required, however it doesn't mean that they still aren't needed... Depending on the receiver used and the cut I have seen many circle 10's that needed to be sanded to fit. Out of the 40 I own, I probably had to sand 15 or so to get them to fit different rifles. My Vepr is a little tighter than most... Come to think of it my SGL required some sanding of waffle mags to get them to fit properly.
LOL, a lot of things in firearms shouldn't be required, however it doesn't mean that they still aren't needed... Depending on the receiver used and the cut I have seen many circle 10's that needed to be sanded to fit. Out of the 40 I own, I probably had to sand 15 or so to get them to fit different rifles. My Vepr is a little tighter than most... Come to think of it my SGL required some sanding of waffle mags to get them to fit properly.
The vector is built on a substandard Armory USA receiver.
The vector is built on a substandard Armory USA receiver.
Gotcha, sorry I missed your point. Aren't they the same as Global...? Did they have spotty quality? I know Derek at AZEX and I think Troy was using them for a while, I thought they were supposed to be decent receivers.:confused:
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 18:03
The vector is built on a substandard Armory USA receiver.
Substandard? Hardly.......They are excellent receivers as I have 2 top quality builds on them with no problems whatsoever! I have dozens of Nodak builds as well and have not had problems with any of them! You may have a receiver that is out of spec.....the magwell maybe?
T
Wasn't quite as cheap as $500 but I got my SGL-31 5.45x39 today and I couldn't be happier with it.
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2703/00000000107.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3428/00000000112.jpg
I even just happened to have a matching Izmash plum magazine in back to go with it.
:D
Gonna get moving on a couple SGL-21s as soon as I get my pennies in order.
Substandard? Hardly.......They are excellent receivers as I have 2 top quality builds on them with no problems whatsoever! I have dozens of Nodak builds as well and have not had problems with any of them! You may have a receiver that is out of spec.....the magwell maybe?
T
The only quality receivers are NDS or original com bloc (Polytec, Arsenal, FEG, Izhmash, etc)
Just because you have not had any problems doesn't mean there is not a problem.
All other aftermarket receivers are substandard. They do not have correct dimples, XY pin impressions, rail in spec, details specific to the country of origin, etc.
Any AK build on a parts kit where the original com bloc finish of the part kit was stripped and then reparked with the american receiver is also substandard.
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 19:24
The only quality receivers are NDS or original com bloc (Polytec, Arsenal, FEG, Izhmash, etc)
Just because you have not had any problems doesn't mean there is not a problem.
All other aftermarket receivers are substandard. They do not have correct dimples, XY pin impressions, rail in spec, details specific to the country of origin, etc.
Any AK build on a parts kit where the original com bloc finish of the part kit was stripped and then reparked with the american receiver is also substandard.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one! :D Yes Nodak's are nicer then AUSA's but they are not substandard by any means! Substandard would be Hesse, Vulcan, Bwest stuff etc.
T
The only quality receivers are NDS or original com bloc (Polytec, Arsenal, FEG, Izhmash, etc)
Just because you have not had any problems doesn't mean there is not a problem.
All other aftermarket receivers are substandard. They do not have correct dimples, XY pin impressions, rail in spec, details specific to the country of origin, etc.
Any AK build on a parts kit where the original com bloc finish of the part kit was stripped and then reparked with the american receiver is also substandard.
I am not sure that you are correct... I am pretty sure that Spud made Global and Amory receivers, hopefully Templar or TK will chime in shortly.... Is your gripe that they are not marked correctly? I also doubt that the builders who are using them would use them if they are "inferior" and risk their name being associated with them ...
Nothing wrong with the global trades receivers. Krebs, Vector, etc used massive amounts of them. My KTR-03 has thousands of rounds down the barrel.
I am not sure that you are correct...
I am very sure I am correct.
I am pretty sure that Spud made Global and Amory receivers, hopefully Templar or TK will chime in shortly.... Is your gripe that they are not marked correctly? I also doubt that the builders who are using them would use them if they are "inferior" and risk their name being associated with them ...
I'm talking about the 1.6mm receivers that have been used on many eastern european parts kits that should have a 1.0mm receiver that were made after the AWB died to fill a demand for AKs which was a stop gap solution until companies like Arsenal could get back to selling real AKs again.
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 19:47
I am not sure that you are correct... I am pretty sure that Spud made Global and Amory receivers, hopefully Templar or TK will chime in shortly.... Is your gripe that they are not marked correctly? I also doubt that the builders who are using them would use them if they are "inferior" and risk their name being associated with them ...
IIRC Elk River Tool and Die made them! According to Scott's stance on this anything other then a factory built receiver would be substandard including Nodak! I do not think this at all but logically none of the US made stuff are factory products. I would not be suprised however if heat treating. etc., was better on AUSA or Nodak compared to some of the Com Bloc stuff.
T
IIRC Elk River Tool and Die made them! According to Scott's stance on this anything other then a factory built receiver would be substandard including Nodak!
I said in an earlier post that NDS receivers were in spec. Quit trying to spin this to your advantage.
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 20:09
I said in an earlier post that NDS receivers were in spec. Quit trying to spin this to your advantage.
My AUSA receiver's are also in spec! I am not trying to spin anything here. I own both and you can never make me think an AUSA receiver is substandard. I actually own way more DCI's then anything but also find them both to be a good product. Sorry you had problems with AUSA stuff because most never have an issue with them. Vector built thousands of rifles with them and my Vector underfolder is one of my favorites. Ok I will stop now! :D
My AUSA receiver's are also in spec! I am not trying to spin anything here. I own both and you can never make me think an AUSA receiver is substandard. I actually own way more DCI's then anything but also find them both to be a good product. Sorry you had problems with AUSA stuff because most never have an issue with them. Vector built thousands of rifles with them and my Vector underfolder is one of my favorites. Ok I will stop now! :D
If your AUSA receiver is 1.6mm and it is built with eastern euro parts, it is not spec.
I thought Saiga only excepted Saiga mags...have these been converted or am I an idiot?
I think most of the global trades receivers produced where the 1mm variety. They function as well as any US made receiver. The three I've owned were all top notch.
Now that virtually all saigas have the dimples I'd buy one of them for any conversion, just because you're getting a 100% factory new Russian action. For a lot of classic or "correct" looking AK's they might not be the right choice, and you'd have to pretty much get a complete parts kit to matte onto them anyway.
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 22:20
I think most of the global trades receivers produced where the 1mm variety. They function as well as any US made receiver. The three I've owned were all top notch.
Now that virtually all saigas have the dimples I'd buy one of them for any conversion, just because you're getting a 100% factory new Russian action. For a lot of classic or "correct" looking AK's they might not be the right choice, and you'd have to pretty much get a complete parts kit to matte onto them anyway.
Yeah, they mostly were 1mm any 1.6mm would be for a Yugo, Chinese or RPK gun! :D
MachinegunT
10-28-09, 22:21
If your AUSA receiver is 1.6mm and it is built with eastern euro parts, it is not spec.
That would be the builders fault not the receiver. :cool:
Powder_Burn
10-28-09, 23:54
The 1.6mm receivers imported by Armory USA were designed by Ivan Kolev who was the chief engineer at Arsenal of Bulgaria for a decade. The 1.6mm receivers were produced on dies in Bulgaria by folks from the Circle 10 arsenal so I would not be concerned with them being substandard at all. Not 1.0mm spec - and for good reason. The idea was to fill the gap between 1.0 stamped and milled receivers. That said, there were issues with some rifles built on these receivers but the problems were rooted elsewhere.
Any AK build on a parts kit where the original com bloc finish of the part kit was stripped and then reparked with the american receiver is also substandard.
How is that substandard? Are you suggesting no American gun finish is up to the standard of communist block quality?
I can understand how most might not be "spec" but I think many American finishes are superior to some original AKs I've seen.
My Maadi for example is about as Russian as Russian gets outside of Russia and the finish looks like shit, which ironically makes it correct.
lol
Once the original receiver is torched or the rifle has an import mark on it, collectors value becomes what the market will bear. IE an amnesty registered vietnam bringback milled ak vs. a parts kit of similar or better condition on a bulgarian, chinese, or US milled receiver. Semi-auto clone rifles by definition have as much authenticity as the owner is willing to bestow on them unless they are unaltered factory imports. My last two rifles were 7.62x39 saigas converted to look like afghan-war AK-74's.
BTW, SteyrAUG, that 5.45 would look mighty good with some plum or laminate and a ribbed top cover on it.
http://i35.tinypic.com/2qk13cz.jpg
MachinegunT
10-29-09, 01:21
Once the original receiver is torched or the rifle has an import mark on it, collectors value becomes what the market will bear. IE an amnesty registered vietnam bringback milled ak vs. a parts kit of similar or better condition on a bulgarian, chinese, or US milled receiver. Semi-auto clone rifles by definition have as much authenticity as the owner is willing to bestow on them unless they are unaltered factory imports. My last two rifles were 7.62x39 saigas converted to look like afghan-war AK-74's.
BTW, SteyrAUG, that 5.45 would look mighty good with some plum or laminate and a ribbed top cover on it.
http://i35.tinypic.com/2qk13cz.jpg
Where have I seen that pic before! :D Very nice!
T
...The finish will run like mascara in certain conditions,...
I thought that was true for the Arsenal AKs, and not the Saiga made in Russia conversions?
Are you suggesting no American gun finish is up to the standard of communist block quality?
No and my point was clear.
Taking a com bloc kit and stripping the finish and mating it to an american receiver and then sand blasting the shit out of everything and reparking it is a cheap and lazy ass way of building an AK.
The original com bloc finish should be left intact and the receiver matched to the parts kit.
I am not saying the com bloc finish is technically better, I am saying it is more authentic.
No and my point was clear.
I am not saying the com bloc finish is technically better, I am saying it is more authentic.
I agree that it is more authentic being the original finish, I was simply taking issue with your suggestion that a refinished AK was substandard.
BTW, SteyrAUG, that 5.45 would look mighty good with some plum or laminate and a ribbed top cover on it.
Actually that is plum furniture with a plum mag, just shitty lighting.
;)
I agree that it is more authentic being the original finish, I was simply taking issue with your suggestion that a refinished AK was substandard.
How is it not substandard?
How is it not substandard?
Because it is easily possible to refinish a gun that protects it to the same standard as the original finish.
Substandard is a different animal than non spec or factory original.
I can take a brand new HK91 and strip off the finish and have the gun refinished by a competent gunsmith. It would no longer be an original finish, certainly would not be factory correct but the new finish could still perform the same function as the original factory finish to the same quality standard.
And given the quality of some AK finishes, the new finish often performs to a higher standard than the factory original finish. This ironically would make the original AK finish substandard when compared to the new one.
The only real argument about original finish on a parts kit vs. refinish is collector value. Original finishes are always more desirable to collectors, but that only applies to original guns. Once the gun is cut for a parts kit and put on a new receiver it no longer has any original gun collector value and only has preference for desirability (meaning guns built on Nokads are more desirable than guns built on Joeken receivers).
Now if you had an all original gun such as an AK import for example, the original finish is far more collectible. If I took my Maadi with it's commie block standard original finish and put a far superior finish on it I might improve the function of the finish but I would at the same time make it less collectible as it would no longer be original.
But as parts kit guns really aren't original guns, this isn't even a consideration. Additionally some of those parts kits are pretty worn with respect to the finish. And while some gun owners enjoy the look of a parts kit gun that has a little character you really can't increase or decrease it's value by refinishing or not refinishing it either way. You can only increase it's practicality with a new protective finish.
MPi-KMS-72
10-29-09, 17:58
I thought Saiga only excepted Saiga mags...have these been converted or am I an idiot?
They are converted.
MPi-KMS-72
10-29-09, 18:06
How is it not substandard?
substandard to whose standard? There are builders out there who can duplicate the original finish, and those standards for finish vary from country to country.
I agree there are a lot of crummy kit built guns out there. Taking an East German MPi-KM kit and building it on a US receiver(like an Elk River/Global with thos big ugly dimples) and then sandblasting and parkerizing the rifle is a real shame IMHO and I have seen it done.
Once the gun is cut for a parts kit and put on a new receiver it no longer has any original gun collector value and only has preference for desirability (meaning guns built on Nokads are more desirable than guns built on Joeken receivers).
But as parts kit guns really aren't original guns, this isn't even a consideration.
Bullshit.
Do you pay attention to what new and matching parts kits cost? A parts kit is to be treated the same as a regular gun regards to collector value.
Whether it is built up on a receiver or still in parts is irrelevant.
Bullshit.
Do you pay attention to what new and matching parts kits cost? A parts kit is to be treated the same as a regular gun regards to collector value.
Whether it is built up on a receiver or still in parts is irrelevant.
And bullshit right back.
A factory original HK91 has collector value. A HK build on a non factory receiver has NONE. It has value as a firearm in a desirable configuration but it is hardly "collectible."
I have about a dozen Bulgarian kits on Nodak receivers. They are wonderful rifles that in some cases are better built than some factory originals. But they are not collectible as they are not original firearms.
Perhaps one day, long after the next assault weapon ban, 922r build guns will become "collectible" but even then they won't be as collectible as factory original guns.
And with respect to parts kits specifically, they are not collectible. Expensive does NOT equal collectible. And the biggest factor in most cases is that "no longer importable" factory original barrel, the finish is almost of no concern except as an indicator of the condition of the kit and the wear it saw as a firearm.
If you take two identical AK kits and build both on Nodak receivers by the same smith in exactly the same way. The one with the original finish will not be worth a single dollar more than the one that was refinished. But depending upon the quality of the refinish, that rifle might be worth a bit more.
QuickStrike
10-29-09, 21:28
Are the muzzle brakes on the SGL-21's removable?
There seems to be no wobble/movement on mine compared to the SLR107FR's, and I still can't take it off... :o
Jeez, I'm sorry I even brought it up.
MachinegunT
10-29-09, 21:36
Are the muzzle brakes on the SGL-21's removable?
There seems to be no wobble/movement on mine compared to the SLR107FR's, and I still can't take it off... :o
Yes they are! :)
QuickStrike
10-29-09, 21:51
Yes they are! :)
Glad to hear.
I'll just stop dicking with it and shoot for now. It's on so tight that I'll probably have to hand it over to a local gunsmith later, if I decide that the comp is too loud and want a flash hider instead.
Will shoot it tomorrow to see if sights are really straight. :cool:
MachinegunT
10-29-09, 21:56
Glad to hear.
I'll just stop dicking with it and shoot for now. It's on so tight that I'll probably have to hand it over to a local gunsmith later, if I decide that the comp is too loud and want a flash hider instead.
Will shoot it tomorrow to see if sights are really straight. :cool:
Make sure that you clean the hell out of the threads with soapy water if you shoot corrosive out of it! That can weld those things on for good!
T
And with respect to parts kits specifically, they are not collectible. Expensive does NOT equal collectible. And the biggest factor in most cases is that "no longer importable" factory original barrel, the finish is almost of no concern except as an indicator of the condition of the kit and the wear it saw as a firearm.
Before the parts kit ban, a minty Bugly AK74 krink kit sold for $200, now you have to pay $1500.
If you take two identical AK kits and build both on Nodak receivers by the same smith in exactly the same way. The one with the original finish will not be worth a single dollar more than the one that was refinished. But depending upon the quality of the refinish, that rifle might be worth a bit more.
Hardly at all. Why do you you think Ted Marshall and other top builders retain the original parts kit finish? His builds sell for $1200 to $2000 or more.
I can't believe you are trying to argue that a refinished parts gun will be worth more than original finish. Give me one example where this is true...
Show me one example on gunbroker where a refinished parts gun is selling for more than $800
I have about a dozen Bulgarian kits on Nodak receivers. They are wonderful rifles that in some cases are better built than some factory originals. But they are not collectible as they are not original firearms.
I am fully aware that a complete factory original has the most value, compared to a parts build.
Before the parts kit ban, a minty Bugly AK74 krink kit sold for $200, now you have to pay $1500.
That doesn't make it collectible, just expensive.
Hardly at all. Why do you you think Ted Marshall and other top builders retain the original parts kit finish? His builds sell for $1200 to $2000 or more.
I can't believe you are trying to argue that a refinished parts gun will be worth more than original finish. Give me one example where this is true...
On an original gun, you are absolutely 100% guaranteed correct. On a gun with a non original US receiver, it doesn't make much difference at all.
Show me one example on gunbroker where a refinished parts gun is selling for more than $800
Six months ago people were paying that $800 for WASRs, doesn't exactly make them collectible. Now if you believe having the original finish on the parts kit for your 922r gun makes it superior to the same identical firearm that has been refinished, you are free to believe that. Hell some people believe chrome and gold plating make the gun worth more.
I just ain't buying it and don't see why I would spend any additional money when it isn't a factory original firearm in the first place.
That doesn't make it collectible, just expensive.
On an original gun, you are absolutely 100% guaranteed correct. On a gun with a non original US receiver, it doesn't make much difference at all.
The reality of the market doesn't support your position. Parts kits with original barrels in minty matching condition will continue to climb just like every other banned item.
Six months ago people were paying that $800 for WASRs, doesn't exactly make them collectible.
That is a completely separate set of circumstances for this. And it is also relative, everything else got pushed up $400 to $500 also so that completely refutes your point.
Now if you believe having the original finish on the parts kit for your 922r gun makes it superior to the same identical firearm that has been refinished, you are free to believe that. Hell some people believe chrome and gold plating make the gun worth more.
The reality of the market doesn't support this point.
I just ain't buying it and don't see why I would spend any additional money when it isn't a factory original firearm in the first place.
That is your opinion. You want to cheap out, and that is fine.
The bottom line is original finish in anything is always worth more than a refinish, period.
On an original gun, you are absolutely 100% guaranteed correct. On a gun with a non original US receiver, it doesn't make much difference at all.
Why does Ted Marshall keep the original finish intact on a parts build? Give a straight answer to this question.
Then tell me why his sell for $1200 to $2000 plus, when a vector sells for $500. If it doesn't matter as you said, why do his command 3 to 4 times as much money?
He has builds of his for sale on gunbroker from time to time, you can see this for yourself.
I'm waiting for an answer.
MachinegunT
10-29-09, 23:53
Why does Ted Marshall keep the original finish intact on a parts build? Give a straight answer to this question.
Then tell me why his sell for $1200 to $2000 plus, when a vector sells for $500. If it doesn't matter as you said, why do his command 3 to 4 times as much money?
He has builds of his for sale on gunbroker from time to time, you can see this for yourself.
I'm waiting for an answer.
Ted built both my Krinks and he refinished both with his own finish because the factory finish is shit! His is spot on to the original but much tougher! How many builds has Ted done for you out of curiosity??
Why does Ted Marshall keep the original finish intact on a parts build? Give a straight answer to this question.
Because there are apparently people foolish enough to think this adds significant value to a 922r parts gun.
The collector/shooter/repro markets aren't mutually exclusive, but the last two are much more subjective than the collector market, especially when dealing with a foreign factory made or imported rifle.
The SGL's are a pretty good deal, but if I bought one, I'd want to get it professionally refinished, which might cost $200-ish.
MPi-KMS-72
10-30-09, 07:49
I am fully aware that a complete factory original has the most value, compared to a parts build.
Factory original has little impact on some AK collector's value because many variants were never sold here commercially or were only here in extraordinarily small numbers as NFA weapons. That is why the PLO kits still go for so much $. That is why the Russian made Bulgarian parts kits go for a premium. It is why those Russian pellet guns made from AK74 parts went for so much $ before their importation was stopped. None of these are going to be built on original receivers (Unless you pulled apart a ban era Maadi to build a PLO Maadi on it.)
There is DEFINITELY an AK collector's market based around rare kit builds done by high quality gunsmiths. It is driven by the complete lack of factory original rifles in our market in the USA. If you could hop on gunbroker and buy a factory originalMPi-AKS-74N or PMKMS they'd be collectible for sure- but they aren't out there, thus for those who are real AK aficionados the highest tier of kit builds are collector's items. They define the collector's market and it is small but it does exist for kit builds.
Why does Ted Marshall keep the original finish intact on a parts build? Give a straight answer to this question.
Then tell me why his sell for $1200 to $2000 plus, when a vector sells for $500. If it doesn't matter as you said, why do his command 3 to 4 times as much money?
He has builds of his for sale on gunbroker from time to time, you can see this for yourself.
I'm waiting for an answer.
Because he does a lot better job than Vector and does little things like make sure the rivet head shape is correct. Having had several guns from Ted, I can assure you I wasn't paying to retain old combloc paint.
Ted also has worked hard to come up with a paint mix that replicates the qualities of Russian paint so any distinction between is very difficult to tell.
This seems like a pretty silly argument. A parts gun is a parts gun (and yes, I have some very expensive ones).
High Tower
10-30-09, 09:20
Much thanks for the heads up Iraq Ninja!!! Mine is on its way. It was pretty much exactly what I was looking for - I got the black NATO stock. Now I really can't wait till next year so I can shoot it.
Because there are apparently people foolish enough to think this adds significant value to a 922r parts gun.
So us that are building exact clones like this of Ekie's (something that you are incapable of putting a project like this together yourself)
http://marshall-arms.com/Builds.php
We are all foolish and don't know what we are doing?
Is that what you are trying to say?
Misc Ex-Member
10-30-09, 11:08
This little pissing match - in a tech forum I might add - is growing tiresome.
. Having had several guns from Ted, I can assure you I wasn't paying to retain old combloc paint.
That is your choice and opinion.
This little pissing match - in a tech forum I might add - is growing tiresome.
I completely agree. It's ruining a good thread about a great deal with all this obnoxious/childish bickering. If they want to argue email each other. I'm sick of reading it, as I'm sure many others are. To get back on topic- I can't wait to get my new SGL21-62 next week :D
I too have an SGL21 on the way. Can someone go into more detail about the issues with the finish? It's an AK, so to me a few blemishes are acceptable, but the mentions of the finish running, etc has me a little concerned.
Could someone go into a little more detail about under what conditions the finish has issues, and what would be an effective fix? Krylon, Duracoat, Alumahide, etc...
Thanks!
I too have an SGL21 on the way. Can someone go into more detail about the issues with the finish? It's an AK, so to me a few blemishes are acceptable, but the mentions of the finish running, etc has me a little concerned.
Could someone go into a little more detail about under what conditions the finish has issues, and what would be an effective fix? Krylon, Duracoat, Alumahide, etc...
Thanks!
I'm not really concerned about it, especially since they're only $499 but I am curious about it. I heard not to use anything other than CLP but a few people said they even had issues with that making the finish come off. They said it's parked underneath but that its painted over so the finish coming off is not a big deal but just looks ugly. This will be my second AK but first Arsenal so I'd also like to know others experiences as well.
I too have an SGL21 on the way. Can someone go into more detail about the issues with the finish? It's an AK, so to me a few blemishes are acceptable, but the mentions of the finish running, etc has me a little concerned.
Could someone go into a little more detail about under what conditions the finish has issues, and what would be an effective fix? Krylon, Duracoat, Alumahide, etc...
Thanks!
Quite honestly I've been selling a bunch of the SGL31s (I assume the 21s have the exact same finish) and I don't know what they are talking about. Look pretty nice compared to most AKs and I haven't had any run when I cleaned them. Maybe Gunscrubber will do it but I don't go near anything with that stuff.
Gunscrubber works great on my BCG. You've had problems with Gunscrubber?
Quite honestly I've been selling a bunch of the SGL31s (I assume the 21s have the exact same finish) and I don't know what they are talking about. Look pretty nice compared to most AKs and I haven't had any run when I cleaned them. Maybe Gunscrubber will do it but I don't go near anything with that stuff.
Alaskapopo
10-30-09, 16:59
Gunscrubber works great on my BCG. You've had problems with Gunscrubber?
I use Gunscrubber to rinse off the solvent I use to clean the guns. Basically as a degreaser before I lube the weapon up. I did however have it strip the finish off of a friends Para P14 I was cleaning about 12 years ago. It was the finish on the frame. That has been the only issue I have had with it.
Pat
MachinegunT
10-30-09, 19:14
I just got the tracking number for the 4 I ordered and they will be here on Nov 3rd I will post pics when I pick them up. I only use CLP and very hot soapy water to clean my AK's. Anytime I get a new one I let it soak in CLP for at least 24 hours or so then air dry and it seems to protect the cheap paint pretty well. Realize though that if you use the rifle it will wear off. I actually like the look of a well used AK :D Gives it character! Some of my favorite rifles are BFPU's!
T
Gunscrubber works great on my BCG. You've had problems with Gunscrubber?
I've seen it strip some finishes, melt some plastics and destroy some beautiful bluing. Luckily none of them were my guns. I've got a few AKs I wouldn't mind hosing down with it, but I can clean them just fine without it.
The only time I ever used Gunscrubber was on a rifle that somebody had winter camoed with white duct tape and left it on for a couple years. It was a mess. I used gunscrubber to completely loosen and dissolve the adhesive which was all over the gun and then quickly wiped it down and doused it with Break Free to protect it for any detrimental effects of the Gunscrubber.
Combloc paint was not designed to withstand Gunscrubber.
Use it at your own risk, it will strip Bulgarian, Polish, and Russian paint off very well.
I do not use Gunscrubber on my firearms.
Sounds like there is little to worry about then.
I'm not concerned about it getting beat up, just don't want it rusting up or anything from a crappy finish.
-RD62
Anyone purchased one of these? Pics and a quick review would be appreciated.
Who makes a side rail mount that will hold zero for social events?
Anyone purchased one of these? Pics and a quick review would be appreciated.
Who makes a side rail mount that will hold zero for social events?
I've purchased and it was supposed to ship today, so I don't have it in hand yet...
Combloc paint was not designed to withstand Gunscrubber.
Use it at your own risk, it will strip Bulgarian, Polish, and Russian paint off very well.
So would that make those original AK finishes...substandard?
:D
Being that I'm still very new to the AK side of things, what are some decent mags that I can pick up while I'm waiting for mine to come in? Are the Romanian surplus mags at AIM GTG?
[ETA] Looks like aim is sold out of the Romanian mags now but just got some surplus European steel mags.
Has the bakelite 5.45 mag supply dried up completely?
Being that I'm still very new to the AK side of things, what are some decent mags that I can pick up while I'm waiting for mine to come in? Are the Romanian surplus mags at AIM GTG?
[ETA] Looks like aim is sold out of the Romanian mags now but just got some surplus European steel mags.
Take a look at this.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=40068
Has the bakelite 5.45 mag supply dried up completely?
They are out there, they just are pretty expensive these days.
Take a look at this.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=40068
Thanks! That was exactly the type of info I was looking for.
Are they getting any more railed versions in?
Jeez, I'm sorry I even brought it up.
Dont be..it was a valid point. Just listen to all of it and take the good with the bad, there is a lot of good advice in all this. I got dragged into a (insert four letter word) swinging disscussion a short time ago and it was uncharacteristically not me on these forums...went way off topic from the suject matter just because I let a guy get under my skin.
I will also be ordering a KVAR soon just sucks I missed out on the railed models (snooze and loose). :D
I use Gunscrubber to rinse off the solvent I use to clean the guns. Basically as a degreaser before I lube the weapon up. I did however have it strip the finish off of a friends Para P14 I was cleaning about 12 years ago. It was the finish on the frame. That has been the only issue I have had with it.
Pat
:mad:
Yeah...thanks for the trip down memory lane...my very first firearm and my very first day shooting and cleaning it (curls into fetal position and sucking thumb).
Kidding of course..but you and the P-14 did not get along...:p
Are they getting any more railed versions in?
I was told there will be no more railed versions in the near future. Supposedly this is just a temporary sale (2-3 weeks or until inventory is gone). This info came from Atlantic firearms who is one of their main dealers.
No and my point was clear.
Taking a com bloc kit and stripping the finish and mating it to an american receiver and then sand blasting the shit out of everything and reparking it is a cheap and lazy ass way of building an AK.
The original com bloc finish should be left intact and the receiver matched to the parts kit.
I am not saying the com bloc finish is technically better, I am saying it is more authentic.
These SGL21-xx don't have a com bloc finish, correct? Dosen't kvar Las Vegas refinish them during / after the conversion?
These SGL21-xx don't have a com bloc finish, correct? Dosen't kvar Las Vegas refinish them during / after the conversion?
Nope, standard Russian finish.
mkmckinley
11-02-09, 15:50
Well I hauled off and ordered one, I just can't resist anything that's OD green. Any opinions on what optic mount to pick up?
Well I hauled off and ordered one, I just can't resist anything that's OD green. Any opinions on what optic mount to pick up?
Believe it or not I have found that the standard Aimpoint mount works best on a Ultimak with a T1. WARNING if you order the T1 from LaRue you do NOT get the mount!
Here is a pic of the setup. The back rifle is the SGL
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1103.jpg
mkmckinley
11-02-09, 16:00
That's a great looking setup. Does the rail hold a zero attached to the gas tube like that?
QuickStrike
11-02-09, 16:08
That's a great looking setup. Does the rail hold a zero attached to the gas tube like that?
The rail IS the gas tube it replaces. Bolts down onto the barrel so it's pretty secure...
That's a great looking setup. Does the rail hold a zero attached to the gas tube like that?
Thank you, it is great! I have gone through 5700 rounds and a Vickers course and it has held perfectly! I took the one off the SGL and used it on my MRP, but have kept one dedicated for the SA M 7 Carbine.
Well I hauled off and ordered one, I just can't resist anything that's OD green. Any opinions on what optic mount to pick up?
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16457&highlight=slr-106fr
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16457&highlight=slr-106fr
Show off!:p In fairness you are the one who helped me get mine squared away!
Nope, standard Russian finish.
Why does Tantal say this (http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=930381&highlight=refinish#930381)?
"Modern Russian and modern Bulgarian AK's are finished with different substances. The oriiginal Russian finish is tougher than the Bulgarian paint, both chemically and physically. If you want to know what a true modern AK-74M finish looks like, check an unmodified hunting style Saiga rifle. If any currently used finishes among these various manufacturers is the same as another, then Arsenal in Las Vegas might be using what Arsenal in Bulgaria uses. When Arsenal converts these SGL's (adding military style trigger guards and FBS's and so forth), it is fairly easy to tell that they refinish them. I guess you guys already knew this, but I thought I would mention it."
Shrugs.......
Not the ones I've seen. Arsenal Inc. uses a very nice powder coat finish on the M5 and M7 series, but the stamped guns retain the original finishes....
The SGL-31 that I transferred for a member had a standard Russian paint finish.
The Bulgarian and Russian finishes hold up well to rust and corrosion, and abrasion, but were not designed to hold up to hard Western solvents like Shooter's Choice, or aerosol sprays like Gunscrubber.
Shrugs.......
Not the ones I've seen. Arsenal Inc. uses a very nice powder coat finish on the M5 and M7 series, but the stamped guns retain the original finishes....
The SGL-31 that I transferred for a member had a standard Russian paint finish.
The Bulgarian and Russian finishes hold up well to rust and corrosion, and abrasion, but were not designed to hold up to hard Western solvents like Shooter's Choice, or aerosol sprays like Gunscrubber.
Thanks. I'm going to stop worrying about the finish.
I've got one of the PLUM , NATO length stock models on the way. As busy as they seem to be....... I don't expect it to even ship until Wed or Thu. For the price3 and the decent quality...tough too pass up.
Classic Arms is doing some crazy ONE DAY sales on AK's this entire month. Todays AK is on sale for $349!!! The prices are dropping.
After the last several months of shortages on ammo and components. And the crazy price gouging.......Ya Gotta love the GOOD side of that "supply & demand" thing.
And to add to the AK finish discussion...I've had very good results using BALLISTOL. After a HOT soap and water cleaning I spray things down and it displaces any water thats in nooks and cranies. Brownells sells it.
FN in MT
K-VAR rep stated this is a one-time deal until inventory is gone.
What exactly does Arsenal do to these rifles to make them 922R compliant?
mkmckinley
11-02-09, 23:02
I think many, like myself, may have caught the AK bug from this thread. Now if we only knew what to feed it. I tried a few searches but couldn't find all that much information. I was hoping some of you guys with more experience shooting 7.62X39 could offer some advice so I started a thread in the ammo thread. Hopefully it will serve as an adjunct to this one.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=487664#post487664
Alaskapopo
11-04-09, 03:31
Me and Alaskacop just ordered one. I also ordered the MI rail system.
Will post pics when they arrive.
Pat
I think many, like myself, may have caught the AK bug from this thread. Now if we only knew what to feed it. I tried a few searches but couldn't find all that much information. I was hoping some of you guys with more experience shooting 7.62X39 could offer some advice so I started a thread in the ammo thread. Hopefully it will serve as an adjunct to this one.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=487664#post487664
I purposely went with a 5.45x39 on my first AK as I wanted to try that ctg, and it's the cheapest ammo out there. Tins of 1080 rds can be had for roughly $160 plus shipping. within a few weeks ammo prices started dropping. Atlantic Firearms had it for $169 a tim shipped anywhere in the US. And the most recent deal is Century Arms has a DEALER price of $120 a tin plus shipping.
IF You can get a Dealer to order from Century. Buy $500 worth of goods and Century ships for FREE. Buy four 1080 rd tins and a mag or two and you have ELEVEN CENT a rd AK ammo.
7.62x39 is another story. Still fairly high compared to two years back. It has dropped to the $200 for 1K area though.
Hold off on a big order of 7.62x39 the prices ARE coming down.
FN in MT
Most, if not all, 5.45x39 ammo is corrosive. Post-shooting will require a thorough cleaning job. Once the surplus supply dries up you'll be restricted to what is commercially available, which is not much. Perhaps a smarter move would be to go with a .223/5.56 AK if you're enamored with the ~.22 projectile. There are quite a few superior loads offered in the 5.56 caliber.
Notwithstanding the above, the 5.45x39 projectile supposedly offers good penetration, and the Russian military adopted it.
I just got mine in yesterday. Looks awesome! Here's a pic of it (SGL21-62) with my Lancaster Russian Red.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/brandoneh297/AK47s002.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/brandoneh297/AK47s001.jpg
Most, if not all, 5.45x39 ammo is corrosive. Post-shooting will require a thorough cleaning job. Once the surplus supply dries up you'll be restricted to what is commercially available, which is not much. Perhaps a smarter move would be to go with a .223/5.56 AK if you're enamored with the ~.22 projectile. There are quite a few superior loads offered in the 5.56 caliber.
Notwithstanding the above, the 5.45x39 projectile supposedly offers good penetration, and the Russian military adopted it.
Hornady is coming out with non corrosive, soft point 5.45x39 offering. Forget if it was a std hollow point or one of the V-Max slugs with the little plastic nose piece. They just released some 7.62x39 too.
The corrosive priming IS an issue. Unless you live in the desert one really does need to attend to the gun fairly quickly...depending on RH. But to steal a phrase from someone else regarding the clean up after corrosive......"It's not voodoo".
A quick dousing with hot soapy water, then a shot from the air compressor...then a liberal application of Ballistol from a spray can. End of problem.
For eleven cents a round I'll put up with the clean up. I can't get 5.56 anywhere near that price for plinking.
I think there are many millions of rds of 5.45 around the World. Don't think we are going to run out any time soon.
Just ordered six, 1080 rd spam cans at $120 per can...SHIPPED to my FFL.
FN in MT
Beautiful rifles.
1- How would you compare the Saiga to the Lancaster?
2- Does the Saiga have the Arsenal markings?
3- How about a plum, bulgy mag? :)
I just got mine in yesterday. Looks awesome! Here's a pic of it (SGL21-62) with my Lancaster Russian Red.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/brandoneh297/AK47s002.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/brandoneh297/AK47s001.jpg
Great price on the 1,080 rd cases.
1- What does the 5.45 do better than the 5.56?
2- Is the soft steel core 5.45 comparable to 5.56 AP or Green Tip?
3- What is easier to get: 5.56 AK mags or 5.45 AK mags?
Hornady is coming out with non corrosive, soft point 5.45x39 offering. Forget if it was a std hollow point or one of the V-Max slugs with the little plastic nose piece. They just released some 7.62x39 too.
The corrosive priming IS an issue. Unless you live in the desert one really does need to attend to the gun fairly quickly...depending on RH. But to steal a phrase from someone else regarding the clean up after corrosive......"It's not voodoo".
A quick dousing with hot soapy water, then a shot from the air compressor...then a liberal application of Ballistol from a spray can. End of problem.
For eleven cents a round I'll put up with the clean up. I can't get 5.56 anywhere near that price for plinking.
I think there are many millions of rds of 5.45 around the World. Don't think we are going to run out any time soon.
Just ordered six, 1080 rd spam cans at $120 per can...SHIPPED to my FFL.
FN in MT
I just got mine in yesterday. Looks awesome! Here's a pic of it (SGL21-62) with my Lancaster Russian Red.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/brandoneh297/AK47s002.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k60/brandoneh297/AK47s001.jpg
How long did they take to ship from your order? I ordered on Tues/Wed, called to make sure they got my FFL and they said it would go out Fri and they'd e-mail me a tracking number. I haven't heard jack yet, they aren't answering their phones or responding to e-mail and a voice mail.
I'm not in any rush mind you, but I have stuff waiting and was trying to do one transfer.
Great price on the 1,080 rd cases.
1- What does the 5.45 do better than the 5.56?
2- Is the soft steel core 5.45 comparable to 5.56 AP or Green Tip?
3- What is easier to get: 5.56 AK mags or 5.45 AK mags?
YMMV ........ my opinion only....No warranty expressed or implied
1. Probably quite similar to the GI 5.56 I'd imagine. I'm not interested in how it works in soft tissue as my sole use is as a plinking round on steel plates, or rocks out to 500 yds or so.
THE big deal to me is It is available for roughly half the cost or less of GI type 5.56mm.
2. No idea?? The core seems to be fairly soft as I do occasionally find small discs near my steel plates...the 5.45 cores.
3. The various Surplus sites have both mags available. The AK mags are available as aftermarket or as new/used military mags. I've paid $15 on average for Military mags and as high as $30 for new military mags. They all seem to work quite well.
I've never owned or shot a 5.56 in the AK platform...but mags ARE available.
FN in MT
KVAR customer service sucks. They don't answer e-mails and getting them to pick up the phone (and have a clue) isn't much easier.
Still, at this price I may pick up another 7.62 to go along with my VZ-58 and AMD-65.
How long did they take to ship from your order? I ordered on Tues/Wed, called to make sure they got my FFL and they said it would go out Fri and they'd e-mail me a tracking number. I haven't heard jack yet, they aren't answering their phones or responding to e-mail and a voice mail.
I'm not in any rush mind you, but I have stuff waiting and was trying to do one transfer.
I'm in the same boat. I did exactly like you and have called twice to confirm all is well. I too was told last Thurs that my order was set to go out on Friday. When I didn't get an email by Mon afternoon I called back. I was again told all is well, but that they had over 1000 orders to fill/ship but mine was one of the next to go out, and should ship Tues. Still nothing.
In total I have emailed twice and called twice. The first email was asking how long this sale was going on. That email was replied to promptly but the second has gone unanswered. Both phone calls were answered promptly and both reps were very courteous and thanked me for my patience.
If I haven't seen anything by the end of the week I may call back.
-RD62
mkmckinley
11-04-09, 20:52
they're probably swamped with "where's my gun" calls and emails, so getting behind is not surprising. I'd rather have them filling orders than talking on the phone.
they're probably swamped with "where's my gun" calls and emails, so getting behind is not surprising. I'd rather have them filling orders than talking on the phone.
They are and they stated that when I called on Friday, I think she said they had 500 orders. Their main problem, according to the lady, is that tons of people ordered the rifles and then sent in an FFL w/o a name or order number causing a ton of confusion.
Still, they charged my card, they should ship the item.
No biggie, I'll live.
Alaskapopo
11-04-09, 21:34
Debating on what optic to put on mine. Either an Aimpoint H1 or a Fast Fire? The AImpoint is a much better optic I know just looking at money? How is the cheek weld with the Aimpoint installed?
Pat
they're probably swamped with "where's my gun" calls and emails, so getting behind is not surprising. I'd rather have them filling orders than talking on the phone.
This is why I have refrained from calling. I ordered last wed. and it sounded like they guy who answered normally doesn't do phone work(I want to say he was a warehouse worker), but he did find the FFL who's doing the transfer while I was ordering, so I guess all should be well. I figure If I don't get anything by next tues. or so, then I'll get worried and call.
Debating on what optic to put on mine. Either an Aimpoint H1 or a Fast Fire? The AImpoint is a much better optic I know just looking at money? How is the cheek weld with the Aimpoint installed?
Pat
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16457
:cool:
High Tower
11-04-09, 23:36
I ordered mine online last Wed (I think), got an email confirmation right away, and a tracking number the next day. It arrived at our shop yesterday so no complaints from me.
Debating on what optic to put on mine. Either an Aimpoint H1 or a Fast Fire? The AImpoint is a much better optic I know just looking at money? How is the cheek weld with the Aimpoint installed?
Pat
I would add that a micro Aimpoint mounted on an Ultimak has a very tight and low cheek weld. It's very similar to that for an AR if not a hair lower to a 1/3 co-witness, and switching back and forth is not a problem.
Littlelebowski
11-05-09, 12:22
If you have the coin, go with the H1 on the Ultimak. I really don't see the point of spending extra to get NVG capability and dive deeper underwater with the T1 but there's folks on this forum that spent the $100 or so extra just to get the different paint finish on the T1. That is no longer an issue.
Looks like K-Var raised their prices this morning on the 7.62 fixed stock rifles. I got mine just under the wire...
Thats Murphy for you....
Yeah their prices went slightly up but they have railed models back in stock (both Nato and Warsaw stocked). Figures after I ordered mine (non-railed) which should be arriving tomorrow...:confused:
Alaskapopo
11-05-09, 20:15
NO worries the price on the rail models is more expensive than buying the standard 499 model that we got plus 114 for the rail. that is what I did.
Pat
Ordered last week on Thursday or Friday and my SGL-21 arrived today at my FFL.
Plum furniture,with NATO length stock. Nice black finish, and the Russian proofs look nice as well. Heck of a gun for the money.
Side mount too. Now to buy yet ANOTHER Aimpoint. My collection of La Rue Tactical freebies is starting to mount up. My Beverage Entry Tool dillos are starting to look like a small herd on my desk.
Anyone on the fence regarding ordering one of these rifles...I'd jump on one quickly as this isn't going to last much longer.
FN in MT
Plum on the way... I just couldn't resist at this price. :cool:
One of the advantages of the Ultimak/Micro Aimpoint set up, is the H-1/T-1 comes with its own mount that allows co-witnessing with the standard sights. Looking at the MI railed system, it is quite a bit higher that the Ultimak, which may or may not compromise co-witnessing.
Alaskapopo
11-05-09, 23:52
One of the advantages of the Ultimak/Micro Aimpoint set up, is the H-1/T-1 comes with its own mount that allows co-witnessing with the standard sights. Looking at the MI railed system, it is quite a bit higher that the Ultimak, which may or may not compromise co-witnessing.
Yea I think I screwed up when I ordered the MI rails from them. It looks like they may sit too high for my liking. But I will know when it comes in.
Pat
Yea I think I screwed up when I ordered the MI rails from them. It looks like they may sit too high for my liking. But I will know when it comes in.
Pat
After foolishly recommending a railed version to a buddy, I got to handle it yesterday... I did not care for it after handling it yesterday when he picked it up. I found it very muzzle heavy and looking at the rail I don't see anyway that you will be able to get any type of co with it. The rail appeared to be well made but I dont think it is as good a setup as the UM/T1.
Lesson learned. Because it appears to be a good value, does not mean that it is "as good"...
After foolishly recommending a railed version to a buddy, I got to handle it yesterday... I did not care for it after handling it yesterday when he picked it up. I found it very muzzle heavy and looking at the rail I don't see anyway that you will be able to get any type of co with it. The rail appeared to be well made but I dont think it is as good a setup as the UM/T1.
Lesson learned. Because it appears to be a good value, does not mean that it is "as good"...
I'm thinking a cowitness may be possible if one were to set the rear sight at 1000m and raise the front sight a bunch(most like you'd need to have a real tall one made). Yeah, the rail does ruin an ak's balance. Just wait until you star sticking stuff on it.
I'm thinking a cowitness may be possible if one were to set the rear sight at 1000m and raise the front sight a bunch(most like you'd need to have a real tall one made). Yeah, the rail does ruin an ak's balance. Just wait until you star sticking stuff on it.
I guess maybe.... The UM/T1 does not effect the handling of an AK in the same manner that the MI does, thats for sure... Like I said the rail seems to be a well made piece of equipment, I just don't think that it works well on this platform... Others may disagree, I am just offering my thoughts and opinions.
I guess maybe.... The UM/T1 does not effect the handling of an AK in the same manner that the MI does, thats for sure... Like I said the rail seems to be a well made piece of equipment, I just don't think that it works well on this platform... Others may disagree, I am just offering my thoughts and opinions.
I wholeheartedly agree that the UM/T1 is better. I went with the MI rail since I needed to mount an aimpoint 9000sc(it's big) and a light. The MI seemed to be my best option for the price. If I had the money I would certainly go with the UM/T1 setup with an offset light. If I can save enough, I might do this on my SGL-21.
crusader377
11-12-09, 15:31
Although I wasn't planning to get an AK, after researching these I could not pass up on price of these rifles and ordered one during lunch. Can't wait to shoot it. This will my first AK and I have not fired one in nearly 7 years since the Army where I did a familiarization fire on one.
What were these running before their sale and during the AWB scare?
I might have to pick up a black one...
Got the same email, and yes it is one hell of a deal. I already have a SGL-21 that I paid much more for... It is a great rifle and well worth the price of admission. I am a little pissed that they could drop the price by almost 50% after they were selling them at such a high price though.:mad: I like the looks of the railed offering too.
What were these running before their sale and during the AWB scare?
I might have to pick up a black one...
825-925 +/-
Serpico1985
11-16-09, 16:46
Well, I just placed my order with K-VAR for a SGL21-61 and a spare 30round mag. This will by my first AK pattern rifle. I was on the fence about getting one and told myself if I can find a quality one for a good deal I'd get it. Then I saw this thread, and got the OK from the better half (surprising since I just got an AR about two weeks ago).
Anyway, lots of great info on here and I appreciate the guys who know more than most of us sharing their educated opinions.
By the way, I called and spoke to someone in sales at K-VAR and got through on the first try to make sure supplies were gtg before I placed my order.
Ordered an SGL21 on Saturday afternoon, got my tracking number a few minutes ago. Not too shabby, I gotta say.
I see there prices went up! :mad:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=353
I see there prices went up! :mad:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=353
About $20 or so depending upon model. Hardly a make or break consideration.
mkmckinley
11-18-09, 02:10
About $20 or so depending upon model. Hardly a make or break consideration.
I ended up saving money by buying it when it was five hundo then just squandering the savings by buying a bunch of the overpriced circle 10 mags. Why do I need a double basic load for a range toy? In the end, if you shot a lot the cost of the ammo dwarves the purchase price of the gun you shoot it through.
Serpico1985
11-18-09, 16:46
Day after I ordered it they went up to $549, great timing.
Moose-Knuckle
11-19-09, 10:12
I took delivery of my SLG 21-61 yesterday on my way home from work. For $519 I had it shipped to my FFL from Atlantic firearms. The rifle shipped with a cleaning rod, 5rd mag, test target, an Arsenal Las Vegas flyer, a "service manual", and "certificate" both from the factory in English and Russian.
The fit and finish are superb (for a factory AK), everything is nice and tight. Sights are not canted, factory FCG is just that and will be replaced with a G2 in short order. My shepard's crook is sticking out of the mag well so I will also replace that with a retainer plate when the FCG is swaped. No rounds down range yet.
I'm pleased with mine, the finished is actually nicer than my Arsenal 107... I think I may take the UM and H-1 off and install it on the SGL21-61.
crowkiller
11-20-09, 10:28
I took delivery of my SLG 21-61 yesterday on my way home from work. For $519 I had it shipped to my FFL from Atlantic firearms. The rifle shipped with a cleaning rod, 5rd mag, test target, an Arsenal Las Vegas flyer, a "service manual", and "certificate" both from the factory in English and Russian.
The fit and finish are superb (for a factory AK), everything is nice and tight. Sights are not canted, factory FCG is just that and will be replaced with a G2 in short order. My shepard's crook is sticking out of the mag well so I will also replace that with a retainer plate when the FCG is swaped. No rounds down range yet.
Why are you switching to the G2 fcg? What advantage does the retainer plate give?
Moose-Knuckle
11-20-09, 10:57
Why are you switching to the G2 fcg? What advantage does the retainer plate give?
It's not a question of advantages. To me it's merely preference, I do not like the feel of the factory Arsenal "2-stage" trigger. I have heard that after a few hundred rounds it will smooth out but I love the G2 in my other rifles. The retainer plate makes life a little simpler when installing/disassembling the FCG.
crusader377
11-21-09, 00:01
Just picked mine up today. Rifle is absolutely first rate. It even came with a the 25 meter test target with a 3 round grouping in one hole. My FFL was very impressed with the rifle as well and thought it was the nicest AK that he has seen in a long time.
I just got my SGL21-61 today and it is a beauty! Although it only came with 1 5 round magazine and the usual instruction manual, it still is a smokin' deal! My local dealer here in Sin City worked out a deal with Arsenal for $490 per rifle. I paid cash so my dealer knocked off another $10, so I paid $480 per rifle (I bought 2 of these puppies!). I got first pick of the rifles since I was already paid in full and I was also the first one there after my dealer opened shop (The lower price was based on a group buy). Everything was nice and straight, front and rear sights were centered, and the finish is beautiful! I hope Arsenal starts having more of these "stimulus sales". I'd love to add an SLR106-51 to my collection, and convert it to an SBR!
Picked up my SGL21 last night, everything's great except for the safety is very stiff and left a deep scratch when I first flicked it from safe to fire. (or vice versa)
mkmckinley
11-21-09, 12:55
If you look at how the safety you'll see that it holds itself in place by a little stamped dimple which engages the receiver. It pretty much has to scratch the receiver. The same thing will happen when you take off the gas tube. I wouldn't worry about it.
Picked up my SGL21 last night, everything's great except for the safety is very stiff and left a deep scratch when I first flicked it from safe to fire. (or vice versa)
It's a common condition called "brand new". The scratch is referred to as the "death scratch", rendering your rifle useless, because now it's used and ugly. Post it up for sale at the price you got it for, and see how fast it sells. That will take care of all your heartbreak. :(
Picked up my SGL21 last night, everything's great except for the safety is very stiff and left a deep scratch when I first flicked it from safe to fire. (or vice versa)
That is a defective AK. Based on your description, it is very likely it will Kaboom.
I'll take it off your hands for spare parts for $200.
If you look at how the safety you'll see that it holds itself in place by a little stamped dimple which engages the receiver. It pretty much has to scratch the receiver. The same thing will happen when you take off the gas tube. I wouldn't worry about it.
Ah, thanks. I saw the two dimples but was worried the safety was too tight or needed to be raised up a hair somehow.
It's my first AK of any sort, I'm pleasantly surprised at how light the rifle is. I'm six-foot and the Warsaw-length stock is just right. Down the road I wouldn't mind finding a Warsaw-length side-folder, but this will work for now.
mkmckinley
11-21-09, 18:03
Same for me. I couldn't decide but someone on THR had posted the actual measurements of the Warsaw and NATO lengths and I picked the Warsaw because it was closer to where I like my M4 stock.
Ah, thanks. I saw the two dimples but was worried the safety was too tight or needed to be raised up a hair somehow.
If you are going to train with the rifle, bend it by hand to fit. If its just a plinker or talking point... Leave it be.
I just got my SGL21-62 and I have to say I'm very impressed, now if I can just get it out to the range. :(
With the impending increase in inflation, these rifles are sure to just go up and up. Not to mention what would happen if any new gun control legislation gets passed.
On a side note, the Hornady V-max is an excellent feed for these.
http://www.hornady.com/store/7.62X39-123-gr-V-MAX/
mrwickwire
11-22-09, 14:52
It is nice to see that they are finally offering reasonably priced AK's. Does anyone know what they did to bring the price down?
It is nice to see that they are finally offering reasonably priced AK's. Does anyone know what they did to bring the price down?
They hired monkeys that were laid of by Century Arms.
Just a heads up.
My rep advises me that there will be yet another price increase in Dec.
Yep, K-var sent out a email to that effect.
Any more reviews of the SGL21 series?
mkmckinley
11-26-09, 01:03
I got mine and am really happy with it. It seems well made and the trigger is actually good. It has a lot of creep in the first stage but the break is really crisp. It's a much better situation than any standard creepy-ass single stage M4 trigger I've used. I'm really happy with the purchase.
It appears that some customers have received rifles with canted front sights.
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=115022&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
How easy is it to adjust the FSB if presented with a canted FSB?
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=491038#post491038
This is making me feel uneasy about purchasing these without inspection...
It really depends on how much 'cant' we're talking.
It's entirely normal for military AK's to have some cant in the front sight. As long as the sights can be dialed in and you can zero the weapon, it's not that bit a deal other than aesthetics. I've been into AK's since the mid 80's and I've seen a bunch that looked bad, but shot great.
If the front sight is canted a wee bit, take it to the range with a proper sight adjustment tool that allows you to move the front sight drum for windage. Try dialing it in. If you still have adjustment left, I wouldn't worry about it at all.
I have in fact seen AK's that the front sights looked dead on but you couldn't zero them because something else was screwed up in manufacturing (sometimes a bent US stamped receiver).
Anyway, Arsenal would take care of it if you get one that you can't sight in.
I'd honestly relax. I'm saying this as a guy who's seen a bunch of AK's over the years. You have to realize that they aren't AR's, and there's a lot of tolerance built into the system.
I know that's not coming across very well reading it on the net, but it's usually a non issue.
Templar,
What is a proper sight adjustment tool? Anyone in particular you'd recommend?
Thanks for your comments, they're reassuring.
It really depends on how much 'cant' we're talking.
It's entirely normal for military AK's to have some cant in the front sight. As long as the sights can be dialed in and you can zero the weapon, it's not that bit a deal other than aesthetics. I've been into AK's since the mid 80's and I've seen a bunch that looked bad, but shot great.
If the front sight is canted a wee bit, take it to the range with a proper sight adjustment tool that allows you to move the front sight drum for windage. Try dialing it in. If you still have adjustment left, I wouldn't worry about it at all.
I have in fact seen AK's that the front sights looked dead on but you couldn't zero them because something else was screwed up in manufacturing (sometimes a bent US stamped receiver).
Anyway, Arsenal would take care of it if you get one that you can't sight in.
I'd honestly relax. I'm saying this as a guy who's seen a bunch of AK's over the years. You have to realize that they aren't AR's, and there's a lot of tolerance built into the system.
I know that's not coming across very well reading it on the net, but it's usually a non issue.
I have a rifle from way back when that has cant severe enough to where the rifle barely dialed in (sight drum is off to one side). Should have told the manufacturer to fix it years ago. I'm sure they'd fix it tomorrow, but it's still annoying.
If you have to shove the drum all the way to one side or another, they need to get you a new rifle. The rifle should be laser dialed in from the factory, there is no excuse for them to send out a rifle with canted sights. You have to wonder if some AK's are sent out the door unzeroed because the maker looks at how off the sights are and figures there is less of a chance the owner will use the sights than scream bloody murder if he saw the sight drum properly aligned with the horrid cant.
What armakraut said is correct....there can indeed be too much cant.
Here are a couple sight tools. The B-Square one is probably the best, the Tapco ones aren't bad.
http://secure.armorholdings.com/b-square/tools_scope.html
http://www.tapco.com/proddesc.aspx?Id=TOOL0312SINGLE
I'm willing to make slight adjustments, but at some point the actual sight picture is destroyed.
I bought 2 SGL21-61's and neither one had cant on the FSB. As far as front sight tools, I have set from Poly-Tech of China. They're a lot bigger than most other FSB tools, but it gives you a lot more leverage. I got it at a funshow from the JoeKen booth.
Alright, I'm an AK noob - so don't bury me in the yard for this, but what is the difference between this one:
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct838.aspx
and this one:
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct814.aspx
Besides the side folding stock?
forgiven,
I've got the -61 model, except in NATO length plum stock (+1.5" longer buttstock vs WARSAW length) which came exactly as pictured with the 5 or 10 rd mag. Accepts any 47 hi cap mag. Also has a receiver mounted scope bracket on the left side. Nicely finished, made in Russia, chrome liined bbl, etc. A very nice gun for $550!!
I think the 107 is basically the same except it has the sidefolder stock. Which KVar feels is worth +$300 I guess?
There was a heck of a sale running at KVar and a few others the past 4 or 5 weeks. Set to end soon with a few of the vendors.
If all you want is to get your feet wet with an AK...I would go for the -61 like I did.
DO also consider one of the 5.45x39 guns as 5.45 ammo is pretty cheap right now. As cheap as $120 a can from Century Arms IF you can get an account holder or someone with a FFL to order $500 worth. Over $5C and they pick up the shipping.
7.62x39 ammo is a fair amount more costly.
FN in MT
...some AK's are sent out the door...
These SGL21-xx would be coming out a Russian door, to K-var Las Vegas for the conversion. And don't they start out life as a Legion Saiga hunting rifle? I just picture Russian AK standards as a tad cruder than U.S. AK enthusiast expectations.
My SGL21-61 has no cant using my mark I mod 0 eyeball. Haven't had a chance to zero it yet though.
These appear to be $599 now for the non-railed. Is this still a good deal?
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17015&cat=329&page=1
bondmid003
12-14-09, 19:28
Looks like the price has jumped up a bit. It's still a hell of a deal, especially when they're over 1K here in CA
SteyrAUG, do you know why the price increase all of a sudden? Usually people have deals in December, not vice versa
These appear to be $599 now for the non-railed. Is this still a good deal?
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17015&cat=329&page=1
I think that's a decent, realistic price for a high quality AK.
mkmckinley
12-14-09, 23:55
I think if they started them out at $599 the thread would have been " KVAR Russian SGL21-61- $599" and people would still be going apeshit. If you're going to shoot the damn thing the $100 will pale in comparison to the cost of the ammo. If you want one just go for it.
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