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veegunslinger
11-16-09, 16:39
So I had this idea that I wanted to put a free float hand guard on my GOVERNMENT issue M4. The problem is that at operator level maintenance I am not allowed too. Basically we are only allowed to field strip the weapon and that's it. We are not even allowed to take off the issue hand guards, but I did anyways, for this. I was surfing the net for just the right one when I came upon the DD omega rail. What sold me on it was that it attaches to the M4 just like any other 2 piece hand guard. Then I stepped out of the box a little bit more and asked myself, "What if I used the 12 inch version? All I have to do is cut a relief for the front sight." So this is the result. With a little eyeball fitting, a dremel tool, and a file, I went to work. I did a 200 round test fire and it held up pretty good? No change to my previous zero. Shot "near bear" cans at 100 meters, because we hate those things SO much!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/veegunslinger/DSC01364-1.jpg
here's a close up
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a265/veegunslinger/DSC01364_2-1.jpg

Gear:
M4 Carbine (issued)
Daniel Defense Omega Rail 12inch
Surfire X300
PEQ 2 (issued)
BFG Lightweight Redi-mod
PMAG (issued)
Tango Down Pistol Grip
M68 CCO (issued)
BFG Vickers Padded Sling

Bluedog69
11-16-09, 17:07
In the Army you are allowed to remove the handguard for operator level maintenance. Reference TM 9-1005-319-10, page 10.

However, there is an AR governing what types of accessories you can mount on your issue weapon (including non-issue handguards), but I don't have that one lying around.

rgrwilcox
11-16-09, 17:41
How do that PEQ-2A and x300 get along? Do you think it would work with a PEQ-15?

Iraqgunz
11-16-09, 18:06
My guess is that he possibly had a KAC rail on there previously. IIRC from the time that I spent working with Marine 2111's the KAC rails could only be installed and removed by the armorer. I may be wrong about that however.

You are correct about him modding the weapon with non-issue items like the DD rail. I think it's a DA Pamphlet.


In the Army you are allowed to remove the handguard for operator level maintenance. Reference TM 9-1005-319-10, page 10.

However, there is an AR governing what types of accessories you can mount on your issue weapon (including non-issue handguards), but I don't have that one lying around.

Bowser
11-16-09, 18:07
How come you just didn't get the FSP model?

Captains1911
11-16-09, 19:44
It's interesting that your zero didn't change, I would have guessed it would for sure. Also, where the hell do you get near beer from, I haven't seen that crap in years?? (not that I want any)

Belmont31R
11-16-09, 19:55
How come you just didn't get the FSP model?


The FSP comes in the Lite rail, and he would have to change out the barrel nut. This setup retains the entire stock setup minus rails/handguards, and nothing has to be altered for the rail install.

lawusmc0844
11-16-09, 19:56
Awesome job, looks like something I should do with my issued M4.

Iraqgunz, from what my armorer told me, we are not "authorized" to removed the KAC rails. I've done it before because its not difficult to reinstall.

Luke_Y
11-16-09, 20:21
Interesting. I have a question in to DD on the Mfg forum here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=40439) about considering producing a FSP Omega Rail. No answer yet.

I thought they might get some interest from those who would like the "rail estate" especially at 12:00 in front of the FSP, but would prefer not to, or are not allowed to take their duty gun apart.

Or just the same crowd that buys the standard Omegas.

But, I was thinking along the lines of LE not Mil... ;)

Buckshot Barry
11-16-09, 20:36
Are there any restrictions on what slings you pick and how they are installed?

Thanks

Reddevil
11-16-09, 22:20
Great idea! Please keep us informed of how it holds up.

cpekz
11-16-09, 22:57
Are there any restrictions on what slings you pick and how they are installed?

Thanks

In my unit a lot of guys run BFG VCAS slings, although most of them run the sling from the factory attachment points.

Bowser
11-17-09, 02:10
The FSP comes in the Lite rail, and he would have to change out the barrel nut. This setup retains the entire stock setup minus rails/handguards, and nothing has to be altered for the rail install.

Ah, yes I forgot about that part.

veegunslinger
11-17-09, 09:08
How do that PEQ-2A and x300 get along? Do you think it would work with a PEQ-15?

Haven't tried it yet with the 15s but it holds up good with the 2s. The x300 doesn't get in the way of the laser when on aim lo or hi. It does however when I use the dual settings but not too much. I don't have a use for the dual power anyways.

veegunslinger
11-17-09, 09:25
It's interesting that your zero didn't change, I would have guessed it would for sure. Also, where the hell do you get near beer from, I haven't seen that crap in years?? (not that I want any)

I really didn't run too much stuff on my m4 previously, just the peq 2. I did however did a 100 meter zero and did significant adjustments to my cco as well as my irons from my previous 200 meter zero at 25meters.

Near Beers are abundant here when deployed. lol

veegunslinger
11-17-09, 09:31
Are there any restrictions on what slings you pick and how they are installed?

Thanks


In my unit we get issued VTAC slings. Most soldiers attached them to the issued sling swivels but a lot of our guys have there own, mostly BFG rail mount sling loop or the qd swivel mount. Pretty much have a choice on what slings we can use.


Great idea! Please keep us informed of how it holds up.

Ran about over a 1000 rds of m855 through it. Heat transfer to the hand guard is pretty much the same as the standard issue KAC. I've been running it for over two months know and have no other problems. When I shot my buddies rifle (w/ standard KAC) felt like the upper was going to fall apart on me. Just an exaggeration but you know what I mean. lol

U.S.Cavalryman
11-18-09, 06:55
Some units run a "hear no evil, see no evil" policy on mods. providing of course you maintain all the original parts. I am running Larue mounts,A FUG, a BAD lever, ASAP plate, MIAD grip and MOE stock with no issues from the Chain. But if someone else gets involved, I am basically Ronin and will pay the price.
We must maintain issue optics and use issue ammo. Depending on your role, some guys are running bipods of various types, VCAS slings, or single points. We got issued some LMT stocks. The unit basically has same diversity as M4C in the setups.
But since redeployment is finally upon us, most rifles will go back into compliance with the Party line shortly

decodeddiesel
11-19-09, 10:35
I must say that is pretty awesome! Way to "field engineer" that rail, great job. You should seriously send your story and pics of the results to Daniel Defense. I bet they would be interested in seeing what you have done here.

Stay safe over there Brother!

Luke_Y
11-19-09, 10:57
OP- I take it you had to remove (disassemble/cut off) the front hand guard cap @ the FSB?

RogerinTPA
11-19-09, 11:27
Nice job. Glad you have a very understanding CSM and Commander. Most CSMs would lose there minds.

RetreatHell
11-19-09, 16:03
I can completely understand some CO's reluctance to allow any of their soldiers/marines to make any mods to their issued weapons, as some PFCs would strap on some cheap ass hunting scope that their meager salary can afford and that POS would lose its zero quickly and also be easily damaged within the first week probably in A-stan.

But as long as whatever the individual is buying either has an NSN and/or is considered good to go for combat operations by those who have already used them extensively in very bad places around the world (Magpul stocks and grips, Larue Mounts and FUGs, Aimpoint T-1 Micro RDS, Daniel Defense Omega rails as well as high quality, true free floating rails that a trained armorer could install, etc..), then I really don't see why they would have any objections to these upgrades.

To be completely honest, if I could do it all over again, I would've bought an aimpoint RDS (among MANY other things) before I deployed for the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003. If someone told me to take it off, I'd say, "Roger that, sir/Staff Sergeant/Corporal!" But as soon as they walked away I would've put that bitch back on. If I would've been threatened with an NJP or something more severe, oh ****ing well! I'm the one who's going to be using my rifle in combat, so I want my shit to have the best upgrades I can afford that make me more deadly.

There was always a saying in the Marines: "If the Corps didn't issue it to you, then you don't need it." That's bullshit and I hate that mentality! I also hate the whole, "the Marine Corps has always done more with less than any other branch," and, "we don't need all that high-speed shit the Army has."

The Marine Corps has always prided itself on the fact that we always have the shittiest and oldest gear compared to the Army. But there are so many better options out there when it comes to the gear and accessories that Marines (and Soldiers) are issued. So if I were a Marine or Soldier going into harms way today, I would buy anything on my own that the military didn't issue me that I thought I needed. I'd buy a shit-ton of PMAGs, a Larue forward universal grip and QD mount for my issued optic (or if I could afford it, or had enough available on my CC, I'd just buy a aimpoint T-1 and Larue Tall mount combo, as well as the 3X magnifier in larue flip to side mount), Magpul CTR stock/MOE grip/enhanced trigger guard, Surefire X300 or the new mini Scout weapon light, either a Troy or KAC 600m folding rear BUIS, and I'd probably buy both a VCAS 2-point sling and a Magpul MS2 sling w/ASAP plate just to have a variety (or whatever your favorite sling is).

As far as the rail, after reading this thread I'd most likely do exactly what the OP did, as it's a GREAT idea in my opinion! I think it's awesome that you found a way to work around the option you had and made it better in every way. Good job, brother!


Take care everyone and Semper Fi,

-Paul

Belmont31R
11-19-09, 18:42
I can completely understand some CO's reluctance to allow any of their soldiers/marines to make any mods to their issued weapons, as some PFCs would strap on some cheap ass hunting scope that their meager salary can afford and that POS would lose its zero quickly and also be easily damaged within the first week probably in A-stan.

But as long as whatever the individual is buying either has an NSN and/or is considered good to go for combat operations by those who have already used them extensively in very bad places around the world (Magpul stocks and grips, Larue Mounts and FUGs, Aimpoint T-1 Micro RDS, Daniel Defense Omega rails as well as high quality, true free floating rails that a trained armorer could install, etc..), then I really don't see why they would have any objections to these upgrades.

To be completely honest, if I could do it all over again, I would've bought an aimpoint RDS (among MANY other things) before I deployed for the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003. If someone told me to take it off, I'd say, "Roger that, sir/Staff Sergeant/Corporal!" But as soon as they walked away I would've put that bitch back on. If I would've been threatened with an NJP or something more severe, oh ****ing well! I'm the one who's going to be using my rifle in combat, so I want my shit to have the best upgrades I can afford that make me more deadly.

There was always a saying in the Marines: "If the Corps didn't issue it to you, then you don't need it." That's bullshit and I hate that mentality! I also hate the whole, "the Marine Corps has always done more with less than any other branch," and, "we don't need all that high-speed shit the Army has."

The Marine Corps has always prided itself on the fact that we always have the shittiest and oldest gear compared to the Army. But there are so many better options out there when it comes to the gear and accessories that Marines (and Soldiers) are issued. So if I were a Marine or Soldier going into harms way today, I would buy anything on my own that the military didn't issue me that I thought I needed. I'd buy a shit-ton of PMAGs, a Larue forward universal grip and QD mount for my issued optic (or if I could afford it, or had enough available on my CC, I'd just buy a aimpoint T-1 and Larue Tall mount combo, as well as the 3X magnifier in larue flip to side mount), Magpul CTR stock/MOE grip/enhanced trigger guard, Surefire X300 or the new mini Scout weapon light, either a Troy or KAC 600m folding rear BUIS, and I'd probably buy both a VCAS 2-point sling and a Magpul MS2 sling w/ASAP plate just to have a variety (or whatever your favorite sling is).

As far as the rail, after reading this thread I'd most likely do exactly what the OP did, as it's a GREAT idea in my opinion! I think it's awesome that you found a way to work around the option you had and made it better in every way. Good job, brother!


Take care everyone and Semper Fi,

-Paul


We had a guy put a cheap BSA red dot on his SAW, and it would not keep zero for shit. So yes I do completely understand the mil not wanting open season with mods and parts being put on guns.

The only way to do this properly is only NSN items and no permanent mods to the weapons. If someone wants to buy their own optic that is already in the system then they should be allowed to. I bought an EOTech and 2 ACOG's to use while deployed. I would have been pissed if my CO said to take them off because they are not issued to me. I also bought my own KAC M5 rail for my M16A4 as well as a Surefire M900.

lawusmc0844
11-19-09, 19:08
I can completely understand some CO's reluctance to allow any of their soldiers/marines to make any mods to their issued weapons, as some PFCs would strap on some cheap ass hunting scope that their meager salary can afford and that POS would lose its zero quickly and also be easily damaged within the first week probably in A-stan.

But as long as whatever the individual is buying either has an NSN and/or is considered good to go for combat operations by those who have already used them extensively in very bad places around the world (Magpul stocks and grips, Larue Mounts and FUGs, Aimpoint T-1 Micro RDS, Daniel Defense Omega rails as well as high quality, true free floating rails that a trained armorer could install, etc..), then I really don't see why they would have any objections to these upgrades.

To be completely honest, if I could do it all over again, I would've bought an aimpoint RDS (among MANY other things) before I deployed for the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003. If someone told me to take it off, I'd say, "Roger that, sir/Staff Sergeant/Corporal!" But as soon as they walked away I would've put that bitch back on. If I would've been threatened with an NJP or something more severe, oh ****ing well! I'm the one who's going to be using my rifle in combat, so I want my shit to have the best upgrades I can afford that make me more deadly.

There was always a saying in the Marines: "If the Corps didn't issue it to you, then you don't need it." That's bullshit and I hate that mentality! I also hate the whole, "the Marine Corps has always done more with less than any other branch," and, "we don't need all that high-speed shit the Army has."

The Marine Corps has always prided itself on the fact that we always have the shittiest and oldest gear compared to the Army. But there are so many better options out there when it comes to the gear and accessories that Marines (and Soldiers) are issued. So if I were a Marine or Soldier going into harms way today, I would buy anything on my own that the military didn't issue me that I thought I needed. I'd buy a shit-ton of PMAGs, a Larue forward universal grip and QD mount for my issued optic (or if I could afford it, or had enough available on my CC, I'd just buy a aimpoint T-1 and Larue Tall mount combo, as well as the 3X magnifier in larue flip to side mount), Magpul CTR stock/MOE grip/enhanced trigger guard, Surefire X300 or the new mini Scout weapon light, either a Troy or KAC 600m folding rear BUIS, and I'd probably buy both a VCAS 2-point sling and a Magpul MS2 sling w/ASAP plate just to have a variety (or whatever your favorite sling is).

As far as the rail, after reading this thread I'd most likely do exactly what the OP did, as it's a GREAT idea in my opinion! I think it's awesome that you found a way to work around the option you had and made it better in every way. Good job, brother!


Take care everyone and Semper Fi,

-Paul

Oohrah I feel the same way! Not to get off topic, but will share this real fast. For my first deployment back in 06 my Sgt. told me not to take my Spec-Ops Brand Overvest with me because "its not issued". My other Sgt said "don't listen to him because he won't be with you over there" I did the latter because its MY MONEY and not everything the gov issues to us is the greatest (like the MOLLE II FLC in this case.)

At least now the Marine Corps actually issues some good stuff but that won't keep me from buying what I feel will help me do my job over there.

I feel good now as a Sgt. myself, I'm the go-to guy for tactical gear and guns in my section. I bought a shit load of PMags from Bravo Co. for my buddies that recently deployed to Afghanistan. I know they will handle the abuses of combat better than some of the worn out GI mags that a few had. Hopefully one day they will become standard issue...

justin_247
07-19-10, 00:43
OP- I take it you had to remove (disassemble/cut off) the front hand guard cap @ the FSB?

Answers to this anybody?

BrianS
07-19-10, 05:24
But if someone else gets involved, I am basically Ronin and will pay the price.

What is the penalty for that?

MistWolf
07-19-10, 08:59
Please forgive my complete ignorance as I have no clue. What was wrong with the issue KAC rail? What advantages & improvements does the DD Omega rail have?

eagle5
07-19-10, 11:16
Answers to this anybody?

In an email conversation with the OP, he mentioned that he kept the handguard cap in tact (required to convert back to the issued setup) but had to relieve the rail to accomodate the cap. He said the end result was very thin in that area and it wasn't pretty looking, but it worked for his intended purposes.

TehLlama
07-19-10, 16:04
IIRC from the time that I spent working with Marine 2111's the KAC rails could only be installed and removed by the armorer.

You are correct, but try telling that to my idiot brass who had us removing top rails so we could clean the inside of the rails. :help:
... same idiots who tried to get me to remove my QD swivel attachment, XTM panels and BAD lever.

Forgiveness is better than permission in this case - anytime you're sticking with NSN items and quality parts, I wouldn't worry; those regulations are intended to keep Lt's and PFC's from installing NC Star optics, knockoff stocks and modifying FCG components.