View Full Version : Smoke Grenades
Any one have experience with commercialized smoke grenades?
Ive seen many pratical applications of them in tactical environments, but what about in a Katrina type situation?
Are they worth having? just curios
I think they are a useful tool in a Katrina type enviro for the same reasons they are useful in tactical enviros.
Need some quick concealment for movement, need a distraction, need a signal, need a trap/movement indicator? It is all in how you apply them as well as a few other tricks I would rather not bring up on a public forum.
Be cautious in that you can easily start a fire which may be unsavory during a disaster unless that is the desired outcome ;-) .
However, these are tools that can draw attention from authorities and for the sake of not adding another item to the list of stuff restricted from the general public please take care with how you use them.
DOC
Very true, I was unaware that these could potentially start fires
Very true, I was unaware that these could potentially start fires
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRY920oI-TM
this kids video is full of the fail but you can very clearly see the flame shoot out during initiation.
Dont know how much you have used these but for the sake of those who havent, the body of the smoke grenade will be very hot after use and should not be picked up with bare hands.
The heat/flame is enough to light dry grass, carpet, etc.
DOC
Skintop911
12-09-09, 12:35
Useful signaling device in backcountry. Use does not require one to be a rocket scientist, but there are advisories to heed.
Outlander Systems
12-09-09, 21:38
Are these legal/available to civilians?
Yes you can find them on a variety of websites. Ammunitiontogo.com http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/milspec-smoke-grenades has the largest selection Ive seen thus far
Yes they are legal unless restricted locally. I am a dealer for ALS but I only sell local to VA as I am not setup to ship HAZMAT. I am not sure how Ammunition to go gets away with selling CS but in the packet I filled out it basically said that I can only have it shipped direct to an agency. All other smoke I can have shipped direct to me.
Anyway, like I said previously, if you are going to get any of this stuff train with it responsibly. Dont burn your damn house down, harass your ex-girlfriend, or fuck with your neighbor with it. It is a good tool that if brought up to the press would be restricted the next day.
DOC
I used to buy "cold" smoke grenades from this place: http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__23/Smoke_Generating_Devices/smoke_generating_devices.html
The pull ring type had no emitted spark and were allowed at places that otherwise would allow smoke grenades.
I remember the shipping fees sucked...hazmat.
Anyway, like I said previously, if you are going to get any of this stuff train with it responsibly. Dont burn your damn house down, harass your ex-girlfriend, or fuck with your neighbor with it. It is a good tool that if brought up to the press would be restricted the next day.
DOC
Absolutely, I would be purchasing mine for my SHTF kit.
As far as storage goes are there any issues there?
You can get baffled grenades which are safer OR you can make a smoke box by modding an ammo can. ALS makes baffled grenades and ships (or used to) in premade smoke boxes. To make a smoke box take a .50 cal ammo can and drill a whole in the top large enough for the fuse assembly to go through and drill holes in the sides. Cover sides with foil thermal tape. Separate the fuse assembly from the grenade body and insert through whole in top of can, rethread the body onto the fuse assembly INSIDE the can. You will need to carefully bend the spoon out so that the fuse assembly can go through the hole in the lid. This prevents the hot grenade body from touching anything flammable. The can will not get hot enough to ignite MOST materials.
When you want to deploy this, pull the pin and toss the entire box where you want to apply the smoke. This solution is primarily for applying chemical agents inside a house. Not a great field solution but a tool in the toolbox nonetheless. If you want to apply a lot of agent you can put multiple grenades in one box or multiple boxes.
I did a write up on how the basics of safely deploying smoke/chem grenades a few years ago. I will see if I can dig it up or rewrite it.
DOC
Absolutely, I would be purchasing mine for my SHTF kit.
As far as storage goes are there any issues there?
Keep them dry, away from heat, and ideally in a vented box like the smoke box that I described in my last post, in the box not installed in the box. This will reduce transmitted heat should one discharge during storage (rare, honestly never heard of it happening). I keep mine in a smoke box locked in an ammo locker with other bulk items so they are secure.
DOC
OK, so here is a quick intro to grenades use/deployment of smoke grenades:
So here is how the grenade shows up from the factory straight out of the tube:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/arrival.jpg
Ring side
Back side with pin folded over
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/stowedpin.jpg
My preference is not to have any type of grenade discharge when I dont want it to so I tape my pins. This reduces the risk of the ring/pin from being snagged on gear/brush/etc during movement. If you have the grenade stowed in a pouch instead of hanging exposed it wont be a big deal until you pull the grenade out and the spoon pops because somewhere along the way you lost your pin. If you are running a grenade through a section of elastic or with the spoon through molle with a rubber band retainer taping is even more important. Taping prevents a little surprise either way.
So we will take a 6-7" piece of tape (Duct/100mph/gaffers/etc) and tear it in half long ways to get a strip like this. Loop it through the ring and back on itself, adhesive on adhesive.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/midtape.jpg
Then wrap clockwise (looking down on the grenade) around the fuse assembly making sure to leave a tab for ease of deployment like this:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/taped.jpg
Now you are ready to store/load/etc the grenade.
To deploy the grenade grasp it in your hand with the spoon in the web of your thumb and the ring towards your body and unravel the tape:
Right hand:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/RIGHTHAND.jpg
Left hand:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/LEFTHAND.jpg
An optional step is to bend the back side of the pin so it is easier to pull. I do this IF time is on MY side and not actively engaged. If you can not yank a folded pin you should know ahead of time and this step would not be optional, however I dont find it to be too difficult.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/backsidepin.jpg
For pulling, my preference is to brace the grenade body and supporting hand on my chest plate or on my knee and all movement is in the pin pulling hand. This reduces fumbling (notice: this is a technique I picked up in breachers school, take it or leave it). DO NOT USE THIS TECHNIQUE INSIDE A VEHICLE, You should never have a grenade of any kind inside the vehicle with the pin out. Hit a bump with smoke it is just a bad day, with a frag you just killed your team. If you need to brace, do it outside the vehicle and dont bring your hands back in until you have ditched the device.
For throwing, I prefer a low underhand in a mixed area (good and bad guys) when I can not see the destination so I can reduce the chance of laying it in the lap of someone this goes for smoke/CS/DD. For outside/bad guy only or where I can see the destination I will usually go overhand.
For storage I use this box which came with an order from ALS:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/Thirdworldmedic/storagebox.jpg
Some guys prefer to tape the spoon down or tape the rings in other ways. I prefer the way outlined above because the tape is exposed when the grenade is in my hand to throw. For frags I leave the secondary safety on and tape the ring just as I do with smoke. For bangs with two pins, I only tape one pin.
These are my preferences based on my experience, so take it or leave it BUT I have yet to blow myself up OR pitch a grenade of any kind down range that didnt go off.
DOC
Shadow_otw
12-10-09, 08:53
Cool!
About 15 - 20 years ago I was given a Grenade box. Its a mountable box with a flip top and latch to hold it closed. It holds four smoke grenades in a line and each cell is padded with thick felt.
Now I can fill it!
:D
They're legal here in Canada, but no one around bothers to sell them. At best, we can buy the smoke tubes, but we lack the pull-pin style smoke devices. Anyone care to ship?
What color do most have on hand? I would see the most use in purple, but I could be mistaken.
Cheers.
They are ITAR regulated and considering that they do contain a small incendiary (not a true explosive) charge in the fuse assembly I wouldnt even try to send any across the border without the proper paperwork. Your best bet is to contact ALS direct at www.lesslethal.com , they advertise ITAR compliant export abilities so they should be able to help you out.
Iraq Ninja
12-12-09, 08:52
US grenade pin design is lacking IMHO. The Brits have a superior pin, which in some ways resembles a safety pin. You twist it and pull it out. More secure than our style.
I also like their Red Phos smoke grenades. It gives you an instant cloud of smoke and great for clearing out crowds of people, though a few of them may be on fire...
US grenade pin design is lacking IMHO. The Brits have a superior pin, which in some ways resembles a safety pin. You twist it and pull it out. More secure than our style.
I also like their Red Phos smoke grenades. It gives you an instant cloud of smoke and great for clearing out crowds of people, though a few of them may be on fire...
Priceless...
Skintop911
12-12-09, 13:55
I also like their Red Phos smoke grenades. It gives you an instant cloud of smoke and great for clearing out crowds of people, though a few of them may be on fire...
Sig line material.
Iraq Ninja
12-12-09, 23:14
Here is a red phos grenade in action at a range. I don't suggest doing this at public ranges. Red phos is a bit less dangerous than white phos, but still has the shock and awe ability.
Sadly we are not allowed to carry them anymore. Hell, we can't even use thermite to destroy our vehicles.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/Misc/redphos.jpg
RE: Thermite
Is that a company policy or some new guideline (SOFA/etc)? Did you guys come up with some other option?
Iraq Ninja
12-13-09, 00:18
The DOD doesn't authorize the use of thermite anymore for most contractors. Not sure about the DS guys. Part of the reason was that vehicles were being burned when they didn't have to be, and that got expensive.
The Iraqis sometimes make an issue over smokes as well, but we have never had any problems. It is all a matter of attitude and respect.
Hmm, well that sucks, but cant say it wasnt bound to happen. The first company I was with told us to clean out our "accessories" late 2007 early 2008 after increased attention due to the Nisour square incident. Then when I relocated it was company policy, I dont remember anything being listed in the arming authority or SOW but it has been a while, cant say for sure. I would have figured mobile guys would have more leniency though, at least for thermite.
Things have changed,
Iraq Ninja
12-13-09, 01:28
Things have changed, and probably for the best. When you look at the sig acts for this year and last, it is hard to justify some of the stuff we used to carry.
We will probably always have smoke for signaling purposes.
I do miss those small little frag grenades, the ones about the size of the golf ball. Fun for parties and fishing. :)
Can you actually golf with those? Hypothetically speaking, of course...
-B
believeraz
12-13-09, 07:22
Thermite is out in my sphere of influence as well these days. Smoke and HC smoke is still good to go. Even though we can't burn anything with Thermite, HC smoke put on top of a combustible material (upholstered car seat, for instance) will burn very easily.
In the field, on average how many were you carrying?
I usually kept one on my vest and at least one in my go bag. When I put together my larger go bag for a specific area I had bandoleers (from ammo) that had either 4 mags and 2 smoke or 4 mags and some combo of smoke or other items. That brought the count up to 2-4 smoke in my bag with a few other items as well.
As well I kept 1 stashed in the interior of my medic bag for obvious reasons.
Not sure on the total legality on this (still doing some reading) And also not sure about storage life or ability to do so at all.
Just one of those things that stuck in my head and when I read over the thread I figured I would share.
Might make for some fun range time anyway.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/search/make-colored-smoke-bomb/
I do miss those small little frag grenades, the ones about the size of the golf ball. Fun for parties and fishing. :)
I probably blew up close to a few thousand of those because they were "unserviceable"....:confused:
The DOD doesn't authorize the use of thermite anymore for most contractors... Part of the reason was that vehicles were being burned when they didn't have to be, and that got expensive.
Hilarious!
Moose-Knuckle
05-21-10, 08:50
I also like their Red Phos smoke grenades. It gives you an instant cloud of smoke and great for clearing out crowds of people, though a few of them may be on fire...
My morning caffine enriched beverage almost came out my nose. :D
Are these legal/available to civilians?
Yes, we sell them.
C4
NCPatrolAR
05-21-10, 09:43
I've been carrying an ALS pocket smoke on my plate carrier for about 5 years now (in Eagle 40mm pouch). Its there in case things go sideways and need some cover while I have to beat feet elsewhere.
Not sure on the total legality on this (still doing some reading) And also not sure about storage life or ability to do so at all.
Just one of those things that stuck in my head and when I read over the thread I figured I would share.
Might make for some fun range time anyway.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/search/make-colored-smoke-bomb/
I can't imagine the trouble my brother and I would have gotten ourselves into if we had the internet with it's exciting ne'er do well help forums like this available to us when we were kids! :D
theJanitor
05-21-10, 21:15
Yes, we sell them.
C4
link? price?
thanks.
I've been carrying an ALS pocket smoke on my plate carrier for about 5 years now (in Eagle 40mm pouch). Its there in case things go sideways and need some cover while I have to beat feet elsewhere.
What made you decide to carry the pocket vs the standard size? In an urban environment would the output of the standard size be overkill? Just curious.
NCPatrolAR
05-22-10, 06:18
What made you decide to carry the pocket vs the standard size? In an urban environment would the output of the standard size be overkill? Just curious.
size of the canister. A full size canister takes up too much space on my plate carrier while the pocket smoke takes minimal space. Also, for me the pocket smoke output is more than sufficient.
Can anyone provide some links for these? I can't find them anywhere... Thanks
Magic_Salad0892
01-30-11, 04:37
Are smoke grenades the only Less Than Lethal equipment that civis can own?
I kind of wanted to get CS Tear Gas grenades, for SHTF kit, but didn't know if they were actually legal. ALS has them, but I'm not sure if it's legal for me to own them.
Great information in this thread.
BTW:
http://www.alstechnologies.com/index.php?page=ALSG101OC
What is OC? Like Concussion grenades?
Are smoke grenades the only Less Than Lethal equipment that civis can own?
I kind of wanted to get CS Tear Gas grenades, for SHTF kit, but didn't know if they were actually legal. ALS has them, but I'm not sure if it's legal for me to own them.
Great information in this thread.
BTW:
http://www.alstechnologies.com/index.php?page=ALSG101OC
What is OC? Like Concussion grenades?
Definetly dont think those are legal, and making professional grade tear gas isnt exactly the easiest thing to do. If crowd control is what your after then there are other non lethal alternatives that are just as effective
Magic_Salad0892
02-01-11, 02:27
Like what? Flashbangs?
Were you saying OC or CS grenades were illegal?
That grenade has pepper spray- Oleoresin Capsicum.
Are smoke grenades the only Less Than Lethal equipment that civis can own?
I kind of wanted to get CS Tear Gas grenades, for SHTF kit, but didn't know if they were actually legal. ALS has them, but I'm not sure if it's legal for me to own them.
Great information in this thread.
BTW:
http://www.alstechnologies.com/index.php?page=ALSG101OC
What is OC? Like Concussion grenades?
Like what? Flashbangs?
shoot me a pm ;)
Were you saying OC or CS grenades were illegal?
Im not an SME on this by anymeans but I think CR is the illegal compound and CS, OC and another one I cant recall are legal to own/produce but the quantity per canister is limited. It might be best to check with your local department to find the legalities on this issue.
It seems like I read somewhere a couple weeks ago that smoke greandes are now illegal to civilians, something about the ignighter been considered a destructive device by the ATF. Does anyone else recall this?
Moose-Knuckle
02-02-11, 20:37
There are a couple of threads on two different forums right now on this. According to some in those threads ALS has told their distros that the BATFE has ruled the (M201A1 ignitor) fuse they use in their smoke cans as a DD. The M201A1 fuse is made with a Perchlorate mixture and Perchlorate is on the BATFE list of explosive compositions.
Nothing difinitive to date.
There are a couple of threads on two different forums right now on this. According to some in those threads ALS has told their distros that the BATFE has ruled the (M201A1 ignitor) fuse they use in their smoke cans as a DD. The M201A1 fuse is made with a Perchlorate mixture and Perchlorate is on the BATFE list of explosive compositions.
Nothing difinitive to date.
Thanks for the clairification.
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-02-11, 23:02
There are a couple of threads on two different forums right now on this. According to some in those threads ALS has told their distros that the BATFE has ruled the (M201A1 ignitor) fuse they use in their smoke cans as a DD. The M201A1 fuse is made with a Perchlorate mixture and Perchlorate is on the BATFE list of explosive compositions.
Nothing difinitive to date.
Does that mean what I think it means for civies that currently have smoke?
Any other alternatives?
Magic_Salad0892
02-03-11, 04:47
Thanks for the answer IG.
Does that mean that there is no LTL grenade substitute for civilians?
Moose-Knuckle
02-03-11, 18:07
Does that mean what I think it means for civies that currently have smoke?
Any other alternatives?
We're all waiting to hear if in fact they are NOW DD's and if so if the ones in circulation will be grandfathered.
I've read that ALS is working on a different fuse that will be ATF friendly, until their next ruling anyway.
As an ALS Tech dealer I will give the info that I have been given.
In mid October of last year I contacted my POC at ALS to place an order for some flashbang trainers for a training customer. These use a standard fuse body with a small amount of flash powder (under the amount to qualify as a DD) to simulate a flashbang for more economical training with less paperwork. I was informed that the ATF had decided to begin enforcing a statue that was already on the books that classifies the fuse assembly (and contents) as explosive materials. In order to ship the order I had to either provide an address for an LE/MIL agency or unit and POC to receive the shipment or provide a copy of an explosives license. This applied to any item with a fuse (smoke grenades, flash bang trainers, etc).
These items are not newly classified as Destructive Devices, they are simply considered explosive material as they always have been but the ATF is now enforcing regulations regarding sales, possession, etc. To what extent I do not know other than the fact that I can only sell these to agencies and units now (or license holders).
I hope that clears the muddy waters a little. I also hope that ALS can come up with an alternative that maintains the same 'manual of arms' for training purposes. It is much easier (logistically and administratively) to use smoke, bangs, etc for familiarization training when the paperwork required is at a minimum.
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