View Full Version : S&W M&P15
Is this what you're looking for. This is my bud at the shot show showing off a new Colt...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq10sk69zIs&feature=player_embedded
Nice! Too bad I live in a state that doesn't permit SBRs. Wait a minute! Maybe so, since Colt is calling it a SCW! :eek:
GLOCKMASTER
01-18-11, 22:02
Wow, very nice pictures JF. It loooks like the first pics are of MP15A's, but the last one of your instructor looks to be an MP15X.. ? Did he get a different model with a few magpul options or did he dress it up himself... I did some poking around on the S&W website, very interesting info there related to LE, both state and federal. Who and how to contact for doing business. I noted Grant is one of the LE Distributors for his area, very nice. I also noticed the literature on the M&P4's... now that is very kewl. I had no idea Smith has a full auto AR.. What I found more interesting is they do have what appears to be very different internals, including magnetic particle tested bolt and barrel. I copied a link to the LE Catalog, some interesting info there.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/2010_SW_LawEnforcementCatalog_1.pdf
here's a link to the website: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757918_-1_757916_757787_image#
JF, any other detail about the specs on your AR's, did you get any full auto.. :) Are your barrels the 1\7 or the 1\9 twist..
Thanks in advance,
All of our S&W rifles were spec'd from the factory as you see them in the pictures minus the sling. We spec'd them with the BUIS that you see, VTAC sling, Trijicon night front sight post and a barrel mounted side sling swivel with the barrels having a 1/7 twist. The rifles are semi as I do not see the need for full auto in LE work
( but that's another story).
The instructors rifle that you see was delivered like all the others. It is wearing a T&E DD drop in rail and I allowed him to change the rear sight. We have several hundred of the S&W rifles wearing Aimpoints as you see in the picture. Also he installed a Tangodown PR-4 sling mount. The only thing Magpul in that photo is the magazine.
Hope that helps.
GLOCKMASTER
01-18-11, 22:09
=================================
JF,
That's a nice looking fixed rear sight on the "out of the container" guns. Who's the maker?
I've picked up a few S&W marked Troy folding rear sight take-offs but never seen a fixed. Looks like your instructor has one of the S&W folding Troys??
.
It is based off of the Rock River Fixed Stand Alone Rear Sight. (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=320) The RRA model has their logo on it and these do not so I'm not sure who the manufacturer is because they are not marked. That sight was spec'd in the solicitation for bid based on our very lengthy T&E process. We wanted a good fixed rear sight that gave us the flexibility of adding RDS's later without having to purchase another rear sight.
Also someone asked about them being middy's. They are carbine length gas systems.
Kentucky Cop
01-18-11, 22:56
Well,
For some reason I just realized that the NC rifles are 14.5 sticks. Meaning they are a NFA/SBR here. There goes that idea....:confused:
I had it in my head that it was like the M&P TS middy model with a 14.5 length. Sheesh!
KC
(New poster)
We to went with the M&P 15X for our newly established patrol rifle program. Basic setup with EOTechs and single point nut slappers. I'll be qualifying guys over the next 2 days in blizzard conditions (as far as I'm hearing) so it'll be a good test of their durability (and ours) to say the least.
Kentucky Cop
01-26-11, 16:24
(New poster)
We to went with the M&P 15X for our newly established patrol rifle program. Basic setup with EOTechs and single point nut slappers. I'll be qualifying guys over the next 2 days in blizzard conditions (as far as I'm hearing) so it'll be a good test of their durability (and ours) to say the least.
Welcome DWILL! Let us know how they run. Pictures of the sticks in action would be welcome. Let us know the round count/and issues if they arise during your class.
KC
goneballistic
01-26-11, 23:40
I love mine to death. bought it in two parts, a used upper from local classifieds, and a used lower from same.
it rapidly became my favorite AR, even better than my Colt 6920. not sure why. the finish is different, and it's a quad rail model without all the crap I have on the cold. seems lighter and handier so I tend to use it more.
it's been 100% reliable. great guns.
BlackRifleMedic577
01-27-11, 00:02
I was turned on to a Smith and Wesson M&P15 by a buddy from the service. He purchased one several years ago and has never had any significant issues and when he did S&W's customer service took care of it, no ?'s asked. I found one at a gun show for 8 and change. Glad I didnt pass it up, what I saved buying S&W over BCM, COLT, RRA etc. I was able to get Aimpoint COMP ML2 to compliment it. :no:. So far it's was well worth the grab.
Welcome DWILL! Let us know how they run. Pictures of the sticks in action would be welcome. Let us know the round count/and issues if they arise during your class.
KC
The rifles ran perfectly through 2 days of tough winter weather:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/dwil_photos/20110126115525.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/dwil_photos/20110127124157.jpg
I counted 3 malfunctions between both days, 16 different shooters, and those malfunctions could have been user caused (most were first round malfunctions). This is outstanding, in my opinion, and the guys raved about the weapon's reliability, accuracy, and ease of use throughout the 2 tough shooting days. Most of these guys have never carried an M4 before. All of them passed qualifications with higher scores than we anticipated. Total round count was about 3k through 8 rifles.
I say bravo to Smith for making a mighty fine weapon.
(No pics of the sticks in action because I was calling the line.)
Good show! Must have not been fun in the ice and snow.
christcorp
01-29-11, 00:15
I too have owned a lot of S&W weapons. Have always had excellent results with them, and the company. This is my first M&P. Got it on christmas eve, and today was only the 4th time I could go shoot it. (Had a break in frozen temps. was 40 degrees today). In the 4 outings, I've only been able to run about 700 rounds through it so far. Today was about the most serious. 1st time just to check it out and sight in the optic. 2nd and 3rd times on my way home from work. Anyway; today, I put about 240 rounds through it. All but 60 rounds was different russian steel case ammo. MFS, Silver Bear, Tula, and Herters. After running about 100 rounds and cooling down, I ran a mag of PMC bronze through it, and it never even burped. Ran another 80 rounds of russian and finished off with another 30 rounds of PMC. Still working perfect. No stuck cases, misfeeds, or ejection problems.
And using no magnification red-dot nice inexpensive A1optic sight. (I've had great success with a number of their products). I was able to consistently group a 30 round mag into a 4" x 4" square on my target. Middle, left, right, etc... Not bad for no magnification, no vise, sled, rest, etc... Just me holding the rifle and leaning across a table while seated. I'll take a grapefruit size group with basically iron sights and no mechanical stabilization.
Anyway; I'm liking this M&P15 more and more as I shoot it. We've got a gun show in town tomorrow. I need to see about getting another 1000 rounds of the russian. "I like how a guy at work dogs me about shooting steel russian, as junk ammo; but on Monday's we talk about how we went shooting, and he shot 40-60 rounds of .223, while I'm shooting 200-250 rounds."
GLOCKMASTER
01-29-11, 08:54
The rifles ran perfectly through 2 days of tough winter weather:
I counted 3 malfunctions between both days, 16 different shooters, and those malfunctions could have been user caused (most were first round malfunctions). This is outstanding, in my opinion, and the guys raved about the weapon's reliability, accuracy, and ease of use throughout the 2 tough shooting days. Most of these guys have never carried an M4 before. All of them passed qualifications with higher scores than we anticipated. Total round count was about 3k through 8 rifles.
I say bravo to Smith for making a mighty fine weapon.
(No pics of the sticks in action because I was calling the line.)
Dwil that's good to hear that you guys are having a good experience with the S&W rifles.
I must say I enjoy threads like this.
At this point I would like to throw my 2 cents in. I own a handful of AR's, all listed as LE Only when I bought them. Colt and S&W. I am NOT a operator or LE. Guns are for enjoyment and SD/HD. I do shoot. The S&W's I own are all over a year old.
Generally I run between 100 and 300 rounds when I shoot. Guns have not been run in the rain.
I bought a S&W and liked it, then a Colt then went back to the S&W. Why, for my usage I can tell no difference except the cash I keep in my pocket. Further when I grab a gun to shoot it usually isn't the Colt. I have though about it I cant tell you why, maybe the cost.
So, based on MY experience I find the S&W to be a fine weapon. Also, I have several friends with similar habits almost all are shooting S&W with ownership of LMT, DD, Colt, Bushmasters, etc. In our group no issues at all with the S&W's and basically we all recommended the S&W as our AR of choice.
What is interesting is on handguns we are all over the place - Glock, Kimber 1911, Colt, Ruger, M&P, Revolvers, etc. and we have all had good and bad experiences with different handguns and we all recommend different manufactures.
Anyway, YMMV but I felt compelled to report our experiences.
firecop019
01-29-11, 18:31
LOL, Dwill that looks like fun! Makes picking up brass hard though.
I have no issues with my MP15 rifle, but in its current configuration, it has a BCM F/A carrier and H2 buffer. I didn't have any problems with the original S/A carrier, but upon closer inspection, I don't believe it was correctly staked. An attempt was made to do it, but the metal wasn't displaced enough to fully contact the screws.
It seems so simple, but if S&W started producing their guns with 1:7 twist/4150 steel (or better) barrels, F/A BCGs, and H buffers, most people would have absolutely no complaints against them.
christcorp
01-30-11, 17:03
Totally agree with you uwe1. But obviously, the only thing that is of significance, is the barrel. You can replace replace the buffer in 60 seconds for $25. You could replace the entire BCG if you really wanted to for under $200. I think for most people, it's not a big deal. I use my restored '66 mustang a lot as an example. I know some people that don't consider it "RESTORED", because it's not all ORIGINAL. Well guess what? There are some things; for me; that are BETTER when it's not original. I live in very cold Wyoming. I like having a modified electronic ignition, on a chevy distributor, on a Ford shaft. That engine starts every single time. I don't have to worry about the weather and points/condensers. Same with my M&P15. I'm not shooting full auto, or similar. My BCG is perfectly fine. And it's even staked fine. The Buffer; I'm fine with that. I may experiment with an H2 or an ST-T2 buffer. But that's just my "TWEAKING NATURE". I don't really need to do it. Having certain "Standard"; whether they are "Mil-Spec" or whatever, isn't always necessary, OR always better.
As for the barrel; I can see that as an issue. I think a 1:7 barrel should be an option. (Not standard). Some shooting does better with the 1:9 twist. But if I was in a state that allowed deer hunting with a .223, I'd probably want to try some 75-80 grain 100-200 yard hunting with it. I recognize that the 1:9 isn't very good about the 70 grain mark. Especially with a 16" barrel. Also; if I was into match competition shooting, I'd want that faster twist so I could find the perfect load. It might be 72-75 grain. I don't get that option with the 1:9. But I'm not into competition shooting, or hunting with 71+ grain bullets. So for me, the 1:9 twist is fine. As is the 4140 steel.
But you do make a very good argument. S&W should definitely consider at least making one rifle for retail sale, that has at least the barrel and BCG set up for the more "Serious", for lack of a better term, shooter.
But obviously, the only thing that is of significance, is the barrel. You can replace replace the buffer in 60 seconds for $25. You could replace the entire BCG if you really wanted to for under $200...
The problem is that replacing the S/A BCG and C-buffer with a F/A BCG and H/H2 from BCM will cost you about $150-$175+ with shipping (For less money, I picked up a BCM carrier w/o the bolt on the EE). If you're a shooter that prefers that extra reliability, the price difference between a Tier 1 gun and a S&W becomes even less. Once you account for the barrel then the choice becomes even more clear. My MP15 was my first AR and I spent a good amount of time and money reconfiguring it as I learned. I didn't want to screw around with the next gun I got. I chose a DDM4.
My BCG is perfectly fine. And it's even staked fine. The Buffer; I'm fine with that. I may experiment with an H2 or an ST-T2 buffer. But that's just my "TWEAKING NATURE". I don't really need to do it. Having certain "Standard"; whether they are "Mil-Spec" or whatever, isn't always necessary, OR always better.
In my opinion, as a less experienced member of this forum, is that the gun ran better with a M16 carrier and H/H2 buffer. My DDM4 came with a T2 (sounds like powder) and the recoil impulse was very sharp. It felt the same in my MP15. I had already purchased an H buffer for the MP15, so I got a H3 from GRtactical and built myself two H2s.
As for the barrel; I can see that as an issue. I think a 1:7 barrel should be an option. (Not standard). Some shooting does better with the 1:9 twist. But if I was in a state that allowed deer hunting with a .223, I'd probably want to try some 75-80 grain 100-200 yard hunting with it. I recognize that the 1:9 isn't very good about the 70 grain mark. Especially with a 16" barrel. Also; if I was into match competition shooting, I'd want that faster twist so I could find the perfect load. It might be 72-75 grain. I don't get that option with the 1:9. But I'm not into competition shooting, or hunting with 71+ grain bullets. So for me, the 1:9 twist is fine. As is the 4140 steel.
Here in southern Arizona, the deer aren't too big, usually under 100 lbs. People have reported very good results with 64 grain Winchester Power Points and 62 grain Federal Fusions. My 4140 1:9 twist barreled MP15 can shoot sub 2" groups with it. It can probably do better, but the scope I'm using isn't particularly high quality and has issues with parallax.
... I didn't want to screw around with the next gun I got. I chose a DDM4...
Excellent choice!
... I had already purchased an H buffer for the MP15, so I got a H3 from GRtactical and built myself two H2s...
I keep telling myself some day I'm going to do that just for grins. :D
I recently bought m&p MOE for $750 and threw an aimpoint T1 in larue mount on top. Not a bad rig. Probably more trustworthy than my bushhamster I suppose. I will throw vertical grip and vcas sling and be good to go for whatever.
ARiflesFury556
01-30-11, 22:53
I bought a M&P 15 MOE bout 2 years ago. its barely a MOE anymore now but I've beat on that rifle pretty hard w/o one malfunction. Pretty accurate too. Now I bought this for about 900$. I never expected it to be on the level of say Noveske or maybe LMT. But its still a quality weapon that can take a beating. One thing I can kinda gripe on is that there is no room under the rear take down pin to put a accuwedge. which the play between both receivers doesn't hinder anything, I just would like to get rid of the play. But. that is a very small complaint that really is just the perfectionist in me talking
Probably more trustworthy than my bushhamster I suppose.
Way, way more trustworthy than a Bushmaster. I've seen "experiments" run in which, out of sample sizes of ~10, 40% of Bushmasters had headspacing issues out of the box...
One thing I can kinda gripe on is that there is no room under the rear take down pin to put a accuwedge. which the play between both receivers doesn't hinder anything, I just would like to get rid of the play. But. that is a very small complaint that really is just the perfectionist in me talking
The OCD in me likes my rifles to fit well together. I'll confess that I took an accuwedge and performed surgery on it to make it fit into the MP15 lower receiver. It's basically an L-shape now with about 2mm thickness at the vertical and 1mm at the bottom and snugs the lower and upper.
I haven't had any malfunctions with this, but I know that the more experienced members caution against having one in the gun. Where I can see it causing a problem is that the top of the wedge can rub against the BCG as it's traveling back into the receiver extension and cause stoppages. I noticed an area of wear at the tip of the modified accuwedge due to the BCG passing through and cut it off to preempt any issues. 2500 rounds and no problems. The MP15 is my training gun. I didn't need to do this to my DDM4 as the fit of the upper and lower is much better.
Edit: I am not recommending this, I'm just sharing what I've tried and it worked for me (until it doesn't).
I love my M&P15. Bought the OR model and added from there. I haven't had any issues with it except for 2 jams. This was due to me using steel ammo, my fault.
I love my M&P15. Bought the OR model and added from there. I haven't had any issues with it except for 2 jams. This was due to me using steel ammo, my fault.
Mine started out as a ORC. It has never malfunctioned, even with steel cased ammo. I shot 800 rounds of Silver Bear 62 grain HPs for a class and no issues. I kept the BCG very wet with some synthetic motor oil.
christcorp
02-01-11, 00:47
I treat mine pretty basic. Even the new one. After I'm done shooting, I run a bore snake down the barrel twice. Then, I hit the ramp/chamber with a 12 gauge barrel brush. I then spray the crap out of it with remoil or similar; including the open bolt. Wipe it down. Then, I put it away until next time. I think I spend a total of 3 minutes "Cleaning" it. Except for my hunting rifles, which I only pull out a couple times a year, this is how I treat most of my guns. Never have any problems. Usually, I'll do a major cleaning on all my guns around the end of spring, before I plan on shooting them a lot. Then, another major cleaning around November when most of them will be put away for 6+ months. But in between; 3 minute of attention after shooting them, and put them away until the next time.
Gunfighter 9
02-02-11, 08:29
I love my M&P 15X. It is well built and was a great deal at $997 with shipping from CDNN.
I've owned my M&P15T (in-house production) for ~18 months now and it's been a great rifle. I've put close to 3,500 rounds of various types of .223 and 5.56 ammunition through it to date without a single malfunction. I swapped the semi auto bolt carrier and carbine buffer out for a F/A carrier and a Spike's ST-T2 buffer at ~1,000 rounds - both configs run without issue but it now cycles more smoothly and recoil impulse feels a bit softer. The trigger on my M&P is fantastic - no perceivable creep at all and a crisp break. The 15T is not exactly a lightweight carbine but mine, as equipped now, feels fairly well balanced and it's weight has not been a problem in training.
If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now I would likely start off with a Daniel Defense lightweight middy and build it up from there. The overall cost would end up being a bit higher but for that I'd get a properly gassed AR with a better barrel, less weight out front allowing for better overall balance, a bit less weight overall, and a softer shooting gun.
That said I wouldn't even consider trading my M&P15T for any other AR. This one has proven itself dependable/reliable, accurate, and a joy to shoot. It's a known quantity.
swampfox1975
02-02-11, 14:38
I have not had any failures with mine but after all is said and done I would buy the bcm carbine.
Anyone who sees a volume of guns from different commercial sources seeing an increase in M&P15 failures?
I get about 20-24 shooters at our drills nights, and about 10-30 at our matches, each once a month. Over the last several months I seem to be seeing a freely-admited, non-scientifically counted, increase in the number of M&P15s with issues. One of our shooters sent his back at least once, I think actually twice, and eventually gave up and moved on to the Colt. Again, non-scientific, but as you start to see trends they start to stand out to you. As the M&P15 is something I previously recommended to some people (mostly those that wanted off-the-shelf) I am rethinking that due to the increase in failures I'm seeing. It is getting to the point that when I walk up to a shooter having issues I just flat out expect him to say "It's a Smith" of late.
Anyone who sees a volume of guns from different commercial sources seeing an increase in M&P15 failures?
I would have to disagree with you on this. Our agency just bought 100 M&P-15 rifles and we are in the seventh and final week of patrol rifle operator class and we've had nary an issue. Our classes for patrol rifle are 5 days long with about 1200 rounds fired, and we've had no problems.
All one lot? LE PO?
That's kind of my point. The problem guns I'm seeing are from gunshop private purchases by private citizens over a range of the last 6 months or so. That's what I'm asking about. What S&W LE may or may not do for guns on large PD/LE POs is a separate animal, and at least one pretty well-known instructor advises sticking to those versions over the commercial guns.
and there really isn't anything to "agree" or "disagree" with. It's not really an opinion but my undocumented experience over the last few months. That's why I was trying to see if others that see guns in a similar market have seen similar trends.
It would also be nice for anyone mentioning issues to state the nature of the failures as well. Just seeing a shooter with a gun that's malfunctioning isn't statistically significant if said shooter is trying to run a bone dry gun, has bubba'd the internals, etc.
It would also be nice for anyone mentioning issues to state the nature of the failures as well. Just seeing a shooter with a gun that's malfunctioning isn't statistically significant if said shooter is trying to run a bone dry gun, has bubba'd the internals, etc.
Agree, and I freely admit that I haven't been keeping track, other than the one guy who I know has sent the gun back at least once, if not twice. and is why I'm looking to see if others have seen a similar trend that they may have better documentation on.
I know it's a pretty small segment that are going to see a large sampling of hobby-level shooters though.
All one lot? LE PO?
That's kind of my point. The problem guns I'm seeing are from gunshop private purchases by private citizens over a range of the last 6 months or so. That's what I'm asking about. What S&W LE may or may not do for guns on large PD/LE POs is a separate animal, and at least one pretty well-known instructor advises sticking to those versions over the commercial guns.
Yes, they're all from one lot.
I wasn't aware that Smith made special rifles for law enforcement orders...we just ordered conventional S&W M&P-15Xs. I just assumed the workers just get a work order and reach into a bin for the parts and put together the rifles as specified.
I'm actually going out to Smith for a class and a factory tour next week, that's something I'll bring up with the instructor.
I wasn't aware that Smith made special rifles for law enforcement orders...
I'm not sure that they do or don't, but in the event that they do I wanted to clarify. I have heard it said that S&W LE guns are somehow "different" (better?).
I would be interested to know how that process works. If they get an order for 100 rifles do they just go grab 100 rifles off the line or are they sent through with a different work order and attention to details?
Anyone who sees a volume of guns from different commercial sources seeing an increase in M&P15 failures?
I get about 20-24 shooters at our drills nights, and about 10-30 at our matches, each once a month. Over the last several months I seem to be seeing a freely-admited, non-scientifically counted, increase in the number of M&P15s with issues. One of our shooters sent his back at least once, I think actually twice, and eventually gave up and moved on to the Colt. Again, non-scientific, but as you start to see trends they start to stand out to you. As the M&P15 is something I previously recommended to some people (mostly those that wanted off-the-shelf) I am rethinking that due to the increase in failures I'm seeing. It is getting to the point that when I walk up to a shooter having issues I just flat out expect him to say "It's a Smith" of late.
I have not seen or heard (out of S&W) any problems. I am wondering if the M&P15's you are seeing have problems are older models (1.5-2yrs old).
C4
christcorp
03-03-11, 16:03
My observation is even less scientific that Rob's. I know of personally 8 individuals with an M&P15. (Myself being one of the 8). 5 are people I know real well. While they don't shoot as many rounds as I do, they still put in over 1000 a year. The other 2 people are individuals I see at the range on a regular basis. I've only known 2 of them to have any issues. Both of them sort of "Bubba'd" their M&P15's. Not in a bad way; just not original to the rifle. Both had feed/ejection issues. The one put in a complete new BCG and new heavy buffer and flat wire spring. Maybe there was a spacing issue or too much resistance for the gas pressure. He was having around 1 or 2 rounds fail to feed/eject properly every couple magazines. He's since gone back to the original bcg and buffer/spring and has said he hasn't had any more issues. The other guy wanted to change out his gas block and some other gas related stuff. He's had all sorts of issues. I'm sure it's because of his playing with it. I haven't seen him much this winter. I'll definitely check with him the next time i see him at the range.
Other than that, the other 5 guys have had no issues at all. And one other thing we all seem to have in common, is that our M&P15's all seem to be able to shoot absolutely any ammo that you feed it.
I'd recommend going to the smith-wesson.com forum website and asking there. There's no competition when a forum is made up of all the same manufacturer. If there's problems, they'll definitely mention it. Matter of fact, I just went and looked at the S&W forum, and I had to go back a LOT of pages before I found anyone with a problem. Just about all the posts are the typical: "Look what I bought"; "Sights/Optics"; "Tweaks"; "Ammo"; "Accessories"; "Gas vs piston"; etc... In the first few pages, the only "Problem" was a guy who wanted to know if it was normal for the FIRST round in a magazine to not feed right when he charged the rifle. He admitted he "SLOWLY" brought the charging handle forward because it was a "NEW GUN" and he didn't want to hurt it.
Whenever I am looking at possibly getting a new gun, I normally go to the manufacturer specific type of forums and look for posts of people having problems. I don't care who thinks "IT'S GREAT". I want to see who's having problems. And manufacturer specific forums are much more honest. These are people who want answers. When I can go page after page after page etc.... and not see anyone asking: "How", "Why", etc... to fix a problem they have; that tells me that weapon is doing real well. From the s&w forum; I conclude that the M&P15 does real well.
All one lot? LE PO?
That's kind of my point. The problem guns I'm seeing are from gunshop private purchases by private citizens over a range of the last 6 months or so. That's what I'm asking about. What S&W LE may or may not do for guns on large PD/LE POs is a separate animal, and at least one pretty well-known instructor advises sticking to those versions over the commercial guns.
and there really isn't anything to "agree" or "disagree" with. It's not really an opinion but my undocumented experience over the last few months. That's why I was trying to see if others that see guns in a similar market have seen similar trends.
S&W LE AR15's can in fact be different than commercial AR15's. The agency/PD/SO can spec the gun in many different ways OR buy a NFA weapon that is MUCH closer to TDP specs than to commercial specs.
So it is entirely possible that an LE spec'd gun can and will be a better quality than a commercial gun.
C4
Yes, they're all from one lot.
I wasn't aware that Smith made special rifles for law enforcement orders...we just ordered conventional S&W M&P-15Xs. I just assumed the workers just get a work order and reach into a bin for the parts and put together the rifles as specified.
I'm actually going out to Smith for a class and a factory tour next week, that's something I'll bring up with the instructor.
There are LE SKU's and Commercial SKU's. So for the 15X (for instance), the commercial SKU is 811008 and the LE SKU is 311008.
IMHO, it isn't until you get into the 14.5" LE guns before you see any major differences between commercial and LE guns.
C4
Oh, one last thing on S&W AR's. S&W really does not mark their uppers in any way that allow them to be ID'd as a TRUE S&W product.
S&W also sell's their lowers stripped and complete.
On several occasions, I have seen S&W lowers with NONE S&W uppers on them (all being bought at gun shows and such). The consumer believed that they got a true S&W AR, when in fact they got a "bubba" gun. :fie:
When buying product that is not really identified (roll marks, laser engraving, etc), it is ALWAYS a good idea to purchase from a KNOWN dealer (G&R listed on the S&W website: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757918_-1_757916_757787_image#oh)
C4
IMHO, it isn't until you get into the 14.5" LE guns before you see any major differences between commercial and LE guns.
In this regard, our patrol rifles are not specialized. They are conventional 16" barreled M&P-15X's.
In this regard, our patrol rifles are not specialized. They are conventional 16" barreled M&P-15X's.
Understand, but they have an LE SKU (not a commercial one).
C4
christcorp
03-03-11, 17:18
Understand, but they have an LE SKU (not a commercial one).
C4
Did i miss something? I didn't see anywhere where Killjoy said WHICH SKU his rifles had. Only that they were from the same lot.
Did i miss something? I didn't see anywhere where Killjoy said WHICH SKU his rifles had. Only that they were from the same lot.
He did not say, but since this is a dept. purchase, I just about guarantee that they were an LE SKU'd gun.
C4
jklaughrey
03-03-11, 17:32
To answer Rob one of the other PD's in my area had S&W mp15's and I don't know the SKU but they had issues with some being over-gassed and quite a few FTE's. But I don't know all the specifics but I am sure they were commercial grade since they were purchased piecemeal instead of a PO with many units. Either way they got sent down the road and sold to the tribal cops. The PD is now carrying BCM 11.5 configuration rifles.
As it stands I personally and many others I know wouldn't touch a S&W commercial rifle with a 10 foot pole. But I will keep my eyes out for any more issues with some locals that have them and see if they are incurring problems.
christcorp
03-03-11, 17:33
He did not say, but since this is a dept. purchase, I just about guarantee that they were an LE SKU'd gun.
C4
Wouldn't that depend on if it had any specs that were outside of the commercial off the shelf version? If they had no unique specs, it's quite possible that they bought weapons that were using the same sku as conventional commercial retail sales.
Did i miss something? I didn't see anywhere where Killjoy said WHICH SKU his rifles had. Only that they were from the same lot.
Wouldn't that depend on if it had any specs that were outside of the commercial off the shelf version? If they had no unique specs, it's quite possible that they bought weapons that were using the same sku as conventional commercial retail sales.
No. They don't have to have anything special done in order to get an LE SKU.
C4
GLOCKMASTER
03-03-11, 19:59
Our rifles have a special LE SKU and we haven't experienced any of the issues that are mentioned here.
I have not seen or heard (out of S&W) any problems. I am wondering if the M&P15's you are seeing have problems are older models (1.5-2yrs old).
C4
I've written pretty extensively on this site about my problems with my rifle when I first bought it, and thanks to people on this site I have worked out the kinks and not seen problems to date. But I am aware of the fact that my rifle is an older one, and I have pretty much decided (non scientifically) that this may have had something to do with the problems. For example my chamber wasn't a true 5.56.
I do wonder if SW flooded the market around the time I bought my rifle with older models to get rid of old inventory and to take advantage of Obamamania.
Rob you may ask when these people bought their rifles. It is possible they bought them around the same time I did, back in 2008. It may have something to do with it.
Rob you may ask when these people bought their rifles. It is possible they bought them around the same time I did, back in 2008. It may have something to do with it.
Thank you. If we continue to see issues I will ask that in the future.
I've written pretty extensively on this site about my problems with my rifle when I first bought it, and thanks to people on this site I have worked out the kinks and not seen problems to date. But I am aware of the fact that my rifle is an older one, and I have pretty much decided (non scientifically) that this may have had something to do with the problems. For example my chamber wasn't a true 5.56.
I do wonder if SW flooded the market around the time I bought my rifle with older models to get rid of old inventory and to take advantage of Obamamania.
Rob you may ask when these people bought their rifles. It is possible they bought them around the same time I did, back in 2008. It may have something to do with it.
Guns made in this time frame (08-09) are a lot more likely to have a problem than AR's made more recently IMHO.
C4
I'm curious Rob what kind of failures you are seeing?
Understand, but they have an LE SKU (not a commercial one).
According to the S&W LE Catalog (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/2010_SW_LawEnforcementCatalog_1.pdf), the SKU for a "LE" 16" M&P15X is 811008, which is the same as the "commercial" SKU.
The 311014 SKU is the 14.5" versions, which *are* different from the commercial SKU, since we can't get the SBR versions commercially...
Doesn't answer the question of whether the LE versions see more quality-control or Mil-Spec-iness, of course, but it's some additional data...
~Dan
According to the S&W LE Catalog (http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/2010_SW_LawEnforcementCatalog_1.pdf), the SKU for a "LE" 16" M&P15X is 811008, which is the same as the "commercial" SKU.
Just a typo/lazy. They carried the SKU's over from the commercial side.
Doesn't answer the question of whether the LE versions see more quality-control or Mil-Spec-iness, of course, but it's some additional data...
~Dan
I can't/won't go into the differences, but my advice to people is to ALWAYS buy LE guns (no matter the manufacturer). If nothing else, they get more QC checks and in some instances the LE guns are the ONLY guns that get ANY QC.
C4
Grant,
Out of curiosity, what are the SKUs, if any difference, for the MOE models?
My MOE is running perfectly so far. Although, it has an admittedly low round count.
I bought 2 S&W M&P OR's last month. One for my gal and one for me. Got them for $699 and I am getting another $100 back from S&W from the military rebate.:laugh: Nice deal!
They don't come with much but, the price is great for a well built AR. I shot a few hundred rounds and it performed great!
I am getting a Red Dot for my gal and I want a 1-4x to 1-6x scope on mine.
Okay, just took a tour, and an armorer's class over at S&W today, so I have some inside dope:
Surprisingly, there are some differences between the LE M&P-15 and commercial M&P-15! Internal policy at S&W dictates that all components for LE M&P-15s must be made in house, while for commercial M&P-15s they can and do sometimes subcontract parts. Here's the rub, they only have to do this when the demand for AR's exceed their in-house manufacturing capabilities, like during the Obama scare of '08-'09. Currently, because the demand for AR's has dropped, all M&P-15's, commercial and LE, are made from the exact same, in-house manufactured components. This may explain some of the reported discrepancies between LE carbines and commercial carbines.
I found their manufacturing facilities to be impressive, 75 million had been spent in the last few years to buy new CNC machinery and upgrade the factory. A new 1600 ton forge recently acquired could forge an AR lower with one operation rather than five. Quality was also impressive, as lots of parts were being inspected by computer controlled machinery. I also noticed from their employees an emphasis on being responsive to shooting public. Many interesting variations of the M&P-15 are being planned; I noticed a bin containing 4150 MIL-B-11595E barrels. When I asked about this, the response was that they could now acquire 4150 steel as cheaply as 4140 steel, and they may be making future M&P15 barrels out of 4150. Also mentioned was a .308 version of the M&P-15, probably out by the end of the year. Fascinating stuff!
Where can I get a good price on a M&P15 TS?
Anyone have experience with the shorter barrelled TS model and using a suppressor?
Was a verdict ever made as to these being 1:7 or 1:9?
Okay, just took a tour, and an armorer's class over at S&W today, so I have some inside dope:
Surprisingly, there are some differences between the LE M&P-15 and commercial M&P-15! Internal policy at S&W dictates that all components for LE M&P-15s must be made in house, while for commercial M&P-15s they can and do sometimes subcontract parts. Here's the rub, they only have to do this when the demand for AR's exceed their in-house manufacturing capabilities, like during the Obama scare of '08-'09. Currently, because the demand for AR's has dropped, all M&P-15's, commercial and LE, are made from the exact same, in-house manufactured components. This may explain some of the reported discrepancies between LE carbines and commercial carbines.
I found their manufacturing facilities to be impressive, 75 million had been spent in the last few years to buy new CNC machinery and upgrade the factory. A new 1600 ton forge recently acquired could forge an AR lower with one operation rather than five. Quality was also impressive, as lots of parts were being inspected by computer controlled machinery. I also noticed from their employees an emphasis on being responsive to shooting public. Many interesting variations of the M&P-15 are being planned; I noticed a bin containing 4150 MIL-B-11595E barrels. When I asked about this, the response was that they could now acquire 4150 steel as cheaply as 4140 steel, and they may be making future M&P15 barrels out of 4150. Also mentioned was a .308 version of the M&P-15, probably out by the end of the year. Fascinating stuff!
Well that explains a lot, thank you!
So after sending my buddy (who knows very little about firearms but wants an AR) dozens of links to threads here, a copy of the "Chart" and links to examples of quality components from places like Bravo Co, etc he just texted me "I bought an AR yesterday. S&W. Didn't spend a lot, real basic."
This after telling him not to buy anything before he spoke to me:rolleyes:
So the question is, has anything changed in current production of these rifles since the "Chart"? It seems from the post above that it may have.
So after sending my buddy (who knows very little about firearms but wants an AR) dozens of links to threads here, a copy of the "Chart" and links to examples of quality components from places like Bravo Co, etc he just texted me "I bought an AR yesterday. S&W. Didn't spend a lot, real basic."
This after telling him not to buy anything before he spoke to me:rolleyes:
So the question is, has anything changed in current production of these rifles since the "Chart"? It seems from the post above that it may have.
Well, what do ya know.... Sounds like S&W AR's ain't so bad after all.... :) So much for all the BS about "the chart"
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"So much for all the BS about "the chart"................. Did he really say that ??????
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Oh my gosh......................such Blasphemy !!
__________________
Well, what do ya know.... Sounds like S&W AR's ain't so bad after all.... :) So much for all the BS about "the chart"
I'd bet you a shiny new S&W that he didn't read one thing I sent him:suicide2: I'm just trying to get an idea of what he has. He could have done much worse. My main concern is how much he paid being that LE6920's can be had for $1000.
I'd bet you a shiny new S&W that he didn't read one thing I sent him:suicide2: I'm just trying to get an idea of what he has. He could have done much worse. My main concern is how much he paid being that LE6920's can be had for $1000.
My guess is if he got a S&W, he got the right gun!!
Okay, just took a tour, and an armorer's class over at S&W today, so I have some inside dope:
Surprisingly, there are some differences between the LE M&P-15 and commercial M&P-15! Internal policy at S&W dictates that all components for LE M&P-15s must be made in house, while for commercial M&P-15s they can and do sometimes subcontract parts. Here's the rub, they only have to do this when the demand for AR's exceed their in-house manufacturing capabilities, like during the Obama scare of '08-'09. Currently, because the demand for AR's has dropped, all M&P-15's, commercial and LE, are made from the exact same, in-house manufactured components. This may explain some of the reported discrepancies between LE carbines and commercial carbines.
I found their manufacturing facilities to be impressive, 75 million had been spent in the last few years to buy new CNC machinery and upgrade the factory. A new 1600 ton forge recently acquired could forge an AR lower with one operation rather than five. Quality was also impressive, as lots of parts were being inspected by computer controlled machinery. I also noticed from their employees an emphasis on being responsive to shooting public. Many interesting variations of the M&P-15 are being planned; I noticed a bin containing 4150 MIL-B-11595E barrels. When I asked about this, the response was that they could now acquire 4150 steel as cheaply as 4140 steel, and they may be making future M&P15 barrels out of 4150. Also mentioned was a .308 version of the M&P-15, probably out by the end of the year. Fascinating stuff!
This does explain a lot. My question is, could it be possible that some rifles that might be "commercial" have mil-spec parts installed on them?? Reason I ask is because I put the LMT SOPMOD stock on my M&P15 without knowing if it had a mil-spec reciever extension. It fit perfectly. Is there a way to look up specific serial #'s to find out or do I have to go by date of purchase?? Thanks.
My guess is if he got a S&W, he got the right gun!!
====================================
Why do you say that?
What if he paid $1200 for the ORC or a MOE...would your statement still be true?
.
====================================
Why do you say that?
What if he paid $1200 for the ORC or a MOE...would your statement still be true?
.
But he didn't, did he.... so why ask a stupid question... if not to just ask a stupid question? :jester:
he just texted me "I bought an AR yesterday. S&W. Didn't spend a lot, real basic."
sounds like under a 1000.00, probably 700-800... if he is happy with his purchase, what is your problem...
christcorp
06-04-11, 13:55
I'm a big M&P15 fan, I own one, but I'm also realistic and knowledgeable about value. I tell the S&W crowd the same thing.
1. If you spent UNDER $600 for the M&P15-SPORT, and that's what you want or could afford, then you did well.
2. If you spent UNDER $800 for the M&P15-"Other models such as straight or OR", and that's what you want or could afford, then you also did well.
3. If you spent OVER $800 for any of the M&P15's, including the high end models, then you didn't do well, because for the same amount of money, you could have bought or built a higher quality Colt, BCM, etc...
I love my M&P15. I bought the OR, because I had plenty of various sights sitting around the house from 30+ years of Frankensteining. But there is no way that I would have paid $800+ for it. I happen to get one on sale, with also rebates, and got it for a final price of $649. But if I was going to pay $850-$1050, I would have gotten a Colt, BCM, or some other options.
That's what I tell S&W M&P15 fans.
Not really the same , but I bought a S&W MP15/22 a year ago. It was an early one NIB that never had a FH installed. Anyhow right out of the box it was having extraction issues and upon a close look it never had an extractor installed. S&W sent me the parts free , then I had the barrel cut & threaded for a 16A1 birdcage...looks great other than the goofy tactical railed forearm. Anyhow it's one of th emore fun 22 shooters I have especailly wiht the black dog magic 50 round drum , but it's not th emost consistently accurate 22's though.
ECRRRainman
06-04-11, 22:14
So, can anyone tell me if S&W still plans to release their 1/8 midlength "VTAC" rifle revealed at last year's SHOT show?
I'd bet you a shiny new S&W that he didn't read one thing I sent him:suicide2: I'm just trying to get an idea of what he has. He could have done much worse. My main concern is how much he paid being that LE6920's can be had for $1000.
=================================
Old State,
Just curious, have you heard what he paid?
True, like you say, he could have done worse but...depending on what he paid...he might could have done a lot better.
Don't friends frustrate you when you try to help them and then they don't take an hour to investigate a little on their own...Oh well...Some people's kids...
But maybe it's just me...
.
I'm a big M&P15 fan, I own one, but I'm also realistic and knowledgeable about value. I tell the S&W crowd the same thing.
1. If you spent UNDER $600 for the M&P15-SPORT, and that's what you want or could afford, then you did well.
2. If you spent UNDER $800 for the M&P15-"Other models such as straight or OR", and that's what you want or could afford, then you also did well.
3. If you spent OVER $800 for any of the M&P15's, including the high end models, then you didn't do well, because for the same amount of money, you could have bought or built a higher quality Colt, BCM, etc...
I love my M&P15. I bought the OR, because I had plenty of various sights sitting around the house from 30+ years of Frankensteining. But there is no way that I would have paid $800+ for it. I happen to get one on sale, with also rebates, and got it for a final price of $649. But if I was going to pay $850-$1050, I would have gotten a Colt, BCM, or some other options.
That's what I tell S&W M&P15 fans.
Very good summary.
I love my M&P15, but it's no Colt/DD/BCM/Noveske/LMT etc... My gun has run solidly over 3000 rounds and performs well as my beater/training gun. I run any and all ammo through this thing and it has been fine.
I have a DD and you can easily compare/contrast the attention to detail on the guns. My DD is more accurate with a greater variety of ammo than my M&P15.
Very good summary.
I love my M&P15, but it's no Colt/DD/BCM/Noveske/LMT etc... My gun has run solidly over 3000 rounds and performs well as my beater/training gun.
I have a DD and you can easily compare/contrast the attention to detail on the guns. My DD is more accurate than my M&P15 also.
==================================
I have owned two and they were OK. I think S&W's place in the old Chart was appropiate.
Wonder where they'll fit in the new Chart if the difference between the LE and civilian models ends up being true?
.
=================================
Old State,
Just curious, have you heard what he paid?
True, like you say, he could have done worse but...depending on what he paid...he might could have done a lot better.
Don't friends frustrate you when you try to help them and then they don't take an hour to investigate a little on their own...Oh well...Some people's kids...
But maybe it's just me...
.
I'm not sure what he paid. I'm not sure what he thinks is "not a lot" either. He doesn't know what model it is either.
As far as helping friends, I'm known as the guy who researches everything for 3 months before I buy. Many of my friends and family ask me for advice on purchases of things I have bought in the past.
What I always find interesting is when a close friend that I talk to frequently goes out and buys something they know I have researched and never asks for advise. Then they show up with something they overpaid for and/or is a POS and then ask what I think.
I hope he didn't over pay for it.
I'm not sure what he paid. I'm not sure what he thinks is "not a lot" either. He doesn't know what model it is either.
As far as helping friends, I'm known as the guy who researches everything for 3 months before I buy. Many of my friends and family ask me for advice on purchases of things I have bought in the past.
What I always find interesting is when a close friend that I talk to frequently goes out and buys something they know I have researched and never asks for advise. Then they show up with something they overpaid for and/or is a POS and then ask what I think.
I hope he didn't over pay for it.
Ok, now that I had a few hours to think this through... after reading this last statement... what a waste... al kinds of "inuendos" about where the S&W stands in the orders of things... :) and yet.. you start this thing back up and don't even know what model or what he paid... :jester: what a joke..
==================================
I have owned two and they were OK. I think S&W's place in the old Chart was appropiate.
Wonder where they'll fit in the new Chart if the difference between the LE and civilian models ends up being true?
.
I agree.
I bought mine early 2009 and likely overpaid for it. It was a decent deal at the time because you couldn't find any AR guns on the shelves. Found a ORC model for about $925 and snagged it. My first rifle and I learned a hell of a lot reading to educate myself on it.
Mine had a semi-auto BCG with the gas key staked, but staked weakly. The staking didn't completely contact the screws on both sides. I thought that being staked was enough, but after reading on this site, I learned what proper staking was. It was replaced with a BCM F/A carrier, but I am using the original bolt (marked MP). The original C buffer was replaced with a H2 which has significantly improved the feel of the gun.
The barrel was 4140 steel versus the 4150 or better the top tier manufacturers use.
The 1:9 twist doesn't bother me much because this gun will mostly shoot 55 grain FMJ for training, but I do have it set up to run 69 grain OTMs for HD. My future barrels will likely be 1:7 to be able to run 75 grain TAP.
Ok, now that I had a few hours to think this through... after reading this last statement... what a waste... al kinds of "inuendos" about where the S&W stands in the orders of things... :) and yet.. you start this thing back up and don't even know what model or what he paid... :jester: what a joke..
You have yet to contribute one meaningful statement to this thread and I can see your pretty unbiased when it comes to S&W.:blink:
I made no "innuendos" (has 2 n's) so I'm trying to get a grasp on what took your brain a few hours to figure out. If he paid more than $900 he could have made a better choice.
I found out the which shop he bought it from and would be surprised if he didn't overpay for it. Everything they sell is over priced from $23 Pmags ($26 for the windows) to $7 a box Wolf ammo.
A several months back I asked this shop the for their best price on a 6920 if they ordered me one. They said $1450 and that Colt was "overrated, Spikes is what you want for a top notch fighting rifle". I found a LE6920 for $1050 that week. They never heard of DD or BCM.
At that time they had the standard M&P 15 carbine for $1150 and the shop stocks and pushes a ton of S&W products. CDNN has them for $799. There is another dealer 5 miles away that sells most stuff at or very close to internet prices.
He is stopping by this afternoon to show me the gun. I'll find out which model it is. I know that it is not the VTAC so how many variables are there to consider as far as materials used???:jester:(you should make this your avatar)
christcorp
06-05-11, 13:41
I think the point made was, you were dogging your friend's decision to buy the S&W, but you don't know how much he paid for it. If he paid $649 like I did for an M&P15-OR, then I would say for his uses he probably got a great deal. If he paid $649 for a sport version, I'd say he over paid. My magic number is $850 for the standard or higher M&P15's and $600 for the Sport. Anything higher on either, and you could have done much better for the same amount of money. But I think the point was, you are already dogging this guy and you don't know what he paid. He could have gotten a great deal. You're only speculating.
Another thing many people simply REFUSE to understand, is that there are a lot of people who simply do not want to, and won't, buy something like a gun online. They just aren't going to do it. So you have to take what YOU WOULD DO, out of the equation. Yes, a colt 6520 can be bought online for $900 with free magazines and free S/H. A 6920 for a little over $1000. But if a person WON'T BUY ONLINE, then those prices are irrelevant. Doesn't matter. It's like talking to a Buddhist or Muslim, and trying to make your point by using the King James Bible. If they don't believe in it, you CAN'T USE IT in your argument. But what you can do for folks like that, is to educate them to not be impatient, and to look around for sales and specials. That's how I got my M&P15 for $649. From Sportsman's Warehouse. It was an hour drive to get there, but I watched for sales. A friend got a colt 6520 for $925.
But if your friend simply is impatient, or won't order online, or wants to feel the actual gun he's going to buy, then that is understandable. That local gun store probably has a lot of overhead. People think retailers make a lot of money. They don't. Especially with internet sales. That retailer has a $1000+ rent, money put out in inventory, salaries, etc... To think he should sell you that rifle for $50 more than online is ridiculous. He'd be out of business in a year. You pay extra at local gun shops for the convenience. Anyway; I'll be curious to see what and how much your friend paid. He might have gotten an excellent deal. M&P15's are excellent firearms. Whether you use the chart or not, they have an excellent reputation. They might not be a Colt, BCM, DD, Nove, etc... But then again, many people don't need the extra detail that the extra money for those higher end models get you. Even people who use it for work or self defense.
We are doing a lot of speculating here. I have known him since we were kids-about 25 years. His problem is that he can be impulsive.
We had discussed AR's a months ago. He wanted a LE6920 like I have. I went over what goes into a good AR and what you should expect to pay. I suggested buying a BCM upper and a decent lower because he would have more options than Colt offered. He agreed and called me last week to say he wanted to buy the rifle in the next few weeks. Then I get the text. I guarantee he doesn't care about ordering online.
That's how I got my M&P15 for $649. From Sportsman's Warehouse. It was an hour drive to get there, but I watched for sales. A friend got a colt 6520 for $925.
Or, you could have just paid around $700, instead of spending 2 hours on the road (there and back), plus the cost of gas.:jester::jester::jester:
With that said, My friend and I drove over 90 minutes each way up to Scottsdale Gun Club from Tucson so that I could get my DDM4 for $1299 during summer of 2009 (on sale because they apparently had ~25 in stock and they weren't moving). When I got the gun, they were retailing for around $1600 locally and around $1500 online.
When my parents were buying a new refrigerator, they drove around for weeks (seriously) looking for a great deal, obsessing over $50-$100 in savings, not taking into account that they probably spent at least that much in gas, not counting the cost of their time. I suppose that's free because they're retired.
First off, excellent posts Cristcorp.. you pretty much have said in your 2 posts what I could have said, no need to repeat... but the bottom line in this last couple days is, there was nothing to add in the form of a meaningful statement... when this was a meaningless direction. I can appreciate your feelings Oldstate.... but you have seemed to knocked evrything about the gun more so than your frustration in him not holding your hand to the gun store... Sounds like he is a grown-up, had plenty of info from you and made his own decision on what he wanted. Guess you should know by days end more of his reasoning. With that. sorry if you took offense to my posts, guess I did the same with yours..
I can appreciate your feelings Oldstate.... but you have seemed to knocked evrything about the gun more
Please let me know one thing I knocked.
He just left and I saw the rifle. Its an M&P Sport and he paid $580. He had to go so I just gave it a once over. Gas key was properly staked as was the castle nut. The handguard has got to go. I have research the gun more.
christcorp
06-05-11, 18:44
Or, you could have just paid around $700, instead of spending 2 hours on the road (there and back), plus the cost of gas.
Not really comparable. 1) At the time, there were no OR's for $700. Even online. Matter of fact, not sure if there are any currently. Even if there were, you forget that you must take on another $30-$35 for transfer fee. (That's what they charge here). Price was close to a wash, but I got to physically hold and purchase that weapon that day and take it home. 2) I live in the largest city/capitol of Wyoming. Population is only 55,000 people. We routinely must go out of town for certain items. And the nearest town in ANY direction, is an hour. I didn't go there just to buy a gun. But I understand your point. Sort of. Would I have driven 2-3 hours (Denver) for this gun and price? Not sure.
The point however is; individuals have certain things they like and don't like. It's their money. It's their decision. Telling a person that they "Shouldn't" buy a particular gun because it isn't what you'd buy, is in itself wrong. Unless you know for a fact that what he wants to do with it can't be accomplished with such a purchase.
As for the friend in question, he DIDN'T pay too much. The going price for the Sport is in the $500's. He paid going price just about anyplace. He's probably not going to use it for military service, he's not going to use it in a Full-Auto configuration, and he's probably not the type who's going to be going to all the carbine courses with it. Sounds like he was able to get a decent AR for a decent price, and save enough money for ammo and such. I personally don't want a sport, mainly because it doesn't have a forward assist or dust cover. I'm fond of chrome lined instead of melonite.
For professional use, I personally don't know of such occupations where you're required to provide your own AR. And the ones provided are usually quite good. So considering the individual is going to use it probably for home defense, practice, etc... I'd say he did fine. He could have done a lot worse in my opinion. He could have spent $300-$500 more for a Bush or Rock River and gotten nothing BETTER for his money. Some things actually worse.
Now had he spent more than $650, I would say he could have gotten a better S&W. If he spent more than $850, I would have said he could have gotten a colt or BCM. But he spent $580. Sounds like a good deal.
Well said again Mike.. thank you
Logicalpath
06-05-11, 22:18
My first AR was a S&W MP15T and I have to say it was a traumatic experience. The short story(believe me it was a long one) after sending the rifle in three times over a period of one year I finally decided to buy a Colt. By the time it was fixed and being shipped back to me I was already purchasing my first LE6920.
In the end even though they fixed the weapon the third time I just had zero confidence in it's reliability. As a result the gun was sold for 700.00 after I confirmed that it was operational.
Unfortunately, this has left me with a sour taste in my mouth. To the point that I would be scared to buy any AR that was not a Colt.
OK, so I'm pretty scared to post in this thread, but I have to ask:
I just bought my first AR15 and it's a S&W M&P15X. I'm a pistol guy, not an AR guy so while I know the basics from the Army, I'm not an "operator" or even AR "enthusiast" (just yet) - just love the platform and it's flexibility and wanted to have one for fun. Even considering taking a tactical carbine class locally for fun. I just got it so haven't shot it yet.
So the 15X comes with a Troy rear BUIS, and chromed Barrel Bore, Gas Key, Bolt Carrier, and chamber. I paid $1200 which after reading this thread sounds like I paid a very high premium. However, everything in this discussion price wise focused on M&P15OR and similar models. Given this gun's slightly better features, is $1200 completely outrageous?
Here is the spec sheet on it: http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/ps/811008.pdf
Stock pics from S&W's website:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/omega21/811008_01_lg.jpg
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/omega21/811008_02_md.jpg
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/omega21/811008_03_lg.jpg
I like my M&P15A, basically the same rifle bit without the quad rail. I found it for $870 @ CDNN.
I think you did ok with it, others on here would argue that you could have gotten a better rifle for the price, but it's whatever you like.
OK, so I'm pretty scared to post in this thread, but I have to ask:
I just bought my first AR15 and it's a S&W M&P15X. I'm a pistol guy, not an AR guy so while I know the basics from the Army, I'm not an "operator" or even AR "enthusiast" (just yet) - just love the platform and it's flexibility and wanted to have one for fun. Even considering taking a tactical carbine class locally for fun. I just got it so haven't shot it yet.
So the 15X comes with a Troy rear BUIS, and chromed Barrel Bore, Gas Key, Bolt Carrier, and chamber. I paid $1200 which after reading this thread sounds like I paid a very high premium. However, everything in this discussion price wise focused on M&P15OR and similar models. Given this gun's slightly better features, is $1200 completely outrageous?
Here is the spec sheet on it: http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/ps/811008.pdf
Stock pics from S&W's website:
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/omega21/811008_01_lg.jpg
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/omega21/811008_02_md.jpg
http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab287/omega21/811008_03_lg.jpg
An Undocumented Worker
06-12-11, 13:35
It should serve you fine. It may not be as refined a shooter as other guns available on the market, because Smith specced certain things such as gas port size and buffer weights in order to pretty much garauntee that it will run with just about any ammo you feed it.
It just won't shoot as smoothly as say a Colt, DD, or BCM.
I have an M&P 15 V-Tac that I bought in 08 and it has over 3,000 rounds through it now with no malfunctions. I plan on replacing the barrel when i find one that meets all of my requirements. But no one seems to make one that I want yet.
As for now, just go out and shoot it, have fun with it. Worry about the small details after you shoot it enough to familiarize yourself with everything.
OK, so I'm pretty scared to post in this thread, but I have to ask:
I just bought my first AR15 and it's a S&W M&P15X. I'm a pistol guy, not an AR guy so while I know the basics from the Army, I'm not an "operator" or even AR "enthusiast" (just yet) - just love the platform and it's flexibility and wanted to have one for fun. Even considering taking a tactical carbine class locally for fun. I just got it so haven't shot it yet.
So the 15X comes with a Troy rear BUIS, and chromed Barrel Bore, Gas Key, Bolt Carrier, and chamber. I paid $1200 which after reading this thread sounds like I paid a very high premium. However, everything in this discussion price wise focused on M&P15OR and similar models. Given this gun's slightly better features, is $1200 completely outrageous?
Here is the spec sheet on it: http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/ps/811008.pdf
Stock pics from S&W's website:
=======================================
You could have gotten a better rifle for the money BUT...now, when it is all said and done, you've got an AR! :D You could have done a whole lot worse but at least now you've taken the plunge.
Pluses (to me):
Fixed Front Sight
Quality Folding Rear Sight
Lightweight
S&W seems to stand behind their guns
The quad rail is considered to be an advantage to some. Not bad but just not a major advantage to me.
If I had to guess, I think the Folding Sight and the Quad Rail ended up costing you about $300-$350.
So, now get some ammo and mags, add a sling and go shoot the heck out of it.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Sounds a little steep. I paid $1000 for mine with an eotech mounted to it. I've shot about 600-700 rounds though mine without a single issue. I did get a new model I believe. I love the rifle to death, but I do wonder how it runs compared to a BCM/DD/Colt.
The day I bought it:
http://i54.tinypic.com/1zvyafs.jpg
A more recent photo:
http://i56.tinypic.com/21bu555.jpg
My son, son in law, and I all have a S&W AR's. Thousands of rounds through all 3. No malfunctions, no complaints. As stated, because they are over gassed, you may want to move to a heavier buffer to smooth it out. We haven't done this, I mean it's not a 308. Personally, I really like the way mine shoots and my stock trigger is very nice (Better than the one colt I have). If I was running 3 gun or doing rifle comps I might add a compensator and a heavier buffer. It is a gas to shoot.
When we bought ours they were considerably less than a Colt, DD, etc.
"Given this gun's slightly better features, is $1200 completely outrageous?" RE: MP 15X...
Not quite, but for that you could have gotten a DD with similar features if you shopped around. With DD you get a 'more' milspec build and CHF barrel.
I really DON'T know that it would shoot ANY smoother - the DD does likely have a SMALLER gas port, which compensates for the 'over-gassed' carbine system. The Smith does not.
My son got a Smith because it was a CDNN special and he wanted 'optics ready'. ($722 delivered). It is nice NOT to have sights in the way when you are shooting w/optics.
MANY are shooting Smiths and having a decent experience, and they do have MOST of the M4 Milspec features. My son's runs fine.
Yours should serve you well.
The purpose of this forum isn't to poo poo someone's purchase. A S&W you already own is nothing to sneeze at. Your carbine is good to go as far as I'm concerned.
However, for others' edification, one can put a $200 rail and a $50 Magpul BUIS on a $1000 Colt 6920.
christcorp
06-13-11, 15:10
Excellent post 120mm. That's the problem with some people's way of thinking. Most basic rifles, of high quality, shouldn't cost more than $1200. Anything above that isn't really the rifle, but the toys that go on it. grips, scopes, stocks, sights, etc... But the basic gun shouldn't cost that much. If a person "Wants" to pay $2400 for an LMT or even $1600 for a DPMS, it better have some nice toys on it. If not, then in my opinion, you got ripped off. The other problem is that some think a home defense weapon needs to have the same capabilities, specs, etc... as the military equivalent. Even though they won't be crawling on their belly through the mud/dirt, under barbed wire, running hundreds of yards through a town and breaking down doors, etc... Home defense is a totally different environment. Unfortunately, some will deck out their AR with the same specs and way the military M4/M16 is set.
Me personally; not counting scopes/sights, I would never even consider spending more than $1000 on an AR. And you can get a lot of good quality AR's for under $1000. I personally don't care about mil-spec. What i care about is reliability and dependability. And there's enough people who have bought AR's out there giving their opinions to know what I will and won't buy.
jonconsiglio
06-13-11, 16:51
Interesting, christcorp, that you somehow know what everyone will be doing with their ARs and there's no way any of us could use our guns hard enough to warrant needing military quality, or better.
Were you in the military or have you ever been to an advanced carbine class....or basic carbine class, for that matter? You're spreading a strong opinion here on what everyone else needs. I've broken a few ARs that weren't spec, but none that are, under the same type of use.
See, 120mm's opinion is valid here in what he's saying, but you're taking it to a different level and for the record, why don't you tell us your perosnal experience, not just opinion, and what you've done with your carbines to justify this response.
To me right now, you just sound like a guy that owns a hobby grade AR and has an overwhelming need to defend that purchase. And like you, that's just MY opinion.
As for the S&W - if you already own one, it'll do just fine. There may be a couple small things to do that could increase reliability, but all in all, it's a good fun. I wouldn't rush out to buy one, but if I already had one, I wouldn't feel the need to sell it for a better gun. I don't see a reason to go out and buy one though when you can get a BCM for the same price, roughly, if you know that ahead of time.
richdkim77
06-13-11, 18:01
Unfortunately, some will deck out their AR with the same specs and way the military M4/M16 is set.
Out of curiosity, I would love to see some of your setups.
I don't see a reason to go out and buy one though when you can get a BCM for the same price, roughly, if you know that ahead of time.
BCMs are not to be had anywhere around here. I was told something about a big LEO order they were fulfilling so the inventories ran dry temporarily and I didn't feel like waiting.
Well, I honestly expected to hear some pretty strong feedback about me over paying for the M&P15X - and while I fully understand and respect (and agree with) everyone's comments about "could have gone with a different/better brand" I'm glad no one said "you got totally ripped off by paying 1200 for a $700 gun" (by the way, if you feel this way, keep it to yourself, my fantasy has been affirmed;) ). I'm now better educated about the brands so would make a more informed decision in a future purchase. It's funny - my family makes fun of me still because a few years ago when buying a new matress I made a big Excel spreadsheet comparing all the different features I researched ad nauseum. But when it came down to buying an AR which I've been wanting for some time, I went armed with zero knowledge, and allowed impulse to guide me. Won't do that again, but am very glad to learn I didn't bugger this up to badly and didn't get ripped off in a gun shop I had never been to previously. :)
christcorp
06-14-11, 00:59
Interesting, christcorp, that you somehow know what everyone will be doing with their ARs and there's no way any of us could use our guns hard enough to warrant needing military quality, or better.
Were you in the military or have you ever been to an advanced carbine class....or basic carbine class, for that matter? You're spreading a strong opinion here on what everyone else needs. I've broken a few ARs that weren't spec, but none that are, under the same type of use.
See, 120mm's opinion is valid here in what he's saying, but you're taking it to a different level and for the record, why don't you tell us your perosnal experience, not just opinion, and what you've done with your carbines to justify this response.
To me right now, you just sound like a guy that owns a hobby grade AR and has an overwhelming need to defend that purchase. And like you, that's just MY opinion.
As for the S&W - if you already own one, it'll do just fine. There may be a couple small things to do that could increase reliability, but all in all, it's a good fun. I wouldn't rush out to buy one, but if I already had one, I wouldn't feel the need to sell it for a better gun. I don't see a reason to go out and buy one though when you can get a BCM for the same price, roughly, if you know that ahead of time.
I spent 21 years in the military. Retired in 1999. I currently work with the highway patrol. (Not a trooper). But other than as your "hobby", I'd like to know how you could possibly but a civilian AR through the same environmental stress than the military can. Carbine classes are "Hobby". I'm talking about using the weapon for what it was designed for. Some form of offensive or defensive use. So while I agree, that I don't know what most people here will be doing with their AR's; I am completely confident that I know what most of them WON'T be doing with their AR. (Emphasize, "Most")
As for what I have on my AR's; one is a straight stock A2 style frankenstein. The other is a relatively new M&P15-OR that I put on a vertical grip, a set of iron sights, and I swap around a couple different red dot scopes I have hanging around just to play with. Everything else is original. The only internal part I swapped out was the buffer. I shot a friends Colt with an ST-T2 in it, and I thought it felt smoother. So I spent the $27 on the buffer. I like it. Not counting a scope, the most expensive item was a $50 rear sight I got on sale. I like to keep it really simple. '
I have absolutely nothing against anyone for wanting to do whatever they want with their gun. They can spend $2000+ on it and load it up with all the toys they want. It's fun. You can't take the money with you when you die. Have a blast. But I get caught between laughing and being pissed off when I hear people tell those who didn't buy that "High End" AR, that they are risking their and their family's life because it isn't part of the elite AR's. In "Real Life", the overwhelming majority are not going to put their AR through the environmental stress that military weapons are put through. Therefor, even for home defense, a person doesn't need a weapon that's 100% mil-spec. But there will be a ton more people on here telling me how they use their AR for "Serious" purposes, and this isn't a "Hobbiest Site". There are a couple occupations/environments where a civilian AR will be stressed "In real life", but it's very few. And in those cases, you most likely aren't using your Personal AR15. E.g. SWAT probably doesn't let you use your own private weapon. Again; not a damn thing wrong with decking out the AR any way you like. It's only money. But a person who recognizes that their home defense, sport, and hobby uses doesn't require that same spec, shouldn't be ridiculed for their choice.
What is really sad is that you don't even get it. I'll go out on a limb and guess that you weren't in combat arms.
Aside from your whole silly analogy and excuses it makes no sense. Junk AR's do not need "hard military type of use" to fail. Two weeks ago we were out shooting and one of the guys AR's turned into a bolt action all of a sudden. I did the standard checks and low and behold the carrier keys were loose. This was a stock factory part and no one messed with it.
Please explain to the rest of us why these companies cannot do simple shit like stake castle nuts, carrier keys, use the proper materials? I would really like to know because I have asked and cannot get an answer.
I have no idea what you do for your agency, but whatever it is I hope that you don't put your hands on their weapons.
You also continuously throw out ridiculous numbers like 2000.00+ when all the smart people know that many set ups do not cost nearly that much. Of course you are including optics, light, etc... which most of us are not.
I spent 21 years in the military. Retired in 1999. I currently work with the highway patrol. (Not a trooper). But other than as your "hobby", I'd like to know how you could possibly but a civilian AR through the same environmental stress than the military can. Carbine classes are "Hobby". I'm talking about using the weapon for what it was designed for. Some form of offensive or defensive use. So while I agree, that I don't know what most people here will be doing with their AR's; I am completely confident that I know what most of them WON'T be doing with their AR. (Emphasize, "Most")
As for what I have on my AR's; one is a straight stock A2 style frankenstein. The other is a relatively new M&P15-OR that I put on a vertical grip, a set of iron sights, and I swap around a couple different red dot scopes I have hanging around just to play with. Everything else is original. The only internal part I swapped out was the buffer. I shot a friends Colt with an ST-T2 in it, and I thought it felt smoother. So I spent the $27 on the buffer. I like it. Not counting a scope, the most expensive item was a $50 rear sight I got on sale. I like to keep it really simple. '
I have absolutely nothing against anyone for wanting to do whatever they want with their gun. They can spend $2000+ on it and load it up with all the toys they want. It's fun. You can't take the money with you when you die. Have a blast. But I get caught between laughing and being pissed off when I hear people tell those who didn't buy that "High End" AR, that they are risking their and their family's life because it isn't part of the elite AR's. In "Real Life", the overwhelming majority are not going to put their AR through the environmental stress that military weapons are put through. Therefor, even for home defense, a person doesn't need a weapon that's 100% mil-spec. But there will be a ton more people on here telling me how they use their AR for "Serious" purposes, and this isn't a "Hobbiest Site". There are a couple occupations/environments where a civilian AR will be stressed "In real life", but it's very few. And in those cases, you most likely aren't using your Personal AR15. E.g. SWAT probably doesn't let you use your own private weapon. Again; not a damn thing wrong with decking out the AR any way you like. It's only money. But a person who recognizes that their home defense, sport, and hobby uses doesn't require that same spec, shouldn't be ridiculed for their choice.
My son, son in law, and I all have a S&W AR's. Thousands of rounds through all 3. No malfunctions, no complaints. As stated, because they are over gassed, you may want to move to a heavier buffer to smooth it out. We haven't done this, I mean it's not a 308. Personally, I really like the way mine shoots and my stock trigger is very nice (Better than the one colt I have). If I was running 3 gun or doing rifle comps I might add a compensator and a heavier buffer. It is a gas to shoot.
When we bought ours they were considerably less than a Colt, DD, etc.
Besides smoothing the recoil impulse, replacing the C buffer with a H or H2, may also improve the reliability by reducing the probability of issues like bolt bounce. The extra weight also makes the cycling a bit less violent which could help reduce wear on parts.
I spent 21 years in the military. Retired in 1999. I currently work with the highway patrol. (Not a trooper). But other than as your "hobby", I'd like to know how you could possibly but a civilian AR through the same environmental stress than the military can. Carbine classes are "Hobby". I'm talking about using the weapon for what it was designed for. Some form of offensive or defensive use. So while I agree, that I don't know what most people here will be doing with their AR's; I am completely confident that I know what most of them WON'T be doing with their AR. (Emphasize, "Most")
As for what I have on my AR's; one is a straight stock A2 style frankenstein. The other is a relatively new M&P15-OR that I put on a vertical grip, a set of iron sights, and I swap around a couple different red dot scopes I have hanging around just to play with. Everything else is original. The only internal part I swapped out was the buffer. I shot a friends Colt with an ST-T2 in it, and I thought it felt smoother. So I spent the $27 on the buffer. I like it. Not counting a scope, the most expensive item was a $50 rear sight I got on sale. I like to keep it really simple. '
I have absolutely nothing against anyone for wanting to do whatever they want with their gun. They can spend $2000+ on it and load it up with all the toys they want. It's fun. You can't take the money with you when you die. Have a blast. But I get caught between laughing and being pissed off when I hear people tell those who didn't buy that "High End" AR, that they are risking their and their family's life because it isn't part of the elite AR's. In "Real Life", the overwhelming majority are not going to put their AR through the environmental stress that military weapons are put through. Therefor, even for home defense, a person doesn't need a weapon that's 100% mil-spec. But there will be a ton more people on here telling me how they use their AR for "Serious" purposes, and this isn't a "Hobbiest Site". There are a couple occupations/environments where a civilian AR will be stressed "In real life", but it's very few. And in those cases, you most likely aren't using your Personal AR15. E.g. SWAT probably doesn't let you use your own private weapon. Again; not a damn thing wrong with decking out the AR any way you like. It's only money. But a person who recognizes that their home defense, sport, and hobby uses doesn't require that same spec, shouldn't be ridiculed for their choice.
Another sensible post, thanks Mike. No doubt in my mind, someone else doesn't get it.. your facts and examples are dead on...
I spent 21 years in the military. Retired in 1999. I currently work with the highway patrol. (Not a trooper). But other than as your "hobby", I'd like to know how you could possibly but a civilian AR through the same environmental stress than the military can. Carbine classes are "Hobby". I'm talking about using the weapon for what it was designed for. Some form of offensive or defensive use. So while I agree, that I don't know what most people here will be doing with their AR's; I am completely confident that I know what most of them WON'T be doing with their AR. (Emphasize, "Most")
As for what I have on my AR's; one is a straight stock A2 style frankenstein. The other is a relatively new M&P15-OR that I put on a vertical grip, a set of iron sights, and I swap around a couple different red dot scopes I have hanging around just to play with. Everything else is original. The only internal part I swapped out was the buffer. I shot a friends Colt with an ST-T2 in it, and I thought it felt smoother. So I spent the $27 on the buffer. I like it. Not counting a scope, the most expensive item was a $50 rear sight I got on sale. I like to keep it really simple. '
I have absolutely nothing against anyone for wanting to do whatever they want with their gun. They can spend $2000+ on it and load it up with all the toys they want. It's fun. You can't take the money with you when you die. Have a blast. But I get caught between laughing and being pissed off when I hear people tell those who didn't buy that "High End" AR, that they are risking their and their family's life because it isn't part of the elite AR's. In "Real Life", the overwhelming majority are not going to put their AR through the environmental stress that military weapons are put through. Therefor, even for home defense, a person doesn't need a weapon that's 100% mil-spec. But there will be a ton more people on here telling me how they use their AR for "Serious" purposes, and this isn't a "Hobbiest Site". There are a couple occupations/environments where a civilian AR will be stressed "In real life", but it's very few. And in those cases, you most likely aren't using your Personal AR15. E.g. SWAT probably doesn't let you use your own private weapon. Again; not a damn thing wrong with decking out the AR any way you like. It's only money. But a person who recognizes that their home defense, sport, and hobby uses doesn't require that same spec, shouldn't be ridiculed for their choice.
Another good post. In my opinion, you again make some very good points. I agree too that carbine classes are a hobby. Very good to take, but a hobby. No one shoots back at you in a class. Some take a class or two and think that they are way to important. And, it's nobodies business what you did in the military. I take this opportunity to thank you and all else that have served that are members of this site.
christcorp
06-14-11, 09:27
IG: I was using the $2000 as an example. I just read a discussion/debate about the difference between a $2400 LMT and a $1600 DPMS. I am quite aware of how much a quality AR can be bought for. I've said many times about the differences in price. I even started a thread informing people of the $899 colt 6520. But you conveniently forget these things. I've also said numerous times that colt, lmt, bcm, nove, etc... are better rifles head - to - head when compared to many of the others. Including the M&P15 that we happen to be discussing.
I've also said many times that if a person starts paying in the $900-$1200 range for their M&P15, DPMS, bush, etc... that they'd be BETTER OFF getting a Colt, BCM, etc... that they can get for the same price. I've even said that if my M&P15OR cost $949 "Normal price" instead of the $649 that I got it for, that I would never have bought it, because I could have gotten a colt or bcm for that amount of money. But you continue to refuse to acknowledge that I've said these things. You want to believe that because I don't agree with some of the importance laid upon mil-spec or higher-end AR's that I don't know what I'm talking about. That's fine; believe what you want.
I happen to believe that people who own such guns as AR's, don't simply buy them and put them under the bed in case of emergency. (Like many handgun owners who buy a pistol for home defense, and put it in their drawer and never shoot it). I believe that anyone who spent money on an AR is probably shooting it. Maybe not 2 or 3 times a month like me, or 5-6 times a month like you or others. But they are shooting it. And I'm sure that if their rifle is cause any issues with ejecting, feeding, accuracy, recoil, etc... that their confidence level for using it for home defense will become questioned; and they'll probably take the rifle out of rotation until the issue has been corrected.
Next week, I will have had my M&P15 for exactly 6 months. I have now shot just shy of 4,000 rounds through it. 90% of the ammo is steel case russian ammo. Mixture of tula, herters, wolf, silver/brown bear, MFS, and barnaul. The other 10% has been Mil-Surplus lake city and PMC bronze. I have not had one issue whatsoever with this M&P15-OR. And while an AR is not my primary home defense weapon, I have 100% confidence in this weapon if it's ever needed. And "IF" a person had similar performance with their DPMS, then they'd probably be just as confident in their weapon. Their/My 4,000 rounds of actual shooting probably trumps an opinion. Are there some junk AR's out there? Yup. I've said that a number of times too, but you've forgotten that too apparently. There's a handful or so of AR's that I won't buy, either because I have read too many problems with them, OR, like the bushmaster, it is way too overpriced, and you can get a colt, bcm, etc... for the same amount of money that was spent. Point is: there's a lot of good AR's out there that can be fine home defense weapons, that don't have to be 100% mil-spec.
jklaughrey
06-14-11, 09:41
What I am noticing is that Christcorp posts and Sr71 and Turbo go (DELETED). Do you guys take a number, or stumble over each other to be first? Personally, you all are trolls. I have a theory, perhaps you are the same person just shouting out accolades unto yourself. My opinion, but you guys really should give it a rest. Zero of the fanboyism, back slapping is pertinent on this board!
jonconsiglio
06-14-11, 09:47
BCMs are not to be had anywhere around here. I was told something about a big LEO order they were fulfilling so the inventories ran dry temporarily and I didn't feel like waiting.
BCM was just an example. Some BCM uppers are in stock and you can pick up a Noveske or DD lower, again just an example.
I don't think you made a bad choice. I would have went with the next step up since I prefer auto carriers and smaller gas ports. You can change the buffers and carriers on ARs but you can't easily make the gas port smaller.
I'm sure the S&W will work just fine for most people and I wouldn't put someone down for buying one. I just look at it like someone buying a Sigma at the local gun shop for MSRP (just for example) when they could have looked online and bought the M&P for very little more. It's a better gun regardless of what you do with it, so TO ME it's worth that little extra but I put a lot of rounds through my guns and they get beat up at times.
Even as a home defense gun, I'm sure the M&P will do just fine.
What I am noticing is that Christcorp posts and Sr71 and Turbo go suck his cock. Do you guys take a number, or stumble over each other to be first? Personally, you all are trolls. I have a theory, perhaps you are the same person just shouting out accolades unto yourself. My opinion, but you guys really should give it a rest. Zero of the fanboyism, back slapping is pertinent on this board!
hey!!! here's our ole buddy.... No need to get all nasty on us, we just happen to see things a little different than you. Now you come back into this thread and start crap with some nasty stuff I believe you would never say to my face. I'm a troll for holding my hand up and agreeing with another member who is much more elegant and accurate with his words than I am. I happen to agree with Mike, so I tend to let it be known, he is not alone. You, on the other hand are an embarassment to this board and it's members for talking publicly like this. I'm not going to pretend to be a choirboy here, I'm more than capable of matching your vocabulary, but when I am in someone elses home, I try to bite my tongue... when I can. Your comments are now laughable as they were totally expected from a boy that carries an unloaded gun... :jester:
It should serve you fine. It may not be as refined a shooter as other guns available on the market, because Smith specced certain things such as gas port size and buffer weights in order to pretty much garauntee that it will run with just about any ammo you feed it.
It just won't shoot as smoothly as say a Colt, DD, or BCM.
That is about the best "in a nutshell" post I've seen regarding the M&P15.
Mine has been very reliable over 16,000 rounds....but whenever I shoot it side by side with a properly specced rifle, it feels harsh and "lumpy", for want of better words...even with my extra power spring and H2 buffer in there slowing things down a bit. All in all its a good rifle and I would not hesitate to pick it up in an emergency....but no doubt about it, side by side with rifles with properly sized gas ports, it feels rough and it takes longer to realign for accurate follow on shots. It was my first AR15 (and for a couple of years, my only rifle period, which is how it ended up with the high round count)...and I don't shoot it that much these days, but I won't be selling it.
The guy who bought one recently - I think you'll really enjoy the Smith - you've not wasted your money. I'd recommend shooting the crap out of it (and shooting crap cheap ammo out of it too....they do excel at that ;))...when you come to buy or build your next rifle (and you will.....:)), you'll have learned a lot and will know what to do.
All the dickie-waving can stop, pervs.
Now.
If anybody really, really wants to have The Last Word, let me save you the time....mods win. Every time.
christcorp
06-14-11, 10:03
joncon: I've said that a number of times and couldn't agree more. Paying $900-$1200 for a M&P, Bush, DPMS, etc... is silly. You could have bought a colt, BCM, Daniel, etc... for about the same price.
JK; why the attitude? I think you just don't get it. There are plenty of attributes to an AR that simply aren't as important as some want to believe.
1. Staking a gas key: Very important. Castle Nut? Not so much.
2. 4140 steel instead of 4150 or higher steel in the barrel: Not so much.
3. An AR BCG instead of an M16 BCG: Not very important
4. 1:9 twist instead of 1:7: Not so important
These are just some examples of where a 100% mil-spec AR isn't that important for civilian use. Including home defense purposes. But purely from an economic stand point, just like i said above, if a person is going to spend $900+ on an M&P, Bush, Oly, RR, DPMS, etc... they would/should have looked at spending roughly the same amount of money on the Colt, BCM, DD, etc... But there are some people that were able to find some good deals in the $650-$750 range. And those minor differences such as barrel steel, twist, BCG, etc... are not significant when it comes to home defense needs.
jonconsiglio
06-14-11, 10:22
EDIT - Answered above
jklaughrey
06-14-11, 10:26
Double tap
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I personally don't care about mil-spec. What i care about is reliability and dependability.
These two TYPICALLY go together. In VERY few instances do they not.
C4
jklaughrey
06-14-11, 11:20
Christ, I get it. But realize that this board is directed towards for serious end users. Your examples, let us just say, I hope you never put your hands on any mil/le duty weapons.
Turbo, I used a club instead of a rapier, u got my point. I am not your buddy, and would say what I want to your face. You are a troll, more than 90% of your poats are in the discussion praising Christcorp. If that doesn't make u a troll then I guess you are un love.
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Carbine classes are "Hobby". I'm talking about using the weapon for what it was designed for. Some form of offensive or defensive use. So while I agree, that I don't know what most people here will be doing with their AR's; I am completely confident that I know what most of them WON'T be doing with their AR. (Emphasize, "Most")
This would be an incorrect assumption on your part. The police are not going to protect me. I am responsible for this. That means that the better prepared I am, the better the chance I will survive.
As far as weapon selections, I prefer to have a known quality and reliable weapon. Do you have to have a $2k AR to do this? Nope. A $983 dollar BCM will work just fine.
C4
christcorp
06-14-11, 11:58
This would be an incorrect assumption on your part. The police are not going to protect me. I am responsible for this. That means that the better prepared I am, the better the chance I will survive.
As far as weapon selections, I prefer to have a known quality and reliable weapon. Do you have to have a $2k AR to do this? Nope. A $983 dollar BCM will work just fine.
C4
Grant, I agree with a lot of what you say. I do still believe a carbine class is more hobby and fun than a defense measure. IOW; you don't need to take a carbine class to know how to protect yourself.
My contention however is with some people's definition of "Quality". Using the "Chart", provided below, exactly what missing mil-spec on the M&P15 is potentially life threatening for civilian home defense, because the quality is supposedly lower?
1. AR15 BCG instead of M16? (Not shooting full auto)
2. 4140 barrel steel instead of 4150 or B-11595E? Again, not Full auto and the heat associated with it.
3. Because the barrel was "Batch tested". A person should have enough experience with their weapon prior to relying on it for defense. They should know if it's reliable.
4. 1:9 barrel twist instead of 1:7? Unless you're shooting 70+ grain bullets for defense, it's not an issue.
5. Single hand guard shield instead of double? No reply; that's just silly for making it not worthy for defensive purposes.
6. Carbine buffer instead of a heavy? Unless your AR is experiencing feeding/ejecting issues; which you should have caught during the hundreds of rounds you went through for familiarization; i'd say that too is not an issue.
7. "Not On the Chart". Possible/probable over-gassed. This goes hand in hand with the buffer. 95%+ of most people's ammo is .223. It's not 5.56 NATO. If they aren't experiencing any feeding/ejection issues, then the over-gassing is not an issue. Is it possible that it could wear a part pre-maturely? Yes. But we're talking a shit-load of rounds. It's like arguing that a chrome lined is better because it can handle 36,000 rounds instead of the 26,000 rounds of a melonite treated barrel.
So what exactly makes this M&P15 so unreliable for home defense? I've already said that some things like a staked gas-key is VERY IMPORTANT. But this thread is referencing an M&P15; not a bush, CMMG, or Oly. So how is my family in MORE danger because I have this M&P15 instead of a colt or BCM?
And JK: Just because you take a carbine class, doesn't make you a more "Serious" end user. And you keep talking about Mil/LE duty weapons. Guess what? You aren't allowed to bring your own!!! And mil/le duty is not the same as home/self defense duty. Hell; LE duty isn't even the same as Military duty.
http://zatx7g.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pGMnD1MUghkZMfhodbMX6hOf_BdPsgrLzXSLPVZ__hkCMth0fyM4jH1ANPVE66omg8vOyYJ7TVy90f4dWsuyoimrR0267MrUh/m4chart.png
Doc Glockster
06-14-11, 12:12
Just because you take a carbine class, doesn't make you a more "Serious" end user.
I shouldn't really dive into this because it's getting off topic.
But if you take a professional class, how can it not make you a more serious user?
What do you suggest as an alternative? Three gun matches? Join the military or law enforcement? The latter are not even an option for most people. Some have done both and still see the value in carbine classes.
So what then?
How about watching re-runs of "The Unit", or watching "BlackHawk Down" over and over?
No offense, but your statement just defies logic.
Grant, I agree with a lot of what you say. I do still believe a carbine class is more hobby and fun than a defense measure. IOW; you don't need to take a carbine class to know how to protect yourself.
As someone that teaches new shooters how to run their firearm, I can tell you that you are 100% wrong. Not only do they not know to how to zero their AR's, load their AR's, check to see if their AR's are loaded, work the controlls or lubricate them, they sure as hell have no idea how to use them correctly in various positions or actions (kneeling, prone, standing, moving). We won't even discuss such things as proper use of cover, room clearing or low light.
My contention however is with some people's definition of "Quality". Using the "Chart", provided below, exactly what missing mil-spec on the M&P15 is potentially life threatening for civilian home defense, because the quality is supposedly lower?
There are different definitions of quality. Some will tell you that a Saturn is a "good enough" car. I would say no to that.
Would I take a S&W AR over just about any other AR (less BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, etc)? Yes I would.
What I have come to realize though is that were are all at different levels. Some people NEVER shoot their guns. Some shoot them 3 times a year and still others shoot 100rds a month. If you are any of the above, whatever you buy will most likely run just fine.
1. AR15 BCG instead of M16? (Not shooting full auto)
2. 4140 barrel steel instead of 4150 or B-11595E? Again, not Full auto and the heat associated with it.
3. Because the barrel was "Batch tested". A person should have enough experience with their weapon prior to relying on it for defense. They should know if it's reliable.
4. 1:9 barrel twist instead of 1:7? Unless you're shooting 70+ grain bullets for defense, it's not an issue.
5. Single hand guard shield instead of double? No reply; that's just silly for making it not worthy for defensive purposes.
6. Carbine buffer instead of a heavy? Unless your AR is experiencing feeding/ejecting issues; which you should have caught during the hundreds of rounds you went through for familiarization; i'd say that too is not an issue.
7. "Not On the Chart". Possible/probable over-gassed. This goes hand in hand with the buffer. 95%+ of most people's ammo is .223. It's not 5.56 NATO. If they aren't experiencing any feeding/ejection issues, then the over-gassing is not an issue. Is it possible that it could wear a part pre-maturely? Yes. But we're talking a shit-load of rounds. It's like arguing that a chrome lined is better because it can handle 36,000 rounds instead of the 26,000 rounds of a melonite treated barrel.
When we get away from mil-spec guns, we open ourselves up to a bunch of possible issues. These range from faulty parts to things coming loose, to being over gassed (which will wear out the gun even quicker EVEN if using .223 ammo). How many rounds? Hard to say, but one thing is for certain is that you are not doing yourself any favors.
So what exactly makes this M&P15 so unreliable for home defense? I've already said that some things like a staked gas-key is VERY IMPORTANT. But this thread is referencing an M&P15; not a bush, CMMG, or Oly. So how is my family in MORE danger because I have this M&P15 instead of a colt or BCM?
What makes it unreliable? Nothing. Is it the best choice? No. There are different levels of reliablity just like there are different types of end users.
I am a S&W LE Dealer for the State of Ohio. While I like the direction the company is going with their AR's (which I had a small part to play in), I would not own one for a defensive purpose.
This should tell you a lot. ;)
C4
christcorp
06-14-11, 12:28
Doc: Maybe I should have said - Just because a person DOESN'T take a carbine class, doesn't mean they AREN'T a "Serious end user. Some people take carbine classes because they are fun and they love shooting their firearms. Some, because they have a military fetish and like pretending they are similar to military. Others because they truly want to be better prepared if using their AR for defensive purposes. Carbine classes definitely have their place. And I probably should have said it in "Reverse". Not that taking a carbine class makes you a more serious end user; but that you can be a very serious end user without having to take a carbine class. You mentioned a few examples of people with a lot of experience. Point well taken.
Grant; I agree with a lot of what you say. I respect everything you say. But I can't say that I agree with all of it. But that's cool. I do respect your position. And I am not in that category of users you classified me as. I shoot, just in my AR's, between 500-1000 rounds a month. Depends on what else I'm shooting, and other interests I'm involved in. But my Frankenstein, which is about 22 years old, and has on and off use, has over 20,000 rounds through it. My M&P15 has about 4,000 rounds through it. I don't feel I "Needed" to have a colt, bcm, dd, etc... If I would have paid $900+ for my M&P15, I definitely would have bought a different AR; but for what I paid, I have no need for a "Better" AR. Even for defense.
Beat Trash
06-14-11, 12:32
I just found this topic. WOW...
As Grant has mentioned, when you get away from the Mil Spec's of how to properly build an AR, you increase the chances of having issues with reliability. If you gun is a true hobby gun, then go for it. But even many hobby guns are used in matches, where reliability is valued.
Many AR owners will never have to carry their gun into harms way as part of their job description, yet they want their gun to be able to be used for self defense. The gun who grabs his AR from under the bed to protect his family when someone is attempting to kick in the front door now has the same need for reliability as the LEO grabbing his Patrol Rifle during a "shots fired" run.
So I offer that a gun that is properly built according to the mil spec's should be a concern for most buyers. Even if you only need that reliability one time, that one time could be very important to you.
To say attending classes is a hobby is correct only if the individual also enjoys the classes. Traveling around, meeting various different instructors and students from various backgrounds, making new contacts can be enjoyable.
But to say attending classes is a hobby in that it's not necessary, or a waste of time is wrong. To attend classes given by qualified instructors is training. Training on how to use the gun, how to put rounds on target. Training on how to limit rounds being put on you.
This is no different than owning a handgun for self defense. You may feel that you can go out and buy yourself a pistol. You can take it out somewhere and plink at beer cans until you hit them more often than not. You can then say to the world that you don't need any training with this gun because you are able to adequately protect yourself with this gun. If you honestly believe this, then you are a fool.
jklaughrey
06-14-11, 12:34
Christcorp, you have no idea what I use my weapons for. And yes my dept. does authorize personal weapons for duty. I should know I co authored the policy. And while many here haven't been in harms way or will be in the future, common sense does make a stronger argument than "as good as xxxx". If I have to rely upon something which I have before I will make sure the item is the best and most reliable I can muster. Any argument against this logic is just ignorance.
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The beauty of this site is we all have learned the differances with AR's, because it is beaten into us. Now..... if I or someone else states they are satisfied with something other than your brand of koolade we are beaten like we are criminals. That is what I do not get. Calling me names like a little kid is really a trip... that really changes my mind... the funny part is the more sense Mike makes the nastier the responses from a few here, like JKL especially. But it is sad to see a grown, (I think) man and possibly someone in law enforcement with the authority to write policy..... now that is scary, respond in the fashion you do. I said or did nothing to provoke you, other than state my position. I own no less than 7 AR's now, in a few different calibers.... I see the difference in performance, but in all of them, failure has not happened... I have no problem grabbing one of my Pre-ban Colt 223 or 9mm, or grabbing my M&P15orc, PWA or EA pre-bans.... they were good enough for LAPD.... should be good enough for me.. I see post after post in this thread and others of all the M&P owners being totally happy with their purchase, guess that is good enough for me. no need to argue with so called experts.. I see the differences
jklaughrey
06-14-11, 15:27
Good luck, drive on then turbo, and dont ever address me again on this site.
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jklaughrey
06-14-11, 15:31
Good luck, drive on then turbo, and dont ever address me again on this site.
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I own an M&P15-MOE, and while it has given me trouble-free service thus far, I freely and honestly admit that it is an inferior weapon to others such as BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, Noveske and LMT, just to name a few. With that being said, I have no reason to doubt that my carbine can meet MY LOW SPEED, HIGH DRAG needs at this point in my life. I do keep my M&P as a defensive weapon, however, I focus more on my defensive pistol because it is more enjoyable to shoot, more challenging to learn to use and more likely to be needed in an emergency. I wish I had found M4C before I bought my AR, as I'd have made a more informed decision and bought a BCM Middy from Grant, just like I did my M&P9 (which I chose due to massive amounts of positive and knowledgable information I found on this site-Thanks guys).
With that being said, Mods, please shut this thread down. I think it has run its course and is spiraling out of control and becoming the very thing that M4C is so beautifully not.
While no one on M4C is a god, I find it disgusting that people have the audacity to argue and name call with folks like Iraqgunz, C4IGrant and Rob_s.
Please shut it down.
jonconsiglio
06-14-11, 15:55
Just because you take a carbine class, doesn't make you a more "Serious" end user. And you keep talking about Mil/LE duty weapons. Guess what? You aren't allowed to bring your own!!! And mil/le duty is not the same as home/self defense duty. Hell; LE duty isn't even the same as Military duty.
You can use your own in many of these roles. Some security contractors depending on company policy and area of operation and some LE whether it's patrol or SWAT.
As for ammo, I run 5.56 almost exclusively at a very minimum of well over 1,000 a month, sometimes many times more.
Another thing about these "hobby" classes - I've already touched on this, but had it not been for a drill we worked in an advanced class and I practice on a regular basis, I might not be here right now. A few of the things I've learned in these classes have kept me alive. It's far from a hobby, and this was learned before I made any money from firearms.
As has been said similarly before, I'd take a shooter with a Bushamaster (or similar) than a gun owner with a BCM. Funny thing is, I don't know that many quality shooters that have been at it a whoile, that haven't either upgrade the guts of their commercial grade rifle or replaced it all together.
S&W makes very good firearms but are they built to the same standard as the recognized best of the breed? I don't believe so. I believe they are just very good commercial quality arms...
there are significant differences in carbines built to adhere to the TDP other than simply the materials - it wasn't too long ago that S&W had oversized gas ports and .223 spec chambers if indeed, they still don't - the attention and commitment to proper procedures stemming from the initial mission statement and corporate philosophy is where hard use or longterm issues will tell.
I don't take issue with the 1/7 vs 1/9 twist (heck, I wish they were ALL 1/8) provided you understand and limit your ammo choices... nor is the buffer that a lower comes with much of an issue, except for the cost that needs to be factored back into the purchase price if you need to replace the standard CAR buffer with an H...
a double heat shield is useless to me as I, in fact, prefer to buy my uppers stripped down to customize them to my preferences. but the other issues are essential to me as a product from company that starts with a manufacturing standard and philosophy will always be better from inception than one built to a market price point.
firearms (or competition motorcycles, sewing machines, skis, yoyos, anything for that matter...) built for a purpose, will always be better than those built for commercial use. my issue is, with the difference in cost of these ARs being so minimal, the only excuse that I can see to choose the one over the other would be availability.
If I were to own several AR's for sporting and casual use, I would feel pretty good about purchasing a S&W. however, if I were only able to own ONE... it would be a BCM, Colt, DD, LMT, etc...
Doc Glockster
06-14-11, 16:47
I have to say something about recommending a weapon just because a law enforcement agency uses it.
I used to be in law enforcement. It is a government agency. The officers do not order the firearms for agency use if the agency is buying a bunch of them for the armory (generally). They may submit recommendations, but it is the buyers that put it out to bid and supply the requirement. My agency was inches from ordering Bushmaster rifles. I had experienced quality control problems with the brand, and told the purchasing agent so. I suggested a list of specifications so that a top tier manufacturer like Colt was more likely to get the bid. For example, I suggested that the qualifying bidder had to have sold complete weapons to the military.
In a nutshell, the one person with little or no technical knowledge (the buyer) was the person who would have chosen our agency's AR15 carbines.
You just cannot use a law enforcement agency's purchase as much of an endorsement, at least not in my experience.
Good luck, drive on then turbo, and dont ever address me again on this site.
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Ya know what JKL.. you attacked me, so I say to you... don't address me, and I won't have to address you... pretty simple stuff... eh.. :) now you can move on.
jklaughrey
06-14-11, 17:35
......
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christcorp
06-14-11, 17:35
iCarbine: if you don't like the thread or posts, then don't read them... and don't comment on them. It's not your place to ask the moderators to shut down a thread. Who are you??? It would be different if you started the thread. But you didn't. So go color and read something else if you don't like it here.
ra2bach: Thank you for your post. You addressed my points, and I think we are in total agreement. Many of the things that are mil-spec aren't really that necessary. e.g. 1:9 twist, heat shield, etc... I also agree that there are "Some Mil-Spec" traits that are VERY IMPORTANT. I consider a properly staked gas key to be very important. And because this thread started as a S&W M&P15 thread, I wasn't going to comment on bush, RR, Oly, etc... supposedly not having a staked gas key. And I totally agree with IG that there's really no reason that a manufacturer couldn't do such a SIMPLE THING as slamming a piece of metal with a cold chisel. And that definitely brings up the question: "If a manufacturer was so cheap, that they could hit a piece of metal 1 time with a hammer, is it possible that they skimped on other things". This is a very valid question.
But again; this thread is about an M&P15. S&W does stake the gas key and castle nut on their M&P15s. In my opinion; the only areas that S&W varied from the "Mil-Spec", were in areas that really doesn't matter much to the operation, function, reliability, or dependability of the weapon. You mentioned those. Now we could disagree on a couple of differences that S&W took in their production. E.g. Grant and I will disagree on the over-gassing. To me, it's not a big deal. Might be if we're talking about premature wear/tear on the bolt, but i don't necessarily agree with that. For the amount of rounds, and the inexpensive price of a BCG. But we can disagree. I don't think either would say that this would cause the weapon to be less reliable.
Anyway; thanks for addressing my comments. I appreciate it. Thanks... Mike.....
SWATcop556
06-14-11, 17:51
Everyone needs to step back and think before they post. Several of you are very close to a involuntary vacation.
Army Chief
06-14-11, 18:14
I'm not feeling nearly so generous. This thread has devolved into something that is well beneath the quality standards of the site, and will not continue.
If there are further technical insights or non-inflammatory points to be made on this topic, you are welcome to start a new thread. This one is an abomination, and will go no farther.
AC
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