View Full Version : Cold Hammer Forged or Stainless steel?
In the process of getting all the stuff for my first AR and am wondering if I should go with a 16" BMC 410 barrel or a BFH barrel? My plan is a 16" with a 12" DD lite rail. Down to choosing metal now. It will be set up as a GP gun with light and irons until I get the money for a dot. I am using this to fill the 25yrd to 300 yrd gao in my gear. Probley a class or 2, weekly range time, and general varmint/plinking. I know the hammer forged will last longer, but does the accuracy suffer? I'm not expecting to use calipers to measure groups, but i consider 2" at 100yards a max.
Alaskapopo
01-11-10, 23:25
Stainless is great for applications where accuracy matters a lot and you don't mind shorter barrel life. I have a stainless barrel on my three gun rifle. However on rifles where you want long service life and can live with 1moa to 2moa performance then cold hammer forged chrome lined is the barrel for you. With a good stainless barrel and match ammo you can expect half to three quarter moa groups at least that has been my experience. With Chrome plated guns you can expect 1.25 to 2moa performance again that has been my experience. My Noveske is the best chrome plated gun I have and it will hold 1.25 moa for 5 shot groups. My Colt is more of a 2 moa gun my new Daniel Defense is a 1.6 moa gun. The colt and DD are chrome. My Larue Stealth three gun rigle with the stainless barrel is capable of .5moa groups.
For what you listed as your intended uses I would go with the Cold Hammer forged chrome lined barrel.
Pat
that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. 1.5moa is acceptable. Is that with match ammo or ball or what? I don't plan to bench the gun but I do want to know it will make the shot I want. I am a F-class shooter and can shoot, but I plan this as more of a combat DMRish type rig. We do a shoot at the range that is 10 rapid off hand 100yrds, 10 rapid slow 200yrds and 20 rapid prone 300trds. the shots are at a 6", 12" and 6x12" plates. Its all iron sights anf combat type rifles and I've been using a Garand and I think a carbine would be a lot more fun and easy.
Alaskapopo
01-12-10, 01:21
that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. 1.5moa is acceptable. Is that with match ammo or ball or what? I don't plan to bench the gun but I do want to know it will make the shot I want. I am a F-class shooter and can shoot, but I plan this as more of a combat DMRish type rig. We do a shoot at the range that is 10 rapid off hand 100yrds, 10 rapid slow 200yrds and 20 rapid prone 300trds. the shots are at a 6", 12" and 6x12" plates. Its all iron sights anf combat type rifles and I've been using a Garand and I think a carbine would be a lot more fun and easy.
That is with my reloads using Sierra 77 grain Match King Bullets.
Pat
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/1-4-10%20range%20report%20DD%20m4%20and%20Colt/Rangereporttargetphoto.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/1-4-10%20range%20report%20DD%20m4%20and%20Colt/ColtPic.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/1-4-10%20range%20report%20DD%20m4%20and%20Colt/DanielDefenserangereport.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/1-4-10%20range%20report%20DD%20m4%20and%20Colt/DanielDefenseM4.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/N4group5.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/NoveskeN4group2.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/Noveske.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/75grainTAP.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/77grainH335.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/BestLaruegroup.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Targets/10shotlaruegroup.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/AR%20style%20rifles/Laure.jpg
CHF. Why? The accuracy can be outstanding (.75-1MOA). These barrels will be lighter and give you MUCH greater life than a SS barrel. They also tend to be cheaper.
C4
Well the uppers I'm looking at both cost the same. How many rounds can you expect out of a chrome lined hammer forged barrel? Someone recently posted something like 20000! Thats a ton of rounds. I get about 2500 out of my F-class rig, and most of the service rifle guys are around 3000 to 5000. Do BFH barrels hold point of impact when they get warm?
Well the uppers I'm looking at both cost the same. How many rounds can you expect out of a chrome lined hammer forged barrel? Someone recently posted something like 20000! Thats a ton of rounds. I get about 2500 out of my F-class rig, and most of the service rifle guys are around 3000 to 5000. Do BFH barrels hold point of impact when they get warm?
It kind of depends on the ammo you use and the rate of fire, but I would say that a HF barrel will give you at least 35,000-40,000 rounds.
C4
Well the uppers I'm looking at both cost the same. How many rounds can you expect out of a chrome lined hammer forged barrel? Someone recently posted something like 20000! Thats a ton of rounds. I get about 2500 out of my F-class rig, and most of the service rifle guys are around 3000 to 5000. Do BFH barrels hold point of impact when they get warm?
you're talking about two different things here. it's not about how many rounds you can actually shoot through a barrel, but how many before accuracy degrades beyond what you deem acceptable. I had a 20" Douglas Match Grade SS barrel on my service rifle. shooting SMKs over Varget, it was a tack driver for about 1800 rounds. its accuracy was "acceptable" till about 2600 rds when I pulled it off and sold it.
any barrel, whether CHF, or stainless, or chrome lined, if it isn't shooting a minute or less, out of the gate, really shouldn't be part of this discussion...
I'm not looking for 1moa, but 2 moa at 100 seems like a lot for a gun that cost over a grand. I know that its semi and that AR's generally built to be target rifles and I don't expect it to. But 2 moa with match grade ammo would not be exceptable to me. Of course I mean that it would be tested with a quality scope off a rest. I don't expect that with irons off hand cause that wouldn't be fair cause I cant do that off hand. I guess that if a CHF barrel was a 1.5 moa gun out of the box it would stay that way longer than a stainless, but what kind of groups would a stainless barrel give? Am I looking at a 1.3moa? I just found a post on here where the differnce between CHF and stainless was around .25 improvement. That would not be worth is to me. The uppers I'm looking at are the BCM 16" BFH dd12" and the same thing in ss410.
I'm not looking for 1moa, but 2 moa at 100 seems like a lot for a gun that cost over a grand. I know that its semi and that AR's generally built to be target rifles and I don't expect it to. But 2 moa with match grade ammo would not be exceptable to me. Of course I mean that it would be tested with a quality scope off a rest. I don't expect that with irons off hand cause that wouldn't be fair cause I cant do that off hand. I guess that if a CHF barrel was a 1.5 moa gun out of the box it would stay that way longer than a stainless, but what kind of groups would a stainless barrel give? Am I looking at a 1.3moa? I just found a post on here where the differnce between CHF and stainless was around .25 improvement. That would not be worth is to me. The uppers I'm looking at are the BCM 16" BFH dd12" and the same thing in ss410.
I ran the math and you can get into a BCM for around $1054. That is NOT a lot of money to pay for what you get. Also remember that the Military says that 4MOA is acceptable a combat weapon.
From my experience, a lot of people do not shoot well enough or use quality ammo to ever take full advantage of their AR's capabilites. So if you did get a hammer forged barrel that shot 2MOA (which I doubt), it wouldn't be the end of the world.
The precision of the SS really depend on who made it. Some will be better than others.
To me, service life is WAY more important that a .25MOA difference. YMMV.
C4
When talking about accuracy several things need to be considered:
-Size of the target
-Type of ammo (match vs. ball)
-Distance
-Accuracy expectations
-Type of shooting you will be doing (ie. all prone shooting at static targets, running and gunning and shooting from unconventional positions, etc.)
There is a difference between "mechanical accuracy" and "practical accuracy". If a majority of your shooting is going to be done with 55grain standard (not match) ammo with an Aimpoint or an ACOG are you really going to be able to see that barrel "A" is capable of shooting .5" better groups than barrel "B"?
If you're shooting 6" steel plates at 400 yards with a 10x optic and match ammo, the difference in accuracy may mean a lot more to you.
Often times as shooters we don't keep our accuracy expectations in the context of our real shooting needs.
I wrote this in another thread a few weeks ago (chrome lined vs. stainless). You may find it useful:
Generally a stainless barrel will be more accurate than a Chrome-Moly-Vanadium (CMV) barrel. Not by a huge margin. One example of many, take a look at the info Molon posted in the link below. Compare the group sizes of the Noveske 16" stainless barrel (0.92" average) to the Noveske 16" N4 barrel (1.24" average): http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=467919 The difference is just slightly more than 1/3" (one third of an inch)
Generally a stainless barrel will have a slightly shorter service life. Don't take this comment to the extreme.
Generally a stainless barrel will a heavier countour and be slightly heavier than a CMV barrel.
Weight comparisions:
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons/icon-ar15-upper-receiver-weight.jpg
03designgroup | AR15 Upper Receiver Weight Comparisons http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/ar15-upper-receiver-weight-comparisons)
Many stainless barrels come in a 1/8" twist.
Both the 1/8" and 1/7" will shoot 52 grain - 77 grain .223 or 5.56 ammo well. 52 grain - 77 grain is what a majority of AR shooters shoot a majoirty of the time. I shoot local run and gun competition out to 425 yards on smaller than standard targets with both 1/8" and 1/7" barrels on a regular basis. Most of the time I use 55 grain Black Hills Blue Box, Feder American Eagle, Federal XM193, Winchest Q3131A, etc, and I don't have any issues if I do my part.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2475 (targets can be seen on page 3 .... you'll also see pics of me shooting a BCM SS410 stainless barreled upper (1/8") and a Noveske N4 mid-length (1/7") on the same page)
You can't go wrong with either, just depends on what features are most important to you and how you plan on using the barrel.
http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/which-carbine-is-more-accurate/icon-which-carbine-is-more-accurate.jpg
03designgroup | Which Carbine Is More Accurate http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/which-carbine-is-more-accurate)
Hope this helps
I agree with every thing you just said. I am looking for better than mil-spec accuracy tho. 2moa would be accepted. 4moa at 100yards would not. I am not in the military, and last time I checked Topeka was not a active war zone. I know a lot of people on here are active military, and they needs are differnt than mine. My needs go reliability, accuracy, barrel life. I don't care about corrosion resistance because I can and do clean and maintain my rifle. This rifle will be used 90% of the time on the range at steel plates and paper, so I want it to not hold ME back. It will go to a class or 2, and it will be my bang around rifle when I cut wood, camp and all that(not for people, but yotes, and other varmints). It wont be my bump in the night gun because I live in a appartment and honestly I would rather room clear with my 12gg like I was trained or my pistol.
Are you saying most CHF barrels will shoot better than 2 moa? cause if so thats what I will go with. every bodies imput is appreciated. I do plan to use it in a SHTF situation, but thinking more of floods and looting than Red Dawn(great movie).
I know BMC makes top line gear, thats why I chose them, mostly because I value the research you guys have put in, the money you have spent using and shooting your weapons, and the combined knowledge of the forum. This is a no BS forum and I like that. Thanks.
Stupid question... Why are AR barrels generally turned down under the hand guard? is this just to save weight? From the long range world that would be were I want the barrel biggest and turned down after the gas block. Is stiffness not really a problem here?
Going from a heavy F class rifle to a much lighter 16" carbine may be more difficult than you have considered from a practical standpoint (IMO). Lighter/shorter rifles may have the accuracy, but they are harder to shoot accurately (for me anyway).
And I'm sure you know that optics will play a major role in the shooters ability to shoot small groups as well. Holding sub 2 MOA at 300 Yds with a 1X red dot, or even 4X is not going to be practical for most people. Getting consistent hits on a 12" gong at 300 meters is pretty easy with 4X, however - even with a 16"1x7 CL barrel and 55 grain M193 (IMI M193 in a N4 not free floated barrel my case). Forget this same setup at 400M, however; the IMI-M193 is only good for about 300M.
One of the more accurate A/R barrels I have seen is on a friends 3-gun rifle - a stainless 18" White Oak SPR type barrel with a .223 Wylde chamber. It's a 1x8 twist, IIRC. Some NATO pressure ammo might not be safe in that chamber, however. Also, he replaces barrels every two or three years and he is not what you call a high volume shooter.
Heavier match grade ammo should get you what you need - even in a CL NATO chambered barrel, but I suggest you go longer and heavier than a light carbine.
I have been torn between a 18" and 16" barrel. I Do want a slightly heavier barrel, that was what drew me to the stainless steel barrels from BMC. I do know that lighter guns are harder to shoot, thats why I'm not asking for tiny groups. From what I gather most any quality barrel will be around 1.5moa. so it comes down to barrel life.
Target size-steel plates from 6" to 6"x18" out to 300 yards
ammo- match grade 55-77 grains
Sights- Irons to strart, then probley a low power variable
Probley a couple thousand rounds a year tops
Budget for complete rifle is around $1200 to maybe $1400
to say, "the differnce between CHF and stainless was around .25 improvement" isn't really correct as far as it goes because it doesn't take into account how the rest of the gun was built.
stainless steel barrels are not intrinsically more accurate than CM - match grade barrels were not always made of stainless. it's just that the more accurate (match grade) barrel makers generally use stainless for this application now. and while its true that the barrel is the single most important component to accuracy, a bad build can ruin the accuracy potential of even the best barrel.
one thing it should be mentioned is that it takes a LOT more to get a gun that is already shooting 1" down to 1/2", than it takes to get a gun that is shooting 2" down to 1 1/2".
and the number of rounds fired before you begin to notice a decrease in accuracy is going to be significantly lower in a 1" gun than a 2" gun. it's sort of like a good gun starts good and gets worse quickly, while a bad gun starts bad and stays there...
I'm not certain what some people mean when they quote "service life" of 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 rounds... is this the point where the barrel effectively won't shoot any more? due to extreme inaccuracy, increased headspace, or possibly gas port erosion, I don't know what, etc...?
I suspect any barrel will continue to pass little lead and copper pills down its bore long after anyone's expectation as long as there is no standard of performance.
5000 round service life would be great for me. i mean 5000 rounds accurately, inside of 2". I really don't think I would shoot 30000 rnds in a life time. I just don't have the kind of money or time to do that. I go to the range once a week most of the summer, twice if I'm lucky, and dry fire a lot in the winter. I am probley going to go with the CHF barreled upper from BCM. If i go stainless it will be with the 18" spr from them.
to say, "the differnce between CHF and stainless was around .25 improvement" isn't really correct as far as it goes because it doesn't take into account how the rest of the gun was built.
stainless steel barrels are not intrinsically more accurate than CM - match grade barrels were not always made of stainless. it's just that the more accurate (match grade) barrel makers generally use stainless for this application now. and while its true that the barrel is the single most important component to accuracy, a bad build can ruin the accuracy potential of even the best barrel.
one thing it should be mentioned is that it takes a LOT more to get a gun that is already shooting 1" down to 1/2", than it takes to get a gun that is shooting 2" down to 1 1/2".
and the number of rounds fired before you begin to notice a decrease in accuracy is going to be significantly lower in a 1" gun than a 2" gun. it's sort of like a good gun starts good and gets worse quickly, while a bad gun starts bad and stays there...
I'm not certain what some people mean when they quote "service life" of 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 rounds... is this the point where the barrel effectively won't shoot any more? due to extreme inaccuracy, increased headspace, or possibly gas port erosion, I don't know what, etc...?
I suspect any barrel will continue to pass little lead and copper pills down its bore long after anyone's expectation as long as there is no standard of performance.
Service life generally means that either the barrel no longer holds a group or the gas port has eroded to the point that it negatively affects the functionality of the weapon.
C4
So... how might a 17-4PH barrel compare to a CHF 4150 barrel? Looking at Lothar Walther's website, the 17-4PH barrels look comparable in price to other SS barrels, and about $70-$100 more than good hammer forged barrels like those from Centurion Arms and Bravo Company. I ask because 17-4PH is thought very highly of as far as barrels go and I'm curious if the benefits are worth the extra $70-$100 for a high-volume shooter (especially in a competition setting).
-B
I've been lurking on this site for a week or so now and recently signed up and wanted to say Hey!
This thread caught my eye because I'm looking for just about the same thing as MOA's wish list.
Man, lots and lots of good info...from what appears to be knowledgeable and dedicated shooter's with lots of real world info, thanks for sharing!
Building or buying a first AR can be somewhat intimidating with all the possible choices. Hate to spend hard earned bucks on something I don't want or need and would like to try and get it right...or mostly right the first time.
Well the uppers I'm looking at both cost the same. How many rounds can you expect out of a chrome lined hammer forged barrel? Someone recently posted something like 20000! Thats a ton of rounds. I get about 2500 out of my F-class rig, and most of the service rifle guys are around 3000 to 5000. Do BFH barrels hold point of impact when they get warm?
Pat Rogers has a standard chrome-line barreled BCM that has more than 29,000 hard use rounds through it! With info like that, I really don't see 90% of shooters ever getting close to the barrel life of most ARs, especially a hammer-forged barrel. Personally, I like hammer-forged barrels because the accuracy is very close to that of a SS barrel with even greater durability than a standard chrome-lined barrel. Even if I may never need that extra durability, it's nice to have.
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