"I can build a better rifle for less money!"

[rob_s]

I've seen this posted more than a few times, especially whenever the subject of the Colt 6920 comes up. Rather than hijack all these other threads, I thought I'd post seperately and see what exactly the guys who say this would build. Often there are posts relating to sight radius/gas system length and/or barrel profile, and those deviations are acceptable. In this case, however, I think certain criteria are non-negotiable:

F-marked FSB
M4 feedramps
MPI 4150 chrome-lined barrel
MPI Bolt

Staking can be done at home, so I'm not as concerned with that.

[Paulinski]

Wouldn't LMT (14.5 or 16") upper on a stag lower come close?

[Dano5326]

LMT 14.5 or 16" ... suggested $485

Sabre carbine or Midlength, I got some PKfirearms CMT upper/Sabre barrel for $399

Bravo Co.... fair price in the unlikely event in stock low $400s IIRC

There are numerous good bolt groups: LMT, CMT, FN

The beauty of the AR is modularity... I personally couldn't choke down Colt prices.

If I wasn't AR savy I'd get a LMT "defender" lower, $350 from numerous vendors, LMT bolt group & charging handle $150 and add any upper from above.. probably LMT 14.5" with a perm-afixed longer flashhider.

[M4Guru]

You can build a better rifle.

You can build a rifle for less.

You CANNOT build a better rifle for less.

[Dano5326]

SAW has 6920's for 1495.00

A complete LMT equivalent, at full list price(who pays this?), will go for $985:
Lower $350
Upper $485
B, BC, CH $150

BTW buying the upper & lower seperately saves 10% FET

The extra $500 can get you a nice optic

m4guru... can't agree with you on this one

[gotm4]

It depends on the definition of 'less'?

[rob_s]

It depends on the definition of 'less'?

what's yours?

[John_Wayne777]

I don't think that is too far off....

Somebody like Robb can most likely build me a very good upper or rifle from very good components at least in the same price range and probably coming in a bit under what you could buy a Colt for on the average gunstore shelf....

Frankly I would never want a rifle I built myself. I don't look down on the idea of someone building their own weapon, but I know that if I built it I would most likely be killed by the explosion the first time I shot it.

[c185]

I am trying to achieve exactly that with my first build, and living in Canada doesn't make it easy.

I managed to find a CMMG 14.5" SOCOM barrel (one of only a handful in the country), mated to a "Keyhole", T-Marked CMT upper with M4 feed ramps. Colt M4 double heat shield handguards and a Colt M4 sling mount. I also sourced a LMT M16 bolt carrier group and charging handle for the upper.

I have a Stag Arms lower that I plan on finishing with CMT lower parts kit and stock as soon as our dealer gets the parts imported.

I am hoping to get this done real soon as the weather is finally starting to warm up.

Cheers.

[gotm4]

what's yours?

I asked the question first. What's the definition of less? Less what?

[rob_s]

I asked the question first. What's the definition of less? Less what?

Let's not try to get all philosophical, I would think that it's obviously less money.

[gotm4]

I asked the question first. What's the definition of less? Less what?

Being in the gun business I get a lot of things cheaper than you do.

You mentioned these things.

F-marked FSB
M4 feedramps
MPI 4150 chrome-lined barrel
MPI Bolt

Playing Devils Advocate:

Totally understand wanting the F marked FSB.
Have you ever experienced a problem w/rifle feed ramps? I haven't ever had a failure to feed that wasn't attributed to a bad magazine or improperly adjusted or worn/broken mag catch.
Have you ever or do you ever shoot enough to even see the difference in a 4150 barrel vs. a non-4150? , I shoot a boat load and have never noticed a difference between 4140, 4150, non chrome-lining and stainless bbls other than the stainless & non chrome-lined bbls being more accurate generally. There are better barrels as in the HK416. The Noveske 17-4 is also an excellent barrel, but again I probably don't shoot well enough fast enough to ever see the difference. :)
How many AR bolts have you broken in your shooting history? I've broken 7 since 1975, 3 were MP tested Colt bolts in carbines. I've never had one fail in a 20" gun. All bolts break in AR direct impingment carbines with enough rounds through them. If you haven't broken one yet you need to shoot some more and report back. ;)

[docsprague]

Given the fact that I dont have the means to mate a barrel and a upper (I know it is not that hard) I buy LMT uppers. I have been getting a complete LMT upper for $537. For that price it is hard to put anything together, especially when you figure in the cost of a barrel wrench, vice block, and headspace guages (unless you build them frequently). Lowers dont matter much to me as long as they look decent. At this time my lowers are LMT or Global Tactical. Just my 2 cents.

[texasjim]

Hmmm lets see. You can go brand new or slightly used.

Colt M4 1/7 14.5 GI barrel, 199.00 from JT Distributing. note, they have limited supply, and I think I got a deal. Never Used!

Picked up some Colt M4 upper receivers for 165.00 each. Little to no use, looks new.

Gas Tube's 15.00ish

Charging Handles, 15.00ish

LMT Lower Receivers, 330.00 New

Colt and or LMT BCG, 120.00 New

845.00....can be done. Did three of em. Also, bought some used, but not abused, Knight RAS' for 200.00 each, and 300m BUIS for 100.00 each. I also added Bushmaster front swing swivel thingies that go under the front sight assembly for 35.00 each. This brings me up to 1180.00. This is grab it and go M4, as close to spec as you can get. As far as one can see....they look absolutely brand spanking new. Again I built three of them all the same.

One can also go LMT....my price for an complete M4 is far less expensive than a Colt, without BUIS or Hand guards/Rails.

Love my LMTs & Colts.

This is a great topic.....not to Hijack this one, but it would be interesting to know who has built the highest quality AR for the cheapest price. Not talking about freebie T&E stuff, I am talking about money was spent from FH to stock, new or used.

Jim

[cpekz]

CMT Lower, LPK, Upper, Misc. Upper Parts - Roughly $300
Magpul CTR - $150
LMT M16 BCG (add extractor upgrade) - $135
SDI 16" Mid-Length Crome-Lined Barrel - $320
Troy BUIS - $140

Total: Around $1045

I would much rather have this set up than a Colt where you pay a premium for a name. Not only is it roughly $455 cheaper than the 6920 but I bet I could make it just as/more reliable. Also a much better collapsible stock than the Colt. For around the same price of a 6920 you can add an Aimpoint ML3 in a LaRue mount to this setup.

[rob_s]

Playing Devils Advocate:

Totally understand wanting the F marked FSB.
Have you ever experienced a problem w/rifle feed ramps? I haven't ever had a failure to feed that wasn't attributed to a bad magazine or improperly adjusted or worn/broken mag catch.
Have you ever or do you ever shoot enough to even see the difference in a 4150 barrel vs. a non-4150? , I shoot a boat load and have never noticed a difference between 4140, 4150, non chrome-lining and stainless bbls other than the stainless & non chrome-lined bbls being more accurate generally. There are better barrels as in the HK416. The Noveske 17-4 is also an excellent barrel, but again I probably don't shoot well enough fast enough to ever see the difference. :)
How many AR bolts have you broken in your shooting history? I've broken 7 since 1975, 3 were MP tested Colt bolts in carbines. I've never had one fail in a 20" gun. All bolts break in AR direct impingment carbines with enough rounds through them. If you haven't broken one yet you need to shoot some more and report back. ;)
Playing devil's advocate, or just being argumentative?;)

Look, better is better. Whether or not you need better is a whole other debate, but those 4 things, plus quite a few others are contributors to the higher cost of a Colt vs. many of the other brands. What I see posted here and other places is "I can build a better rifle than the Colt for less money", so I'm curious to know what makes it better and how much it ultimately costs.

Like I said, better is better. If someone can show me how to have better for less money I'll take it every time.

So far the closest anyone has come to being equal quality for less money is the LMTs. I do believe that they are very, very close. I used to own one of their uppers, and besides a couple of issues I thought it was pretty good.

[gotm4]

Playing devil's advocate, or just being argumentative?



Devils Advocate, really.
I see what your saying. Some believe that if they assemble a *&* rifle kit and use the cheapest lower they can find that they somehow now have an AR of Colt quality and/or their AR is properly assembled. These people are dilusional.


Like I said, better is better. If someone can show me how to have better for less money I'll take it every time. So far the closest anyone has come to being equal quality for less money is the LMTs. I do believe that they are very, very close. I used to own one of their uppers, and besides a couple of issues I thought it was pretty good.



I've had good luck with LMT products. On my own LMTs I pull the barrel from the upper receiver and reassemble correctly. This is because LMT seems to not know what moly grease is nor what proper torque specs are for barrel installation.

LMTs are great barrels. I like them and have yet to wear one out. On the other hand I have a friend who works in Federal law enforcement and sees Colt barrels outlast LMT barrels quite a bit. Like I said I don't shoot well enough, fast enough and don't push my ARs hard enough to see the difference. If I want resale value I would use Colt or Noveske barrel. If I want barrels that stand up to my use I use RRA, CMT/Stag, LMT, Wilson & even DPMS barrels that I've reamed with a Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer. Better is subjective.

I can think of two other barrels that I would rather have (over Colt) if looking for a brand new 5.56mm NATO chambered chrome-lined barrel. These are BCM and Sabre Defence barrels.

[rob_s]

I've had good luck with LMT products. On my own LMTs I pull the barrel from the upper receiver and reassemble correctly. This is because LMT seems to not know what moly grease is nor what proper torque specs are for barrel installation.


Im glad to see thatsomeone else has had this same problem. I managed to break a GI barrel wrench on one upper and wound up having to freeze the damn thing to get the nut off. When I reassembled it I used a torque wrench and a little blob of moly grease so it was done "right".

[gotm4]

Im glad to see thatsomeone else has had this same problem. I managed to break a GI barrel wrench on one upper and wound up having to freeze the damn thing to get the nut off. When I reassembled it I used a torque wrench and a little blob of moly grease so it was done "right".

I've had them so tight that I had to cut the delta ring, weld spring with bolt cutters and use a large plumbers pipe/monkey wrench to remove the barrel nut. Required because of bent and broken teeth on the LMT barrel nut. Usually I can loosen them fine with a DPMS barrel wrench, the USGI wrench isn't stable enough for LMT barrel removal.

[Dano5326]

I once had over 1/2 of a new shipment of Colt m4a1's disfunctional due to improper assembly...

There was a time when Colt's QA/QC was so bad, the weps were going down so often, user confidence was nil, that at an Admirals Call (open forum with the man) a junior enlisted guy asked "what the fuck is going to be done about these POS m4's that don't work".... I think this couple of years gave the SCAR program it's impetus.

Given the choice, and that I have the tools, I'd rather just buy quality components and assemble them myself.

[Aubrey]

Interesting topic...

I suspect that "better" often means that personal "builds" better meet the assemblers idea of what they want/need. It likely does NOT mean that they have done side-by-side endurance testing of statistically-significant sample sizes to prove that their Frankenguns are more reliable/durable/accurate than Brand C.

If nothing else, Colt provides a benchmark standard that others can aspire to. Most will agree that an R0766, LE6921 or LE6920 will be fairly close to the M4A1, which would be the MIL-SPEC benchmark.

Regarding cost, before the expiration of the AWB, LE6920s cost close to half what they go for today. I believe that all of the pent-up demand versus the limited supply caused by Colt's GOV commitments has raised prices significantly. There did not used to be such a significant percentage difference in the price of different ARs IIRC.

Also, when building a la cart, "builders" need to be honest about all of the shipping costs, tools, and labor hours they invest in their "better-than" carbines. These total costs should be weighed against the NET cost of purchasing a complete Colt, from which there are carry handles, butt stocks, handguards, "Colt" magazines, side-sling swivels, and even a box that have significant value on the parts market. These parts which are often taken off and replaced with more-ergonomic or functional aftermarket versions are easily sold on the EE to those who want known quality for their KISS builds. "The sum of the parts is worth more than the whole."

Resale value is a whole other factor. Few of us are fortunate enough to wear out our carbines. How much will your heirs get for your Frankengun versus what they might get for a genuine Colt's?

If I am unfortunate enough to have to use a carbine in defense of my life or in defense of the life of a loved one, what might those little ol' ladies on the jury think of the errornet-forum-commemorative skull rollmark on my assault rifle that I assembled in my basement?

I have no doubt that there are those who have sufficient experience and skills to assemble a carbine that is functionally equivalent to a Colt, LMT, or Noveske for less money, but the guys that REALLY can and do it are typically not the ones bragging about it on the errornet.

ETA: One other factor that adds value to Colts versus others FOR ME is that I have access to factory-trained armorers and factory spare parts.

ETA#2: IMO, installing a BCM upper on a complete Stag or LMT lower and dropping in a known quality BCG/CH does not constitute a "build" or a Frankengun and may yield comparable reliability to Brand C for less $.

[C4IGrant]

I once had over 1/2 of a new shipment of Colt m4a1's disfunctional due to improper assembly...

There was a time when Colt's QA/QC was so bad, the weps were going down so often, user confidence was nil, that at an Admirals Call (open forum with the man) a junior enlisted guy asked "what the fuck is going to be done about these POS m4's that don't work".... I think this couple of years gave the SCAR program it's impetus.

Given the choice, and that I have the tools, I'd rather just buy quality components and assemble them myself.


You kind of hit the nail on the head. Would you rather have a guy that makes $10 bucks an hour (and doesn't give a rats ass) or someone like Steve (ADCO) Paul (BCM) or me build your weapon?? The answer seems simple to me.

The key to building a good AR is parts selection. So let's examine some things the make a Colt a Colt (as that is the benchmark).

Colt uses 4150 ORD or CMV barrel steel (per the TDP). Their barrels are also properly tested. They use 158 Carpenter steel for there bolts. They also heat treat and test them as well. They use M4 barrel extensions and m4 upper receivers. Their RE's are Mil-Spec and the castle nut is staked. They also use H or H2 buffers. They include a 20rd mag USGI mag (that they don't make) and a sling (no hard case). Fit/finish is not stellar, but that really isn't important IMHO.

So now, lets examine some manufacturers that build a similar weapon for less money. The top three that come to mind are:

BCM
LMT
SD

All of these companies 4150 ORD or CMV barrel steel. Barrels and bolts are properly treated and tested. They use M4 barrel extensions and M4 upper receivers. Of these three, non of them use H or H2 buffers and SD uses non Mil-Spec RE's. All three also use F marked FSB's. Fit/finish of the BCM and LMT is equal to and most times better than Colt. SD blows all othe manufacturers out of the water in this catagory IMHO. As I said though, I don't put much weight in this aspect.

There is no doubt that Colt's will hold their value better than then LMT, SD and BCM. The owners saved between $400-$700 in inital price though and if they do not plan on selling the weapon, this is more important than resale value.

If you want to build a weapon that is Colt like quality without Colt like pricing, you need to know where the big boys shop. Meaning, no manufacturer makes everything in house. So the key is to find out who these companies are and get your PO's in. If you can do this, you can build a VERY nice weapon for somewhere in the $700-$800 range. ;)




C4

[-H-]

My latest build for example:

CMMG 14.5 MOD4 A1 SOCOM Barrel $249.95
MI Carbine length Railed FF $163
CMT Upper Receiver $100
LMT FA Carrier Group $130

(Already had gas tube, PRI latched CH, and cut carry handle BUIS and Aimpoint. )

Lower Receiver $130
Small parts $35
CM single stage match trigger $175
Ergo Grip $10 *used*
Stock w/ Milspec Receiver Extension $79.95
H buffer upgrade $21.95

If someone is too stupid to figure out that they can get something better for as much or less money let them buy a Colt. I don't really care. When I say the money could be better spent this way or that, I am just offering friendly advice to another gun owner. I know a lot of you guys love Colt, but my faith is in something assembled by me, rather than stranger in a factory more interested in his next smoke break than the weapon he is building. YMMV

[Submariner]

One can save 11% off the top (federal excise tax) by purchasing a quality upper and lower separately. (Tax is due if you sell it.;) )

[-H-]

I once had over 1/2 of a new shipment of Colt m4a1's disfunctional due to improper assembly...

There was a time when Colt's QA/QC was so bad, the weps were going down so often, user confidence was nil, that at an Admirals Call (open forum with the man) a junior enlisted guy asked "what the fuck is going to be done about these POS m4's that don't work".... I think this couple of years gave the SCAR program it's impetus.



Funny you say that. I have a very knowledgeable friend who is 45B that has 19 years in that told me some of his experiences.

Once he was telling me that there were 2 "brand fuckin' new" M4's that were single shot weapons. He was curious to what could be wrong with the two which were just unpacked and had the grease cleaned off of them that day. The first one he opened up to check the carrier key and noticed right off that there was no gas tube. Easy fix.

So automatically he cracks the second one open to look for a gas tube, and confirms it is indeed present in this weapon. The carrier key is tight and properly staked so he decides to pull the gas tube out so he can pull the FSB off and inspect the gas port and FSB for any obstructions. When he pulls the hand guards off he sees that the gas tube is upside down. Easy fix.

When people praise Colt's QC and say that it's part of why the price is so high, I think of my good friend. I usually don't bring up these types of things because it turns into an all out flame fest, but since Dano brought it up and someone would have to be stupid to flame him, I can confirm what he said.:D

[rob_s]

Funny you say that. I have a very knowledgeable friend who is 45B that has 19 years in that told me some of his experiences.

Once he was telling me that there were 2 "brand fuckin' new" M4's that were single shot weapons. He was curious to what could be wrong with the two which were just unpacked and had the grease cleaned off of them that day. The first one he opened up to check the carrier key and noticed right off that there was no gas tube. Easy fix.

So automatically he cracks the second one open to look for a gas tube, and confirms it is indeed present in this weapon. The carrier key is tight and properly staked so he decides to pull the gas tube out so he can pull the FSB off and inspect the gas port and FSB for any obstructions. When he pulls the hand guards off he sees that the gas tube is upside down. Easy fix.

When people praise Colt's QC and say that it's part of why the price is so high, I think of my good friend. I usually don't bring up these types of things because it turns into an all out flame fest, but since Dano brought it up and someone would have to be stupid to flame him, I can confirm what he said.:D

So in 19 years he found 2? I'd say that's a pretty damn good track record. Since whole batches of BMs have been known to appear at various agencies and refuse to run, I'd say the Colt record is even better!;)

[C4IGrant]

Funny you say that. I have a very knowledgeable friend who is 45B that has 19 years in that told me some of his experiences.

Once he was telling me that there were 2 "brand fuckin' new" M4's that were single shot weapons. He was curious to what could be wrong with the two which were just unpacked and had the grease cleaned off of them that day. The first one he opened up to check the carrier key and noticed right off that there was no gas tube. Easy fix.

So automatically he cracks the second one open to look for a gas tube, and confirms it is indeed present in this weapon. The carrier key is tight and properly staked so he decides to pull the gas tube out so he can pull the FSB off and inspect the gas port and FSB for any obstructions. When he pulls the hand guards off he sees that the gas tube is upside down. Easy fix.

When people praise Colt's QC and say that it's part of why the price is so high, I think of my good friend. I usually don't bring up these types of things because it turns into an all out flame fest, but since Dano brought it up and someone would have to be stupid to flame him, I can confirm what he said.:D

No doubt that Colt puts out lemons (every company does). What you ALWAYS have to look at is the law of averages. If we took 100 Colts and 100 of a tier 3 AR manufacturer and ran them all the same, which ones do you think would be left standing at the end? My bet is always on the guns that use the best materials possible.

I will also point out that I do NOT drink the Colt kool aid (don't own a single Colt product).



C4

[Pat_Rogers]

When Bill Keyes first took over Colt, he invited me up for the day. He showed me and told me things that i never would have told Pat Rogers, including a cage containing many problamatic M4's (many, as in lots..)

Colt has many problems, most directly related to the previous owners selling thir souls to CT, Bridgeport and the unions. However, that is a done deal and will not likely change.

I have seen bad M4/M4A1's. However, when looking at percentages, it may not be that poor. (Having said that, i never want a non workable gun..)

Every manufacturer turns out good and bad guns.
I just see more poor guns (and in batches) from some makers then others.

Dean Caputo just received 3 Stag uppers with 5.56 marked barrels that actually had 223 chambers. No one is immune. No one.

[-H-]

So in 19 years he found 2? I'd say that's a pretty damn good track record. Since whole batches of BMs have been known to appear at various agencies and refuse to run, I'd say the Colt record is even better!;)

I had a feeling someone would read it that way. Victory for Colt! The guy's been doing this a long time. If you stick around as long as him you see everything break, and it does.

Those were the most recent examples, there are more. He told me their QC had gone off the deep end in the 90's and I asked, "Like what?" That was one of a few instances he told me about. He talked about the same thing Pat mentioned about the Union.

He is 15 - 18 years my senior I try not to ask repetitive questions as I find it annoying myself. He is very knowledgeable about these things I mostly keep my mouth shut and ask questions when appropriate.

I'm not bashing Colt, I feel that their product is not worth the price mark up. That said I personally wouldn't buy a factory AR15, from any manufacturer when I can build my own.

[jem375]

When Bill Keyes first took over Colt, he invited me up for the day. He showed me and told me things that i never would have told Pat Rogers, including a cage containing many problamatic M4's (many, as in lots..)

Colt has many problems, most directly related to the previous owners selling thir souls to CT, Bridgeport and the unions. However, that is a done deal and will not likely change.

I have seen bad M4/M4A1's. However, when looking at percentages, it may not be that poor. (Having said that, i never want a non workable gun..)

Every manufacturer turns out good and bad guns.
I just see more poor guns (and in batches) from some makers then others.

Dean Caputo just received 3 Stag uppers with 5.56 marked barrels that actually had 223 chambers. No one is immune. No one. finally a post that actually comes right out and tells it like it is.....thanks....

[jmart]

Dean Caputo just received 3 Stag uppers with 5.56 marked barrels that actually had 223 chambers. No one is immune. No one.

Pat,

How did Dean confirm this? Did he do a chamber cast? Or did he fire some 5.56 presure ammo, pop primers, and deduce the chamber was tight? Then follow up with Ned's throat reamer and everything A-OK?

[Tang419]

I dabble in the ole Colt-Hateraid. Just get so tired of hearing about them. Some people can ruin anything for you once you hear about it over and over. I picked my M&P15 up off the shelf, and it was parked right beside one of those holy grail guns. I could have gotten that NIB Colt a lot cheaper than one might think at a wholesale price, but I just couldn't make myself do it. I have noticed there seems to be a LOT of mark up on anything with a prancing pony on it.

Maybe I made a mistake going with the M&P, since IMO mine has some sort of gas troubles, but thats why it is with Robb right now. But since my M&P came in on a S&W showcase deal, for less than the cost of a High Standard, I dont think I did TOO bad.

I do think quality is a big deal, but sometimes value goes a long way. Between the S&W and the Colt, I had a lot of $$$ leftover, to do other things with. I dont think I'll ever melt my 4140 barrel down, and if I do, there are plenty of dealers here who can hook me up with a LMT 1/7 4150 barrel, and I'll still have less in it, than if I had gotten the Colt.

[rob_s]

Ultimately Colts have some added features that the big-name players don't. Some of those features contribute to reliability (MPI bolts, staked carrier keys, etc.) and some are a matter of personal use/taste ("F" FSB, 1:7 rifling, etc.). What is a statement of fact, however, is that of the "big 4 (ABC&R) only Colt offers all of these features, and you're going to pay for something that only one manufacturer produces.

To get back to my original question, I think that for way too many people "I can build a rifle as good as a Colt for less money" really means "I can build a rifle that looks like a Colt for less money". By and large it's the little things that the ignorant buyer/builder isn't likely to ever notice in a visual inspection that make the difference.

I have an image I like for times like these.:D
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/196/196030/folders/171062/1911346COLTSLAP.jpg

It's up to the shooter to decide if the added features are worth the added cost to him, but making outlandish statements based on hearsay ("Colt doesn't sell to civilians!) and otherwise not properly educating oneself on current-production Colts before making that purchase is just sad.

[Pat_Rogers]

Jmart- Dean received these to put a Larue rail on. He is personally suspect of anything that has "1/9 NATO" marked on it (as is Ned Christensen).

He eventually came to the realization that it was .223 (you'll need to speak to him directly for further) and used Ned's tool. Dean stated that "a lot of metal came out".

[-H-]

Rob, you set yourself up for what you wanted to hear. You made the guidelines as follows:

F-marked FSB
M4 feedramps
MPI 4150 chrome-lined barrel
MPI Bolt

Then state that all you can build is a look alike.

But in reality a better rifle doesn't have to have all these things. Colt is a stock rifle. For me a better rifle would start with a better barrel and a match trigger. Railed FF HG's and a better pistol grip come next. You can buy a Match Grade barrel with an M4 barrel extension. The difference in price between a Rifle Barrel Extension and an M4 Barrel Extension is $0. Same with the upper. Chrome lined barrels are not the end all be all of barrels but rather a standard.

F-marked FSB makes sense to me. As for an MPI bolt, I can understand serious users wanting a tested bolt and being willing to pay extra for one. But with enough hard use, MPI tested or not the fucker will break.

[Tang419]

He is a hard core ColtAid drinker. Preaching anything other than Colt to one of them, would be like people trying to tell David Koresh he wasn't God.

[rob_s]

He is a hard core ColtAid drinker. Preaching anything other than Colt to one of them, would be like people trying to tell David Koresh he wasn't God.

See, this is the kind of response i'm talking about.:rolleyes:

[C4IGrant]

Rob, you set yourself up for what you wanted to hear. You made the guidelines as follows:



Then state that all you can build is a look alike.

But in reality a better rifle doesn't have to have all these things. Colt is a stock rifle. For me a better rifle would start with a better barrel and a match trigger. Railed FF HG's and a better pistol grip come next. You can buy a Match Grade barrel with an M4 barrel extension. The difference in price between a Rifle Barrel Extension and an M4 Barrel Extension is $0. Same with the upper. Chrome lined barrels are not the end all be all of barrels but rather a standard.

F-marked FSB makes sense to me. As for an MPI bolt, I can understand serious users wanting a tested bolt and being willing to pay extra for one. But with enough hard use, MPI tested or not the fucker will break.


There are of course better barrels and triggers and rails and stocks, etc etc. I think what Rob was trying to find is if anyone made a weapon close to the 6920 or if the consumer could just buy the parts and build it something that was about the same.

The benchmark for how a combat weapon is supposed to be built is the TDP. Colt seems to follow it closer than any other manufacturer to date. The TDP is a good measuring stick to NOT go below and if you can go above it, then great!



C4

[Tang419]

See, this is the kind of response i'm talking about.:rolleyes:

LMAO...Truth hurts sometimes.


Besides, lighten up homie, I'm just muckin' with ya. :p










...but the truth still hurts :D

[rob_s]

Rob, you set yourself up for what you wanted to hear. You made the guidelines as follows:



Then state that all you can build is a look alike.

But in reality a better rifle doesn't have to have all these things. Colt is a stock rifle. For me a better rifle would start with a better barrel and a match trigger. Railed FF HG's and a better pistol grip come next. You can buy a Match Grade barrel with an M4 barrel extension. The difference in price between a Rifle Barrel Extension and an M4 Barrel Extension is $0. Same with the upper. Chrome lined barrels are not the end all be all of barrels but rather a standard.

F-marked FSB makes sense to me. As for an MPI bolt, I can understand serious users wanting a tested bolt and being willing to pay extra for one. But with enough hard use, MPI tested or not the fucker will break.

As I've said, better is better, different isn't better.

People have posted the examples of LMT or BCM as being very nearly equal to the quality and features of a Colt and I accept that just fine. I'm not stuck on Colt by any means, I just wanted people to qualify the sentence quoted in the thread title since quite a few people throw it around without ever being called on to back it up.

I think the most important part of your whole post above is "for me", and its a qualifier that changes the tone of this whole discussion. You've outlined what would make a "better" rifle for you (although I'd still like to see the math to see that it's "less money), and perhaps only you.

Maybe I just got lucky, maybe not, but I got my two Colt 6520s for $1k each, and paid $1.3k each for my two 6933s. All were bought within the last two years. These models come virtually perfect "for me" (I had to change one 6520 to a flattop upper) as they are 1:7, original barrel profile, and have M4 feedramps. "For me", I don't belied that I could have built a better gun for less, and even with my faith in Colt's ability to build a rifle the factory warranty is important to me.


But this thread isn't supposed to be about "for me" (unless that's the only way anyone can backup the statement in question), it's supposed to be about building the equivalent of the Colt 6920, repeating every detail other than receiver markings, for less money.

[rob_s]

There are of course better barrels and triggers and rails and stocks, etc etc. I think what Rob was trying to find is if anyone made a weapon close to the 6920 or if the consumer could just buy the parts and build it something that was about the same.


We were posting at the same time, and yes you have it exactly right.:D

[-H-]

I word it that way because I want it to be clear that I am voicing my opinion and not stating that anyone is wrong and that I am right.

Point is you can't take all of the features I listed and be cheaper than a Colt. But you can however exchange any one of those features and make it a better weapon than a stock Colt. Do you follow?

[shark31]

Food for thought:

Maybe the LMT guns are better than the Colt. What if I said that not parking under the FSB as LMT does provides a better gas seal. What if using strait pins instead of taper pins would make installation and removal that much easier.

Basically, maybe the TDP isn't "the best", it's just the TDP. I would certaintly rather run one of Grant's FN bolt carriers, but I don't think that the torx screws are part of the TDP, yet, IMO are better. The TDP calls for a standard A2 flash hider, but the phantom and the vortex are better. Etc., etc.

If you are asking if I can "build a rifle that follows the TDP better for less money", then I see your point.

[rob_s]

I would certaintly rather run one of Grant's FN bolt carriers, but I don't think that the torx screws are part of the TDP, yet, IMO are better. The TDP calls for a standard A2 flash hider, but the phantom and the vortex are better. Etc., etc.

What do those parts cost in comparison to the comparable Colt part?

[c185]

What do those parts cost in comparison to the comparable Colt part?

Here in sunny Canada, less than Colt parts.

[C4IGrant]

Food for thought:

Maybe the LMT guns are better than the Colt. What if I said that not parking under the FSB as LMT does provides a better gas seal. What if using strait pins instead of taper pins would make installation and removal that much easier.

Basically, maybe the TDP isn't "the best", it's just the TDP. I would certaintly rather run one of Grant's FN bolt carriers, but I don't think that the torx screws are part of the TDP, yet, IMO are better. The TDP calls for a standard A2 flash hider, but the phantom and the vortex are better. Etc., etc.

If you are asking if I can "build a rifle that follows the TDP better for less money", then I see your point.

I think the lack of phos. under the FSB does make a better gas seal and I do like straight pins VS tapered ones (just had some taper pins kick my ass). :mad:

There are better ways to do things, but you have to know what they are and why. The TDP is just a basic standard that a lot of manufacturers cannot come close too (which is sad).


C4

[Paulinski]

Why does every thread comparing colt to other manufacturers turns into slugfest?

[C4IGrant]

Why does every thread comparing colt to other manufacturers turns into slugfest?

This one is actually very civil and everyone is remaining polite while discussing their differences of opinion.




C4

[gotm4]

Maybe I made a mistake going with the M&P, since IMO mine has some sort of gas troubles, but thats why it is with Robb right now.


You rang! ;)

I got to look at and work on your S&W M&P15 upper for a short time yesterday but didn't have enough time to do everything. I'll finish it tomorrow to check and do some other things and call you with a total and send it back to you.

My findings so far:

1.) The gas key was leaking. It wasn't loose by feel but upon removal I did find oil between it and the carrier with evidence of carbon tracking (from gas leaking around the front of the key). I installed a new carrier key and screws.

2.) I removed the barrel from the upper receiver and found that the barrel nut was on with about 10ft lbs of torque and not aligned well at all. The barrel was so loose that it allowed the barrel to turn laterally in the upper receiver with moderate force and the gas tube was canted inside the upper receiver. I reinstalled the barrel which required roughly 60ft lbs to get good barrel nut/gas tube/receiver alignment.

3.) The chamber wasn't a true 5.56mm (I'm always suspect of this of all barrels except for Colt). I remedied this using w/Ned's 5.56mm neck and throat reamer.

Conclusion:
I don't think the S&W (CMT/Stag) is made using 'cheap' parts. IMO this S&W was just poorly assembled from the factory.

[S-1]

SAW has 6920's for 1495.00

A complete LMT equivalent, at full list price(who pays this?), will go for $985:
Lower $350
Upper $485
B, BC, CH $150

BTW buying the upper & lower seperately saves 10% FET

The extra $500 can get you a nice optic


I'm tracking with Dano. You are paying a premium for the Colt name. Personally, I will not pay for the name when there are companies putting out products that are of the same quality and standards. The LMT's are pretty much the same exact gun as what Colt offers in their LE/Mil line, minus the FSB pins (WGAF!!) and no park under the FSB (none issue).

That being said, Colt makes a great rifle, as does LMT. I have an armory full of Colts that are available for me to use and have done so on several occasions. Although, I choose to use and purchase my own LMT's as the Colts aren't maintained and configured to my liking and do not feel that I’m at a disadvantage because I don’t have a prancing pony on the side.

[C4IGrant]

You rang! ;)

I got to look at and work on your S&W M&P15 upper for a short time yesterday but didn't have enough time to do everything. I'll finish it tomorrow to check and do some other things and call you with a total and send it back to you.

My findings so far:

1.) The gas key was leaking. It wasn't loose by feel but upon removal I did find oil between it and the carrier with evidence of carbon tracking (from gas leaking around the front of the key). I installed a new carrier key and screws.

2.) I removed the barrel from the upper receiver and found that the barrel nut was on with about 10ft lbs of torque and not aligned well at all. The barrel was so loose that it allowed the barrel to turn laterally in the upper receiver with moderate force and the gas tube was canted inside the upper receiver. I reinstalled the barrel which required roughly 60ft lbs to get good barrel nut/gas tube/receiver alignment.

3.) The chamber wasn't a true 5.56mm (I'm always suspect of this of all barrels except for Colt). I remedied this using w/Ned's 5.56mm neck and throat reamer.

Conclusion:
I don't think the S&W (CMT/Stag) is made using 'cheap' parts. IMO this S&W was just poorly assembled from the factory.

You make an interesting point about the barrel being 223. Pat stated that some Stag barrels were chambered in 223 as well. Since Stag builds the basic S&W, I see the connection.



C4

[Lumpy196]

Given that I can BUILD exactly what I want for a reasonable price, and some of the factory guns Ive seen lately (even from the pony farm), I'll keep rolling my own "franken-guns" with the best stuff I can get.

[R. James]

.....

[jmart]

You rang! ;)

3.) The chamber wasn't a true 5.56mm (I'm always suspect of this of all barrels except for Colt). I remedied this using w/Ned's 5.56mm neck and throat reamer.



How do you verify this?

[Dport]

How do you verify this?

Excellent question.


FWIW, I don't care if something is better or worse than Colt. Seems pointless. If the gun is what I want (yes it sounds shallow but let's face it the gun will see far more range time than it will combat) and what I perceive as needed to make it a functional defensive weapon, I could care less about what outside benchmark it measures up to.

[gotm4]

How do you verify this?

Excellent question.

Because the Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer removed metal. Neck and Throat means exactly that, it only cuts the neck and throat to equal a 5.56mm NATO chamber (which is a little bigger). Which in my 37 years on this planet and understanding a little bit about physics indicates that the chamber with which I used this reamer had to be smaller than 5.56mm NATO. ;) But then again, monkeys could fly out of my butt.

[Dport]

Because the Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer removed metal. Neck and Throat means exactly that, it only cuts the neck and throat to equal a 5.56mm NATO chamber (which is bigger). Which in my 37 years on this planet and understanding a little bit about physics indicates that the chamber with which I used this reamer had to be smaller than 5.56mm NATO. ;) But then again, monkeys could fly out of my butt.

I think he was asking, in effect, if there was some sort of gauge that can measure such things. Sort of like a go/no-go gauge.

[jmart]

Because the Ned Christiansen 5.56mm NATO neck and throat reamer removed metal. Neck and Throat means exactly that, it only cuts the neck and throat to equal a 5.56mm NATO chamber (which is bigger). Which in my 37 years on this planet and understanding a little bit about physics indicates that the chamber with which I used this reamer had to be smaller than 5.56mm NATO. ;) But then again, monkeys could fly out of my butt.


Thank you for that most lucid explanation! If the monkeys do fly, please post pics.;)

Really, I knew of this device, I was just wondering if there were some other gauge that you used in lieu of this. HS gauges don't measure neck/leade dimensions, at least none I'm aware of. They typical scenario I hear about is "I was popping primers like Orville Redenbacher so I ran Ned's throater/reamer in there and cleaned it up".

Just curious, is it your standard practice to run this reamer through every barrel that crosses your path or do you shoot it first and try to determine if there's a problem?

[gotm4]

There's no gauge that I'm aware of to check the difference of a .223Rem chamber vs. a 5.56mm NATO chamber. Running Neds 5.56mm neck and throat reamer in a real 5.56mm NATO chamber isn't harmful and nothing bad will happen. It won't 'cut more/cut too much'. It stops when it's done and doesn't effect headspace.

Popping primers is a damn good indicator of overpressure if you haven't looked at your spent brass. This was why this reamer was developed.

Here's the description of it from Neds website:
Neck and Throat 5.56 Reamer - A common problem when firing 5.56 mil-spec ammo in an AR15 with a SAAMI-spec .223 chamber, is that once in a while a spent primer will fall out of a case as it is extracted. Sometimes the primers fall clear and there's no problem, other times they will go under the trigger and get wedged, rendering the rifle inoperable. We've seen some extreme cases of this where the hammer and trigger were actually hard to get out. We've seen them get wedged between the charging handle and the inside of the receiver, with the bolt out of battery, so that the gun had to have the stock removed so the bolt could be removed to clear the primer. We have seen the primer anvil get stuck on the tubular portion of the carrier key! Popped primers are due in part to the tighter freebore and shorter, more abrupt lead or throat of the .223 chamber, causing a pressure spike with the hotter, mil- spec ammo. This reamer will address these areas as well as making sure the neck diameter is not too tight or short, without changing headspace. It does not cut the shoulder or anything behind it, it stops off on the shoulder. Of course, whatever rifle you're shooting, you could just look at what's stamped on the barrel-- it might say .223, or it might say 5.56, or it might say nothing. You could call the manufacturer and ask them what chamber you have, but even if you get to talk to somebody who understands the question, they likely don't really know. They may tell you what you want to hear, but truth is, not many AR15 manufacturers make their own barrels. They buy them from someone else, so they don't really, truly know what chamber you have. Some of them will flat decline to discuss it with you.

This reamer is designed as an easy, quick and sure way to know. It is provided with an extension T-handle that has a Nylon bushing on it, so you can just open the upper receiver, remove the bolt group, drop it in with some oil, and slowly turn it in (clockwise only, never reversing it), using a lot of turns and very little pressure. The Nylon bushing centers the extension in the upper receiver. When it bottoms out on the shoulder it will spin freely-- it has stopped cutting and you are done. When you have done this, you know for sure you have chamber with proper 5.56 dimensions in the critical freebore and throat area. Primer popping due to pressure spikes in a short leade will cease, but be advised there can be other factors in popped primers such as hot ammo, hot chambers, and improperly loaded ammo.

What about chromed chambers? The good news is that in our experience, Colt AR15 chrome-lined barrels have a proper 5.56 chamber. I would consider any others to be suspect. The reamer has been subjected to a secondary heat-treating process, titanium carbo- nitride, which makes it capable of correcting under-spec chromed chambers. Obviously it will do fewer of them, and I can't say what the numbers would be as I have not had to ream that many chromed ones yet. Will removing the chrome be a problem? No. Plenty of AR's don't have chromed bores and chamber and they work fine. I've sectioned some chromed barrels and the chrome doesn't last long in the throat area anyway. Removing chrome in the chamber won't cause the area to peel like bumper chrome.

[Tang419]

You rang! ;)

I got to look at and work on your S&W M&P15 upper for a short time yesterday but didn't have enough time to do everything. I'll finish it tomorrow to check and do some other things and call you with a total and send it back to you.

My findings so far:

1.) The gas key was leaking. It wasn't loose by feel but upon removal I did find oil between it and the carrier with evidence of carbon tracking (from gas leaking around the front of the key). I installed a new carrier key and screws.

2.) I removed the barrel from the upper receiver and found that the barrel nut was on with about 10ft lbs of torque and not aligned well at all. The barrel was so loose that it allowed the barrel to turn laterally in the upper receiver with moderate force and the gas tube was canted inside the upper receiver. I reinstalled the barrel which required roughly 60ft lbs to get good barrel nut/gas tube/receiver alignment.

3.) The chamber wasn't a true 5.56mm (I'm always suspect of this of all barrels except for Colt). I remedied this using w/Ned's 5.56mm neck and throat reamer.

Conclusion:
I don't think the S&W (CMT/Stag) is made using 'cheap' parts. IMO this S&W was just poorly assembled from the factory.

Thanks Robb, sounds good. Just give me a call and let me know what the damage is. Atleast now I know, I just wasn't being paranoid, it did have some issues.

I sure hope the "double staking" (S&W's words to me) on the carrier key wasnt too hard for you to get by.

[comp1911]

Given that I can BUILD exactly what I want for a reasonable price, and some of the factory guns Ive seen lately (even from the pony farm), I'll keep rolling my own "franken-guns" with the best stuff I can get.

Werd!

:D

[gotm4]

I sure hope the "double staking" (S&W's words to me) on the carrier key wasnt too hard for you to get by.

I took about 1min. Factory staking on CMT/Stag/S&W carriers sucks.

[C4IGrant]

I took about 1min. Factory staking on CMT/Stag/S&W carriers sucks.

The staking on the T&A models is very good (as they switched to LMT BCG's). :D

Talking with my LE S&W Rep, they advised that they are fully aware of the carrier key staking issues and they will be fixed.


C4

[rob_s]

So to get back to the topic at hand....

It sounds like most of the people that make the statement in the thread title generally need to qualify what they mean in order for it to be true.

[jmart]

So to get back to the topic at hand....

It sounds like most of the people that make the statement in the thread title generally need to qualify what they mean in order for it to be true.

Rob,

I've been following this thread for 4 pages and I'm still not sure what you're asking. For example, it seems like you've convinced yourself there's no way SDI or BCM barrel could equal a Colt barrel, so it's impossible to build something better if Colt is, by your accounting, "the best". The only way to meet your criteria is to sneak into Colt's mfg plant, grab their parts, sneak out and assemble it in the privacy of your own home. Or source genuine Colt parts from some retailer who sells them below the price that Colt charges for their assembled weapon. I'm just not getting at what your driving at.

[rob_s]

Rob,

I've been following this thread for 4 pages and I'm still not sure what you're asking. For example, it seems like you've convinced yourself there's no way SDI or BCM barrel could equal a Colt barrel, so it's impossible to build something better if Colt is, by your accounting, "the best". The only way to meet your criteria is to sneak into Colt's mfg plant, grab their parts, sneak out and assemble it in the privacy of your own home. Or source genuine Colt parts from some retailer who sells them below the price that Colt charges for their assembled weapon. I'm just not getting at what your driving at.

I'm not driving at anything, I was just asking people to qualify the statements they have made in the past.

I have conceded that it appears that BCM and LMT are of very nearly equal quality. What more do you want me to do?

The point of the thread was really to find out if, let's say I was in the market for a 6920, I could get the exact same (like LMT or BCM) for less money, or if I could only get a lookalike (like Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, S&W, etc.).

I'm glad to know that the majority opinion appears to be that LMT and BCM are as close to Colt as you're going to get, and that (although BCM is currenlty unavailable and only does uppers) a complete rifle is possible simply by mating a lower, upper, and BCG for under $1k. From TOS I found:
$330 - LMT Defender Lower Receiver with M4 6 position collapsible stock, Ergo Grip, Single Stage LMT Trigger and Standard Safety
$485 - Lewis Machine and Tool 16" M4 Uppers incl. "M4 type" handguards and charging handle
$130.00 - CMT M16 BC Group

$945 - Total

I said from the beginning that I don't mind staking the receiver extension nut and the gas key so evidently for $945 plus 15 minutes of my time, according to what I'm reading here, I can have a 6920 without the "prancing pony".



It still appears, however, that the majority of the people who are building "frankenguns" for less money are doing so with inferior parts, knowingly in many cases, and accept that they are doing so. It's their gun and their money, so it's no matter to me.

[Paulinski]

I'm not driving at anything, I was just asking people to qualify the statements they have made in the past.

I have conceded that it appears that BCM and LMT are of very nearly equal quality. What more do you want me to do?

The point of the thread was really to find out if, let's say I was in the market for a 6920, I could get the exact same (like LMT or BCM) for less money, or if I could only get a lookalike (like Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, S&W, etc.).

I'm glad to know that the majority opinion appears to be that LMT and BCM are as close to Colt as you're going to get, and that (although BCM is currenlty unavailable and only does uppers) a complete rifle is possible simply by mating a lower, upper, and BCG for under $1k. From TOS I found:
$330 - LMT Defender Lower Receiver with M4 6 position collapsible stock, Ergo Grip, Single Stage LMT Trigger and Standard Safety
$485 - Lewis Machine and Tool 16" M4 Uppers incl. "M4 type" handguards and charging handle
$130.00 - CMT M16 BC Group

$945 - Total

I said from the beginning that I don't mind staking the receiver extension nut and the gas key so evidently for $945 plus 15 minutes of my time, according to what I'm reading here, I can have a 6920 without the "prancing pony".



It still appears, however, that the majority of the people who are building "frankenguns" for less money are doing so with inferior parts, knowingly in many cases, and accept that they are doing so. It's their gun and their money, so it's no matter to me.

All valid points Rob. While here north of the border 6920's are as common as hens teeth, and command a premium price - typically $300-$500 or more over retail if you can locate one.
While LMT is commonly available so it was a logical move for me to purchase 14'5" or 16" complete upper and mate it to Stag lower which is also readily available. To me this is the same quality as Colt as lower price but what is more important available to order any time.

In the meantime I have been hoarding Colt components especially the barrels :D

Paul

[tinman44]

oh please someone tell me where to get a colt le 6920 now, i'm on two waiting lists i'm pretty sure my order wont be filled until christmas.

[Skintop911]

Threads like these are what distinguish "brand-wars" from intelligent discussion of differences, and websites from each other.

[R Moran]

Rob,
Perhaps comparable is the word we are looking for? As better is obviously subjective.

Does 4150 and carpenter steel cost more? Does the way Colt assembles a weapon cost more? Apparently the unions aren't helping. Does the limited availability drive up the cost?

For the self assemblers, god bless ya, I can't do it. But, take into account the cost of labor, and other overhead that you don't have. Not just the cost of parts. Some people seem to forget this. And, perhaps we shouldn't assume every blue collar worker is a dullard, waiting for quiting time. While you don't trust them to assemble your weapon, you trust them to manufacture the parts.

As Pat has stated Colt is cranking out M4's and M16's at a high rate, that apparently leaves little for the LE line, thus the limited availability, but, considering the number, and the relatively low count of poor weapons, maybe there QC isn't that bad. MAYBE.

Ever notice the "fit and finish" of M1's deliverd during WW2, and you couldn't even buy one from Winchester at the time.

On some other site I am labeled a "gun snob" and Colt Aid drinker, of course there sole measure of better is usually price and fit and finish ( and post count). I freely admit, there is better, and comparable to Colt for less, and will look into them, when the time comes. But bashing Colt, when just about everyone admits, if grudingly, that they are a good to excellent weapon, seems like just plain hatein". As I pointed out on that forum, almost all the complaints about Colt center around politics and 'too much money for what you get", rarely do you see, they don't run.

Someone there has a sig line that reads " Gun snobs, purposely blind themselves." I think its just the opposite.

Bob

[C4IGrant]

Rob,
Perhaps comparable is the word we are looking for? As better is obviously subjective.

Does 4150 and carpenter steel cost more? Does the way Colt assembles a weapon cost more? Apparently the unions aren't helping. Does the limited availability drive up the cost?

For the self assemblers, god bless ya, I can't do it. But, take into account the cost of labor, and other overhead that you don't have. Not just the cost of parts. Some people seem to forget this. And, perhaps we shouldn't assume every blue collar worker is a dullard, waiting for quiting time. While you don't trust them to assemble your weapon, you trust them to manufacture the parts.

As Pat has stated Colt is cranking out M4's and M16's at a high rate, that apparently leaves little for the LE line, thus the limited availability, but, considering the number, and the relatively low count of poor weapons, maybe there QC isn't that bad. MAYBE.

Ever notice the "fit and finish" of M1's deliverd during WW2, and you couldn't even buy one from Winchester at the time.

On some other site I am labeled a "gun snob" and Colt Aid drinker, of course there sole measure of better is usually price and fit and finish ( and post count). I freely admit, there is better, and comparable to Colt for less, and will look into them, when the time comes. But bashing Colt, when just about everyone admits, if grudingly, that they are a good to excellent weapon, seems like just plain hatein". As I pointed out on that forum, almost all the complaints about Colt center around politics and 'too much money for what you get", rarely do you see, they don't run.

Someone there has a sig line that reads " Gun snobs, purposely blind themselves." I think its just the opposite.

Bob

Fit/Finish is king to a good number of AR shooters. If it looks pretty on the outside and under $800 bucks, then it is the most perfect AR ever built.
I would love to have these types of people take a class where the first thing the instructor does is have them throw their weapon in the gravel. :D




C4

[Heavy Metal]

I would love to have these types of people take a class where the first thing the instructor does is have them throw their weapon in the gravel.


Who was that?:D

[.45fmjoe]

Eh, I'm a noob here but not to the AR-15 platform. I've been a team member of the other AR website for years but the technical discussion is the same fucking idiots asking the same stupid questions every week. I have lurked here for a while, I think I might like it here better. Here is my take on subject. Colt builds closest to the TDP than any other manufacturer. I use their quality as a benchmark in my own personal builds. I don't purchase factory Colt because of the price and the non-standard pin sizes. Here is my last build:

Lower receiver ($105) - I think we can agree that for the most part, a lower receiver is a lower receiver. This is of course, within reason. I like Anvil Arms, out of Lakeland, FL. They come to the Tampa gun shows and I can buy stripped lowers for $100. Their lowers are made by LAR. My advantage over Colt is standard size pin holes and the lower "shelf" which would allow use of a registered drop in auto sear, if I had one.

Lower parts kit ($55) - Again I went with Anvil as I used one of their LPKs to build my dad an M16A1 clone with a DRMOd complete upper and bolt group and it had a very nice, light trigger with zero creep. I believe their LPKs are made by DPMS. I've read sometimes DPMS parts kits can have out of spec roll pins but mine fit perfectly and if I have a problem, I can have it taken care of locally by Anvil.

Stock and receiver extension ($149) - I went with a Magpul CTR as I think it is the best collapsible stock on the market right now. I like solid lock- up and the CTR gives it to me. I have a CMT mil-spec extension. I still need to purchase an H buffer (though I'm thinking of a 9mm buffer, I have heard they are nice) which will add a little bit to the cost. I could have saved a little bit of money had I gone with a regular mil-spec M4 stock.

Upper receiver ($99) - CMT. Has T-numbers on top, M4 cuts machined before anodizing. The receiver is fine but admittedly it does have slightly lateral movement on every lower I have tried. My best friend also ordered one and his fits nice and snug. While this is basically a cosmetic issue, it annoys the piss out of me and I'm probably going to swap it for a SD upper from Grant.

Charging handle ($17) - CMT. As long as your CH isn't an extruded pos, no big deal.

Barrel ($329) - Probably one of the biggest differences in manufacturers. I went with CMMG. It is proper 4150 CV steel, has M4 extension, parkerizing under the F marked FSB, chrome lined, 1/7 twist and has a 5.56 chamber. Barrel came with barrel nut, sling swivel, Delta ring assembly and gas tube and pinned Phantom flash suppressor.

Hand guards ($40) - New Colt double heat shield take-off.

Bolt carrier group ($124) - CMT, again. MPI tested/marked bolt. I staked the key myself, it took all of 2 minutes. I installed a BCM bolt upgrade kit for $5. I will say that I have read that CMT only MPI tests in batches so a Colt bolt might actually be of higher quality here.

I had a carry handle sitting around in the safe. Total cost, $918. Subtract about $70 or so for the difference in the Magpul stock/extension and add the cost of carry handle, side sling attachment, sling, H buffer and couple of magazines and we can call it somewhere around $1000, agreed? The total time involved is less than an hour, and I enjoyed doing it anyway. I guess you could say the armorers tools should count, but I have built a few rifles for myself and friends so I really don't count those in a per rifle cost.

There you have it, I have backed it up. I also trust my QC more than someone in a factory. I inspected each part when I received it and I'm confident in my abilities to fully assemble the weapon. It runs flawlessly and is of comparable quality to the Colt for less money and I get standard FCG pin sizes. :)

After it was built and I saved some coin I went apeshit and ordered a Magpul MIAD grip (I hate finger grooves and A1 grips are a tad small for me), Magpul enhanced trigger guard (no more torn up finger from the gap), EOTech with LaRue mount and Troy folding back up sight, Yankee Hill 2pc railed hand guards so I can mount a light and I'm saving up for the Surefire. But, since this was a "can you build a comparable factory rifle for less" thread, let's leave that stuff out.

[RWBlue]

Fit/Finish is king to a good number of AR shooters. If it looks pretty on the outside and under $800 bucks, then it is the most perfect AR ever built.
I would love to have these types of people take a class where the first thing the instructor does is have them throw their weapon in the gravel. :D

C4

I wonder how many people would show up for the class the next time.

Maybe you should make it mud for the training you have planned for June.

But then again, if everyone knew they were going to toss their gun in the mud, how many would bring an AK. :D

[tinman44]

the technical discussion is the same fucking idiots asking the same stupid questions every week.

I don't even know how to address that, but I will say people that asks questions don't know(me), just because you've heard it before doesn't mean its stupid. this is a bad attitude to start your posting off with I think. Oh and I'm new to this forum and the ar15 rifle.

[rob_s]

I don't even know how to address that, but I will say people that asks questions don't know(me), just because you've heard it before doesn't mean its stupid. this is a bad attitude to start your posting off with I think. Oh and I'm new to this forum and the ar15 rifle.

Don't worrry about it. It's a phase in everyone's development; especially on the interweb. You start out being a newbie, then you get to be all "hollier than thou" towards the newbies (forgetting that you were one just a few minutes ago), and eventually you just get tired of the whole damn thing.

[Resq47]

Sort of like the AR progression:

Stage 1 - Dissipators are cool! But I'll save money and build a Tier 3 kit. What's Tier 3 mean?

Stage 2 - My T3 gun doesn't work. What do I need to do to fix it?

Stage 3 - Ok, my new upper I built from known parts is nice but I catch flak because it's a homebuild.

Stage 4 - Order 'boutique' upper, tweak to accomodate lessons learned.

Stage 5 - Who has a Colt 6920 or LMT in stock?

[.45fmjoe]

Don't worrry about it. It's a phase in everyone's development; especially on the interweb. You start out being a newbie, then you get to be all "hollier than thou" towards the newbies (forgetting that you were one just a few minutes ago), and eventually you just get tired of the whole damn thing.

No, the problem is when there are 10 active topics in a week on the same issue, such as m16 carrier legality, M4 feedramps, etc. and instead of doing a search, they make another post. Then the other problem is "technical discussion" has become a pissing match of brand x vs. brand y with a majority of people who, no matter what is explained, think their $900 Rock River is absolutely every bit of rifle as the $1300 Colt.

ETA - When just about none of the vendors, industry professionals or experts like Pat Rogers for example, will post in technical discussions, it says something. There are some really great guys there but I was looking around at some of the other forums on here and the amount of real technical information is much higher. I probably shouldn't that so harshly before, I still like the team forum and retro forum over there.

[rob_s]

No, the problem is when there are 10 active topics in a week on the same issue, such as m16 carrier legality, M4 feedramps, etc. and instead of doing a search, they make another post. Then the other problem is "technical discussion" has become a pissing match of brand x vs. brand y with a majority of people who, no matter what is explained, think their $900 Rock River is absolutely every bit of rifle as the $1300 Colt.
You must be new to the internet. It happens on every enthusiast site with a forum. You either ignore it or move on; bitching isn't going to change anything. Smart-ass replies to people just trying to learn doesn't help anything either.

ETA - When just about none of the vendors, industry professionals or experts like Pat Rogers for example, will post in technical discussions, it says something. There are some really great guys there but I was looking around at some of the other forums on here and the amount of real technical information is much higher. I probably shouldn't that so harshly before, I still like the team forum and retro forum over there.
I'm not defending TOS by any means. I was just scanning a "Taurus bought Colt" thread last night that reminded me of why I don't mind being banned from there.

Back on the topic of the thread, and tieing into this issue, the best thing about TOS is that there is alot of information available for those that want to build their own rifles and tinker. I built my old "frankengun" all from information and instructions I got from there. It wasn't "just as good for less money" but it worked ok, appears to be working fine for the guy I sold it to, and it taught me alot about how the guns go together and function.

I really think that everyone should build one rifle from a stripped lower. I'm still not convinced that I'd depend on that rifle, but you could build a plinker, a dedicated .22, or something for a kid to learn on where reliabity wasn't as important, and you'd learn alot about the rifle that you do depend on.

[Submariner]

Sort of like the AR progression:

Stage 1 - Dissipators are cool! But I'll save money and build a Tier 3 kit. What's Tier 3 mean?

Stage 2 - My T3 gun doesn't work. What do I need to do to fix it?

Stage 3 - Ok, my new upper I built from known parts is nice but I catch flak because it's a homebuild.

Stage 4 - Order 'boutique' upper, tweak to accomodate lessons learned.

Stage 5 - Who has a Colt 6920 or LMT in stock?

Stage 1 - Build a Frankencolt, all Colt parts. Works pretty good.;)

Added: Then take Dean Caputo's Operator Diagnostics class and learn you did a good thing. And why.

[.45fmjoe]

You must be new to the internet. It happens on every enthusiast site with a forum. You either ignore it or move on; bitching isn't going to change anything. Smart-ass replies to people just trying to learn doesn't help anything either.

I'm not defending TOS by any means. I was just scanning a "Taurus bought Colt" thread last night that reminded me of why I don't mind being banned from there.

Back on the topic of the thread, and tieing into this issue, the best thing about TOS is that there is alot of information available for those that want to build their own rifles and tinker. I built my old "frankengun" all from information and instructions I got from there. It wasn't "just as good for less money" but it worked ok, appears to be working fine for the guy I sold it to, and it taught me alot about how the guns go together and function.

I really think that everyone should build one rifle from a stripped lower. I'm still not convinced that I'd depend on that rifle, but you could build a plinker, a dedicated .22, or something for a kid to learn on where reliabity wasn't as important, and you'd learn alot about the rifle that you do depend on.

I just have to disagree. As long as you are purchasing top shelf parts, there is nothing magical about anyone's factory that would allow them to produce a superior product. You say you wouldn't trust a rifle you built, but you would trust a rifle some union employee who cares less about the company or product to build you a somehow "better" rifle. That makes no sense to me. It's not like there are clergymen watching over the Colt factory, blessing all the workers and their products.

Again, I'm not bashing Colt, hell I have 5 Colt 1911s and I only buy Colt 1911s. My next handgun will be a LW XSE Commander, as a matter of fact, but to say that their union laborers are somehow vastly superior to me is silly. The majority of problems stemming from the AR-15 weapon system come from the parts level, not assembly. As long as you keep your QC high and use only top shelf stuff, you can build the equivalent of a Colt. In my example the only thing I think I could possibly improve would be to get a Colt bolt. But that too is subjective.

[rob_s]

I just have to disagree. As long as you are purchasing top shelf parts, there is nothing magical about anyone's factory that would allow them to produce a superior product. You say you wouldn't trust a rifle you built, but you would trust a rifle some union employee who cares less about the company or product to build you a somehow "better" rifle. That makes no sense to me. It's not like there are clergymen watching over the Colt factory, blessing all the workers and their products.

Again, I'm not bashing Colt, hell I have 5 Colt 1911s and I only buy Colt 1911s. My next handgun will be a LW XSE Commander, as a matter of fact, but to say that their union laborers are somehow vastly superior to me is silly. The majority of problems stemming from the AR-15 weapon system come from the parts level, not assembly. As long as you keep your QC high and use only top shelf stuff, you can build the equivalent of a Colt. In my example the only thing I think I could possibly improve would be to get a Colt bolt. But that too is subjective.

Re-read what I wrote.
I really think that everyone should build one rifle from a stripped lower. I'm still not convinced that I'd depend on that rifle, but you could build a plinker, a dedicated .22, or something for a kid to learn on where reliabity wasn't as important, and you'd learn alot about the rifle that you do depend on.

I said I wouldn't trust a rifle that YOU built.

Everyone keeps saying that it's so easy to build an AR, and in alot of ways it is. But we all have seen, if you spend any amount of time shooting with groups of people with ARs, all kinds of problems with scratch-built ARs. Yes, some of them are from using sub-standard parts, but there are assembly issues as well.

Building an AR is relatively easy, but it's not just a matter of putting all the pieces in a box and shaking it to have them all fall into place.

[Tang419]

Re-read what I wrote.


I said I wouldn't trust a rifle that YOU built.

Everyone keeps saying that it's so easy to build an AR, and in alot of ways it is. But we all have seen, if you spend any amount of time shooting with groups of people with ARs, all kinds of problems with scratch-built ARs. Yes, some of them are from using sub-standard parts, but there are assembly issues as well.

Building an AR is relatively easy, but it's not just a matter of putting all the pieces in a box and shaking it to have them all fall into place.


Must not be too easy. Whoever put my M&P together sure screwed up. Loose barrel, misaligned gas tube, leaking carrier key, and key bolts staked with a flat blade screwdriver.

[.45fmjoe]

Re-read what I wrote.


I said I wouldn't trust a rifle that YOU built.

Everyone keeps saying that it's so easy to build an AR, and in alot of ways it is. But we all have seen, if you spend any amount of time shooting with groups of people with ARs, all kinds of problems with scratch-built ARs. Yes, some of them are from using sub-standard parts, but there are assembly issues as well.

Building an AR is relatively easy, but it's not just a matter of putting all the pieces in a box and shaking it to have them all fall into place.

I would go so far as to guess that 99% of failures from home builds are parts related. We aren't talking about building AKs where you have to drill, press, weld, heat treat, etc. If you are drilling your own FSBs or gas ports then you could have problems. But the rest is just a jigsaw puzzle. I would imagine, based on how I build, that the average home builder is going to be much more careful and meticulous than a factory union employee. But if you do everything correctly, there is no difference between you and a factory employee.

[rob_s]

if you do everything correctly,

That is the key. And it's the key that way too many people miss.

[.45fmjoe]

That is the key. And it's the key that way too many people miss.

Oh, well. <insert laughing smilie here> I can't vouch for everybody, but I'm really meticulous about doing everything correctly. :D

[Skintop911]

Sort of like the AR progression:

I think that pretty much nails it.

[rob_s]

Oh, well. <insert laughing smilie here> I can't vouch for everybody, but I'm really meticulous about doing everything correctly. :D

And many of them would tell you that they are too. The thing is, short of attending Colt (or BM, or whoever) armorer school or a Caputo class, how do you really KNOW that you're doing things correctly?

[olds442tyguy]

It's a phase in everyone's development; especially on the interweb. You start out being a newbie, then you get to be all "hollier than thou" towards the newbies (forgetting that you were one just a few minutes ago), and eventually you just get tired of the whole damn thing.

You just single handedly defined the entire internet in only two sentences.

[tinman44]

Sort of like the AR progression:

Stage 1 - Dissipators are cool! But I'll save money and build a Tier 3 kit. What's Tier 3 mean?

Stage 2 - My T3 gun doesn't work. What do I need to do to fix it?

Stage 3 - Ok, my new upper I built from known parts is nice but I catch flak because it's a homebuild.

Stage 4 - Order 'boutique' upper, tweak to accomodate lessons learned.

Stage 5 - Who has a Colt 6920 or LMT in stock?

well mines different, i ordered a colt 6920 from grant yesterday, i recon one day i'll build one. i still do things is like my carpentry history, measure twice cut once. i did all the research until i felt comfortable and then ordered what i expect to be gtg out of the box. my dad always used to say "your paying for the name" i however have always believed "you get what you pay for", when i set out to aqcuire something i do research so i only have to buy one. i may own another one day but at this point i just wanted the one. as far as the internet progression, again i skipped the holier than thou section. i went from noob about 11 years ago to not giving a crap about my spelling or punctuation. :D i am what is commonly referred to as a forum whore, i am a member and read over 6 forums a day, they are paintball, laptop, ar15, several gaming sites, community sites, and of course work related forums. reading forums does not fill me in fact mostly it emptys my soul :p

[Resq47]

There are always anomalies :D

At any rate early on in the game I see a lot of guys pair apprehension of the platform with attempts to minimize initial investment. While there certainly are plenty of people with enough play money to jump into a hobby with a multi-thousand dollar investment, there are many more that would rather take a baby step first. The problem comes when they don't know the difference between a BCM upper / LMT lower and an XYZ kit on a XYZ lower they grabbed at the county gun show.

I'm as guilty as the next guy, and haven't bought an assembled lower yet! My first AR was a T3 kit that I put together on a stripped RRA lower during the ban. After replacing the out-of-spec upper (off-center gas tube hole causing function issues from key drag, junk anodizing if it was even anodized) it ran fine until I sold it. In the process of getting that first setup sorted I acquired the tooling needed to do basic gunplumbing and the rest is history.

If my only option back then was to get a 6920 I'd be thousands of dollars richer and still not an AR shooter. Cost of entry was too high. It would have been much simpler if BCM were around then ;)

The shorter version: If you never go down that dark alley, you won't know that there are bad things out there.

[R Moran]

Some where on Ken Elmores sight, he notes that building an AR isn't as easy as you think, I'll take his word for it.

Are you all, building your own 1911's, Glocks, etc or are those union workers somehow different?

Colt manufacturing produces and sells 1911's Colt Defense produces and sell the AR line, they sell MAtch targets to Colt manufacturing who markets them. They are 2 different and sepeerate company, apparently the buliding is the only thing they share,

I beleive the high cost of the Colt, is directly related to demand, as before the ban, and war, they were only about 700 bucks.

Not all union workers are deush bags, you'd be suprised at what national assets are entrusted to lazy, don't give a rats ass, union workers.

I still think many people fail to consideer the overhead a company, Colt or otherwise, has to recover, and is reflected in the price.

Bob

[Resq47]

Not all union workers are deush bags, you'd be suprised at what national assets are entrusted to lazy, don't give a rats ass, union workers.

Bob

Agreed. My department and the other local agencies are filthy with them ;) Wouldn't have it any other way.

[QuietShootr]

Sort of like the AR progression:

Stage 1 - Dissipators are cool! But I'll save money and build a Tier 3 kit. What's Tier 3 mean?

Stage 2 - My T3 gun doesn't work. What do I need to do to fix it?

Stage 3 - Ok, my new upper I built from known parts is nice but I catch flak because it's a homebuild.

Stage 4 - Order 'boutique' upper, tweak to accomodate lessons learned.

Stage 5 - Who has a Colt 6920 or LMT in stock?


I think you about got it.

[rob_s]

Anyone else have anything to add to this? I light of some reading I've been doing elsewhere on the internet I thought I'd revive this. I also happen to think that there is alot of very good information here.

The most telling thing for me was that we pretty well established that one can assemble (as opposed to build) in about 30 seconds a complete upper, lower, and BCG into a carbine that is virtually identical to the Colt in appearance as well as quality and features for just about $950. From looking around on gunsamerica.com it would appear that one can buy a brand new BM M4 for $850 +/-. While I understand people not wanting to pay nearly double for the Colt (I saw 6920s at the funshow this weekend for $1700:eek: ), I don't think many people would shy away from paying $100 to have a vastly superior firearm.

[C4IGrant]

Anyone else have anything to add to this? I light of some reading I've been doing elsewhere on the internet I thought I'd revive this. I also happen to think that there is alot of very good information here.

The most telling thing for me was that we pretty well established that one can assemble (as opposed to build) in about 30 seconds a complete upper, lower, and BCG into a carbine that is virtually identical to the Colt in appearance as well as quality and features for just about $950. From looking around on gunsamerica.com it would appear that one can buy a brand new BM M4 for $850 +/-. While I understand people not wanting to pay nearly double for the Colt (I saw 6920s at the funshow this weekend for $1700:eek: ), I don't think many people would shy away from paying $100 to have a vastly superior firearm.


As you figured out, you can get into say an LMT or BCM AR for around $900-$950. This would be an outstanding weapon IMHO and just a little more coin than a BM/RRA/etc and a lot better weapon for sure.

Pretty soon, I will have access to some nice 4150 barrels with M4 barrel extensions and will be able to couple them with all the FN contracted parts I have been hording. I will try to build some high quality COMPLETE uppers for around $499 (or less). :eek:


C4

[Yojimbo]

.

Pretty soon, I will have access to some nice 4150 barrels with M4 barrel extensions and will be able to couple them with all the FN contracted parts I have been hording. I will try to build some high quality COMPLETE uppers for around $499 (or less). :eek:


C4

I'll be looking forward to seeing these uppers!:D

While you're at it, maybe you can start reloading too and make us some good quality ammo for a decent price...;)

Regarding building a "Colt" quality AR, I think it really starts at the barrel and BCG. If you get those two things in line first then stick to well known, quality parts for everything else you will be good to go.

I still can't believe the how many times I've seen a super pimp AR build up with all the top of the line parts like billet receivers, LaRue rails $2000 optics and then the user puts a bargain basement priced Model1 barrel and BCG on it! WTF?

[C4IGrant]

I'll be looking forward to seeing these uppers!:D

While you're at it, maybe you can start reloading too and make us some good quality ammo for a decent price...;)

Regarding building a "Colt" quality AR, I think it really starts at the barrel and BCG. If you get those two things in line first then stick to well known, quality parts for everything else you will be good to go.

I still can't believe the how many times I've seen a super pimp AR build up with all the top of the line parts like billet receivers, LaRue rails $2000 optics and then the user puts a bargain basement priced Model1 barrel and BCG on it! WTF?


I have the Mil-Spec M4 upper receivers ready, and the FN contracted BCG's so I am just waiting for the barrels to show. There will be two options. 16" M4 profile with carbine gas system and a 16" Govt profle barrel with a middy gas system. 4150 steel, MP tested, M4 barrel extension, chrome lined, 1/7 twist.

Reloading for the purpose of selling is a virtual nightmare IMHO.

I agree about the barrel and BCG. These two items really dictate the quality/reliability of the weapon.


C4

[Wayne Dobbs]

And I will be in line for one of your uppers, Grant!

[rob_s]

Pretty soon, I will have access to some nice 4150 barrels with M4 barrel extensions and will be able to couple them with all the FN contracted parts I have been hording. I will try to build some high quality COMPLETE uppers for around $499 (or less). :eek:

With BCG?

[C4IGrant]

With BCG?


With the FN contracted ones that include a black insert, 5 coil CS spring, Crane O-Ring and gas key with torx bolts installed and properly staked!



C4

[C4IGrant]

And I will be in line for one of your uppers, Grant!


Roger Wayne! I intend to scare some folks with these and to get the RRA/BM/DPMS crowd to realize that they are getting parts that are not equal for the same money. Should be fun!


C4

[rob_s]

$500 for an upper as you describe and with a high quality BCG and you should sell a ton of them. I say "should" because as is evidenced by the threads going on TOS most people would rather have whatever their local dealer has on special that week.

[C4IGrant]

$500 for an upper as you describe and with a high quality BCG and you should sell a ton of them. I say "should" because as is evidenced by the threads going on TOS most people would rather have whatever their local dealer has on special that week.


Agree. My customer is mostly found on this forum, 10-8 and a couple other professional forums. The products that I stock and AR's that I build generally never interest the "dirt shooting" crowd so I most likely won't sell that many of them.


C4

[Paulinski]

I rather buy quality upper from reputable place that my local gunstore bargain bin special.

But that is just me....YMMV

[Gibbles]

When it comes to AR15's I'm do damn picky to buy much local. :D

Right now I'm slowly working on a 20in build, but I'm having a hard time finding the barrel I want.

[C4IGrant]

When it comes to AR15's I'm do damn picky to buy much local. :D

Right now I'm slowly working on a 20in build, but I'm having a hard time finding the barrel I want.

What kind of barrel are you looking for?



C4

[QuietShootr]

Roger Wayne! I intend to scare some folks with these and to get the RRA/BM/DPMS crowd to realize that they are getting parts that are not equal for the same money. Should be fun!


C4

Rotsa ruck rith rat, Raggy.

[Gibbles]

What kind of barrel are you looking for?
C4

Well I want a 20in, I’m thinking 1/7, 4150, 5.56, chrome, and M4 ramps are a must.
It’s going to be free floated, weight is not much of an issue, and I’m going to use it in some competitions where I’ll be shooting from prone. For run and gun stuff I have my carbine.
Accuracy is important but reliability is more important.

I'm open to suggestions and the only thing set in stone is the 20in and the extended ramps. :D

[C4IGrant]

Rotsa ruck rith rat, Raggy.

Yeah I know. If it doesn't have a "cat or a snake" on the side of it, its gotta suck.


C4

[C4IGrant]

Well I want a 20in, I’m thinking 1/7, 4150, 5.56, chrome, and M4 ramps are a must.
It’s going to be free floated, weight is not much of an issue, and I’m going to use it in some competitions where I’ll be shooting from prone. For run and gun stuff I have my carbine.
Accuracy is important but reliability is more important.

I'm open to suggestions and the only thing set in stone is the 20in and the extended ramps. :D


You could try CMMG. BCM makes a really nice barrel fitting your description, but they are a long ways out from seeing production.

A thought for you is to go with a Noveske 20" in SS. They are VERY reliable and will give you premium accuracy.


C4

[Dport]

Yeah I know. If it doesn't have a "cat or a snake" on the side of it, its gotta suck.


C4

A cat?

[C4IGrant]

A cat?


Sorry, was referring to DPMS's Panther.



C4

[rob_s]

That reminds me, I have another forum to check.;)

[Dport]

Sorry, was referring to DPMS's Panther.



C4

The last time I really eyeballed a DPMS was in 1998. So that explains why I didn't remember their roll mark.

[UVvis]

My first thought of "Cat" was Sabre....

[Gibbles]

You could try CMMG. BCM makes a really nice barrel fitting your description, but they are a long ways out from seeing production.

A thought for you is to go with a Noveske 20" in SS. They are VERY reliable and will give you premium accuracy.


C4

I have been looking at CMMG but I heard they can be hit and miss.
I have been waiting for BCM's 20in for a long time, it’s getting close to the time when I want to finish the rifle and I don't know when the heck they will have anything in stock.
I have looked at Noveske but the longest I saw was 18in?
Hell I have seen a lot of barrels I liked in 18in, 16, and 14.5, but not much in 20.
Although it could work as long as I have the rifle length gas system (Few of the competitions are for iron sights)
I was looking at Randal’s site (AR15barrels.com), and I might just have him make me a barrel.

[C4IGrant]

I have been looking at CMMG but I heard they can be hit and miss.
I have been waiting for BCM's 20in for a long time, it’s getting close to the time when I want to finish the rifle and I don't know when the heck they will have anything in stock.
I have looked at Noveske but the longest I saw was 18in?
Hell I have seen a lot of barrels I liked in 18in, 16, and 14.5, but not much in 20.
Although it could work as long as I have the rifle length gas system (Few of the competitions are for iron sights)
I was looking at Randal’s site (AR15barrels.com), and I might just have him make me a barrel.


You can special order any barrel length from Noveske that you like.



C4

[Gibbles]

You can special order any barrel length from Noveske that you like.



C4

Really?!
hmm.... :)

I might need to do some tweaking of the budget of this thing... :D
Can I get a ball park price on a 20in, almost ready to bolt on to the upper with barrel nut, and I’ll probably want their matched bolt too.
And I assume they all come standard with the extended ramps, and 5.56 chamber.

[C4IGrant]

Really?!
hmm.... :)

I might need to do some tweaking of the budget of this thing... :D
Can I get a ball park price on a 20in, almost ready to bolt on to the upper with barrel nut, and I’ll probably want their matched bolt too.
And I assume they all come standard with the extended ramps, and 5.56 chamber.


I believe the barrels run around $370. They come standard with M4 barrel extensions.


C4

[Gibbles]

Awesome, I think I found my barrel. :)
About how long would it take to get it?

[C4IGrant]

Awesome, I think I found my barrel. :)
About how long would it take to get it?


Hard to say for certain. Could be 2-4 months.



C4

[trio]

well...i would be lying if I said I read all of that...

Having said that...I just picked up myn 6920 today...I paid $1199 for it shipped to my favorite FFL....

I think, given all the factors, I am going to say I am pretty damn satisfied with value for my money....

(and for those that dont believe the price, gotm4 filled out my paperwork....)

ETA: and I do not work in the gun industry, and I am not a LEO, .gov or .mil anymore...so no discounts such as that...

[gotm4]

well...i would be lying if I said I read all of that...

Having said that...I just picked up myn 6920 today...I paid $1199 for it shipped to my favorite FFL....

I think, given all the factors, I am going to say I am pretty damn satisfied with value for my money....

(and for those that dont believe the price, gotm4 filled out my paperwork....)

ETA: and I do not work in the gun industry, and I am not a LEO, .gov or .mil anymore...so no discounts such as that...

Yeah that was a damn good price. It has a Diemaco marked M16 bolt carrier, like I said I've never seen one of those. It's weird, our last two 6920s had Diemaco upper receivers but Colt marked M16 carriers opposite of yours, (yours has the Diemaco carrier with a Colt & Cerro upper receiver).

[Aubrey]

Really?!
hmm.... :)

I might need to do some tweaking of the budget of this thing... :D
Can I get a ball park price on a 20in, almost ready to bolt on to the upper with barrel nut, and I’ll probably want their matched bolt too.
And I assume they all come standard with the extended ramps, and 5.56 chamber.

Noveske's 20" and 24" barrels are listed under "Sporting Barrels (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=28)."

[Skintop911]

Yeah that was a damn good price. It has a Diemaco marked M16 bolt carrier, like I said I've never seen one of those. It's weird, our last two 6920s had Diemaco upper receivers but Colt marked M16 carriers opposite of yours, (yours has the Diemaco carrier with a Colt & Cerro upper receiver).

There are some interesting US/Canadian parts hybrids going around.

[abnk]

I have the Mil-Spec M4 upper receivers ready, and the FN contracted BCG's so I am just waiting for the barrels to show. There will be two options. 16" M4 profile with carbine gas system and a 16" Govt profle barrel with a middy gas system. 4150 steel, MP tested, M4 barrel extension, chrome lined, 1/7 twist.

Reloading for the purpose of selling is a virtual nightmare IMHO.

I agree about the barrel and BCG. These two items really dictate the quality/reliability of the weapon.


C4

Sir,


My next complete upper will be from you. :D

[MVolkJ]

Yeah that was a damn good price. It has a Diemaco marked M16 bolt carrier, like I said I've never seen one of those. It's weird, our last two 6920s had Diemaco upper receivers but Colt marked M16 carriers opposite of yours, (yours has the Diemaco carrier with a Colt & Cerro upper receiver).

I do believe mine is one of those two. :D

(Diemaco upper, Colt M16 carrier, Colt Defense marked lower, purchased at VA Arms a couple of weeks ago)

-Mark

[M193 BALL]

I've seen this posted more than a few times, especially whenever the subject of the Colt 6920 comes up. Rather than hijack all these other threads, I thought I'd post seperately and see what exactly the guys who say this would build. Often there are posts relating to sight radius/gas system length and/or barrel profile, and those deviations are acceptable. In this case, however, I think certain criteria are non-negotiable:

F-marked FSB
M4 feedramps
MPI 4150 chrome-lined barrel
MPI Bolt

Staking can be done at home, so I'm not as concerned with that.


I had a few grand to spend

After ordering a 14.5 lmt upper for my bushy lower,
I found that this little barrle could shoot better than I could
5rds touching at 100 yards


So I just had to have the ALMOST REAL DEAL M4

I oder straight from LMT a Complete 14.5 upper
( 40 bucks for M4 HG :confused: )

Then I had my DEALER order straight from LMT A
SOPMOD,2 stage trigger lower,PR4 mount


Then put it together!


I also skip LMT BUIS and bought arms 40L same plane

Took off the 40 M4HG

added KAC RAS & VPG

Larue cantilever and my old ML2




I just love the LMT M4
there SOPMOD Rules compared to my OLDER VLTOR model
Scared about the 2 stage trigger. But has been running 100%
Very accurate with Black Hills Blue 77gr and White box 77gr
The Blue box 75gr is awesome as well and has a cannaclure
wich I use most of the time

I could of bought COLT 16inch M4 6920 with my 2G`s

But I think My Defender M4 is just as good if not maybe even better


I really dont consider my defender a Home built


Now my Bushy/LMT was Kinda since it was a strip lower :D

[toddackerman]

I've seen this posted more than a few times, especially whenever the subject of the Colt 6920 comes up. Rather than hijack all these other threads, I thought I'd post seperately and see what exactly the guys who say this would build. Often there are posts relating to sight radius/gas system length and/or barrel profile, and those deviations are acceptable. In this case, however, I think certain criteria are non-negotiable:

F-marked FSB
M4 feedramps
MPI 4150 chrome-lined barrel
MPI Bolt

Staking can be done at home, so I'm not as concerned with that.
The question is not can it be done cheaper....but will it run, and if not who's customer service do you go to?

[C4IGrant]

The question is not can it be done cheaper....but will it run, and if not who's customer service do you go to?


If you build it, then your on the hook to make it run. If you buy from a dealer (like ourselves) and it doesn't run, then we are on the hook.


C4

[warpigM-4]

I got
M4 feedramps on a "Keyhole upper"
4150 Chrome lined 1/7 barrel
Plan on getting a BCM MPI Bolt and carrier . way less than colt

[Ridge_Runner_5]

My build:

Superior Arms lower reciever - $100
DPMS Lower Parts Kit - $55
Hogue Pistol Grip - $15
DPMS A4 Upper - $400
GG&G BUIS - $50
4pos Collapsible Stock - $15
Knights VFG - Free from friend (not shown in pics)
EOTech 511 w/GG&G mount - $325
CAA Tac-light - $40
GG&G Sling adaptor - $8
PMAG x2 - $30

Total of $1038

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/100_5875.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/1005854.jpg

[rob_s]

Better (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/better)
bet·ter1 /ˈbɛtər/
–adjective, compar. of good with best as superl.
1. of superior quality or excellence: a better coat; a better speech.
3. of superior suitability, advisability, desirability, acceptableness, etc.; preferable: a better time for action.

[750.356]

My build:

Superior Arms lower reciever - $100
DPMS Lower Parts Kit - $55
Hogue Pistol Grip - $15
DPMS A4 Upper - $400
GG&G BUIS - $50
4pos Collapsible Stock - $15
Knights VFG - Free from friend (not shown in pics)
EOTech 511 w/GG&G mount - $325
CAA Tac-light - $40
GG&G Sling adaptor - $8
PMAG x2 - $30

Total of $1038


You're also not going to have a functional carbine without a receiver extension, castle nut, buffer, and spring.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

You're also not going to have a functional carbine without a receiver extension, castle nut, buffer, and spring.

The stock came with all that, thus it being in the pic ;)

[variablebinary]

Given that I can BUILD exactly what I want for a reasonable price, and some of the factory guns Ive seen lately (even from the pony farm), I'll keep rolling my own "franken-guns" with the best stuff I can get.

Very very true. There are few real values for complete factory guns anymore.

Getting the upper and lower and slapping them together saves $100 bucks instantly in most cases.

What I find most interesting is builds as good as Colt almost always seem to start with LMT

[Shihan]

My build:

Superior Arms lower reciever - $100
DPMS Lower Parts Kit - $55
Hogue Pistol Grip - $15
DPMS A4 Upper - $400
GG&G BUIS - $50