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Outlander Systems
01-20-10, 17:09
http://www.kvue.com/news/Gun-show-owner-alleges-rights-violation-82115242.html

OPPFOR
01-20-10, 17:21
This is a bunch of BS. This is how government tries to limit our rights as law abiding citizens. Notice how the APD says it is a civil dispute between the tenant and party leasing the convention center. This after the APD issued a hasty set of guidelines concerning the sale of privately owned firearms.

CharlieKilo
01-20-10, 18:20
Gotta love the Mafia style tactics the BATFE and APD used on the Organizer.

Talk about rights violation.

Naxet1959
01-20-10, 18:24
Never underestimate the power of a "death of a thousand cuts"...:mad:

6933
01-20-10, 18:30
I hope everyone realizes Austin is an extremely liberal city in a state that is not liberal.

Artos
01-20-10, 18:32
...Austin would be a better fit in Califonia.

That city has been in a left handed spiral for a looong time now. I'm told the SAXET gun show pulled out of there due to mandating ffl tables only before this happened.

SW-Shooter
01-20-10, 19:50
It's an election year in Texas, we can stop this. If we don't do it now we will have failed the future generations of responsible gun owners.

SeriousStudent
01-20-10, 20:10
The Texas State Rifle Association is aware of this. As are their lawyers.

Volucris
01-20-10, 21:35
While I'm mostly outraged by this, I do see some light too it. Almost every gun show I've been too I've been able to find shady private dealers who have bought tables so they can sell cheap firearms with their "no paperwork" marketing scheme. I had one recently where I was looking at a Ruger .45 pistol on the guy's table and I asked how low he'd go on it. Guy just repeated the printed price and I retorted with a price quote for the same pistol NIB at other tables. He then leaned in close and said "but you don't have to do paperwork on this one it's just cash and carry". To which I loudly said back to him around a large group of people: "NO PAPERWORK IS PRETTY NICE SINCE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING TO MAKE ILLEGAL SALES!".


I run into it every show. The inner city shows are the worst where some low life scum has bought a bunch of hipoints and then sells them privately with a "cash and carry" scheme.


Yes, it really sucks that big gov is doing shit like this. I firmly believe the BATF is the most unconstitutional government entity in America right now. What you have to admit is that people are abusing the private sales laws. They're selling across state lines, to felons, to people who just can't pass an NCIS check, minors, etc. While I myself and others have made several completely legal FTF transactions in the past, it's these morons who do it wrong that give us all a bad rap. Consequently with politicians being largely retarded from sleeping through American History and Ethics, blanket knee-jerk legislation comes through with this.
I'm not saying we deserve things like this, I'm just saying we should have seen it coming.

Thankfully the firearms community has a strong legal base and plenty of people will fight this one. Officials who proposed this are treasonous imo.

Belmont31R
01-20-10, 21:44
While I'm mostly outraged by this, I do see some light too it. Almost every gun show I've been too I've been able to find shady private dealers who have bought tables so they can sell cheap firearms with their "no paperwork" marketing scheme. I had one recently where I was looking at a Ruger .45 pistol on the guy's table and I asked how low he'd go on it. Guy just repeated the printed price and I retorted with a price quote for the same pistol NIB at other tables. He then leaned in close and said "but you don't have to do paperwork on this one it's just cash and carry". To which I loudly said back to him around a large group of people: "NO PAPERWORK IS PRETTY NICE SINCE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING TO MAKE ILLEGAL SALES!".


I run into it every show. The inner city shows are the worst where some low life scum has bought a bunch of hipoints and then sells them privately with a "cash and carry" scheme.


Yes, it really sucks that big gov is doing shit like this. I firmly believe the BATF is the most unconstitutional government entity in America right now. What you have to admit is that people are abusing the private sales laws. They're selling across state lines, to felons, to people who just can't pass an NCIS check, minors, etc. While I myself and others have made several completely legal FTF transactions in the past, it's these morons who do it wrong that give us all a bad rap. Consequently with politicians being largely retarded from sleeping through American History and Ethics, blanket knee-jerk legislation comes through with this.
I'm not saying we deserve things like this, I'm just saying we should have seen it coming.

Thankfully the firearms community has a strong legal base and plenty of people will fight this one. Officials who proposed this are treasonous imo.



Has nothing to do with illegal sales although that is their excuse. The left has been wanting to shut down non-FFL private party sales for a long time.

If they want to stop the sales you described there has been laws against that since 1968 with the Gun Control Act. If they are buying and selling guns for profit its illegal. They could snatch people up for that instead of arresting people on some BS nuisance law for doing something perfectly legal (sales where the intent is to not make a profit as a business).

I live about 10 minutes from Austin but in Williamson County, and avoid Austin at all costs.

snafu
01-20-10, 21:45
It's an election year in Texas, we can stop this. If we don't do it now we will have failed the future generations of responsible gun owners.

Mark LaRue for Guvnor?

NinjaMedic
01-20-10, 22:12
Gun show "loopholes" are such a hot button issue for most liberals that I almost think we should push to close them on our terms while maintaining private party non-FFL sales to ensure that the liberals cant take that away.

m4fun
01-20-10, 23:55
Can we just change the definitions from "Gun Show Loophole" to "Gun show BS?"

Sort of like "sporting rifle" instead of "assault rifle," although that really hasnt worked...

Think about it - how about a reality show - when a politician says xxxx he means yyyy?

"I will pick on guns since I have no other issues and hope my constituants are as stupid as I am."

joffe
01-21-10, 00:57
While I'm mostly outraged by this, I do see some light too it. Almost every gun show I've been too I've been able to find shady private dealers who have bought tables so they can sell cheap firearms with their "no paperwork" marketing scheme. I had one recently where I was looking at a Ruger .45 pistol on the guy's table and I asked how low he'd go on it. Guy just repeated the printed price and I retorted with a price quote for the same pistol NIB at other tables. He then leaned in close and said "but you don't have to do paperwork on this one it's just cash and carry". To which I loudly said back to him around a large group of people: "NO PAPERWORK IS PRETTY NICE SINCE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING TO MAKE ILLEGAL SALES!".


I run into it every show. The inner city shows are the worst where some low life scum has bought a bunch of hipoints and then sells them privately with a "cash and carry" scheme.


Yes, it really sucks that big gov is doing shit like this. I firmly believe the BATF is the most unconstitutional government entity in America right now. What you have to admit is that people are abusing the private sales laws. They're selling across state lines, to felons, to people who just can't pass an NCIS check, minors, etc. While I myself and others have made several completely legal FTF transactions in the past, it's these morons who do it wrong that give us all a bad rap. Consequently with politicians being largely retarded from sleeping through American History and Ethics, blanket knee-jerk legislation comes through with this.
I'm not saying we deserve things like this, I'm just saying we should have seen it coming.

Thankfully the firearms community has a strong legal base and plenty of people will fight this one. Officials who proposed this are treasonous imo.

Well 'cash and carry' is a feather in the marketing hat. Lots of perfectly legitimate people don't like the BATFE forms and go to gun shows to avoid them. Privacy isn't 'shady'.

Iraqgunz
01-21-10, 01:45
The next time someone is killed by a kitchen knife or a speeding car I am going to demand that we prohibit the further sale, transfer or giving away of any "assault knife" or assault vehicle" between private parties w/o first having a background check.

This is ridiculous. As much as I don't care for some of what I have seen. We are talking about non-FFL persons selling THEIR OWN personal property. Unless there is a particular state law against it, it is what it is.

John_Wayne777
01-21-10, 07:30
"NO PAPERWORK IS PRETTY NICE SINCE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING TO MAKE ILLEGAL SALES!".


That's a good way to get punched in the mush.

Some people don't like paperwork because they know it's part of an illegal registration scheme maintained by the BATFE.

Marcus L.
01-21-10, 08:14
I grew up in Austin, but haven't lived there in over 10yrs. Things have definately changed...... :confused:

Dave Berryhill
01-21-10, 08:26
Austin is the Berkeley of Texas. Living here has been interesting to say the least.

rifleman2000
01-21-10, 08:37
To which I loudly said back to him around a large group of people: "NO PAPERWORK IS PRETTY NICE SINCE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY LOOKING TO MAKE ILLEGAL SALES!".


Classy.

Private sales of private property are a very important freedom. Unless you had proof that guy was selling illegal guns, you should have kept your mouth shut. If you had proof, you should have reported it.

Outlander Systems
01-21-10, 09:00
I'm trying to figure out how they could actually enforce something like this.

Did they pass some sort of municipal code that prohibits individual sales of firearms?

The problem with these types of actions, is that they set a very bad precedent.

I will say that I personally would like the presence of mind to know that the dude buying my stuff is on the up and up. I don't need nanny-gov to see to it that he is.

My new face-to-face sales policy for personal firearms is that I will require to see a Georgia Firearms License and a Driver's License.

A-Bear680
01-21-10, 09:14
Maine has been working on a public list of FFL's that will do purely voluntary checks for individual sellers. Kittery Trading Post had done over 100.000 free , voluntary , checks for sellers even before the state program was proposed.

GMZ
01-21-10, 10:14
I'm trying to figure out how they could actually enforce something like this.

Did they pass some sort of municipal code that prohibits individual sales of firearms?

The problem with these types of actions, is that they set a very bad precedent.

I will say that I personally would like the presence of mind to know that the dude buying my stuff is on the up and up. I don't need nanny-gov to see to it that he is.

My new face-to-face sales policy for personal firearms is that I will require to see a Georgia Firearms License and a Driver's License.



"Selling of Firearms"

At the direction of the Austin Police Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, anyone selling a firearm at this show location will be asked to comply with the following:

1. Any person selling a personal firearm must go through a licensed FFL dealer in the show to transfer the firearm to the new owner.

2. Selling of firearms in the parking lot will not be permitted.

Thank you for your cooperation!

Will be asked? Sounds like the property owner (HEB) not the gunshow people either didnt want them to be done at the show or let himself be bullied by the BATFE/APD. As they are the "owners" of the property they can throw out whatever policies they see fit. If it was law, it would be stated "IAW Austin Municipal Code 123.45". What would they charge you with if you did a ftf? Doesnt TX have state preemption anyway?

Skintop911
01-21-10, 10:55
LE became aware of crimes occurring on some property. When brought to the attention of the property owner, the owner requested advice from LE on how to stop it. LE provided advice likely to assist the site. The property owner imposed rules upon the property users consistent with LE recommendations and his own wishes.

The flyer and signage is a request of the property owner and a term and condition of the organizer's use. The organizer and guests are free to violate those terms and conditions. Sanction comes from the property owner.

Nothing has been imposed upon the property owner by LE.

The flyer and signage are poorly worded.


At the direction of the Austin Police Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, anyone selling a firearm at this show location will be asked to comply with the following:

This wording gives the property owner the ability to save some face with his tenant and guests and blame it on LE. In the future, LE could volunteer to draft messages. I'd write something more like, "on the advice of..." or other message more crime-prevention oriented and palatable to the user.

Then again, it's more fun to get the tinfoil hats out, hackles up, and beat chests than to analyze and think critically about what occurred.

joffe
01-21-10, 11:48
Well, if you had 'analyzed' a little yourself as you claim noone else is doing, you would know the situation was not as you describe;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ll5chfz1qFU/S1OQ5suq-qI/AAAAAAAAFcQ/M9nzEFqQDEE/s1600-h/ScreenHunter_04+Jan.+17+17.35.jpg
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2010/01/messin-with-texas.html
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2010/01/more-about-texas-gun-shows-in-austin.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m1d19-Austin-Police-statement-on-banning-private-sales-at-Texas-Gun-Shows

CarlosDJackal
01-21-10, 12:39
...I run into it every show. The inner city shows are the worst where some low life scum has bought a bunch of hipoints and then sells them privately with a "cash and carry" scheme...

That is pretty close to falling under the category of a Straw Purchase. Or else, they may be in violation of tax laws because they are probably not paying any sales tax on these.

But as you've described it, a private person selling his own collection without having to go through an FFL is not illegal by any means.

Wayne Dobbs
01-21-10, 13:41
Austin, TX = Sodom on the Colorado (river)

dbrowne1
01-21-10, 13:50
I'm trying to figure out how they could actually enforce something like this.

Not sure who the "they" is to which you're referring, but the sign merely "asks" that people run all sales through a FFL - meaning, it requests that they do this.

It's not a law. There's nothing to enforce. At worst the gun show promoter or property owner/renter could kick you out of the gun show for violating their rules.

Skintop911
01-21-10, 14:34
Well, if you had 'analyzed' a little yourself as you claim noone else is doing,

That isn't what I said. This is what I said:


Then again, it's more fun to get the tinfoil hats out, hackles up, and beat chests than to analyze and think critically about what occurred.

That will apply to some and not others. That's targeted more toward those with the inclination to read "BATF" and "gunshow" in the same sentence, and disengage their critical thinking skills. Many of the comments in the blogs you link to are good examples of that. That's less a problem here at M4C.


you would know the situation was not as you describe;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ll5chfz1qFU/S1OQ5suq-qI/AAAAAAAAFcQ/M9nzEFqQDEE/s1600-h/ScreenHunter_04+Jan.+17+17.35.jpg
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2010/01/messin-with-texas.html
http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2010/01/more-about-texas-gun-shows-in-austin.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m1d19-Austin-Police-statement-on-banning-private-sales-at-Texas-Gun-Shows

Thanks for the links, I read each. I also listened to the podcast interview with Darwin in its entirety. They do indeed give more scope, but they don't change the foundation of the argument(s).

The city of Austin, by and through its enforcement mechanism(s), has the right to engage in lawful processes to abate nuisances and intervene in crimes they know to be occurring. When they have identified an incident or pattern of events, they may then compel others subject to its authority to prevent those events through the use of request, influence, the threat of civil or criminal process, or actual civil or criminal action, in the event that those subject to action commit the unlawful acts, or fail to engage in measures that prevent the unlawful acts from occurring.

If Austin does any code, development, or business regulation, they have something to handle this.

According to Darwin and the blogger(s), they were told that they if they didn’t follow those recommendations they would be shut down. I’d like to hear the actual recording of their meeting that was made, or read a transcript, to know the actual verbiage. Whatever the verbiage, and depending on the mechanism used and the construction of the language that establishes it, they almost certainly could do so directly or by default.

The fact that this is a new organizer is interesting and noteworthy. While the pertinent history of the event under old management is relevant for its similarity, and potential for continuing acts, it would have been wise to build at least a brief, newer basis for the same concerns with the new organizer.

The landowner could have rejected the proposal or request and not imposed further requirements on the organizer. He elected to do so. The organizer could comply with the landowner’s requirements, or cancel or move the event. Moving it was highly unlikely due to the late notice. The organizer may have a claim against the landowner for a breach of contract. He would not seem to have standing for a claim against the city. Perhaps there’s a claim for tortuous interference or a 1983 action, but I’ll defer to one of the great legal minds herein for more on that.

This all could have been handled better. Perhaps a letter:


Dear Landowner/Organizer:

The Austin PD has conducted an investigation into the history of unlawful activities occurring on your property/at your event. Austin City Code XYZ.123 establishes that the city can control such problems. This letter is to inform you that this history is evidence of ineffective control of your property/event, and constitutes a public nuisance/something similar. As such, the City of Austin hereby notifies you of our intention to prosecute/litigate/revoke licenses should your failure to manage/mitigate this issue. In consultation with the police department and BATFE, the following recommendations are made and are likely to help you successfully manage your noncompliance: (insert regs). Should you require any further assistance, please call/write/email. Love/Hugs & Kisses/Sincerely, Austin City Office.

People are subject to such enforcement actions, and get these letters all the time. In a nutshell, they read: “get it together, or you’ll get shut down.” Landlords, businesses, event centers, car dealers. In this case, a gun show.

Maybe Austin does indeed hate guns and gunshows. Or maybe they’re just sick of the problems they’re dealing with and are swinging the hammer on folks that won’t police themselves. Either way, let’s at least take a long deep breath.

Chris0311
01-21-10, 15:25
That's a good way to get punched in the mush.

Some people don't like paperwork because they know it's part of an illegal registration scheme maintained by the BATFE.

Yup, agreed.

Shadow1198
01-23-10, 01:40
Myself and a handful of other people from some various small organizations and meetup groups (Austin Coalition for Liberty, etc) camped out at Red's Indoor Range in Austin today. Governor Perry was scheduled to "hang out" there for a bit and get some shooting in after apparently just receiving an NRA endorsement. The plan was to basically raise the issue (in a civil manner of course) and get a response from him. At least he didn't try to skate around the issue, however what he said basically amounted to "Get us some facts and we'll see what we can do". I'll try to remain optimistic, though I'm not holding my breath. :rolleyes: As much as he has been raising hell about secession and other similar topics (coincidentally right before election year), he is strangely silent about a situation like this occurring in his own town, which says a lot.

Private FTF sales are legal in Texas, and there is no city ordinance against it in the city of Austin. Judging by what I've seen thus far, it appears APD and local ATF made some "recommendations" in the meeting they called for with the property owner's representative and gunshow owner. It sounds very likely there was some probable threats accompanying these "recommendations", some of which possibly included the threat of focusing the full power of local and federal law on them both to put them out of business if they weren't in compliance. That's what we're hearing, and I guess for most of us it's speculation at this point and only those involved know the truth. It would not surprise me in the least if it is true or at least very close to the truth, however. I did hear personally from several vendors and individuals attending the show, as well as one vendor that was dragged out of the show this past Saturday and several of his guns confiscated (sounds like some possible shady shit going on with ATF on that one), and the stories all seemed to confirm many of the claims.

Skintop, with all due respect I think you're missing the point on the nuisance abatement statute. That statute is not appropriate for this situation. To give an example, there is a night club on the east side of town here, well known by Austinites, which has had a ridiculous number of stabbings, shootings, and all other number of crimes committed on it's property. That is a prime case for the use of enforcing nuisance abatement statutes as it has been an ongoing, consistent problem. If someone holds a gunshow, it is pretty much a given that at least one person will break some rule or regulation inside of that gunshow at some point. It would be improper to use an abatement statute to shut said show down (which isn't what happened here, just speaking theoretically) just because of a handful of people possibly breaking some laws occasionally. Yes, if said show became a haven for shady dealers consistently breaking tons of laws and doing illegal stuff on a large scale, then that would probably be appropriate. So far APD has admitted to only ~8 arrests (forgive me, can't remember specifically but I believe 8 was the number) from this particular group's shows of people breaking some sort of law (I think most were illegal aliens attempting to buy), BUT that was over the course of like about ~1 year. IMO, that would not constitute sufficient grounds to attempt to shut the venue down. That would be like shutting down a restaurant here just because a couple of people smoked inside a couple of times (Austin has a business smoking ban, wtf I know).

dbrowne1
01-23-10, 09:08
People are subject to such enforcement actions, and get these letters all the time. In a nutshell, they read: “get it together, or you’ll get shut down.” Landlords, businesses, event centers, car dealers. In this case, a gun show.

The appropriate response by LE is to come to the show (and in my area, we always have state, local, and ATF present) and enforce the existing laws. You know, the real laws, that actually exist. Not send letters telling them to post flyers that imply additional duties. Or, the property owner can just not hold the show anymore.

Telling people to run their private sales through a FFL when it's not required and when it adds additional expense and inconvenience is not an appropriate realm for LE to delve into.