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IRONFINS
03-08-10, 18:10
I recently purchased a complete 6.8 SPC rifle from a well known manufacture, out of respect and a current ongoing case, I will NOT state which one it was. I was very excited to order a "piston-driven" AR in 5.56mm. When I called to purchase the rifle on a department letter head I was talked into a 6.8 SPC by a tech at their company. I was told it was "Just as accurate if not more, plus more knock down power." I was a little skeptical but having other 5.56mm it would help justify the new purchase. I read some online and several people praise the 6.8 SPC. So this problem is for them I guess. I started with Remington 115 grain MC rounds, shooting from a table and chair, using a Caldwell rest. Distance was an easy 100 yards. While for the most part I could hit the B-27 (human silhouette) after turning the sight aperture knobs some, I just could not get a consistent group. I was shooting 3 shot groups. I quickly stopped worrying about zero and started focusing on turning out a tight group. Most averaged roughly 6 inches at 100 yards. Best group was just under 4 inches when I moved up to 75 yards. I even tried using a brand new from an Aim-point Dealer that Aim-point personally recommended CompM4. Still, no better. I also tried Hornady 110 grain V max, groupings seem to get more consistently tighter, but still no better than slightly under 4 inches. I felt like I was shooting an AK-47 as far as accuracy goes. So I called the company and after saying its probably me, and I told them my friend who also had a 6.8 SPC in another manufacture, couldn't do any better they told me to send it in and they would look at it. What do y'all think? Bad gun, bad ammo, or is 6.8 SPC a just not an accurate round? Should I ask for the 5.56mm? With the letter head I am not suppose to ever sell the "lower". My point is, if I can't hit the target consistently like I can with my 5.56mm, who cares if it has more knock down power? Thanks for all who answer, and please lets not start the 6.8 SPC vs. 6.5 Grendal debate. I want to know about the accuracy of the 6.8 SPC vs. 5.56mm. Thanks!

Todd.K
03-08-10, 18:25
There is no reason a 6.8 would be less accurate than a 5.56 with equal ammo. You have a problem with ammo or a problem with a rifle/barrel not problem with the caliber.

The Rem FMJ has not been accurate at all from what I have shot.

vicious_cb
03-08-10, 18:36
FIX YOUR FONT!!!!!

IRONFINS
03-08-10, 18:58
I heard that also about the Rem, but the Hornady didn't do any better. So maybe its a rifle problem? How accurate could one expect using a high powered scope and a bench rest? 1 inch?

thmpr
03-08-10, 18:58
Have the following rifles: Complete Barrett, LWRCi, and LMT rifles in 6.8 and all shoots 1 MOA or better with reloads with either the 110 grain Vmax and 115 grains SMK. With factory ammo--> 1.5 MOA is the norm.

IRONFINS
03-08-10, 19:19
Thanks thmpr, that is what I was told to expect from the 6.8 SPC. I had my buddy shoot the rifle too, to eliminate user error. I was in the Army Infantry, and he was a Marine Scout Sniper. So I guess it is not user error, but trying both rounds and not getting any better results, I wonder if the head spacing is off. The rifle functioned perfectly, no jams, no double feeds, as good as you could ask for, but I would be nervous to engage opposition forces at 100 yards. Not good for a SHTF rifle.

VLODPG
03-08-10, 19:20
I have a Denny's/WOA 18" barrel & shooting it with MBUS sites, I have a 5 shot group just breaking a nickle sized group& covered by a quarter at 50 yards.

I was shooting Hornady & SSA ammo

I still can't believe show well it shoots especially since I was behind the trigger!


Your issue, I would bet is the gun & posibally the ammo .

ccoker
03-08-10, 19:40
I have got sub MOA results from several 6.8s I have owned

I honestly don't expect 1/2" groups out of one consistently
but 3/4" is certainly doable

try a scope and some SSA Prohunter loads
they tend to shoot well in most guns

I was getting under 1.5" with a brand new Wilson Combat 16" with my handloaded Barnes 95g TTSX and a 1.5x ACOG TA44
and with an 18" WC all shots touching with a 3-9 Trijicon Accupoint and the same loads

all 100 yard groups of course

it's not the cartridge itself..

MadDog
03-08-10, 19:42
My 16" (old Kotonics barrel) shoots MOA with SSA, Hornaday, and my reloads.

MadDog :p

majohnson
03-08-10, 21:11
My first trip to the range, produced good results. How ever the trigger pull was so bad in compairson to my 1911s, I had a couple of stray shots.

Look around the net, you can find some info on "Barrel Breakin" give that a try. I'm trying it on my 6.8, so far it shoots quit well.

ccoker
03-08-10, 21:35
boy, that's an easy fix :)

Wilson Combat TTU :)

I have one and a WC 1911

I know what you mean by spoiled by good triggers!

IRONFINS
03-10-10, 20:11
Mailed it back today, lets see if they do the "right" thing and make it right. I told them they should just send me a 5.56mm since their 6.8mm SPC won't shoot what they say. Word of advice, it doesn't matter how many ARs you have, if you want another 5.56mm, get it, don't let a salesman talk you into a 6.8mm SPC. Only get a 6.8 if that is what you truly seek. Now I know why the Military has NOT gone to the 6.8mm SPC. A $1900.00 rifle should shoot better than 4 inches at 75 yards from a bench rest. I should have bought a Ak-47 if I wanted crappy groupings a knock down power. 6.8 may have more knock down power, but if I can't hit the target, who cares how bad ass it may be. If they don't make this right, I will disclose their name so all of you can stay away from this company. Stay tuned!

majohnson
03-10-10, 21:20
Sorry your still having problems, hopefully your manufacture will make things right.

I made my 2nd range trip yesterday with my DPMS in 6.8. I swapped the red dot for for a Simmons 6.5x20, once it was sighted in, it would group 3 shots in well under an 1 1/2" at 100 yards. With a fresh target, I shot the last 10 rounds and had a group under 3". Changing the trigger springs made a big difference in pull weight. Not having a scale I don't know the specs before and after, but the feel was like night and day.

I'm shooting Hornaday V max 110grs.

Do you know your twist rate?

IRONFINS
03-10-10, 23:12
1:10 twist416 Hammer Forged Machine Gun Grade Air Gauged Barrel

DocGKR
03-10-10, 23:46
Ironfins,

I have been involved with government 6.8 mm development since early 2002; every good quality 6.8 mm rifle I am aware of has shot as well or BETTER than the equivalent 5.56 mm. There is something wrong with the rifle you received.

6.8 mm is an ideal LE round--I know some LE snipers that have not used their .308 bolt guns in nearly 2 years, as their 12" 6.8 mm Noveske rifles shot nearly as well and were far more versatile--allowing them to carry one rifle type for urban sniping, perimeter, entry, and Patrol duties.

My current favorite LE ammo includes the Hornady 110 gr OTM, SSA 85 gr TSX, and SSA 100 gr Accubond.

IRONFINS
03-11-10, 00:02
Thanks Doc, thats why I bought the 6.8mm SPC. Thinking of all the advantages. However being new to the 6.8, it was disappointing, especially spending $1900.00 with the dept. letterhead discount. Then burning over $150.00 in ammo and feeling like I have an expensive paper weight. What is really screwing me over is I am stuck. I have determined I don't like the 6.8, judge the one I had, not all of them. But I don't have the range time to go "play" with a rifle to get the bugs out, that's why I bought a "top of the line" rifle. I need to zero, then start training with it. Now I know why my dept is such sticklers for ARs being a certain standard. With what I spent on the 6.8 plus ammo I could have bought a nice tier 1 rifle and used the "stockpile" of 5.56mm I already have. After this experience I am starting to doubt the benefit of the piston driven system. Maybe DI is better, at least I know that system works. I know anything man made can and probably will fail, however when I have a gun new and it fails I sell it. But I can't this one, they screwed me if they send me a 6.8mm, I have heard I can change the upper, sell the 6.8 upper, and put a 5.56mm upper on the lower and it will fit perfect and not be sloppy. Since the serial number is only on the lower, would this be ok? I don't want to violate the purchasing order I signed. BTW this company knocked about $975.00 off of the rifle, makes you wonder how bad they are screwing the civilians. After this experience I think I'll spend my money on staying with military caliber ammo only. Then all I have to worry about is having some TAP rounds or other equivalent round. I am the only other person in my AO, besides my buddy who also shot the crappy rifle that has a 6.8mm. His Bushmaster was far more accurate than the brand I had. Ammo is still hard to find for me without going online. Before I bought it two stores in my AO stocked 6.8mm. I have been to 1 gunshow a month all over the state I live in and have only seen 3 boxes of Remington and 2 boxes of Hornady. It just doesn't seem like the 6.8mm is catching on, or is very desirable in my AO. Once this nightmare is over I don't see myself venturing out into AR caliber extacy anytime soon.

fdxpilot
03-11-10, 00:13
I just read a review of a Stag model 7 in a magazine in WallyWorld, while the wife was shopping (can't remember which mag.) Of the half dozen or so 6.8SPC rounds they tried, most were 1.5 MOA or less. Several of the SSA rounds had 1/2in groups.

I'm personally waiting for my outdoor range to open, so I can sight in my Stag model 5. I have a pile of SSA Speer 90gr TNT and Sierra 110gr ProHunter to try out, along with a box of Hornaday VMax.

DocGKR
03-11-10, 00:17
I am sorry for what you are going through--keep in mind, it is the fault of the rifle vendor, not the cartridge.

6.8 mm has offered better terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability than all other assault rifle cartridges in every test I am aware of that has been conducted since 2002. It brings the AR15 to a new level of capability approaching that of .308, but in a more compact, lighter configuration.

It is perfectly acceptable to put other caliber uppers on your lower--in fact, most organizations I know that use 6.8 mm also run identically set-up 5.56 mm uppers for training and reserve the 6.8 mm uppers for duty use (after appropriate zeroing and function verification).

We order all our 6.8 mm direct from Hornady and SSA--we never purchase it locally.

Well done civilian 6.8 mm testing recorded very good performance from the various vendors' uppers: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=353523

The following superb quotes from another thread regarding pistons pretty much sum up what needs to be said:


"They have dubious benefits especially in a carbine length gun. The only time they might be beneficial is if you are:

1. Using a short length gun 10~11"
2. Using a silencer
3. Heavy amounts of rapid fire, like 1000 rounds a day heavy fire

If you cannot answer yes to at least 2 from this list, you do not need a piston"

K9222
03-11-10, 00:43
I agree with most that it's NOT the caliber itself. I have seen most 6.8 SPC's shoot 1.5" or better at 100 yards. If it were me I proabably would have tried a couple more brands of ammo before shipping it back considering if it still shot bad it would just help your case. It definately sounds like a a bad barrel ie, maybe rough barrel, damaged crown, or something of that nature. Don't ve hesitant of the 6.8 SPC cause it is a great round. Hopefully Vendor makes it right.

IRONFINS
03-11-10, 07:05
Thanks for the replys, I shot the Remington and Hornady loads because I called and talked to two different techs on separate occasions that recommended those rounds over any other. I asked about Silver State and they said they were good, but the Rem and Horn were what they shot in their own personal 6.8s. I hope it is the rifle, but being new to 6.8 it doesn't help my confidence to have problems early on. Now as far as function of the rifle it cycled perfectly, no jams, double feeds, or delayed timing. I might have to sit the 6.8 crusade out until better ammo or more people in my AO have good experiences. I could deal with finding the best load on a bolt gun, but for a semi auto I think most factory loads should perform at least marginally well. I can't start my next project till this is done, not sure what it will cost me to fix the situation. Oh now the wait for them to call me............

tirod
03-11-10, 09:57
I don't see the 1:10 twist as current spec for 6.8. Whether this has contributed to the issue using the listed ammo, maybe not. What it does reveal is that the vendor isn't keeping up and is using the Remington spec, not the industry developed improvement.

That reflects a lot on the internal commitment of their offering. It may have spilled over into the procurement and assembly of parts. Or, as happens with any mechanical vendor, the tolerances involved produced a fricking lemon. It does happen, no one on earth is immune.

It's not a 6.8 issue, it's a maker issue, and most don't want to do that to any customer. They do appreciate your business, they do know one bad reference affects ten other customers, and they do know about the internet.

I'm building my own 6.8, and the assembler better do a good job, or he's really going to get flamed here.

openbolt
03-11-10, 14:05
I put together a 12" SBR in 6.8 last winter and feel it's a great improvement over the 556. I have shot mine for a year now. I bought a used Noveske barrel with the old 1:10 twist but reamed the chamber it to SPECII.

Like others have posted it's not the cartridge, mine will shoot under an inch at 100 yds with optics.. though I rarely use them. Hopefully you will get a replacement upper in 6.8. I really feel that the round is a great improvement over the 556. Like anything new you will get it figured out if you are willing to invest the time. I reload all the ammo I fire through mine (so I can afford to shoot it). I hope you get your situation fixed.

BLACK LION
03-11-10, 15:02
1:10 twist416 Hammer Forged Machine Gun Grade Air Gauged Barrel

Who built the rifle?

There are people getting those 6" groups at 500-600yds with the 6.8x43.
I have seen a couple one hole groups @ 100 yds posted on 68forums.

Swapping for thier same rig in 5.56 wont solve the REAL problem.
They should fix it or give you your money back so you can put that money on a guaranteed shooter.
I suspect they told you to use Rem and Hdy factory loads becuase they are still pushing an "out of spec" barrel. As a dealer or Mfg. or what have you ...you cant push the 6.8 like its the best thing since sliced bread and not know what the desireable specs are or who SSA is. Not only that, things have come so far in the past couple of years that is makes no sense to offer a 6.8 and not know what the f--k is going on.

We can fix this.

IRONFINS
03-11-10, 18:10
They told me when I ordered the rifle it was a Spec II chamber. I just checked my paperwork and it says it is a suppose to be a 1:11, however their website says they are 1:10. It is the whole investing time thing that pisses me off. I want to be able to go out and zero it and then shoot it with good accuracy from the factory with the loads they recommended. I bought this for training and duty. So I can't shoot reloads in it anyway. The more I think about it I believe I might sell the whole gun, after speaking to a judge and a few attorneys who stated what I signed just means I can not sell it for profit. When I get it back, because we know they won't send me money even though they can, I am leaning towards a Noveske complete rifle. There is another officer at work who really is interested in it, and knows the problems I had with it. Sorry guys, I just don't have it in me to try another 6.8mm right now, maybe later. Piston or DI? It has to have a free floated rail, I like HBARs, nothing too heavy, it has to have a nice balance. I originally want an HK, but decided to buy the next best copy when I bought the 6.8mm, hope I didn't give the company away...........(ok ok I know some of you got it, that's why I asked for advice here, there are some very knowledgeable people on here).

majohnson
03-11-10, 20:34
I called the tech support when my rifle arrived, to confirm it was in fact a Spec II. They advised me that Spec II rifles have a 1-11 twist barrels.

So if yours is infact 1-10, could it be original spec barrel?

Stephen_H
03-11-10, 20:50
Spec II 6.8mm SPC carbines do not follow an official SAAMI print. TYPICALLY they include at least one of the following; longer leade in the throat area of the chamber, slower twist, fewer lands. In my 6 years of shooting 6.8mm SPC I have found the most important of the improvements to be the increased leade in the throat.

Does the carbine in question have a perm attached muzzle device? I have seen these screw up an otherwise accurate barrel.

Stephen

BLACK LION
03-11-10, 20:56
DI... unless you plan on running a sub 12" rig, supressed and shoot thousands of rounds a month.

IRONFINS
03-11-10, 23:32
It is a 16 inch barrel with a standard bird cage. The barrel is not stamped in front where most AR barrels are stamped with their twist rate so it is hard to tell, plus I sent it off yesterday. So what would be a AR in 5.56 in the $2000-$2500 range? I have looked at Noveske but have not shot one, I use to have a Colt LEO HBAR with the A-4 upper model during the Ban, I wasn't very impressed with the fit and finish. It was just average to me.

Bubba FAL
03-13-10, 01:39
Sorry to hear about your trouble with your rifle. I suspect the accuracy issue is the result of a damaged/malformed muzzle crown and am certain it is not due to the cartridge for which it is chambered.

Whether SAAMI vs. SPCII chamber or 1:10 vs. 1:11 twist, the 6.8 is more than capable of matching a 5.56 in accuracy. Both of mine give my 5.56 Service Rifle a run for it's money. One started out as a 1:10-6groove SAAMI-spec (since reamed to SPCII), while the other has a 1:11-4groove SPCII barrel.

I, too, would be highly suspect of a manufacturer that did not recommend SSA ammo for feeding a 6.8 as SSA have set the standard in this caliber.

Bob RI
03-14-10, 09:30
My 6.8 is slightly more accurate (sub moa with several loads) than my 5.56's (pretty much MOA) with me behind the trigger. I normally shoot SSA ammo or my own reloads. But I'm not realy into group sizes that much. I like the power to weight ratio of my 6.8 the accuracy is a bonus.

I have not tried the remington ammo which is supposedly underpowered. I don't think I'd knock the 6.8 based on one sample gun which appears to have issues. I can see why you would be upset though. I'd be interested to hear the response from the manufacturer.

IRONFINS
03-14-10, 10:41
It is hard not to be upset when you paid $1900.00 for a rifle that is suppose to be outstanding. That is $1900.00 on a department letterhead with the department pricing. So it was about $1000.00 cheaper than I could get from any local dealer with "their LEO discount". I also tried the Hornady 110 grain Vmax, and it did not perform any better. I checked Fedex and their website says it will be their tomorrow. So I will call and check at lunchtime. I could have bought two Colt 5.56s, kind of depressing when you think about it that way..........

Donbeeler49
03-14-10, 20:04
I'm sorry for all your heartache with the 6.8. My son-in -law has a Stag and it's very accurate, especially with him at the wheel. I've shot it several times and I can get three rounds in about a 4" circle at 200 yds and I'm an old man using his rifle that is sighted in for him. I'm left-handed and he's a righty. So hang in there and don't loose faith with the 6.8. Please let us know what happens in this continuing saga. Best of luck and I hope all goes well for you.:)

IRONFINS
03-17-10, 21:20
Well, they claim the shot "one ragged" hole with the rifle. They are shipping it back to me. I asked did you use irons sights, he said no a 4x ACOG, and shot off 2 sandbags. Said he shot SSA 115gr and Seller and Beliot 110gr. He said the Remington was not that good of ammo, and Hornady was hit or miss. They kinda acted like I just couldn't shoot or I bought crappy ammo. They offered to re-barrel it in 5.56mm for about $500.00. They told me since I shot about 75 rds through the rifle it was used and was no good to them. So I guess when they "test fire" it that doesn't make it used? I don't know how I feel about this. I do know that they said if I wasn't happy I could sell the gun. So I probably will just sell it. I am not sure how "accurate" the piston systems really are after shooting one. I think I'll go back to 5.56mm and use a good ballistic tip. Good news is my Dept. no longer is looking at the 6.8spc. This rifle was not a good example of its capabilities. Before the new year ammo was available at a couple of local gun stores, now they say it is all on back order. I think I'll sell this one and go back to a 5.56mm, like a Noveske or BCM, or maybe even a Knight......

fdxpilot
03-17-10, 21:59
Since it appears you will not be getting any satisfaction from the manufacturer, any chance you will name this fine firm?

30 cal slut
03-17-10, 22:07
if you guys don't mind me asking on this thread ...

have shooters come to a consensus as to who makes a DI 6.8 upper that would make it to the left side of The (5.56 mm) Chart?

K9222
03-17-10, 22:16
Since it appears you will not be getting any satisfaction from the manufacturer, any chance you will name this fine firm?

I would like to know as well just so I don't make the same mistake. I usually stay with the smae brands, ie: Noveske,BCM,COLT, and a few others. I have found I have not been disappointed with these guys. Just so you know I have a co-worker who owns a box-stock factory Noveske 6.8. Using SSA 115 grain he regularly shoots 1" @ 100 yards. Trust me hes not an expert shooter, or marksman, he just uses the fundamentals and does well. The gun can outshoot both of us all day long. I usally hover high or low of 1 moa with the same gun.

thmpr
03-17-10, 23:58
Intresting development going on with this post. My LWRC 6.8 rifle, older version (when they were LWRC), has a 1X10 twist that shoots the SSA combat load and reloads anywhere from 1.5 to sub-moa (reloads). It gives the same results with my 1X11 twist DI rifle. The pressure might be higher on the 1X10 twist setup but the accuracy is basically the same.

IRONFINS
03-18-10, 05:02
Since I really didn't get any help with the company I don't mind letting the cat out of the bag...........the company was..............

LWRC M6A2 6.8SPC

DocGKR
03-18-10, 11:49
This revelation is not at all surprising...

BLACK LION
03-18-10, 13:51
Since I really didn't get any help with the company I don't mind letting the cat out of the bag...........the company was..............

LWRC M6A2 6.8SPC

Fork me runnin...I should have know.
You should really look at the the thread on 68forums about this issue... Adam aka "marinesgt" had similar issue with similar unhappy results. He ended up getting something that sweetened the sour taste he had... Harrison took care of that I believe. Noveske or Addax can too, if it is a piston you seek.

I am going to attempt the impossible and dig up that thread.

BLACK LION
03-18-10, 13:53
This revelation is not at all surprising...

+1000

Gramps
03-18-10, 14:57
WOW! And it appears their uppers cost quite a bit more than Wilson's.

I've been thinking about a 6.8, but would have to separate from my M1A Bush to do it and that is being hard to separate with.

majohnson
03-18-10, 15:23
Ironfin,

From your stand point which seem to the biggest issue, the rifle or the 6.8 round itself.

It's just my curiosity, nothing more.

Gramps
03-18-10, 15:27
Dissing the 6.8 due to one bad rifle, is like dissing a high octane fuel because one motor was not built to handle it like another was. If that was the choice we would not have high octane race cars today because of a very misinformed judgment against one bad motor for good fuel.

BLACK LION
03-18-10, 16:24
Dissing the 6.8 due to one bad rifle, is like dissing a high octane fuel because one motor was not built to handle it like another was. If that was the choice we would not have high octane race cars today because of a very misinformed judgment against one bad motor for good fuel.

Cant argue with that!

IRONFINS
03-18-10, 20:19
It is not the 6.8spc, but you all know how frustrating it is to try a new thing and have a bad experience and not receive any good support from the manufacter that you dropped a load of cash to. I think I am more against the "piston and LWRC" then the 6.8spc. But I just don't want to fool with it now, maybe later on but right now I am discouraged and ready to settle on military rounds that are easy and cheaper to buy. My friend has a Bushmaster that was way cheaper that would shoot rings around the LWRC. Kinda sad.........

BLACK LION
03-19-10, 12:37
It is not the 6.8spc, but you all know how frustrating it is to try a new thing and have a bad experience and not receive any good support from the manufacter that you dropped a load of cash to. I think I am more against the "piston and LWRC" then the 6.8spc. But I just don't want to fool with it now, maybe later on but right now I am discouraged and ready to settle on military rounds that are easy and cheaper to buy. My friend has a Bushmaster that was way cheaper that would shoot rings around the LWRC. Kinda sad.........
Well, if you dont reload and dont have your ammo supplied to you then it can be more expensive to feed than 5.56 but then again, it is not the same caliber and IMO better wont be cheaper.
I think you got the wrong tour guide on your 6-8 venture....showed you all the wrong places and then dropped you off in a strange part of town and drove off with your wallet.
Maybe someone on the 68forum can figure out the issue(other than whats apparent)..There is a gentleman that goes by "Rcrandall"(??) on the forum that swears by his LWRCs and has posted his accuracy reports with his 8" psd and 14.5" sbr....
I dont know if you are going to keep it but if so, come over and let the guys help.
Maybe if you are still contemplating a 6.8, try a well built DI from Wilson Combat.

If 5.56 is calling why not look at a Daniel Defense XV M4...@950.00(I found one for my buddy at this price) it will "shoot circles" around most carbines from low end to high end. A CTR stock and MOE grip comes standard along with rear fixed BUIS....from the way it shoots I swear they come zeroed.

DocGKR
03-19-10, 15:13
There is probably nothing wrong with your lower--just sell or sideline the poor performing LWRCI upper and get a quality 5.56 mm 16" DI mid-length gas-system upper (BCM, DD, MSTN, Noveske, etc...) and some PMags.

Stephen_H
03-19-10, 15:54
I realize that I'm thought of as an LWRCi shill around here, but I'll throw this out there. You shot a less than 4 inch group with a carbine that was equipped with irons and then a 1X optic with a 4 MOA dot size. Have you tried the rifle with a magnified optic that has a more precise aiming point? What do you typically shoot your 5.56mm guns with irons or an Aimpoint attached at 100 yards?

When I shoot an Aimpoint equipped rifle at 100 yards even off the bench I'm usually pretty satisfied with 2 - 4 MOA. If I want to shoot for groups I attach an optic that is at least 4X. Even then, I find that most quality built semi-automatic carbines that aren't built specifically for accuracy are going to fall into the 2-3 MOA range with a 10X scope. To be perfectly frank, I don't think that you've given the carbine a fair evaluation of its potential accuracy.

Stephen

DocGKR
03-19-10, 18:09
Stephen's comments are indeed useful, as trying the rifle in a rest or off bags with a high power optic and appropriate target are a better test of the inherent accuracy, although I guess I missed something, as I thought the OP stated his groups were 6" at 100 and 4" at 75. I've seen a fair number of issued M4's shoot about 6 MOA w/M855 and a substantial number of issued M4's group around 4 MOA w/M855 when shot off the bench at 100.

Cold
03-19-10, 22:11
Lets not throw out the baby with the bath water. While your rifle may not have shot to your standards, there are more then enough posts and proof that the 6.8 is capable of MOA or better. I would not discount the ctg due to one experience. Noveske, WC, WOA, AR Performance, POF, RRA, STAG all offer 6.8 rifles that from what I have either seen, read or personally used, shoot better then your stated groups.

Good luck whichever route you take, we will be here to help if need be!

IRONFINS
03-20-10, 09:22
the aimpoint compm4 is the new one that takes 1 AA battery. It only comes in 2moa. The ar15 I shot that out performed the LWRC was a bushmaster carbine (I know it is not top tier, but it was all I could afford while in college) with an eo tech 552. Before I have shot only iron sights and shot good 2-3inch groups at 100 yards easy, with optics I can shoot much better, 1 inch or less, carbine or not. Hell a M1A that cost less than the LWRC will shoot sub moa at 100yds without optics from a rest with decent ammo. The whole point is I am not conveniced that its the 6.8spc fault. I feel that it is LWRC that is the problem. After spending $1900.00 for a paperweight that shoots like an AK-47 I am a little pissed. And as for the comment of I am not being fair to LWRC, if you like LWRC so much, send me what I paid for it, plus shipping, and I'll mail it to you to play with including the "targets" they are suppose to be sending me that shows it shoots one hole at 50 yards. BTW 50 yards is easy, but as you shoot farther away, if their is an problem with consistancy it will start to show the further out you shoot. Oh yea, I forgot one thing. The guy that is in charge of the Govt/Military/LEO accounts talked to me yesterday and said he would personally go shoot it with iron sights at the range and also included that target. He said "I will definitely call you today and let you know how it did." He must have found the problem that I did, because I talked to him at 10:00am yesterday and still haven't heard from them as of 9:15am today. Got to love their "customer service".

IRONFINS
03-20-10, 09:27
It just occurred to me, I don't think I mentioned those 4" at 75 yds and 6" at 100 yds, were the BEST groups it would shoot. If you average the groupings it would have been more like 5" at 75 and 8" at 100. I do appreciate everybody and their input in this matter. I think now I just want them to send me a check for my money back, or send me a decent rifle that I can sell and not do business with them again.

BLACK LION
03-20-10, 11:48
Stephen's comments are indeed useful, as trying the rifle in a rest or off bags with a high power optic and appropriate target are a better test of the inherent accuracy, although I guess I missed something, as I thought the OP stated his groups were 6" at 100 and 4" at 75. I've seen a fair number of issued M4's shoot about 6 MOA w/M855 and a substantial number of issued M4's group around 4 MOA w/M855 when shot off the bench at 100.

Yep, that is what I read in the OP.
He also stated he was using a bench, chair and caldwell rest.

IRONFINS
03-23-10, 18:36
Another guy from LWRC shot the rifle, using the iron sights for the first time in their testing and said it shot roughly 4 inches at 100 yards with premium SSA 115 grain ammo. It is still not the 2 inch of less they promised. He was going to shoot it with a scope this morning and get back with me, now they say he is out of the office at a conference or something. They are horrible about returning your calls when they say they are going to. I feel like they have had this rifle for long enough, just send me my money back. Now they have shot more rounds through it then I have, why would I want, to quote them, "a used gun back, what would we do with a used gun?" LWRC is not a great company to deal with in case anybody was wondering how their customer service is. :(

IRONFINS
04-02-10, 13:53
BTW they forgot to send me my owners manual, gun oil (SLP 2000), and Mag-pul MIAD kit back with the rifle. Also for the 1 ragged hole at 50 yds............they forgot it too. All the targets I got back were 2-4 inch groups at 50 yards. I guess Justin forgot to include his "1 ragged hole target". They suck, they are a bunch of liars. I would rather they start selling their sorry a** guns to our enemies that way our troops would be a lot safer. DO NOT BUY LWRC, unless you like over paying for your guns and you prefer that your 2800.00 rifle perform like a 500.00 AK, and when you have an issue you would prefer to have horrible customer service and be lied to.

40Arpent
04-02-10, 14:50
You might consider asking the admin to delete this thread...if you want to have any luck with your sales ad here. :D

AKsarben
04-04-10, 14:13
I had a Saiga AK-47 in .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO that shot a lot better than that! I put up an old Pizza Hut box at 100 yards after putting on a dot with magic marker. I was kind of curious how good the Remington factory 150 grain ammo was I bought at Dunhams for only $14.99. I belive it was pretty good ammo. 5 shots

http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/guns/Saiga308/308_saiga_rem150psp.jpg

It also shot groups of under 3/4" at 100 yards with various handloads as well.

My current 6.8 SPC, upper made by Rock River Arms and an Adams Arms Pistong system on it. All the rest, built by Vern *S* Total cost, under $1000.00 less the scope.

http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/guns/AR/6.8spc/RRA_6.8_SPCII-16.jpg

Group size? Does very very well for a piston rifle, as the AA piston free floats from the barrel and doesn't affect the harmonics of the barrel as much as some of the other piston designs.

http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/guns/targets/6.8spc/31,0gr_IMR8208_XBR-110sierra.jpg

Newer IMR 8208 XBR powder. Each square on the target is 1" x 1"

http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/guns/targets/6.8spc/30.0_8208xbr.jpg

http://vernsdidj.com/pictures/guns/targets/6.8spc/28.6gr_x-terminator_100gr_hornady.jpg

Not trying to rub in salt in a wound but THOSE are what you should see in a good 6.8 SPC rifle. It's every bit as accurate as any 5.56 I have ever shot. I have one brand new upper in .223 that I built that won't come close to this for accuracy, but I keep trying.

IRONFINS
04-04-10, 21:01
Those are all better than what they sent me that were shot at 50 yards. I will charge the camera and try to post some pictures of the groups they sent me tomorrow.

DocGKR
04-04-10, 21:29
Knock off the 3 rd "groups". Please shoot 10 rd groups if you are wanting to illustrate something...

AKsarben
04-04-10, 22:34
Maybe you could give me half credit for the top group shot with the .308. That was a 5 shot group, not 3 shot.

Bob RI
04-12-10, 07:23
On the first day out with my 6.8 I shot this 100 yard 8 shot group (1.29") using my lumpy range bag as a rest. Shots were roughly 1 second apart using a Titan Armory upper and SSA 110 Prohunters. Scope was a 1.5-4x (I think I had it on 3x). I can get 5 shot groups under an inch reliably with a sandbag rest and factory ammo. I'm not a "marksman" or really into "group size" I just shoot my new guns off the bags to see how they can do with various ammo combinations and after that I'm not festering over it too much unless I'm trying a new load. I'm very pleased with this upper, especially for the money which IIRC was under $700 with the Troy TRX Extreme rail.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/mika1962/011.jpg

Littlelebowski
05-22-10, 19:05
Whatever happened with this, IRONFINS?

IRONFINS
05-23-10, 09:25
I finally got the rifle back, however I had to call twice, to get my magazine and owners manual back. I ended up selling it for below dealer cost, and threw in some ammo I had left. More or less I gave it away. Last time I ever mess with a non-military caliber or piston driven gun. When you figure out they aren't for you, you can't give them away.

Molon
05-23-10, 22:50
I recently purchased a complete 6.8 SPC rifle from a well known manufacture, out of respect and a current ongoing case, I will NOT state which one it was. I was very excited to order a "piston-driven" AR in 5.56mm. When I called to purchase the rifle on a department letter head I was talked into a 6.8 SPC by a tech at their company. I was told it was "Just as accurate if not more, plus more knock down power." I was a little skeptical but having other 5.56mm it would help justify the new purchase. I read some online and several people praise the 6.8 SPC. So this problem is for them I guess. I started with Remington 115 grain MC rounds, shooting from a table and chair, using a Caldwell rest. Distance was an easy 100 yards. While for the most part I could hit the B-27 (human silhouette) after turning the sight aperture knobs some, I just could not get a consistent group. I was shooting 3 shot groups. I quickly stopped worrying about zero and started focusing on turning out a tight group. Most averaged roughly 6 inches at 100 yards. Best group was just under 4 inches when I moved up to 75 yards. I even tried using a brand new from an Aim-point Dealer that Aim-point personally recommended CompM4. Still, no better. I also tried Hornady 110 grain V max, groupings seem to get more consistently tighter, but still no better than slightly under 4 inches . . .


During my limited evaluation of the 6.8mm SPC cartridge, the first thing that I discovered was that the factory loaded 6.8mm SPC ammunition of the time left a lot to be desired. This included the Hornady 110 grain TAP/V-MAX loads and especially the Remington 115 FMJ load. After some preliminary hand-load development, the 6.8mm SPC demonstrated that while not as accurate as my precision 5.56mm rigs, it was more than accurate enough for its intended purpose.

My test vehicle at the time was a free-floated 16 Noveske Recon barrel with the original chamber and 1:10 twist. This barrel showed a definite preference for the 115 grain Sierra MatchKings. Accuracy testing was conducted from a concrete benchrest with the fore-end of the rifle resting in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest. The stock of the firearm rode in a Protektor rear bag. A Leupold Vari-X III with a mirage shade and the magnification set at 25X was used for sighting. The scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards. The wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was similar to that pictured below.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/xo4duzdgtp.jpg


Shooting from a distance of 100 yards and using the hand-loaded 115 grain Sierra MatchKings, the two best 10-shot groups fired from the Noveske barrel had extreme spreads of 0.81 and 0.87.



http://www.box.net/shared/static/jpy9vuijr5.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/0kpqaimev4.jpg



The best 10-shot groups fired from my 5.56mm AR-15 precision rigs from a distance of 100 yards hover just above 0.5 MOA.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/gos6vq3szi.jpg




Noveske 6.8mm SPC
http://www.box.net/shared/static/bg9pfe1ns9.jpg









As a side note, during my evaluation of the aftermarket ARES GSR-35 gas piston system for the AR-15, a free-floated Colt 16 M4 profile barrel showed a slight degradation in accuracy when using the piston system as compared to using the standard direct-impingement system. With the direct impingement system, three 10-shot groups were fired from 100 yards from my bench-rest set-up using match-grade hand-loaded ammunition. Those three groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of that composite group was 0.54.

After converting the Colt upper to the ARES GSR-35 piston system, three 10-shot groups were fired from 100 yards using the same match-grade ammunition. Those three groups were also over-layed on each other forming a 30-shot composite group that had a mean radius of 0.69.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/1aelmah032.jpg



GSR-35 installed on Colt upper with ARMS free-float rail
http://www.box.net/shared/static/fby4dcij9u.jpg

AKsarben
05-24-10, 07:29
BOTH of my 6.8 uppers, one a Rock River Arms 16" 1:10 twist SPC II chamber and my home built Bison 18" SS barrel 1:11 4 groove twist SPC II chamber have shot many times under 1" groups at 100 yards. The round seems to be inherently accurate enough, as a caliber. When the right combinations of bullets and powder loads are tuned to the rifle barrel, remarkable accuracy is attainable, especially since this is considered a battle rifle, and as such (combat rifle situation) it exceeds in that regards.

Littlelebowski
05-24-10, 08:28
When quoting "groups," I and I'm sure others would appreciate knowing exactly how many rounds went into said group.

Molon's superb post above used 10 shot groups and I think that should be the minimum standard to show what a rifle can do.

IRONFINS
05-24-10, 20:24
Right, which correct me if I am wrong, but those were all DI guns, right? Let's see the same with a piston LWRCi............

AKsarben
05-24-10, 23:00
Right, which correct me if I am wrong, but those were all DI guns, right? Let's see the same with a piston LWRCi............

I had an Adams Arms piston system on the RRA 16" (mid length gas) before I moved it over to the Bison Armory build 18" (mid lenght gas). Now I have the DI on the RRA, and piston on the Bison Armory barreled upper.

GPalmer
05-29-10, 20:05
Sounds like it's particular to that rifle. I have 5 6.8's in barrel lengths from 7.5" to 20" and all of them will shoot better groups than that without sand bags or scopes involved. They are all DI but I haven't heard of any really significant issues with piston accuracy, certainly not to the degree you mention. Sorry to hear about your experience.

IRONFINS
05-29-10, 21:01
Whatever they found wrong at the factory they wouldn't tell me but it shoots much better and using some better SSA ammo. All I know is that it didn't perform that way before I sent it back. Of course they are NOT going to admit their mistake. Their customer service sucks!

constructor
06-06-10, 21:28
I talked to a marketing VP at Remington a few weeks ago about the 6.8. He told me a side I had not heard before in that they spent a huge amount of money developing 6.8 ammo and in the first year or 2 they saw no return and it became a real sore spot with stock holders. He said they all just wanted it to go away to be forgotten about. I explained how well the 6.8 was doing now and asked if he would be interested in taking another look at the ammo production.
He said the Freedom group now owns Barnes so they could easily load any Barnes bullet and they made small primer brass at one time so they still have the dies to do so. Originally they were getting 2800fps but when the mil said they had to meet max pressure requirements at 150 degrees things did not go so well so they had to drop charges until they met that requirement. If they get back into the game lets hope they dribble a few extra grains in the case.

ccoker
06-07-10, 09:46
I had a long chat with a guy that was very involved with Remington, was the marketing director for like 15 years and has moved on to do his own thing (still in the gun industry doing marketing) and the 6.8 came up.. very interesting discussion

BSHNT2015
06-13-10, 11:29
Lots of info here to digest. I like the 6.8, hopefully LWRCi will get their act together, Freedom Group will not abandon the 6.8 market,
and if they do others will take their place.

jeffy351
06-23-10, 12:34
It's not the caliber.Mine is sub moa.

AKsarben
06-23-10, 14:39
Whatever they found wrong at the factory they wouldn't tell me but it shoots much better and using some better SSA ammo. All I know is that it didn't perform that way before I sent it back. Of course they are NOT going to admit their mistake. Their customer service sucks!

Wonder if the barrel needed breaking in? After a few rounds the bolt starts mating well with the lugs, the circular rings left from the reamer used to bring the bore of the barrel to dimension, got smoothed out, and the crown may have had a bit of a burr or other that finally smoothed out. Each barrel is unique unto itself.

Pappabear
06-25-11, 11:08
Sounds like the gun sucked. Pure and simple. One thing to consider, always try a couple of different magnified optics. I went through hell and back with my LMT MWS. Only to find a decent optic (Nikon monarch) had a reticle walking all over the paper. Changed to my 4x ACOG and my vertical stringing issue went away. After about 4 trips to range and 100 rounds or so..

Like you OP, the time invested and money spent on good ammo drove me ****in nuts. Even for an LWRC, it should shoot better than 5 inch groups. Makes you wonder, what else. I know the gun is gone now, so this feedback is for the next guy!

jimmyp
06-26-11, 15:14
4 inch 5 shot groups is my AK with an Aimpoint at 100 using cheap MilSurp amminition. If you getting 4 inch 5 shot groups with your upper like the man said, it simply sucks. Send it back or get rid of it no matter what caliber it is. You can phuck with it until the cows come home its your nickle. Me it would be gone.

rsilvers
06-26-11, 17:45
LWRC tested it and said it shot one ragged hole.

jimmyp
06-26-11, 20:44
:smile:

rsilvers
06-26-11, 21:20
Well, they claim the shot "one ragged" hole with the rifle. They are shipping it back to me. I asked did you use irons sights, he said no a 4x ACOG, and shot off 2 sandbags

If the goal is to test rifle accuracy, a medium or high power scope should be used.


Another guy from LWRC shot the rifle, using the iron sights for the first time in their testing and said it shot roughly 4 inches at 100 yards with premium SSA 115 grain ammo. It is still not the 2 inch of less they promised.

Seems like a Top Shot contest if irons are used, rather than a verification of the rifle's capability.

As someone reading this thread, there are a few facts in evidence: Rifle owner says that with iron sights, the rifle shoots 4-6 inches. LWRC says that with iron sights, it shoots 4 inches. Ok - that is nothing unusual. I can't necessarily shoot better than 4 inches with an M4 and iron sights with factory ammo.

LWRC did a test with a 4x scope, and reported "one ragged hole." Owner has no test data with a 4x or higher scope.

Based on what I have read, I see no reason to assume there is anything wrong with the rifle - as the only test with a 4x or more optic gave good results. I betcha it is a 1.5 MOA or better rifle with me shooting it, using a scope.