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ParkisMaximus
07-14-10, 19:21
i barely see anything posted about rugers. i have a ruger sr9 and love the gun. its very comfortable shooting and pretty darn accurate.

is there something i dont know that i should about rugers??

Business_Casual
07-14-10, 19:37
:jester:

Yeah right?

B_C

Omega Man
07-14-10, 19:37
How long have you had your SR9?

ParkisMaximus
07-14-10, 19:42
ive had it for abut 2 weeks now, but ive been shooting one for a couple of months. ive been shooting an sr9c though, i wouldnt believe there is that much of a difference.

C4IGrant
07-14-10, 19:45
i barely see anything posted about rugers. i have a ruger sr9 and love the gun. its very comfortable shooting and pretty darn accurate.

is there something i dont know that i should about rugers??

I am sure it is fine for shooting dirt.


I would not use it for anything serious.


C4

Omega Man
07-14-10, 19:46
I have no experience with Ruger pistols, but i dry fired an SR9 in a gun shop. Pretty bad trigger.

ParkisMaximus
07-14-10, 19:58
I have no experience with Ruger pistols, but i dry fired an SR9 in a gun shop. Pretty bad trigger.

bad trigger as in good or terrible?

ruger recalled alot of SR9s for the trigger, mag release and if dropped on the rear of the gun it might go off. im not sure of the recall date but mine is post recall.

JHC
07-14-10, 20:03
It is not a pistol which has been widely adopted by LE or military forces and long tested in high volume. Therefore, it is highly suspect compared to Glocks, M&Ps, HKs etc.

Keep shooting it and report back how it runs. Enjoy. All shootin' is good shootin.

ParkisMaximus
07-14-10, 20:05
im about to put alot of rounds through it saturday. i def will let yall know.

John_Wayne777
07-14-10, 20:37
Ruger handguns are fairly popular in my area among those who aren't really serious about handguns.

My experience with Ruger semi-autos has been mixed. Their rimfire semi-autos are very, very good guns especially for the money. Their centerfire autos are more of a mixed bag. Guns like the P89 and P90 have sold for a long time and have even been adopted by a very limited number of police departments. Although bulky, the P90 has some pretty hardcore fans. The guns were nothing to write home about, but all that I tried worked. They were bulky and awkward, had poor triggers...but they went bang.

The polymer guns were a bit of a different story. A friend of mine purchased one in 9mm that developed some serious issues. I believe it was a P95. While shooting it I noticed that the gun had a dangerously light single-action trigger...and a couple of rounds into the mag it went full auto on me. After the second trip back to Ruger he got rid of the gun...replacing it with a Taurus, believe it or not. :fie:

Ruger has revamped their handgun line in the last couple of years and the SR9 is a new design along the lines of the Glock and M&P...but Ruger is new to striker-fired handguns and their record on polymer handguns in general hasn't been stellar. I'd personally advise sticking with known quantities like the M&P or the Glock.

dvdlpzus
07-14-10, 21:08
I have very limited experience with the SR9. In fact, I have only shot it 5-10 times and the trigger was very uncomfortable for me. The ergos are nice and the pistol shoots nice. I would need to shoot it more often and maybe then the trigger problem starts to fade away.

Can you do the 2,000 round challenge?

ParkisMaximus
07-14-10, 21:17
I have very limited experience with the SR9. In fact, I have only shot it 5-10 times and the trigger was very uncomfortable for me. The ergos are nice and the pistol shoots nice. I would need to shoot it more often and maybe then the trigger problem starts to fade away.

Can you do the 2,000 round challenge?

it looks like i will try it. since i dont see to many ruger sr9 owners on here.

im thinking about buying ghost inc's ultimate trigger bar. its a drop in and changes the trigger pull to 3.5lbs.

should i attempt the 2000 rnd challenge before or after the trigger bar replacement?

Avenger29
07-14-10, 21:21
Ruger Revolvers- awesome. Love my Security Six, want to pick up an SP101 and an LCR soon.

Ruger .22s- awesome. Own a Ruger Mk III 22/45.

Ruger centerfire autos...not so much. Some are OK at best (I'd rather have one than a Taurus, that's for sure). However, holster, sights, etc, aftermarket support isn't great. Believe it or not, I'm most favorable towards the LCP right now but wouldn't give the other autos a second look.

dvdlpzus
07-14-10, 21:44
I would say do one before and after to also test the reliability with the connector. Let me know how it feels with the connector so I can relay this information to my peer. I was thinking of selling my P85 and P89 to get either an SR9 or a P07 Duty just for range use.

ParkisMaximus
07-14-10, 21:47
well i just ordered the trigger bar for 29 bucks from ghost inc. they have them for glocks also.

i just dry fired mine and the trigger didnt seem bad at all. i guess im just used to a 92fs from the army. thats all we usually fire.

hopefully i get the trigger bar before this weekend so i can start the 2000rnd challenge. if not i guess ill start it sometime later next week.

NCPatrolAR
07-15-10, 00:26
I handled several different SR-9s and all of them had horrible triggers on them. They are probably better than a Hi-Point though. ;)

MarshallDodge
07-15-10, 00:31
After shooting a P89 years ago and thinking what a huge gun for a cartridge like 9mm, I was very interested in the SR9. Not for me necessarily, but for the folks out their that wanted a good option in the Taurus price range.

I have yet to be able to actually shoot an SR9, all dryfire up to this point. The triggers are typical "lawyer resistant" Ruger triggers. I was talking to a guy we shoot with once in a while recently that had picked one up for his wife and he said that they had to send it back to Ruger three times and Ruger finally sent them a P series to replace it. It tarnished my image of the gun but I would still like to know how they hold up.

opmike
07-15-10, 01:14
I have an old P89 packed in oil that doesn't get shot much at all these days. However, I'm not going to sell it as it was a gift and one of my first handguns. It has a high sentimental value for me, and they have very poor resale value, so...

I'll give my take on things. All of the follow will be about the P89 as that's the one I have the most first hand experience with.

If memory serves correct, I had 8,000-9,000 rounds through it without a malfunction. It's currently on its second firing pin after the first one broke during a dry fire session. I have an ungodly amount of dry fires on that gun, no idea of the amount. I consider mine to be a very reliable firearm, and I haven't heard reports of anyone else having major reliability issues with the P series. Functionally, I think the P series are solid, however, I acknowledge I'm dealing with a small sample size.

With that said:

In double action, the trigger is VERY heavy with noticeable stacking towards the end of the pull. Single action has a lot of pre-travel, about twice as long as a 92FS. The break is heavy and the overtravel excessive.

Ergonomics for my hands are poor. If you notice in photographs, the underside of the trigger guard slopes downward towards the front strap. This asinine design choice makes getting a high grip difficult as a lot a pressure gets exerted on your middle finger when trying to do so.

They have a slide mounted safety. Unlike the 92, you can't simply roll your thumb downward to disengage it, you have to rotate your thumb upwards. Like all slide mounted safety designs, I would prefer them instead to be spring loaded de-cockers.

The grip itself is rather slick and could benefit from some texturing/checkering. However, it's not nearly as bad as the Astroglide grip of the early P95/P97.

The magazine release is not depressed, but is pushed forward. For some people, this may be an issue, however I've not experienced any problems switching between it and the traditional button on other designs. The motion with your thumb is quite similar between the two.

They are heavy and bulky. I don't have the dimensions off hand, but they are bricks. The bore axis is rather high, but they are not "flippy" during recoil.

These are just my views on things. I'd definitely trust my life to my P89 as I trust its reliability. However, my other handguns simply do everything else better.

I've noticed them for sale locally for pretty cheap. I'd have no problem recommending one for someone who needed a "beater(s)" or someone who couldn't afford to spend over 300 on a pistol.

THCDDM4
07-15-10, 17:27
Go check my report on the 2,000 round challenge regarding my Ruger P95. It is a brick, not pretty, ugly even; but it is beautiful to me since it has gone a rediculous # of rounds with just a new magazine spring and an occasional cleaning/lube job. My security six has 80,00000 rounds plus from being carried/used by my grandpa, my father and now me; it is my go to gun; it goes bang 6 times no matter what, nothing more, nothing less.

You'll find lot's of anti-ruger people out there since Ruger himself was a dick and helped all the anti-gunners out, back in the day; and I agree what an idiot Ruger was for biting the hand that feeds him and halping to further the anti-gun bullshit agenda.

I know plenty of people who shoot SERIOUSLY, and all of them have 2 things in common, Glock and Ruger; they all have a G19 and either a secuirty six, speed six, sp100, gp100, SR9, P95, or a P345; the other thing they have in common is all of those guns listed have perfomred like absolute champs (The SR9 is the bitch of the bunch though as it was just bought by someone and not yet tested to it's full limits; it has perfomed flawlessly thus far though...).

I have tried pretty hard to kill one of my P95DC's; and I cannot. Even after all the abuse and wear she has taken I shot her with (300) L7A1 rounds in one sitting (I know, I KNOW; dumb as hell to shoot that round out of this pistol; but I am TRYING TO KILL IT!) and it just kept puking them out the barrel like a frat boy the day after the homecoming game.

Made in America; lifetime warranty, good customer service (So far they have been good to me; haven't had to deal with them much though; and nothing too big).

The bad part is this...
Ruger; like 99% of manufacturers out there rush their ****ing products to the market so fast that they have massive recalls like they did with the SR9 trigger pack, and the LCR/LCP problems; also the SR556 problems, and so on (Glcok is notorious for this shit as well as many ohters manufacturers). They need to get the guns right before they sell them; and until they do; they are not a "top tier" manufacturer in my opinion; but they are a manufacturer of a few "gems" in the gun world, and shouldn't be discounted to the likes of taurus or the others.

Also Ruger makes it hard to buy aftermarket parts for anything other than their 10/22. If you want a new barrel for your P95 or SR9; you have to buy it direct from the factory; lame!



I would stick to these ruger weapons with supreme confidence:
-Security Six
-Speed Six
-P95
-P89
-P345
-MKII .22


I would stay away from the others; the SR9 & Alaskan being a bit of a compromise for the moment; as I haven't had much time with them, and I need to see more of either in action to define my opinion of each. DO NOT BUY AN SR556; I have heard nothing but bad about them, and the only time I shot one, the piston system was all f'd up and it wouldn't cycle worth a crap:eek:.

I saw a pretty convincing "gun TEsts" report (Not sure how accurate they are on range/weapons reporting, but I have heard they are somewhat respectable...) on the P95; it blew the HK USP 9 the XD 9 and the glock 19 out of the water over 1,000's of rounds in an endurance/accuracy/strength test.

Some tank divisions in IRaq have been issued the P95 DC as it beat out the HK XD and G19 in some endurance tests and won over some support from the army. I think 5,000 were adopted.

I know of several police officers who carry P95's, P89's SR 9's and P345's every day as their primary defensive weapon. They all love them and have had zero issues.

I have heard the "grab bag" reports of you may get a good'un or a bad'un; but I have yet to see this in real life; and I have (3) P95DC's; (1) Security Six, a 10/22, a red-label 20 gauge and an MK-II.

The DA trigger is a beast out of the box, but after dry-firing (Thats how I do most of my prcaticing anyways, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire, dry fire , dry fire!!!!! and continue, continue, continue, continue,etc...!) and a small bit o polishing; it is a thing of beauty.
My security six has the most crisp perfect trigger I have ever had the pleasure to pull; it is really just perfect for me. People offer to buy it off me once they shoot it and feel how graceful the trigger is; I would NEVER SELL IT; the kids are getting it and giving it to their kids, and so on...

The DA trigger is the biggest problem I hear about from potential operators; why not just polish it up and dry fire it until it is perfect for you; or buy a spring pack to lessen the pull?

It's weird/funny to me, I have had nothing but good luck with Rugers, and bad luck with glocks (I would carry a wrist rocket over a glock for SD; no offense to Glocks or their operators, they just seem to hate me for some reason?). I have some friends that have had nothing but bad luck with Rugers and good luck with GLock; so really it is 6 of one, 1/2 a dozen of the other. I don't think youc an say, buy a "__" (Insert any manufacturer) and it will be 100% no matter what; you have to find what works for you and what is accurate/reliable in your hands.
No amount of testing done by whoever expert or whoever army or LEO blah blah blah can make up for real world application in your hands; try everything out and see what fits best for YOU.

Oh yeah did I mention I bought both my P95 DC's for under $250.00 brand new in the box with (2) 15 round mags? (The other was a christmas gift). Thats pretty darn good considering it beat out guns that are 4X's that cost in endurance/strength tests (If I find the test I am reffering to, I will post it here later).

ParkisMaximus
07-15-10, 22:52
ive already noticed its hard to find aftermarket parts for her. i found the trigger bar reset but thats about it. im lookin forward to puttin rounds through her and seein how she takes it.

ritepath
07-15-10, 23:26
I love my P89, accurate, doesn't jam a load of fun to shoot. 17 years and counting it has never failed. Kind of like my MKII...

I'm going to look into the LCP this weekend at a gun show....it's either that or a AK pistol for my Jeep.


Yeah don't be skeert of the Ruger brand...there's a lot worse pistols out there.

Of course my M&P is my EDC...

Lucky Strike
07-16-10, 00:10
I don't have any experience with Ruger semi-auto's but I have a couple of their revolvers and really like them.

My GP100 is currently being worked on by Teddy Jacobson and I'm very anxious to get it back.....his work on my 642 was really good and I know you can do a lot more with a GP100 trigger then a J Frame (which are fairly hard to work on).

John_Wayne777
07-16-10, 07:53
You'll find lot's of anti-ruger people out there since Ruger himself was a dick and helped all the anti-gunners out, back in the day; and I agree what an idiot Ruger was for biting the hand that feeds him and halping to further the anti-gun bullshit agenda.


My personal distaste for Ruger's centerfire Semi-autos has nothing to do with Bill Ruger and everything to do with what I've observed personally from Ruger pistols, FWIW.



I know plenty of people who shoot SERIOUSLY, and all of them have 2 things in common, Glock and Ruger


I'm blessed to know lots of the people behind the screen names here as well as some other places...and I can't say that Ruger appears in their battery of serious use weapons very often.

I'm also familiar with "Gun Tests" magazine and in all honesty that's of extremely limited utility as far a useful data about a purchase. If we're to discuss "beating out" other guns in tests, it would be fair to bring in all the contract testing where Glock/S&W/H&K and a host of others have handily stomped Ruger's submissions.

Ruger's revolvers are pretty good and their rimfire autos are fantastic...but for centerfire semi-autos I think it's safe to contend that the picture isn't quite so rosy.

Business_Casual
07-16-10, 10:19
I think JW777 hits an important point - the vast majority of their revenue comes from three rimfires and one is a rifle. Can they make a decent pistol? Probably, but why bother with also-rans when all the holsters and mags on the shelf are for the major guns? That's called a clue.

B_C

THCDDM4
07-16-10, 11:03
JW777:
Can you PM me the links to the tests you are referringt to, or just post them here if you prefer? I would like to see the results. I wasn't sure of Gun tests reputation; but the test they did seemed pretty convincing as it was presented. I have tried very hard to find more tests/actual real world stats and findings involving rugers centerfire pistols as I find them to be so accurate and reliable for such a low cost; I am very interested in how they actually hold up to the major names. I would love to see some real mean testing done to them to know how good or bad they really are. My P95's are just so nice to me, and run smoother/more reliable than any other pistol I own (XD 9, M&P 9, CZ 75, HK USP 9); the P95 is my go to on that list because of how it has performed for me versus the other pistols. I would love to know if I got (3) fluke P95's that are amazing and the rest out there are crap; or if they are truly decent guns when put through the paces as I have observed.

Thanks in advance for the info.

John_Wayne777
07-16-10, 13:29
JW777:
Can you PM me the links to the tests you are referringt to, or just post them here if you prefer? I would like to see the results.


...then you are probably going to need either a badge or a FOIA request to get at the actual data of the testing done by large law enforcement agencies. Generally that sort of information isn't readily accessible on the internet.

THCDDM4
07-16-10, 13:37
...then you are probably going to need either a badge or a FOIA request to get at the actual data of the testing done by large law enforcement agencies. Generally that sort of information isn't readily accessible on the internet.

Well, I don't have a badge, can you point me in the right direction of the agencies I should make the requests to? The FBI? Or local agencies? If I am asking to much I understand; just let me know. I am eager to see the testing/data though. I can't find one test that is negative towards the P-series rugers; but those are internet tests that I don't know the reputation of the testers ; and I only know a few personal friends that I truly trust to do a proper test and qualify the findings properly/unbiased.

Thanks again for th einfo JW777; I appreciate it.

Skintop911
07-16-10, 13:43
Ruger P-series semi-auto pistols are reliable but not durable, suitable for light sport/recreational/hobby use only. Others who have pressed them into harder service have found several common issues and vulnerabilities within short periods of service.

Not unserviceable guns, and good values on the used market. Not size efficient. Not a hard-use gun.

THCDDM4
07-16-10, 13:56
Ruger P-series semi-auto pistols are reliable but not durable, suitable for light sport/recreational/hobby use only. Others who have pressed them into harder service have found several common issues and vulnerabilities within short periods of service.

Not unserviceable guns, and good values on the used market. Not size efficient. Not a hard-use gun.

Can you list the issues and vulnerabilities here please? I am very interested...

Jerm
07-16-10, 14:18
I wasn't sure of Gun tests reputation...

Based on my one free issue(that I fought with them over for about 6 months when they tried to collect for a subscription :nono:)...

It was overpriced.

I still get the emails and have been less than impressed with them(those that I've read) as well.

Skintop911
07-16-10, 15:03
Can you list the issues and vulnerabilities here please? I am very interested...

Off the top of my head, watch your mag catches, ejectors, safety/decock levers, link pin.

opmike
07-16-10, 15:54
Ruger P-series semi-auto pistols are reliable but not durable, suitable for light sport/recreational/hobby use only. Others who have pressed them into harder service have found several common issues and vulnerabilities within short periods of service.

Can you elaborate on this?

THCDDM4
07-16-10, 16:48
Off the top of my head, watch your mag catches, ejectors, safety/decock levers, link pin.

Can you elaborate as to what the specific problem is with those parts? Can you direct me to resoures or real life situations that support your assertion that those parts are necessary to "wacth" for?

Are they flawed in design, functionality, manufacturing, materials, etc...

What should I "watch" for in those sepcific parts? Just to be aware if/when they break? To look for specific indications of there weakness'?

THCDDM4
07-16-10, 16:57
I want some hard data here, not just conjecture and anecdotal evidence. I know how my persoanl Rugers have handled and I want to see some real tests and data/findings that supports the claims on here of them being inferior and why that is. If someone asks me my opinion on Olympic arms, I don't tell them that they are crap, don't use it, they are like _ manufacturer quality, they are not mil-spec., etc.... I show them hard data to support the fact that they are crap rifles. I would love to see the data on the rugers be it positive or negative; I would love to know either way.
I feel sort of like I am second guessing myself since I have a XD, CZ, HK and have owned glocks and none of them stack up to my P95's. I ain't no fan boy, if the evidence is there I will accept it, for what it is; but I have yet to see any hard data, just anecdotal claims. I would love to see the data so I can stop carrying it if it really isn't the gun I have found it to be in my personal experience. The HK USP 9 is my second favorite and then the CZ; not too keen on the XD, no ability to cock one handed if I lose a limb. If my Ruger really is an inferior gun I would love to know so I could carry my HK instead as my primary.
Thanks.

Skintop911
07-16-10, 17:04
Can you elaborate as to what the specific problem is with those parts? Can you direct me to resoures or real life situations that support your assertion that those parts are necessary to "wacth" for?

Same answer that JW777 gave you. You can reach out to agencies that issued or authorized them in number, or talk to Ruger CS people.

If you attend the Ruger ACs, they also identify those parts as common maintenance items.

My assertion is based on observed failures, and the experience of two larger user groups and their guns. (100+ units each)

Over the years, others have posted information in AARs and the like with essentially the same infromation.


Are they flawed in design, functionality, manufacturing, materials, etc...

I'll have to defer to a metallurgist or an engineer for that.


What should I "watch" for in those sepcific parts? Just to be aware if/when they break? To look for specific indications of there weakness'?

Watch for all the usual things you would in interacting parts. Resistance, travel, movement (desired or otherwise), signs of anomalous same, and more visible things like excess wear, breakage, cracking, etc.

I'd have to dig my armorers manuals and maintenance docs out for more detail than that.

Inuvik
07-16-10, 19:25
I have had a stainless P-95 for a few years now and I have really tried to love it, but it just has not happened. My survey (size of one) resulted in disappointment.

Out of the box, it had about 1 FTF per mag and took forever to break in and shed that habit. The trigger is heavy, and I just don't shoot it well at all compared to just about everything else I own.

bigkracka
07-16-10, 19:39
Myself and a LEO friend of mine both have Ruger LCRs and LOVE them! Outstanding carry guns, far exceed a current J frame with that stinkin malfunction prone lock.

varoadking
07-16-10, 21:15
Ruger makes wonderful rimfire pistols and rifles...

Other than that, Ruger makes wonderful rimfire pistols and rifles...

silentsod
07-16-10, 21:29
Myself and a LEO friend of mine both have Ruger LCRs and LOVE them! Outstanding carry guns, far exceed a current J frame with that stinkin malfunction prone lock.

For what it's worth removing the internal lock on S&W revolvers is cake and there are tutorials to be found online.

R Moran
07-17-10, 19:01
Some tank divisions in IRaq have been issued the P95 DC as it beat out the HK XD and G19 in some endurance tests and won over some support from the army. I think 5,000 were adopted.



Where did you get that bit of silliness??


Which Tank divisions? Pretty sure we called them Armor divisions when I was in.

What happened, was the command responsible for purchasing weapons for the US Army,.....Automotive, Tank and Armament Command, or something close to that, purchased Rugers, along with numerous other 9mm's for foreign military assistance, and issue to indigenous personnel. Not US troops.
(my specifics are probably off, but that's the gist of it)

No US Military troops are carrying Rugers as a duty weapon.

You're obviously a Ruger fanboy, and that's cool, but...

The only Rugers I've ever seen in a police holster, were cops who had to purchase their own weapons with no guide lines, and were to cheap to pony up $398 for a Glock. Oh, and Massad Ayoob's dept. up in NH, how many of them are there?

I know of no major, winning competitors in any discipline, outside of a rimfire one, that is using, let alone winning with, a Ruger.

I know of no major LE purchase's, fed, local or otherwise.

There are multiple SME here, who have said they have issues, I'll just take their word for it.

As for "gun tests", they have to be the worst of them. If you read there magazine long enough, eventually you will see them contradict themselves, either in their judging criteria, their pics, or what have you.
One month a gun will suck, a few months later it wins the test.
Their criteria is usually subjective, and of a sample of one. And, cost mitigates everything to them.
Maybe they have changed in the years since I stopped looking at them.

Either way, there is much better info right here.

Bob

THCDDM4
07-19-10, 10:37
Thanks for th einfo skintop 1911, I'll check into them and see what I find out.

Rmoran:
Thanks for the laughter; also thanks for the relevant info as well. I'm not a fan boy; call me whatever you please I couldn't care less, I just want to make certain I'm carrying the correct weapon, and if not; I will carry another in my arsenal. As I stated in my past posts, in my [U]persoanl[U] findings, my RUger beat out all my other options as stated. If I am carrying the wrong pistol and relying on a pistol that isn't as good as I have perceived it to be, I will carry one of my others; prolly the HK as it is damn fine, I just happen to prefer my Ruger at the moment with my experience with it. I appreciate the info, but the name calling is unecessary. If I was a fan boy I would be making rediclous arguments, I am trying to find the CORRECT info I need to make an informed decision. Tank division VS. Armorer division; I'm, not in the army, I read in an army publication (Have no idea which one at all now???) that 5,000 Iraqi (YEs I know it isn't US troops) troops were issued P-95's, thats all I said, and from your opining, it seems to be true. I never said "US TROOPS WERE ISSUED THE P-95" now did I? So take it easy buddy.

R Moran
07-19-10, 11:30
THC,

- Ok, "tank divisions in Iraq" is vague enough to maintain plausible deniability.;) But, unless you specify another country, most would assume you meant American. I'm unaware of any other Armor in country, of any significant size.

- Fanboy, isn't always name calling. We're all fanboys to some extent. Your happy with your Rugers, and you had some long posts as to why, with what I would call some ridiculous reasoning.

- You are from from unarmed with your Rugers, you'll be better armed with your HK, though.

- I wasn't in the army, I was in the Army.

Bob

John_Wayne777
07-19-10, 11:58
I want some hard data here, not just conjecture and anecdotal evidence. I know how my persoanl Rugers have handled and I want to see some real tests and data/findings that supports the claims on here of them being inferior and why that is.


The first bit of hard data is to look around at what police departments in the United States issue as sidearms for their officers. You will not find a long list of departments issuing Ruger automatics. That is, in and of itself, a big clue.

If you want the test data underlying those decisions...good luck. As I said earlier, you're going to have to contact individual departments who conducted trials where Ruger participated and lost. There are some documents available on the military's M9 trials where Ruger lost...and sued. Collecting that data is going to be extremely difficult because police departments are not inclined to give out that sort of information. In some cases they may be barred from doing so because there may be proprietary information involved.

You're more than welcome to give it a go, but don't expect to get a lot of return on the effort.



I would love to see the data on the rugers be it positive or negative; I would love to know either way.


Believe it or not, it is not necessary to have every technical detail laid out in a spreadsheet to make a decent judgment. That exists for the M4 because there's an actual TDP out there for the M4 contract. No such TDP exists across the board for handguns to allow for a base comparison.



I feel sort of like I am second guessing myself since I have a XD, CZ, HK and have owned glocks and none of them stack up to my P95's.


Well XD's and CZ's aren't exactly redefining the top of the pistol market.

In what way did your H&K not "stack up" to your P95? What does "stack up" even mean? What sort of malfunctions was it experiencing? How many rounds did you have through the pistol? How many rounds do you have through the P95? How much documentation have you done on either weapon?



I ain't no fan boy, if the evidence is there I will accept it, for what it is; but I have yet to see any hard data, just anecdotal claims.


The fact that Ruger semi-autos are not found in the holsters of any police department that actually conducts independent trials for contract guns is not, in fact, an "anecdotal claim"...it's simply the truth. Also true is that there are a host of reasons underlying that reality. Those reasons may not be easily laid out in a spreadsheet in a convincing form for the guy who really wants to think the best of his Rugers, but that doesn't mean that they are any less real.

Generally when a pistol has practically no representation in the police market it means that there are problems with reliability, durability, or support of the weapon (possibly all three) that make it unattractive to police departments even though it may come in at an attractive price.



If my Ruger really is an inferior gun I would love to know so I could carry my HK instead as my primary.
Thanks.

It's an inferior gun.

Note that the overwhelming majority of people who are most likely to have to use a handgun to actually shoot people do not...I repeat, do not...pack Ruger semi-autos. Note that you don't see a lot of aftermarket support for Ruger semi-autos in terms of sights, lasers, lights, holsters, etc.

These things are all great big clues.

There is nothing comparable to TDP quality data out there for handguns because that kind of technical information is considered proprietary and is zealously guarded by gun companies. Heck, the vast majority of them won't even release information about when you're supposed to change out a damn recoil spring in a weapon because they're worried that somebody else will advertise a spring that lasts longer if they do. So if you're using the data we have on AR's as a basis for the sort of data that we should be able to cough up to prove to your satisfaction that a particular handgun sucks, it's an irrational expectation because the same caliber of data does not exist. Nobody can tell you that Ruger uses X steel alloy in their barrels which is markedly inferior to the proprietary alloy used by H&K in their pistol barrels because of specific rockwell ratings on each barrel, tolerances for the manufacture of each barrel...etc.

They can, however, tell you that H&K's barrel steel is, in fact, a proprietary alloy and that every H&K barrel that leaves the factory must first survive a proof load. They can tell you that H&K makes every part used in the assembly of their weapons in house, and that they test fire their weapons and maintain an aggressive quality control standard at all points during the production of their guns.

...and that's part of the reason why they cost twice what a Ruger does.

Ruger revolvers are decent...not my favorites, but decent weapons that seem to work. Their rimfire pistols are exceptionally good. Their 10/22 is a fantastic little rifle.

Their centerfire semi-auto handguns, on the other hand, are not in the same league as other options on the market. When Ruger starts winning contracts with the LAPD, the FBI, DHS, the ATF, NYPD...then perhaps it will be time to reconsider. Until then, they are what they are:

Guns you use when you can't afford to use something better. It's better than a sharp stick, and specific examples may work pretty well, but that's not the same league as guns that have survived rigorous testing procedures and mass issue in the tens of thousands with excellent performance.

Frankly I'm getting a little bit tired of having to make the same bloody argument over and over and over and over again in this forum.

THCDDM4
07-19-10, 12:16
The first bit of hard data is to look around at what police departments in the United States issue as sidearms for their officers. You will not find a long list of departments issuing Ruger automatics. That is, in and of itself, a big clue.

If you want the test data underlying those decisions...good luck. As I said earlier, you're going to have to contact individual departments who conducted trials where Ruger participated and lost. There are some documents available on the military's M9 trials where Ruger lost...and sued. Collecting that data is going to be extremely difficult because police departments are not inclined to give out that sort of information. In some cases they may be barred from doing so because there may be proprietary information involved.

You're more than welcome to give it a go, but don't expect to get a lot of return on the effort.



Believe it or not, it is not necessary to have every technical detail laid out in a spreadsheet to make a decent judgment. That exists for the M4 because there's an actual TDP out there for the M4 contract. No such TDP exists across the board for handguns to allow for a base comparison.



Well XD's and CZ's aren't exactly redefining the top of the pistol market.

In what way did your H&K not "stack up" to your P95? What does "stack up" even mean? What sort of malfunctions was it experiencing? How many rounds did you have through the pistol? How many rounds do you have through the P95? How much documentation have you done on either weapon?



The fact that Ruger semi-autos are not found in the holsters of any police department that actually conducts independent trials for contract guns is not, in fact, an "anecdotal claim"...it's simply the truth. Also true is that there are a host of reasons underlying that reality. Those reasons may not be easily laid out in a spreadsheet in a convincing form for the guy who really wants to think the best of his Rugers, but that doesn't mean that they are any less real.

Generally when a pistol has practically no representation in the police market it means that there are problems with reliability, durability, or support of the weapon (possibly all three) that make it unattractive to police departments even though it may come in at an attractive price.



It's an inferior gun.

Note that the overwhelming majority of people who are most likely to have to use a handgun to actually shoot people do not...I repeat, do not...pack Ruger semi-autos. Note that you don't see a lot of aftermarket support for Ruger semi-autos in terms of sights, lasers, lights, holsters, etc.

These things are all great big clues.

There is nothing comparable to TDP quality data out there for handguns because that kind of technical information is considered proprietary and is zealously guarded by gun companies. Heck, the vast majority of them won't even release information about when you're supposed to change out a damn recoil spring in a weapon because they're worried that somebody else will advertise a spring that lasts longer if they do. So if you're using the data we have on AR's as a basis for the sort of data that we should be able to cough up to prove to your satisfaction that a particular handgun sucks, it's an irrational expectation because the same caliber of data does not exist. Nobody can tell you that Ruger uses X steel alloy in their barrels which is markedly inferior to the proprietary alloy used by H&K in their pistol barrels because of specific rockwell ratings on each barrel, tolerances for the manufacture of each barrel...etc.

They can, however, tell you that H&K's barrel steel is, in fact, a proprietary alloy and that every H&K barrel that leaves the factory must first survive a proof load. They can tell you that H&K makes every part used in the assembly of their weapons in house, and that they test fire their weapons and maintain an aggressive quality control standard at all points during the production of their guns.

...and that's part of the reason why they cost twice what a Ruger does.

Ruger revolvers are decent...not my favorites, but decent weapons that seem to work. Their rimfire pistols are exceptionally good. Their 10/22 is a fantastic little rifle.

Their centerfire semi-auto handguns, on the other hand, are not in the same league as other options on the market. When Ruger starts winning contracts with the LAPD, the FBI, DHS, the ATF, NYPD...then perhaps it will be time to reconsider. Until then, they are what they are:

Guns you use when you can't afford to use something better. It's better than a sharp stick, and specific examples may work pretty well, but that's not the same league as guns that have survived rigorous testing procedures and mass issue in the tens of thousands with excellent performance.

Frankly I'm getting a little bit tired of having to make the same bloody argument over and over and over and over again in this forum.

Thanks for the info; I really appreciate it; sorry you are getting tired of reapeating it. The specific problems I have had with my HK USP 9 DA/SA (Variant 3 I believe; but I cannot remeber for sure?): I shoot all the same ammo in both, shoot both pretty much the same amount at the range each weekend, and the HK has had 5X's more problems than the ruger: FTF's, FTE's, even 1 squib (Thankfully I noticed) all the same ammo being everything I can find to make sure the pistol shoots everything I may have to shoot if needed. The HK hates specific HP's, but is pretty good with any FMJ; I polished the feed ramps a biut and th issue declined but didn't dissappear totally.

I've shot both (Really 3 P95's; 1 P95 shot quite a bit, 1 mildly and one just to break in) over 10,000 rounds.

I guess I'll have to start figuring out my HK problems and get it running better to carry; it just seems counter intuitive to what I have learned over the years as a consumer/gun enthusiast; name brnads mean not much, but performance means the world.
I'll try and dig up some info from LE agencies and if I do I will post here (IF I am allowed to?); but I guess I'll take your word for it, and yeah I agree if LE agencies aren't adopting it; there is more than likely a reason (Especially when it is so cheap, they would be hard pressed not to adopt if it were up to snuff and a lower price) as to the exact quality/durability of the weapon.

Thanks for the insight JW777; I'll have to do some hard research and see what; if any data I can find.

Out of all my personal 9mm's other than my P95's; which would you carry, and why?
-HK USP 9
-CZ 75
-XD 9
-M&P 9

John_Wayne777
07-19-10, 12:52
and the HK has had 5X's more problems than the ruger: FTF's, FTE's, even 1 squib (Thankfully I noticed) all the same ammo being everything I can find to make sure the pistol shoots everything I may have to shoot if needed. The HK hates specific HP's, but is pretty good with any FMJ; I polished the feed ramps a biut and th issue declined but didn't dissappear totally.


Did you buy the gun new or used? Either way, I'd send it back to H&K with a detailed list of the problems you've encountered and have them fix it. I'd also suggest looking at your magazines...are they factory magazines? Do the springs need to be replaced? The USP should be running better than that.



I guess I'll have to start figuring out my HK problems and get it running better to carry;


If you have an H&K that doesn't work and a Ruger that does, carrying the H&K would be foolish. The point I'm making here is that in aggregate, the H&K is going to be the superior weapon...meaning if we had 10,000 H&K's on the table and 10,000 Rugers on the table and we fired 25,000 rounds through each of those 20,000 guns, when it was over the H&K's will rack up a much lower rate of problems than the Rugers did. In those piles there will still be H&K's with problems and probably some Rugers that didn't have problems.



it just seems counter intuitive to what I have learned over the years as a consumer/gun enthusiast; name brnads mean not much, but performance means the world.


Name brands are indeed overrated, but there are some differences. It's best to consider platforms on their own merits rather than the brand name. As a platform, the USP series of pistols, despite being ergonomically less than ideal, tends to be reliable and durable over the long haul.

The trouble comes from samples of 1. 1 gun does not tell the tale of an entire line of pistols. With limited sample sizes you can get very skewed results. If you have a P95 that has almost 10K through it that hasn't choked ever and an H&K that has 10K through it where it perpetually pukes, you have the exception and not the rule.



I'll try and dig up some info from LE agencies and if I do I will post here (IF I am allowed to?);


IF you can get actual data from actual LE tests or data used to award contracts for sidearms at LE agencies, you're absolutely more than welcome to post it here. We'd welcome it.

It's just highly unlikely that you'll get it.



Out of all my personal 9mm's other than my P95's; which would you carry, and why?
-HK USP 9
-CZ 75
-XD 9
-M&P 9

Carry the one that works. The fact that the H&K is made of better metal and generally has a better reputation doesn't mean much when you end up with one of the lemons that every gun manufacturer puts out. Try to get the H&K fixed. If you can't get it fixed, unload that bitch and buy a gun that works.

Of the list you gave which is the most likely to do well for you given that your USP is problematic? The M&P.

JohnN
07-19-10, 12:56
For cryin' out loud, if you have had good luck with your P-95 use it. Why do you need validation from others unless you don't value your own opinion. What's the point in continuing to argue for the P-95 I think it has become clear that there is no love for Ruger centerfire handguns on this forum. Why beat a dead horse.

THCDDM4
07-19-10, 13:05
Just to clarify;
I am not a guy "Trying to think the best of his rugers" I am a guy trying to justify carrying a pistol that I have PERSONALLY SEEN more problems with over my P95 which happens to have shown ME the best performance of all the handguns I own. Just the opposite I am a guy trying to think less of my P95's, and more of the other weapons I own that have given me a higher rate of failure in my persoanl experience. I enjoy offerings from pretty much all gun manufacturers (Glocks don't like me though???); I'm not a specific "Fan boy" of any one; I have more respect for some than others as they handle their business better, but I don't "follow" any one manufacturer; I have guns from just about every major manufacturer out there, and a few small scale custom shops as well.
After hearing reasons why my P95 may not be my best choice for carry and/or SD; I want to make sure I am carrying the right pistol; I have to find a basis for this decision, not just that some guy on the internet told me so. No disrespect to anyone, but save the fan boy shit for someone who is defending the company wihtout cause or fact to justify a purchase; I am trying to decide which of my pistols is best to carry so I can save my ass if needed. I am not trying to justify anything except my best chances at survival and the best tool for the job be it Ruger, S&W, HK, A chiquita bananna, a spyderco or a lousiville slugger. If my HK is underperforming and I can bring it up to snuff to make it my best choice for carry, I would love to; admitadly I am not an expert on much of anything other than growing a garden, brewing beer and making wine; so I am absorbing as much info here as I can to be more proffiscient with all my weapons, and make the most/best informed choice of what to carry.

Thank you to everyone who is providing this info; I truly appreciate it.

THCDDM4
07-19-10, 13:07
For cryin' out loud, if you have had good luck with your P-95 use it. Why do you need validation from others unless you don't value your own opinion. What's the point in continuing to argue for the P-95 I think it has become clear that there is no love for Ruger centerfire handguns on this forum. Why beat a dead horse.

Good point, I understand what you are saying. I am just trying to have the best SD gun in my arsenal at my side; not trying to beat a dead horse. If I am mistaken as to which pistol is my best choice, I would like to know; it may save my, or someone else's life someday...

THCDDM4
07-19-10, 13:12
Did you buy the gun new or used? Either way, I'd send it back to H&K with a detailed list of the problems you've encountered and have them fix it. I'd also suggest looking at your magazines...are they factory magazines? Do the springs need to be replaced? The USP should be running better than that.



If you have an H&K that doesn't work and a Ruger that does, carrying the H&K would be foolish. The point I'm making here is that in aggregate, the H&K is going to be the superior weapon...meaning if we had 10,000 H&K's on the table and 10,000 Rugers on the table and we fired 25,000 rounds through each of those 20,000 guns, when it was over the H&K's will rack up a much lower rate of problems than the Rugers did. In those piles there will still be H&K's with problems and probably some Rugers that didn't have problems.



Name brands are indeed overrated, but there are some differences. It's best to consider platforms on their own merits rather than the brand name. As a platform, the USP series of pistols, despite being ergonomically less than ideal, tends to be reliable and durable over the long haul.

The trouble comes from samples of 1. 1 gun does not tell the tale of an entire line of pistols. With limited sample sizes you can get very skewed results. If you have a P95 that has almost 10K through it that hasn't choked ever and an H&K that has 10K through it where it perpetually pukes, you have the exception and not the rule.



IF you can get actual data from actual LE tests or data used to award contracts for sidearms at LE agencies, you're absolutely more than welcome to post it here. We'd welcome it.

It's just highly unlikely that you'll get it.



Carry the one that works. The fact that the H&K is made of better metal and generally has a better reputation doesn't mean much when you end up with one of the lemons that every gun manufacturer puts out. Try to get the H&K fixed. If you can't get it fixed, unload that bitch and buy a gun that works.

Of the list you gave which is the most likely to do well for you given that your USP is problematic? The M&P.

Right on; I gottcha. Thanks for the input. I'll send the HK back and see if I can get it running 100%. (All factory mags, I bought it new, I have kept a log of all the problems at the range; I'll send it along witht he pistol to HK; thanks)

Thanks again for the info and all.
Take it easy everybody.

DarwinsLilHelper
07-19-10, 14:43
I think gritty is the most over used word on pistol forums.

The fact is. every major pistol manufacturer that's put out a new polymer design in the last decade. Has put some form of "lawyer proof" trigger on it. LEM, DAK, SafeAction, QuickAction. They all feel like...

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9931/42486782398c3e32c36a.jpg


In the old days people who were serious about their firearms used to sort of take it for granted, that they were going to have to rework or install a new trigger on their 1911 or S&W or Colt Revolver. Now days everybody thinks they ought to have a national match grade trigger right out of the box on a $385.00 pistol?

While the old guys that could properly stone a S&W revolver action are a fast dying breed. Almost anybody with even rudimentary skills can rework the triggers of most popular polymer handguns with after market trigger kits.

This is the link to the guys that make the SR-9 kit

http://www.ghostinc.com/

Bing Bang...$30 to $40 bucks...Problem solved.

I think we get so involved in gun board coolness, that running down every new design for "gritty" trigger or not being made of solid bar stock unobtainuim and Tennifer'ed in a 87 rockwell flat dark earth coating that would survive 25 yards from the epicenter of a nuclear blast...That we risk sometimes not seeing the next enduring 1911, Hi-power or Glock design coming down the road...Because we are blinded by our own gun forum tacticoolness.

Ding Dong the wicked Bill is dead...Get over it. Ruger's fixing a lot of their problems. I might even check out this new Mini-14 with the heavier barrel.

6933
07-19-10, 15:10
Please tell us how Ruger is fixing their problems.

DarwinsLilHelper
07-19-10, 16:06
As I said...Bill is dead. Get over it.

I don't think the SR-9 is a particularly bad design in it's price class.

I don't care much for the lastest crop of Ruger .45's. They're still the bulky, clumsy, Clydesdale's in world of sleek Stallions Ruger .45's always were.

Bill croaked and they finally got around to putting a heavy barrel on the Mini-14, Which quite suddenly changes the character and accuracy of that long running gun industry joke. Now if they'd offer a parkerized version in a Choate fixed offhand stock, they'd pretty much have the indestructible American Kalishnakov.

Ruger's offering hi-cap mags now...although a bit pricey.

Ruger's offering tactical versions of the M-77. Mauser Bolt. Whats not to like there?

Did you know Smith & Wesson once had a contract with the Mexican Government back in the 1890's....Should I still hate them 100+ years later for that.? You see. Thats my point here. Some of us are so firmly entrenched in our little politically correct gun board mantra's and dogma's that we miss it when companies change. In our rush to post Ruger/Smith & Wesson/Glock/Ect...Sucks.

John_Wayne777
07-19-10, 16:46
I don't think the overwhelming majority of us give a tinker's cuss what Bill Ruger did or didn't do while he was alive any more than we care what the old ownership of S&W did with Bill Clinton.

The fact that Bill Ruger went to the great beyond doesn't mean that the company's centerfire auto-pistols are any better than they were. The SR9 may be great...or it may be awful. Until there are more of them out there seeing heavy use it's impossible to tell which. Meanwhile we do have a pretty good idea how 9mm Glocks or M&P's will perform for the average buyer.

The success of the M&P demonstrates nicely, in my view, that people aren't closed to new and improved...they just have to see that something is actually improved before they buy it.

Avenger29
07-19-10, 16:56
As I said...Bill is dead. Get over it.

I don't think the SR-9 is a particularly bad design in it's price class.

I don't care much for the lastest crop of Ruger .45's. They're still the bulky, clumsy, Clydesdale's in world of sleek Stallions Ruger .45's always were.

Bill croaked and they finally got around to putting a heavy barrel on the Mini-14, Which quite suddenly changes the character and accuracy of that long running gun industry joke. Now if they'd offer a parkerized version in a Choate fixed offhand stock, they'd pretty much have the indestructible American Kalishnakov.

Ruger's offering hi-cap mags now...although a bit pricey.

Ruger's offering tactical versions of the M-77. Mauser Bolt. Whats not to like there?

Did you know Smith & Wesson once had a contract with the Mexican Government back in the 1890's....Should I still hate them 100+ years later for that.? You see. Thats my point here. Some of us are so firmly entrenched in our little politically correct gun board mantra's and dogma's that we miss it when companies change. In our rush to post Ruger/Smith & Wesson/Glock/Ect...Sucks.

I don't think you get it. Most of us don't have a problem with Ruger because of that dead dude named Bill.

The Mini 14 design has exhibited long term reliability/durability problems. Calling it the "American Kalashnikov" is stupid. Everyone acts like the Minis are indestructible because they look like an M-14, are made by Ruger, and have a gas piston. This is not true when it comes down to brass tacks.

M4C isn't like every other firearms board where anytime Ruger is mentioned some idiot pops up to rant about Bill. So, don't get on here and post like it is.

DarwinsLilHelper
07-19-10, 17:54
Johnwayne

The success of the M&P demonstrates nicely, in my view, that people aren't closed to new and improved...they just have to see that something is actually improved before they buy it.

I'd agree that the S&W M&P is an excellent example of that which we speak.

But I also think the new S&W SD is going to be a perfect example of the close minded, rote regurgitation of gun board dogma of which I also spoke.

In fact this whole "Ten Zillion round Proven Weapon" thing has become something of a gun board dogma of it's own. To hear some of you recite the "But they've thrown Glock's out of helicopters" thing over and over again in every new gun thread. You'd think that companies like Ruger or S&W drew the design in crayon, on a Big Chief Tablet, slapped the new design together. Took it to the range. Fired two rounds out of the thing. One for the fired casing requirement and the other as the entire product testing regimen...and then started throwing 'em in the boxes and shipping them.

(Ok so I'm pretty sure FN/Browning's done exactly that a couple of times, but thats another thread. John's Dead to and there's no one left to mind the store.)

I'm willing to bet there's a lot more torture testing that goes on at Ruger and Smith & Wesson than most of you would give credit for in what seems to be a constant gun board arms race to prove how middle aged crazy they are, because they drive a new Corvette or Ferrari and shoot H&K or Nighthawk...Everything else is offal for the unwashed commoners.

(Am I talking about anyone here. No. Have I seen quite a bit of Tacticool middle age crazy elsewhere on the internet. Yes. So try not to jump up and protect the honor of the site, just to be the first poster to attack the new guy, over an observation about the rest of the gun internet.)

Skintop911
07-19-10, 20:25
Deep breath, guys.

Many folks here got their start in full-size centerfire handguns with a P-series. They have been cheap, plentiful, and serviceable for the majority of folks. (Remember that majority is gun owners, not shooters.)

They are what they are though. Kept in their sporting/recreational role, they will provide a lifetime of enjoyment. If you own a Ruger and it meets your needs, enjoy it. Shoot well! If you need something to go the distance, shout out and we'll help you get there without condescension and ego-free.

JonInWA
07-20-10, 17:22
While I generally prefer Glocks for use and carry, I am pleased with my late-production (2007) P89. The P85/P89 was massively overbuilt for the JSSAP XM10 tests-which is passed, but which the Beretta more importantly didn't fail-hence the Beretta M9 remained the DoD contracted sidearm (at least for most general issue). The bulk is mostly in the slide's dimensions. As mentioned by an earlier poster, the angle and positioning of the lower triggerguard's bow is a bit of an acquired taste, and can be a bit irritating during extended firing sessions until you're used to it.

I've actually found the P89's ergonomics to be fairly good. The grip is significantly improved by substituting a set of Craig Spegel-designed Uncle Mikes'/Butler Creek rubber grips (they're discontinued, but fairly easily found), or with a set of Hogue grips. The sights, while not state of the art, are decent and well regulated for center-hold POA/POI.

I believe that the centerfire metal framed guns were built to a forecasted/contractural lifespan of 40K rounds-but their ruggedness and durability is far beyond that, particularly in the case of the P85/P89 and P90.

Noted organizational users "in the day" were the Israeli Air Force, Wisconsin Highway Patrol, and I believe the San Diego, CA PD.

In my sample size of 1, I've found my P89's triggerpull to be smooth, crisp (particularly in the SA mode) and quite accurate. While I don't question the overall excellence of the HK P30, I've found my DA/SA needs nicely met with my P89. That said, I'd be the first to admit that the P30 has better overall (and specific component) ergonomics, and probably possesses superior metallurgy. However, for my needs and uses, the HK's superiority is incrimental, and not worth the investment for the likely derived gain to be had-but that's regarding me, not necessarily anyone else (and, like I mentioned previously, my defensive sidearm of choice is likely to be a Glock).

I'm a bit more skeptical about the subsequent and current production Ruger P-Series pistols. I'm hard-pressed to find a rationale for getting a SR9, since a Glock is available at comparable pricing, especially if one takes advantage of the Glock Homeland Defender LEO/military pricing, or achieves essentially the same via membership with GSSF and taking advantage of the GSSF membership discount. Glocks, particularly the G17 and G19 in 9mm are well fielded, and considered to be pretty much the "gold standard" for a utility combat defensive pistol, while the jury is very much still out on the Ruger SR9s, particularly after a rocky start (but, in fairness, Glock has had some memorable hiccups in its earlier history as well).

Given limited resources, I'd go with a Glock. Given more unconstrained resources, I'd probably still go with a Glock, but a HK P30 would be a very strong and tempting contender. Given a P89 or P90, I'd hardly feel under-armed, or in need of immediate replacement. Ultimately, I think that the key is to make an intelligent, objective, individually applicable "best fit" choice, and then buckling down and seriously practicing with it.

Best, Jon

Skyyr
07-20-10, 17:27
I shot an SR9 this weekend and, surprisingly, it was well-balanced and actually out-shot most of the other guns I've handled in it's price range. It had a very smooth recoil pulse and was accurate enough to place an entire magazine within a 4" at 15yds during my first time shooting it.

Slide-mounted safety, decocker, good capacity... for $400 (that's the premise), it's a great gun. Now, are there better guns? Of course. But it was surprising how well it did compared to its cost. I'll stick with my H&K's and Sigs, but I'd also have no problem recommending one to a new shooter with limited funds.

Skintop911
07-20-10, 17:35
Noted organizational users "in the day" were the Israeli Air Force, Wisconsin Highway Patrol, and I believe the San Diego, CA PD.

Don't forget Federal BOP.

cathellsk
07-20-10, 17:44
I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and we have Rugers in service, among other brands too.

All are DAO models, and I've seen/used/heard of P89, P93, P94, and P95 models.

My institution uses the P89DAO with some P95DAO that suppliment the firing line during Annual Training when we do weapons quals. I recently made Firearms Instructor but am still waiting to go to school.

I will say, without hesitation, that these things are TANKS! Virtually no one likes them, including me, and I own my own so I can shoot on my own time to be better proficient with it since we only shoot once a year unless there is an Armed Escort Class. But as much as the "shooters" at my joint bitch about them we have to admit they run and run and run all the time. The only problems we ever have are barrel links wearing out (which I've only seen once myself) but we have a good supply of replacements from Brownells to fix those that do.

For my work I rely on them when needed and feel completely confident they will get the job done. But if I had my choice they would be gone in a heartbeat and replaced with Gen4 Glock 19s with night sights (our Rugers have standard sights).

Just wanted to throw my $.02 out there and will answer any question anyone has.......

Omega Man
07-20-10, 17:44
I shot an SR9 this weekend and, surprisingly, it was well-balanced and actually out-shot most of the other guns I've handled in it's price range. It had a very smooth recoil pulse and was accurate enough to place an entire magazine within a 4" at 15yds during my first time shooting it.

Slide-mounted safety, decocker, good capacity... for $400 (that's the premise), it's a great gun. Now, are there better guns? Of course. But it was surprising how well it did compared to its cost. I'll stick with my H&K's and Sigs, but I'd also have no problem recommending one to a new shooter with limited funds.

How did the trigger feel, compared to a Glock?

JonInWA
07-20-10, 17:54
I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and we have Rugers in service, among other brands too.

All are DAO models, and I've seen/used/heard of P89, P93, P94, and P95 models.

My institution uses the P89DAO with some P95DAO that suppliment the firing line during Annual Training when we do weapons quals. I recently made Firearms Instructor but am still waiting to go to school.

I will say, without hesitation, that these things are TANKS! Virtually no one likes them, including me, and I own my own so I can shoot on my own time to be better proficient with it since we only shoot once a year unless there is an Armed Escort Class. But as much as the "shooters" at my joint bitch about them we have to admit they run and run and run all the time. The only problems we ever have are barrel links wearing out (which I've only seen once myself) but we have a good supply of replacements from Brownells to fix those that do.

For my work I rely on them when needed and feel completely confident they will get the job done. But if I had my choice they would be gone in a heartbeat and replaced with Gen4 Glock 19s with night sights (our Rugers have standard sights).

Just wanted to throw my $.02 out there and will answer any question anyone has.......

I believe that the BOP contract (and the link wear issue at high round counts) was one of the key reasons that in mid-production Ruger converted the P944 (the .40 version of the P94) from the swinging link system to the subsequently designed camblock system. It's the system employed from the get-go on the P95, P97, and all subsequent P-Series guns.

Best, Jon

arizonaranchman
07-21-10, 17:45
I love their single-action revolvers. Have several and have carried them alot. Their double-actions are OK and I would use one, just never have - I've leaned towards my 4" M629 S&W for so long I've found no need to go with anything else.

Their autos I've never liked at all (except the .22 rimfire auto pistol which is a true classic). Their big semi-autos are just too blocky/bulky and rough in the trigger, etc.

Having said that I wouldn't doubt their autos are tough as hell and built to take quite a beating. Like everything Ruger makes, they're probably very reliable and simple guns. I've not used them much at all, but this is based on Ruger's reputation which I've grown to respect - great guns, tough as hell, just not pretty and they get the job done.

THCDDM4
07-22-10, 11:39
I put in a large amount of requests for information to a bunch of different places to try and get some more info on the P-series Rugers, a better idea of the specs involved and maybe if I'm lucky some endurance test results; when I do I will be sure to post it here.

FYI: the SR9 trigger is nice and smooth, maybe a bit rougher than most glocks I have handled, but much, much better than most stock ruger pistol triggers; much crisper and lighter. I always polish a new pistols trigger after I sufficiently break in the gun anyways, so triggers aren't much of an issue with me out of the box; any trigger on any gun I buy will need to be tinkered with (My DDM4 excluded, as it was just right for ME out of the box); I like my triggers a very specific way.

THCDDM4
07-22-10, 13:50
Here is the first and only reply to my requests so far:

Thank you for using the Ruger On-Line Customer Support Request Form.

This e-mail is in response to your question or comment of 07/21/2010
Request No: 67261

Comment / question:

Need some info on the P95:

1) What is the barrel steel?
2) What are other major components composed of?
3) What testing do you do; eg MPI, HPT, etc...?
4) Do you have any edurance test results available? Either from Ruger or a govt.
entity?
5) Which parts have you found to be problematic?
6) What Govt. tests have you submitted it for?
7) Any info regarding the P95 and it's durability, manufacturing, and endurance
would be appreciated.
I own 3 and want to know more about them. THANKS!

Response:
1) The barrel is stainless steel 4-10. 2) The slide is stainless steel 4-10,
and the frame is made of a glass filled nylon polymer. 3&4) We run a gamut of
internal test. Test results are proprietary. 5) None, and if you should ever
experience a problem with your firearm please contact us. 6&7) This would also
be proprietary information.

If you should need further assistance please call our Service Department at
928/778-6555 between 8:00 - 4:00, Monday thru Friday, at a time convenient for
you. A Ruger Representative will be happy to help you.

If you need further information, please visit our website at www.ruger.com or
contact us at:

Revolvers, shotguns, rifles, 10/22 Charger Pistol: (603) 865-2442
Pistols: (928) 778-6555
Serial Number History Information: (603) 865-2424

Please note: This e-mail is sent from a notification-only address that cannot
accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

Sincerely,
Ruger Firearms


Very little real info I know, but at least we know the barrel and slide steel so far. How do they stack up quality wise versus the others? I thought most barrels and slides were made from different materials (but never put too much thought into it?); is this common to be of the same grade steel?

Here are the properties of 410 stainless:

Carbon 0.15 max
Chromium 11.5 - 13.5
Iron Balance
Manganese 1 max
Phosphorus 0.04 max
Silicon 1 max
Sulphur 0.03 max

This is the same steel used on the BCM 16" 410 SS Barrel.

Link to BCM barrel & Info:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-11-5-Stainless-Barrel-IONBOND-BLACK-p/bcm%20ss410%2011-7%20ib%20bk.htm

The HK USP utilizes 416 stainless steel; which is just a bit more sulphur added; it is argueable that 410 is a higher grade than 416 SS; 416 SS is less resistant to corrosion & fatigue:

"Grade 416 has the highest machinability of any stainless steel, at about 85% of that of a free-machining carbon steel. As for most other free-machining stainless steels the improvement in machinability is achieved by addition of sulphur which forms manganese sulphide inclusions; this sulphur addition also lowers the corrosion resistance and formability to below that of its non-free machining equivalent Grade 410.


Grade 416 is sometimes used in the unhardened or hardened and highly tempered condition because of its low cost and ready machinability."

Above quote was taken from AZOM.com (http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=971)



So which is better for a barrel and/or slide and why; or are they equivalent for all intensive purposes?

THCDDM4
07-22-10, 14:45
http://www.schuemann.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=66qvYywiHmo%3D&tabid=67&mid=445

More info on 416 SS barrel application pro's and con's.

Some info from BCM here on M4 concerning the 410 SS Vs. 416 SS:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=35014

Skyyr
07-22-10, 17:17
How did the trigger feel, compared to a Glock?

I've actually never shot a Glock. I dislike striker-fired guns without safeties and think they're a liability in general. I know some will disagree with me - that's just my opinion.

The closest thing I could compare it to is an FNP/FNX. Somewhat spongy, but consistent throughout the pull.

THCDDM4
07-23-10, 15:12
Anyone wanna chime in about the barrel/slide steel; now that we have a small bit'o real info no one wants to play anymore?

DarwinsLilHelper
07-23-10, 21:59
THCDDM4

Anyone wanna chime in about the barrel/slide steel; now that we have a small bit'o real info no one wants to play anymore?

It's not that no one wants to play. It's that no one thinks the difference between 416 and 410 makes the slightest bit of difference in a handgun slide or handgun barrel.

Barrels and slides don't fail because of 00.1 grams of sulfur content difference in a pound of steel. Barrels and slides fail because someone loaded something into the barrel, Knowingly or unknowingly, that had no business being there.

silentsod
07-24-10, 01:50
As above; barrel steel does not constitute an entire weapon platform.

I believe most people on this board are interested in hedging their bets, and if you're already carrying a gun you might as well make it one which is widely adopted and whose issues are well documented and understood while at the same time durable and reliable.

varoadking
07-24-10, 20:52
I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and we have Rugers in service, among other brands too.

All are DAO models, and I've seen/used/heard of P89, P93, P94, and P95 models.

My institution uses the P89DAO with some P95DAO that suppliment the firing line during Annual Training when we do weapons quals. I recently made Firearms Instructor but am still waiting to go to school.

I will say, without hesitation, that these things are TANKS! Virtually no one likes them, including me, and I own my own so I can shoot on my own time to be better proficient with it since we only shoot once a year unless there is an Armed Escort Class. But as much as the "shooters" at my joint bitch about them we have to admit they run and run and run all the time. The only problems we ever have are barrel links wearing out (which I've only seen once myself) but we have a good supply of replacements from Brownells to fix those that do.

For my work I rely on them when needed and feel completely confident they will get the job done. But if I had my choice they would be gone in a heartbeat and replaced with Gen4 Glock 19s with night sights (our Rugers have standard sights).

Just wanted to throw my $.02 out there and will answer any question anyone has.......

Y'all shoot once a year and have experienced barrel bushing failures?

Yikes...

.45fmjoe
07-24-10, 22:09
The lead firearms instructor in my academy asked us on day one who brought a Glock. 13 People raised their hands. Then he asked who brought an M&P. Three people, myself included, raised our hands. He asked who brought a Sig and one guy raised his hand. That left one person who had not raised his hand. He asked him, "what did you bring?" He responded, "a Ruger P95." The instructor told him that's great, since we are shooting at a range near the water him bringing a boat anchor would be very convenient. ;)

cathellsk
07-24-10, 22:40
Y'all shoot once a year and have experienced barrel bushing failures?

Yikes...

Not barrel bushings, barrel links, and not like your thinking. These pistols are shot on average (I'm guessing here, as some get alot more like I said when an Armed Escort Class is given) close to 200rds. each on qualification day for roughly 8 weeks. No cleaning until training is over. We don't have barrel link breakage every time. Like I said, I know of only one personally but I'm sure there are more but its not an epidemic every year thing. We've also had these pistols since maybe the mid '90s too. They're tough, but I'd still dump them for the ergos alone just to have Glocks. :)

Edited due to my faulty math....

John_Wayne777
07-25-10, 00:50
Anyone wanna chime in about the barrel/slide steel; now that we have a small bit'o real info no one wants to play anymore?

Ok...first kudos on actually getting some information from Ruger.

Now: What qualifications do you think might be required to intelligently discuss the merits/drawbacks of the steel materials listed? Do you have said qualifications?

If there are engineers and metalurgists in the house who have experience in that realm then I'm certainly all ears...but short of that it's rather difficult to have an intelligent argument about barrel steels.

The most important word in your post was: Proprietary. Arguments about barrel steels are fine and dandy...but of much greater benefit is testing that shows how the guns function and perform. A lot of what you'd like to know you simply won't be able to find out because nobody in the handgun business is keen to share that kind of information.

Good on you for trying to get it...but don't take the information you do get out of context.

Buckshot TX
07-25-10, 21:27
I'm a full-time gunsmith (doesn't make me the reigning expert, I just see a lot of broken guns). I hardly ever see broken or malf-ing Rugers of any type. When I see the P series guns, it's because:
A- the owner disassembled the weapon "beyond the scope of their qualifications".
B- they want night sights or a trigger job.

It is far from my 1st choice of sidearms due to the ergonomics & mode of operation, but they've earned my respect for their reliability & I'd be comfortable with defending myself with one if that was what was available to me.

Buckshot TX
07-25-10, 21:31
Not a hard-use gun.

Actually, that describes MOST firearms, including a lot of service weapons.

Shane1
07-26-10, 13:34
My father had one of there 1st gen P85's, this was quite a few years ago, 1990 IIRC. It was a dog. Long ass trigger pull, crazy ass muzzle flip. Turned me off to Ruger completely. With that said, I do own a LCR and a LCP. We received some for T&E. I bought one of each when the T&E was done. I use them as a BUG when off duty. By BUG, I mean a secondary to my primary. Im at about 900 rnds thru the LCP and close to 400 thru the LCR. I hadnt messed around with the SR9 and most likely wont. My Boss is happy with our Glocks as far as service weapons go.

6933
07-26-10, 14:28
Which service weapons aren't meant for hard use?

Skintop911
07-26-10, 23:28
Actually, that describes MOST firearms, including a lot of service weapons.

Subject to definition and certain clarifications, I tentatively agree with you.

Skintop911
07-26-10, 23:30
I'm a full-time gunsmith (doesn't make me the reigning expert, I just see a lot of broken guns). I hardly ever see broken or malf-ing Rugers of any type. When I see the P series guns, it's because:
A- the owner disassembled the weapon "beyond the scope of their qualifications".
B- they want night sights or a trigger job.

It is far from my 1st choice of sidearms due to the ergonomics & mode of operation, but they've earned my respect for their reliability & I'd be comfortable with defending myself with one if that was what was available to me.

With deference to your experience as a gunsmith and your legitimate experience with Rugers, there remains a distinction between you, and the armorer maintaining a batch of them, the latter is able to gather and correlate performance and maintenance data within narrow parameters over time.

Buckshot TX
07-31-10, 19:59
With deference to your experience as a gunsmith and your legitimate experience with Rugers, there remains a distinction between you, and the armorer maintaining a batch of them, the latter is able to gather and correlate performance and maintenance data within narrow parameters over time.
Agreed - I've worked with a much smaller sample of the particular system, & they've all been civvie owned in this case.

THCDDM4
08-24-10, 12:32
Freedom of Information...

Not so much I guess, I just get a bunch of jargon; talking in circles; and rude dickheaded responses.

I tried. If I get any more info I will post it, but I guess us "civvies" aren't good enough to know information that we footed the bill to research; that could potentially save our lives. I can't believe I pay taxes for this crap, we have FOIA; yet I still cannot find a ****ing report about a single handgun test?
Whats the big deal? They tested some handguns and some did better than others; how could this be such a guarded secret? Is it really so much of a big deal to say X manufacturer had X rounds and X failures and X this or that Vs X manufactuerer, etc...?

Freedom of information my ass... More like: "Screw off you're just a lousy citizen".

I am so sick and tired of any and every Government agency...:suicide:

Business_Casual
08-24-10, 12:46
I would guess the manufacturers wanted to limit the exposure of the results as much, if not more than .gov.

B_C

THCDDM4
08-24-10, 13:03
Are there any manufacturers that openly release there test results?

Damn gummint and damn dirty business'.

John_Wayne777
08-24-10, 16:31
Are there any manufacturers that openly release there test results?


Nope. You'd probably be amazed how many NDA's there are out there. Add to that rules about government contracting (originally designed to prevent companies from getting an unfair advantage in the contracting process to avoid kickbacks and the like) and it becomes pretty difficult to get information. The ATF's rejection of the P250 is now public knowledge only because they challenged the contract process with the GAO...and even the GAO report was redacted and edited before being released. (Note that even the model of the Sig tested was not mentioned in the report...) That little nugget of information wouldn't be out there if Sig hadn't mounted the challenge.



Damn gummint and damn dirty business'.

On the government's part the reluctance to release information isn't generally motivated by anything sinister. It's not just information on weapons purchases, either. I did an evaluation of DOJ/DHS grant spending in Virginia as an academic project some years ago which required gathering information that was supposed to have been publicly available. Much of it wasn't and I actually had to contact each individual grant coordinator in every county/independent city to get the information and paperwork.

The reactions varied considerably. Many were extremely helpful and provided all the paperwork. The coordinator local to me was the county fire chief, and he actually invited me into his office and handed me his binder full of grant information. He gave me anything I wanted and actually answered a lot of questions which provided a lot of good feedback on how he viewed the grants and how he viewed the reporting and compliance requirements for the grant. That content blew the people reviewing my paper away, especially when considered in concert with the sparse information from other areas.

Some were clearly overwhelmed because nobody had ever asked for that information before (which makes one wonder how, exactly, they'd been complying with the grant reporting requirements) and struggled to piece it together. Some were downright hostile. I distinctly remember a police chief who hadn't really mastered use of the reply button in his e-mail rather than the reply-ALL button that sent out a very nasty little e-mail asking in impolite terms who the hell I was and where the hell I got off asking for that sort of data.

For the companies themselves, the sort of data you are looking for isn't really something that benefits them to have available. Think about it from their perspective: It's pretty darn risky to put that sort of data out there. Even something as seemingly benign as information about replacing widget X at 5,000 rounds can potentially turn into an advertising point for another company who says that their widget X only has to be replaced every 6,000 rounds. It's risky for them to state that they fired weapon X in internal testing to destruction at round count X because another company can come along and claim that they fired their weapon Y to destruction at round count X + 1,000. Etc. Also remember to factor in that a good bit of the data you're looking for could legitimately considered trade secrets, and no company is in a hurry to hand those out.

Your goal and motivation are noble enough, but the reality of the world means that you probably aren't going to be able to get any higher quality information without some sources inside the industry, and even then a good bit of what you can learn from those sorts of sources isn't really fit for posting on the internet because it can land people in hot water.

THCDDM4
08-24-10, 16:58
Nope. You'd probably be amazed how many NDA's there are out there. Add to that rules about government contracting (originally designed to prevent companies from getting an unfair advantage in the contracting process to avoid kickbacks and the like) and it becomes pretty difficult to get information. The ATF's rejection of the P250 is now public knowledge only because they challenged the contract process with the GAO...and even the GAO report was redacted and edited before being released. (Note that even the model of the Sig tested was not mentioned in the report...) That little nugget of information wouldn't be out there if Sig hadn't mounted the challenge.



On the government's part the reluctance to release information isn't generally motivated by anything sinister. It's not just information on weapons purchases, either. I did an evaluation of DOJ/DHS grant spending in Virginia as an academic project some years ago which required gathering information that was supposed to have been publicly available. Much of it wasn't and I actually had to contact each individual grant coordinator in every county/independent city to get the information and paperwork.

The reactions varied considerably. Many were extremely helpful and provided all the paperwork. The coordinator local to me was the county fire chief, and he actually invited me into his office and handed me his binder full of grant information. He gave me anything I wanted and actually answered a lot of questions which provided a lot of good feedback on how he viewed the grants and how he viewed the reporting and compliance requirements for the grant. That content blew the people reviewing my paper away, especially when considered in concert with the sparse information from other areas.

Some were clearly overwhelmed because nobody had ever asked for that information before (which makes one wonder how, exactly, they'd been complying with the grant reporting requirements) and struggled to piece it together. Some were downright hostile. I distinctly remember a police chief who hadn't really mastered use of the reply button in his e-mail rather than the reply-ALL button that sent out a very nasty little e-mail asking in impolite terms who the hell I was and where the hell I got off asking for that sort of data.

For the companies themselves, the sort of data you are looking for isn't really something that benefits them to have available. Think about it from their perspective: It's pretty darn risky to put that sort of data out there. Even something as seemingly benign as information about replacing widget X at 5,000 rounds can potentially turn into an advertising point for another company who says that their widget X only has to be replaced every 6,000 rounds. It's risky for them to state that they fired weapon X in internal testing to destruction at round count X because another company can come along and claim that they fired their weapon Y to destruction at round count X + 1,000. Etc. Also remember to factor in that a good bit of the data you're looking for could legitimately considered trade secrets, and no company is in a hurry to hand those out.

Your goal and motivation are noble enough, but the reality of the world means that you probably aren't going to be able to get any higher quality information without some sources inside the industry, and even then a good bit of what you can learn from those sorts of sources isn't really fit for posting on the internet because it can land people in hot water.

Thanks for the info. I understand what you are saying, it is just frustrating as hell to get stone walled time and time again.

So now how do I truly be an informed consumer when the information is being horded?

I first joined this site because in my 2 year+ long stint of research to buy the correct M4 for me (DD M4 V1); I found this site to be the holly grail of useful info on the subject and invaluable. I have always been an informed consumer; be it bubble gum, guns, ammo, cars, or anti-ass-chaffing powders; but how am I supposed to find the best weapons platform for me with no info to base my decision off of?

I could just listen to the general consensus and go with my HK USP or M&P; but thsoe do not fucntion 100% for me; and that is counter intutive to me; I want to know for myself and confirm either way what is my best choice.

I am at a loss really; I understand firearms manufacturers wanting to keep secret certain things, and if they claim certain parts replacement regimines that could open them up to other manufacturers flaming them over it and using it is marketing...


But my question is this:

Are only LE and Military agenicies going to be privy to this info?

Why?

Should they be the only ones who get the info? (I think a BIG EFFING NO!)

Are we as citizens seen as "not good enough"? Seriously? (I was thinking this the other day when I was reading Grants CQB thread and people chimed in that they don' think civvies should be taught this?!?!?!?! I thought to myself; "Wrong! every single civvie should be taught this and then all of us have the info and knowledge to do something to save our and others lives; why the hell would we keep info from people that could save there lives and the lives of others? So a few BG's don't get the info; well listen up if all the Good guys had the info; it matters not how many BG's have it because we are stronger and more numerous than they. Just like the argument that guns should be controlled or banned; it is ****ing stupid, then only the BG"s have the guns!!!!!! Keeping us in the dark is only hurting us all as a whole and helping the BG's IMO. Not to mention it is very dangerous in a society where the military and law enforcement has a distinct advantage and upper hand over civilians; just ask your founding fathers about this one!!!!!!)

As a citizen, should I be kept in the dark about information that I could base a purchase off of that could potentially save my life or end it?:help: HELL NO!!!!!!!!

Should I have to help pay for said testing and essentially be told "**** off" by everyone involved in conducting the test when I am interested in the findings? an even BIGGER HELL NO!!!!!!!!!

I am just so fed up with the Govt. on so many levels, and this is yet another instance where I am kept in the corner with a "dunce hat" on just for being a good hearted citizen in persuit of knowledge; knowledge that I helped foot the bill for chrissake!!!!!!!!!:bad:

The Govt. must not be privy to Newtons 3rd law of motion(Or they must be practicing cognizant dissidence). They are long overdue for a reaction of monumentous proportions...



Thanks again JW777; I appreciate you taking the time to chime in on this thread to provide the info you did. Thanks to everyone else as well.

Skyyr
08-24-10, 17:40
Agreed - I've worked with a much smaller sample of the particular system, & they've all been civvie owned in this case.

Being Rugers, I'd assume that would be pretty much every case. :lol:

Business_Casual
08-24-10, 18:40
Are only LE and Military agenicies going to be privy to this info?

Why?

Should they be the only ones who get the info? (I think a BIG EFFING NO!)

Are we as citizens seen as "not good enough"? Seriously?

I don't think it is that complicated or sinister. It has more to do with NDAs and who pays for the ammo and range time and then buys a bunch of the product. The same holds true for fleet purchases of rental cars by Hertz, for example. Though that is a bad example.

Most people/companies don't have the money and time to spend on evaluations like these. The gov is spending your money, so they do.

B_C

desertdisciple
09-07-10, 02:26
Never have cared for the center fire, semi-autos...
Love my Bull Barrell Mark II.

Also know the GP100's will take virtually unlimited abuse of hot loads. (Though not S&W trigger...the Trigger on mine was MUCH better after a trigger job)

Obviously, there are many Ruger experts on here...
(I'm not one)...but think Ruger is a great name...
(mostly for the previously mentioned models & the 10/22's)