View Full Version : HK USP 45F sold!!!Full size G21 to replace it...Now what??
BLACK LION
07-22-10, 16:02
Erring on the side of caution I reduced my .45 stable to nothing... The USP 45 and every single accoutrement is gone with the wind.
I went with a full size Glock 21 for a few reasons that I dont care to get into... Now what???
Does it have to be plastic? Could get a used West German SIG 220 in .45 for 5-600.
GermanSynergy
07-22-10, 16:07
M&P 45 would be a fine choice, given your parameters.
However, G&R Tactical has the best deals going on the M&P's, and sells em for considerably less than $564.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=SMWE
M&P45 with the Apex sear.
I don't think you will like the HK45 much more than you did the USP45.
Since the HK45 is out I would recommend going with the M&P .45. Lots of sight choices and with the addition of the Apex sear you will have a great shooting/feeling .45.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like the HK45. I just think that if you did not like the HK USP45 you probably will not like the HK45 as much as the MP45 as long as you do something about the MP45's trigger that is pretty bad from the factory.
BLACK LION
07-22-10, 17:52
Don't get me wrong, I actually like the HK45. I just think that if you did not like the HK USP45 you probably will not like the HK45 as much as the MP45 as long as you do something about the MP45's trigger that is pretty bad from the factory.
If I am not mistaken, the HK45 allowed me to get the web of my palm up higher on the gun. It is not CADOJ approved so PPT here runs @ scalping prices( 1300.00+)
No G21 love??
I checked out G&R and it does not specify wether it has the thumb safety???
SWATcop556
07-22-10, 18:33
I would go with the M&P45 and have Grant tune it up at his shop before he sends it out to you. You can have the trigger tuned with Apex parts and I think he's even stepping into the stippled backstrap business. Sounds like he's going to a one stop shop for setting up any M&P of your choice. I believe the TS is an option to add as well.
I'm a huge Glock fan bur I have no love for the offerings in 45. Just not a need for me and they don't fit my hand.
What didn't you like about the USP?
Grip too big?
What didn't you like about the XD45?
BLACK LION
07-22-10, 19:31
Does G&R charge shipping??? It does not look like he does unless its UPS express.
I did not see the external thumb safety on the ones he has listed either???
What aftermarket accoutrement is an absolute necessity on the M&P45???
BLACK LION
07-22-10, 20:03
What didn't you like about the USP?
Grip too big?
What didn't you like about the XD45?
Grip size is a non-issue... It the thickness of the beavertail that prevents me from getting the web of my hand high enough on the gun to keep my performance consistent. The high bore axis "issue" can only be mitigated by permanently altering the grip. I thought to shave the beaver tail since it is thick enough to do so and then stipple it but I figured it would be best to get a pistol that does not need to be permanently altered in ordered to work for me. I also do not fancy the HK only rail interface and the adapters sit my M6X way to low on the gun.
I love the USP but not enough to make excuses for it.
I gave it a fair shake by running 2500 rounds through it before determining its fate.
The XD 45T... well, no complaints here other than the location of the slide stop....My thing is this... What if it breaks?? Will springfield take care of me??? I called and they only cover defects, not normal wear and tear...so much for a lifetime warranty aye....They are not difficult to work on but there may be an issue with the availability of certain parts...
Great gun so far, with no complaints other than some finnicky-ness with the slide stop and certain ammo types...Certainly these issues can be alleiviated or resolved completely...
I'm no handgun power user - but I love my M&P9C. So my vote would be an M&P tuned at GR.
As far as the M&P .45's go, I'd check out the Midsize.45..Very accurate and not a bad choice at all for a CCW. I've got about 3000 rnds on mine, 95% of those my loads,200gr LSWC's. So far, I've had exactly 1 FTF..I ended up going the full Apex route (springs, sear usb, a part at a time) stippled it myself, put Heinie straight 8's on it, and wound up with a damn good pistol, It used to have a TS, but I removed it and installed frame plugs. I'd E-mail Grant at G&R and ask about the M&P's with the TS, he may have them in stock,and he'll set it up the way you want it, before it leaves the shop..
BLACK LION
07-22-10, 20:57
As far as the M&P .45's go, I'd check out the Midsize.45..Very accurate and not a bad choice at all for a CCW. I've got about 3000 rnds on mine, 95% of those my loads,200gr LSWC's. So far, I've had exactly 1 FTF..I ended up going the full Apex route (springs, sear usb, a part at a time) stippled it myself, put Heinie straight 8's on it, and wound up with a damn good pistol, It used to have a TS, but I removed it and installed frame plugs. I'd E-mail Grant at G&R and ask about the M&P's with the TS, he may have them in stock,and he'll set it up the way you want it, before it leaves the shop..
GTG... got thier answering machine 2x today... will try again manana...
I'm in the process of consolidating into an all glock
family. One XD45 gone, the other up for sale. A third G19 on
the way. I still want at least one 45ACP in the stable and after
fondling/handling the Glock G21SF(short frame) on Tuesday I've decided thats the one for me. I think you should check it out.
The reduced grip is a little more "user friendly" than the
G21, ambidextrous mag release also. I'm getting it with the
standard glock rail (not the picatinny) as there are more
holster options with the former. YMMV
iv owned the MP 45 and its was great to shoot and own. But i ended up selling due to lack of cheap target ammo. The trigger isnt the best, but i hear APEX makes a great replacement trigger kit. You can never go wrong with Glock. Sig IMO is another high bore shooter(reason you got rid of the HK) so that isnt a option?
I know own a HK usp 9 and i dont think ill need to own anything else. But iv said that about others too. And the 9mm is easily managed in just about any pistol, high bore or not.
Does it have to be a "plastic" pistol? Have you thought about a 1911 style handgun?
M&P 45. Before you buy, check out the sizes (Full, mid, and compact). If you're just getting one, and you want to carry, consider the mid-size. That's what I have, and a lot of folks who carry a .45 really like the way it balances. If I recall, Grant (at G&R Tactical) carries the mid-size M&P .45.
BLACK LION
07-23-10, 12:24
iv owned the MP 45 and its was great to shoot and own. But i ended up selling due to lack of cheap target ammo. The trigger isnt the best, but i hear APEX makes a great replacement trigger kit. You can never go wrong with Glock. Sig IMO is another high bore shooter(reason you got rid of the HK) so that isnt a option?
I know own a HK usp 9 and i dont think ill need to own anything else. But iv said that about others too. And the 9mm is easily managed in just about any pistol, high bore or not.
Does it have to be a "plastic" pistol? Have you thought about a 1911 style handgun?
I had a custom 1911 and I liked it but it was too much of a primadonna... I sold it and bought the HK USP.
BLACK LION
07-23-10, 12:27
FNP-45?
I like the M&P45 and Glock21 better.
Albeit, the FNP45 is a nice rig, I just couldnt warm up to it more than the above.
I would take a Five seven though....
Ga Shooter
07-23-10, 12:32
I like the 21 but cannot afford to run .45.
Great deal here:D
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58479
BLACK LION
07-23-10, 14:15
I like the 21 but cannot afford to run .45.
Great deal here:D
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58479
Yep, too bad I cant use the E&E. I guess I have to pay money to become an honorary M4C member or some sheet. :suicide:
It's a hard choice for me because i like both the M&P and Glock 21 SF quite a lot. The M&P has much better recoil control though. I like the Glock finish, trigger, and simplicity. Although the Apex parts are nice I don't really want to have to replace stock parts just to make it more like the trigger I can already get from Glock. Then again the M&P's I have molested lately seem to have a god enough trigger out of the box. Hilton Yam probably has the best comparisons of these pistols plus the HK 45 I have seen. I have copied it below:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...0&page=2#76683
Quote:
I recently had the opportunity to shoot some of the front runners in the current crop of fantastic plastic .45 ACP service pistols in a side by side test. While very subjective and relatively informal, this testing proved quite informative. All firing was performed at 7 yards on three IDPA type targets evenly spaced apart about 1 meter center to center. The other shooter, David, was of similar skill and experience level - he's a buddy who is a SWAT operator, firearms instructor, and an
avid IDPA Master Class shooter.
The pistols tested were the HK45 full size in Variant 1 configuration (cocked & locked, with decock capability), Glock 21, and S&W M&P .45 4" with thumb safety. We would run each string once or twice with one pistol, then either alternate shooters or switch guns. Strings of fire included two on each target, failure drills (2 body, 1 head), strong hand only 2 on each target, and two body on each then one head on each. All ammunition was Winchester Q4170 ball fed from the factory magazines. Due to the issues with juggling holsters and mag pouches, we did not perform any reloads or draws for the protocol. All firing was initiated from the high ready.
Each of the review sections refers to the guns "tracking", so I want to make sure we are all on the same page as far as what we're talking about. Tracking primarily refers to the gun's characteristics when moving in recoil, which has significant effects on sight recovery. The shooter's physical characteristics and mechanical capability also affect tracking, but each gun also has particular traits that it imparts to the experience. Tracking can also refer peripherally to the ability to drive the gun between targets in recoil, as the gun's recovery in recoil in conjunction with its overall pointability and muzzle balance have a profound effect on this. My buddy David and I rate guns critically on their tracking and ergonomics, as these two sets of characteristics have the most significant effects on the utility of a gun.
Glock 21
The Glock 21 wore a 10-8 .140" rear notch sight with a .215" trititum front and was otherwise stock. This was one of my buddy's IDPA guns and the stock trigger was quite smooth from countless rounds. The reset was positive as with all Glocks. He has larger hands than I do and did not have issues with the gun's grip circumference. I wear a size 8 flight glove and I immediately noted how thick and wide the grip felt. The Glock was the only one of the test guns which held more than 10 rounds in the magazine. I wonder how the gun would feel if it had been made with a 10 round magazine instead of 13. Despite the huge feel in the hand, I was able to shoot the gun well in the testing. I would expect that the size would come into play during the drawstroke as well as manipulations such as hand transfers and reloading.
Overall the gun behaved as most Glocks, and tracked well in recoil, returning positively to a neutral position after firing. The recoil impulse was soft, but sometimes exhibited a loose mechanical feel much like the impulse of an AK-47 where you can feel the parts moving around in recoil. The gun behaved quite differently when it was fully loaded than when it was almost empty. The difference in the felt recoil and speed in tracking was significant - the gun moved more sharply when empty and more slowly/softly when fully loaded.
HK45
The HK45 tested was bone stock and featured the Variant 1 configuration, which permits cocked & locked carry with a decocking capability if you press the safety down past "Fire." The overall feel of the pistol gained positive marks from all who handled it, and it does feel good in the hand. The single action trigger was very good, but no one volunteered to shoot it DA/SA as the DA pull was quite long and heavy. All test firing was done in single action only. The overall trigger movement was a bit long in that the trigger had to be let out most of the way for the reset, but it did not cause any issues in live fire.
The litmus test of course was live fire, and this is where the HK45 really got interesting. Its high bore axis made for a detached feel in regards to pointability and created a rather pronounced muzzle flip. The muzzle flip was such that shooters remarked that they were "spectators" in the gun's recoil recovery, and that you had to put it back rather than it returning on its own. I likened it to holding on to a pogo stick. It wasn't that the recoil was violent - the straight back recoil was quite soft, but that the muzzle bounced around a lot. After rising and then falling in recoil, the muzzle bounced around a bit prior to stopping at neutral. The gun was quite a chore to shoot one handed in any type of hurry, as the muzzle simply did not want to return on its own.
The HK45 also has a few other issues of note. The Variant 1 decock/safety was often pushed down to the decock position (especially when shooting one handed), and required conscious effort not to decock the gun. If I wasn't careful, I could lock up the trigger trying to decock the hammer as I was pressing the trigger. There is a trough in trigger guard that the bottom of the trigger rides in, and this can abrade the trigger finger of some shooters. Of the three guns, it is the heaviest when empty. The gun's long magazines and unique mag catch design (the typical HK lever that needs to be pressed down to release the magazine) make reloading a bit more difficult. I ended up using my trigger finger to drop the mag as I can't reach it with my thumb. The length of the mags can make indexing them into the magazine well somewhat harder to make repeatable.
The HK45 wasn't all bad news, as its saving grace was its exceptional inherent accuracy and how easy it was for shooters to exploit that right away. The barrel uses the same rubber O-ring setup seen on other HK pistols, and it blows my mind that a plastic service pistol with a rubber ring on its drop-in barrel can outshoot a lot of custom 1911s. The magazines were easy to fill, and feature an excellent corrosion resistant finish.
S&W M&P45, 4"
The last gun has already been reviewed in great detail in a previous thread (READ IT HERE), and it is likely no surprise that it fared very well in this comparison. Of the three guns, it was the lightest and most ergonomic. It was the snappiest in recoil, but it tracked extremely well and returned sharply. I likened the M&P's tracking to watching the Glock 21 in fast motion. Once it came down out of recoil, it stopped moving. Period. It was an interesting contrast going between this gun and the HK. The low bore line and light weight made the gun extremely quick to move between targets. When transitioning between the different pistols, I found that the M&P sometimes returned before I was ready to shoot.
The Achilles heel of the gun is its gritty trigger with indistinct reset. For dedicated individual users, this is easily remedied with a trip to David Bowie's shop. Each generation of the M&P has had improvements in the triggers, and it is my hope that the maturation of the platform brings a consistent out of the box trigger. The other main issue is the magazines, which rust quite easily. All of my dull blue mags were speckled and brown or orange. This is with routine handling and even spraying or wiping with Shooter's Choice Rust Prevent. As I've noted before, bluing is a lousy finish for a service weapon, particularly in the humid climate like that of South Florida. S&W is phasing in a grey electroless nickel looking finish for the .45 magazines, and a black spray on polymer coating in the 9/.40 magazines. In my experience with all the generations of magazines, these new finishes resolve the fuzzy brown mag problem.
Overall Impressions:
After finishing the shooting, I came up with a few "big picture" impressions of each gun.
The Glock 21 is a big, thick gun that is soft in recoil, tracks well, and benefits from the classic consistent Glock trigger with positive reset. It is a solid performer, if it fits your hand, which is a critical caveat. For me, the weight and size were very much of a deal breaker.
The HK45 has good overall ergonomics and it is very easy to exploit its inherent accuracy. Most shooters who picked it up were able to print excellent groups with it right away. It simultaneously bugs and amazes me that a plastic gun with a rubber O-ring around the end of a drop-in barrel can shoot as well as many hand fit custom 1911s. The Variant 1 decock/safety and weird mag catch make for challenging manual of arms. If I could, I would lose the decock function by going to the Variant 9 if/when the parts become available. Users may also want to take a hard look at the LEM trigger module. The high bore axis makes the gun point in a somewhat detached manner and recoil recovery is a bit of a chore. The gun is big and relatively heavy, so handling and carry can be an issue for smaller users. It is pushing the maximum size for an exposed carry duty gun. The upside, and it is a big one, is that this big gun boasts the famous HK reliability and performance.
The M&P45 is lightweight and exudes excellent ergonomics. It is hands down the most comfortable of the three guns tested. Its trigger is useable but most specimens could benefit from some work. It is snappy in recoil but extremely fast returning on target. The low bore axis in combination with fast tracking made this a very shootable setup. For me, I feel that it is the clear winner with many positives overshadowing a relatively small and fully correctable gripe list.
Not surprisingly, the S&W was my overall pick after running the three. Its excellent ergonomics and tracking characteristics made it the best shooting and handling gun. The HK wins hands down in the accuracy and trigger categories, but is a harder gun to shoot for speed and multiple rounds. It has a high build quality as expected, and has the famous HK reliability. The Glock was predictably Glock-like, and is a very functional gun as long as it fits your hand. I would characterize the 21 as the most "middle of the road" gun in that it did not have severe deficits or benefits over the other two guns in most categories (other than size). The durability/longevity record of the Glock 21 is somewhat mixed. The HK45 and M&P45 are both still too new to have full track record, but I hope for good things.
Anyone looking for a pistol for uniform patrol or tactical team use would do well with any of the three guns tested. However, the size and weight of the HK and Glock would limit their utility for plainclothes use for some personnel. Here is where the M&P would shine. Conversely, the M&P works fine in the other roles too, making it the most versatile of the three. I hope that this little shooting test gives folks some food for thought and is of value in making the right choice in a service pistol.
BLACK LION
07-26-10, 17:06
Thanks for posting that, it was a good read and Mr. Yam is always very informative.
I had an interesting weekend. I decided on a G21 full size although the slim frame would have fit a little tighter in my hands.... The grip is a non issue since it is no bigger than an HKUSP, the only thing is the bump on the backstrap that pushes into the palm heel...
I procured a Weller soldering kit that had some interesting attachments, one being like a butter knife that allows me to flatten and spread plastic... the hump will be flattened a bit then stippled over.
What made it a deal was the fact that it was under the glass as "USED" (New ones ran around 570.00-599.00) but upon visually inspecting it the rig looked as if A. He only cycled and dry fired but never made it to the range or B. He made it to the range but got through the first box and found the grip was too big then sold it right away. There isnt a single mark on the barrel or any signs of fowling... I rubbed my fingers along the recoil sping and got nada...it could have been cleaned but I doubt it since the factory gold grease was still all over its respective areas.
It was listed as 499.00 with only 2 mags and nothing else... I got him down to 475.00...
So, I got a damn near factory new G21 for less than what some used ones were going for (550.00 plus transfer fees)...
OTD I paid 540.00 on this.
Glock was all in all a better choice since my "back up" is a G17.
It was an interesting weekend for the XD as well. I had it up for sale but I found a "maglock" thumb rest in my loose parts that has been laying around for a few years. I never installed it becuase the roll pin is too hard to press in and I didnt want to break the grip saftey to put it in... So.... some quick steel, new Weller soldering kit and a couple hours to spare and I have an extended beavertail and ambi thumb rests on my XD....This will allieviate 2 known issues wich are the bore axis and the location of the slide stop.... The rests put my grip thumb almost level with the top of the slide and off to the side, clear away from hindering the slides movement and clear away from accidentaly riding the slide stop, inducing malfunctions...
I was really warming up to the M&P 45 and actually ordered one from Buds for 565.00 shipped. BUT after going to the range and physically seeing a range M&P labeled "S&W wont fix" that completely shyt the bed(blew the dust cover and trigger guard completely off)...They offered to show me 2 more that had the same thing happen to them... They all love the M&P and kindly stated they all ran out to get one after Todd G's pistol training exploits but the ones they see seem to have the same issue of shytting the bed big time...
Why those guns did not make it through the high round counts others have , I dont know but all were in accordance when I asked if they have ever seen this happen to a Glock and I got a boringly unanimous NO!!!
Sooo...
XD back in rotation
G21 soon to be added(once I wait my 10 days)
Reguarding the range M&P that S&W "won't fix". How did the dust cover, trigger guard get blown off? Was it from the use of their reloads? (assuming they sell them) What was the round count when this happened? I'm not saying it could'nt happen,I'm not doubting you, but this is the first I've heard of anything like this...I suspect the shop's not being compleatly honest with you, Although I don't know, it sounds like, from what you discribe, that someone blew up their M&P and expected S&W to fix, for free..If this happened with factory ammo then the manfacturer owe's someone a new pistol.. Years back, when I had a new CZ blow up in my hands from the use of Wolf ammo, they(Wolf) did'nt quibble about buying a new one..If they(the shop) did it with their own loads..then they're shit outta luck, with noone to blame but themselves. I reload myself..have been for 29 yrs..For a pistol to get damaged as you discribe, somebody used the wrong powder,wrong charge,wrong ammo, something..These things don't "just happen" there's always a root cause, I don't think they're telling you the whole story...Anyway, enjoy your new toy when you get it!
BLACK LION
07-26-10, 21:23
Apparently it was a range gun, using factory ammo and they do not remanufacture or sell remanufactured ammo, so the ammo was "not to blame".
In this case and the two others they mentioned it was an internal part that caused it. How and why are unbeknownst to me although one knowledgeable gent explained to me how to the best of his ability. From what I understood, some shyt got twisted and turned around inside untill the kb happened.... a spring or some shit.
I dont know but when I decided to marry an M&P45 and they roll out 3 of them that all sheet the bed big time, one kinda gets a case of cold feet and I went with something that has been on the torture table much longer and survived.
I am no trying to disseminate bad info. I have been racking my brain for some time trying to iron this out and believe me, I drank the M&P kool aide and was all sprung on buying one until they rolled that phucker out and showed me the KB gun... they then added there were 2 more in the back with the same "issue"....
As far as they were concerned they were all M&P kool aide drinkers and still are even despite the KB guns they have...they still say they are great but thier 3 range guns were not "high round count shooters".... This of course can be argued all day from both sides but all I need to see is one that shyts the bed and the flags go up.
Glock "perfection" it is.... but even still, its not like these have never seen a KB since thier conception.
I'm no gunsmith but I've had both my M&P's torn down to literally a pile of parts..Really, they're quite simple. Anyway, I don't see how any spring can get twisted around until a KB happens..It just can't happen.There's nothing to get twisted around. Something stinks here, Anyway, thanks for your explaination,I still think they did something, and don't want to 'fess up..But, It's their story and they can tell it anyway they want.
I got G30 and 220 and 4516 thats all I need :big_boss:
BLACK LION
07-27-10, 15:01
I'm no gunsmith but I've had both my M&P's torn down to literally a pile of parts..Really, they're quite simple. Anyway, I don't see how any spring can get twisted around until a KB happens..It just can't happen.There's nothing to get twisted around. Something stinks here, Anyway, thanks for your explaination,I still think they did something, and don't want to 'fess up..But, It's their story and they can tell it anyway they want.
I agree, its thier story. Maybe I was too busy looking at the pistol and not tracking exactly what he was saying. I wasnt there, so I have no idea what happened so all I can do is hypothecate. :confused:
What I do know is that out of all this shit came a solid choice in .45 and if anyone would have asked me about owing a glock in any caliber I would have laughed. I am fortunate that I caught up to my ignorance and now I have 2 glocks.
Thanks for the input guys
Reguarding the range M&P that S&W "won't fix". How did the dust cover, trigger guard get blown off? Was it from the use of their reloads? (assuming they sell them) What was the round count when this happened? I'm not saying it could'nt happen,I'm not doubting you, but this is the first I've heard of anything like this...I suspect the shop's not being compleatly honest with you, Although I don't know, it sounds like, from what you discribe, that someone blew up their M&P and expected S&W to fix, for free..If this happened with factory ammo then the manfacturer owe's someone a new pistol.. Years back, when I had a new CZ blow up in my hands from the use of Wolf ammo, they(Wolf) did'nt quibble about buying a new one..If they(the shop) did it with their own loads..then they're shit outta luck, with noone to blame but themselves. I reload myself..have been for 29 yrs..For a pistol to get damaged as you discribe, somebody used the wrong powder,wrong charge,wrong ammo, something..These things don't "just happen" there's always a root cause, I don't think they're telling you the whole story...Anyway, enjoy your new toy when you get it!
I completely agree. If the gun went "kaboom" it is probably because Bubba and Jethroe rented it and snuck in a few homemade rounds with super high powder charges in order to "try to duplicate the 'stopping power' of a .44 magnum" :jester:
When they returned the gun to the rental counter, I'm sure they swore up and down that they only used the range ammo. They're only fooling themselves, and maybe the owners of the gun shop.
This issue has not been brought up around here before despite a huge user/feedback base. When it allegedly happens three times at the same range, it leads me to believe very strongly that something was not quite kosher at that location.
If you're looking for opinions on reliability/durability among the polymer .45's, google Larry Vickers' comments on the Glock 21.
For what its worth, my $.02 says to save up for the HK45. I have big hands and use a high grip, and get the exact opposite result as Hilton Yam. In my hands, the HK45 has less perceived recoil, less muzzle flip, and more quickly and consistently returns to zero than either the M&P or Glock. It is also generally thought to be the most 'bomb proof' .45 available. As always, though, YMMV.
BLACK LION
07-28-10, 18:38
I completely agree. If the gun went "kaboom" it is probably because Bubba and Jethroe rented it and snuck in a few homemade rounds with super high powder charges in order to "try to duplicate the 'stopping power' of a .44 magnum" :jester:
When they returned the gun to the rental counter, I'm sure they swore up and down that they only used the range ammo. They're only fooling themselves, and maybe the owners of the gun shop.
This issue has not been brought up around here before despite a huge user/feedback base. When it allegedly happens three times at the same range, it leads me to believe very strongly that something was not quite kosher at that location.
If you're looking for opinions on reliability/durability among the polymer .45's, google Larry Vickers' comments on the Glock 21.
For what its worth, my $.02 says to save up for the HK45. I have big hands and use a high grip, and get the exact opposite result as Hilton Yam. In my hands, the HK45 has less perceived recoil, less muzzle flip, and more quickly and consistently returns to zero than either the M&P or Glock. It is also generally thought to be the most 'bomb proof' .45 available. As always, though, YMMV.
I can imagine all sorts of things and normally the "gun shop wisdom" isnt the most sought after but what came straight from the horses mouth was that it was not a "bubba and "jethro loading super hot handloads" issue.... It was factory ammo...not surplus...not steel cased commie shyt, not remanufactured and not reloaded...
I was told they had a couple "lemons" and this was one of them...
Maybe the quasars alligned and they just happened to get 3 lemons... Believe me when I tell you I immediately threw in the ammo towel and to my suprise it was quickly declined by not one but three horses. Believe me again when I tell you they would have much rather sold me an M&P45 becuase they would have made an extra 150.00 off of me.
I also need to correct my previous post where I stated this same issue happened 3x...It was actually a cracked slide or something to that effect on an M&P40 and the dust cover blowing off the 9 on 2 occasions...no ill reports on thier .45 as of yet.
I am good on the HK45(NOT DOJ APPROVED HERE) and I have read Vickers take on the G21... HK's are tanks as all of us can agree but after 2500 rounds through the USP I have found there are other more a suitable options for me.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11699&page=2
There is allot of reference material in this thread. I have been doing my homework for the most part so I am not sorry about my choice. I am not trying to be a hardass and I am not trying to kick shyt on the M&P...I really like the gun but maybe another day and another dollar.
ColdDeadHands
07-29-10, 15:09
G21SF, I personally don't care for the feel or size of the M&P's and neither for the companies history.
G21SF is a great gun.
I've got a number of Glocks... and among them a G30 (my 1st Glock .45) and a 21SF. I have a lot more experience with my G30 than I do with the G21SF. The G30 is a magnificent pistol... remarkably soft shooting, surprisingly accurate, reliable!, and feels great in my hands. My 21SF is a little less comfy fitting in my hands, but I can hold and fire it fine. It's been excellent as well, but my time and usage with it is less than with my G30.
I very much like the capacity of 14-rounds. Mine has been totally reliable for the 500 rounds or so that I've fired through it. It's my nightstand gun, though several shotguns and a couple other pistols are close at hand as well. Not that I expect trouble... I just like guns! ;)
If you can hold and fire a 21SF fairly well, I think it's a great platform with excellent big-bore capacity.
And, the G30 I give very high marks to, as well!
For what it's worth, in terms of ergos the normal G21 is crap to me but the G21SF is amazing.
Now that I have had the 21SF for a few weeks and put nearly 1000 rounds through it, I am selling my USP.
ThirdWatcher
08-01-10, 22:48
Another vote for the Glock 21SF.
RogerinTPA
08-02-10, 12:56
M&P45 Middy compact. Full size grip with 10+1 mag cap. Add Apex sear, striker block and Warren 2 dot night sights from G&R Tactical.
BLACK LION
08-02-10, 14:22
Apparently the grip on the SF is only 1/8th smaller than the full size and the heel/hump on the lower part of the grip is just as pronounced on both models. My info may be slightly off but there isnt that big of a difference (FOR ME) between the 2.
I purchased a Weller soldering gun kit from Lowes and it has a pressing/spreading attachment that I will take to the beefier sections of the grip before I stipple it.
I have fairly large hands so the size isnt a big deal as long as it is stippled or grip taped...IMO the factory traction sucks on non RTF frame Glocks.
What do you G21 runners do in terms of aftermarket parts...
Solid guide rod?
Ported barrel?
ETC....
Congratulations on your choice; I've had excellent results for years with my Gen 3 G21 with the standard frame.
Probably the most crucial thing at this point is sights; I would suggest replacing the OEM polymer sights with steel sights, and there are numerous excellent options available, many of which have been recently discused on the forum here.
If funds are an issue, the most inexpensive route would be to simply go with Glock's steel sights (which are actually the ones that I've had on my G21 for years)-they'll run you only about $20.00 for the set. They do have the large/thick Glock front sight, which works well at close range, but not necesarily so well (or a greater challenge) at greater distances due to the blade's relative thickness.
Other alternatives that I've gone with on my other Glocks have been Trijicons, which have a relatively thin front sight blade for a tritium nightsight, and subsequently provide a very good day and night sight picture, and Warren Tacticals, which provide a very fast and effective sight acquisition and alignment.
I believe that the Trijicons are still available directly from Glock, at a very preferential price, and that Glock can install them for you if you ship them your slide. Glock also has the Glock-branded Meprolite nightsights, whose steel casings are Tenifer treated and have a 15 year warranty (the Trijicons have a 12 year waranty), but these sights have a thicker front sight blade than the Trijicons.
On my G21 I have also installed the Glock Extended Slide Stop/Release; the one to get is the one they provide for the G37; it's usually a drop-in proposition with most G21s.
For holsters, for concealed carry and competition I prefer Blade-Tech's kydex IWB, and for an inexpensive OWB beltslide holster, the Glock polymer Sport/Combat is an excellent value for about $15.00.
In the lubrication department, I prefer TW25B for the connector/triggerbar interface, the cam hump, and the locking block/barrel lug interface. For all other lubing, I prefer Weapon Shield; but again, there are a host of excellent alternatives available.
Again, congratulations on your decision-let us know how it shoots, and if you have further questions.
Best, Jon
Ga Shooter
08-02-10, 15:45
I run the Heinie 8s on mine. Like Jon said TW25 lube is all I run. Ghost 3.5# connector, extended slide release that is all. They are pretty good to go IMHO out of the box. Good Luck.
BLACK LION
08-02-10, 16:24
I run the Heinie 8s on mine. Like Jon said TW25 lube is all I run. Ghost 3.5# connector, extended slide release that is all. They are pretty good to go IMHO out of the box. Good Luck.
GTG....
I do appreciate your offers BTW...
I just happened to find a path with less resistance and a 475.00 price tag I couldnt refuse :)
I am using Royal Purple at the moment and so far I like it.
Extended slide stop and TD extended mag release are on order.
I am also gonna look into a good mag well that acts as a butt plug as well.
I really want to get a big tritium front sight and run a black steel rear... I am going to look into Meprolight and Ameriglo's offerings
although I do like the XS big dot. I cant seem to locate just the big dot front since I do not want the XS rear sight.
I am going to let the factory trigger break itself in before I fool with it... I am starting to like the stock trigger on my G17 after a few hundred rounds through it.
Lots of mags and ammo, but you know that already. :p
The Ghost 3.5lb connector is fantastic. Some decry it on any carry gun but I do not see the issue. Don't pull the trigger if you don't want the gun to go off. Ghost Inc. has an excellent article (http://www.ghostinc.com/category/1triggerweight/) about the topic.
A guide rod will let you monkey around with different recoil springs if you are so inclined.
As mentioned, you'll definitely want to get rid of those stock sights. I threw a green HiViz on the front of mine and it is decent but, I am still looking for a new rear or a whole set. I'm leaning towards keeping the fiber optic front and getting a plain, serrated rear or replacing both with a set of Warren or Heine's. I plan to use a tac light on my 21SF and that pretty much removes the need for tritium sights in my opinion.
The Ghost 3.5lb connector is fantastic. Some decry it on any carry gun but I do not see the issue. Don't pull the trigger if you don't want the gun to go off. Ghost Inc. has an excellent article (http://www.ghostinc.com/category/1triggerweight/) about the topic.
I'm thinking Ghost might be just a little biased on this subject. It's a lot easier to pull that trigger before you want to than people think in many situations.
Get some quality sights, a Vickers mag release and be done with it.
G21SF, I personally don't care for the feel or size of the M&P's and neither for the companies history.
I assume you are referring to the involvement of S&W in 2000 with gun safety standards? If so, are you also aware that the company is under different ownership now?
BLACK LION
08-04-10, 16:24
I'm thinking Ghost might be just a little biased on this subject. It's a lot easier to pull that trigger before you want to than people think in many situations.
Get some quality sights, a Vickers mag release and be done with it.
GTG...
I like the stock trigger and it seems to unphuck itself the higher the round count. I am not the type to fool with triggers in pistols even though many recommend varous sorts of "trigger jobs"...
I like to keep my pistols stock and a 4.5# pull is not bad.
Nothing wrong with a stock trigger, I like it too.
I won't rebut to the condemnation of light triggers as I do not want to derail the thread.
G21SF with "-" connector and NY-1 trigger spring, Glock NS and Glock extended slide release. Best gun out there for duty, IMHO, and all stock parts. Don't stray away from stock Glock parts, you're just asking for trouble. All this gun needs is more .45 ball to shoot!
BLACK LION
08-05-10, 20:51
The serial # begins with NPN so it was manufactured Aug 2009.
Any detriment to running the solid guide rod???
The serial # begins with NPN so it was manufactured Aug 2009.
Any detriment to running the solid guide rod???
Unless you have a compelling reason to fiddle with the recoil spring weights, I can think of no good reason to go from the OEM recoil spring assembly to an aftermarket guide rod. If you do a search on any number of shooting forums, you'll find that aftermarket guide rods/springs often are the source of operational issues, which are mysteriously resolved by said users simply going back to the OEM assembly.
For some time Glock has provided a stiffer polymer recoil spring guide, reportedly capable of withstanding ridiculous amounts of sustained fire without degradation; they're identifiable by the number "1" on the rear flange, underneath the part number.
Unless your genuinely skilled in the benefits of incrimental spring weight changes configured to your cartridge powder loads and bullet weights (and, as a shooter have enough skill to discern/ take advantage of them), I would strongly suggest that you leave well enough alone in this department-if only to preclude us from the follow-up thread, "My Glock Isn't Functioning Reliably With My Aftermarket Guide Rod-Help!"
Your money is better spent on practice, training, and competition.
Best, Jon
Ga Shooter
08-06-10, 08:53
Unless you have a compelling reason to fiddle with the recoil spring weights, I can think of no good reason to go from the OEM recoil spring assembly to an aftermarket guide rod. If you do a search on any number of shooting forums, you'll find that aftermarket guide rods/springs often are the source of operational issues, which are mysteriously resolved by said users simply going back to the OEM assembly.
For some time Glock has provided a stiffer polymer recoil spring guide, reportedly capable of withstanding ridiculous amounts of sustained fire without degradation; they're identifiable by the number "1" on the rear flange, underneath the part number.
Unless your genuinely skilled in the benefits of incrimental spring weight changes configured to your cartridge powder loads and bullet weights (and, as a shooter have enough skill to discern/ take advantage of them), I would strongly suggest that you leave well enough alone in this department-if only to preclude us from the follow-up thread, "My Glock Isn't Functioning Reliably With My Aftermarket Guide Rod-Help!"
Your money is better spent on practice, training, and competition.
Best, Jon
+1 Very well put. Good advice.
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