View Full Version : Participate in Magpul courses if I come from outside USA
Hello guys! I am a new forum member, this is my first thread. My name is Josué (Josh), I´m 24 years old and I´m from Spain. Nowadays, I´m a Spanish Army NCO, light infantry branch, posted in the Spanish Airborne Brigade.
I think the courses offered by Magpul are a good opportunity to improve my qualities as military. but I have sent several messages using the Magpul website requesting information, but I have not received any response, and I just dont know why :sad: I would like to participate in classes about gun or rifle. someone could provide me some info about these courses? the problem I have is that I do not live in the united states, but in Spain.
Hi and thanks for your time.
take care out there.
Benjamin_Martin
07-25-10, 08:47
I believe they do a background check on attendees, good question though curious to see the answer as even their DVD's of training classes are not allowed outside the US market.
puffff... what a mess... so they could get me out of their training program for being not an usa citizen ?????? I understand them, but if it´s this way... I think they are loosing an awesome opportunity for training other forces. DoD does it already.
I believe it is illegal under ITAR for a private US company to provide military training to non-US persons.
ITAR is an acronym that stands for International Traffic in Arms Regulations (22 CFR §§120-130) that are administered by the U.S. Department of State through the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) under authority of the Arms Export Control Act (22 USC §2778). ITAR places strict controls on the export of "defense articles" and "defense services." Defense articles include any item, software, or technical data on the United States Munitions List (USML). Defense services include the furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether or not in the United States, with respect to defense articles, and the furnishing of any technical data associated with a defense article. Any defense article, service, or related technical data found to be on the USML requires an export license to be exported; i.e., given to a foreign person, whether or not in the United States.
Defense Service:
1. The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United
States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles;
2. The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled on the USML (see 22 CFR §120.10), whether in the United States or abroad; or
3. Military training of foreign units and forces, regular and irregular, including formal or
informal instruction of foreign persons in the United States or abroad or by correspondence courses, technical, educational, or information publications and media of all kinds, training aid, orientation, training exercise, and military advice. (See also 22 CFR §124.1.)
It appears you can't even order the MagPul DVD's. Reportedly, the threshold for violation of ITAR is very low. MagPul could conceivably get in trouble just for corresponding with you, even if it's just to tell you "no way, José", and I couldn't blame them for erring on the side of caution.
Benjamin_Martin
07-25-10, 10:54
Well, there you have it.
Like Starkist Tuna used to say, "Sorry Charlie". ;-)
Hmac, ITAR didn't make illegal for a foreign individual to obtain training or information/technical resources/... just made mandatory to obtain the propper authorization, like when a US company sells military equipment to a foreign country or citizen.
ITAR is a pain in the ass, believe me, I was so much tired of trying to move everything through it that I decided to become client of an American company whose only work is to prepare the paperwork.
ITAR = dozens of forms and authorizations + 6-8 weeks waiting, but it goes well if you aren't living in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran or similar.
For training in the US most companies will demand a big group instead of only one individual, because the process costs enough money to make it more easy to just say no and fill the course with more US citizens.
Yes, good point. ITAR applies "strict controls". But illegal if those controls aren't observed. And painful, I suspect.
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
07-25-10, 13:19
Hmac, ITAR didn't make illegal for a foreign individual to obtain training or information/technical resources/... just made mandatory to obtain the propper authorization, like when a US company sells military equipment to a foreign country or citizen.
ITAR is a pain in the ass, believe me, I was so much tired of trying to move everything through it that I decided to become client of an American company whose only work is to prepare the paperwork.
ITAR = dozens of forms and authorizations + 6-8 weeks waiting, but it goes well if you aren't living in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran or similar.
For training in the US most companies will demand a big group instead of only one individual, because the process costs enough money to make it more easy to just say no and fill the course with more US citizens.
Reseremb is correct.
with the proper varification we can train anyone not from "those countries" We train OCONUS personell all the time. It is not a ITAR restriction for people however the State Department gets their panties in a wedge when you start talking tactics... but since our basic weapons manipulation training and DVDs are not tactics related they are ok for export.
and to be clear NO the DVD's are not a ITAR violation and can be sold OCONUS
hey travis! It´s so great to have you posting at my thread!. I appreciate what you do very much. you are a great guy, although I am sure that many people have told you that already. I would like to ask the question directly to you, if you dont mind ... is there any possibility for an European NCO (Spanish in my case) to go to USA for participating at Magpul classes????:help:
thank you very much for your time, it's a whole gift. and continuing doing a so well done job!!!
beware out there.
Benjamin_Martin
07-25-10, 17:21
Guess you can be Starkist after all.... I swear I saw a disclaimer during the playback of The Art of Tactical Carbine .....
Von Rheydt
07-25-10, 17:48
and to be clear NO the DVD's are not a ITAR violation and can be sold OCONUS
Hi Travis, thats nice to hear from you directly. I know quite a few guys in Euro-land that would like to get their hands on the DVD's but, they have been told "No, we don't export to foreigners".
To clarify even more. That was with the offer of effectively providing end user statements on military paper with brass sign off and chops.
Magpul didn't sell OCONUS but the DVDs have been available from Amazon since at least 9 months ago.
Magpul didn't sell OCONUS but the DVDs have been available from Amazon since at least 9 months ago.
travis didnt say that... right ???? just asking:blink:
Travis said that DVDs are not under ITAR norms, but that doesn't mean that Magpul process orders from outside US.
Just checked Magpul's website and you can't order from outside US, so DVDs or any other non-ITAR product have to be purchased through other means. Amazon, Brownells...
Von Rheydt
07-25-10, 19:28
Given, they are available from many US based outlets.
However, that does not mean that they are willing to sell outside of the USA. Honest, hand on heart etc. etc. I only recently moved to the USA so I know what it is like ordering from the USA. You generally wait till you come over or get someone else coming over to do some x-training to pick stuff up for you.
It is an ongoing problem that really pee's off many guys serving in Euro-land.........not just with the DVD's. Dealers generally give one of two reasons for not wanting to send stuff over:
1. The favourite: "I'd love to but I can't because of Itar" .......... that translates to "Oh, shit I'd have to go to the Post Office myself and stand in line to get the rates for Europe".
2. Next best, and I got this personally from Botach, and others: "We can't take overseas credit card orders", this translates to the same as number 1 above, adding the element of, "We are confused and would not be able to cope with an overseas credit card order". I personally cannot be convinced otherwise on this, regardless of how much a company may whine - my wife is a senior VP for a credit card company and I checked the answers given by traders. Think about it, I can wander around stores in the USA and spend on my UK card - no problem. But, I telephone them from the UK and they become all Duh! we can't do that.
Yes, yes, I know how frustrating Itar can be. Been there and done it with an MC-4.
I will continue dreaming that one day I will go to USA just for spending a whole day buying whatever I want to. I´m begining to think that this is the best way. am I wrong ???? :suicide:
what about tigerswan ???????
Many weapons parts, accesories and optics do indeed fall under ITAR. It is a very murky field and having dealt with it personally I can tell you it is a major headache.
Given, they are available from many US based outlets.
However, that does not mean that they are willing to sell outside of the USA. Honest, hand on heart etc. etc. I only recently moved to the USA so I know what it is like ordering from the USA. You generally wait till you come over or get someone else coming over to do some x-training to pick stuff up for you.
It is an ongoing problem that really pee's off many guys serving in Euro-land.........not just with the DVD's. Dealers generally give one of two reasons for not wanting to send stuff over:
1. The favourite: "I'd love to but I can't because of Itar" .......... that translates to "Oh, shit I'd have to go to the Post Office myself and stand in line to get the rates for Europe".
2. Next best, and I got this personally from Botach, and others: "We can't take overseas credit card orders", this translates to the same as number 1 above, adding the element of, "We are confused and would not be able to cope with an overseas credit card order". I personally cannot be convinced otherwise on this, regardless of how much a company may whine - my wife is a senior VP for a credit card company and I checked the answers given by traders. Think about it, I can wander around stores in the USA and spend on my UK card - no problem. But, I telephone them from the UK and they become all Duh! we can't do that.
Yes, yes, I know how frustrating Itar can be. Been there and done it with an MC-4.
Magpul does sell the DVDs outside the US, I ordered mine directly from Magpul and there wasn't a hitch.
Can't believe the hearsay people will spread around without any kind of verification.
Von Rheydt
07-26-10, 13:54
Magpul does sell the DVDs outside the US, I ordered mine directly from Magpul and there wasn't a hitch.
Can't believe the hearsay people will spread around without any kind of verification.
Did you order thru the US Mil APO system or thu the normal "I'm a civvy" postal system?
I can tell you its damn frustrating spending time and phone bills trying to put money in peoples pockets to get them to send stuff to Europe. Back then the guys that wanted the DVD's got them eventually but they had to get someone to pick them up when they were on a course Stateside.
OK, so now it comes out they were not under Itar. But, on the end of an email or phone what are you going to do if you are told point blank "No" even when you offer credentials and paperwork.
You've got to understand. In Euro-land if you want asomething that is made or marketed by a US company you have to pay severely inflated European costs. I hear yawns, but understand when you pay $200 for something here in the USA they pay $400 for the same thing in Euro-land. The natural thing is to try and get items at a cheaper price. In the main these guys are soldiers buying stuff out of their own money.........we all know military pay sucks.
On a lighter note, I passed over a set of the DVD's to one of the UK Squadrons as a christmas present last year. I was told they liked them.
Oh Boy, the Urban Prone has now left state side!
Did you order thru the US Mil APO system or thu the normal "I'm a civvy" postal system?
I can tell you its damn frustrating spending time and phone bills trying to put money in peoples pockets to get them to send stuff to Europe. Back then the guys that wanted the DVD's got them eventually but they had to get someone to pick them up when they were on a course Stateside.
OK, so now it comes out they were not under Itar. But, on the end of an email or phone what are you going to do if you are told point blank "No" even when you offer credentials and paperwork.
You've got to understand. In Euro-land if you want asomething that is made or marketed by a US company you have to pay severely inflated European costs. I hear yawns, but understand when you pay $200 for something here in the USA they pay $400 for the same thing in Euro-land. The natural thing is to try and get items at a cheaper price. In the main these guys are soldiers buying stuff out of their own money.........we all know military pay sucks.
On a lighter note, I passed over a set of the DVD's to one of the UK Squadrons as a christmas present last year. I was told they liked them.
Hello,
I am a European civilian with no American citizenship or residency status - yes, I ordered it normally via their website to my home address. I do know about the inflated costs, I've lived here since I was born:p, which is why I always try to order directly from the US.
If there's a shop that won't send to Europe, I'll either suck it up and skip that item or find a different store that will. I won't fight with people to be allowed to give them my money.:no: That's not regarding 'ITAR items' (which I've never attempted to order, pointless and illegal), that's just generally anything. There are some that won't send to Europe for one reason or the other, and others that'll ship it right away without a hitch. I know which ones get skipped and which ones get my money again and again..
Well, it goes both ways apparently...
Took me six months to get the two spearguns I wanted from an Italian company (OMER).
I believe they do a background check on attendees, good question though curious to see the answer as even their DVD's of training classes are not allowed outside the US market.
:rolleyes:
Many weapons parts, accesories and optics do indeed fall under ITAR. It is a very murky field and having dealt with it personally I can tell you it is a major headache.
Pretty much everything firearm related falls under ITAR these days. Canadians have to deal with this headache all the time. I live just over an hour from the border I'd love to pick up a bunch of PMAGS rivet them (5 Round Mag Capacity on Semi Auto Centerfire Rifles) and bring them back over but instead that's impossible with out breaking several US Federal Laws. Because riveted PMAGS here go for around $35 each and LR PMAGS for $60 and up.
Brownells is a registered exporter and can ship other companies who are registered for export parts as long as they are not main parts i.e. frame out of the country provided the order of goods is under $100.00USD
It would really be nice if more US Companies especially those registered to export would do so themselves taking advantage of the $100 exemption.
I'd love to get LaRue mounts straight from LaRue instead of get charged 70-80% mark up on everything.
But trying to stay on topic, I as a Canadian would like to take a Magpul course or two. Just gotta find one that will be close enough to the border within the next couple of years.
DVDs are regionally coded, a North Amercian region 1 DVD will not play in any other region's player unless it is a "region free" or modified player. My guess is this may be why you only see the MD DVDs in North America.
Mearly a guess.
CarlosDJackal
08-07-10, 23:16
Travis said that DVDs are not under ITAR norms, but that doesn't mean that Magpul process orders from outside US...
What exactly does this mean? :confused: As far as I know anything related to firearms and associated TTPs fall under ITAR.
This does not mean it cannot be exported or sold overseas. It just means that it can only be done once it has gone through the process of obtaining such an approval and via approved exporters of such products.
lol Hope we find a solution to this. It´s a shame... But you have still more options than me (in spain). here, we have not a damn thing about good tactical shooping web´s. We are in Europe as well, but I think it could be essier from UK ?? I don´t know... I´m still thinking that the best chance is going to USA and spend theren a entire day shooping. More economical than from Europe, for sure...
So we've established that Magpul DVD's can be sold outside the USA (Magpul has an entire division in Hong Kong for airsoft, and they also sell the DVD's.)
There are some European stores I've seen that sell Magpul items, so that can happen too.
And he wouldn't be coming here as official military, but rather as a civilian who wants to take a class, right?
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