View Full Version : AAR / Photos Up - TigerSwan 2-Day Tactical Carbine @ Prado Shooting Park
Good day folks,
This past weekend I attended the 2 day tactical carbine course run by TigerSwan at Prado Shooting Park in Chino, CA. The instructors were Brian Searcy and Kyle Defoor. This was my first time participating in any sort of carbine training so I cannot make any comparisons. What I can say without a doubt is that I had a great time learning from two great guys with real world operational experience in two different branches of the elite special forces. It was a sizeable class with a 11:1 student/instructor ratio, but ample attention was given to everybody. Both instructors were very approachable, and offered genuine counsel on practical application of the tactics they were covering. The goal stated at the beginning of the course was to make our carbine work smooth and accurate.
Day 1 - no kit:
We started with an emphasis on range rules/safety and how it directly translates to safety on the field no matter where we are. There was a briefing on equipment usage (slings, sights, stocks, magazines, malfunctions, etc.). Afterwards we headed onto the range for a quick talk about prone and a demonstration on how to correctly deploy into the prone position. Then we proceeded to zero our rifles at 50m using five shot groups (Kyle and Brian made it very clear that they usually do this on 100m ranges and preferrably 200m, so they wanted our ten shot groups to shrink down into the X ring on the NRA bull).
Instruction progressed from the ground up on fundamentals: sight picture, trigger control, follow through, cheekweld, eye position, grip (both primary hand and support hand), respiratory pause, etc.
After Kyle and Brian were comfortable with our zeros, immediately we did some ten round/60 seconds/with-a-mag change-thrown-in drills. Following prone, we did the seated position along with its variations, discussed its situational uses, and got a chance to try all the variations out to see which we felt more stable with. Once again, ten round slow fire drill to start, progressing to 60 second drills with a magazine change. Onto the dreaded kneeling position, we went over some techniques to try out before the same drills were attempted.
We took an hour lunch and then closed the distance up to the 10m line for some close up work. We covered A-zone, B-zone, and C-zone hits and its effect on a human target. We immediately jumped into firing 1 shot at the target, being required to get strictly A-zone hits. We each individually had to find our rifle's holdover and compensate for it. Then we picked up the pace, always paying attention to the basics. At no point in time were we allowed to fall back on the fundamentals. Once we got acquainted with our holdovers along with familiarizing ourselves with A-zone only hits to the head or chest, we jumped into multiple target El Presidentes with variations on head/chest points of impact. Following that, we threw in mag changes as well (truthfully speaking, those of us with California 10-round mags were throwing in mag changes in the middle of drills anyway).
Concluding the day, we split up into two groups - I was in Kyle's group which went into timed shots from standing to kneeling on a steel target. Kyle's time was 1.85 seconds, which was tied by one of the students (sorry sir, I don't think I got the pleasure of meeting you). Wrapped up, called it a day, and endured my somnambulistic drive home.
Day 2 - full kit:
The first hour or so was essentially the same as day 1 to reconfirm our zeros and to go through the positions. Then we threw on all our gear for a reiteration, to illustrate how much kit actually affects the different positions. Once getting acclimated to the different positions (and 60 second drills) we went back into El Presidentes but with simulated cover thrown in. As Kyle profoundly put it, most of the time baddies are behind cover, but when it's either you or him, you gotta take the shot and make sure it's not you. For added stress, A-zones shrank by 50% due to the simulated cover.
We were then introduced to the two set-ups (short bound sprint and long bound run). The students were split up into three relays and went through the drill of executing a proper set-up starting from 40m-ish (either short or long bound, as called out by Kyle) to engage a target. A-zone hits were still stressed along with the fundamentals. Next came shooting on the move (tougher than it looks!), and then lateral move and shoot. This is where knowing your holdover was absolutely crucial, as it moves depending on where the barrel is in relation to the sights (either horizontal or vertical), and how close you are to your target. There was even a simulated hostage that was a strict no-shoot zone. Each time someone put a hole in it, it was pointed out and shown how to correct it. Ten times out of ten, it was a lapse in one of the fundamentals and helpful coaching was conducted.
Next up was an intro to barricades (including the effect of resting barrels and non-free float handguards on them), covering possibbly the most stable way to take advantage of it. I had never felt so comfortable shooting on my support side until that moment. Concluding the day, we ran a single file barricade-overtake course. I was horrible at it, fumbling with my 10 round mags and bullet button, non free float handguards, and of course stress. I was tapped on the shoulder at the third barricade which ended my drill.
After a quick debrief to go over what we learned over the previous two days, Brian and Kyle left us with the words TigerSwan lives by:
"There is no such thing as advanced shooting, only perfect execution of the fundamentals under stress."
My equipment for the class was as follows:
Rifle:
BCM 20" Standard Government Profile Barrel/upper with BCM Auto BCG and Gunfighter CH, plastic handguards.
CMMG Lower Receiver, Stag LPK
A2 stock
EOTech XPS 2-0 on RRA Dominator II mount
VTAC sling, mid mount using BFG universal 6" loop and A2 buttstock sling adapter
LBE gear:
ICE Battle belt, Maxpedition Triad Admin, EMDOM Dump
Esstac Bush Boar with padded harness, hydration carrier, and KYWI inserts
California compliant components:
Bullet Button
Raddlock Tool affixed to chest rig with alligator clip and 550
Riflegear Bullet Button tool clipped to trouser D-ring
8 10/30 PMags
3 10/20 Pmags
Ammunition:
1000 rounds, Hornady TAP training, 55gr .223 - coated steel case
Beta Company Speed Loader (for 10 round stripper clips)
Beta Company Personal Loader (for loose rounds, 5 at a time)
My rifle ran with zero malfunctions. I brought a spare BCG, and I simply did not need it. Bottom line is that BCM uppers are good to go. Hornady TAP training ammo is the bomb. California needs to get rid of this 10-round fixed magazine cap.
Other Lessons learned:
The thumb of the support hand does an amazing amount of recoil management.
Jamming mags flat out sucks without a speed loader, especially when the time could be spent learning.
Free float handguards/rails are a must for any barricade work.
A 20" barrel is cumbersome while slung, and in trying to prevent lawn darting my barrel I inadvertently swept another student on two occasions. I profusely apologize, guys. I swear I am not this careless, but the fact of the matter is I must not allow it to happen at any time.
Too much more to type out. Bottom line is, this class was well worth the price of admission.
Policing brass is not awesome, Kyle. Learning from you and Brian, however, is. :cool:
Definitely interested in taking more carbine training from TigerSwan.
Thanks go out to Brian, Kyle, Chen, and Paul for making this all happen. Can't wait to see the pictures taken. Chen/Paul?
-Les
Great AAR Les,
I will post more later but this is the 1st of the photos.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/kd-04.jpg
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Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com
Ted/Chen are working on the rest of the photos but I expect them to be ready shortly.
Will-IB-Ready
04-21-10, 11:14
Excellent AAR and some great photos. Thanks for sharing.
Course: TigerSwan 2 Day Tactical Carbine Course
Dates: April 17-18, 2010 (0800-1700)
Location: Prado Olympic Shooting Park Chino CA
Instructor(s): Brian Searcy, Kyle Defoor
The purpose of this AAR is to report on my personal experience of completing the 2 Day Tactical Carbine Course offered through TigerSwan in Los Angeles, CA on the days April 17-18, 2010. This report will provide an overview of the topics covered in the two days of training, personal impressions and experience(s).
This AAR will not cover Drills/Exercises in detail mainly to keep an emphasis on what was taught and personal experiences.
Instructor Interaction
The instructors were very open to questions and answered them in great detail. I personally liked how Brian/Kyle would ask each other if they had anything to add after an overview of the skill being introduced. It was interesting to see their perspective on things which reflected their experiences during active duty.
Training Summary
I want to mention here that ( as far as I can remember) for everything that was taught/introduced they provided a logical reasoning / fundamental principle behind it, some real life experience to put it into perspective, a drill to measure the skill and a drill (sometimes same one) to improve it. So from here on out, assume that for everything I mention the above was covered.
Also I will go into a little detail for day one to highlight the student to instructor interaction. Day two will be brief in detail but the student to instructor interaction remained high and consistent.
Day 1
Day one began with a safety brief and then introductions of class members and instructors. We began with a short discussion on the carbine platform and all the components on it. They talked about magazines, optics, lights and placements.
Then we hit the range to shoot prone and zero our rifles. But before we hit the range the instructors told us to take all our kits off. Day one was conducted without any kit. Normally their drills are conducted at 100yds but we only had a 50yd range so we zero’d at 50. The instructors went over in detail on the prone position and corrected each individual as students zero’d their rifles. The instructors were able to look at shot groups and diagnose what the individual was doing wrong and provided a solution to correct it. We did this for the kneeling and sitting position as well. Groups post zero were timed and scored from various positions.
Following lunch or sometime before we had a few short lectures (I can’t remember at what point in time we had these lectures) on malfunctions, obstructions, component failures, cleaning, lubing and how to clear malfunctions. They passed around examples of equipment gone bad so we knew what to look for. We also were tutored on mounting the rifle in the standing position and a brief about what targets they preferred to use for training and why.
Next we hit the 10yd line, it was time for the CQB stuff. They talked about stance, mechanical offset, reaction times, and driving the gun. We started shooting slow and steady and by the end of the day we were engaging 3 targets with body shots and head shots… A-Zone hits in CQB times. We also learned to coach a shooter so that we could also recognize problems and diagnose them.
Day 2
Day two began like day one a few lectures and then we did everything we did in day one except we put our kit on. The first half of the day was time spent improving skills from the previous day with our kit on. Since we had kept our scores from the previous day we were able to see how we performed with our kits on.
The goal was to make adjustments to kit/positions so that we would be shooting exactly like we had without a kit.
The rest of the day evolved by stacking one fundamental with another and adding difficulty to the fundamentals which helped expose my weakness in them. The following were covered in day two, again for each fundamental introduced a logical reasoning/principle behind it and drill was presented.
- Running with a gun, short bound, long bound, setting up after running
- SOTM (shooting on the move), speed, movement and drills
- SOTM support side
- SOTM on multiple targets behind simulated cover w/ hostages
- Barricade shooting, cover/concealment, how to mount a barricade, how to come into a barricade, how to shoot through various holes from different positions
Impressions
What I noted about the teaching methodology here was they provided you with the principles behind the shooting position/technique and how the mechanics affect it. They also provided you with a methodology to quantify how good you are and tutored students on how to diagnose problems and solve them. A good example would be my experience in the sitting position.
On day one I struggled with finding a stable sitting position that was not forced or put me in a extreme eye position. My highest score was an abysmal 60 from any sitting position on day one. While eating lunch I went through the thought process of deriving a stable shooting position that the instructors had conveyed. I was able to come up with two shooting positions that were slightly modified to fit my body that adhered to the principle behind a stable sitting position. On day two we shot at the shooting position and I shot a 75 with one and a 90 with the other. So now obviously I will be using the sitting position I shot a 90 with and then work the drills they taught us to improve that score.
Now that was a simple example but here is my point.
Taking this class has given me an understanding of the fundamentals and a problem solving methodology to come up with solutions to diagnose my shooting and improve it on my own. TigerSwan not only teaches the fundamentals of marksmanship but also teaches the student how to think, how to diagnose and gives you a training mindset that will carry you forward in a quantifiable way.
I would highly recommend this course to anyone of any skill level. In fact the more skilled you are the more value you could get from the instructors because of their incredible resume.
I would like to thank Chen and Paul for setting this up and the instructors for coming out. I had a great time and the students that attended were all great people! This course was really worth taking. I will definitely be taking another TS course if the time and location work out for me.
George,
Side Notes:
Total Round Count: 1150
Carbine: BCM 16” Upper w/ DD-Omega 7.0 Rail, Kaiser Defense Lower, Solar Tac grip, ACE Entry Skeleton Stock, Denny’s BCG (w/ BCM Gas rings, the original Denny’s Gas Rings broke @ 1200 rounds prior to TS class), Primary Weapons System TTO Muzzle Break, T1-Micro w/ LaRue quick detach mount, Vickers Sling
Carbine ran flawlessly until I let it run dry (now I know how little lube I can get away with). I dipped it in lubrication and it ran fine for the rest of class. No cleaning in between days other than bore snake.
Kit: SOC-C Blue Force Belt, 3xFast Mags, 1x Dump Pouch, cargo pants, kydex pistol holster, Eagle Industries pistol mag holster. Total rounds carried on person: 240 (4x30 in cargo pockets, 3x30 in FastMag, 1x in Carbine)
Misc: Next time I'm loading everything into stripper clips so I can load up even faster with my StripLULA. Probably the best piece of gear I brought out.
One More Thing...
There was one thing that Kyle and Brian had mentioned during a lecture about magazines. They talked about their opinion of Pmags and Kyle even said "The Tan ones are the worst". I was supprised at what they said but kept it in mind.
Well as I was doing an equipment check after I got home from Day-2 here is what I found.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy121/gm_77/Pmag-Tan%204-20-10/Pmag_Tan.jpg
Well... Kyle pretty much called that one on the money.
U.S.Cavalryman
04-21-10, 19:39
Good AAR's. You guys had bigger class than mine. Good to hear that you can get some quality training in California despite gun laws. I am in New York so I know most of your pain
Just wait until Chen makes it over to M4c to post up Ted's amazing photos.
They will blow your socks off.
The start of Ted Tae's amazing photos.
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Wow... awesome photos
It looks as if Tiger Swan is next on my list for training.... I even saw a Robinson XCR in the group of a huge variety of carbines.
Great Job!
Looks like it was an excellent class! GREAT photos also! I look forward to catching a class with them in the fall!
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SpookyPistolero
05-15-10, 20:38
Oh man does that look like a good time. My jealousy rages!
Question: Why do you need a free-float barrel when working with a barricade?
Oh man does that look like a good time. My jealousy rages!
Question: Why do you need a free-float barrel when working with a barricade?
You want a supported solid platform to shoot off of. So depending on how you mount the barricade, this can put enough pressure on the barrel to throw off your point of impact if you don't have a free-float barrel or if you support the gun by putting the barrel against the barricade.
Oh man does that look like a good time. My jealousy rages!
Question: Why do you need a free-float barrel when working with a barricade?
G_M explained it, but it's the handguard that is free-float, not the barrel. Or I could be wrong. >_<
Whether or not there is a POI shift that you can notice when supporting the carbine on a a barricade is going to depend on a lot of factors. Those include (IMHO in this order):
Ability of the shooter
Ammunition fired
Technique used
Pressure applied
Results required (degree of precision, or group size)
Handguard type
GLOCKMASTER
05-16-10, 11:57
You want a supported solid platform to shoot off of. So depending on how you mount the barricade, this can put enough pressure on the barrel to throw off your point of impact if you don't have a free-float barrel or if you support the gun by putting the barrel against the barricade.
G_M is correct in his post especially when shooting at distance. It has nothing to do with the ammo or shooter. If you rest the barrel on a barricade or piece of cover and apply pressure against the barricade or cover with the barrel, you will see a significant shift in your POI. Also the more pressure you apply the more of a shift you will see. It is especially noticeable when you are shooting at distance. I have seen it make a difference of several feet at just 100 yards. You can eliminate this by placing whatever type of handguard system you are using against the barricade or cover instead of the barrel.
IMHO everything starts with the shooter and the ammunition. That's why I will always put them first anytime a question of the impact of equipment on accuracy comes up. I've watched shooters make themselves nuts buying all sorts of this and that when the reality is they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn regardless of the equipment used.
Yes, if you lean on, or put pressure on, the barrel or a part of the gun that can impart pressure to the barrel, you can affect your POI. One way to address this is to free-float the barrel. Another way is to use a technique that avoids putting excessive, or reduces the amount of, pressure on those parts.
Failure2Stop
05-21-10, 14:03
I was suprised to see so many pictures of fundamental positional shooting. Glad to see that I am not the only one that does so in conjunction with the more "combative" positions.
One More Thing...
There was one thing that Kyle and Brian had mentioned during a lecture about magazines. They talked about their opinion of Pmags and Kyle even said "The Tan ones are the worst". I was supprised at what they said but kept it in mind.
Well as I was doing an equipment check after I got home from Day-2 here is what I found.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy121/gm_77/Pmag-Tan%204-20-10/Pmag_Tan.jpg
Well... Kyle pretty much called that one on the money.
Are there concerns with PMAGs durability now? We hear how bombproof they are, yet here are some examples to the contrary. Would you care to elaborate on what their opinions were?
Are USGI aluminum mags "better"?
Surprisingly they were not a fan of PMAGs and liked USGI mags better. They mentioned two things that I can remember. One was the feed lips breaking and the magazine catch area deforming. Kyle mentioned that the Tan ones were the worst, I think the reasoning was because they dip them in a chemical to make them Tan. They passed around a PMAG, sans feed lip, to show us how they can break along with other parts of the AR.
The PMAG in the picture that cracked was about a month old and was in perfect working order before TS. I did load a PMAG to 31 by accident and was frantically smashing it in to get it seated with the bolt closed (another reason to push pull... but thats another topic). It could have been that one, but I really don't know. That PMAG will not fall freely and it fails the tap test as it ejects a round as I smack the bottom of the PMAG even though the crack looks small.
What I took from their experiences was that when PMAGs failed, they seem to be able fail in a more catastrophic manner. Like instead of loading a round you loaded a feed lip LOL.
Surprisingly they were not a fan of PMAGs and liked USGI mags better. They mentioned two things that I can remember. One was the feed lips breaking and the magazine catch area deforming. Kyle mentioned that the Tan ones were the worst, I think the reasoning was because they dip them in a chemical to make them Tan. They passed around a PMAG, sans feed lip, to show us how they can break along with other parts of the AR.
The PMAG in the picture that cracked was about a month old and was in perfect working order before TS. I did load a PMAG to 31 by accident and was frantically smashing it in to get it seated with the bolt closed (another reason to push pull... but thats another topic). It could have been that one, but I really don't know. That PMAG will not fall freely and it fails the tap test as it ejects a round as I smack the bottom of the PMAG even though the crack looks small.
What I took from their experiences was that when PMAGs failed, they seem to be able fail in a more catastrophic manner. Like instead of loading a round you loaded a feed lip LOL.
Thanks for sharing that info. It does make sense that a chemical dip to bleach the mags could result in a slightly weakened plastic. On a completely unscientific note, when handling the 6 windowed tan ones in my possession, I've always felt that they felt more brittle than the foliage and black ones I have. You could probably call me insane for arriving at that conclusion, but it's just my untrained (not an engineer) impression.
I will continue to purchase PMAGs, but I think I'll stay away from tan and stick with foliage or OD. I could hit either one of those colors with a bit of tan krylon to give a bit of the camo pattern.
dookie1481
06-20-10, 00:32
Was this an all-LEO class? There are a lot of non-neutered ARs considering this is in CA.
Jay
thopkins22
06-20-10, 02:54
I was suprised to see so many pictures of fundamental positional shooting. Glad to see that I am not the only one that does so in conjunction with the more "combative" positions.
Probably the biggest thing I gained out of my first course at CSAT a few years ago was how important some of the basic positions are. It's relatively easy for me to maintain acceptable accuracy and rate of fire from the prone, it's a little harder to shoot fast and accurate up close, but at least for me it's much much harder to make quick accurate shots from kneeling and sitting in the 50-100 yard range.
In the future I plan to dedicate a hell of a lot more dry fire to the kneeling and seated positions, and a significantly larger portion of my live fire.
Tigerswan has been on my list for a long time, and what you've pointed out is part of the reason they're bumping up past a few others. Too many quality outfits and not enough time and money these days....
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