View Full Version : CQBRs and Bipods.
Magic_Salad0892
08-22-10, 08:21
I'd like to gear my 11.5'' gun to be a little more flexible, I'm contemplating replacing the optic with an ACOG or Elcan (If I can find a Gen III then the Elcan is definite.).
Would it be feasible to run a bipod too? or would that just make it unusable for CQB and I should suck it up and go 14.5'' with my other KAC. (Currently awaiting tax stamp so I can have the barrel cut.)
I owned the Elcan and never feel in love with it. Bought if for my "games" gun. I have my SBRs set up with Aimpoints and the ability to run the 3X if needed. That set up is also a lot less money than the Elcan. While the SBR is accurate at longer ranges I believe it has more of a CQB feel and dont really see the constant need for an optic with magnification.
IMO there is also NO reason for a bipod on anything other than a SPR. Too many things for it to snag on.
Why would you even considering a bipod?
decodeddiesel
08-22-10, 11:24
I ran a Harris bipod on my 14.5" M4 for a very short while during my second tour in Iraq. I also had a TA31 and an NT4 on the weapon, and used is in a pseudo designated marksman role. While it proved to be effective at engaging man sized targets to 500 yards, it was a less than ideal setup. I found that the bipod grossly threw off the balance of the carbine, made it unnecessarily heavy, and once I finally took it off it stayed off for good.
Magic_Salad0892
08-22-10, 17:36
I shot a third gen Elcan and pretty much fell in love with it. It weighs the same as an ACOG with a Docter riding it, and IMO it looks badass.
One reason I'm not rolling a magnifier with my Aimpoint is that I feel like it's too much stuff on the rifle, and just asking to break, another reason is that on a magnified optic I want a bullet drop compensator of some sort. The Elcan has this out to 800 or 1000 meters. (Don't remember which.)
Also, if the Canadians and other SF can use them to success on CQBR guns then I figure the Elcans that don't suck would be more than enough for me.
I've never owned a bipod so I don't know how much they weigh or balance or anything.
I was contemplating just running my ACOG, but when trying to engage targets in CQB I'm reeally slow. This is a problem I don't have with an Aimpoint. I also don't want to deal with ''chin weld''. I hated that. (I borrowed a friend's RMR, and hated this.)
(engaging targets in CQB = trying to aim at paper targets posted in my hallway and other targets in my house while I'm moving. :p)
GermanSynergy
08-22-10, 18:03
FWIW I've never heard anyone issued an ELCAN have anything nice to say about them. A bipod on a CQBR type platform would be more of a hinderance than anything else- it will add alot of weight and isn't really ideally suited for this (CQB) platform.
Maybe.
If you are running an SBR or carbine as a Patrol Rifle, then a bipod is a viable option that could be useful on an extended perimeter assignment. However, I would only consider something like the grip pod that could serve primary duty as a vertical grip.
I have experimented with magnifiers behind my Aimpoint, and have decided that I prefer just the red dot. The monoculars were just too heavy and cumbersome for my taste, and I haven't had any problems hitting out to 400 with just a hold over. Granted, that was prone on a stationary target, but it can be done with practice.
I prefer the Aimpoint M3 (haven't talked myself into shelling the coin for an M4), but I have several friends that have used or are using ACOGs in CQB roles. I considered it, but my department limits magnification to 3x. I've heard that this is possibly due to TCLEOSE requiring long guns with more magnification than 3x to be qualified as "precision rifles", but I haven't checked into it personally. Frankly, for what I use it for, my Aimpoint works fine for me out to a range that my little SBR's ballistic performance is questionable at best.
Saleen
FWIW I have a Elcan SU230 (SOF SpecterDR) on my SCAR and its a much better 4X sight than a 1X sight. I can shoot in 1X fine with both eyes open but you still have to have proper eye relief and alignment. Its not like a red dot on 1X, its a scope with no power at that setting. I love mine it just takes a bit of gettingused to. As for the bipod, I also have a BCM 11.5" and wouldnt want the extra weight....
Magic_Salad0892
08-23-10, 04:37
FWIW I've never heard anyone issued an ELCAN have anything nice to say about them. A bipod on a CQBR type platform would be more of a hinderance than anything else- it will add alot of weight and isn't really ideally suited for this (CQB) platform.
For what it's worth, most people issued Elcans are issued first gens. Which I wouldn't take for free. But the one I borrowed had been beaten up a bit, and held zero well. I shot it well too. At 4X I shot it a little better than my ACOG, and at 1X a little slower than an Aimpoint. But not slow enough to get me killed trying to protect my house, I'd think.
I know about the eye relief thing. Irritating at first, but I moved it back more like a scope, and I got a lot faster with it. :) I shot it better than an AccuPoint.
Also I own an M4S. It's very well worth the $740 I paid for it.
http://news.soc.mil/Photo%20Archive/2010/2010%20UNS%20Archives/album/288929.jpg
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/3373/4759531371404dbc2e0fo.jpg
These guys think it's a good idea
Magic_Salad0892
08-23-10, 07:31
That last one is actually the picture that made me think of doing it.
Notice the Elcans... :p
buddyhoohaw
08-23-10, 09:28
FWIW and as far as I know there is no Gen III Spectre DR;rather, Gen II Rev A and Gen II Rev B models. I have a Gen II Rev A which was a SOCOM overrun and I believe 99MHC4's Spectre is a SOCOM Gen II Rev B.
There is a decent post on SH that illustrates the lineage:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1033111
So far I like my Spectre DR and I have had no POI issues switching between 1x and 4x. Granted, I do not kick in doors with it or use it in an austere environment, however, I believe many of the problems such as mounts coming loose, POI shift and accidental 1x to 4x lever actuation have been fixed on the Gen II. Many folks also complain about the weight, however my Spectre DR is an ounce lighter than my NF 1-4x in LT104 mount.
I suspect this optic, like alot of pricey guns and components, get's a bad rap because the massess like to justify their reasons for not buying one....kinda like the SCAR. This is only my opinion.
Cheers
Short Dot
Larue QD bipod adaptor
Problem solved.
FWIW I've never heard anyone issued an ELCAN have anything nice to say about them. A bipod on a CQBR type platform would be more of a hinderance than anything else- it will add alot of weight and isn't really ideally suited for this (CQB) platform.
FWIW while digging around in DRMO at BAGRAM Airbase, I came across a box of ELCANs. When I asked about them I was told they lose their adjusment and it can't be repaired.
Granted, combat is hard on equipment, and the box I saw could all have been the result of IED strikes, I never saw a box of damaged ACOGs, Aimpoints or EoTechs sitting around.
As for a bipod, I ran one on my CQBR but mostly for range use; as stated, it's a bunch of weight and obstruction on the end of the bbl that doesn't make you any faster getting in/out of vehicles or thru doors.
Failure2Stop
08-24-10, 15:29
Just because you see a pic of a dude with a 10.5 gun with a bipod while he is providing some kind of support does not mean that it is an optimal solution.
Sure, you can stick a 10x mildot optic, bipod, suppressor, 325 lumen light, and a Geissele trigger on your 10.5, but you gotta ask, "why?"
For distances at which 10.5 guns are relevant a bipod is not. Sure, you can get hits out to 700 meters with skill and luck with shorties, but that really isn't their job. How many people have/need bipods on their 16" GP guns? Not too many, unless their general purpose involves long-range/precision shooting, and in those cases a few more inches of barrel doesn't hurt portability much.
But to tie it all together, I have never been in the middle of clearing an enclosure and thought,"man I wish I had a bipod right now," and while providing precision support I have never wished that my barrel was only 10.5 inches long.
It seems to me that you are trying to gain capability by selecting accessories that are used to extend performance, not the ones that define the application framework. I would recommend recentering your approach- start with the base (gun) and then expand from there.
jklaughrey
08-24-10, 16:05
Agreed, why put a Marine in a clown costume, just let him work!
Magic_Salad0892
08-25-10, 00:12
Short Dot
Larue QD bipod adaptor
Problem solved.
I've been thinking about the Short Dot, does it have a bullet drop compensator?
F2S: Thanks for the advice. The perpose is that I want something that isn't too big for any enviornment (my apartment) but still get range out of it, I'm pretty dead set on not running the bipod though.
Though... I really like Kevin's idea of a QD bipod adapter.
The GripPod can make it somewhat viable - but without a longer-than-carbine handguard space is limited for a QD Harris unit.
I'm looking at hacking an AFG (the pack part) to butt against a GripPod - see if that solves some of horrific ergonomics of the grippod as I use it.
Ridge_Runner_5
08-25-10, 00:33
Short Dot
Larue QD bipod adaptor
Problem solved.
Agreed, at the very least on the QD bipod...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/DSC_0012.jpg
Has anyone tried the Fab T-Pod? Decent compromise or waste of money?
I am currently using my ACOG on my 11.5" until I can score an Aimpoint for a decent price.
Magic_Salad0892
08-25-10, 18:53
Does the ACOG take much practice to get good with?
What ACOG are you using? TA31?
Aimpoint M4S on an 11.5'' is super fast.
ACOG's just require you to know the range (as long as your Ammo and barrel length work with the reticle).
If not you need to know range and what your ammo/gun combo do in relationship to the reticle.
I had a Short Dot on my M4A1 with LMT 10.5" for a bit in Afghan, it worked but the shorty was not optimal for that AO.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Afghan%20Take%20II/Kevin076.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
08-26-10, 12:16
Nice pic, Kevin.
Would you say an ACOG setup would be good to go? (At CQB range. I have no problem at distance at all.) I could try to get good with it. It'll just take practice. Or would a variable optic be really worth it?
I am of the opinion that its not worthwhile for either on a CQBR.
While you can use them at range they are NOT ideal. Yes it is possible to get kills at 400m with a Mk18 style gun - but longer guns are better for that stuff.
The ACOG is usable, and if you have time and inclination on the KD you can get decent drop info for your combo that you can use the ACOG reticle for longer work.
I still think the T1 is the best option on short guns.
my question is this. i am cross eye'd dominant, so i had to trade my aimpoint compM3 for an EOTech for the eye relief in cqb. What kind of eye relief does the acog or elcan have for cqb situations?
Failure2Stop
08-26-10, 14:04
There is nothing at all wrong about sticking a bipod and magnified optic on a little gun to practice precision marksmanship or see how precise your barrel/ammo combination really is.
However, I would not keep them permanently stuck to the gun, instead I would set the gun up to perform superbly in the conditions that I will need to use it to defend lives, and with a shorty what that comes down to is a quality 1x optic, quality proven magazines, a durable dependable mounted light, and the skill to efficiently and effectively use them.
There is nothing at all wrong about sticking a bipod and magnified optic on a little gun to practice precision marksmanship or see how precise your barrel/ammo combination really is.
However, I would not keep them permanently stuck to the gun, instead I would set the gun up to perform superbly in the conditions that I will need to use it to defend lives, and with a shorty what that comes down to is a quality 1x optic, quality proven magazines, a durable dependable mounted light, and the skill to efficiently and effectively use them.
Amen.
Ridge_Runner_5
08-26-10, 17:04
my question is this. i am cross eye'd dominant, so i had to trade my aimpoint compM3 for an EOTech for the eye relief in cqb. What kind of eye relief does the acog or elcan have for cqb situations?
My TA01 has about an inch and a half of eye relief...I've heard that ACOGs usually have 2 inches, tops...
My TA01 has about an inch and a half of eye relief...I've heard that ACOGs usually have 2 inches, tops...
so I am basically screwed.. EOTech's for life for me now.. at least there is one quality sight that will work for me
Failure2Stop
08-27-10, 07:44
so I am basically screwed.. EOTech's for life for me now.. at least there is one quality sight that will work for me
Yes and no.
The TA11 and TA33 have much better eye relief than the TA31 series.
However, the only ACOGs I would stick on a gun built for close-range work are the 1.5x flavors.
If magnification is something you think you want I would suggest a flip to side 3x magnifier behind a T1 or XPS/EXPS.
Did you see the FAB Tactical Foregrip Bipod? It looks sweet, forward grip that converts into a Bipod.
Did you see the FAB Tactical Foregrip Bipod? It looks sweet, forward grip that converts into a Bipod.
Tried one out once; felt a little cheap. Had concerns about the latch getting fouled up, and leaving the operator with either a crappy foregrip or a crappy bipod at the worst possible time. I have my concerns with the whole 2 in 1 deal; items that try, usually don't do either very well.
The perimeter element of our SWAT Team is issued Colt 6921s with ACOGs and bipods. The plan was for an invisible perimeter of little designated marksmen. Great idea in theory, but in practice it doesn't pan out. In reality, we primarily do break and rakes, gas delivery, entry team support (runner control, carrying the fire extinguisher:rolleyes:), and odd jobs. The bipods simply get in the way most of the time, and they are useful maybe once a year outside of a training environment. F2S's point about using a bipod to give you a stable platform for zero and POI shift is a good one, and hits home for me; this is really all we use them for. In fact, this year, we switched to personally owned ARs, and I ditched the bipod.
The ACOGs can be used in close quarters, but as noted before, they are far from ideal. Eye relief is closer to 1.5 inches, at least in my experience. Depending on the lighting conditions, the reticle can be slow to pick up, as well.
Definitely go for the 1X optic. If there's a chance of engaging over longer distances, but the gun's primary role is close range engagements, then a 3X magnifier might be in order. If you're in my shoes, and you're stuck with the ACOG, then a red dot riding piggybacked is a step up, but still not great.
so I am basically screwed.. EOTech's for life for me now.. at least there is one quality sight that will work for me
I can get as much as 4" with my Elcan but 3" is really best.....
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