View Full Version : When to Splurge vs When to Scrimp?
First, I just want to thank all the knowledgeable heads on this board for the wealth of information I've been able to glean during my short tenure here. Thanks to you, I know far more than ever before regarding steel grading, quality control and many other facets of the industry. Of course, I now have a plan for a custom build formulating in my head.
That said, I have a question that's been rattling around in the back corner of my mind for some time now. At the risk of inciting a potential flame festival, here goes:
When is it OK to go cheap?
Now before we erupt into chants of "How much is your life worth?" and "Can you afford to have [COMPONENT] fail when your life is on the line?" please hear me out. I'm absolutely NOT talking about scrimping in the critical areas. I comprehend the importance of barrel steel. I understand what makes a quality BCG worth the money. I'm starting to grasp what goes into a good LPK versus a sub-standard one.
Here's what I mean:
Is there a real, quantifiable, justifiable difference in quality in many non-critical components? Can you shave a few dollars here and there so you can afford to upgrade elsewhere? For example:
- Is there a difference between the $2.00 handguard cap from RRA and the $15 piece from someone else?
- Is there anything inherently wrong with the $4.00 A2 flash hider from DPMS vs the $9.00 A2 flash hider from Daniel Defense?
- Is there ANY difference in quality between ANY ejection port cover ANYWHERE?
- Does anyone expect the $18.00 forward assist button from Brownell's to outperform or outlast the $8.00 button from Midway?
- Is any one gas tube better than another? (I know, I know... this actually IS a critical component, but is it even possible to manufacture a bad one?)
- Is your life in jeopardy if you buy your castle nut from Del-Ton? What if you buy your endplate from Model 1?
- Is there such a thing as an "inferior" receiver extension (provided that it's within specifications and it fits)?
- Aesthetics notwithstanding, has anyones trigger guard ever "failed" on them?
Now, I understand that all these examples are perhaps trivial, with potential savings of only a few dollars here and there. However, by the time you've scoured over EVERY single component of your "build list," those few dollars have added up. For some of us, that could mean the difference between this barrel or that, or the coating on your bolt. At the very least, it should cover the cost of a spare set of springs, pins washers or screws.
So where - exactly - would you feel comfortable "shopping price?"
(Be nice, guys... I ask this with good intentions.)
I always go toward the "least expensive"milspec buffer tube I can find each and every time. The last one I ordered was $17 from Palmetto. It was transplanted onto my Beretta CX4 by some "surgical procedures." I cannot for the life of me consider spending twice as much on a VLTOR tube for any of my rifles.
I also did only spend $100 on a YHM Specter LW HG for my AR pistol. I like it's installation method much more than my more expensive rails like my JP/VTac or my Troy MRF. Significantly more stable....The JP does look cool on my Grendel though :)
If you're making a plinking gun that you don't want to depend on for your life, put the optic on it that fulfills the role of the weapon. If you're making a weapon that you can trust your life on, do not skimp on optics. My SHTF gun has an Aimpoint Comp M2 and a TLR-1. And put good $$$ into your mounts. Basically it goes: If Larue is an answer, Larue is the answer.
The_Hammer_Man
09-28-10, 05:13
I agree totally with you.. in non-critical COSMETIC areas such as rail covers and pistol grips and so on I personally go as "inexpensively" (read cheap cheap cheap) as I can.
In fact, I'll scrounge/beg/borrow (but not steal) used parts that are still good except they're not "pretty" anymore.
What do I care bout pretty? I own SEVERAL cans of spray paint thanks.
One of the only areas that I refuse to go cheap on , besides barrel/LPK/BCG ,etc, is my optics.
Point in case,,
Recently ,last week, I decided to clean out my "other peoples stuff" boxes in my shop. This all items left behind by either previous employees or friends who gave me stuff.
I found a very blemmed Colt upper receiver , minus it's dust cover and with a broken FA. Easy fix there.
Found a M4 profile 1:8 16" barrel from Adams Arms that's been on the shelf (ie unsellable) for 2 yrs.
Assembled a bcg from parts, staked it good and proper and headspaced the bolt and so on.
Found a Midwest Industries rifle length SS FF tube I forgot I had..
Assembled it all in about an hour.. slapped a 3x9 on it and went to the range with a friend.
Got all setup and was expecting typical 1"-2" groups.
nope not today or since.. the silly thing shoots 1/2 MOA all day long if you feed it 55gr V-max.
Total out of pocket for all this bang bang goodness?
under $200
Arcana,
I'll post one example and you can think about it.
When I was in the military overseas we had an M4 (Colt) where the BCG completely froze up. It wouldn't move no matter what I did. I assumed that something was jammed inside the upper.
I removed the entire buttstock assembly to discover that the pawl on the forward assist broke off. The forward assist consists of a pawl, joined to the forward assist by a roll pin, and a spring. In the end the upper receiver was damaged beyond repair and had to be replaced.
So that was pretty much a catastrophic malfunction. This was with a milspec Colt M4 carbine. Anything can break at any time. So why take chance by buying something like that of unknown origins?
The_Hammer_Man
09-28-10, 18:30
Not to be a me 2 sort.. but ...
I'm with Irangunz about "system critical" parts.
Spend your money on the essential parts nescessary to ASSURE the proper function of you weapon.
If you think you "can get away with it" .... you probably won't.
The cosmetic stuff? Blemmed is just fine with me.
A can of Duracoat is cheap!
- Is there a difference between the $2.00 handguard cap from RRA and the $15 piece from someone else?
Yes, Colt handguard caps have sharper radius bends and a more consistent handguard lock up.
- Is there anything inherently wrong with the $4.00 A2 flash hider from DPMS vs the $9.00 A2 flash hider from Daniel Defense?
Colt flash hiders have a more consistent wrench flat dimension and do not distort flats as easy.
- Is there ANY difference in quality between ANY ejection port cover ANYWHERE?
- Does anyone expect the $18.00 forward assist button from Brownell's to outperform or outlast the $8.00 button from Midway?
I would suspect that mil spec parts like this have their components pinned in better.
- Is any one gas tube better than another? (I know, I know... this actually IS a critical component, but is it even possible to manufacture a bad one?)
Compare a Colt tube to aftermarket, the Colt tube has more defined ends and more defined contours.
- Is your life in jeopardy if you buy your castle nut from
Del-Ton? What if you buy your endplate from Model 1?
- Is there such a thing as an "inferior" receiver extension (provided that it's within specifications and it fits)?
Almost all aftermarket endplates and lock rings are shit and don't stake worth a damn or dont sit flush on the rear of the lower.
- Aesthetics notwithstanding, has anyones trigger guard ever "failed" on them?
Colt trigger guards have a chamfered roll pin hole to guide the roll pin in to prevent breaking of lower ears.
Arcana,
When I was in the military overseas we had an M4 (Colt) where the BCG completely froze up. It wouldn't move no matter what I did. I assumed that something was jammed inside the upper.
I removed the entire buttstock assembly to discover that the pawl on the forward assist broke off. The forward assist consists of a pawl, joined to the forward assist by a roll pin, and a spring. In the end the upper receiver was damaged beyond repair and had to be replaced.
So that was pretty much a catastrophic malfunction. This was with a milspec Colt M4 carbine. Anything can break at any time. So why take chance by buying something like that of unknown origins?
What Iraqgunz is saying is very important: the weakest link in a chain determines the strength of the chain. Two examples unrelated to guns, but relevant to the point. A retired friend ran an automotive transmission manufacturing plant back in Germany in the 80's when "Japanese quality" began kicking American and German ass. He subsequently moved to Canada and ran an alternator plant that supplied Ford and GM. He told me that the single most common QC problem they had with their transmissions was that company policy mandated the use of cheap roll pins from the lowest bidder. When these tiny, apparently insignificant $.00001 parts failed, usually due to poor tolerances or bad heat treatment, the $250 transmissions failed. But with millions of these cheap parts being used annually, it added up to a lot of money that the greedy executives could not justify spending. The Japanese used machined pins, with proper tolerances and heat treatment, double checked for quality, a policy that naturally resulted in dramatically fewer failures, and much higher customer satisfaction. Over time, American and German manufacturers got tired of losing market share to the Japanese and decided (after it was too late, frankly) to use the better quality parts they should have used from the beginning. It wasn't that the Japanese designs were that much better (at least back then). The problem was substituting cheap small parts and selling them as top quality to the consumer. This happens in the AR world too, and I can give you an example if you want it, although it will piss one of the moderators off since the culprit is his buddy.
Example two. I have owned two Nissan Maximas. Even though it is Japanese made, everything but the engine and drivetrain is American design. The power windows rely on a plastic part to link the electric motor/cable/window frame. This link is good for ten years or so, but it always go bad, and the windows fall down into the doors. The designers new it was a "weak link" but the design life was ten years, and plastic was good enough for a part hidden from the consumer's eye.
If the gun is a toy, I suppose it doesn't matter that small, cheap parts might ruin it as in Iraqgunz's excellent example. But since you will not be buying hundreds of thousands of guns, and since you will personally and directly suffer if small, apparently insignificant hidden substandard parts fail, and since the incremental cost of using reliable parts is relatively small, a wise man will will buy the best LPK he can get his hands on, especially if you take your guns seriously.
ForTehNguyen
09-29-10, 14:09
IMO the upper and BCG are the most important parts
Dos Cylindros
09-29-10, 14:45
IMO the upper and BCG are the most important parts
Agreed, the only things from your original list that I would also think is important are the forward assist and the receiver extention. Bravo Co. has a write up in their section explaining why the true milspec forward assists are stronger, and all milspec receiver extentions are not the same.
When some companies say their receiver extention is milspec, they are talking about the demention. Most are not constructed of the correct steel, nor do the have the receiver threads rolled in correctly, which results in a stronger extention tube. For receiver extentions, I would stay with Colt, BCM and LMT (LMT being my favorite). Both Colt and LMT are nicley polished inside which results in smoother running of the spring and buffer. I don't know about the BCM unit.
As far as the A2 flash hider, the gun works with or without it on so it is not an important part in terms of reliability/durability of the weapon. Things like the wrench flat specs don't have any effect on the function of the gun, they only let you put it on with less potential for damaging the finish.
The handgaurd cap, again the gun will shoot without it, so other than the previously mentioned fit and finish issues it is not important in my opinion (not that it's worth much).
Trigger guard, again I don't see much of an issue.
We all know that Colt is the gold standard, and I won't argue that point. But this whole milspec, TDP thing has gotten just a bit out of hand. Obviously there is nothing to be argued about the BCG, HP/MPI testing, and use of correct steel and aluminum as that stuff just makes sense. But, you can have a durable and reliable weapon if you choose to go cheap on the non-critical parts (like flash hiders).
My agency issues a mix of Bushmaster and Colt select fire carbines. The Bushmasters have the staking issues fixed, have H buffers and guess what....they run fine. They hold up to repeated full auto burst strings of fire during our qual courses and training days, and nobody has had any real trouble with them. My issue gun is a Colt, and I am happy about that, but once the issues are addressed, the Bushmasters have served my agency fine. I am not a Bushmaster lover, nor do I intend to turn this into a Bushmaster gets a bad rap thread as we all know they do have some issues. I just point it out to show that once you address some issues, they can serve you fine. (ETA...sorry I just realized you were not the OP, point still stands though).
As far as the A2 flash hider, the gun works with or without it on so it is not an important part in terms of reliability/durability of the weapon. Things like the wrench flat specs don't have any effect on the function of the gun, they only let you put it on with less potential for damaging the finish.
The handgaurd cap, again the gun will shoot without it, so other than the previously mentioned fit and finish issues it is not important in my opinion (not that it's worth much).
Trigger guard, again I don't see much of an issue.
We all know that Colt is the gold standard, and I won't argue that point. But this whole milspec, TDP thing has gotten just a bit out of hand. Obviously there is nothing to be argued about the BCG, HP/MPI testing, and use of correct steel and aluminum as that stuff just makes sense. But, you can have a durable and reliable weapon if you choose to go cheap on the non-critical parts (like flash hiders).
While this stuff might not have a major impact on fuction, it does have a major impact of the reputation of the builder that put the gun together.
Things like wrench flat marks and scuffs on the upper receiver from a vice block are unacceptable.
Non factory assembly marks are unacceptable.
I believe that the issues you will see with the Bushamsters will manifest themselves down the road, especially as the gas ports begin to erode. You should see if your department will splurge for a Hawkeye Borescope and do some checking of the Colts and BM's.
Agreed, the only things from your original list that I would also think is important are the forward assist and the receiver extention. Bravo Co. has a write up in their section explaining why the true milspec forward assists are stronger, and all milspec receiver extentions are not the same.
When some companies say their receiver extention is milspec, they are talking about the demention. Most are not constructed of the correct steel, nor do the have the receiver threads rolled in correctly, which results in a stronger extention tube. For receiver extentions, I would stay with Colt, BCM and LMT (LMT being my favorite). Both Colt and LMT are nicley polished inside which results in smoother running of the spring and buffer. I don't know about the BCM unit.
As far as the A2 flash hider, the gun works with or without it on so it is not an important part in terms of reliability/durability of the weapon. Things like the wrench flat specs don't have any effect on the function of the gun, they only let you put it on with less potential for damaging the finish.
The handgaurd cap, again the gun will shoot without it, so other than the previously mentioned fit and finish issues it is not important in my opinion (not that it's worth much).
Trigger guard, again I don't see much of an issue.
We all know that Colt is the gold standard, and I won't argue that point. But this whole milspec, TDP thing has gotten just a bit out of hand. Obviously there is nothing to be argued about the BCG, HP/MPI testing, and use of correct steel and aluminum as that stuff just makes sense. But, you can have a durable and reliable weapon if you choose to go cheap on the non-critical parts (like flash hiders).
My agency issues a mix of Bushmaster and Colt select fire carbines. The Bushmasters have the staking issues fixed, have H buffers and guess what....they run fine. They hold up to repeated full auto burst strings of fire during our qual courses and training days, and nobody has had any real trouble with them. My issue gun is a Colt, and I am happy about that, but once the issues are addressed, the Bushmasters have served my agency fine. I am not a Bushmaster lover, nor do I intend to turn this into a Bushmaster gets a bad rap thread as we all know they do have some issues. I just point it out to show that once you address some issues, they can serve you fine. (ETA...sorry I just realized you were not the OP, point still stands though).
Dos Cylindros
09-29-10, 22:00
I believe that the issues you will see with the Bushamsters will manifest themselves down the road, especially as the gas ports begin to erode. You should see if your department will splurge for a Hawkeye Borescope and do some checking of the Colts and BM's.
Gunz, I am sure you are right as I know you have some very good practical experience. Some of the Bushys are very old and still run fine with proper PM. Once they start to show serious problems from over use or just wearing out, our department just scraps them for the newer Colts that have been what they are buying for some time now.
Interestingly enough, some of our Bushy barrels are stamped MP and or HP (I forget which right now) which is something I noticed while running our last quarterly tactical training. I don't know what vintage year Bushy may or may not have done these things, but I was supprised to see it. I also wonder if they do in fact do this for the LE/Mil class 3 guns.
I was certainly not trying to imply that the Bushy is equal to the Colt and I hope that was evident in my post. I will freely admit that the Bushys my agency still has run fine and I would trust them as my issue gun. I am just lucky I have one of the new Colts :D
Bushmaster marks them B MP. It is a marketing gimmick that they use to "confuse" people in to thinking they are like Colts with their CMP marking.
FWIW- I emailed Bushamster 3 days ago to ask a few simple questions. I am still waiting.......
Gunz, I am sure you are right as I know you have some very good practical experience. Some of the Bushys are very old and still run fine with proper PM. Once they start to show serious problems from over use or just wearing out, our department just scraps them for the newer Colts that have been what they are buying for some time now.
Interestingly enough, some of our Bushy barrels are stamped MP and or HP (I forget which right now) which is something I noticed while running our last quarterly tactical training. I don't know what vintage year Bushy may or may not have done these things, but I was supprised to see it. I also wonder if they do in fact do this for the LE/Mil class 3 guns.
I was certainly not trying to imply that the Bushy is equal to the Colt and I hope that was evident in my post. I will freely admit that the Bushys my agency still has run fine and I would trust them as my issue gun. I am just lucky I have one of the new Colts :D
While it's outside the scope of M4C, I say either do one or the other. Either Scrimp completely and buy the cheapest POS you can find, or buy Spike's quality at a minimum.
You can still build an $500 Franken-gun from brand new parts.
This gives you a $300 cushion, max, for ammo and "fixing" of your POS. Fortunately for me, when I was in my "cheap AR" phase, I worked in an aviation shop and could jury rig/fabricate about anything, so I could shoot a couple thousand rounds of ammo with that price difference, and consider the fixing of the POS AR as a learning experience.
I just don't get why you'd scrimp and save $50 on a $1000+ carbine.
I cannot for the life of me consider spending twice as much on a VLTOR tube for any of my rifles.That's kind of what I was thinking.I removed the entire buttstock assembly to discover that the pawl on the forward assist broke off.And that's exactly why I was asking. Thank you.Colt handguard... Colt flash hiders... Colt tube... Colt trigger guards....Colt. Got it. Understood.I just don't get why you'd scrimp and save $50 on a $1000+ carbine.Well, let's say you only have $950. :sad:
Again... thanks for all the input, guys.
Practice Ammo.
I bought cheap magazines, caused two... I wouldn't call them weapon malfunctions necessarily, then again it halted function.
I shop deals. I buy quality, but I sure do shop the crap out of deals for quality.
I find when you buy good quality stuff, you forget how much you paid for it, but you know you don't regret it months, years, etc. down the road.
I've also bought stuff for cheap and been plagued by issues or spent money "fixing" it that I could've spent the same amount or less and had no problems from the word go.
I never seem to get a break when I buy cheap stuff.
I would say do things like using standard GI handguards, instead of a rail is a smart way to save money. Also buy things as you can afford them. You do not need it all at once. I know if I were buying now I would buy a BCM blemished lower you get it for $250 you will have shipping $15 and you may have a transfer fee too. You will need a stock say $25 on the EE board here.
Buy quality used gear when possible. That will save you money w/o compromising quality gear.
BCM uppers are on sale now for $385 add a BCG and standard CH when you buy an upper you get for $520. You will need a BUIS and handguards. There are Matech sights on sale on the EE for $46 and handguards for about $16. That is everything on a good kiss rifle, for less than $900 w/o shipping.
For 950.00 you can put together a good carbine- simple yet good.
Buy this lower assembled- http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=124
Buy this upper- http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm
and add in the BCG. Then buy a Magpul MOE handguard. That will be you at around 980.00.
I have said 100 times on this site. Unless you know that the world is ending tomorrow and you need it now, wait a little longer and get something good. You could buy the upper or lower now, wait another two months and then get the remainder.
If you are stressing on this, then you won't have the money to buy ammo and mags which means you have an expensive club.
That's kind of what I was thinking.And that's exactly why I was asking. Thank you.Colt. Got it. Understood.Well, let's say you only have $950. :sad:
Again... thanks for all the input, guys.
Excellent advice from IG. One more thing wit the 16" middy you can add a bayonet so you have a spear too.
Great advice IG...I would also consider subbing out a BCM seconds lower..can save a few more bucks, and still have all the right parts and quality.
I have been eyeing a BCM blemished lower. I have almost bought one several times. I just have other bills/priorities right now. $250 is an awesome deal though even just to squirrel away for a later date.
For 950.00 you can put together a good carbine- simple yet good.
Buy this lower assembled- http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=124
Buy this upper- http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm
and add in the BCG. Then buy a Magpul MOE handguard. That will be you at around 980.00.
I have said 100 times on this site. Unless you know that the world is ending tomorrow and you need it now, wait a little longer and get something good. You could buy the upper or lower now, wait another two months and then get the remainder.
If you are stressing on this, then you won't have the money to buy ammo and mags which means you have an expensive club.
Truth.
I'm going to tell a short story, I decided I wanted my first AR-15 last October/November (I fired my first AR at the 2009 Silencer Shoot), then about a month or so later I had a friend come into town and shot his AR, I was at a cross roads of building an AR, or getting a .22 host and .22 can.
I decided to go AR, ironically I installed MOE Midlength Handguards on my BCM AR today.
But, honestly, it was a long road.
It started as a MOE FDE Pistol Grip Traded for a Black Magpul MIAD (once I had a $20 Pistol Grip... I knew I had committed and there was no turning back, funny how some minor things "seal the deal"), I then purchased a BCM Complete lower with Magpul CTR, in March.
Then I bought an LMT Ambi Selector in late March/Early April.
Then I bought the upper receiver (BCM Mid Length, Mod 4 CH) in Early June, with M16 BCG.
July I bought my BCM (Troy marked BCM) BUIS, August I bought an KAC Ambi-Mag Release.
Last week I bought my handguards to replace the standard ones.
I've still got an Aimpoint ML3, Surefire G2 (with some kind of mounting configuration), BCE 1.0 Battle Comp and BFG Vickers Tactical Padded Sling (Unsure of configuration) and I'm done with this rifle.
My brother was looking at the rifle today, and was making comments on how he really liked it now, etc, I told him "Yeah... I started this a Year ago as a Pistol Grip (A Broken one that Magpul replaced I might add)" I've known what I was going to build for over a year, it's just taken time to build it.
I bought an Browning .22 Buckmark instead of the Lower, otherwise I'd be a lot ahead, and I'm saving for an Arsenal SGL 21.
But I'd say, buy quality.
If I had them available I would've bought a blem BCM lower.
I mean dude, 250$ for the BCM Lower ($373 with MIAD and CTR Installed) from G&R,
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM)
$591 for a BCM Mid Length Upper (BCM M16 BCG, Cav Arms HG, BCM Mod 4 CH)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM)
I mean are you kidding me? That's $964 total.
Also rails, are great for mounting lights, slings and vertical foregrips. (ETA: I forgot to finish this, but they're not a necessity, I mean I don't have them, but, I was pricing an SBR today, and I've already got most of the way saved for an AK... I just don't see the point to make a massive expenditure for a rail, there are ways to figure things out without a railed handguard)
Sure you'll need to save for a BUIS, but damn, you can put a $50 Magpul BUIS on there if you just have to have one.
I like nice stuff, but I shop for deals, and honestly, for your AR needs... G&R's hard to beat, quick with questions, easy to get along with.
I do as much business with the guy as possible, I've dealt with Bravo Company for products they sell as well, great company as well.
Heck I contacted them today, they sell an 11.5'' SBR (Factory SBR, same configuration as an 6933) minus carrying handle for $1025 (Mod 0) or with the carrying handle for (Mod 1 for $1135).
I'm just saying.
. Anything can break at any time. So why take chance by buying something like that of unknown origins?
I gotta believe that some of the el cheapo AR15 parts are made in China these days. Does anyone know for sure?
Captain America7
10-05-10, 11:41
Always...when in doubt ask. There are enough forums out there. I have been worried in the past about the "cheap parts". If you can find someone that has bought the part already, they are gonna be able to tell you if it is worth it, or not.
jklaughrey
10-05-10, 13:21
At the the off chance of sounding like a record. My grandfather always said to buy quality, period. If you don't have the funds...save! Quality will always be reliable and you won't have to second guess your purchase.
And for a slightly contrary point of view: Too many stake their ego on brand name and how they lay out their ultimate list of parts. When it comes right down to it, some parts are a commodity, and paying double gets you nothing but bragging rights.
Start with lowers, if there is a rollmark on it, it has fanboys. What you don't hear about are the ones that give no fuss in assembly and keep on ticking. There are only a handful of lower forgers, and not even Colt does it. They buy platters from outside and machine to their specs. So do a dozen others, and more.
You don't have to buy a Colt LPK to get beveled roll pins, other kits have them, mine did. You can assemble a lower and upper without expensive blocks and tools. What if it does get a mark? Ten years of use will diminish that as much as dragging it down the driveway. Well, how many buy jeans stonewashed and faded? Kinda poser to the old school. Shiny new doesn't last either.
Any part of the gun can break, milspec or not. Choose which ones you want on them. It's arguable if a forward assist is needed, or even a good solution to the problem of misfeeds. And since the preferred action to misfeeds is to eject, it then leads to the question, where should the charging handle be?
Center charging handles are ambidextrous but force the user to remove the weapon from the shoulder. Side charging handles, used by the support hand, allow the user to keep a sight picture and pick up the target much faster when chambered. Most combat rifles use side charger handles, the newest on either side interchangeably.
A case could be made for a left side charge A3 upper with no forward assist, and by comparing the SCAR, ACR, XCR, and others, you could save a bundle. That would be a different kind of savings, an ergonomic layout without the expense of a new firearm.
This all goes a lot deeper than just saving a buck not buying Tier one. And caliber hasn't even been mentioned.
jklaughrey
10-09-10, 23:47
Let's reiterate, buying quality parts doesn't make you a "fan boy". Do the research, crunch the numbers and make your purchase. I think you missed some people points here Tirod, "we", as in most don't buy name brand parts to boost our ego's. We buy them based on the TDP and consistent quality and CS.
No one ever said that milspec parts won't break. But since they are held to a higher standard why would you knowingly choose parts that haven't been scrutinized? Especially if your life is on the line.
In my 24 years of experience of using the AR and having seen the various nightmares over the years (just check out these boards on a daily basis) if you buy some cheap shit you will get cheap shit results.
As far as lowers go. I could care less about "rollmarks". What I do want is for the lower to be in spec and for the parts to fit as they should. Generally that means buying from manufacturers that have a track record.
if you truly believe that "parts are parts" you have alot to learn about the AR. Whether you choose to do so or not is entirely up to you.
And for a slightly contrary point of view: Too many stake their ego on brand name and how they lay out their ultimate list of parts. When it comes right down to it, some parts are a commodity, and paying double gets you nothing but bragging rights.
Start with lowers, if there is a rollmark on it, it has fanboys. What you don't hear about are the ones that give no fuss in assembly and keep on ticking. There are only a handful of lower forgers, and not even Colt does it. They buy platters from outside and machine to their specs. So do a dozen others, and more.
You don't have to buy a Colt LPK to get beveled roll pins, other kits have them, mine did. You can assemble a lower and upper without expensive blocks and tools. What if it does get a mark? Ten years of use will diminish that as much as dragging it down the driveway. Well, how many buy jeans stonewashed and faded? Kinda poser to the old school. Shiny new doesn't last either.
Any part of the gun can break, milspec or not. Choose which ones you want on them. It's arguable if a forward assist is needed, or even a good solution to the problem of misfeeds. And since the preferred action to misfeeds is to eject, it then leads to the question, where should the charging handle be?
Center charging handles are ambidextrous but force the user to remove the weapon from the shoulder. Side charging handles, used by the support hand, allow the user to keep a sight picture and pick up the target much faster when chambered. Most combat rifles use side charger handles, the newest on either side interchangeably.
A case could be made for a left side charge A3 upper with no forward assist, and by comparing the SCAR, ACR, XCR, and others, you could save a bundle. That would be a different kind of savings, an ergonomic layout without the expense of a new firearm.
This all goes a lot deeper than just saving a buck not buying Tier one. And caliber hasn't even been mentioned.
The idea is to buy good gear from good people. I've owned a Colt in the past and have no interest in one for personal reasons. LMT & BCM are my go to choices. They make great stuff that works, they have excellent customer service and their prices are great too.
polymorpheous
10-10-10, 09:36
Right now, with prices the way they are, this is how I would go..
BCM Blem lower w/ M4 stock - $270
BCM Upper w/ BCG & forged CH - $520
BCM Handguards - $20 - $23
Magpul MBUS - $55
Total = $866 - $868
Right now, with prices the way they are, this is how I would go..
BCM Blem lower w/ M4 stock - $270
BCM Upper w/ BCG & forged CH - $520
BCM Handguards - $20 - $23
Magpul MBUS - $55
Total = $866 - $868
That is a great price for an awesome rifle. Hopefully their prices stay steady through Christmas so when my wife asks what I want I can say a gift card from G&R or BCM.
If your occupation is to come into direct conflict with other armed individuals, it would be silly to recommend a cheap gun. It would be better than no gun, but better yet with inspected and tested parts.
What you don't hear is "Ok, if it's just a range or hunting gun, you don't really need Tier One. Even the Bargain Bin would do for sporting and fun."
Why is that so hard to say? If the activity could be done just as well with a civilian bolt or lever gun, why insist the AR must be Tier One milspec and nothing less, as it is EVERY time.
No it does not need to be - for fun and sport. If it's for defense against an opponent attempting to end your life, why take it that someone is recommending a lesser gun?
Of course not.
If anything, it confuses the distinct difference in use to insist on Tier One when it simply is not needed. How does spending hundreds more improve the experience of shooting an inexpensive AR on a basis of a couple of times a year, and maybe hunting.
A lot of owners are NOT going out every weekend with a couple of hundred rounds and tweaking their CQB responses. If anything, they get the darn thing and plan on actually shooting it "the next chance they get," "next month," "when find the time." They actually have a decorator rifle in the corner of the bedroom drooling oil onto the carpet.
On the other hand, a police officer gets an issue M16A1 with carry handle, fixed stock, and the full auto parts deleted, and lives with the fact it has over 10,000 rounds through it with no parts replaced - because as we know, the Army has NO maintenance program, much less a preventive one.
We buy what we want, I don't need an MPI bolt individually inspected, the batch will do. I don't need the correct alloy barrel, with chrome, and frankly can do better without, for less. I don't need to use those parts because quite honestly, it may take the rest of my life to put 5,000 rounds down range with it. And it will do just fine.
Those who plan to run 5K rounds in theirs before the end of this year certainly know better than to listen to the advice. And those who will and don't know better will likely be ISSUED the proper weapon first.
I see good intent in recommending milspec, but after a certain point, it becomes an agenda of imposing a decision with out all the facts. And it is not necessarily the best thing to suggest only a TDP weapon as the only answer. The existence of a large number of other military weapons in use or being tested shows there still can be improvements.
Step back and look at the bigger picture.
jklaughrey
10-10-10, 19:19
You be happy with what you purchase Mr. Tirod, and leave us that do actually put rounds downrange weekly or sometimes daily, and depend upon said rifle for our lives make our purchases based upon sound judgment and the TDP. Granted there are no guarantees, but those of us who do the research and math know that there is a far less chance of failure when using quality parts in a weapon.
Go ahead and shoot dirt, we will use our weapons for a far greater calling when needed and know that they will function as expected. Who knows we might be the LEO/Soldier who saves your life or the life of your loved ones with the weapon we made sure to invest quality into. Or would you prefer we use a "Fudd" gun and hope it works when needed to render you the much needed assistance.
Good day!
Tirod
I think you have some good points. Only you know what you truly want and need. The problem is people are not always as clear as you are. Other people are dishonest and will say something is is just as good as X Y or Z when it is not. I like to save money but there are some things I will not buy with the intent of saving money. Guns and toilet paper come to mind. I buy regular gas for my truck that is all she needs. I buy good TP and LMT & BCM AR's. The TP is kinda a joke but true. You end up using twice the single ply and it is uncomfortable. MRE toilet paper made me appreciate real TP. I also think for the price difference you can buy a great gun at times for less than a POS gun.
The BCM gun for about $880 as recently posted is a great gun and a great price.
To me, Tirod used to have a point. But no longer. Currently, the price of good ARs is so low, that to advocate a cheap AR is to advocate paying near the same price or more as a professional grade one.
About the cheapest POS will run you $700, which is S&W land, price-wise. Most of these turds with a magazine are in excess of $800, which is Spike's/BCM land.
So in practicality, you are saying it's "ok" to advocate Elmer Fudd to go ahead and buy that $950 DPMS piece of garbage at Gander Mountain/Bass Pro, because he can't tell the difference between that and a similarly priced good gun.
At current prices, there is no justification for buying anything but tier 1.
polymorpheous
10-10-10, 20:48
At current prices, there is no justification for buying anything but tier 1.
You speak the truth.
I'll make it as simple as possible. "A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus."
Simply put buy a good AR and you can do everything else with it also.
Here is a better scenario- You are driving back from the range with your "range AR" and you are involved in a deadly force situation. You grab your "range AR" and go to use it and it fails and you die.
How much money did you just save? Is it really worth it? It's not like we can predict when a situation is going to happen. So instead of rushing out to buy a piece of crap to satisfy some self gratification and being able to say "hey I have a cool looking AR rifle". Save your money and buy a decent gun. Like the Colt that CDNN has on sale now. Or build one like I did for my wife that cost me less than 800.00. I haveno doubt it will hold up, because I didn't cut corners and kept it simple.
In my experience here and elsewhere there are always those who will fail to see the light.
If your occupation is to come into direct conflict with other armed individuals, it would be silly to recommend a cheap gun. It would be better than no gun, but better yet with inspected and tested parts.
What you don't hear is "Ok, if it's just a range or hunting gun, you don't really need Tier One. Even the Bargain Bin would do for sporting and fun."
Why is that so hard to say? If the activity could be done just as well with a civilian bolt or lever gun, why insist the AR must be Tier One milspec and nothing less, as it is EVERY time.
No it does not need to be - for fun and sport. If it's for defense against an opponent attempting to end your life, why take it that someone is recommending a lesser gun?
Of course not.
If anything, it confuses the distinct difference in use to insist on Tier One when it simply is not needed. How does spending hundreds more improve the experience of shooting an inexpensive AR on a basis of a couple of times a year, and maybe hunting.
A lot of owners are NOT going out every weekend with a couple of hundred rounds and tweaking their CQB responses. If anything, they get the darn thing and plan on actually shooting it "the next chance they get," "next month," "when find the time." They actually have a decorator rifle in the corner of the bedroom drooling oil onto the carpet.
On the other hand, a police officer gets an issue M16A1 with carry handle, fixed stock, and the full auto parts deleted, and lives with the fact it has over 10,000 rounds through it with no parts replaced - because as we know, the Army has NO maintenance program, much less a preventive one.
We buy what we want, I don't need an MPI bolt individually inspected, the batch will do. I don't need the correct alloy barrel, with chrome, and frankly can do better without, for less. I don't need to use those parts because quite honestly, it may take the rest of my life to put 5,000 rounds down range with it. And it will do just fine.
Those who plan to run 5K rounds in theirs before the end of this year certainly know better than to listen to the advice. And those who will and don't know better will likely be ISSUED the proper weapon first.
I see good intent in recommending milspec, but after a certain point, it becomes an agenda of imposing a decision with out all the facts. And it is not necessarily the best thing to suggest only a TDP weapon as the only answer. The existence of a large number of other military weapons in use or being tested shows there still can be improvements.
Step back and look at the bigger picture.
"A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus." So, a 10 ga goose gun used in Michigan during the season needs to be milspec?
Sure, that's taking things out of context - just as much as some have taken my words out of context. I never had a problem carrying my issue M16 a nothing, or it's two replacements over the 22 years I served in the Army Reserve, Infantry, Ordnance, MP.
And saying milspec is now so cheap there's no reason to buy lesser isn't a justification. That isn't a fact, it's an assumption of the quality that is extremely hard to verify. Use the Chart, pick the best you can, and you're still left with this: it only counts for the M4. Good luck with any other form of M16 on the open market.
Frankly, the milspec myth is that if all the components are verifiably so, you'd have the inspection paperwork and the stamped signoff from the Tank and Armaments Command. It would be engraved US GOVERNMENT PROPERTY, and Uncle Sam would like you to put it under his lock and key when it's not in use. No semi auto AR15 qualifies, and never will.
Very few weekend shooters need that level of impeccable reliability, and as a retired soldier, I know for a fact it's not a guarantee even if the gun is properly marked. Lowest contract bidder doesn't get me a Noveske. I got Saginaws or FN's. I earned my veteran's status on duty with an M9.
In America, you can buy what you want, and if you have the money, sure, go ahead. That is not going to happen for others - a budget exists, whether on paper or in the back of the wallet, and if the goal is a plinking gun for the weekend and hunting, it's not up to some pompous poster on the innerweb to tell them they will probably get killed getting a CMMG Bargain Bin special. Get over it - Americans can buy what they think they need, whether its a Club Cab F350 Diesel for the daily commute, or a Raven .32 for concealed carry. They make the decision and live with it. It often irks me no end, too.
If you are not confronting armed criminals or being shot at on a daily basis, then it's OK to buy a non-M4, non-milspec gun and shoot dirt. No, some of us can't find another $50 to blow on a hobby gun. That's our ammo budget for the year. Life isn't all about getting what you want sometimes, needs usually get met first, not toys.
I'm glad I don't need to carry an LCP every minute of the day, it's not milspec, a military caliber, and it will probably kill me even if I never need it. Is that what I'm being told?
jklaughrey
10-11-10, 11:21
You inability to grasp such a simple concept as reliable quality parts from vetted manufacturer's befuddles me. I am done here, you enjoy life as you see fit. It is your right. Cheers and I hope that 50.00 annual ammo budget is a joke. :eek:
If your occupation is to come into direct conflict with other armed individuals, it would be silly to recommend a cheap gun. It would be better than no gun, but better yet with inspected and tested parts.
What you don't hear is "Ok, if it's just a range or hunting gun, you don't really need Tier One. Even the Bargain Bin would do for sporting and fun."
Why is that so hard to say? If the activity could be done just as well with a civilian bolt or lever gun, why insist the AR must be Tier One milspec and nothing less, as it is EVERY time.
Because most other guns do not have aftermarket clones.
I cannot go buy a lower grade aftermarket clone of a Remington 870 or Benelli M1.
I cannot buy a lower grade aftermarket clone of a Winchester M70 or Accuracy International AW.
I cannot go buy a lower grade clone of a Glock 17 or S&W model 29.
Why should my AR15 be any different?
Tirod -
Your argument on the impossibility of determining milspec is specious. Your lower level rifles can be demonstrated to have serious issues at an alarming rate.
Let's say your hypothetical person who can afford a $600 toy, but who only has $50 for ammo for the year buys said $600 toy, and it doesn't work. Which, btw, is definitely a possibility. And, because he bought a piece of junk, the company makes customer service untenable (which is more likely than not).
Now, your hypothetical consumer has a paperweight, which he must now spend a couple hundred on to get to work. For the $800+ and the hassle involved, he could've bought a quality gun, made to match mil-spec, using quality parts.
BTW, I am singularly unimpressed by your use of your military service to bolster your argument. It is irrelevant at best, and at worst continues to reinforce the idea that military service-members are ignorant about what constitutes a good weapon and how to make it run.
BTW, I am singularly unimpressed by your use of your military service to bolster your argument. It is irrelevant at best, and at worst continues to reinforce the idea that military service-members are ignorant about what constitutes a good weapon and how to make it run.
That and the number of service and former service members on this board... And from areas where they generally might give more of a sh*t about it...
Tirod
Buy what makes you happy. The OP asked some questions and we all shared our opinions and experience. This decision is his and ours to make.
I am going to allow this thread to continue on against my better judgment.
Tirod,
The fact that you were in the military makes your POV even more hard to believe. Unfortunately you are in the small group of people who refuse to see just how non-sensible your position is.
Do me a favor. Take a few days to read some threads here. Look for threads where people ask for help because their new out of the box or slightly used AR won't function. The common denominator is that they are for the most part garbage guns that should never have been allowed to be sold in the first place.
Simple things like crooked FSB's, too large or too small gas ports, or lower receivers that are out of spec. I am sure you know what I am saying. In the end they have a gun that won't even cycle a few rounds of ammo. Once they have spent the money to fix it or sold it off at a loss, they could have bought a quality gun from the beginning.
Wow. All I wanted when I started this was to know if there were any truly "acceptable" areas to shave a few dollars off the cost of a build.
You know, like: "Who cares who made your ejection port cover?" and stuff like that. Had I only known....
Wow. All I wanted when I started this was to know if there were any truly "acceptable" areas to shave a few dollars off the cost of a build.
You know, like: "Who cares who made your ejection port cover?" and stuff like that. Had I only known....
See what you started! I admit I want one of these ejection port covers with the Greek Saying Come and Take It. Not the Zombie stuff.
http://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=304&pictureid=1460
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=40362/Product/AR_15_M16_ENGRAVED_EJECTION_PORT_COVER#
I have a few Noveske "C*ck Fag" covers and they work fine. I really don't think an ejection port is critical.
Wow. All I wanted when I started this was to know if there were any truly "acceptable" areas to shave a few dollars off the cost of a build.
You know, like: "Who cares who made your ejection port cover?" and stuff like that. Had I only known....
Yeah I still have to play nice my 2, 5 & 8 year olds would ask too many questions! Dang kids! :sarcastic:
Wow. All I wanted when I started this was to know if there were any truly "acceptable" areas to shave a few dollars off the cost of a build.
You know, like: "Who cares who made your ejection port cover?" and stuff like that. Had I only known....
Do you really think that a dollar here or a dollar there will make a difference in the absolute final cost of a gun?
And since M4C is dedicated to serious weapons, the dollar or two you can save is especially inconsequential compared to the thousands of dollars of ammunition you SHOULD be sending downrange.
That is, unless you are buying a safe queen.
I've been down this road before. Like I said earlier, I am the King of the cheapskates, but I have now come to the conclusion that it is not worth it.
The title of this forum section is "CUSTOM BUILD FORUM" You know the difference between "Custom" and "Milspec."
Point being, there is a lot of fluff on the market that exists simply to make money for the manufacturer. It has no real measurable value that adds reliability or increases hit probability. These parts cannot be milspec because they will never be included in the TDP, and won't ever be issue. Frankly, most are dress up parts for Barbie guns, and the market is pumping out more of that every day.
The ejection port cover pictured is a classic example - a waste of money to pimp out a tool. It does Zero, Zip, Nada to improve hit probability. In my opinion, that kind of decoration is 1) completely useless, and 2) entirely justified to be in the custom section.
Nothing wrong with quality, but Milspec is a minimum standard for a heavily used burst fire guns. If you aren't doing that, it's not mandatory, and may be entirely wrong for a custom built gun.
Which barrel is better for precision slow fire shooting: chrome lined milspec, or a slightly lesser grade steel, nonchromed? Use the latter, you could better afford a free float tube and get more accuracy out of the package. Trigger? $200 adjustable, or $8 adjustment screw to take the creep out? On a field rifle for hunting, the latter is safer, and just as good - and uses cheaper milspec parts.
Expensive parts are not always the best, most needed, or even justified. Milspec parts are not always the best, most needed, or even justified. Just drawing a line in the sand means someone doesn't want to think and analyze what they can really do for a CUSTOM BUILD GUN. It may mean choosing the cheaper part, which does just as good - because it works, and doesn't take the kids school lunch money to do it.
It certainly could be milspec - and then made better. It would even be cheaper, such as chopping a GI FSB for a low pro gas block. You don't have to buy the more expensive custom ones if you think through it, and that's the point I'm making. There are ways to save a buck. It works both ways on a custom build gun.
jklaughrey
10-13-10, 11:18
I think part of the issue at hand is that I dare say most of us here on M4C have the mindset that we need or desire a weapon that follows TDP, or as close to when purchasing parts. Reasoning is for function and proven reliability. Quite a few of us have to depend upon said weapons under extreme circumstance, either daily or when called upon to do so. I can understand your argument, and I suppose for a "safe queen" or a hobbyist shooter it would seem logical. Although most would argue that a weapon should be first and foremost, esp. this style of weapon as a "battle rifle/HD, etc.." type format. Therefore desiring quality parts and vetted manufacturers' of said parts is not only a key component, but vital to those of us who do depend upon said weapon. You bring up cost issue and saving money, hey who doesn't want that right? But ponder this you will spend the amount your weapon cost a few times over on training, gear, and ammo. If you are having to scrimp on parts, an AR platform may not be the best choice if you can't afford decent ammo and training to use it effectively. Not trying to offend you but your argument is fundamentally inconsistent with the majority of members here on M4C.
Cheers.
The_Hammer_Man
10-13-10, 15:33
For most "custom builds" that I've done the first thing I asked the client was ....
"What do you want to be able to do with this rifle?"
"What will be it's primary purpose?"
"Will it be a collectors piece or a "work gun"?"
These questions, and more, are asked every time someone asks me to build them an upper or a complete weapon.
Once it's "final purpose" is determined the areas/parts that you can cut cost on become pretty apparent.
Now, before you get out your flamethrowers... I use the TDP and MilSpec as my STARTING POINT.
If the parts do not meet those basic standards I do NOT want them on a rifle that has my name down as it's builder. Call it proffessional pride, call it covering my ass liability wise. But, that's where I start.
Nifty doodad's like the personalized dust covers and the like are user specific and I'd never offer them as part of a build. If it doesn't add to the rifle's reliability or accuracy I don't install it. period.
Yes, it loses me customers at times. but I'd rather lose a potential sale then worry about giving some guy a weapon that I don't feel is built to maximum reliability standards.
In any case, a smart builder spends most of his money on his barrel,trigger and FF tube. The rest of the upper receiver parts NEED to be at least milspec if not better in order for them to be as reliable as possible.
I build rifles that I would want in my hands if the SHTF.
Dog is a dog... if it can do tricks.. cool.. but his primary job is to bark!
nuff said
jklaughrey
10-13-10, 15:38
I love you man, in a non gay manner. Excellent post. Pride in one's work is something that you don't see too often. But when you do it makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
Cheers!
The_Hammer_Man
10-13-10, 16:15
I love you man, in a non gay manner. Excellent post. Pride in one's work is something that you don't see too often. But when you do it makes you feel warm and fuzzy.
Cheers!
"some non-gay man-love back at ya... :)"
The whole.. where to cut costs thing has been the buggaboo of EVERY purchasing agent that ever existed. If any of you work for agencies or provide for agencies you know what I'm talking about. Their whole existences revolve around keeping costs to a minimum so that their end year reports look all rosey. Dumb but true.
If you work for , or provide for LEO or Gov agencies you will have to draw a line in the sand about what/where you will cut costs or use less than perfect parts.
The best way to keep them from railroading you into building crap weps is to give them documentation about reliability and life span of "less than milspec" parts.
Fact of life: Junk parts cost more, over time, than quality parts on average. This doesn't mean ALL the time.. but on the average.
Lets talk gas blocks.. not the most expensive part extant right? But, as you know, there are good gas blocks and BAD gas blocks. This part is one that is usually given the chop,quality wise, when building custom uppers for an agency.
If you determine a weapons intended purpose,, ie precision,tactical,competition,hunting, etc the parts list narrows dramatically.
12" tube on a carbine? That means I can use just about any milspec gas block I want to. As long as it fits under the tube and seals properly with the barrel/gas port. (IE, tighter than a misers fist on a cold winters night!)
The only time I'll use "designer label" gas blocks is if the build requires it, or , the customer requests it.
How many of you have a box of A2 or A1 FSB's?
(I have BOXES of the damn things!)
Time to cut and grind one down? thirty minutes max. Time to refinish? Five seconds (Duracoat is my friend :)
When a customer calls me and jabbers excitedly about how they like the rifle or upper I built them it DOES feel pretty dang good.
Doesn't matter if they're killing squirrels or pieces of paper at the range. If it puts bullets where you aim it EVERY time YOU do you your job right then I'm happy.
my sig SHOULD have read:
A dog is a dog.. if it can do tricks.. cool.. but his primary job is to bite!
nuff said
jklaughrey
10-13-10, 16:45
Agreed, and +5 on the sig.
I have a few Noveske "C*ck Fag" covers....Completely aside... I find it interesting that you self-censored one half of that, yet not the other.
I never said the ejection port cover was important or improved the gun. I just want one. I like the saying.
Big boy/girl rules. If you don't like it don't buy it. It is your money.
I'll make it as simple as possible. "A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus."
Bang on, right there. Firearms are capable of taking lives and must be able to do so when called upon by the shooter. From the little .22 pistol all the way up to the lever actioned 45-70 to the 10 gauge goose gun. Be sure that they all have been used to take and save lives. Certain types may fall outside this such as rail guns. Still, they could be used as sniper rifles though awkward to do so.
I have a couple of firearms that do not run 100%. One because I need to spend more time to get it right. Another needs overdue maintenance to replace worn springs and other small parts. I don't know if my life will depend on the reliability of a firearm and I hope I never have to find out. I will however, feel rather foolish because I got dead because I was caught out with "just a range gun".
Don't disparage shooting dirt. Many a round has been sent down range by myself, my family and good friends. It's one way we find out how well our weapons function and it's good practice shooting at a variety of targets in different conditions at guesstimated ranges. Not as serious as carbine classes nor formal as paper punching but much more fun and teaches it's own important lessons.
Far as where to scrimp? Identify what you need, what you want and what you'd like and be honest as to what fits into each category. For example, I need a forearm for my carbine, I want to be able to fit a good flashlight for home defense and I'd like the forearm to be made of composites. Original forearms are cheapest. Railed forearms are easiest to mount flashlights but cost more. Composite forearms that have rails are generally lighter and cooler to the hand when the carbine is run hard but also the good ones are expensive. I can scrimp by getting the original type forearms until I can afford a flashlight, appropriate mount and a free float forearm.
I need sights, I want optics and I'd like an ACOG. I can scrimp by using simple iron sights until I can afford a redot or Eotech or the Acog that I really want.
I need a barrel, I want a carbine and I'd like a 14.5 inch barrel with a Battlecomp 1.5. I can scrimp by installing a 16 inch barrel with an A2 birdcage until I can save up for the Battlecomp and the trip to Adco.
While scrimping, I may not have my ideal carbine or rifle, but I'll have something to shoot and will gain experience towards deciding what I'd really like to have
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