View Full Version : Why BCM???
JR TACTICAL
10-09-10, 23:44
I have been on M4C for a while now and have read alot and learned alot from alot of very well educated people but I have a question???
Why does everyone cream themselves over bcm rifles??? I am a Daniel Defense guy through and through and have yet to find a rifle (at least in the AR market) that comes close to the quality of DD. I have used and built a number of AR's now from DPMS, Rockriver, Noveske( which was close by the way ) and still have not found a compareable rifle to DD. Now that being said, I have never shot a BCM upper I have used a lower built by them but that is no way to judge quality and I am wondering does it come down to price??? or am I really missing out on something with BCM
Disclamer:
to all the people out there on M4C that love BCM, this is not a shot at them it is simply a question and I am looking to be educated
Slinger646
10-09-10, 23:51
Bang for the Buck. BCM has a lot of it.
My main bang-stick is a DD M4, but future builds will be BCM
ZuluDeltaBravo
10-09-10, 23:58
Quality.
Configurations.
Price.
Customer Service.
Most manufacturers have some of those attributes; only a select few have all. BCM and DD are in the "select few" that are synonomous with those terms.
When a company can give the consumer what they want, at a price that is comiserate with the current market, show flexability and a willingness to go the extra mile for the sake of the customer and produce a truly top tier product; that company tends to gain a loyal following.
Value. Warranty. Innovation. Variety. Customization. Reliability.
I belive that BCM is equal quality to your DD. BCM has been offering uppers and completes for longer, and has a better selection. That is why people here have such a hard-on for these two excellent companies that would never (IMO) bring a sub-par product to the table. You aren't missing out on anything by owning a Daniel Defense, but if/when you go to get another carbine, shop BCM's offerings with confidence as well as DD.
I own a BCM and an LMT, and would purchase a DD in a heartbeat.
BCM was the first company to attempt to build a weapon as close to the TDP as possible (outside Colt). Down to the little details that the other high quality options at the time left out. BCM did this based on feedback from shooters. Production halted for two years when quality parts could not be found. Their CS - though rarely needed - is quick and efficient.
Frankly, I am puzzled as to the high esteem with which DD is held. Yeah, they make great rails. I'm not convinced that the same quality extends to their other products.
Why does everyone cream themselves over bcm rifles???
I think you are reading a little too much into things. They make a good weapon, thats all there is to it. DD makes good stuff as well.
Frankly, I am puzzled as to the high esteem with which DD is held. Yeah, they make great rails. I'm not convinced that the same quality extends to their other products.
Not to start shit, but I also have not seen any real data from DD or LMT for that matter, on their testing or materials. SMEs (whom I trust) on this site seem to attest to their adherense to TDP and I believe BCM uses DD for their BHF barrels as well.
Do the companies that use DD barrels perform independent testing on them, or do they come tested from DD?
....and I believe BCM uses DD for their BHF barrels as well.
Is that a verified fact? Are BCM BFH barrels the same exact thing as DD CHF barrels? Or do they have their own proprietary mandrels?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
10-10-10, 01:07
Im also a DD fan, but find BCM to be equal to DD in quality. BCM offers quite a bit of options on their site, and makes it easy for beginners to get their dream rifle already assembled. I find their prices to be slightly higher than DD's though.
Is that a verified fact? Are BCM BFH barrels the same exact thing as DD CHF barrels? Or do they have their own proprietary mandrels?
Definitely NOT verified.
Just speculation on the part that only one manufacturer seems to have a HF setup and produces CMV barrels. This is only speculation, and I could be completely wrong/ignorant.
I contacted DD about them and they assured me that the do in fact do the proper testing of barrels and bolts. In addition they also sent me pics of their stations (I was asked not to share the pics due to some of the info contained in them).
I also trust the fact that Larry Vickers put his name behind them. That says alot.
Not to start shit, but I also have not seen any real data from DD or LMT for that matter, on their testing or materials. SMEs (whom I trust) on this site seem to attest to their adherense to TDP and I believe BCM uses DD for their BHF barrels as well.
Do the companies that use DD barrels perform independent testing on them, or do they come tested from DD?
I contacted DD about them and they assured me that the do in fact do the proper testing of barrels and bolts. In addition they also sent me pics of their stations (I was asked not to share the pics due to some of the info contained in them).
I also trust the fact that Larry Vickers put his name behind them. That says alot.
That's what I figured, and you of course are included in the "SMEs (whom I trust)" statement.
Not to set a double standard, but there are some companies who I will take just their word for it at this point. Usually because they never sold rebranded DPMS garbage in their past.
Is that a verified fact? Are BCM BFH barrels the same exact thing as DD CHF barrels? Or do they have their own proprietary mandrels?
Verified fact? No, somebody simply posted speculation on an internet board. Slow down. Having handled and inspected and used both barrels, I highly doubt that's where BCM is getting them. Could be wrong.
Daniel Defense is alright. I think their fixed sights are a not-great design, I don't like their aluminum receiver end plates or the aluminum flush cups for steel QD swivels, and I've had a couple issues with their barrels. I've run into enough issues with DD that I'd prefer something else. Just my own experience and others may differ.
JR TACTICAL
10-10-10, 02:05
Thanks for all the replys and opinions guys I hope I did not start a "my rifle is better than yours" debate over brands I was just wondering if I was missing out on something with BCM. For now I think I'm gonna roll DD but I will seriously concider BCM in the future just to say I did it and compare the differences ( if there even is any)
Btw dunderway, your avatar pic is AWESOME!
Verified fact? No, somebody simply posted speculation on an internet board. Slow down. Having handled and inspected and used both barrels, I highly doubt that's where BCM is getting them. Could be wrong.
Daniel Defense is alright. I think their fixed sights are a not-great design, I don't like their aluminum receiver end plates or the aluminum flush cups for steel QD swivels, and I've had a couple issues with their barrels. I've run into enough issues with DD that I'd prefer something else. Just my own experience and others may differ.
What differences did you note that gives such a high degree of doubt? Proof markings, rifiling/bore quality, accuracy, finish? How many barrels did you compare? Just curious.
Thanks for all the replys and opinions guys I hope I did not start a "my rifle is better than yours" debate over brands I was just wondering if I was missing out on something with BCM. For now I think I'm gonna roll DD but I will seriously concider BCM in the future just to say I did it and compare the differences ( if there even is any)
Btw dunderway, your avatar pic is AWESOME!
If DD offered their full line of carbines two years ago, I may very well have two of them instead of two home-built BCM/LMTs.
Kurt Russell rules, and is a lifetime member of the NRA.
Verified fact? No, somebody simply posted speculation on an internet board. Slow down. Having handled and inspected and used both barrels, I highly doubt that's where BCM is getting them. Could be wrong.
Daniel Defense is alright. I think their fixed sights are a not-great design, I don't like their aluminum receiver end plates or the aluminum flush cups for steel QD swivels, and I've had a couple issues with their barrels. I've run into enough issues with DD that I'd prefer something else. Just my own experience and others may differ.
I've been contemplating getting another upper and am looking hard at the BCM BFH barrels because I want a recon-type configuration, but don't want the stainless barrel. GotM4 has mentioned that his BCM BFH shoots almost as well as his BCM SS barrel at 200 yards and at 300 yards the SS barrel was superior. Also, Surf has mentioned that he gets similar accuracy between his DD CHF and non-CHF barrels (I believe he said around 2 MOA) so I kinda wrote off DD for a more precision, but not high precision gun. That left me with looking at the BCM BFH or Noveske Recce barrels. FWIW, I get 1.5" groups at 100 yards with my DDM4 using quality ammo, and crappy glass.
When Dunderway made his speculation, I wasn't sure if he had some insider info so I got a bit excited as that gave me another option.
Have you compared the accuracy of the DD CHF vs the BCM BFH barrels?
That's interesting. I built my wifes carbine using a 209.00 DD barrel from Bravo Company and it shoots balls on. Have you ever contacted DD and told them of your issues?
They can't fix it if they don't know about it.
Verified fact? No, somebody simply posted speculation on an internet board. Slow down. Having handled and inspected and used both barrels, I highly doubt that's where BCM is getting them. Could be wrong.
Daniel Defense is alright. I think their fixed sights are a not-great design, I don't like their aluminum receiver end plates or the aluminum flush cups for steel QD swivels, and I've had a couple issues with their barrels. I've run into enough issues with DD that I'd prefer something else. Just my own experience and others may differ.
That's interesting. I built my wifes carbine using a 209.00 DD barrel from Bravo Company and it shoots balls on. Have you ever contacted DD and told them of your issues?
They can't fix it if they don't know about it.
I've had two DD 16" carbine barrels (still have one) - one has a .068" gas port (CHF) and the other was .058" (button rifled).
Im also a DD fan, but find BCM to be equal to DD in quality. BCM offers quite a bit of options on their site, and makes it easy for beginners to get their dream rifle already assembled. I find their prices to be slightly higher than DD's though.
Where are people seeing these cheap DD prices? Everywhere I've looked, DD is significantly higher than BCM, esp. on base carbines.
Not to start shit, but I also have not seen any real data from DD or LMT for that matter, on their testing or materials. SMEs (whom I trust) on this site seem to attest to their adherense to TDP and I believe BCM uses DD for their BHF barrels as well.
Do the companies that use DD barrels perform independent testing on them, or do they come tested from DD?
Therein lies my only "complaint", however minor, with BCM: they aren't really an OEM like DD, LMT or LWRC...you are getting a parts gun, no matter how high the quality, how good the parts, they (BCM) won't tell you who their suppliers are...so you end up with an albeit great rifle at a great price (so who really cares) but it'll be made of other manufacturers' parts.
Don't take this the wrong way: I own one complete BCM and another upper and a ton of their parts, but they don't have the same brand name recognition as DD, LMT, etc. espeically outside of the "inner circle".
For those of us who take a lot of pride in what we own it kinda sux to have to say "well, I don't really know who made it, but it was assembled by BCM".
Will_Die_Trying
10-10-10, 06:08
BCM is offering the same if not slightly better quality from my understanding.
Most think its crap but if you check "The Chart":
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
For M4's BCM actually scores one slot above DD.
I would say you hit the nail on the head in that its your lack of experience with the BCM.
That said DD is just a cooler name to some, but BCM is coming onto the market offering the same if not slightly better quality and they are entering the market at about $100-200 less than like models of DD.
If you have to have a "cool" name you pay the extra couple hundred. If names dont mean anything just want quality at a great price, then BCM seems to kick serious but in this area.
Also Options. DD does not offer a rifle length unit. BCm has the A4. Hence DD will not get my 1+ grand. more than likey that money is going to BCM.
Why does everyone cream themselves over bcm rifles???
this is not a shot at them it is simply a question and I am looking to be educated
These two statements are at odds with each other.
justin_247
10-10-10, 09:01
Daniel Defense is alright. I think their fixed sights are a not-great design, I don't like their aluminum receiver end plates or the aluminum flush cups for steel QD swivels, and I've had a couple issues with their barrels. I've run into enough issues with DD that I'd prefer something else. Just my own experience and others may differ.
What kinds of issues? I have a DD and it's fantastic. The only problem I've ever had was because of the software (ie, me), not the hardware.
Robb Jensen
10-10-10, 09:29
Not to start shit, but I also have not seen any real data from DD or LMT for that matter, on their testing or materials. SMEs (whom I trust) on this site seem to attest to their adherense to TDP and I believe BCM uses DD for their BHF barrels as well.
Do the companies that use DD barrels perform independent testing on them, or do they come tested from DD?
This is not the case.
BFH barrels are not DD barrels. BCM barrels are 11595-E same as Colt & FN. BFH barrels are made on a newer hammer forging machine than the one DD uses.
What differences did you note that gives such a high degree of doubt? Proof markings, rifiling/bore quality, accuracy, finish? How many barrels did you compare? Just curious.
Two DD barrels and two BCM barrels. Markings, chamber appearance and chrome appearance, and phosphate finish. Just simple stuff. They appear to be different enough that I'd be surprised if they came from the same place.
What kinds of issues? I have a DD and it's fantastic. The only problem I've ever had was because of the software (ie, me), not the hardware.
Crooked FSB. I know that can happen to any mfg, but when you start having a lot of little things add up that bother you, it can make a difference. I'm sure they do great barrels anyway, I've just had better luck with BCM stuff.
Therein lies my only "complaint", however minor, with BCM: they aren't really an OEM like DD, LMT or LWRC...you are getting a parts gun
Olympic Arms makes almost all of their own components, including forging their own hammers and triggers. I'm not aware of any other company that does that.
Using your logic.....
Both DD and BCM are top notch in my opinion. I have a complete DD carbine while I only have a complete lower from BCM. I trust both completely. The ONLY things (2) that I prefer about DD is 1. that you can call and custom order a carbine made how you want it (barrel, barrel length, rail type, rail length, etc.) 2. Their abundance of CHF barrel choices. BCM to my knowledge does not offer uppers built "your way" and as of late less and less of their uppers have featured CHF barrels.
This is not the case.
BFH barrels are not DD barrels. BCM barrels are 11595-E same as Colt & FN. BFH barrels are made on a newer hammer forging machine than the one DD uses.
Does the age of the machine mean much in this case?
Therein lies my only "complaint", however minor, with BCM: they aren't really an OEM like DD, LMT or LWRC...you are getting a parts gun, no matter how high the quality, how good the parts, they (BCM) won't tell you who their suppliers are...so you end up with an albeit great rifle at a great price (so who really cares) but it'll be made of other manufacturers' parts.
Don't take this the wrong way: I own one complete BCM and another upper and a ton of their parts, but they don't have the same brand name recognition as DD, LMT, etc. espeically outside of the "inner circle".
For those of us who take a lot of pride in what we own it kinda sux to have to say "well, I don't really know who made it, but it was assembled by BCM".
:confused:
What "inner circle"? Parts gun? Most of them are...
Have you ever heard of these companies: (bet you have some of their parts!)
AO Precision Manufacturing LLC http://aopmfg.com/
Microbest http://microbest.com/products
PGM http://www.pgmcorp.com/markets-military.html
.
Maybe the question should be, why don't others make rifles like BCM and DD?
:confused:
What "inner circle"? Parts gun? Most of them are...
Have you ever heard of these companies: (bet you have some of their parts!)
AO Precision Manufacturing LLC http://aopmfg.com/
Microbest http://microbest.com/products
PGM http://www.pgmcorp.com/markets-military.html
.
I agree with AMMOTECH here, a complete in house gun is near mythical. A company may make its major parts, rail, barrel, BCG, upper reciever. but the little parts are usually made by someone else. Heck even some of the major parts will have their names on them but are made by a company you have never herd of. Thats just the way it goes.
RogerinTPA
10-10-10, 16:52
Quality.
Configurations.
Price.
Customer Service.
Most manufacturers have some of those attributes; only a select few have all. BCM and DD are in the "select few" that are synonomous with those terms.
When a company can give the consumer what they want, at a price that is comiserate with the current market, show flexability and a willingness to go the extra mile for the sake of the customer and produce a truly top tier product; that company tends to gain a loyal following.
Agreed...And a Veteran owned company who produces top notch quality firearms parts, well before any other manufacturer out there.
To the OP, No one is creaming over anything, but we respect a manufacturer, to include DD, Noveske, who choose to excel in making their parts up to the TDP, and surpassing it, instead of cutting corners like most of their peers do. Notice how other manufacturers are slowly stepping up their own quality (Spikes). I call it leading by example... trying to remain competitive and viable. It's great to have a vendor(s) who offer lots of quality options, which we all benefit from.
Robb Jensen
10-10-10, 17:11
Does the age of the machine mean much in this case?
No both are excellent.
ewells2420
10-10-10, 17:20
When I first joined I went through the same questions. Of the research I have done I have heard or read a few 'accounts' of the quality of stuff like say Del-Ton being crap and BCM being far superior. I have no first hand expierence outside of my old issued riffle. But better safe than sorry I guess.
And its really not that much expensive.
polymorpheous
10-10-10, 18:24
Filthy 14.
Robb Jensen
10-10-10, 18:50
Filthy 14.
Amen.
If it weren't for that one company in Vero Beach FL, every one of my rifles would have both BCM and DD components on it (all have one or the other now), and virtually all preferences for one or the other seem to be dependent on configuration, so keep that in mind.
Any company can put out a lemon, and anybody can turn out a peach every so often - with the type of thorough testing done by firms like Colt, BCM, and DD you're absolutely maximizing the MRBF when the weapon is operated correctly, and more importantly, the QC for the rare times something is amiss has been great as well.
The real consumer education point that this site provides is that you get a better indication of where the money goes on rifles, and why there are differences between $400 frankenguns and $1000 base rifles. While details like CHF barrels from milspec steel, C158 shot peened HPT/MPI bolts, 5.56 chambers, etc. add to the initial cost of the gun, the market of shooters who actually shoot reasonable volumes of ammunition have resoundingly come back to the same short list of brands with these features as being a better value (and after 10 cases of ammunition, a cheaper weapon system).
D. Christopher
10-10-10, 20:11
If you end up with a DD or a BCM product, the odds of you having a serious problem are pretty slim. If you do have a problem, the odds of them taking care of it in a fast and efficient manner are great. It used to be that the OEM's were the ones making the best components and weapons. That's not necessarily the case anymore. The only person I have to impress with the name on my weapon is me.
Therein lies my only "complaint", however minor, with BCM: they aren't really an OEM like DD, LMT or LWRC...you are getting a parts gun, no matter how high the quality, how good the parts, they (BCM) won't tell you who their suppliers are...so you end up with an albeit great rifle at a great price (so who really cares) but it'll be made of other manufacturers' parts.
Don't take this the wrong way: I own one complete BCM and another upper and a ton of their parts, but they don't have the same brand name recognition as DD, LMT, etc. espeically outside of the "inner circle".
For those of us who take a lot of pride in what we own it kinda sux to have to say "well, I don't really know who made it, but it was assembled by BCM".
Ummm, as a result of this thread, I've started looking more closely at DD complete uppers. And uppers I found, are advertised by DD as having CMT upper receivers, mated to their barrels.
So.... How is DD not a parts assembler, again? Albeit, an apparently very good parts assembler....
polymorpheous
10-10-10, 20:34
Ummm, as a result of this thread, I've started looking more closely at DD complete uppers. And uppers I found, are advertised by DD as having CMT upper receivers, mated to their barrels.
So.... How is DD not a parts assembler, again? Albeit, an apparently very good parts assembler....
Did they happen to be from PK Firearms?
Therein lies my only "complaint", however minor, with BCM: they aren't really an OEM like DD, LMT or LWRC...you are getting a parts gun, no matter how high the quality, how good the parts, they (BCM) won't tell you who their suppliers are...so you end up with an albeit great rifle at a great price (so who really cares) but it'll be made of other manufacturers' parts.
Don't take this the wrong way: I own one complete BCM and another upper and a ton of their parts, but they don't have the same brand name recognition as DD, LMT, etc. espeically outside of the "inner circle".
For those of us who take a lot of pride in what we own it kinda sux to have to say "well, I don't really know who made it, but it was assembled by BCM".
So DD:
- Machines their own bolts and carriers?
- Button rifles the non-CHF barrels?
- Owns a forge to make upper and lower receiver forgings?
- Manufactures buffers that just happen to be amazingly close in appearance to the Spikes ST-T2 buffer, down to a similar name?
- Molds the plastic stock bodies, pistol grips, and handguards?
Now, I don't care who made "it", as long as "it" was made to a certain specification, and someone checked certain things along the way.
There's nothing that "sucks" about saying "Bravo has the connections and knowledge to source the best available components - and the experience to properly assemble and test them - creating one of the highest quality AR-15s on the market."
jklaughrey
10-10-10, 22:16
I would take an outsourced parts gun from BCM/DD versus a complete in house build made by BM/Oly/Del-ton....everytime. You get the point!
Did they happen to be from PK Firearms?
Oooh. Good point. Yes, you are correct.
Is that PK specific?
I have been on M4C for a while now and have read alot and learned alot from alot of very well educated people but I have a question???
Why does everyone cream themselves over bcm rifles??? I am a Daniel Defense guy through and through and have yet to find a rifle (at least in the AR market) that comes close to the quality of DD. I have used and built a number of AR's now from DPMS, Rockriver, Noveske( which was close by the way ) and still have not found a compareable rifle to DD. Now that being said, I have never shot a BCM upper I have used a lower built by them but that is no way to judge quality and I am wondering does it come down to price??? or am I really missing out on something with BCM
Disclamer:
to all the people out there on M4C that love BCM, this is not a shot at them it is simply a question and I am looking to be educated
John... I am grounding you from making posts on M4carbine without calling a friend first. You know people who could have answered this for you.
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