View Full Version : FN 5.7 from pistol
First let me state that I have read the 5.7 info above, and I have read other info that I could find on the performance of the cartridge.
However, I have not found any detailed description of or photos of a 5.7 wound on a human body from either an OIS or civilian shooting. Please do not interpret this question to be an argument in favor of the 5.7. I would just like to get some feel for how it has performed in actual shootings because there are still a lot of guys out there spouting off about the devastating wound that it creates. T
I know the gelatin tests are designed to predict how a round is likely to perform on human targets. But still I would like to ask if anyone knows of actual shootings with the 5.7 with some detail about the wound created. Thanks!
http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/428067.jpg
I know of one SWAT team which ditched their 5.7s after a shooting in which they engaged a target something like 15+ times - and only finished when the perp said "I will surrender if you'll stop shooting me."
Wound channels are like .22lr - long, straight and with minimal tissue damage.
Extremely ineffective round in actual shootings. Bad idea.
Didn't the Ft Hood Major have a 5.7 Pistol :confused:
Didn't the Ft Hood Major have a 5.7 Pistol :confused:
Im pretty sure he had a Beretta 92.
Im pretty sure he had a Beretta 92.
Nope, he had a 5.7 with the 30 round mag extensions.
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2009/11/13/a-closer-look-at-fort-hood-shooter-s-gun.html
BTW, that article is pretty disgusting, but it was one of the first ones on Google that pointed out the gun type.
While I have no wish to glorify what this guy did, it serves to point out that even poor performers like the 5.7mm, a glorified .22 magnum, are still lethal bullets. They don't just bounce off. The statistics I read, though I forget where I read them, is he had something like a 30% fatality rate among the number of people he shot.
I will refuse to draw any conclusions from this due to the nature of the incident and purely because of the infinite number of variables involved in the situation.
However, all practical tests and data I have seen agrees that the round itself is a marginal performer and there are many, many good calibers out there that are cheaper, more readily available, and are far more effective.
I know of one SWAT team which ditched their 5.7s after a shooting in which they engaged a target something like 15+ times - and only finished when the perp said "I will surrender if you'll stop shooting me."
Wound channels are like .22lr - long, straight and with minimal tissue damage.
Extremely ineffective round in actual shootings. Bad idea.
Thanks, that one is interesting.
something like a 30% fatality rate a
That's a piss poor rate on unarmed, unarmored targets in a confined area.
Dave James
11-19-10, 18:52
500 the only one that I am aware of, barring the Army shooting happened just after the round and pistol came out, there was one OIC with it from a SWAT team either in SC or futher south, Officer was shot in the ankle or lower leg, by another Officer.
They may have the info over at the FN forum
Try looking up the following:
Shooting incidents involving the Secret Service. They issue some FN P-90's
Shooting incidents involving Federal Police (same thing)
Cullman County, AL Swat's shooting incidents. They use a mix of weapons that includes the FN- P 90
Birmingham, AL's Drug Task Force used to issue FN- P 90 for
high risk entries, but I am not sure if they still do
Peru's Swat used a mixed of weapons including the FN P- 90 when
rescuing Fijumora in Peru
Thanks very much.
I received info that the Secret Service, except for the uniformed division, gave their P90s back to FN due to breakage issues. Not sure if it is accurate info or not.
kaltesherz
11-20-10, 13:32
The fact that many of the Ft Hood victims were shot multiple times (4 or 5) with the 5.7 and didn't even know they had been shot till much later speaks volumes. He may have killed a lot of people but they were at close range, unarmed, and he shot them all multiple times. The 5.7 round seems to be all hype...
BLACK LION
12-06-10, 15:57
One cant really compare the performance out of the 5/7 with the p90 since the barrel length on the p90/fs2000 is much longer.
I know those little bb's still push about 2000 fps out of the pistol.
I contemplated getting one of these for the longest time and the thought still tickles me. I thought it may even suit the wife but when reality sets in I find myself once again focuse on either the 9mm or the 45.
One cant really compare the performance out of the 5/7 with the p90 since the barrel length on the p90/fs2000 is much longer.
I know those little bb's still push about 2000 fps out of the pistol.
I contemplated getting one of these for the longest time and the thought still tickles me. I thought it may even suit the wife but when reality sets in I find myself once again focuse on either the 9mm or the 45.
Yes, but one can look at the fact that the 5.7mm round is marginal out of the P90, and as such, when we start discussing the performance out of the pistol, it can only be worse.
As has been shown through an actual incident where this round was involved, it is not a good performer by any means.
If you'll just look at DocGKR's post on the 5.7 in his Terminal Ballistics info above I think it will answer the question. What is stated there can be taken to the bank.
BLACK LION
12-07-10, 17:31
Yes, but one can look at the fact that the 5.7mm round is marginal out of the P90, and as such, when we start discussing the performance out of the pistol, it can only be worse.
As has been shown through an actual incident where this round was involved, it is not a good performer by any means.
Good point.
I am glad I have remained a window licker when it came to the 5.7
Ill stick with the "proven" options currently on TAP.
The P90 was never intended to be a super-monster-death-ray gun. In fact, I really see no reason for it to have a semi-auto selector on it to begin with. The problem arises when people think it's a super-monster-death-ray gun. Now, you take 50 of those little buggers and put them into a target in less than 4 seconds... it's gonna cause someone a really bad day, regardless of caliber. It can be done, I've seen me do it. (paper targets, of course). Renting a full auto one will put a smile on your face.
That being said, I have an SBR'd PS90 simply because I wanted one. Sure as hell didn't need one, but that wasn't the point. If I need something to fight with, it won't be the PS90, nor would it be the 5.7 pistol. I bought them both back when I had more money than sense. Come to think of it, I really didn't have all that much money... so what does that say about my sense at the time? I've learned a lot since and unless there was a considerable need to conceal something with a high round count (approaching fantasy land)... I'll stick with the AR.
Thanks very much.
I received info that the Secret Service, except for the uniformed division, gave their P90s back to FN due to breakage issues. Not sure if it is accurate info or not.
A bit of a late response but I have a friend whose brother is a Secret Service agent and firearms trainer. Aparently the P90 had a problem of ejecting the mags when bumped.
I "believe" the Georgia State Patrol were issued them. According to at least one reputable poster on another forum, after shooting the BG multiple times, the BG shouted at the officers to "Stop shooting me with that fucking gun!!!"
BG was treated for multiple GSW, but survived the shooting.
At least that's the way I heard it.
One thing to remember about the 5.7 x 28, reloading the cartridge is a touchy thing, as the gun will Kb with certain powder/bullet combos. There is some data available online that validates this but am too tired/lazy to search for it myself.
TXLowflyer
12-15-10, 15:50
I think he is retired now and I don't know if HPD SWAT is still using the 5.7.
I did allot of training with Sandy Wall and TTPOA back in the day,Good Stuff but I don't know about the 5.7
I would avoid it myself. Stick with something proven.
By Sandy Wall
The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. We received five P90s into our inventory in 1999 along with several thousand 5.7mm rounds of ammunition. After a short period of in-house testing and training, the P90s became operational within our entry team elements. The P90 has been utilized primarily at the point man positions where its CQB features are best utilized. The first time I saw a P90, I couldn�t help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven. We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds. Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date.
I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it�s a great weapon. Its CQB features are many, so I will just touch on the high points. The weapon system, including both the P90 submachine gun and the FiveseveN pistol, is built around the SS190 5.7x28mm cartridge. One of the unique features about this system is that the cartridge can be fired from an assault rifle or a handgun. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The bullet contains no lead for environments that prohibit toxins. The round is not cheap but as the weapon becomes more popular here in the United States, the cost should come down. Winchester will soon assemble the 5.7mm round from imported FN components and also plans to make a hollowpoint round.
The 5.7mm round has 379 ft-lbs of energy, compared to 1300 ft-lbs for the 5.56mm NATO. The recoil from the 5.7mm round is much less than even the 9mm. The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds. The P90 works from a simple blow-back bolt in a bullpup design. It is as easy to break down and clean as any gun you will ever shoot. I have been amazed at how little residue I find even after hundreds of rounds. I find less residue than in most weapons fired only 50 rounds. The simplicity of the action provides almost no chance of malfunctions. We literally tried to make one of ours malfunction by refusing to clean it. After several thousand rounds we couldn�t stand it anymore, broke down and cleaned it anyway. To this day, after thousands of rounds down range, I have yet to experience a malfunction with my P90. The ergonomic design provides comfort and speed on target but does not compromise accuracy. It can hold a respectable group at 100 yards and the recoil is about one third of an M4, and even less than a 9mm MP5. Recoil management and time back on target is easy. It has a two-stage trigger in full-auto mode that allows the shooter to fire single or full-auto fire with just trigger manipulation� no more accidentally going full-auto because you did not realize where your selector was positioned. With the P90 the shooter has to commit a conscious effort to pull through the semi-auto stage to the full auto mode.
Every feature of the weapon can be operated equally from the right or left hand position. Spent casings eject straight down, which makes my partners on the firing line happy. No more doing the hot-brass-down-my-shirt dance. FN even has a slick little pouch that neatly attaches to the eject port. It will catch about a hundred casings before you have to dump it. The 50 round magazine almost eliminates the need to carry extra ammo. The magazine is translucent, which allows the shooter to know how many rounds remain with just a glance, even while you operate the weapon because the magazine sits right on top of the weapon just below the shooter�s cheek well. The P90 comes with a two or three rail option for after market accessories and an optional built in laser. One of the drawbacks of the weapon is poor iron sights and I don�t really care for the optional factory optics. We popped them off and went with EOTech Holo sights. Normally, I�m not big on lasers, but in this case I use my built-in laser as a good back up to my holo sights should it malfunction.
When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I�m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can�t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.
One interesting thing I note from that post is that it discusses the P90 itself. When the 5.7mm is utilized from a rifle, it can perform adequately, depending, as the round reaches a decent velocity from that platform, and within CQB ranges, it can be effective.
When you reduce barrel length to a pistol's length of 4" or so, you are going to greatly reduce the effective velocity of the bullet. What was a marginal performer out of a rifle now becomes a poor performer out of a pistol.
Given what we've seen of the 5.7mm pistol capabilities and its low effectiveness, I would say that it's not a pistol i would begin to bet my life on. I'd give up my .45 for a 9mm before I went to a 5.7mm.
As a side note, I trust everything DocGKR's written in his stickies. There are none better out there.
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