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User Name
08-07-07, 17:17
Do I need to separate my .223 brass from 5.56mm? I plan on replicating the LEO TAP 75 grain 80265 ballistically using a chrono and with help of someone who knows something about reloading. Of course for training purposes. Thanks gents for your unwavering support of my newbie Q's!:)

AR15barrels
08-07-07, 17:39
Do I need to separate my .223 brass from 5.56mm? I plan on replicating the LEO TAP 75 grain 80265 ballistically using a chrono and with help of someone who knows something about reloading. Of course for training purposes. Thanks gents for your unwavering support of my newbie Q's!:)

In my opinion, it's not necessary to segregate different headstamps of 223 and 5.56 unless you are going for ultimate accuracy.

Un-informed people will tell you that military brass is thicker than commercial brass.

This may be true of other cartridges, but I don't believe it to be true of 223 and 5.56.

I weighed a bunch of cartridge cases to figure this out...

223 vs. 5.56 case weights (http://ar15barrels.com/data/223weights.xls) (link requires MS Excel)

Differences in alloy COULD account for some of the differences, but certainly not all of it.

PALADIN-hgwt
08-07-07, 21:24
xxxxx

Submariner
08-07-07, 21:50
IIRC, Molon posted this on TOS:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/5.56mmWebThickness.jpg

jmart
08-07-07, 22:09
If just for training I would load IAW published reloading data which is going to be based on .223 pressure levels developed in .223 SAAMI chambers. When you fire these in your NATO chamber you'll probably come up short of TAP LEO velocity by 100 fps or so, but I wouldn't sweat it. Your primer pockets will thank you, they don't like a steady diet of max loads.

If you must insist on loading to max velocity, pick a "slowish" powder for .223. Varget (meters so-so, can bridge in your powder measure and just causes a freakin' mess), TAC (meters great), H4895 (same as Varget), RL-15 ( atad better than Varget). These are standards in HP land, but they are shooting rifle length barrels/gas systems. I'm assuming they'll work OK in carbines, maybe others can chime in that have first hand experience. But these are the powders that are used on the 600 yard line where you are trying to get max velocity.

Low Drag
08-07-07, 23:34
If just for training I would load IAW published reloading data which is going to be based on .223 pressure levels developed in .223 SAAMI chambers. When you fire these in your NATO chamber you'll probably come up short of TAP LEO velocity by 100 fps or so, but I wouldn't sweat it. Your primer pockets will thank you, they don't like a steady diet of max loads.

If you must insist on loading to max velocity, pick a "slowish" powder for .223. Varget (meters so-so, can bridge in your powder measure and just causes a freakin' mess), TAC (meters great), H4895 (same as Varget), RL-15 ( atad better than Varget). These are standards in HP land, but they are shooting rifle length barrels/gas systems. I'm assuming they'll work OK in carbines, maybe others can chime in that have first hand experience. But these are the powders that are used on the 600 yard line where you are trying to get max velocity.

I always try to stay away from max charge too. About 10% below max is where I seem to have good luck. I've reloaded handgun for many years but am new to rifle rounds and have had success with my AR loads thus far.

M4 Colt
08-08-07, 09:23
excuse me for interupting here guys, but don't the dies play a very big role in the reloading process ?? if you have .223 Rem. dies you are making .223 Rem. ammo and on the other hand if you are using 5.56mm dies you are making 5.56mm ammo.

this is one of the reasons so many people get confused about calibers, most/many AR-15 type rifles have stamped on the receiver ".223Rem." , yet on the barrel you will see 5.56mm NATO, and that is why i use 5.56mm NATO dies.

Kurt Reifert
08-08-07, 09:37
Ramshot TAC or Hodgdon B-LC2 will meter the best and give excellent results.
People say that Blackhills .223/5.56 is loaded using TAC. Not sure if that's true.
It's my powder of choice for .223.

jmart
08-08-07, 10:41
excuse me for interupting here guys, but don't the dies play a very big role in the reloading process ?? if you have .223 Rem. dies you are making .223 Rem. ammo and on the other hand if you are using 5.56mm dies you are making 5.56mm ammo.

this is one of the reasons so many people get confused about calibers, most/many AR-15 type rifles have stamped on the receiver ".223Rem." , yet on the barrel you will see 5.56mm NATO, and that is why i use 5.56mm NATO dies.


Where does one purchase 5.56 NATO dies? Care to post the dimensional differences between the two?

Some of the key differences which affect resultant pressures are in neck/leade/throat dimension and dies don't have any impact on these. The main differences in NATO data (which I've never seen published) vs .223 SAAMI data is that SAAMI data is baselined against a chamber dimension that has a shorter freebore, a smaller diameter freebore and a steeper leade. Consequently, SAAMI-tailored data will hit the MAP psi level quicker (less powder) than will loads developed for a NATO chamber. For example, a load which develops 52K psi in a SAAMI chamber will develop less pressure in a NATO chamber, and conversely, a load which develops 52K psi in a NATO chamber will develop more pressure when fired in a SAAMI chamber.

User Name
08-08-07, 10:54
Thank you guys allot for the info. It definately cleared the issue up for me. Now about that Dillon 650 progressive reloader and sneaking it past my wife to the basement (my room) we will see.:rolleyes:

AR15barrels
08-08-07, 14:16
excuse me for interupting here guys, but don't the dies play a very big role in the reloading process ?? if you have .223 Rem. dies you are making .223 Rem. ammo and on the other hand if you are using 5.56mm dies you are making 5.56mm ammo.

this is one of the reasons so many people get confused about calibers, most/many AR-15 type rifles have stamped on the receiver ".223Rem." , yet on the barrel you will see 5.56mm NATO, and that is why i use 5.56mm NATO dies.

Are you aware that the loaded cartridge dimensions are all but identical between 223 and 5.56?

The difference between 223 and 5.56 is mostly in the MAXIMUM chamber lengths and the throat diameters.
The minimum lengths are basically identical.

ALL ammo loaded to meet 5.56 specs would easily FIT in 223 chambers.

M4 Colt
08-10-07, 08:11
Thank you guys allot for the info. It definately cleared the issue up for me. Now about that Dillon 650 progressive reloader and sneaking it past my wife to the basement (my room) we will see.:rolleyes:

good luck in "sneaking" :D a 650 box past your wife, :D the box mine came in was abt. 30" long & 18" square, then the case feeder box is abt. half that size

M4 Colt
08-10-07, 08:27
sorry guys about the 5.56mm dies, but i have had this one set of dies for over 30 years and the sizing die is marked "5.56 NATO", i am not sure who made it, because when i got my Dillon 650 several years ago i got a new set of dies plus the Lee crimper, a lot of my older stuff is boxed and stored away somewhere on the ranch in one of the 5 buildings on site.

User Name
08-10-07, 09:09
good luck in "sneaking" :D a 650 box past your wife, :D the box mine came in was abt. 30" long & 18" square, then the case feeder box is abt. half that size

Oh great fat chance. Oh well.:( But I just bought her a new car. Actually I'm sneaky. I ship stuff like that to my buddy's house and sneak it in when she's at work. Best thing is she cannot tell one AR from the next and she does not have the combo to my safe!:)

paulosantos
08-10-07, 09:27
You are not going to safely duplicate the Hornady 556 75 Gr. TAP. Hornady uses special powders that they get and it beats up the brass when you shoot it. Your best bet is to get some Varget, H4895, RL-15, TAC, and BL-C2, and test each one and see which one provides the best blend of speed and accuracy and stick with it. If you go over the max recommended load, you will beat the crap out of your brass and be lucky to get 3 or 4 reloads. Remember if you are reloading the Hornady 556 TAP, it already gets beat up from the first time you fire it so if you continue to load it hot, your brass will not last and that is not the purpose of reloading.

I also recommend getting a Corbin HCT-1 cannelure tool to roll your own cannelures, which is easy as hell and pretty fast.

http://www.bulletswage.com/hct-1.htm

User Name
08-10-07, 12:33
Remember if you are reloading the Hornady 556 TAP, it already gets beat up from the first time you fire it so if you continue to load it hot, your brass will not last and that is not the purpose of reloading.

Good point. I plan to load it down per say 200 fps.

paulosantos
08-10-07, 13:45
Remember if you are reloading the Hornady 556 TAP, it already gets beat up from the first time you fire it so if you continue to load it hot, your brass will not last and that is not the purpose of reloading.

Good point. I plan to load it down per say 200 fps.

I have Hornady's Reloading Manual and this is what they have:

1. H4895: Start at 19.3Gr. and Max is 23.3 Gr.
2. RL-15: Start at 20Gr. and Max is 24.1Gr.
3. Varget: Start at 19.4 Gr. and Max is 23.5Gr.
4. BL-C2: Start at 21.2Gr. and Max is 25.2Gr.

5. TAC: Start at 21.2Gr. and Max is 23.6Gr.

With a 16" barrel you should be in the 2500fps with the max load.

User Name
08-11-07, 09:21
I have Hornady's Reloading Manual and this is what they have:

1. H4895: Start at 19.3Gr. and Max is 23.3 Gr.
2. RL-15: Start at 20Gr. and Max is 24.1Gr.
3. Varget: Start at 19.4 Gr. and Max is 23.5Gr.
4. BL-C2: Start at 21.2Gr. and Max is 25.2Gr.

5. TAC: Start at 21.2Gr. and Max is 23.6Gr.

With a 16" barrel you should be in the 2500fps with the max load.

Thank you. Good stuff.