View Full Version : LWRC Pros and Cons....
Black Jack
12-29-10, 12:19
LWRC Pros and Cons....
I am thinking about LWRC, both the M6 (either the A2 or the A3)and the REPR and am looking for input from those who have experience with them.
What did you like about them?
What did you NOT like about them?
How reliable are they?
How durable are they?
How accurate are they?
How about the company itself?
Any input you may have regarding your experience would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
I have an 16" A2. I really like the rifle I've never had a problem with it. Having said that it is my backup rifle. The reason it is my back up is that I like to run my AR's as light as possible and prefer a LW barrel, MOE handguards and a microAimpoint.
Pros:
Accuracy- I get sub MOA groups at 100 yrds with Hrndy 55 V-Max.
I like the long continuous flat top rail.
Very sold- no rattle.
Reliable- never malfunctioned
Cons:
Trigger- I had to change out the trigger I prefer a much lighter trigger.
Weight- It's not a heavy rifle, but with the long rail it's not light either.
I've had this rifle a few years and I'm still torn on it. Like I mentioned it's never malfunctioned but I have less than 1k rounds through it. Would I buy it again? Probably not. At this point I feel that the gas piston stuff is overrated and overpriced.
I know this comes across as somewhat negative, and that's not fair for LWRC or the rifle as it has never let me down. It's just not the right setup for me as my primary.
I have two M6A3s and have paid close attention to the company since 2008.
Here's what I like:
-Very reliable.
-Good furniture (I squirrel away a bunch of spare parts in the MIAD/VLTOR stock).
-Really like the Nitrocarb'd barrels.
-Good accuracy. You'll usually get 1.5 MOA.
-Really like the fail-zero coatings they use.
-No need to constantly lube the BCG--BCG stays slick even after a thousand rounds.
-Company itself is smaller and hence more agile, their head honchos post frequently on their forums, so they're also very accessible.
-Company frequently innovates and constantly develops their weapons.
-Company pays attention to detail--M4 feed ramps, good fit/finish between lowers and uppers, H2 buffers, teflon coated buffer tubes, etc.
Here's what I don't like:
-Weapon is heavier. Rail, VLTOR stock, and extra piston parts adds about a pound over your standard M4/RAS carbine. However, my M6A3 was noticeably lighter than my DI RRA/HBAR/RAS (probably due to the HBAR).
- Spits carbon all over the gas block. A real pain in the butt to scrub up. Instead of bolt-tail carbon, you get carbon on the rail.
-Very expensive.
-Noticeably harsher recoil compared to a DI.
=====================
Bottom line, I'm happy with my LWRCs. They're reliable, and I know I can abuse them and they'll running.
However, they are also tremendously expensive. If this will be your first AR, I heartily recommend a DI AR from top tier manufacturer.
variablebinary
12-29-10, 12:53
Had an M6A1 upper.
There were no major cons. It was a little heavier, but it ran great. I have no major complaints about LWRC other than the price which I think is high enough to invalidate any value above a standard DI AR15.
CarlosDJackal
12-29-10, 12:53
I own two LWRC uppers that I have mated to my SBRs. One is an 10.5" M6A1 with more than 14,000-rounds through it and the other is a 12.7" M6A3 with more than 5,000-rounds.
The Pros:
- Minimal maintenance required (the last time I cleaned my 10.5" M6A1 was June of 2009).
- Very reliable (I shoot a lot of Wolf ammo). I've even had a blown primer make its way into my bolt. I didn't even know it until I took the BCG apart to replace it with a 1-piece BCG. I found the remainder of the primer in the firing pin channel. I suspect that this is probably a contributing factor to that firing pin breaking a few thousand rounds later.
- Darn accurate (my 12.7" M6A3 is a tack driver if I do my part and use good ammo).
- Controllable - The recoil impulse/felt recoil is much sharper than a DI AR but it is straight back and seems help keep the muzzle rise to a minimum. I have a video where I shot 50-rounds (2 mags) through my 10.5" M6A1 on full auto. The gun moves back but there is no visible muzzle climb. I put the first 30-rounds in the chest and the second 20-rounds in the head of a humanoid target (at about 7-yards).
- LWRCI's Customer Service is excellent (as far as my dealings with them, anyway).
The Cons:
- They are generally heavier than a DI gun.
- They cost more than a DI gun.
- They have parts that are not common with DI ARs.
- They are not for everyone. It is up to you to determine if they are worth the cost based on your use and wants. I personally trust my LWRCs and may but a non-SBR one for use as my permanent trunk rifle.
YMMV.
I basically share the same sentiment as the others that have posted. I own a 10.5" M6A2 and it was my first piston AR. The reason I bought it was to see for myself what all the hype was about a few years ago. Mine still has the older BCG without the intergrated key and compared to all my other SBR's, it's by far the heaviest of them all. I bought mine with the intentions of running it suppressed exclusively and after 4K+ rounds doing so, I still have yet to experience a malfunction.
Failure2Stop
12-29-10, 14:34
I have yet to comprehend their cost.
Their cost to benefit ratio is high and they have noticably sharp recoil.
Some people really like the piston thing though . . .
The repr imo is a piece of art. I have seen a few in person ans their fit and finish was flawless. I really like the side charging handle as well. It is also a piston set-up, so if you are planning to run a suppressor right away you already are set-up a little better for it out of the box imo. The only thing I would look into is if they fixed the mag issue. Supposedly they were having issues with pmags? Forget the details, but I heard the new reprs no longer have the problem.
Is their midlength system any softer shooting than their regular length system? How much harsher are we talking over a carbine or midlength DI set-up?
dwhitehorne
12-29-10, 18:14
I've got a M6A1S. It came from LWRC with a H2 buffer. I'd say the recoil is definately more than a DI gun. The piston is nice if your are a lazy cleaner like me. I think mine is front heavy with the longer rail and flashlight on the end. Barrel is heavier than gov profile also. My LWRC almost balances like my Sig556. David
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW.
They still astro turf the gun forums. I see their standard script by low count members... "great value, customer service, blah blah...." It's easy to spot those peckerheads after you've seen their script so many times.
LWRC is the Bernie Madolf of the AR realm.
Personally I love lwrc. I used to own an M6A3 and in the process of trying to get the REPR. They make a good product and will take care of you on their dime if something was to happen. I know they had issues in the past, but the people who own the company and run it are 1st rate people. I would trust my life with my old LWRC. I fed it everything from wolf all the way to hornady and never a hiccup. The only problem that occured was due to my stupidity, but besides that it ran and wouldn't die.
DocHolliday01
12-29-10, 21:15
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW.
They still astro turf the gun forums. I see their standard script by low count members... "great value, customer service, blah blah...." It's easy to spot those peckerheads after you've seen their script so many times.
LWRC is the Bernie Madolf of the AR realm.
Yet another quality post from you in an LWRC thread. Why do you just give up and stay the fuck out of these threads if you hate them so much?
ETA To answer the OP's questions.
10.5in M6A2 upper with 1 piece carrier on a Sabre Lower
Gun has been very reliable in around 1500rds. It is a blast to shoot, and to me recoil impulse is no more harsh than a DI gun. Probably my biggest complaint related to the gun is the weight. Im in the process of coming up with a different solution for a muzzle device, the PWS Brake is just too loud.
Don Robison
12-29-10, 21:30
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW.
They still astro turf the gun forums. I see their standard script by low count members... "great value, customer service, blah blah...." It's easy to spot those peckerheads after you've seen their script so many times.
LWRC is the Bernie Madolf of the AR realm.
I've never used one because I'm not a piston kind of guy.
What makes them junk?
I've seen and worked on enough low end ARs to know what makes them junk, but never had my hands on an LWRC.
DocHolliday01
12-29-10, 21:32
I've never used one because I'm not a piston kind of guy.
What makes them junk?
I've seen and worked on enough low end ARs to know what makes them junk, but never had my hands on an LWRC.
His hatred and personal bias towards the OLD Leitner Wise is what makes them junk to him.
ChicagoTex
12-29-10, 21:55
Cons?
-Much more expensive
-More weight
-More recoil
-Carrier tilt might be an issue
-Individual proprietary parts for BCG, Barrels, and Gas Blocks.
Pros?
Can't think of one.
Applies to every piston AR. :angry:
DocHolliday01
12-29-10, 22:20
Cons?
-Much more expensive
-More weight
-More recoil
-Carrier tilt might be an issue
-Individual proprietary parts for BCG, Barrels, and Gas Blocks.
Pros?
Can't think of one.
Applies to every piston AR. :angry:
I've not seen an LWRC gun yet that had carrier tilt. And I wouldn't say the are "much more expensive" as higher end AR's like Knights and Noveske are within a couple hundred bucks of LWRC.
The single most major negative of piston operated AR's in my opinion is that there is no standardized piston operating system and there likely never will be. Even the most successful and readily available piston AR companies have made numerous revisions to their designs over the past few years.
All this simply translates to is that spare/replacement parts may or may not be available for your newly purchased, over-priced piston AR in the near future.
ChicagoTex
12-29-10, 22:43
I've not seen an LWRC gun yet that had carrier tilt.
As I was generating a list that would apply to all piston ARs, I inserted the caveat word "may" regarding carrier tilt. I, too, haven't seen it on LWRCs.
And I wouldn't say the are "much more expensive" as higher end AR's like Knights and Noveske are within a couple hundred bucks of LWRC.
And BCMs and LMTs are within $400-$500 of LWRC. Even at "only" $200, it's still an utterly unjustifiable price premium, especially compared to all the exclusive enhancements you get with a KAC SR-15. If it makes you happy, though, I'll grant Noveske is generally overpriced aswell.
As I was generating a list that would apply to all piston ARs, I inserted the caveat word "may" regarding carrier tilt. I, too, haven't seen it on LWRCs.
And BCMs and LMTs are within $400-$500 of LWRC. Even at "only" $200, it's still an utterly unjustifiable price premium, especially compared to all the exclusive enhancements you get with a KAC SR-15. If it makes you happy, though, I'll grant Noveske is generally overpriced aswell.
This was a thread about LWRCs, not pistons vs. DIs, which I know people want to opine about.
Also, MarkM has a track record of hating on LWRCs, so I would take what he says about them with a grain of salt.
PatrolRifleGroup
12-29-10, 22:58
I currently own an 10.5" M6A2 and a 14.7" PA M6A2-Stretch. My 10.5 is approaching 6K rounds, and is my current duty rifle. I primarily run wolf for training ammo, and it's nothing to go a 4-day 1000 round course, with nothing but the minimal lube I started with. I've only had one malfunction that I can recall, which was a double feed from a severly deformed round. Overall, I have had great success with both the rifle and the company's customer service.
My M6A2-Stretch is a mid-length piston setup. It does shoot softer than the carbione length system, but then again, the carbine never shot that harsh to me. I guess if you are sensitive to recoil, then you'll be able to tell a greater difference. I have not put that many rounds through this upper to date, because I usually end up defaulting to my SBR. What rounds I have fired have been suppressed, and the accuracy has been superb. I'm actually in the process of setting it up for more of a distance role in the future.
My biggest complaint about the LWRC's are the weight. The combination of the heavy barrel, piston system, and quad rail makes for a heavy front end. This is compounded as the barrel length increases, and as lights and accessories are added. I run a pretty stripped down rifle as it is, T-1 and a TLR-1 is about it, and I notice the weight after a while.
For comparison, I recently built a BCM CHF 11.5" upper, with a Troy TRX extreme rail, that is set up identical to my duty weapon. Without actually weighing them, I'd say there is at least a pound difference between the two. The difference in handling between the two is night and day.
The only light at the end of the tunnel,in terms of weight, is that LWRC is beginning to spiral flute their barrels, and will be releasing lighter rail soon. The rail is similar to the Troy, with movable/removable pic rails. I think that the combo of the two should put the LWRC's more in line with a med weight barrel DI gun.
Would I buy LWRC again, yes. Have I gone entirely to piston, no. On top of the BCM I just built, I am currently looking to add a Noveske Afghan in the next few weeks. I know how to properly maintain and run a rifle, and would have no problem running my BCM or any DI as my primary.
Back in the AWB days, the only rifle I could get my hands on for patrol work was a Bushmaster Patrolman. I ran that gun as hard as my LWRC's, including shooting a ton of wolf. On more than one occasion, I would go through an entire 1K round course with zero malfunctions and minimal maintenance.
If you can afford an LWRC, I'd say get one and go. If money is an issue, build a nice BCM. BTW, my 10.5" shows no signs of carrier tilt.
DocHolliday01
12-29-10, 23:29
As I was generating a list that would apply to all piston ARs, I inserted the caveat word "may" regarding carrier tilt. I, too, haven't seen it on LWRCs.
And BCMs and LMTs are within $400-$500 of LWRC. Even at "only" $200, it's still an utterly unjustifiable price premium, especially compared to all the exclusive enhancements you get with a KAC SR-15. If it makes you happy, though, I'll grant Noveske is generally overpriced aswell.
That my be true but the OP was asking about LWRC guns only, not all piston AR's.
Just a comment on my LWRC M6A1. I traded it for a dirt bike so I only have about $1000 into it as a back up AR. The more I use it the more I pull it out first at the range. It's a 14.7" and has an H2 with trigger work I did on an Armalite TCG. Very happy so far and I will be using it as soon as the weather and classes start cooperating this spring. Didn't notice the AR was any heavier than my 16" or recoiled harder. The casings do land at 1-2 o'clock so I might try the H3 buffer in the near future. Cleaning is on the same schedule as my other AR's and not much to do on the LWRC since they do not build up much, if any, carbon in the BCG and upper chamber. Wipe down and GTG is all it takes. Never intended to purchase a piston AR but the opportunity couldn't be passed up and I'm glad I own one now.
ChicagoTex
12-29-10, 23:38
That my be true but the OP was asking about LWRC guns only, not all piston AR's.
So remove the carrier tilt point and move on.
There are still plenty of cons standing.
RogerinTPA
12-29-10, 23:40
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW.
They still astro turf the gun forums. I see their standard script by low count members... "great value, customer service, blah blah...." It's easy to spot those peckerheads after you've seen their script so many times.
LWRC is the Bernie Madolf of the AR realm.
I don't care what they say, I always enjoy your unbiased opinion on this subject, every time it rears it's head.:p
ChicagoTex
12-29-10, 23:43
This was a thread about LWRCs, not pistons vs. DIs, which I know people want to opine about.
Almost missed your comment. The fact of the matter is unless the OP clearly states he's only comparing pistons to other pistons, a piston gun is absolutely going to be compared to it's DI rivals based on the inherent disadvantages of a piston configuration (generally weight, cost, recoil, and proprietary parts).
These points are absolutely cogent when discussing LWRCs.
CarlosDJackal
12-30-10, 11:11
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW...
I was wondering how long it would take for you to post your venom.
FWIW, the segment he is talking about was one where they showed a suppressed REPR (it was called something else back then) in which the shooter had to hand-cycle the action with each shot. As it turns out they deliberately turned off the gas system in order to reduce the sound signature.
I've done the same on my M6A3 and yes, you do have to hand-cycle the action because the gas system is turned off (DUH!!). It does work in reducing the overall noise level.
Take markm's opinion about LWRC and its products with more than a pound of salt. I don't even know if he's ever owned or shot one of their products. He feels as strongly against LWRC as I do against H&K (I'm a former owner of an H&K product).
Bottom line is if you can swing the cost, they are worth it. IMHO, they are the Glocks of the AR world because you don't have to spend as much time maintaining them (I can't recall whent he last time I cleaned any of my Glocks either). If you don't think the price of admission is worth it, a DI from a decent maker (IE: BCM) will do just as well. YMMV.
For those that claim LWRC to be overpriced (junk) I offer the fact that they come standard with many features which a) you are going to add anyway or b) or better than those found on standard/mil-spec rifles.
Among them:
1. Magpul MIAD.
2. Ni-Corr surface treatment; better wear than chrome lined and it's applied internally and externally.
3. CFH barrels.
4. FailZero coatings.
5. Advanced combat bolt.
6. FF rail with covers.
7. NiB coated FCG and Gdisseles in some cases.
I can't think of any more off the top of my head, but here's another big one:
It's one of the few rifles to actually SEE RECENT COMBAT in any numbers.
Colt, FN.......and LWRC.
If you don't own one, don't comment. If you don't think you want/need any/all of the features above, don't buy one.
[M6A2-S+M6AK]
Littlelebowski
12-30-10, 13:13
Just because a rifle has supposedly seen combat (got any meaningful AARs, please share them!) does not mean it's all that.
Failure2Stop
12-30-10, 13:43
If you don't own one, don't comment. If you don't think you want/need any/all of the features above, don't buy one.
What?
I don't own one because after putting a significant number of rounds I found that recoil was much sharper, it was heavy, and it is still an AR with a piston system shoved into it and lacked many of the advantages other piston systems take advantage of.
I don't have to make a bad purchase to have valid input.
Littlelebowski
12-30-10, 13:47
All of that doesn't make up for one class a savvy shooter can buy with the money he saved going with a DI gun.
For those that claim LWRC to be overpriced (junk) I offer the fact that they come standard with many features which a) you are going to add anyway or b) or better than those found on standard/mil-spec rifles.
Among them:
1. Magpul MIAD.
2. Ni-Corr surface treatment; better wear than chrome lined and it's applied internally and externally.
3. CFH barrels.
4. FailZero coatings.
5. Advanced combat bolt.
6. FF rail with covers.
7. NiB coated FCG and Gdisseles in some cases.
I can't think of any more off the top of my head, but here's another big one:
It's one of the few rifles to actually SEE RECENT COMBAT in any numbers.
Colt, FN.......and LWRC.
If you don't own one, don't comment. If you don't think you want/need any/all of the features above, don't buy one.
[M6A2-S+M6AK]
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW.
They still astro turf the gun forums. I see their standard script by low count members... "great value, customer service, blah blah...." It's easy to spot those peckerheads after you've seen their script so many times.
LWRC is the Bernie Madolf of the AR realm.
hahhahahaa... GIT SOME!
Littlelebowski
12-30-10, 15:08
I think that their barrel treatments may be the way of the future. FailZero has the bolt thing covered for DI guns too.
However, I don't see the point otherwise. What do you tell an owner of a good DI gun that doesn't care about how clean his weapon is so long as it runs?
Con: Ni-Corr is a bunch of hoodo-voodo. FNC has been around for a long time. It is much cheaper to apply than hard chrome and it has to be applied to the entire barrel because there is no method for targeted application. LWRC is just full of themselves. Their TECHNOLOGY (http://www.lwrci.com/t-technology.aspx) page is filled with lies so big you don't know which one to go after first. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit...
LWRC is overpriced junk. They spam the military channel shows with their stupid guns that don't even work ON THE SHOW.
They still astro turf the gun forums. I see their standard script by low count members... "great value, customer service, blah blah...." It's easy to spot those peckerheads after you've seen their script so many times.
LWRC is the Bernie Madolf of the AR realm.
No LWRC thread is complete without a comment from Markm.
But seriously, I remember a year or two ago when we had quite a few threads here about people who bought LWRCs and had problems with them.
Of course this doesn't represent every LWRC owner. But you have to think when is the last time you saw a post from someone whose Colt 6920 didn't work? Keep in mind there are a lot more 6920s sold than LWRCs.
It seems now we hear Much less about LWRC problems, and it looks like the company has its act more squarely in place as far as producing guns that run from the factory.
When we hear all these people talking about great customer service, I have to wonder how many people have had to send one back.
Con: Ni-Corr is a bunch of hoodo-voodo. FNC has been around for a long time. It is much cheaper to apply than hard chrome and it has to be applied to the entire barrel because there is no method for targeted application. LWRC is just full of themselves. Their TECHNOLOGY (http://www.lwrci.com/t-technology.aspx) page is filled with lies so big you don't know which one to go after first. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit...
I dont know, I would like to see some more data and long-term tesing results on the Ni-Corr barrel treatment before I write it off as not being a legitimate option to hard chrome lining. FN does what they are required to do per the TDP, No?
I still wouldn't buy a LWRCi to find out for myself, but if Ni-Corr has value as a barrel treatment it should be further explored.
N.Franklin
12-30-10, 22:23
I've not seen an LWRC gun yet that had carrier tilt. And I wouldn't say the are "much more expensive" as higher end AR's like Knights and Noveske are within a couple hundred bucks of LWRC.
My 16" barrel SR15 feels much lighter and well balanced than my 14.7" M6A2 (6.8 SPC). Both are rock solid rifles, Ive never had a malfunction with the KAC rifle and the only malfunctions Ive had with the LWRC were with Barrett magazines. Personally, I plan on changing the LWRC to a 12.7" upper, and that will probably be the extent of my dealings with LWRC. I have bought and built DI rifles for less that are completely reliable, accurate, and dont come with a weight penalty. The REPR is nice conceptually, but Im not currently looking to buy one.
DocHolliday01
12-31-10, 00:33
My 16" barrel SR15 feels much lighter and well balanced than my 14.7" M6A2 (6.8 SPC). Both are rock solid rifles, Ive never had a malfunction with the KAC rifle and the only malfunctions Ive had with the LWRC were with Barrett magazines. Personally, I plan on changing the LWRC to a 12.7" upper, and that will probably be the extent of my dealings with LWRC. I have bought and built DI rifles for less that are completely reliable, accurate, and dont come with a weight penalty. The REPR is nice conceptually, but Im not currently looking to buy one.
So you are comparing a 5.56 to a 6.8 gun?:confused:
Just because a rifle has supposedly seen combat (got any meaningful AARs, please share them!) does not mean it's all that.
You're right, it doesn't mean it's "all that" (and I didn't say it did) but there is the knowledge/experience gained by the manufacturer of actually having a gun "in theater". Why do you think people make "what ARs have actually been used in combat?" posts? They are interested in weapons with real world (if you can call this world real to anyone who isn't in it) experience and hence go back to the OPs (remember him/his question?) as to one of the pros of LWRC...they are being used in theater.
Specifically, meaningful AARs? Well, first I doubt I could provide you with what you would consider a meaningful AAR. What makes a AAR meaningful? Testing tends to be informal/impromptu if you will. Is many thousand of collective rounds down range in a hostile environment w/o any problems meaningful albeit anecdotal? All I can say is that the guys who have them like them and there have been no issues with the platform.
Please note that I did NOT say "and therefore LWRCs are better than any other rifle on the planet", but you should realize that a guy using an LWRC in Afghanistan probably has a whole lot of experience with a wide variety of other weapon systems and is therefore likely in a position to make an informed judgment on it's relative performance in a field environment.
N.Franklin
12-31-10, 10:33
So you are comparing a 5.56 to a 6.8 gun?:confused:
I am comparing a KAC rifle to LWRC, I left out recoil perception for that very reason. There is no difference in weight or balance between a 5.56 and 6.8 LWRC rifle until you add a loaded magazine. The SR15 is a better buy for the money, by a longshot.
I dont know, I would like to see some more data and long-term tesing results on the Ni-Corr barrel treatment before I write it off as not being a legitimate option to hard chrome lining. FN does what they are required to do per the TDP, No?
I still wouldn't buy a LWRCi to find out for myself, but if Ni-Corr has value as a barrel treatment it should be further explored.
FNC = Ferritic Nitrocarburzing
There are at least a dozen trademarked processes which use some form of FNC. Glock being the most visible with their Tenifer. While FNC does provide significant corrosion resistance over hard chrome, there just isn't another characteristic that makes it a good choice for a rifle barrel. I would love to see a mag dump test on an M6. I doubt it would get past 6 magazines and the failure would be catostrophic.
I am all in for a hard chrome substitute as long as the trade off, and there will be one, doesn't impact the other qualities of the existing "legacy" barrel.
FNC = Ferritic Nitrocarburzing
I would love to see a mag dump test on an M6. I doubt it would get past 6 magazines and the failure would be catostrophic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL2Z8m3y730
Watch from about 0:40 onwards. They do a full auto dump on what looks like an M6A2 out to about 420 rounds. Barrel and piston cup are glowing red, but there was no catastrophic failure.
There is a guy at the range I usually go to that bought him an SR15. It feels good in the hands and balances well. The only problems he has comes when he tries to shoot it. He has double feeds and FTE alot. He broke it down to clean it and it still does the same thing. He has used all kinds of magazines from Pmags to USGI mags. During his carbine course his SR15 went down on day one after 200 rounds and couldn't fire more than 5 rounds before a FTF. What did he pull out? He pulled out a 12.7" M6A3 and proceeds to finish the course without another problem.
Afterwards he said enough was enough and retired the SR15 to the safe. He sais he will give it another try later on, but he now uses his LWRC as his go-to gun. When asked why the change his response was very simple, "It just works, and doesn't ever stop."
I have shot everything from armalite to sig, and while the SR15 is a great quality piece, I prefer the LWRC for its reliability and the way it feels when I shoot it. It just feels like a natural part of my body.
ChicagoTex
12-31-10, 11:49
There is a guy at the range I usually go to that bought him an SR15. It feels good in the hands and balances well. The only problems he has comes when he tries to shoot it. He has double feeds and FTE alot. He broke it down to clean it and it still does the same thing. He has used all kinds of magazines from Pmags to USGI mags. During his carbine course his SR15 went down on day one after 200 rounds and couldn't fire more than 5 rounds before a FTF. What did he pull out? He pulled out a 12.7" M6A3 and proceeds to finish the course without another problem.
Afterwards he said enough was enough and retired the SR15 to the safe. He sais he will give it another try later on, but he now uses his LWRC as his go-to gun. When asked why the change his response was very simple, "It just works, and doesn't ever stop."
This is a bad joke, right? This guy plops $1500+ down on a gun, has an issue with it, and never bothers to contact the manufacturer - instead just sticking it in his safe and going with his "tried and true" LWRC?
1. I don't buy it.
2. That guy is either an idiot or a liar. In either case his anecdotal testimony is extremely suspect.
3. Even if I did buy it, it's a sample of one.
It's one thing to share your personal anecdotes, sharing something some guy you met at the range claimed that doesn't even make sense is a whole 'nother ball o' wax.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL2Z8m3y730
Watch from about 0:40 onwards. They do a full auto dump on what looks like an M6A2 out to about 420 rounds. Barrel and piston cup are glowing red, but there was no catastrophic failure.
Impressive. I wonder if the barrel was still serviceable. I doubt the sparks were from copper jackets. Those "sparks" were pieces of white hot steel coming from somewhere. The heat treating was certainly annealed out of the gas block and any other parts that were glowing. I would love to see the before and after photos of the operating system parts. It would tell us a lot. Information asymmetry is a bitch.
ChicagoTex
12-31-10, 12:39
The heat treating was certainly annealed out of the gas block and any other parts that were glowing.
This is precisely why, in my experience, any barrel shot to the point that it changes color is no longer serviceable, or straight for that matter.
The sparks were probably from the barrel starting to deform a bit.
This is a bad joke, right? This guy plops $1500+ down on a gun, has an issue with it, and never bothers to contact the manufacturer - instead just sticking it in his safe and going with his "tried and true" LWRC?
1. I don't buy it.
2. That guy is either an idiot or a liar. In either case his anecdotal testimony is extremely suspect.
3. Even if I did buy it, it's a sample of one.
It's one thing to share your personal anecdotes, sharing something some guy you met at the range claimed that doesn't even make sense is a whole 'nother ball o' wax.
I don't care if you believe him or not. I'm not here to try to impress anyone or argue for one gun or the other. If you read the first part he continuously had problems and yes, he did try to call knights and was met with no response. Get off KAC balls for a second and acknowledge that there may be some issues with some guns. Every brand has them, BCM, DD, Colt, KAC, LMT, LWRC, every company has a few lemons.
I personally own DD. I used to own LWRC and sold it for a cheaper rifle so I can spend some money on ammo and some training. I'm not saying the SR15 is a bad gun by any stretch of the imagination, it is the pinnacle of DI AR's. I'm just saying, is it so hard to believe that someone prefers a different gun over the SR15?
ChicagoTex
12-31-10, 13:20
I don't care if you believe me or not.
To be clear, it's not you I disbelieve because it's not your anecdote - it's his.
and yes, he did try to call knights and was met with no response.
That changes things a bit, as your original telling of the anecdote involved him sticking it in the safe after a few failures and planning to maybe come back to it later. As to not receiving any response: KAC is well known on this board for solid customer service, so that strikes me as odd. Do you know what his method of contact is? Did he follow up? I know if I had laid out that kind of investment and it was functioning as problematically as you describe I wouldn't stop until I had gotten satisfaction.
Get off KAC balls for a second and acknowledge that there may be some issues with some guns. Every brand has them, BCM, DD, Colt, KAC, LMT, LWRC, every company has a few lemons.
Since when is it "being on KAC's balls" to question that someone would shell out $1500+ for a reputable gun from a reputable company with a history of solid customer service, have lots of problems, and just stick it in the safe and chalk it up to a testament of how friggen great LWRC is (as your original telling of the anecdote indicated)?
Again, I'm not making any accusations of deception on your part, it's this guy on the range with a hard-to-swallow story that I take exception to.
I'm just saying, is it so hard to believe that someone prefers a different gun over the SR15?
That wasn't the punchline of the story. The punchline of the story was "KAC unreliable crap, LWRCs just work". It wasn't a comparison of preference, but of fundamental function.
I'm sorry if I came off as a little hostile. God knows I didn't want to. I just deal with alot of people telling me stories of how thier rock rivers are better than knights and such at the shop I work at, I get kind of bleh about the whole thing.
The guy I have been told kind of stretches the truth in some instances and makes it seem worse than it really is. I just know about knights not answering due to him bringing it in to me personally and I tried calling three times with no response.
Again, I'm sorry if I came off as crazy, my day has just been nothing short of bleh right now (and I didn't have my coffee this morning lol)
REPR looks like it runs pretty well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIfBKN9lgBI
Have any of the LWRC fans actually run their gun hard? I'm not talking about total rounds over the life of the weapon, I'm talking about a few mag dumps on full auto?
Probably not.
I have.
They recoil is hard as shit, still get dirty, still get hot, still heavier than a normal AR, seems to have more blow back with a Halo attached, seem to have tighter mag wells, and ultimately fail to extract a spent case because the case gets stuck in the chamber and the FZ coated extractor teeth just rip a chunk of the case. on mil-spec ammo when they get red hot. They claim to have a true 5.56 chamber, but I don't believe it.
Hey maybe we got a bad batch from LC or a bad batch of guns (more than 1 gun failed) from LWRC.
Did I mention they use the non mil spec extractor with the dual spring?
Based on my current and ongoing experience, I would never buy one with my own money.
If you really think they are "the answer", you are an idiot. They are an "ok" AR at best, not worth anything close to the asking price.
Stop lying to yourself and just save money; buy a DI Colt, LMT, DD, BCM.
Eaaaaasy Trigger! Why are you so angry? It is obvious that the debate on piston vs. DI is ongoing, but I think the jury is still out. Ultimately, those that constantly berate it are gonna be eating crow when the DoD adopts one. You won't be saying shit then. But, until that time if and when it happens, DI is proven, parts are available, and it works. I have no dog in this fight, I am a run what you brung type, but I am curious to your hostility.
Have any of the LWRC fans actually run their gun hard? I'm not talking about total rounds over the life of the weapon, I'm talking about a few mag dumps on full auto?
Probably not.
I have.
Run what full auto? Your LWRC or a DI weapon? Either way, what point are you trying to make?
They recoil is hard as shit, still get dirty, still get hot, still heavier than a normal AR, seems to have more blow back with a Halo attached, seem to have tighter mag wells, and ultimately fail to extract a spent case because the case gets stuck in the chamber and the FZ coated extractor teeth just rip a chunk of the case. on mil-spec ammo when they get red hot. They claim to have a true 5.56 chamber, but I don't believe it.
Throwing a flag here. The recoil is NOT "hard as shit". Much less dirty than DI. Slightly heavier than a DI, but not noticeable unless you are limper. No, not more blowback than a DI. Have not experienced 'tighter mag wells'.
Your whole descriptive dissertation on the cycling and extraction is out there, kinda like it came from the pages of a horror novel.
Hey maybe we got a bad batch from LC or a bad batch of guns (more than 1 gun failed) from LWRC.
Define “We”.
Did I mention they use the non mil spec extractor with the dual spring?
So.
Based on my current and ongoing experience, I would never buy one with my own money.
If you really think they are "the answer", you are an idiot. They are an "ok" AR at best, not worth anything close to the asking price.
Stop lying to yourself and just save money; buy a DI Colt, LMT, DD, BCM.
Tell us exactly what your “current and ongoing experience” is relative to the LWRC. I believe that was what the OP was asking. So far, all I have seen is vapid rhetoric about how much you dislike LWRC.
GLOCKMASTER
12-31-10, 15:30
Forum Rules. (http://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item)
I suggest that we step away from our keyboards and cool it. Then read the forum rules and especially rule #1. That's all I'm going to say about that.
DocHolliday01
12-31-10, 16:26
Have any of the LWRC fans actually run their gun hard? I'm not talking about total rounds over the life of the weapon, I'm talking about a few mag dumps on full auto?
Probably not.
I have.
They recoil is hard as shit, still get dirty, still get hot, still heavier than a normal AR, seems to have more blow back with a Halo attached, seem to have tighter mag wells, and ultimately fail to extract a spent case because the case gets stuck in the chamber and the FZ coated extractor teeth just rip a chunk of the case. on mil-spec ammo when they get red hot. They claim to have a true 5.56 chamber, but I don't believe it.
Hey maybe we got a bad batch from LC or a bad batch of guns (more than 1 gun failed) from LWRC.
Did I mention they use the non mil spec extractor with the dual spring?
Based on my current and ongoing experience, I would never buy one with my own money.
If you really think they are "the answer", you are an idiot. They are an "ok" AR at best, not worth anything close to the asking price.
Stop lying to yourself and just save money; buy a DI Colt, LMT, DD, BCM.
No not really. I dont see where people get that they recoil "hard as shit". Maybe it is the brake I have on mine but it actually shoots pretty soft. I have run 3-4 mags worth through my 10.5 on FA, smooth as a whistle. What exactly is your point though?
FChen17213
12-31-10, 18:35
I really hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a DI vs. Piston argument. The original poster was talking about LWRC which is just one piston brand.
That being said, the LWRC is one of the more known piston brands out there. The HK416 is probably the best known out there. I have heard of a few later QC issues about LWRC, but everything I have heard is hearsay so it is worth 0.
I will say this though. If you are going to bash LWRC just because it is a piston gun, I don't think that's what the original poster was looking for. He or she may have already chosen a piston platform and wanted to know the general quality of LWRC products. I really hate it when some people think all piston guns are crap and jump at every imaginable opportunity to bash them. Many many highly respectable shooters, own and run both DI and piston.
N.Franklin
12-31-10, 18:59
I've shot the 5.56 chambered rifles as well and thought it felt the same as my M4, my 6.8 definitely recoils more when shooting SSA Tactical loads. I originally ran it with a UBR but sold the stock and cannibalized another lower for the SOPMOD assembly to shave weight, the M6A2 with UBR, redimod, and two loaded Barrett mags reminded me of a 249 too much. While I favor DI guns over my LWRC, if you are hell bent on having a piston gun I would recommend the LWRC over every other available piston AR manufacturer. Don't get me started on POF (POS)...
Too heavy, too expensive. Other than that, outstanding.
Something else to consider; they are a relatively small company with no gov. contracts or anything(as far as I know). If they go out of business or, however unlikely, there is ever another AWB replacement parts will be close to impossible to find. With a DI rifle this will never be an issue. Just another thing to consider.
Here is my stock answer to the standard piston vs DI debate(more the LWRC part) Search and you see it over and over again, just different words. And I shoot lots of DIs and my pistons - I like them all.
I have LWRC 10.5" and 16" - Run them both very hard. Got the 10.5 for full-auto suppressed fire. Sucker has seen quite a few (thousands of rounds at this point) - At least 50% with a M42000 can. My only issue came when the rear screw of what would be the gas tube(solid since it is a piston) on the bolt carrier sheered off causing it to tilt and the tube bent. LWRC got me right. That upper has seen successive mag dumps with no issue and lots of bursts with a can.
My 16" has been to at least a half dozen LAV course firing Wolf or Barnule and never had a blip. Those Vickers courses tend to expose problems.
Cons - The LWRC does have a more sharp recoil, but not crazy harsh - really just different.
Cost - as an upper might cost as much as a complete Tier 1 rifle(I think LWRC has become Tier 1 -- have to check the Chart)
Pros - Eats everything - from all my handloads to cheap steel cased ammo. Full-auto - no problem!
Cleaning - I am the type of guy who still has that 1980s Army anal cleaning post every outing. Wow is the piston clean. And although gunk does get blown-in using a can, still easy to wipe off.
Dependable - I did have one problem/breakage, but if you would average both uppers rounds fired with that breakage, you would have lots of "9's" for percentage of up-time.
Something else to consider; they are a relatively small company with no gov. contracts or anything(as far as I know). If they go out of business or, however unlikely, there is ever another AWB replacement parts will be close to impossible to find. With a DI rifle this will never be an issue. Just another thing to consider.
They are used by DEA I believe
Littlelebowski
12-31-10, 22:06
They are used by DEA I believe
Not issue though. I believe the LWRCs are authorized for individual purchase.
ChicagoTex
12-31-10, 22:09
I'm sorry if I came off as a little hostile. God knows I didn't want to. I just deal with alot of people telling me stories of how thier rock rivers are better than knights and such at the shop I work at, I get kind of bleh about the whole thing.
The guy I have been told kind of stretches the truth in some instances and makes it seem worse than it really is. I just know about knights not answering due to him bringing it in to me personally and I tried calling three times with no response.
Again, I'm sorry if I came off as crazy, my day has just been nothing short of bleh right now (and I didn't have my coffee this morning lol)
No harm, no foul. I know how it goes.
It's interesting that the customer had you attempt to contact KAC rather than contact them himself.
Not trying to grill you, but I am curious about the specific details of your attempts to contact KAC, namely:
What number did you call? Were all three attempts on the same day? And did you/were you able to leave a message?
Returning to the subject, in my observation and experience LWRCs really aren't garbage. In general they seem to be built to roughly the same quality standards as top tier DI ARs and perform similarly. In fact, if I was forced to select a piston AR, LWRC and LMT are the only two brands I would consider.
If someone already owns an LWRC and likes it, there's no reason to get rid of it.
All that said, the pricing is daunting and if a buyer doesn't see any value to the piston system (like myself), then the cons outweigh the pros when compared to other similar quality products.
I was wondering how long it would take for you to post your venom.
FWIW, the segment he is talking about was one where they showed a suppressed REPR (it was called something else back then) in which the shooter had to hand-cycle the action with each shot. As it turns out they deliberately turned off the gas system in order to reduce the sound signature.
I've done the same on my M6A3 and yes, you do have to hand-cycle the action because the gas system is turned off (DUH!!).
I sent the shooter, Jeff, an email about that episode asking g what was up and why he cycled each round. He told me the film crew asked him to run it that way because they thought it looked better that way.
I don't own an LWRC and probably will not because of the cost. The guys who work for the company are outstanding folks and responsive to questions.
No harm, no foul. I know how it goes.
It's interesting that the customer had you attempt to contact KAC rather than contact them himself.
Not trying to grill you, but I am curious about the specific details of your attempts to contact KAC, namely:
What number did you call? Were all three attempts on the same day? And did you/were you able to leave a message?
I dialed the number on their home page. Yes, all three attempts were on the same day. I just kept getting hung up on after about 20 or so seconds when it was ringing. Maybe it was my connection or some other problem, I never encountered anything like it when I called in the past. I might have just called when they were busy. I just told him to call on his own.
and thanks for the clarification little lebowski, I couldn't remember if they were issued or not.
Back on topic, the LWRC to me is a great piston system if you are just hell bent on one. If you were in the market for a piston there are a few good options: LWRC, LMT, Addax, PWS, etc.... the piston system is, in my opinion a good and bad option. Good in that cleaning may be a bit easier, a bit more reliable (up in the air still), and some of the companies that make piston guns have some nice options on them (stock, handguards, and such). Now some negatives (just my opinion), some can be front heavy, parts may be at a premium if a company goes under, and there is no standarized system as pointed out earlier.
If you want a piston, LWRC is a great system, I have used them and in my opinion they are one of the best piston systems out there.
ChicagoTex
12-31-10, 23:45
I dialed the number on their home page. Yes, all three attempts were on the same day. I just kept getting hung up on after about 20 or so seconds when it was ringing. Maybe it was my connection or some other problem, I never encountered anything like it when I called in the past. I might have just called when they were busy. I just told him to call on his own.
Gotcha. Thanks for the info.
Black Jack
12-31-10, 23:53
I am sorry that I started this thread. My original intent was to get some feedback on the pros and cons of the LWRC from those who have used their products. I was not looking for a DI vs. Piston comparison. Unfortunately it can be very hard to get any usable feedback on Piston guns because it always seems to degenerate into a DI vs. Piston argument.
For all of those who actually answered my original question, Thanks!
For the others, I appreciate your desire to contribute, but it didn't help, in fact it actually made it harder for me to pull out the information I was looking for.
REPR looks like it runs pretty well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIfBKN9lgBI
Is this for real? Seriously? :rolleyes:
Cool graphics of skulls? Check.
Two "hardcore" idiots rolling around doing ninja moves with their guns in cammies? Check.
Shitty and obnoxious radio rock blaring? Check.
Their advertising is childish and caters to idiots, and that alone makes me immediately want to avoid any product they ever make. The fact that one of these guys is apparently an engineer makes me nervous, and frankly now I'm not surprised at all that their first run of REPRs had out of spec magwells that spit magazines out at random every 2 or 3 shots.
As far as I'm concerned, LWRC is the piston company that put enough work and money into "fixing" the AR until they finally got something that actually works in comparison to their competitors, which is basically like winning the special olympics. Then they outright lie on their "Technology" page about how great their clunky POS rifles are. Yet, despite all of this, they ask that you pay nearly double the price of any other AR for harsher recoil, an increase in weight, and no proven benefit.
I'll pass.
Failure2Stop
01-01-11, 00:13
I am sorry that I started this thread. My original intent was to get some feedback on the pros and cons of the LWRC from those who have used their products. I was not looking for a DI vs. Piston comparison. Unfortunately it can be very hard to get any usable feedback on Piston guns because it always seems to degenerate into a DI vs. Piston argument.
For all of those who actually answered my original question, Thanks!
For the others, I appreciate your desire to contribute, but it didn't help, in fact it actually made it harder for me to pull out the information I was looking for.
Well, since the OP is done I am locking this train-wreck.
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.