Kel-Tec Sub2000

[abnk]

Greetings, gents.


I'm not sure if this belongs in m4c.net, but I'll try my luck.

I am considering the carbine in question for several reasons:

1. I travel often and I like the idea of a "trunk gun".
2. It is compact and extremely concealable (for a carbine). It can be folded in half and fit in a laptop bag, backpack, and could be easily hidden in a car. And it can be brought to action by simply snapping it together.
2. Uses my pistol magazines.
3. Fills a gap for me as I don't have a 9mm carbine.
4. It is inexpensive for the gap it would fill.

All reviews that I have read acclaim the reliability of the Sub2000. Many were surprised by the accuracy. The only negative that I read from more than one person is the uncomfortable and awkward cheek-weld. That said, all these accounts come from, in Pat's words, the "errornet".

Does anyone anyone have any experience with them?

Thanks in advance.

[DRich]

I've had a 9mm Sub2k (Glock mags) for about 5yrs. It's kinda like an AK...ugly, inferior ergonomics, utterly reliable and decently accurate. I've fed it a steady diet (almost 3k rounds) of 115gr FMJ ammo and it's never had a FTF/FTE failure. However, it has had a handful of hard primer problems. It happens rarely enough that I don't know if its related to the ammo or to the gun.

For me, it's just a plinker. I shoot cans and steel poppers at 50yds while I wait for my other rifles to cool off. For the price I paid ($230 at a gun show), it's a bargain. I'd recommend them to anyone who wants an inexpensive, but reliable 9mm carbine to play with.

[Stephen_H]

I have had one for a little over 2 years now. I too use it as a trunk gun knowing that if it were ever stolen I would only be out about $400 bucks.

It is combat accurate, lightweight, compact, and with the Glock 33 round mags it has a substantial mag capacity. When loaded with +P cartridges it has near .357 magnum velocity out of the 16" barrel. It is simple and reliable.

The only negatives I can think of are the uncomfortable cheek-to-stock weld and the sharp recoil even with standard ammo. I spent a few bucks with Ashley at Blue Force Gear to purchase his SUB2000 upgrades. Namely the improved front sight post which replaces a poorly designed plastic piece with aa excellent AR15 sight compatible aluminum unit. Also, the improved charging handle is much easier on the hands during reloading.

I did a review of it here (http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9046084761/m/1461008431?r=7571055151#7571055151) on LF.net.

Stephen

[Shihan]

What the others above said, dont pay more than 330.00 for it. Becareful when taking it apart as cheapie litle springs and detens may shoot out acroos the room or into your yeye. Also the takedown pin can go in either way and its not specified in the instructions which way for it to go. But if it goes in the other way its a PIA to get it out and you either have to hammer it or send it in to Keltec. Also the stock digs into the shoulder and is on the painful side I find and is alot more comfortable with the stock extension.

[abnk]

Thank you, everyone. It sounds like the Sub2000 is exactly what I thought of it.

Stephen, I saw your thread is from 2005. How's the paint holding? Also do you know if anyone else sells aftermarket front sights? Blue Force Gear does not seem to carry them anymore.

[TOrrock]

I tried really hard to hate them when I sold them, but honestly, for what they are, they work great. They eat factory JHP with no issues.

[Stephen_H]

Thank you, everyone. It sounds like the Sub2000 is exactly what I thought of it.

Stephen, I saw your thread is from 2005. How's the paint holding? Also do you know if anyone else sells aftermarket front sights? Blue Force Gear does not seem to carry them anymore.

Drop them a line or call them. It is my understanding that they are going to do an improved version of these soon. I don't know of anywhere else that does an aftermarket front sight for the SUB2000.

If I get some more info on it I'll post it here.

Stephen

[Joe Mamma]

I also have a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 that takes Glock mags. It's got the feel and ergonomics of a cheap, crappy, plastic gun . . . but, I really like the gun!

The only things I would add is that you are not supposed to use aluminum case ammo (CCI Blazer) with it. Also, the only ammo that I remember having problems with is CCI Blazer Brass. I have no idea why but, I regularly get failure to extract/stovepipe jams with it. I have shot a lot of different ammo and can't remember having any problems with anything else.

It not my first choice for a last resort SHTF gun but, it's a good choice for a trunk gun.

By the way, below are some chrono numbers I have that will give you an idea of the kind of velocities you will get with one. I had posted this on various forums a long time ago but, I thought you might want to see it.


* * * * * * *
Here are some of my recent tests out of a Glock 17 (4.5" barrel) and a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 carbine (16.1" barrel). I used the Kel-Tec because I was curious to see how much velocity would be gained by a longer barrel with the various ammo that I tested. Everyone has a theory but, one test is worth a thousand theories.

If it matters, testing conditions were about 40 degrees farenheit. All testing was done on the same day.

I am by no means an authority on ballistics. I welcome all feedback and comments.


Ammo Description (Product Code)
average velocity with G-17, average velocity with Kel-Tec Sub 2000

1. Federal NATO, 124gr FMJ (M882)
1114, 1231

2. Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr +P+ JHP (P9HS3G1)
1167, 1321

3. Winchester USA Brand ("White Box") Hollow Points 115gr JHP (USA9JHP)
1149, 1305

4. Winchester USA Brand ("White Box") Hollow Points 147gr JHP (USA9JHP2)
1020, 1117

5. CCI Blazer Brass 115 gr FMJ (5200)
1120, 1299

6. CCI Blazer Aluminum 115gr FMJ (3509)
1153, [did not test in my Kel-Tec b/c aluminum cased ammo is not recommended; but, I was tempted . . . ]

7. Sellier & Bellot 115 gr FMJ (80166-00902)
1162, 1296

8. Geco/Dynamit Nobel 124gr (23364-12585)
1129, 1256

9. Magtech 147gr "FMC-FLAT" (891798-001347)
969, 1096
* * * * * * *

Joe Mamma

[tpd223]

Yes, I realize this is an awesome level of necropost, but I thought it better than starting a whole new thread.

For the folks who have had a sub2000, now that it's three years since this thread was started, how has your carbine held up?

I've always been interested in one of these for the Glock mags, since I carry Glock 9mms, and I'd like to have a discrete long gun for road trips and traveling.

[joshua79109]

Mine started off bad. Had an issue with the safety, trigger, FTFs, and FTEs.

Had to go back to Kel-Tec twice. Their customer service was excellent.

Now it runs well. Very accurate and fun to use. I added the rubber cover for better cheek weld (not as hot).

I enjoy it, but would not grab it to protect my family. I really wanted to be able to use it as a protection firearm in some specific scenarios, but I've never been able to trust it in that role. It is interesting enough to me that I keep it and tinker with it. It is the only firearm I have that I do not fully trust - it's the only one I've ever kept that I don't fully trust.

[Caeser25]

My best friend has had one for 9 years. It runs like a clock with factory glock mags, cheekweld sucks, I don't like the sights but they are accurate. Everytime I shoot it I tell myself I'm gonna buy one but haven't yet:(

[carbinero]

I had one and made it work but never really liked to shoot it. fold and carry, yes. shoot, no. If I was in the market for that sort of thing again, I'd look really closely at a Hipoint. But I'm not. I just don't feel comfortable trusting my life with those things, and that's a pre-requisite for my gun purchases. I guess the closest thing which I would consider would be an SKS, considering (a) carbine and (b) cost.

[Texas Patriot]

I have one in the Beretta configuration and it is very dependable and accurate. The rifling in the barrel looked pretty crappy, but it shoots really well in any event. I have shot it about 400 rounds and no problems at all. Mine is still stock with only a KelTec sling added to it. I use the 15, 20 and 30 round mags and all work fine.

I am surprised at its accuracy and was a little surprised at the recoil from the gun. But I like it as a compact truck gun, plinker, fun gun. I originally got it for home defense, and still keep it nearby the bed, but there's lots of other stuff I grab first, like 12 ga or .357 mag. It was a good $300 or so investment for me.

[tpd223]

OK, so I bought that sub 2000 I had been looking at for awhile, $320 seemed really decent from what I have found on the intardnets for a new in the box gun.

Bought the G17 mag 9mm version, a couple of weeks ago, and first day at the range shot a 31 round mag of each of the following types of rounds;

124gr +P Gold Dot
115gr WWB ball
115gr Remington bulk pack JHP
124gr +P Winchester Ranger-T
115gr Cor Bon JHP
124gr Geco/RWS ball

and ten rounds each of;

127gr +P+ Winchester Ranger-T
Cor Bon 100gr PowRball
Some FMJ factory reloads of unknown origin (I think they were HSM "Montana Gold" but I forget).

...with no fails-to-anything to report, perked right along without any drama so far.


This little gun has a surprising amount of recoil for a 9mm, not objectionable to me, but noticeable, like twice as much as say an M4 carbine.

I was at the 25 that day and it was accurate with all of the ammo I put through it, in context that is, it ain't a sniper rifle but it seems about as accurate as my 10-22 off-hand and from a barricade rest.

I sure wish those BFG front sights were still available, that would be the shit.


I finally got a chance to zero the gun about a week after initially firing it and ran both our pistol and patrol rifle qual courses, cleaned them both.

Since then I have also tried a number of other ball and JHP rounds, it feeds everything so far.

I wasn't going to clean the gun till it choked, but after passing it around at an in-service range day I was helping instruct I lost count of how many rounds had gone through it, well over 500 now, so I stripped it down out of curiosity, wiped the crud off the bolt, lightly oiled, and banged off another 31 round mag of 124gr ball to be sure I had put the gun back together correctly.

I like it so far.

[xjustintimex]

Bringing this back from the dead to ask a question. I have both .40 and 9mm glocks. Which would be more effective from this platform? I dont know if I want to get one in 9 or .40 and it will really come down to performance

[bigghoss]

If you choose good ammo there is not a huge difference in effectiveness between 9mm and .40.

Check here to get more info on the effectiveness of standard service calibers
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

After reading this thread I kinda wish I would have looked a bit harder at the two I saw at the last gunshow.

[Buckshot TX]

The BFG front sight was nice, but this one might be even better! http://www.redlionprecision.com/31612.html

[Clobbersauras]

Sorry for the necro post, but I don't see the need to start a new thread. I was wondering if anyone would care to post their long term experience with the Sub 2000? I'm specifically wondering how these little carbines hold up under higher round counts.