View Full Version : ]IR LASERS NOW AVAILABLE FOR FULL LEGAL COMMERCIAL SALES
Hello all,
This is the day so many of you have been waiting for. I cannot tell you how many phone calls we receive each and every week asking us why we cannot sell you an IR laser. Well today everyone's ship has come in!
Laser Devices which we are their top level distributor, has just announced at Shot Show their new line of Class I IR lasers for sale to the commercial market. We are finally VERY happy to offer the following IR devices.
DBAL-I2 MSRP EA. ($966.00) - Dual Beam - Vis. Red Pointer/IR Pointer
EOLAD-1I ($1440.00)
ITAL-Classic ($678.00)
OTAL-Classic ($678.00)
Specifications:
Type: Infrared
Wavelength: 835nm
Class: 1 (Eye Safe)
Beam Divergence: 0.3 mrad
Range (75-100m)
Temp Range: -40C - +51C
We have begun to start taking orders. You may email our sales Dept We are EXTREMELY happy to finally offer LEGAL and FULLY warrantied (1 year DBAL-I2/ITAL/OTAl & 2 year EOLAD 1I) IR lasers to the commercial market. Thanks all.
P.S. Clasky will be along to show performance characteristics of the units with some pics. We should have these on our web site shortly as well.
Full Web Site Listings
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-i2-class-1-ir-laser/
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-otal-class-1-ir-laser/
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-ital-class-1-ir-laser/
Vic
Vic,
Do you know how this came about? Was there a change in FDA regulations?
Vic,
Do you know how this came about? Was there a change in FDA regulations?
I believe Chappy from LMS defense had a lot to do with it, plus the power has been turned down on both the IR laser and vis laser. I have been following this and am interested.
Actually, LDI got a variance from the FDA. These Class1 lasers are low power enough to be eye safe. I still wouldn't go shining it directly into someone's eyes, but it is considered safe enough for commercial sale. We will have them on the website soon.
Magic_Salad0892
01-25-11, 22:42
This is really, really bad.
For my wallet.
And my OTAL, that's getting replaced.
Guessing they are still completely ITAR regulated and no way we can get them here in the Great White North?
The fact that the FDA has any authority over non-medical laser use is amazing to me. Maybe some other Gov agency but why FDA?
There are other high intensity light radiating items that are not covered. Welding arcs for example. Will the FDA shut down a welding shop for letting out light? I think not.
BTW - Laser Electro-Optics deg here.
/rant
Guessing they are still completely ITAR regulated and no way we can get them here in the Great White North?
Yes, they are ITAR controlled.
Alright gentlemen, here is my initial report. we have them on the shelf and ready go as we speak.
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-i2-class-1-ir-laser/
I'm working on getting the OTAL and ITAL versions up right now, but they are also in stock. Let's start with the function.
To start off, these are low power units to make them eye safe. While a standard issue AN/PEQ-15 or AN/PEQ-15A is at least 5mW with higher power units available, the average civie doesn't need this kind of range anyway. Outside targeting, one of the main functions of an IR laser is communication- especially with Aerial Units. They can be used to point out distant targets to air or other ground teams. But, this needs to be mitigated with the fact that you can really only point out as far as you can see with your NVGs. While Gen3 can see a long distance, positive ID of a potential threat under non magnified NVGs becomes somewhat difficult past 100 yards. The longest shot I have made off hand in this capacity was with an AN/PVS-7B and an Israeli-made IR Laser from ITL on my weapon at just over 200 yards. While anecdotal, the vast majority of laser use in my career has been at ranges of 100 yards in.
This is perfect for the new Class1 lasers since they are maxing out at 100 yards. The manual says they are good to 75 meters. I took my trusty laser rangefinder out over the past couple nights and decided to get my own test data. 75 yards yielded a very visible pointer. I was very impressed with the beam divergence because the shape was quite circular. But, I was able to push it out to 100 yards + (albeit the pointer tended to start dropping off quick past about 115 yards). But, it performed very well. The photos you see on our website are during cloudy/no moon conditions.
The nice thing about the lower power is that it lends itself very well to CQB applications. The problem with the full power units is that they bloom all over the place at close range. Depending on the environment, this can be exacerbated by light colored walls. It is often hard to make pinpoint accurate shots at close range because of the large halo produced by the back splash. The lower power of the Class1 lasers produces reduced splash and more accuracy potential.
One of the things I was worried about was the affect of an IR illuminator in addition to the reduced power laser. I afraid that the illuminator might wash out the pointer. I generally run an illuminator and pointer in tandem during MOUT/CQB scenarios. The DBAL-I2 Class1 substitutes the IR Illuminator of the full power version with a visible Class IIIa laser. This is because traditional IR illuminators built into multi function laser units like the DBAL are built from lasers as well (Class IIIb). They require a higher output to create the wide, focusable beams. There is really no way to produce this affect with 0.07mW (the maximum output for eye safe). So, a handy visible laser was substituted for the illuminator in the DBAL-I2 variant. As stated previously, the visible laser is available in red or green. Now I know some of you are saying "what about the LED IR Illuminators like the ELR torch-V and Surefire Vampire?" Yes, you can get a very impressive, eye safe, IR Illuminator out of an LED. But, the components would not fit in the legacy body housings of the DBAL-I2, OTAL, and ITAL. So, you just gotta use an auxiliary IR Illuminator.
This brings us to another great feature: LDI is using legacy body housings for the Class1 units. This is extremely exciting because they make (in my opinion) the most robust Mil Spec laser housings on the market. All housings are precision machined and milspec coated aerospace grade aluminum. The mounts are removable, but there is no reason to do so. LDI launched their extremely impressive HT throw lever mount last year and it quickly became my favorite throw lever mount. Chappy had a big hand in the design, but suffice to say, it is very strong, well-made, and self adjusting. The last part is important. I tend to not use a lot of throw levers on my guns. I jumped into the whole throw lever thing with everyone else several years ago, but came to the conclusion that I am rarely (if ever) removing accessories from my guns once they are set up. So, throw levers just added extra weight and snag points. My job requires that I have extra bells and whistles like IR lasers on my guns anyway, so every shaved ounce counts. But, most lasers came with throw lever mounts. LDI used to use ARMS mounts. Back in the day, I would replace them with Larue mounts. The problem was the LT mounts required the wrench to adjust the tension to varying dimensioned rails. Once the mount was attached, the space between the adjustment nut and laser body was too tight to fit the wrench. So, adjusting it was a PITA. But, LDI's new HT mount is completely self-adjusting, doesn't have a bunch of small breakable parts, and is as strong as the LT mounts (in my opinion). Also, the metal to metal contact with the rail is a major plus for durability - unlike the ATPIAL.
There are a lot of fly-by-night companies that have tried to develop and market civie-legal IR lasers over the years. Most fell on their faces. The few that worked, were never durable enough to make it past airsoft. So, along comes LDI with true civie-legal IR lasers in MilSpec housings that have been proven in the fight against Hadji. They function well, test better than the stated specs, and even have benefits over standard power units in CQB situations. I am very impressed with the performance of these units. They fill a large empty space in the market.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/EE/DBAL_I2_Class1/DBALI2_C1_1.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/EE/DBAL_I2_Class1/DBALI2_C1_2.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/EE/DBAL_I2_Class1/DBALI2_C1_6.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/EE/DBAL_I2_Class1/DBALI2_C1_7.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/EE/DBAL_I2_Class1/DBALI2_C1_8.jpg
variablebinary
01-27-11, 13:08
Any chance for an FDE model?
Any chance for an FDE model?
FDE will be available sometime next month we are told. For now, black is the only color being produced. Thank you.
Gents, our current pricing on the whole line of Class 1 IR devices from LDI is listed on our web site. http://www.tnvc.com/shop/category/laser-systems/ The ITAL Class 1 is not listed just yet, but is the same price as the OTAL Class 1. Thanks all.
Vic
How badly is the range limited with some ambient washout?
These look fantastic paired with a Scout Light and Vampire head, I'm just not confident yet that the lower output will work in every condition yet.
There will be some washout with ambient light. They will not work as well as full power units in all conditions, but they are still visible. One of the things that helps is the natural ability of your eyes to pick up on movement. Weapons are never held completely still and the laser will move with the bore. Your eyes focus on this movement, helping to keep it in view at distance.
Again, these are not going to work for every situation. If you are surrounded by a lot of ambient light, chances are you could come off NV anyway.
Will the Surefire SR 07 switch work with the Otal and Ital ? I've read the descriptions between the two but still can't really decipher the difference ? Is it safe to assume that the pic with the vampire, it's on the low setting ?
Are these lasers about the same strength as a PEQ2/15 on low power mode, or are they weaker?
Will the Surefire SR 07 switch work with the Otal and Ital ? I've read the descriptions between the two but still can't really decipher the difference ? Is it safe to assume that the pic with the vampire, it's on the low setting ?
Yes, the Surefire SR07D will work with the OTAL/ITAL units. LDI has switched the plugs to the universal style instead of the legacy one they were using. The Surefire Vampire was on standard setting.
Are these lasers about the same strength as a PEQ2/15 on low power mode, or are they weaker?
They are weaker than a standard PEQ15 on low power. Even at low power, the standard unit is putting out more than 5mW. It has to in order to be useful to military units.
>0.1mW is considered eye safe by the FDA. Class1 lasers are 0.07mW in order to err on the safe side. LDI could get in trouble with the federal government for making one that is even 0.01mW higher than the safe spec. While lasers are exacting, there is always the chance that these units could +/-0.01mW or more. So, LDI is not taking any chances. There are some other less-responsible makers, who in the past have made non-eye safe lasers and gotten in trouble with the Feds.
LDI is a major government contractor/supplier to the DoD. They make incredibly rugged and trusted kit. But, civie sales are not their focus. It took no small amount of prodding from sources inside and outside the company to get them to try this market. So, they are being very careful to make sure they stay within the safe zone.
So, yes: these are low power lasers. They will get you out to around 100 yards. There will be some washout with bright lights, but it is simply the limitation of what can be produced according to law. However, these lasers will work for 90% of what civilians want to do with them.
variablebinary
01-31-11, 04:14
Question: Do you believe or have you heard anything about Insight going the same route?
Question: Do you believe or have you heard anything about Insight going the same route?
This will most likely never happen. Insight is concerned with government contracts. That is their bread and butter. They put the vast majority of their resources towards the DoD side of the house and barely even support their LE sales. In fact, they have added so much red tape to the LE agency purchase process since the L3 buyout, that it is a real hassle for LE departments to purchase their product. Insight's thoughts towards the commercial market take a far back seat. Basically, they want you to buy their flashlights.
While I hate to say "never," I would be extremely surprised to see them even think of doing this.
Fried Chicken Blowout
01-31-11, 17:10
Okay, help me out here... Because I'm ignorant. I get that these are IR Lasers so they can only be seen with night vision goggles, correct?
These are useful for those wearing night vision goggles because standard iron and optical sights are difficult to use with night vision goggle?
For sale in the USA this sounds like only LEO would have a practical use for them. Were they not available to LEO before due to the FDA blocking their sale?
As a civilian WITHOUT night vision goggles, does this provide a use that I'm not picking up on? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something useful here...
I don't know anything about these IR systems, but I thought that the laser can be seen as a straight line instead of just a dot.
Is there a version that allows a laser to be seen as a straight line or have I been fooled?
Okay, help me out here... Because I'm ignorant. I get that these are IR Lasers so they can only be seen with night vision goggles, correct?
These are useful for those wearing night vision goggles because standard iron and optical sights are difficult to use with night vision goggle?
For sale in the USA this sounds like only LEO would have a practical use for them. Were they not available to LEO before due to the FDA blocking their sale?
As a civilian WITHOUT night vision goggles, does this provide a use that I'm not picking up on? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something useful here...
IR lasers are only visible through NVGs. These Class1 lasers are available to to the commercial market in the US. Without NV, it would just be something that looks cool on your weapon.
The reason for having it is most NV is designed to be head-mounted. While wearing NV on the head, you can't use your optics and certainly cannot see your irons. The laser is the targeting system. Without it, head-mounted NV is simply an observation device.
Belmont31R
01-31-11, 18:00
Okay, help me out here... Because I'm ignorant. I get that these are IR Lasers so they can only be seen with night vision goggles, correct?
These are useful for those wearing night vision goggles because standard iron and optical sights are difficult to use with night vision goggle?
For sale in the USA this sounds like only LEO would have a practical use for them. Were they not available to LEO before due to the FDA blocking their sale?
As a civilian WITHOUT night vision goggles, does this provide a use that I'm not picking up on? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something useful here...
You need a NV device to see the laser/dot. IR is beyond the human spectrum of sight so unless you have something to view that spectrum through you aren't going to see anything. The reason they are restricted in higher powers is because they can still burn your eyes even though you can't see them.
I don't know anything about these IR systems, but I thought that the laser can be seen as a straight line instead of just a dot.
Is there a version that allows a laser to be seen as a straight line or have I been fooled?
Standard power IR lasers usually allow you to see the laser beam. The darker the surroundings, the brighter the beam tends to be. Due to the lower power of Class1, you cannot see as much of the beam. It is there, but just pretty faint.
variablebinary
03-08-11, 08:33
I don't know anything about these IR systems, but I thought that the laser can be seen as a straight line instead of just a dot.
Is there a version that allows a laser to be seen as a straight line or have I been fooled?
You want the light show, huh :p
http://www.tnvc.com/shop/images/8396/
variablebinary
03-08-11, 08:37
FDE will be available sometime next month we are told. For now, black is the only color being produced. Thank you.
I noticed on TOS you said you sold out an FDE batch. Any pics by chance? Mounted to a weapon would be even better ;)
Also, when mounted at the 12 o'clock, does the DBAL obscure any of the sight sight picture of an Eotech 552?
I've seen very low profile mounts like this
http://www.morovision.com/images/dbal-a3-xps-mntd.jpg
http://www.morovision.com/images/dbal-a3-whitelight-setup.jpg
Which I would prefer over an "elevated" mount like this
http://www.laserdevices.com/webart/products/130_0a.jpg
You shouldn't have any problems with sight picture. They would not make anything that interferes with standard combat optics.
nobody knows
01-16-12, 19:26
Will they be making a model with both a visibly and IR laser in the feature? Thanks never mind I just visited the website and it does have a visible setting.
What model are you speaking of?
So, having read this thread, and looking around the site, I see the dual IR/Visible laser units. Specifically, the DBAL models.
I have several questions.
First, the battery listed is the DL123. On sites that sell batteries, this is interchangeable with the CR123 batteries. Is this in fact true for these units?
Second, I see it is available with the visible laser being either red or green. In say, bright sunny afternoon daylight (worst case), how far is the red laser point visible versus the green laser point?
Third, if the green is actually more visible, do these units suffer from failing to work in cold weather, down around freezing, as I hear the green lasers do?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Saw the review of the new unit with the illuminator in the optics section. That answered my question about visible distance comparison of the green versus red in daylight.
However, I'm still wondering about the operating temp range limitations, if there are any. Seems green lasers get dim in cold weather, down about 30 degrees. Where I live, this is easily reachable in the winter, so it is important to me. I want one either way, just trying to figure out whether the red or green visible laser is the best choice. I didn't know if the cold weather problem has been corrected or not.
No one seems to talk about it, but then everything seems to be happening in warmer climates.
Saw the review of the new unit with the illuminator in the optics section. That answered my question about visible distance comparison of the green versus red in daylight.
However, I'm still wondering about the operating temp range limitations, if there are any. Seems green lasers get dim in cold weather, down about 30 degrees. Where I live, this is easily reachable in the winter, so it is important to me. I want one either way, just trying to figure out whether the red or green visible laser is the best choice. I didn't know if the cold weather problem has been corrected or not.
No one seems to talk about it, but then everything seems to be happening in warmer climates.
In cold climates, red lasers will perform better than green. If you climate spends a good deal of cold weather, stick with the red vis lasers.
Vic
Thanks for the response, that's kind of where I was leaning.
I ordered both a DBAL-D2 and a DBAL-I2 from TNVC for my rifles to go along with my PVS-14 from TNVC. Will post some night hunting results once I get them assimilated...
What explains the huge difference in height between those pictures?
I've seen very low profile mounts like this
http://www.morovision.com/images/dbal-a3-xps-mntd.jpg
http://www.morovision.com/images/dbal-a3-whitelight-setup.jpg
Which I would prefer over an "elevated" mount like this
http://www.laserdevices.com/webart/products/130_0a.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/DBAL%20I2/DBAL%20I2%20Left%20Front%20II.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/DBAL%20I2/DBAL%20I2%20Left.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/DBAL%20I2/DBAL%20I2%20Top.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/DBAL%20I2/DBAL%20I2%20Olight%20M3X.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/LASTAC%202%20IR%20Pistol%20Laser/LASTAC2%20175%20yards.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/Night%20Vision%20Kills/556%20&%20FLIR.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/NV%20Coyote/NV%20Coyote%202.jpg
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T50/T50%20Coyote%20NV.jpg
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