"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"

[rob_s]

Lately there seem to be quite a few posts from people that are new to the AR in general, or new to this site in particular, that are starting to educate themselves and are feeling a bit of buyer's remorse. The "damn, I bought a $900 Bushmaster when I could have had an LMT for $1k" feeling is nothing new as people begin to educate themselves, and is not unique to the firearms enthusiast.

First of all, it's important to note that the below only really applies to guns intended for defensive, or offensive, purposes. If you really only ever intended your rifle as a plinker there isn't much need to do any of the below because the worst thing that will ever happen if your rifle fails to function will be that it will end your day at the range and several coke-cans will be spared that day. If, however, you envision ever needing to use this rifle for any kind of so called "hard use", then you owe it to yourself to at least do the following.

I believe that "The Chart" (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642) is having a negative impact in this regard. People are coming here and finding out that the gun they bought is sitting on the middle-to-right-side of the chart and are wondering if they made a bad choice. The answer is "probably not".

I have noticed quite a few threads in which Bushmaster, Rock River, Stag, etc. owners are starting to ask what they should do to their rifle to try to "move it to the left" on the chart. Some are even asking if they need to scrap their rifle entirely and buy a new one from the left side of the chart. The answer is "probably not".


Whether you have had the carbine for years with thousands of "trouble free" rounds through it (real-world rounds, not internet rounds) or you just bought the rifle, have hardly fired it, but are already starting to feel that buyer's remorse, don't fret. There are some very basic things you can do to improve your carbine and ensure better reliability.

1) Check the carrier key for proper staking. How do you know if it's properly staked? Go here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993) and educate yourself. If yours doesn't look right, follow the instructions to correct it or send it out to have someone else correct it.

2) Check the extractor spring and insert to insure that the insert is black. Go here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=435&highlight=extractor) to learn about extractor inserts, springs, and O-rings. This is something anyone can install themselves.

3) Check the receiver extension end-plate for proper staking. How do you know if it's properly staked? Go here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6994) and educate yourself. If yours doesn't look right, follow the instructions to correct it or send it out to have someone else correct it.

4) Buy an "H" buffer if your carbine doesn't have it. Go here (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=5136&highlight=buffer) to learn why. Go here (http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/buffers/) to see the different kinds of buffers. This is something anyone can install themselves.

5) Buy a properly tested, staked, constructed bolt carrier group (BCG) with the proper extractor insert. The bolt itself should be Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_particle_inspection), Shot Peened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_peening), and Proof Fired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test). You can buy a top quality BCG from Bravo Company (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm), G&R Tactical (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-FN&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dgroup%20bolt%20carrier%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html) or LMT (http://www.lewismachine.net) for around $130. You can either change out to this BCG right away, or use the one that came with your rifle until it breaks and then switch it out. The choice is yours.

Hopefully the above is helpful. Obviously, if you have that "thousands of trouble free rounds" DPMS, you may feel perfectly comfortable with leaving it alone. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about, how secure YOU feel in the thought that you may use this carbine for self, family, or society defense.

[gotm4]

Very good thread Rob_S. :)

Many are panicking after learning the differences of the quality of parts when that was never the intention. The intention was just to show 'just as good as'.......isn't (or as us southerners say) 'ain't' ;).

[120mm]

How about using a Ned Christiansen's chamber reamer on it? And polishing the chamber, as well?

[gotm4]

How about using a Ned Christiansen's chamber reamer on it? And polishing the chamber, as well?

The reamer should really only be used when the rifle has problems with blown primers (with NATO pressure ammo) or some weird extraction problems etc which beefed up extractors/springs/o-rings and heavier buffers don't cure. It shouldn't be used as a pre-emptive strike.

Polishing the chamber shouldn't be required. If using a chrome lined barrel it will polish out all by itself with each round fired.

[white spaniard]

Basically what your saying is to keep current rifle and doing upgrades to it? I have a Stag and thinking of selling it to buy a friends LMT.

[KintlaLake]

...people that are new to the AR in general, or new to this site in particular, that are starting to educate themselves and are feeling a bit of buyer's remorse.

How about buyer's relief? :D

My semi-informed purchase of the S&W M&P 15 (later production, as it turns out) got me #1 and #3; on Tuesday I bought a spare bolt equipped with #2; and in the near future I'll do #5.

Question about #4: How can I determine (other than asking S&W) if my M&P 15 (base model) is equipped with an H buffer? Never mind...I just checked The Chart. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Good thread, rob_s, a great example of why I'm hanging out in these forums.

[Grin Reaper]

It's posts like these that make me ask why the rest of the internet can't work like this forum. This forum is blessedly short on "I heard from this guy"-stories, and long on "I've done the research, I've thought it through, here's the deal."
Thanks, rob.

[Lumpy196]

This thread NEEDED to be posted.

Good job Rob.

[toddackerman]

Great post Rob!

[Erick Gelhaus]

Nicely done Rob.

[C4IGrant]

Basically what your saying is to keep current rifle and doing upgrades to it? I have a Stag and thinking of selling it to buy a friends LMT.


My personal opinion is that you cannot and should not put lipstick on a pig. I would make sure everything is staked properly and call it a day. If the weapon breaks or your have the chance to sell it then I would get rid of it and get something else.

The problem with upgrading components and or adding items to make the weapon better will not be appreciated by the next buyer as they most likely won't know anything about the purpsose of the upgrades (and most likely doesn't want to pay for them).


C4

[mmike87]

I think perusing this forum should be required reading before making any AR purchase. :)

As one of the folks who made two "under informed" purchases of RRA rifles, I have performed many of the "fixes" mentioned above. It's not hard or expensive. I'm not done yet, but am working towards getting them where I want them to be.

I am also not panicking about it either, nor am I having horrible nightmares about by non-MP tested RRA bolt failing at the very instant the Zombie Horde crests the hill. But I am aware of what I do and do not have, and where I'd like to be ultimately. In time, everything will be as close to how it should be as I can get it.

But with the money spent on "fixes" and "upgrades" I easily could have purchased a Colt or LMT rifle.

[Shihan]

My personal opinion is that you cannot and should not put lipstick on a pig. I
C4

Grant you must of met my exwife.

[Shihan]

I think a few stages of buyers remorse hit the new people who start reading on this forum. This can be seen by their posts.

1. They are WRONG! my rifle is as good!
2. Tell me about staking?
3. Mine isnt staked right!
4. How do I stake it right?
5. I love you guys!

[toddackerman]

Grant you must of met my exwife.


Shit! Beat me to it!!!

Tack

[mmike87]

Grant you must of met my exwife.

Wow, that's HARSH!

[C4IGrant]

I think a few stages of buyers remorse hit the new people who start reading on this forum. This can be seen by their posts.

1. They are WRONG! my rifle is as good!
2. Tell me about staking?
3. Mine isnt staked right!
4. How do I stake it right?
5. I love you guys!


6. Does Mil-Spec matter?
7. My DPMS follows a higher spec than the TDP (what is the TDP again)?


C4

[Shihan]

6. Does Mil-Spec matter?
7. My DPMS follows a higher spec than the TDP (what is the TDP again)?


C4


1. They are WRONG! my rifle is as good!
2. Tell me about staking?
3. Does Mil-Spec matter?
4. My DPMS follows a higher spec than the TDP (what is the TDP again)?
5. Mine isnt staked right!
6. How do I stake it right?
7. I love you guys!

I changed the numbering and added Grants additions as the I love you guys part comes if the newbie sticks around long enough to actually listen and learn and at the end is a happy camper he was educated.

[dubb-1]

Rob and I might not see eye-to-eye if the human race depended on it, but this is a good thread. Possibly the wrong venue (preaching to the choir), but good thread.

[DrMark]

I figured a thread like this was coming, as there has been a need for something like this. Well done, Rob.

...this is a good thread. Possibly the wrong venue (preaching to the choir), but good thread.
Yes, much on here may be preaching to the choir, but thanks to referrals and ads in SWAT and Shotgun News, new people are visiting the church every day. Discussions like the one in this thread will convince some to join the choir and that is a good thing. Can I get an Amen?

(5 yard penalty for overuse of an analogy?)

Also, presenting this info in the venues that most need it tends to go over like a fart in church.

(sorry, the analogy again)

Mark

[CarlosDJackal]

...Possibly the wrong venue (preaching to the choir), but good thread.

Sometimes it's a good idea to remind the choir what the actual lyrics are to a song that they may have sung (and possibly butchered) a thousand times already!! ;)

This thread should be a sticky!!

[gotm4]

Sometimes it's a good idea to remind the choir what the actual lyrics are to a song that they may have sung (and possibly butchered) a thousand times already!! ;)

This thread should be a sticky!!


Instead of making it a sticky I've installed a link to it in the FAQ/Knowledge base thread of the AR Technical forum.

[aloharover]

Regarding the 5.56 chamber reamer and chrome lined barrels...

Aren't you cutting through the chrome?

Pete

[gotm4]

Regarding the 5.56 chamber reamer and chrome lined barrels...

Aren't you cutting through the chrome?

Pete

Yes, but so does about 2-5K rounds. Chrome bumpers and chrome chambers aren't the same, your chamber doesn't suddenly start peeling chrome when its worn away or cut with the reamer.

[aloharover]

If 2-5k wears through the chrome then why even bother with it?
I wasn't picturing peeling, but increased erosion at the cut sight

[gotm4]

If 2-5k wears through the chrome then why even bother with it?
I wasn't picturing peeling, but increased erosion at the cut sight

Like I said it's really only need for problematic rifles. One's that pop primers into your lower or worse or ones with back extraction problems that can't be fixed otherwise. The reamer is on the large end of the NATO neck and throat.

And this is why Ned designed it:

From Neds web site http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php:

"What about chromed chambers? The good news is that in our experience, Colt AR15 chrome-lined barrels have a proper 5.56 chamber. I would consider any others to be suspect. The reamer has been subjected to a secondary heat-treating process, titanium carbo-nitride, which makes it capable of correcting under-spec chromed chambers. Obviously it will do fewer of them, and I can't say what the numbers would be as I have not had to ream that many chromed ones yet. Will removing the chrome be a problem? No. Plenty of AR's don't have chromed bores and chamber and they work fine. I've sectioned some chromed barrels and the chrome doesn't last long in the throat area anyway. Removing chrome in the chamber won't cause the area to peel like bumper chrome."

[aloharover]

From Neds web site http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php:

" I've sectioned some chromed barrels and the chrome doesn't last long in the throat area anyway. "

Interesting.
Thanks

Pete

[ReaperAZ]

Great thread. My AR is in no way going to be my "lifesaver", more or less she's a plinker with intentions of getting into 3 Gun type shooting. I bought all of the lower parts and assembled them and then purchased a complete upper. For sure this is my learning rifle. The plans to build a new "higher quality" one are already in the works.

[paulosantos]

To be honest, this thread is kind of confusing. One minute you guys are saying that just about every AR manufactor except Colt, FNH, and LMT suck ass. Now you are telling us that they don't really suck ass, especially if it is just a range toy. If you had just posted this pretty obvious information with your chart that you made up, then it would have made more sense. Now you just pointed what most guys already know and have been telling you all along.

I just can't wait for my piece of crap Bushmaster to crap out on me so I can buy a real one. The fucker has nearly 20,000 rounds and no problems yet.:rolleyes:

[gotm4]

To be honest, this thread is kind of confusing. One minute you guys are saying that just about every AR manufactor except Colt, FNH, and LMT suck ass. Now you are telling us that they don't really suck ass, especially if it is just a range toy. If you had just posted this pretty obvious information with your chart that you made up, then it would have made more sense. Now you just pointed what most guys already know and have been telling you all along.

I just can't wait for my piece of crap Bushmaster to crap out on me so I can buy a real one. The fucker has nearly 20,000 rounds and no problems yet.:rolleyes:

The info was put out there to show the differences between the brands. Many are sold a bill of goods (Oly/Bushmaster etc) and told that they're 'just as good' and believe me 'they ain't'. You need to look at your need and see if you need a top quality AR, if you don't then you can be served well by a lesser quality one. But don't for one minute think that a new 'Oly' is 'as good as a new Colt' quality wise.

Some people buy/build an AR and shoot 100 rounds per year, some like me shoot 10-15K+ rounds per year. Each of us will be best served by different qualities of ARs/parts (a person who owns an AR should know the difference).

If you're in the 100 rounds per year shooters don't go broke replacing parts that will serve you fine, just wait until it breaks and then replace the broken part with a known quality part.

If you're going to a training course then you really should upgrade to top quality parts and make sure it's properly assembled. You don't want to be 'that guy' holding up the class. Do the favor for your classmates, they've paid good hard earned money to be there and nothing more is annoying then being held up by 'that guy' who brings a crap gun that goes down constantly throughout the class. They're there to learn, not watch 'that guy' un-F*** his AR.

[KintlaLake]

To be honest, this thread is kind of confusing. One minute you guys are saying...

The purpose of this thread, I think, was to inspire exactly the opposite reaction (although it's pretty predictable that some could see it as snobbery, which it's not).

Quality, it seems to me, comprises performance, reliability, and durability -- all in the context of intended use.

Just divorce yourself from pride-in-purchase and look at quality -- in context.;) Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm goin' to Hineygate.:D

[QuickStrike]

I just bought a LWRC piston carbine and am currently in the process of personalizing it/bringing it to snuff.

Ordered a couple of those D-fender rings for the extractor. It came with an O-ring around the extractor spring and had an H2 Buffer, but the receiver extension doesn't look mil-spec. So I'm replacing that.

The carrier key is put on umm... differently.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w247/LWRC_Jesse/JesseBC.jpg

Should I still stake the screws?

Other upgrade ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks!

[paulosantos]

The purpose of this thread, I think, was to inspire exactly the opposite reaction (although it's pretty predictable that some could see it as snobbery, which it's not).

Quality, it seems to me, comprises performance, reliability, and durability -- all in the context of intended use.

Just divorce yourself from pride-in-purchase and look at quality -- in context.;) Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm goin' to Hineygate.:D

It is not the pride. I just use what I am issued and am just happy that I was at least issued something and am happy with it. I'd rather have a tier two AR then no AR at all. I shoot close to 200 rounds per week by the way, not 100 rounds per year.

This thread is actually good, but it should have been combined with the chart that was made. That is my point. At the bottom of the chart, Rob_s should have put what he wrote on this thread. Then it would have all made sense. By the way. I am just playing the devil's advocate, if you guys can't figure it out. I can tell what is good shit from bad and I can also tell good advice from bad and when someone gives confusing or contradictory advice. This thread is like someone telling guys that ony BMW's and Mercedez-Benz are the only good cars because they have all of these features and that everything else sucks. Then later on telling us that Honda's, Toyota's, Fords, etc, are ok for regular use and they shouldn't feel bad for having a Honda Accord. Get my point?

[rob_s]

Some people are so caught up in their emotional attachment to their choice in equipment that they can't see anything else, and even project intentions, motivations, and emotions onto other people that simply aren't there.

I originally made the chart for ME. It was an attempt for me to understand the differences between the brands and put them together in a format that I could look at in a glance. I posted it here originally asking the membership for HELP in getting the information as factually correct as I could. It has since taken on a life of it's own and is being re-posted all over the internet.

At the end of the day though the chart is simply a representation of FACT. I, with the help of the membership here, have gone out of my way to do my very best to ensure that it is factually accurate. So far at least 4 manufacturers have contacted me directly in one way or another to share their opinion of the chart and inform me of errors I may have made in the chart. But it's still a representation of FACT. Those that are prone to emotional outbursts regarding those facts are making their own inferences and assumptions about the intentions of the chart. I don't know why they do this, but I guess that they are not happy with the facts that they are confronted with.

THIS thread in actuality has little to do with the chart. It is simply a list of suggestions, again compiled from various sources more knowledgeable than me, on how to make simple upgrades to a M4 pattern carbine that may be lacking in some areas to make it potentially more durable and reliable. None of the suggestions in my post come from any great armorer's knowledge that I posses. They are a compilation of suggestions that I see made over and over again by people who know what they are talking about in answer to post after post after post from people who want to improve their carbine and have more peace of mind about it's reliability, but don't know where or how to search the site to find the answers.

This entire thing is a process. I'm sharing information with the masses as I get my brain wrapped around it and get it compiled into a presentable format so that maybe someone else can benefit from it. You knew all this all along? Yay for you. I didn't, and there are a whole lot of people (as evidenced by all the threads about it) that didn't either. Hopefully they can benefit from the information.

You may not like the facts that I present, you may not like the suggestions I compile, but I'm really just the messenger here. Make use of the facts in the chart when purchasing a new rifle or make use of the suggestions in this thread if you already own a rifle, or do neither. If you see factual errors in the chart post pictures as evidence of the error and I will change the chart, if you take issue with the suggestions made in this post and can back up your opinion I will change the post. Popping up to whine and cry "my xyz rifle has x-thousand perfect rounds through it" is entirely useless, misses the ENTIRE point of the chart and this thread, and really only serve to show the lack of understanding on the part of the poster.

For the hundredth time, and clearly not for the last, nobody is saying that every Colt, and only Colts, will run perfectly forever and that every xyz will fail. If that is your inference then you need to work on your reading comprehension.

[rob_s]

This thread is actually good, but it should have been combined with the chart that was made. That is my point. At the bottom of the chart, Rob_s should have put what he wrote on this thread. Then it would have all made sense.
I actually do post both together now when I post them elsewhere (as I did on lightfighter). I didn't know at the time I posted the chart that people would not understand the point of the chart and want to ditch the (possibly perfectly good) guns they already owned. This thread is a reaction to those people.

By the way. I am just playing the devil's advocate, if you guys can't figure it out. I can tell what is good shit from bad and I can also tell good advice from bad and when someone gives confusing or contradictory advice. This thread is like someone telling guys that ony BMW's and Mercedez-Benz are the only good cars because they have all of these features and that everything else sucks. Then later on telling us that Honda's, Toyota's, Fords, etc, are ok for regular use and they shouldn't feel bad for having a Honda Accord. Get my point?
What you, and others, keep missing is that nobody ever said this! This is your own inference when confronted with a collection of facts that you don't like. the contradiction only exists in your mind because you don't get it.

[gotm4]

I just bought a LWRC piston carbine and am currently in the process of personalizing it/bringing it to snuff.

Ordered a couple of those D-fender rings for the extractor. It came with an O-ring around the extractor spring and had an H2 Buffer, but the receiver extension doesn't look mil-spec. So I'm replacing that.

The carrier key is put on umm... differently.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w247/LWRC_Jesse/JesseBC.jpg

Should I still stake the screws?

Other upgrade ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks!

You can stake them (it's not needed) the key on that carrier fits into a sideways dovetail. I would just remove the screws and red loc-tite them torqued to 55in lbs and be done.

[paulosantos]

I actually do post both together now when I post them elsewhere (as I did on lightfighter). I didn't know at the time I posted the chart that people would not understand the point of the chart and want to ditch the (possibly perfectly good) guns they already owned. This thread is a reaction to those people.


What you, and others, keep missing is that nobody ever said this! This is your own inference when confronted with a collection of facts that you don't like. the contradiction only exists in your mind because you don't get it.

1. No dude. I do get it. You are the one that doesn't get it. You keep saying that I am emotionally attached to my AR and that is what is annoying. The only thing I am emotionally attached to is my wife and son. You know absolutely nothing about my personal AR or me, but you think you do. My AR is a mutt. I have put it together with what I think are the best parts I could find/afford. If you want, I can post exactly how my personal Ar is set up to see if it meets your approval.

2. An again, if someone goes to a class, they should take spare parts with him just in case something does break. Even if they have a Colt. They should also test out their AR prior to going to the class to make sure that it functions properly.

For me when I select an AR, I look for certain things that I consider must haves for me. M4 ramps, 16" midlength-chrome lined barrel with 1:7" twist. Everything else such as Mil-spec buffer tube, is nice, but not an absolute necessity.

[paulosantos]

I think that the problem here is that I just don't have the same way of thinking as some of the guys here. I think your chart is actually very good and informative. The problem is that some guys are made to think that because they don't have a tier 1 AR, that their AR is a piece of crap. I think that is wrong. I don't like telling someone that their AR is a piece of crap because it is a Tier 2 AR and they shouldn't take it to a class because they will hold up everyone else. Keep in mind that not everyone is blessed with money to spend on all the cool toys and most expensive ARs. I am blessed to have enough money that I can support my family and buy some of the best toys for my AR. I am also blessed to have a wife who understands and lets me go shooting once a week because she knows that the training may one day save my life at work.

I don't have a problem if someone takes their DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, etc, to a training class as long as they have tested it out before and it functioned properly and they have spare parts for it just in case something breaks. It is a TRAINING CLASS. Nothing is shooting back at you. You are there to learn. If you have malfunctions in a training class, you learn to fix the malfunctions. I don't look at it as holding up the class. I actually learn from experiences like that. If something breaks at a class you try to fix it and move on. At work we train for the worst case scenerio and that is why I have this mentality.

Rob_S: I applaud you for the chart that you did. It is very informative. I also applaud you for this thread. I agree with both. And since you said you combined both, then that is awsome.

The problem that I have is that I took your chart as only tier 1 AR's are worth a crap and that tier 2 AR's suck. When I saw THIS thread, it contradicted your original chart and the mentality of this place and I was wondering what had changed.

[C4IGrant]

I think that the problem here is that I just don't have the same way of thinking as some of the guys here. I think your chart is actually very good and informative. The problem is that some guys are made to think that because they don't have a tier 1 AR, that their AR is a piece of crap. I think that is wrong. I don't like telling someone that their AR is a piece of crap because it is a Tier 2 AR and they shouldn't take it to a class because they will hold up everyone else. Keep in mind that not everyone is blessed with money to spend on all the cool toys and most expensive ARs. I am blessed to have enough money that I can support my family and buy some of the best toys for my AR. I am also blessed to have a wife who understands and lets me go shooting once a week because she knows that the training may one day save my life at work.

I don't have a problem if someone takes their DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, etc, to a training class as long as they have tested it out before and it functioned properly and they have spare parts for it just in case something breaks. It is a TRAINING CLASS. Nothing is shooting back at you. You are there to learn. If you have malfunctions in a training class, you learn to fix the malfunctions. I don't look at it as holding up the class. I actually learn from experiences like that. If something breaks at a class you try to fix it and move on. At work we train for the worst case scenerio and that is why I have this mentality.

Rob_S: I applaud you for the chart that you did. It is very informative. I also applaud you for this thread. I agree with both. And since you said you combined both, then that is awsome.

The problem that I have is that I took your chart as only tier 1 AR's are worth a crap and that tier 2 AR's suck. When I saw THIS thread, it contradicted your original chart and the mentality of this place and I was wondering what had changed.


I would have to disagree with the statement that people are told that their weapon is crap. It is true that some brands are not very popular on here, but there is an honest reason for that.

I know that I tell people all the time that if they are just looking for a plinker, to just buy whatever they want as it really doesn't matter.

As far as training goes, you don't want to be "that guy." The definition of "that guy" is wide ranging. It basically boils down to the guy that slows down the entire class because he is occupying the instructors time with either his inability to follow instruction or his weapon won't function properly.

Both of the above two issues can be fixed by paying attention and not buying AR's that use only the cheapest parts and are improperly assembled.

For defense/training, buying a lessor quality AR really doesn't make much sense. So honestly, if you want a more dependable weapon, buy from the left side of the chart. It is that simple and what it really boils down to is how much is your life worth? Mine is worth a lot.

Can't afford a $1,300 Colt? Not a problem, buy a used one for a lot less coin.



C4

[paulosantos]

I would have to disagree with the statement that people are told that their weapon is crap. It is true that some brands are not very popular on here, but there is an honest reason for that.

I know that I tell people all the time that if they are just looking for a plinker, to just buy whatever they want as it really doesn't matter.

As far as training goes, you don't want to be "that guy." The definition of "that guy" is wide ranging. It basically boils down to the guy that slows down the entire class because he is occupying the instructors time with either his inability to follow instruction or his weapon won't function properly.

Both of the above two issues can be fixed by paying attention and not buying AR's that use only the cheapest parts and are improperly assembled.

For defense/training, buying a lessor quality AR really doesn't make much sense. So honestly, if you want a more dependable weapon, buy from the left side of the chart. It is that simple and what it really boils down to is how much is your life worth? Mine is worth a lot.

Can't afford a $1,300 Colt? Not a problem, buy a used one for a lot less coin.



C4

I guess we just have different ways of looking at things, especially when it comes to training. I would rather have someone with a Tier 2AR go to a class and learn how to use his AR properly then to have someone with a Tier 2 AR not go to a class because someone would make fun of him or get pissed because his AR malfunctioned. If he can't follow directions, that is one thing. If his AR malfunctions, you fix it and move on. Pull the guy off the range and fix the AR. That is whY I said that he should have tested his AR prior to going to the class and take spare parts. Basically you are saying that if a guy goes to a class with his Tier 1 and it malfunctions, it is OK because it is a Tier 1 and it rarely happens, but if a Tier 2 AR malfunctions in a class, then he is holding up the class and he shouldn't be there. Sorry, but I disagree. Shit happens, parts break. Who cares. Like I said before, I train for the worse case scenerio. I qualify 4 times a year at work with my carbine. We even have built-in transitions to the handgun in the qualification to train for the "o-shit" scenerio where the carbine malfunctioned or ran out of bullets.

[C4IGrant]

I guess we just have different ways of looking at things, especially when it comes to training. I would rather have someone with a Tier 2AR go to a class and learn how to use his AR properly then to have someone with a Tier 2 AR not go to a class because someone would make fun of him or get pissed because his AR malfunctioned. If he can't follow directions, that is one thing. If his AR malfunctions, you fix it and move on. Pull the guy off the range and fix the AR. That is whY I said that he should have tested his AR prior to going to the class and take spare parts. Basically you are saying that if a guy goes to a class with his Tier 1 and it malfunctions, it is OK because it is a Tier 1 and it rarely happens, but if a Tier 2 AR malfunctions in a class, then he is holding up the class and he shouldn't be there. Sorry, but I disagree. Shit happens, parts break. Who cares. Like I said before, I train for the worse case scenerio. I qualify 4 times a year at work with my carbine. We even have built-in transitions to the handgun in the qualification to train for the "o-shit" scenerio where the carbine malfunctioned or ran out of bullets.


Someone going to training is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what weapon they have. All AR's have malfunctions. What I am talking about is the guy that has many different issues through out the day (repeat offender). Yes training is a good place to find out what works and what doesn't, but I ask that people be considerate to the other shooters in the class (as they paid the same money as you did) and don't hold the class up with your crappy gun that won't run.

Following the 2 is 1 and 1 is none philosophy, people should always try and bring two weapons to a class. This allows you to keep up with the class if your weapon goes down. So it doesn't matter what "tier" the AR falls into. If the gun doesn't run, it doesn't run and you should grab your other AR or pull yourself off the line for an extended period.


C4

[Submariner]

"The Chart" is great for the economy. Manufacturer's, vendors and gun plumbers all benefit as buyers move to the left of The Chart in search of The Holy Grail of AR-15's. I note with interest an article by Pat Rogers in the most recent SWAT article, "Holy Grail of AR's" describing Sully's latest custom creation, the Grail. Publisher Rich Lubella is even on the cover with one of these carbines in Crye MultiCam (TM). "Our Publisher Can Kick Your Publisher's Butt" is the inscription.

Guys upgrade, selling their lower tier/farther-to-the-right-on-The-Chart gun. This creates a new potential buyer when he learns about The Chart. He upgrades, selling his lower tier/farther-to-the-right-on-The-Chart gun....

Brilliant marketing.:D

What we REALLY need, though, is cheap, reliable, MADE IN USA ammunition. Head Start has morphed to No Child Left Behind and we, the premier military power on the planet, can't make inexpensive, quality ammunition available to the populace.:confused:

[msr]

This chart along with the additional text will be quite useful if and when I do have a malfunction. I will use it as a check list to identify the problem. I appreciate the time put into it, thanks.

[paulosantos]

Someone going to training is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what weapon they have. All AR's have malfunctions. What I am talking about is the guy that has many different issues through out the day (repeat offender). Yes training is a good place to find out what works and what doesn't, but I ask that people be considerate to the other shooters in the class (as they paid the same money as you did) and don't hold the class up with your crappy gun that won't run.

Following the 2 is 1 and 1 is none philosophy, people should always try and bring two weapons to a class. This allows you to keep up with the class if your weapon goes down. So it doesn't matter what "tier" the AR falls into. If the gun doesn't run, it doesn't run and you should grab your other AR or pull yourself off the line for an extended period.


C4


I can't argue with you on what you wrote since I agree with it. My problem is with the whole mentality and teachings. If someone goes to a class with an an ARMS mount for his aimpoint and it breaks, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a Larue mount. I would say, "now you know why we use BUIS". If someone's bolt broke on his crappy AR, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a better bolt. I would have told him, "now what are you going to do?" Are you going to stand there and look at it or are you going to transition to your handgun and keep shooting.

[Submariner]

I can't argue with you on what you wrote since I agree with it. My problem is with the whole mentality and teachings. If someone goes to a class with an an ARMS mount for his aimpoint and it breaks, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a Larue mount. I would say, "now you know why we use BUIS". If someone's bolt broke on his crappy AR, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a better bolt. I would have told him, "now what are you going to do?" Are you going to stand there and look at it or are you going to transition to your handgun and keep shooting.

Actually, the instructor can (and probably should) do both: say, "What are you going to do now?" to solve the immediate problem and then, in the case of the broken mount, tell the shooter he can send the broken ARMS mount to mark LaRue and get a free LT replacement. The instructor might offer to lend/rent the shooter a back-up carbine so he can complete the training experience if the shooter failed to bring a spare bolt/bolt carrier group/carbine. Jes' my dos centavos.

[dubb-1]

Someone going to training is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what weapon they have. C4


Wrong. Someone that doesn't have the common sense to practice safe firearm handling techniques, or the decency and respect to invest in, at very least, a good BCG, and enough rounds to deem it "broken in", if not reliable, then he has no business on the firing line with me, or any of the people I train with. My Sheriff does not pay for my training, ammo, or lodging. Nor does he give me days off with pay.

If you want comraderie and research, play on the forums. If you want to train, invest like the rest of the professionals you'll be sharing time with. I want my instructors and their AIs to instruct, not put on their "armorer" hats. And that is what happens. When one man's rifle goes down, typically someone else has to stop what he's doing to help out. As such, when preparing for a class you do have a responsibility to the folks that you are sharing that time with.

[uranus]

Actually, I don't blame shooters for being upset when they realize that they purchased an inferior product.

I don't think that cost of the carbine is the primary issue because we see many shooters performing upgrades that can increase the cost substantially. Undoubtedly, the retail price of a new Colt is higher than average, but there are other excellent options, and an LMT upper and lower can be assembled for a lower price, or Grant, Paul, Steve or another shop can assemble a top-grade carbine at a very competitive price.

It appears, IMO, that the purchaser of a lesser quality carbine could be 1) concerned about the quality of their carbine; 2) pissed at their gunshop, friend, or gunrag who recommended the DPMS that they purchased; 3) pissed at the manufacturer for cutting corners on quality while spending big bucks on advertising merely to increase their bottom-line; and/or 4) disappointed that they do not own the best product that they could have owned at a comparable or reasonably-higher price because they were an under-educated consumer.

Seriously, how many pennies per carrier key could it cost to stake it properly? Notwithstanding, the selling price for a properly-staked carrier key isn't any higher than an inproperly-staked carrier key. Prior to joining this forum, I bought a CMT BCG with a carrier key that wasn't staked properly. Thank you Grant for correcting the problem.

However, this forum is an educational venue (with a good dose of humor thrown in), and I don't think that the posters/sponsors should be concerned about appearing as snobs or be concerned if forum members become aware that they could have made a better purchase. Unless the retail customer demands quality, there is little chance that retail manufacturers will improve their products. Additionally, anyone that seriously uses this forum wants the best information and the best product available, considering their budget, etc.

Great post, Rob!

[C4IGrant]

I can't argue with you on what you wrote since I agree with it. My problem is with the whole mentality and teachings. If someone goes to a class with an an ARMS mount for his aimpoint and it breaks, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a Larue mount. I would say, "now you know why we use BUIS". If someone's bolt broke on his crappy AR, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a better bolt. I would have told him, "now what are you going to do?" Are you going to stand there and look at it or are you going to transition to your handgun and keep shooting.


The job of gear correction falls unto the instructor (if they know anything) and not to any of the other students. If a piece of kit does go down, I do expect the instructor to examine it and maybe suggest a better alternative (whether it is a better weapon or better Aimpoint mount).

Both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers do a good job of discussing what they like and don't like based on their experience and what they see go down in classes. This is very good info that the students should be open too (even if they find out that what they own is junk).


C4

[C4IGrant]

Wrong. Someone that doesn't have the common sense to practice safe firearm handling techniques, or the decency and respect to invest in, at very least, a good BCG, and enough rounds to deem it "broken in", if not reliable, then he has no business on the firing line with me, or any of the people I train with. My Sheriff does not pay for my training, ammo, or lodging. Nor does he give me days off with pay.

If you want comraderie and research, play on the forums. If you want to train, invest like the rest of the professionals you'll be sharing time with. I want my instructors and their AIs to instruct, not put on their "armorer" hats. And that is what happens. When one man's rifle goes down, typically someone else has to stop what he's doing to help out. As such, when preparing for a class you do have a responsibility to the folks that you are sharing that time with.


I fully understand and have been on the line with people that don't belong there. While I don't like them sucking up my training time, I still want to them to learn what they don't know. I just wish they would have picked a lower speed course for them to learn what they don't know.

That someone that usually helps the guy with the broken weapon is me. ;)


C4

[paulosantos]

The job of gear correction falls unto the instructor (if they know anything) and not to any of the other students. If a piece of kit does go down, I do expect the instructor to examine it and maybe suggest a better alternative (whether it is a better weapon or better Aimpoint mount).

Both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers do a good job of discussing what they like and don't like based on their experience and what they see go down in classes. This is very good info that the students should be open too (even if they find out that what they own is junk).


C4

Grant, in a perfect world, you are correct, but not everyone lives there. I actually had a long detailed response, but it is pointless at this point because you are stuck in your ways and that is fine with me. I don't disagree with you, I am just a little more understanding and open minded. Your job is to build as perfect an AR as you can and you do a good job at it, but that means shit to me if I am issued a piece of junk and have no choice but to use it. My personal AR is 1,000,000 times better than my issued one. That is the real world.

Now back to the regularly scheduled chat.

[C4IGrant]

Grant, in a perfect world, you are correct, but not everyone lives there. I actually had a long detailed response, but it is pointless at this point because you are stuck in your ways and that is fine with me. I don't disagree with you, I am just a little more understanding and open minded. Your job is to build as perfect an AR as you can and you do a good job at it, but that means shit to me if I am issued a piece of junk and have no choice but to use it. My personal AR is 1,000,000 times better than my issued one. That is the real world.

Now back to the regularly scheduled chat.


I fully understand that people are issued and or given guns that are "ok" at best. When these people come to class (with their issued weapon) and it doesn't work, it isn't their fault and they tend to get viewed differently than the guy that had tons of choices (at least by me).



C4

[Heavy Metal]

But, but Rock River is MIL-Spec!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=342007

WARNING!: Do not have fluids in your mouth while you read that thread.

[C4IGrant]

But, but Rock River is MIL-Spec!

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=342007

WARNING!: Do not have fluids in your mouth while you read that thread.

Funny thread. My favorite argument is always the DEA one. The DEA spec'd the weapon out to their standards (which is apparently better than the TDP).

To anyone reading this post, if you are basing your weapon selection off of what some Govt Agency is running (and think it is a good idea), please log off and venture over the TOS or GlockTalk.



C4

[Heavy Metal]

You can stake them (it's not needed) the key on that carrier fits into a sideways dovetail. I would just remove the screws and red loc-tite them torqued to 55in lbs and be done.


LWRC already loc-tited them, nothing left to do.

[QuickStrike]

LWRC already loc-tited them, nothing left to do.

I think I will just put a mil-spec buffer tube on it (and stake); get some KNS non rotating pins, maybe removed some material from the upper rail handguard where the nozzle fits under, and be done with it.


I don't think the removing material from the handguard is required, but I've read that the nozzle part is designed to balloon during firing at retard speed.... some extra clearance won't hurt.

Does shooter's choice rust prevent work on aluminum and oxidation? :D

[KintlaLake]

This thread is like someone telling guys that ony BMW's and Mercedez-Benz are the only good cars because they have all of these features and that everything else sucks. Then later on telling us that Honda's, Toyota's, Fords, etc, are ok for regular use and they shouldn't feel bad for having a Honda Accord. Get my point?

I hear you, but we're looking at this thread (where it started, anyway) very differently.

I'm not an operator, an armorer, or an instructor. If there are weak points in my AR, whether it's chosen or issued, I want to know. If I can upgrade my AR and improve my skills, I want to know how. I'll decide how to spend my time and money, but I want the knowledge and I'll be grateful to the folks who share it.

[QuickStrike]

I hear you, but we're looking at this thread (where it started, anyway) very differently.

I'm not an operator, an armorer, or an instructor. If there are weak points in my AR, whether it's chosen or issued, I want to know. If I can upgrade my AR and improve my skills, I want to know how. I'll decide how to spend my time and money, but I want the knowledge and I'll be grateful to the folks who share it.

Yep.

The way I look at it... As long as your upper + lower are in spec they should be as good as anybody's upper/lower (function-wise). You can always upgrade and be pretty damn close to the top makers IMO, maybe even better depending on the parts.

So almost anyone can turn their pet carbine into something uber.

Some just costs more to do this than others... :D

[R Moran]

Theres alot of good info and points here, this thread and this site.

FWIW,
Rob I took both your chart and this thread how you intended.

The chart, can be used as a guide to make na informed choice as to which AR to purchase, and why some are more expensive then other's. Your not "paying for the name".

The way I look at it, is there is a difference between a "better gun" and a "better choice". To argue that the BM/OLY/etc etc is just as good as, in the face of the "facts" as Rob pointed out, is rediculous. To argu, that you don't need the better gun, therefore the lower cost gun, is a better choice, is far more logical.

This thread was inteneded to help those who, for whatever reason, have a sub standard gun. A friend of mine, is in that boat, and just this morning was asking about upgrades. I told him to check out this site. He's more into old relics and products of Soviet slave labor:D

Paul, I'm confused, are you talking about two different AR's, an issued one, and apersonal one? Tha you have BM that went 20K is great. I've seen BM issued at aFederal facility not get thru 3 round zero exercises. Rather then go on about all the failures I've seen, or been reported to me out side the internet, by reputable individual, I'll say this...

My personal Colt had some problems, my issued BM ran fine. Do you think I should ignore the advise of all teh informed individuals on this site, includes PR and LAV, based on those two guns? Or should I look at my issued Colt, all the issued Colts I've had in the past, all the other issued and individually owned Colts I've observed, the various BM that I've seen go TU, the observations of LE's, various armorers, instructors, etc etc.

No one said every Colt was omnipotent, and every Bm was a POS, just that based on observations, and admidatedly annecdotal evidence, you have a better chance of getting a good one with Colt/LMT etc.

As far as training, and "that guy". I'm kinda with Dubb, I spend my own money and vacation training, and when some guys home built just as good as, goes TU every drill, and the class has to wait as he clears it, to move on, it gets old.

Much like the manufacturer arguments, everybody has a malfunction, if you haven't your not shooting it enough, its the number's or percentages that gets you.

And, yes you should have vetted the gun prior, and brought spares etc. Even so, it holds the class up.

Every instructor I've trained with, has first and formost, shown the individual how to get back/stay in the fight. Only then do they explain the importance of quality gear.

Bob

[D-gin]

Thanks rob.

This is why I come to this forum, Again you folks have made a somewhat technical discussion simple and easy for a guy like myself to understand.


;)

[BushmasterFanBoy]

Thank you Rob, its nice to see someone do more than criticize BM/ throw poo at Colt. Hopefully, everyone who reads that will take at least one of those steps to improve thier rifle. I'm a "fix it as it breaks" kinda person, and by now, through a good deal of learning on this site, as well as a few (under 5, total) unexplained jams at the range, I've now fixed everything you recommend except getting an MPI BCG. I'm not fully ready to throw that much more money at my BM, and I think its good-to-go as is, but time will tell.

[C4IGrant]

Thank you Rob, its nice to see someone do more than criticize BM/ throw poo at Colt. Hopefully, everyone who reads that will take at least one of those steps to improve thier rifle. I'm a "fix it as it breaks" kinda person, and by now, through a good deal of learning on this site, as well as a few (under 5, total) unexplained jams at the range, I've now fixed everything you recommend except getting an MPI BCG. I'm not fully ready to throw that much more money at my BM, and I think its good-to-go as is, but time will tell.


Rob is good at these threads because he has walked down both sides of the street.


C4

[gotm4]

LWRC already loc-tited them, nothing left to do.

Any idea if they're torqued and/or how high tight?

[Heavy Metal]

You will have to ask that over at the LWRC site forum.

Darren stated they are torqued and loc-tited.

Considering they are tightly dovetailed and not subject to heat, I suspet they should hold up. They appear to be far less stressed.

I do know the key is made of some unobatinium steel that is supposed to be hella tough.

[sproc]

Dork Lord, do not stake your LWRC key screws. Go to their website and read why they don't need to be staked and why try to do it anyway is a bad idea. Or just give them a call if you can't find the info you need on their forums.

[Heavy Metal]

It would be damn hard to stake them, they are far, far, far harder than a standard key.

They work fine as they are.

[Shihan]

Actually, the instructor can (and probably should) do both: in the case of the broken mount, tell the shooter he can send the broken ARMS mount to mark LaRue and get a free LT replacement. .

Free Larue replacement for a broken ARMS mount?

[QuickStrike]

Dork Lord, do not stake your LWRC key screws. Go to their website and read why they don't need to be staked and why try to do it anyway is a bad idea. Or just give them a call if you can't find the info you need on their forums.

Okay I won't stake the gas key.

Thanks for the warning! I was getting my punch and hammer! :o

Besides the buffer tube, do you think I should upgrade anything else on it? Mine is the 16" SOC model in 5.56.

Thanks!

Edit: Maybe I don't have to change out the buffer tube, I emailed Darren for info about this.

[gotm4]

Okay I won't stake the gas key.

Thanks for the warning! I was getting my punch and hammer! :o

Besides the buffer tube, do you think I should upgrade anything else on it? Mine is the 16" SOC model in 5.56.

Thanks!

Edit: Maybe I don't have to change out the buffer tube, I emailed Darren for info about this.

The few LWRC rifles I've seen had mil-spec receiver extensions (I don't know what brand) with Magpul CTR stocks on them w/H2 buffers. I don't remember seeing staking between the end plate and castle nut.

[QuickStrike]

The few LWRC rifles I've seen had mil-spec receiver extensions (I don't know what brand) with Magpul CTR stocks on them w/H2 buffers. I don't remember seeing staking between the end plate and castle nut.

Yea, I just did a quick measure of my stag's buffer tube and the LWRC's. Both seem to be at about 26.5 milimeters (I suck at math so I'll use milimeters instead of inches...) and I know the Stag's tube is mil-spec.

Looks like I'll only have to stake the end plate then. :cool:

Edit: damnit I ordered a BCM m4 stock last night for nothing!

[PhotomanM4]

I think perusing this forum should be required reading before making any AR purchase. :)


Yes indeed. I'm glad I did!

I haven't purchased yet. Was going to buy a S&W M&P15A (I am a long time S&W fan) so I wouldn't have been that bad off but it's good to know the real deal before dropping $1000 or more on a rifle.

The conclusion so far, as far as box rifles go, is:

Colt 6920 or S&W M&P15A. (Are complete LMT rifles available anywhere?) I just have to decide how much money I want to spend.

I certainly do appreciate all the civil exchange of quality information here and "the chart" has been a real help!

[gotm4]

The conclusion so far, as far as box rifles go, is:

Colt 6920 or S&W M&P15A. (Are complete LMT rifles available anywhere?) I just have to decide how much money I want to spend.

I certainly do appreciate all the civil exchange of quality information here and "the chart" has been a real help!

LMT has just recently started having complete rifles available to the non-LE, non-military market.

[C4IGrant]

Yes indeed. I'm glad I did!

I haven't purchased yet. Was going to buy a S&W M&P15A (I am a long time S&W fan) so I wouldn't have been that bad off but it's good to know the real deal before dropping $1000 or more on a rifle.

The conclusion so far, as far as box rifles go, is:

Colt 6920 or S&W M&P15A. (Are complete LMT rifles available anywhere?) I just have to decide how much money I want to spend.

I certainly do appreciate all the civil exchange of quality information here and "the chart" has been a real help!

We have the LMT complete AR's in stock if interested.


C4

[PhotomanM4]

We have the LMT complete AR's in stock if interested.


C4



Thanks Grant. I'm just about 99% sold on getting the Colt 6920. When I get money in hand, I'll contact you.

[Lonestar.45]

I bought a Bushmaster Superlight first. So far so good. But I'm looking at an LMT upper for my newly purchased Stag lower, after hanging out around here.

I will say one thing though, if you ever have to sell it, no one locally knows what the hell an LMT is, and the Bushmaster would be much easier to unload. So all those unhappy with their Bushmasters should be able to get rid of them fairly easy.

[docmcb]

When I got interested in buying an AR15/M4gery, I registered on forums like this and lurked for a long time reading and absorbing lots of info. This site has been a great place to learn, and I came to appreciate the variety of people participating, the variety of gear available, and the variety of emotions and opinions related to such.

As I look back I can see a pattern in my personal hobbies. Whether it be computers, classic muscle cars, digital photography, or construction/remodeling tools, I have often entered a hobby with starter grade hardware and as I become more immersed in it, I gradually upgrade and increase my investment in the sport or hobby. The enjoyment lies not in owning the ultimate hardware or gear at the end of the line, but rather in the journey.

I started with a stripped lower receiver and a kit. Total starting investment was $5-600. I enjoyed building it myself and I learned a lot doing it. Based on what I learned here, I was able to reinstall the barrel (after purchasing appropriate tools) to correct a canted FSB, properly staked my gas keys, staked my collapseable stock tube castle nut, upgraded my extractor spring and added the O-ring, and upgraded my trigger to a Timney unit with a 3lb pull. I've shot over 3k rounds through it and I am having a blast.

I know its not a Colt or LMT, or "tier one" and I'm not upset about it. Perhaps thats because I am in this as a hobby, I admit I'm not an LEO and my days of kicking in doors and searching Iraqi homes are over. I understand if you are .mil or a private contractor in Iraq you live and die by the performance of your weapon and more power to you and your high speed / low drag gear.

I guess it has to do with your expectations also. If you are not mechanically inclined, don't like to tinker, and someone sold you a line of BS about the quality or performance of a particular name brand, maybe you regret your purchase after reading and learning here. Live and learn, but ranting about how your model/brand is the best won't change anything and you're just hoping for others to drink the same kool-aid you did to make you feel better. It reminds me when I was younger and in the hotrod/custom car scene and I thought Chevy's were the shit and Dodge and Fords sucked. As I matured I came to appreciate Chargers, Cuda's, Mustangs, and Torinos as well. Or when I used to think only Dewalt made quality power tools, now I appreciate Milwaukee, Bosch, and others. I'll stop rambling now.

Bottom line; I love this site and the knowledge I've absorbed here has helped me build a reliable weapon that I love to shoot, and I'd rather have 2 like it than 1 that cost twice as much out of the box.

BTW, when are the M4C ballcaps going to be available?

[120mm]

Good post. I'd have to say that lower quality ARs serve a purpose, and that is to get people "into the game". If someone doesn't shoot them, much, they're probably going to be happy with their "plinker". If they do, they'll probably start figuring out for themselves whether they want higher quality or not.

This forum is a great place to learn about what makes a high quality AR and why.

[Bob Reed]

Hello,

While I can certainly relate to being on a budget and having to save a bit longer for quality, I flat can't understand the ones that let just a coupla hundred bucks stand in their way when it comes to owning Top Quality Weapons vs. the so called "just as good as" ones. Especially when one considers what the current "just as good as" brands are going for (in my area at least) when compared to say a Colt for just a few dollars more.

I've also been at a loss when trying to understand the ones that will spend all most as much for a "it's just a range gun or a plinker". What weapon will this group have at hand when things start going to hell real quick? They'll reach for their "it's just plinker". No Thanks, the kill zone is a very unforgiving place, and I only want weapons that will do their part as long as I do mine.

The next time those of us on tight budgets are looking at one of the "just as good as" brands, slow down and closely examine the small parts, what BCG is in this weapon, is the extension a quality hammer forged unit, consider what steel the barrel is made of, does it have a 1:7 twist? Ect. Ect.. It's all in the details. Then ask your self, am I gonna be totally content with this purchase, or is the details gonna drive me nuts? Should I save just a little bit longer before buying? Can I up-grade this weapon after buying it and still save a bunch of money, or will I have the cost of a Top Quality weapon in it by then?

Note: I'm not bashing anyone or their weapons, and I'm not saying that some of the lessor expensive weapons aren't worth owning. I'm only trying to give the new-comers somethings to think about before laying down their hard earned cash.

Take Care.

[PhotomanM4]

Hello,

While I can certainly relate to being on a budget and having to save a bit longer for quality, I flat can't understand the ones that let just a coupla hundred bucks stand in their way when it comes to owning Top Quality Weapons vs. the so called "just as good as" ones.



That's certainly the conclusion I'm coming to Bob. Why buy a $900 S&W when I can get a $975 Colt 6520?

[toddackerman]

That's certainly the conclusion I'm coming to Bob. Why buy a $900 S&W when I can get a $975 Colt 6520?

....or an LMT?:)

Tack

[KDG]

Hello,

While I can certainly relate to being on a budget and having to save a bit longer for quality, I flat can't understand the ones that let just a coupla hundred bucks stand in their way when it comes to owning Top Quality Weapons vs. the so called "just as good as" ones. Especially when one considers what the current "just as good as" brands are going for (in my area at least) when compared to say a Colt for just a few dollars more.



That's a great point.

That is what is unique in the AR world. The difference between a high quality great weapon and a standard or sub standard weapon is such a little difference in money.

More so then being on a budget, it is a lack of knowledge, as was my case.
And I think thats why some get so upset over it, they have already spent 80 or 90% of what it would have taken to get the best. THEN you learn about it and it makes you want to kick yourself in the ass when you realize it or rationalize like hell to justify the decision.

And it does suck to hear that you spent nearly a thousand dollars on something recognized by people in the know as being junk.....

Usually there is a huge difference in money between top of the line vs standard and it is easy to justify not spending 100's of % more for something. But in this case it is small.

[mmike87]

And it does suck to hear that you spent nearly a thousand dollars on something recognized by people in the know as being junk.....

But at least most of the items can be upgraded or fixed. Not the same, but at least enough to keep you from having to trash the rifle.

[Charlie Hotel]

Hello from Va. Just wanted to introduce myself and comment and thank the author for this thread.

Just after Christmas this year I purchased a DPMS AP4. Let me explain......

I have had handguns for years and hunted in Va with shottys and some bolt guns. I have always wanted an M4 and decided to buy before our new soon to be Democratic government enacts HR 1022.
When looking for a new product, most people will generally search the net, buy publications or ask via word of mouth. The problem with searching the net is that MOST people will simply Google a well known brand and you end up at some manufacturers web site (Pioneer, Honda, Bushmaster for example) and not at a FORUM like this one where you can learn about properly staked gas keys/castle nuts/feed ramps/blue vs. black extractors etc... It never occured to me to go to a M4 forum to get info before I purchased. And the magazines we all like to read such as "Special Weapons", "Tactical Weapons", "Guns & Weapons" and "SWAT" have reviewed DPMS guns hand over fist and of course not a bad review in any of the articles (sponsorshop maybe? dunno).

So there it was, decision made. All the rags were fine with them and the police Dpt. down the street had a few. One of the local gun shops just 10 minutes from where I live just happened to stock shiny new DPMS guns (albeit literally dripping with gun oil) along with several $200 Chinese SKS's, lucky me.

Well, I lurked on this site for a while and it became readily apparent the members here are obviously biased, well educated, highly opinionated and fond of bashing. Just bashing away at brands where the only seemingly fault with the gun was......staking. I tried to search but couldnt find any proof of major malfunctions with any one particular brand vs. another.......just conjecture and opinion backed by nothing but pictures of improperly staked gas keys. I get it. So, I came to the conclusion to replace my BCG with one from the fine folks at Bravo Company and use my DPMS as a spare. It appeared that 90% of the possible problems with the lower tiered guns lie in the inferior BCG anyway? I believe this is what Rob is sorta eluding to........with a few tweaks and parts R&R I may have a gun that is worth keeping.

So now i'm stuck with a DPMS gun with a properly staked castle nut, a Bravo Co. BCG and lubed with TW-25B thanks to the advice on this forum.......And perfectly happy with this rifle with no intentions to get rid of it. Maybe when funds permit I will go north to that fellas' store in Manassas to look over some LMT ot Colt's. But since I just purchased my used Springfield SAR8 a few weeks ago (complete with a set of black furniture parts, spent shell casing marks :( ) a new M4 will have to wait.

Regardless, I found Black Rifle Disease has a cure and it's called married with Children.

Thanks again. C.H.

[UVvis]

CH,

I fully see what you are getting at. I wouldn't call it bashing as much as I would call it disappoint and annoyance. It is easy to be disappointed by getting a troublesome gun, and even more so if you find that it isn't higher up on the totem pole of quality. If this happens to you, then you might run into some serious annoyance, because you thought all these guns were the same.

It isn't so much that it is bashing, it is more that many folk here do not see the value, or point, based on experience, on buying a lesser quality gun. There is great value in buying a gun that you know comes with high quality tested parts, that you know is very likely to run out of the box, and run and run.

You mentioned staking as an issue. I agree to a point that it is one little thing, and it can be easily fixed. From there you have probably seen the, "If they aren't doing that right, what else aren't they doing correctly" deal. Yeah, this can seem a bit judgmental and shortsighted. But there are some people here who every day go to work knowing that things can get ugly, and they might not be coming home. For those people, they aren't asking a rhetorical question, they are asking a heavy, real world, life and death question. A single malfunction could cost someone their life.

So yeah, there is some bias towards high quality gear, and for a very good reason.

So, it isn't so much that Brand X or Y guns are all garbage. Some might be on par and run as hard as or better the guns from better parts, though this isn't likely. It is when these companies do well and sell guns based on ignorance of their customers that many have a hard time with. Especially when these customers are SWAT teams or police departments that get a pile of guns that don't work that well. I guess I would have a time personally selling a sub par product to someone who needs a top quality gun. So for some, it just isn't worth the chance or the time to deal with sub par guns.

[Charlie Hotel]

Thanks for the reply UVvis............

Exactly what you said was basically what i was getting at. For a new M4 buyer, your gonna get hosed trying to research the guns because unless you know someone "in the know", youre going to get directed to the usual big name stuff. If I sold the gun, I didnt want to sell it to someone I know if additional problems were going to come up with the gun, but so far it runs fine, shoots about 3" at 200yards (I think thats my problem and using 77grain stuff in a 1/9 barrell). Thanks again.

p.s. I was looking at a 6.8 upper from Ko-tonics? Stay away or OK?

[toddackerman]

Thanks for the reply UVvis............

Exactly what you said was basically what i was getting at. For a new M4 buyer, your gonna get hosed trying to research the guns because unless you know someone "in the know", youre going to get directed to the usual big name stuff. If I sold the gun, I didnt want to sell it to someone I know if additional problems were going to come up with the gun, but so far it runs fine, shoots about 3" at 200yards (I think thats my problem and using 77grain stuff in a 1/9 barrell). Thanks again.

p.s. I was looking at a 6.8 upper from Ko-tonics? Stay away or OK?

Charlie,

IMHO....3" groups at 200 isn't bad, especially if the optic is less than 9X. That's 1.5 MOA. As I've always said, you have to be able to SEE 1MOA on the target to put the rounds in 1 MOA group. I have a lot of Benchrest history, and this has been my experience.

To shoot .5 MOA groups, guys would typically use optics with 32X power, and these were on "Highly Modified" Bench Rest, Single Shot Bolt Guns. An AR platform is much less stable.

Good luck on your 6.8 upper. Personally I'd take a look at LMT. I've never heard of Ko-Tonics. Just my $.02 worth.

Tack

[AR15barrels]

To shoot .5 MOA groups, guys would typically use optics with 32X power, and these were on "Highly Modified" Bench Rest, Single Shot Bolt Guns. An AR platform is much less stable.

I shoot 1/2 MOA groups with my lightly modified (bolt knob and trigger) remington 700 (stock barrel) and a 10x scope.

Perhaps you need more help. ;)

I have also shot some 3/8" groups at 100m with AR's using about 12x magnification.

[paulosantos]

p.s. I was looking at a 6.8 upper from Ko-tonics? Stay away or OK?

Ko-Tonics is currently one of the best barrels/uppers for the 6.8SPC. I don't know if they would be considered in the Tier1 list :rolleyes:, but they are definitely in the Tier 2 list. I can easily get close to 1/2 MOA with some of my best handloads. Stop at www.68forums.com (http://www.68forums.com) and you can see some recipes and accuracy results.

[toddackerman]

I shoot 1/2 MOA groups with my lightly modified (bolt knob and trigger) remington 700 (stock barrel) and a 10x scope.

Perhaps you need more help. ;)

I have also shot some 3/8" groups at 100m with AR's using about 12x magnification.

I always need More Help!!!

I think you're 3/8th" group is outstanding with an AR and 12X. I just can't see that closely anymore without at least 16X.

My personal best is .337" (holes measured center to center) with a Remington VS, Timney trigger and a 14X scope. This was in 1998, and I still have the target. The 32X scopes I was referring to were being used by guys who could "Regularly shoot" 5 shots under .2 MOA with Custom BR Guns, usually in 6 PPC caliber. And yes that means 5 shots in ~2/10ths of an inch at 100 yds. The world record is under .1 MOA.

Tack

[scottp999]

Great work!

[m700m]

i prefer Colt, "6920" yet ''ms'' Santa left a Bushmaster CAR copy under the tree this year, and after looking it over during the initial cleaning for a trip to the range, i was mildly surprised to see matching receivers, chrome throughout, and a properly staked carrier key . so, could be they are listening, and should know by now that AR buyers are tiering of shoddy work.(or just an ''anomaly'')? D..........

[rmecapn]

5) Buy a properly tested, staked, constructed bolt carrier group (BCG) with the proper extractor insert. The bolt itself should be Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_particle_inspection), Shot Peened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_peening), and Proof Fired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test). You can buy a top quality BCG from Bravo Company (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm), G&R Tactical (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=BCG-FN&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dgroup%20bolt%20carrier%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html) or LMT (http://www.lewismachine.net) for around $130. You can either change out to this BCG right away, or use the one that came with your rifle until it breaks and then switch it out. The choice is yours.


Just curious, how does one tell if their bolt has been MPI'd?

[carbinero]

If you already have a fairly new, chrome-lined, well staked CMT or "less than top tier" carrier, why not just get a $60 bolt from BCM and save $70? Are the BCM carriers that much better?

[gotm4]

Just curious, how does one tell if their bolt has been MPI'd?

Typically their engraved or stamped with MP.

[C4IGrant]

Just curious, how does one tell if their bolt has been MPI'd?



Some companies like BCM, Colt and LMT mark them. Other companies like Sabre Defense and Stag (CMT) do MP test, but do not mark them.


C4

[C4IGrant]

If you already have a fairly new, chrome-lined, well staked CMT or "less than top tier" carrier, why not just get a $60 bolt from BCM and save $70? Are the BCM carriers that much better?

The gas keys on the BCM's are better. Since you already have a bolt carrier, I wouldn't worry about it.


C4

[rmecapn]

Some companies like BCM, Colt and LMT mark them. Other companies like Sabre Defense and Stag (CMT) do MP test, but do not mark them.



Apparently, CMT only batch tests. This is the reply I received from them concerning the marking of their MP tested bolts:

"MPI is done on sample lots only, if there is no marking on it to indicate that the testing was done than it was probably not done on your piece. We have had no problem reports with regard to cracks, and so same lot testing continues."

[Shihan]

I always need More Help!!!

I think you're 3/8th" group is outstanding with an AR and 12X. I just can't see that closely anymore without at least 16X.

My personal best is .337" (holes measured center to center) with a Remington VS, Timney trigger and a 14X scope. This was in 1998, and I still have the target. The 32X scopes I was referring to were being used by guys who could "Regularly shoot" 5 shots under .2 MOA with Custom BR Guns, usually in 6 PPC caliber. And yes that means 5 shots in ~2/10ths of an inch at 100 yds. The world record is under .1 MOA.

Tack

I find that being overpowered with the optic screws up my groups.

[C4IGrant]

Apparently, CMT only batch tests. This is the reply I received from them concerning the marking of their MP tested bolts:

"MPI is done on sample lots only, if there is no marking on it to indicate that the testing was done than it was probably not done on your piece. We have had no problem reports with regard to cracks, and so same lot testing continues."


Hmm, that is odd as just last year, they said that they were MP testing all of them.

C4

[rmecapn]

Hmm, that is odd as just last year, they said that they were MP testing all of them.

C4

I don't know, Grant. This is the question I posed to them in my email:
"I was wondering if you could tell me if you magnetic particle test your AR-15 bolts? If so, do you mark those bolts as being MP tested in any way?"

And the reply above is what was returned. It is my understanding that batch testing is sufficient to meet the requirements of the TDP. However, if they told you they were testing each individual bolt, then I'd say you were definitely mislead (intentionally or not). Is this similar to the issue that S&W had with them?

[carbinero]

I just received a back-up bolt from BCM. I'm not messing around with "I thought" on this part; the original will ride the bench.

Note: received by US Mail in a beat up express box with a split large enough for a bolt to squeeze through. Bolt in sealed heavy duty clear plastic bag: not the worse for wear. Bolt assumed 100% GTG.

[C4IGrant]

I don't know, Grant. This is the question I posed to them in my email:
"I was wondering if you could tell me if you magnetic particle test your AR-15 bolts? If so, do you mark those bolts as being MP tested in any way?"

And the reply above is what was returned. It is my understanding that batch testing is sufficient to meet the requirements of the TDP. However, if they told you they were testing each individual bolt, then I'd say you were definitely mislead (intentionally or not). Is this similar to the issue that S&W had with them?

I do believe batch testing is just fine and I personally use a batch tested bolt in my OTD gun.

I have not purchased any new bolts from CMT for over a year so the bolt you have is most likely MP tested as at that time, everything was MP'd.


C4

[Safetyhit]

I just received a back-up bolt from BCM. I'm not messing around with "I thought" on this part; the original will ride the bench.

Note: received by US Mail in a beat up express box with a split large enough for a bolt to squeeze through. Bolt in sealed heavy duty clear plastic bag: not the worse for wear. Bolt assumed 100% GTG.



I have always had good experiences when contacting Bushmaster for parts and information. No returns, no issues.


This is a great thread by the way, Rob. :cool:

[wicked_police]

We have Colt's, Demaico's, and now Colt Canada guns at work.

I have a Colt 6920, Stag N8CQB, and an RRA 9mm at home.

I'm very happy with my Stag for a personal rifle, so much so that I'm going to sell the 6920 to fund other projects.

[ksa464]

ATTENTION ROB!!!

I have to say that I love this post. I have a Colt M-16 A2 sporter (I have had for 18 years) and came across a good deal on a BM 14.5 M-4 Izzy. I shot the BM the first time out in Febuary to sight and function check......14 full 30 round mags (420 rounds) and 4 different brands of 55 gr. ammo. About 200 or so into the maiden run of this fun rifle, I had a double feed; an empty case with a live one wanting to come up the ramp. This was a fresh Remington green box round. (as opposed to Wolf which BTW functioned 100% thru 90 rounds).

Stunned, I said "I'm going to do a few Rob upgrades". My 2 brother-in-laws that were with me, 1 an absolute gun nut and the other a 12 year Army vet and very familuar with the M-16 both said "What! It's one failure in a break-in, its fine. Its probably just a bad round or magazine" I said "no way". "I will give this one more shake upon my next visit to the range, but if it fails then, I'm selling it". I own 2 GLOCKS that are 100% after a collective 4500 rounds, so I compare everything to GLOCK now. Anyway, I marked the supect mag with a marker and set it aside to try again next time.

Anyway, other than that we got it battle sighted (running stock iron sights) and produced a wonderful 3" round hole in the middle of the paper after it was all said and done. But I noticed that the next day my shoulder also had a bruise on it. Mind you, I probably only shot 200-250 rounds myself because my brother-in-laws were also shooting it and helping me sight it.

So off to the "Rob list" I went: H buffer and a crane black insert and O-ring from Bravo Company.....tossed in a few more mags and Gen II Magpul followers too :) (I think those green ones suck -they tilt too much for me)Installed the new buffer and upgraded extractor.

Fast foward to last month, my 2nd visit to the range with this rifle.... 15 full mags, 450 rounds now, 3 different 55 gr ammo; once re-loaded Lake City from a gun show, Tiawan PMC and another 90 rounds (3 full mags) of steel Wolf that all AR guys seem to hate. (Again, I'm a GLOCK guy, I feel that that firearm should eat everything). My point is, this is less than desirable ammo.

I'm by my self this time, so I will have to take all 450 rounds into my shoulder. How will I and the rifle fair this time? Remember, I will sell this POS if it fails again and I need to eleminate a possible bad magazine.

RESULT: AMAZING! 100% reliability, noticably less recoil and a nice tight pile of brass and steel about 8 feet from my 4 o'clock! The suspect mag which I intentionally loaded with the Wolf crap; 100%. The next day I did not feel a thing in my shoulder and NOT PHYSICAL SIGN on my body, i.e. bruise.

I attribute the wonderful function to the upgraded extractor (which I feel was the cause of the original double feed) and the H buffer (which I attribute to a comfortable shooting sesion - and maybe a slower bolt action) to a happy and trust-worthy rifle.

Thanks Rob! Its amazing what a $25 buffer and $3 extractor upgrade can do. ;)

[ARin]

grant just posted a topic on how to square away a bushmaster rifle. it more or less applies across the board to the STAG line of AR's also.

check it out.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532

[5spdfrk]

Very informative post for an EBR noob such as myself.:cool: