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View Full Version : What's your favorite BU rear sight?



Doc Glockster
02-23-11, 09:29
I just bought a Mid 16 Model Zero Bravo Company mid-length, and now I'm scratching my head as to what rear sight to put on it. I ended up ordering the Daniel Defense A1.5 rear sight, but I looked hard at the LaRue QD unit as well.

I read some threads on the subject, and I'm thinking a lot of it is personal preference.

What BU rear sight do you guys favor, and why?

ASH556
02-23-11, 09:38
I recently posted a poll on BUIS and got a lot of good responses. I ended up going with the KAC Micro's, with 600M rear. I like this sight because I shoot pretty close to NTCH and a smaller aperature works well for me. It is pretty much the lowest profile (height and width) sight you can get if you're going to run optics. I also really like the fact that I can adjust my rear for POA/POI out to 600M. I don't know if/when I'll ever need to, but I like having the option. It's a solid piece of gear, and you get to say, "I own KAC stuff!"

Doc Glockster
02-23-11, 09:41
I recently posted a poll on BUIS and got a lot of good responses. I ended up going with the KAC Micro's, with 600M rear. I like this sight because I shoot pretty close to NTCH and a smaller aperature works well for me. It is pretty much the lowest profile (height and width) sight you can get if you're going to run optics. I also really like the fact that I can adjust my rear for POA/POI out to 600M. I don't know if/when I'll ever need to, but I like having the option. It's a solid piece of gear, and you get to say, "I own KAC stuff!"

What's the link to your poll? I must have missed it when I did my search.

Is it your "MBUS vs. Troy" thread?

RustedAce
02-23-11, 09:59
KAC 600m micro.

ASH556
02-23-11, 09:59
What's the link to your poll? I must have missed it when I did my search.

Is it your "MBUS vs. Troy" thread?

That's the one. Kind of odd that I ended up picking neither of those two options, but that's the beauty of this site and the info here. Several folks in that thread recommended the KAC as a best option. I looked at some in-person and decided they were right.

ETA: Link to thread http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=919116#post919116

pacrimguru
02-23-11, 10:27
KAC Micro 200-600M

aflin
02-23-11, 11:57
DD fixed rear

obucina
02-23-11, 12:28
while I am still new to the AR platform, I picked up a Matech sight from a forum member. It has a smaller aperture opening and seems to help me focus on the front post and is low profile enough not to bang my knuckles when manipulating the charging handle..as I am left handed.

capt planit
02-23-11, 13:28
I like the troy sights

DialTone301
02-23-11, 13:34
I like the Troy's also.

Evil Bert
02-23-11, 13:37
I have tried a lot of them, MBUS, Troy, MI, Matech, and KAC.

My favorite is the KAC micro 600m

11B101ABN
02-23-11, 13:40
I only have fixed rears, but DD and LaRue are top of the heap IMO.

Surf
02-23-11, 14:21
A chopped carry handle.

Schadenfreude
02-23-11, 14:40
GG&G MAD works good for me also have the ranging version but haven't used it enough to say yay or nay

Rattlehead
02-23-11, 14:44
KAC 600M.

Pax
02-23-11, 14:53
Running Troys currently. Favorite rear BUIS has to be Hahn Precision's though. A friend has one and it's just rock solid and stupid simple. Also allows a little more access to the charging handle than the Troys, which I appreciate. And I'm not accurate enough to shoot out to 600m anyways, so I doubt I'd make use of that type of adjustment.

JSGlock34
02-23-11, 16:32
I've run Troy, KAC, LMT and Magpul. In a lot of ways, Troy has emerged as the industry standard (OEM to Noveske, LaRue, BCM, Smith & Wesson, Spike's, etc). I like the Troys a lot. However, I think the KAC 200-600M is my favorite, whether in the original or Micro variety.

dwhitehorne
02-23-11, 18:18
I like the GG&G MAD. It is nice and flat and comes up with the small appature which I use most of the time. David

kwelz
02-23-11, 18:21
Fixed I like the DD A1.5
Folding I prefer the tried and true Troy.

mkmckinley
02-23-11, 18:33
I'm big on the KAC 300m:

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=97082&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DKACO

Everything I need, nothing I don't, small, light, simple, and rugged.

handlebar1980
02-23-11, 19:19
I like the Troy's also.

Troys are the best.

Magic_Salad0892
02-23-11, 20:58
KAC 600m Micro, KAC M4 front sight.

Heartbreaker
02-23-11, 21:30
I like the KAC 300m, very rugged and simplistic, and I like how minimal the lollipop profile is for a great sight picture. The only problem is there isn't enough adjustment in my front sight to get it to a 50m or 100m zero, and I'd prefer either of those to a 25/300. Someday I'll machine a new lollipop for a 100m zero, don't quite have the skills on a mill to try it yet.

veeklog
02-23-11, 21:38
I like the KAC 200-600 sight a lot, but it is super-expensive. I currently run the MBUS, Troy, and Midwest Industries Sights. I really like the Midwest Industries sights, and they are super easy to deploy.

HeavyDuty
02-23-11, 21:39
I'm a big fan of the Hahn Precision BUIS, but then again I'm a special snowflake.

Rick1987
02-23-11, 23:19
I was looking at getting a set of Troys.

Reason: I never heard anything bad about them just that they are top quality.

Scotter260
02-23-11, 23:40
I'm short on first-hand experience but I've used, until recently, a Matech without any issues but have since switched to a DD 1.5 because I feel it offers a more sturdy sight. While an Aimpoint is nice, should the need arise that it can't be used, I feel my carbine is still complete without it and said Aimpoint is just frosting.

Doc Glockster
03-07-11, 21:47
Those of you that prefer the Troy, how does it mount?

That is, do you have to permanently loctite the mounting screw in place or anything like that?

The reason I ask is that until I decide on an optic I'd like to keep the option of removing the rear sight if I need to. Also, I'd like to keep the option to remove the rear sight if I decide on a different one.

marco.g
03-07-11, 22:14
Those of you that prefer the Troy, how does it mount?

That is, do you have to permanently loctite the mounting screw in place or anything like that?

No, just apply a small amount of blue loctite to the screw to keep it from backing out. Nothing permanent.

NavyDavy55
03-07-11, 22:36
I have Troys on my only build. Luv em.

Surf
03-07-11, 23:38
Troy's are high quality. As mentioned they need blue loctite. My biggest gripe about the Troy is that the peep sights loosen up a bit over time and you have to be aware of the peep going into half cock.

I talk about this around the 3:20 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2e9z4xR8yA

Whisker
03-08-11, 19:40
Surf,

my troy's wiggle a bit when they are in the detent, im thinking thats the start of the problem that you present in your video......

I'm thinking they're back ups right? and if ya need em you need rounds on target fast.... so how does jb weld sound? you think that would hold the large aperture in place by for example applying some on the small aperture......

Grrrr
03-08-11, 19:47
I only have fixed rears, but DD and LaRue are top of the heap IMO.

+1 for th lt

Chef Jeff
03-08-11, 19:49
Anything fixed and A-1. Keep it simple.

jjw
03-08-11, 19:58
these are just my ideas but i have been doing this a long time.

1. you do not need to be "name" brand and expensive. yhm fixed a-2 work well and very sturdy $60.00 range.

2. u don't need flips on a work gun as u never lower them.

3. take them off is stupid why ??? so no lever. Ala larue.

4. i wonder how many people really zero them. you should see the confused looks on students faces when we tell them to turn the r.d.s. off to do drills at nite.

YMMV

RD62
03-08-11, 20:35
Ultimately it depends on what I am trying to accomplish with the weapon.

By and large I am a fan of the DD A1.5 rear sight. Simple, robust, and inexpensive. Immediately available because of its fixed nature. No elevation to inadvertantly bump and the A1 style windage makes it hard to dick that up too. So you have a fast, strong, sight that's most likely to still be set where you left it.

The_War_Wagon
03-08-11, 20:36
Troy. Hands down.

I'd run GG&G and MBUS before, but when I got an M&P15T, I realized, my OTHER rifles needed a Troy as well. So now they all do!

Surf
03-08-11, 21:45
Surf,

my troy's wiggle a bit when they are in the detent, im thinking thats the start of the problem that you present in your video......

I'm thinking they're back ups right? and if ya need em you need rounds on target fast.... so how does jb weld sound? you think that would hold the large aperture in place by for example applying some on the small aperture......It's hard to tell over time with the Troy sights how they used to feel unless if you have a new set next to a worn in set. But if you have both side by side it is very easy to tell what I am talking about in the video. A new set of Troy's really won't wiggle at all. They will have that positive sounding snap or lock. Used ones will feel mushy and there will be no "snap" or lock at all. They will just push into place.

Most people who buy and use them will have no issue because they just mount their sights, leave em down and rarely use them. However in the irons only class that I teach we use the Troy's as a primary sight and they get a lot of use. Guarantee numerous times in the class the sight will go out of alignment. It is so common that guys will check their sights constantly. As for a fix, I really haven't addressed that with the Troy sights, but I will say that I am doing a lot of chopped carry handles. Rugged as all heck and this issue of the aperture out of battery is a non issue.

So for myself on a battle or duty type rifle with a red dot where I don't need a low pro flip sight, I will go with a fixed type of sight and the chopped handle is my #1 choice.

Redberens
03-08-11, 21:53
I really like LaRues A1 style sight.

13MPG
03-08-11, 23:11
Folding: I use Troy sights. I would like to try out the KAC sights one day.
Fixed: Daniel Defense

I just bought a fixed Troy rear sight. I have not had a chance to zero the rifle yet but my first impression of the sight is very good.

jackblack73
03-09-11, 03:46
Troy's are high quality. As mentioned they need blue loctite. My biggest gripe about the Troy is that the peep sights loosen up a bit over time and you have to be aware of the peep going into half cock.

I talk about this around the 3:20 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2e9z4xR8yA

Nice job on the chopped carrying handle. Only thing I'd change is to round off the top corners. They look sharp.

rob_s
03-09-11, 04:22
I like a balance of the lowest profile possible combined with the lightest weight possible, combined with the sturdiest design I can get. I also don't like, or need, all the complexity of the A2 sight and do not want to replicate all that needless complexity and weight in a BUIS.

I typically say "Troy for folding, Daniel Defense for fixed, Magpul for cheap". But I recently spent a bit of time (3 days) with a Troy fixed rear because I wanted a same-plane fixed rear sight and really couldn't find another one (there's the XS insert but for some reason I can't recall now I wanted to avoid it). I found the Troy sight very usable and as someone used to their folding sight I took to it very quickly.

Bobert0989
03-09-11, 04:24
Another Troy Junkie here...

I run Troys on three of my weapons right now, the fourth is an A2 w/ fixed carry-handle upper. I really want to try out the new diamond-styled Troys on my newest addition... if I can find one in stock somewhere.

HONESTLY SPEAKING:
In all fairness, my opinion of them isn't of professional standards, as I have not tried any KAC or MI or MBUS, etc. My first setup came with Troys, I liked them a lot, and stuck with what I liked.

That's my only opinion, and yes, I have one set out of three that are used enough to be considered "not-so-tight" anymore, but I wouldn't hesitate to use them if I needed them, and it is the rear-sight aperature only. Mine still locks into the detent, however.

I do also like the look of that chopped carry-handle. Simple, basic, affordable! Thanks for the idea!

Surf
03-09-11, 11:39
Nice job on the chopped carrying handle. Only thing I'd change is to round off the top corners. They look sharp.The top is de-horned so to speak and not sharp but is definitely not radiused or rounded. Easy enough to do if that is your choice.


I like a balance of the lowest profile possible combined with the lightest weight possible, combined with the sturdiest design I can get. I also don't like, or need, all the complexity of the A2 sight and do not want to replicate all that needless complexity and weight in a BUIS.

I typically say "Troy for folding, Daniel Defense for fixed, Magpul for cheap". But I recently spent a bit of time (3 days) with a Troy fixed rear because I wanted a same-plane fixed rear sight and really couldn't find another one (there's the XS insert but for some reason I can't recall now I wanted to avoid it). I found the Troy sight very usable and as someone used to their folding sight I took to it very quickly.I do many chopped handles as many cops tend to buy 6920's with handles attached. They often need stupid simple, extremely rugged and stupid cheap. For most cops, splitting hairs on weight from a fixed DD and a chopped handle is not a big difference or factor for them especially given the added cost as they are often strapped for cash. I will often set up the rear for an 50/200 IBZ then with a normal 6/3 setting be right on at 300. This is definitely not a concern for many shooters however but it provides that option.

I do run a lot of Troy sights and our unit employs 65 of them. But with our heavy use and the fact that we run them in the up position, we are finding that the aperture's are getting lose and don't stay positively locked and are easily knocked out of position just from having the rifle slung and banging on gear. They can be so slightly knocked out of position that you hardly notice without pressing on the aperture. But results can be scary when you shoot with them out of position. Definitely did not think of this possibility 4 years ago when we first got them.



I do also like the look of that chopped carry-handle. Simple, basic, affordable! Thanks for the idea!Stupid simple and cheap. Arguably the most rugged back up sight you can have. If your into counting calories, your going to get another ounce or two. But it does help that the weight is centered to the rear of the receiver and not out on the barrel somewhere. Some may actually prefer that weight in that area of the rifle. Definitely not trying to convert people to using this method, just making people aware of a simple, cheap and effective way of doing a rear BUIS. Many people have never heard of doing it. It is only an option. :)

Bobert0989
03-10-11, 04:27
And thats what I love about this place. I can always look for something new to try out for myself...

Rohardi
03-10-11, 09:28
KAC 600m Micro for me!

Doc Glockster
03-10-11, 10:01
One reason I like the DD fixed rear sight is that it uses a wire-type locking thread insert so that it doesn't have to be fixed in place with Loctite. I also like the LaRue mount because it's quick detachable.

At this point in my interest in BUIS's, I'm likely to change my mind.

Are there any folding sights that are QD? Or are there any that use the same locking insert as the DD fixed sight?

I've browsed Bravo Company's catalog mainly, and I would have thought for sure LaRue would make one, but I haven't found one yet.

Since this is for my mid-length, I want the option to mount anything from an Aimpoint to a magnified optical scope, so I want to keep my rear sight options pretty versatile.

ASH556
03-10-11, 10:23
One reason I like the DD fixed rear sight is that it uses a wire-type locking thread insert so that it doesn't have to be fixed in place with Loctite.

I'm not 100% sure, but when I installed my KAC 600M (non-micro), I encountered resistance about 1/3 way into the threads, and the thread insert looks similar to what's commonly seen on DD stuf with the reddish hue to it. This may be what you're talking about.

mstennes
03-10-11, 13:34
I'm almost embarrassed to post I like ARMS #40LP, that said my Troys loosened up on me and went back to my old #40's. Looks like I need to look into KAC? Then again I zero'd mine at the start and use optics anyway, and since I'm not kicking down doors they work fine for me, I just want them "in case" I have a optic failure while out varmiting or in a home defense situation.

HuttoAg96
03-10-11, 15:00
Another Troy Junkie here...

I run Troys on three of my weapons right now, the fourth is an A2 w/ fixed carry-handle upper. I really want to try out the new diamond-styled Troys on my newest addition... if I can find one in stock somewhere.



AIM Surplus has them in stock for a reasonable price ($119, free shipping) - I just ordered a Troy DOA rear folding sight for my BCM yesterday.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XTSSIGDOARFBT00&name=Troy+Ind.++Rear+Di-Optic+(DOA)+Flip+Up+Site&groupid=48

carbinero
03-10-11, 15:02
I have Larue fixed and Troy folding, and would not hesitate to try the KAC 200-600 next time. I really miss the ability to adjust for elevation.

Doc Glockster
03-17-11, 10:23
I'm a big fan of the Hahn Precision BUIS, but then again I'm a special snowflake.


That unit looks like it attaches with set screws through the top of the sight, correct? Does that raise any issues compared to a clamp type mount?


Also: to anybody who has experience with a bunch of different folding sights, which one would you say has the lowest profile when folded?

The reason I ask is that I'm trying to leave myself the most options as far as optics, not knowing what I'm going to get yet.

ASH556
03-17-11, 10:34
Also: to anybody who has experience with a bunch of different folding sights, which one would you say has the lowest profile when folded?

The reason I ask is that I'm trying to leave myself the most options as far as optics, not knowing what I'm going to get yet.

The 3 lowest profile will be the KAC 300M, KAC 600M Micro, and Troy in order from lowest to highest. The next lowest I've seen is probably the ARMS 40L.

interfan
03-17-11, 13:23
For real low-pro, you can't get too much better than KAC micros. I have both the standard 300m and 600m that I got before the micros came out.

For fixed, I like the DD and LMT. The LMTs are pretty bulky, but are tough. I also like the Centurion Arms HK-style diopters, too. I have spent a lot of time on HK rifles, and Monty builds very high quality products.

militarymoron
03-17-11, 13:40
KAC micros (300m and 600m) because of their size.

2/5 Grunt
03-17-11, 14:05
Reason 1: USMC issue (way back)
2: the (600m version) allowed shooters to effectively engage crew served BGs way out, in the sandbox.

It's a good piece of kit, and I BZO'd it before my M68.
Very simple...but not cheap.

S/F

desperado8556
03-17-11, 15:48
Any of you guys used LMT fixed rear sights? How's their hold up?

Thanks

carbinero
03-17-11, 16:11
In a different thread markm mentioned LMT switched to a weaker manufacturing on that, so he recommended a chopped forged carry handle would be stronger. IIRC.

Quiet-Matt
03-17-11, 16:54
For rear BUIS I like the Troy flip-ups, and for front I like DD fixed.

usmcvet
03-17-11, 19:22
DD, LaRue and Troy in that order.

Packman73
03-17-11, 19:40
I like GG&G (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=945649&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing%20-%20AR-15%20Parts%20(Not%20Magazines)-_-PriceCompListing-_-945649)

I also like the LMT fixed rear sight; I may put one one my LMT shorty someday.

HeavyDuty
03-17-11, 20:11
That unit looks like it attaches with set screws through the top of the sight, correct? Does that raise any issues compared to a clamp type mount?

Yes, the setscrews push straight down; they're nylon tipped so they don't even mar. It's a very secure mounting, and there's no sight tilting like you can get with a side clamp arrangement (I've had that happen a few times.)

2/5 Grunt
03-17-11, 20:27
For all that I lack in marksmanship, I defer to my bros who can F'ing HIT bad guys better than I.
Is this not what this is ultimately all about... whacking bad guys??
An old CQB principle is to go with what is (proven) combat effective.
Why are 10,000 systems/parts/mods out there to get the job done that one M-1 Garand could do in the 1940's??
Were an ultra star wars M-4 Alpha X-ray Bravo Niner necessary to get a combat task done , WW2 would be....ongoing.
In other words, if you can't do the job with an M1 or M-14, what makes you think you can do it with an M-4?
Food for thought.
S/F

UCoperator
03-17-11, 21:45
I run a Troy. I like it. However, the only other BUIS I've experience with is the MAGPUL BUIS. And since, I'm happy and competent with the Troy I probably won't be buying another one until it breaks.

I only own one AR15. If I ever get around to building another one I might look around, but only time will tell, because I'm pretty content with the Troy and will probably just buy another one.

jklaughrey
03-17-11, 22:05
My favorite BUIS rear has got to be the one I never use because my primary is the tits!

Doc Glockster
03-17-11, 22:26
In a different thread markm mentioned LMT switched to a weaker manufacturing on that, so he recommended a chopped forged carry handle would be stronger. IIRC.


Really? Weaker how? I read the LMT thread and I must have missed that. Could you summarize? Was it weak in the lockup? Or maybe the positive adjustment clicks? I just don't want to have to reread that whole thread again. :no:

EDITED TO ADD: Found the thread. Apparently the sight body is a casting now.

rapomstage3
03-18-11, 07:14
Kac 600m or 300m. number one has to be the 600m though.

Evil Colt 6920
03-18-11, 07:41
I like my Troy BUIS. After never really using it for the past year or so I decided to use it as the primary rear sight on another AR and have found new respect for it. Nice quality sight.

scottryan
03-18-11, 09:23
Troy.

I like the ablity to be able to have a sight that can fold but can be hard locked in the up position to mimic fixed sights.

I don't like fixed sights if I'm going to use BUIS.

I want the ability to fold them because:

1. I can make the gun profile smaller to fit in discrete bags, containers, etc
2. If I have to move the sight to a rifle with a magnified optic or put magnified optic on a gun, I can fold the sights down for clearance without have to change to a different style of BUIS.

usmcvet
03-18-11, 11:33
I've browsed Bravo Company's catalog mainly, and I would have thought for sure LaRue would make one, but I haven't found one yet.

For what it is worth LaRue, Noveske, BCM & S&W all use and Troy folders and have them marked with their companies logos. I went to the DD fixed because I was running my Troy in the up position all of the time on my gun at work. The DD was less money and I did not need to fold by sight down.

Beat Trash
03-18-11, 11:39
I'm using a Troy folding BUIS. It's a solid piece of equipment.

But I've found that with it in the up position, it's not nearly the distraction I thought it would be before I bought it.

The next time around, I'm going to go with a fixed BUIS, most likely the DD. This is only because of the cost difference.

I have had no issues with the Troy folding sight. It performs as advertised. But if I'm going to leave it in the up position all of the time, then I can't justify the extra cost for a folding vs. a fixed sight.

jklaughrey
03-18-11, 11:41
The DD was less money and I did not need to fold by sight down.

...think alike.

Doc Glockster
03-18-11, 11:43
I'm considering folding because I may want to mount a longer scope for precision shooting, then remove it and install another type of optic for tactical shooting. I'd like to have the ability to switch optics back and forth but leave the irons in place.

JSantoro
03-18-11, 11:55
For all that I lack in marksmanship, I defer to my bros who can F'ing HIT bad guys better than I.
Is this not what this is ultimately all about... whacking bad guys??
An old CQB principle is to go with what is (proven) combat effective.
Why are 10,000 systems/parts/mods out there to get the job done that one M-1 Garand could do in the 1940's??
Were an ultra star wars M-4 Alpha X-ray Bravo Niner necessary to get a combat task done , WW2 would be....ongoing.
In other words, if you can't do the job with an M1 or M-14, what makes you think you can do it with an M-4?
Food for thought.
S/F

I'm at a loss as to why you went from a nearly coherent prior post to this holier-than-thou Unabomber bullshit that has NOTHING to do with the topic.

...unless in your head the topic suddenly morphed it into :

2/5 grunt's errant, disjointed, random thoughts on AR accessories and the M1 Garand rifle

DO NOT feel the need to answer the question. It was rhetorical. Stop posting in this thread, specifically.

In general, post less and read more, until you figure out how to post without making it smug and pedantic, as though you are casting pearls before swine.

jklaughrey
03-18-11, 12:13
I'm at a loss as to why you went from a nearly coherent prior post to this holier-than-thou Unabomber bullshit that has NOTHING to do with the topic.

...unless in your head the topic suddenly morphed it into :


DO NOT feel the need to answer the question. It was rhetorical. Stop posting in this thread, specifically.

In general, post less and read more, until you figure out how to post without making it smug and pedantic, as though you are casting pearls before swine.

J, you just filled my humor/laughter meter for the day. Perhaps he was drinking a lil "mojo", you know how those opiates work.

usmcvet
03-18-11, 22:32
I'm considering folding because I may want to mount a longer scope for precision shooting, then remove it and install another type of optic for tactical shooting. I'd like to have the ability to switch optics back and forth but leave the irons in place.

If a longer optic is in your future run the Troy. It is an awesome sight. Its the "good standard" used by many manufacturers. I need the folding Troy when I had a TR24G.

If you're running a red dot listen to me and Doc and get a DD. Some guys like the folded rear sight because the field of view is a little cleaner. The fixed rear doesn't bother me. It is kinda like a security blanket and I like seeing it there.

tahoe
03-19-11, 10:33
I just took the carry handle from my Colt A3 and cut the front portion off. It is already sighted from the rifle and does not interfere with my Aimpoint ML2. Works for me, as this is a duty rifle. :no::no:

warriorsociologist
03-19-11, 11:20
I'm running (1) Troy, (1) chopped CH, (1) YHM A1 flip-up, and when they come in from back order, (4) MBUS II rears. The Troy is on my SAM-R clone as it is the folding one I trust the most and that rifle would be the one that would need the best BUIS since at CQB ranges the LT-140 + Leupy Mk4 4.5-14 I have on it would be coming off pronto.

My K.I.S.S. LW middy normally runs a "full" CH or a chopped CH; my wife runs the YHM A1 flip-up, and right now my RECCE build (LT-140 + TAC30 glass), my kids' rifles, and my TacSol .22lr all run MBUS (soon to be MBUS II). I've only had one of these newer MBUS sights in hand and I do like it marginally better than the 1st edition.

Currently, my favorite is the Troy. I've never ran a KAC, but the 300m looks like something I might try when I upgrade the glass & rears on my RECCE build. My hesitation is that I think I might miss the option of being able to flip between the sight aperatures on the Troy.

ipduffy
03-19-11, 19:20
A.R.M.S. #40L fits under my ACOG nicely.

Doc Glockster
04-06-11, 09:54
Well, I ended up ordering the PRI folding rear sight partly because I couldn't find the Troy or Bravo Company equivalent in stock at the time.

It looks like a pretty robust sight. Seems to have the same helicoil insert for the threads that the DD fixed rear sight has.

One concern I have is that the apertures seem to only lock in place with a spring loaded detent ball butting up against a shelf instead of a flat spring like the A2 sight. That seems a little Mickey Mouse but someone with more hard experience with that sight may say it's okay.

Pathfinder Ops
04-06-11, 11:24
A.R.M.S. #40L fits under my ACOG nicely.

This is my set up as well.

Also I have one of these on a "slick" meaning there is no glass it's just fixed irons up front and the ARMS 40L as rear sight.

Magic_Salad0892
04-06-11, 11:56
Delete.

Bedford Forrest
04-06-11, 13:18
Troy gets my vote.

latewatch
04-06-11, 16:15
Since I run an ACOG on my Patrol Rifle, I tried out the Dueck Defense offset sights and that's what I'm running now. I think it's definitely the way to go if your running a magnified optic.

dew4au
04-06-11, 17:59
My Midwest Industries SPLP works great for me. I had a chopped carry handle for a while, but I decided to try a folding sight. I ended up liking it much better, so I'll stick with this.

Killjoy
04-06-11, 18:41
Troy folding on my personal AR's, I like their simplicity and I prefer a clean view for my optics; one of my optics can't co-witness anyways (S&B). My job rifle has a fixed Troy, but we are testing optics for the near future and are planning to keep the fixed Troy's.

Alpha Sierra
04-06-11, 18:54
LaRue

308smk
04-06-11, 23:22
Kac 600m micro or folding Troy would be my picks.
Currently using the Troy. I like running a absolute cowitness T1 micro+Fixed FSB, with the folding rear Troys. I like the dot on the tip of the front post, rear folded down.

warpigM-4
04-06-11, 23:50
Chopped Colt Handle that was already sighted in.start to finish took all of 30 minutes used a dremel with a cutting disk and smoothed and rounded the edges with a file.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PFC-JB/006-8.jpg

jonconsiglio
04-06-11, 23:57
KAC 200-600, but not the micro. The 300 seems nice too in my limited experience.

Next to that would be the Troy.

Packman73
04-06-11, 23:59
Chopped Colt Handle that was already sighted in.start to finish took all of 30 minutes used a dremel with a cutting disk and smoothed and rounded the edges with a file.



Looks great, what did you paint it with?

warpigM-4
04-07-11, 00:46
Looks great, what did you paint it with?

Thanks I used this



ALUMA-HYDE II Matte Black it matched My Colt perfect


http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1117/Product/ALUMA_HYDE_reg__II

Packman73
04-07-11, 09:05
Thanks I used this



ALUMA-HYDE II Matte Black it matched My Colt perfect


http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1117/Product/ALUMA_HYDE_reg__II

Oh, ok. I've used that before, thanks.

Greg Bell
06-17-11, 23:46
I like the fixed DD stuff. Very light and super simple to use. I don't run a magnifier anymore so I don't have much use for a folding sight.

Doc Glockster
09-26-11, 13:35
Anybody have any experience with the PADS rear sight?

(Example on this website: http://www.botachtactical.com/maba60si.html )

DT120
09-26-11, 14:51
I like the GG&G MAD or the KAC 600M.

Doc Glockster
09-26-11, 15:10
Looks like Ares Armor has the PADS/Matech sights at a bargain price:

http://www.aresarmor.com/install/ecom-prodshow/MATECH-BU.html

I ordered a couple.

B52U
09-26-11, 15:27
Looks like Ares Armor has the PADS/Matech sights at a bargain price:

http://www.aresarmor.com/install/ecom-prodshow/MATECH-BU.html

I ordered a couple.

The matech's are fine, only thing that bothers me about them is when the elevation knob gets moved by your gear.

Doc Glockster
09-26-11, 15:40
The matech's are fine, only thing that bothers me about them is when the elevation knob gets moved by your gear.

I see what you mean. Still, if it is only being used for a backup sight, you would just have to train yourself to make sure the elevation is on the right setting as soon as you take your broken optic off. I don't think you would choose the Matech sight for co-witnessing.

For $45.00 it's hard to not at least try it out. I was all set to order the Troy sight, but reading several complaints in this very thread about the apertures sort of finding their way to half-cock regularly it makes me think that would be more annoying than having to verify your elevation.

YMMV.

Another one I'm investigating:

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=40L-SP&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Darms%26searchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html

Trouble is that one doesn't seem to be in stock at the outlets I've been checking.

Anybody want to say what's good or bad about it?

maximus83
09-26-11, 15:51
I like GG&G (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=945649&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Gunsmithing%20-%20AR-15%20Parts%20(Not%20Magazines)-_-PriceCompListing-_-945649)

I also like the LMT fixed rear sight; I may put one one my LMT shorty someday.

I'm running the LMT fixed rear as well on my HD rifle. Just ordered a Troy set for a new build I'm doing.

Rhino-1
09-26-11, 15:53
Chopped Colt Handle that was already sighted in.start to finish took all of 30 minutes used a dremel with a cutting disk and smoothed and rounded the edges with a file.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h86/PFC-JB/006-8.jpg

Love it. Totally satisfies the KISS and ingenuity side of me.. Tres cool! Next time I run across an inexpensive handle, I'm going to give this a shot.

I have Magpul Gen II, Troy, and whatever comes on the rear of a Colt 6940, BUIS--I prefer the Troys...

sgtrock82
09-26-11, 17:57
Currently run a troy behind my acog. I certainly havent tried them all but I like the troys profile in both height and width with no knobs to get bumped or crowd the charging handle.

I had a larue behind my old aimpoint setup and loved it. There are certainly cheaper options, but i thought the larue was both simple and a great looking piece. It will find its way onto an iron sight only back up carbine one of these days. I like both the troy and the larue as the windage adjustment is out of the way and hard to mess up. I personally have no use for turning knobs if im not making wind calls during a NRA/CMP match.

I dont think of myself as very experienced with tactical rifles, but have plenty of instances of exposed knobs on all sorts of sight and rifles, getting bumped, turned, getting gummy and working loose. With their plethora of screws, pins, springs, and detents its not suprising. And the dude from page 4 should know the marvel of a rear sight on the M1 and M14 will come apart on you in a heartbeat.

Hmac
09-26-11, 18:19
Troys are what are installed on many of the weapons in Call of Duty - Black Ops, so they must be the best. :lol:

Although they appear to be installed backwards....

Rusty_Shackleford
09-26-11, 18:22
Matech!

ARKAR
09-27-11, 06:12
KAC 200-600M Micros for me. They are the only flip-up that I know of that will fit under a NV mount. It's close, but they fit. I also like the elevation adjustability. Best sights that money can buy in my opinion.

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320/ARKAR_photo/IMG_1049.jpg
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320/ARKAR_photo/IMG_1053.jpg
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320/ARKAR_photo/IMG_1057.jpg
http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy320/ARKAR_photo/IMG_1059.jpg?t=1256865929

ARKAR

Doc Glockster
11-29-11, 09:45
I'm back on the hunt for a BUIS. I recently acquired an ACOG TA44SG-10 and did not like the lack of eye relief. In a roundabout way it got traded for an Aimpoint T-1, which I am liking more and more.

What I'm finding I definitely do not like is a cowitness with the rear iron sight. I like the dot to sit on the front sight post, but having it cowitness with the rear sight makes the view claustrophobic IMHO. I haven't had a chance to try it at the range yet, but I'm liking the uncluttered sight picture of the T-1. I also quickly saw why most photos you see of T-1's show them mounted pretty far forward on the flat top receiver. I also notice, for example in the Bravo Company catalog, that most photos show T-1's being used in conjunction with a folding rear sight, so evidently I'm not the only one that prefers not to cowitness.

So....I'm back to looking for a folding rear sight.

Re-reading this thread I see Troy gets a lot of good votes, but I'm uncomfortable with these rumblings of "aperture wander" to half cock as the sight loosens with use. I ultimately sold the PRI folding sight I mentioned earlier in this thread because I could see it having the same problem, that is, that there is nothing that really solidly locks the aperture on one setting or the other.



I couldn't find much on this site about the YHM BUIS, unless it's buried in another topic.

Anybody have any experience with this:

http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16

or the A-1 style version:

http://www.cctactical.com/store/pc/Yankee-Hill-Machine-9680-A1-Rear-Sight-59p524.htm

ASH556
11-29-11, 10:10
Any reason you keep ignoring the KAC?

Doc Glockster
11-29-11, 10:18
Any reason you keep ignoring the KAC?

Price. A quick Google searched turned up prices of $149 to over $200 depending on outlet. Even Grant is out of the KAC 300m at $144.00.

I have not ruled it out.

Amicus
11-29-11, 10:18
Re-reading this thread I see Troy gets a lot of good votes, but I'm uncomfortable with these rumblings of "aperture wander" to half cock as the sight loosens with use. I ultimately sold the PRI folding sight I mentioned earlier in this thread because I could see it having the same problem, that is, that there is nothing that really solidly locks the aperture on one setting or the other.

I'm right with you on this. I highly suspect that my Troy apertures will not "stay put" over time. I recently purchased a PRI and have reached the same conclusion. (Now I wonder if I should return it.)

I have no experience with the YHM sights, but I have played around with the GG&G BUIS (standard A2 Back Up Iron Sight) and am very satisfied with the "lock up" of the aperture; I don't think that it will shift or loosen with use. It is the older A2 style "offset" aperture (i.e., not same plane). I am not satisfied with the price on the same plane apertures (+$45) or with the fact that they are using someone else's aperture to manufacture them (XS). Also, GG&G has retained the larger windage knob (which is quite unnecessary, as Troy and PRI have shown).

Can't anyone make a flip up BUIS with a same plane aperture that (we can be assured) will not loosen up?

davidjinks
11-29-11, 10:29
KAC 200-600M for me.

I've used quite a few BUIS'. By far I like the KAC BUIS the best.

Doc Glockster
11-29-11, 11:34
I'm trying to do some reading up on the Wilson Combat rear sight, too:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flip-Up-Rear-Sight/productinfo/TR-FURS/

Looks like it's built like a tank at any rate.

And a slightly different style:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Quick-Detach-Rear-Sight-Rail-Mount/productinfo/TR-QDSR/

Anybody?

SteadyUp
11-29-11, 11:44
I started out with Troy folding sights, but have recently begun to switch over to Daniel Defense A1.5 sights, at the suggestion of my trainer. I have to agree with him that having a sight ready to go is better than flipping one up, even if it only takes a second.

I run an Aimpoint H-1 in a tall LaRue mount, and I don't find the view through the H-1 to be crowded at all. The rear sight is barely noticeable unless needed.

Amicus
11-29-11, 12:38
I'm trying to do some reading up on the Wilson Combat rear sight, too:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flip-Up-Rear-Sight/productinfo/TR-FURS/

Looks like it's built like a tank at any rate.

And a slightly different style:

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Quick-Detach-Rear-Sight-Rail-Mount/productinfo/TR-QDSR/

Anybody?

The top sight appears to be the older design, and may have its own problems. Please see the reviews at:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/244103/wilson-combat-tactical-flip-up-detachable-rear-sight-ar-15-flattop-matte

I have heard similar complaints on other websites, and steered clear, even though the idea of having an elevation adjustment on a BUIS was attractive.

Doc Glockster
11-29-11, 15:32
Here's an interesting one with multiple apertures for different distances.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/380597/gg-and-g-multiple-aperture-device-mad-flip-up-rear-sight-with-ranging-window-ar-15-flattop-aluminum-matte?cm_vc=S016ID723127

I can definitely see the utility of that, but once you've got it set to a particular range, would you ever even use the others? It is a backup sight after all.

I also would want to know if anyone experiences "aperture drift" with a sight like this. It would be a helluva thing to flip up your BUIS only to find it's between settings.

citadelshooter
11-29-11, 15:43
I like the KAC 300m, but grew fond of the GG&G MAD. It folds tight to the receiver and does what it need to do when needed. I run a 1-4x variable optic normally in a Larue mount so if needed I can pull the scope off and run my irons know I will hit what I need to.

http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/ggg_1006.jpg

Couldn't find a pic of it mounted on my Recce. Here is a pic of one setup similar to mine under an ACOG.

http://www.ricanhavocproductions.com/images/dyed3.jpg

Animal_Mother556
11-29-11, 15:48
I couldn't find much on this site about the YHM BUIS, unless it's buried in another topic.

Anybody have any experience with this:

http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=16

or the A-1 style version:

http://www.cctactical.com/store/pc/Yankee-Hill-Machine-9680-A1-Rear-Sight-59p524.htm

I have used YHM irons in the past, and my father still uses one on a KISS carbine. I have no complaints. They held zero perfectly for me. Granted, I was not dropping my rifle onto concrete or using it in a combat situation. But, through numerous thousands of rounds, they have held up perfectly.

Would I buy one again? Hmmmm....probably not. For just a few more dollars I would most likely go with Troy.

Doc Glockster
11-29-11, 16:01
Would I buy one again? Hmmmm....probably not. For just a few more dollars I would most likely go with Troy.

How does the YHM hold the apertures on one setting or the other? Does it use a spring-loaded ball like the PRI (and I think the Troy :confused:)?

This is a deal-breaker for me. There has got to be a more sure way to hold the aperture in place than a rinky-dink spring and ball. That's why I got rid of the PRI.

Backstop
11-29-11, 16:31
Folding = Troy

Fixed = LaRue

The Troy has been on the gun 3 years. Maybe twice a year I check it from bad breath distance out to 100 yds, and I've done a few carbine matches with it. At a carbine class, some instr kept coming up and turning my Aimpoint off, so I had to raise the Troy. It hasn't gone out of whack yet. I used Loctite and drew a witness mark.

The fixed LaRue is the only one I'd use if I was going fixed. Had one on the gun maybe 6 months, and sold it. It bugged me being in my vision.

Animal_Mother556
11-29-11, 16:41
How does the YHM hold the apertures on one setting or the other? Does it use a spring-loaded ball like the PRI (and I think the Troy :confused:)?

This is a deal-breaker for me. There has got to be a more sure way to hold the aperture in place than a rinky-dink spring and ball. That's why I got rid of the PRI.


You know, I can't remember. The one that I had, I gave to a buddy who was in need of a BUIS for a qualification day, and I just let him keep it. If I get out to my folks place in the near future, I will try to remember to take a look at my dad's.

krichbaum
11-29-11, 16:52
I like the Troy fixed rear sight for use with a red dot sight. I use a tall mount (lower third co-witness) and when using the dot I sight over the iron sights so they don't bother me. If I want to use the irons then I have to change my cheek weld, but this is what works for me.

If I use a folding sight, it's the Troy also. But I really don't need folding sights usually.

I haven't had any issues with the apertures, but I also don't put them through what anybody would call hard use. I don't tend to flip the apertures much either, I usually just keep them on the small aperture with the fixed sights and the folding sights get flipped to the small aperture when deployed (which is rare). FWIW, one reason I like the Troy sights is the apertures are same plane.

Amicus
11-29-11, 17:12
How does the YHM hold the apertures on one setting or the other? Does it use a spring-loaded ball like the PRI (and I think the Troy :confused:)?

This is a deal-breaker for me. There has got to be a more sure way to hold the aperture in place than a rinky-dink spring and ball. That's why I got rid of the PRI.

Yup, the Troy does too.

I took a few minutes to check out the PRI and three Troys (2 regular, 1 di-optic). The PRI ball and detent system appeared to be more substantial and worked better than the Troy, but neither get my full confidence.

The GG&G MAD (I have the one with two versions of each aperture) has always worked for me. It has the added advantage (in my book) that the windage knob is at the base rather than hanging in the air. But, at least one gun writer intimated that he had great confidence in the MAD until it failed him. To his shame, he did not elaborate.

Here's what I think about the MAD problem. There is a small amount of play in the wheel (side to side) where the apertures are. This does not bother me, although the play has gotten a tiny bit worse over the years. My real concern is that some day some tiny bit of grit is going to get into the housing that contains the wheel, and the wheel will stop turning. Using the rule that Murphy made, it will jam between apertures, and there is no way to easily get at the workings to clear the grit.

OK. To sum up, here's my list of gripes concerning BUIS I currently own:

GG&G (standard): Tiny and thin button to release the sight. It does not seem substantial enough to withstand hard use. Same plane is pricey.

GG&G MAD: See above.

Troy: Weak ball and detent system holding the aperture in place.

PRI: Same as with the Troy, but slightly better.

Brownells (simple flip up): Good basic sight, but the aperture is too small and there is no system to lock the raised sight in place. The detent is pretty strong though. The windage adjustment is at the base (good) and the attachment nut is huge (good/bad, depending).

Magpul (Gen 1): No real complaints. I like the combo detent and spring system to defend the sight from drops. I don't like the top of the large aperture insert (it's flat). And the sight is plastic (not a fan). Works pretty well though, and it's the only sight I know of (except the MAD) with multiple apertures where you can flip up the sight to either the large or small aperture without further adjustment.

ETA:

Literally, in the light of day, I took another comparative look at the PRI and Troy sights' detent systems. Both appear (from the Mark 1 eyeball) to be similar in size. The Mark 1 finger test indicates that the Troy spring behind the ball might be a touch stronger than the PRI spring. What makes the PRI appear to be more solid comes from the deeper channel that provides the detent for the ball (i.e., the ball fits better into the PRI detent than the Troy). It also appears, without taking measurements, that the detent channel on my di-optic is shallower than the standard Troy.

Getting a really solid lockup might involve a deeper channel, stronger spring, or a more massive system altogether. Of course, all these come with costs. Carving a deeper channel in the aperture assembly would probably not bode well for the longevity of the sight -- you would lose the hard anodizing that protects the channel from wear. Unless you are willing to go through the trouble of pulling the sight apart and finding a stronger spring (which would, of course, create greater wear on the channel through flipping the aperture), I suggest lubing the channel occasionally to cut down on wear to the anodizing. This would help to preserve the status quo.

Meta-Prometheus
11-30-11, 05:26
I have used Troy, MaTech, Magpul and currently LaRue BUIS.

I definitely like the LaRue BUIS the most so far. I have the same plane version and it is just like the A2 carry handle sight. Just without the extra weight and elevation.

Doc Glockster
11-30-11, 08:51
Since starting this thread I finally pulled the Matech sight out of the packaging and the sight definitely looks Mickey Mouse as far as durability. I think the aperture is too small too.

The KAC sights are looking better and better aren't they?

Joethe33
11-30-11, 10:58
KAC 300 600 or the Troy

Byrd
11-30-11, 11:22
Knight's 300M.

Ronin64
11-30-11, 11:26
Anyone have some pics of fixed front and rear BUIS with a normal size aimpoint? Pics through the irons and RDS, I'm curious what this looks like because I don't know anyone in person with such a set up. I'm highly interested in going with fixed sights and an Aimpoint Comp M4 on m next build.

Ronin64
11-30-11, 11:41
I have a Matech on my 6940, it is sturdy and the small aperture is accurate for my normal shooting ranges, 50-100m. The adjustment out to 600m gives me a warm fuzzy, but I would never be taking a long range shot like that on iron sights in a real life scenario. I can see how the long range adjustments are useful in the battlefield because you don't have to worry about missing a few shots. And you can spot yourself in with a partner by walking shots to your target, but in police work you can't afford to miss if you're going for an accurate shot. The Matech does not look durable at all, but I haven't tested that at all. Its just a thin piece of metal sticking in the air. Also the elevation adjustment knob looks easy to hit on accident and put it out to 300/400, but I haven't done that on accident yet.

I just ordered a Troy ($83 black friday sale), so I hope it holds up. I had no idea there was issues with the apertures getting lose because everyone I know tells me how awesome the Troy is. I only use my irons a few times a year, so hopefully they'll last a decade before I need to replace them!

I wasn't aware of the KAC sights before I found this thread, but I'll look into those if I decide I want the 600m warm fuzzy back.

carbinero
11-30-11, 13:07
My Troy has a very slight movement when you apply a little pressure to it. I got over being concerned about that. On my strictly irons gun, I use a Larue. On the optics gun, I figure the Troy is back-up anyhow.

Code3Patriot
11-30-11, 16:34
Anyone have some pics of fixed front and rear BUIS with a normal size aimpoint? Pics through the irons and RDS, I'm curious what this looks like because I don't know anyone in person with such a set up. I'm highly interested in going with fixed sights and an Aimpoint Comp M4 on m next build.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/IMG_1993.jpg

This was taken from my work rifle. LMT rear and Aimpoint M4 with Killflash in a absolute co-witness LaRue mount. My eyes don't focus like the picture projects - the rear sight blurs out entirely when I'm on target with big peep flipped up.

AGENT TIKKI
11-30-11, 17:35
Just got me some Diamondheads, I'm really liking them. More so than my Troy DOA or Mbus.

pleaforwar
11-30-11, 19:55
I absolutely love the LMT fixed sights. I'm ergonomically used to them, they aren't expensive, and they have worked well for me.

usafmsgtret
11-30-11, 20:39
Matech - dirt cheap on eBay and genuine US government issue, used by our troops in the sandbox. Doesn't get any better than that.

Shoup
11-30-11, 21:11
I like my Troy buis. My patrol carbine takes a beating in the trunk and it has never loosened or moved around. I like the Matech as well.

decodeddiesel
11-30-11, 22:20
Fixed = LMT Rear with thumb screw replaced with a 10/32 lock-nut.

Folding = KAC 600M

GeorgiaBoy
11-30-11, 22:26
Daniel Defense A1.5.

samuse
11-30-11, 22:28
The more I shoot, the more I appreciate a rear sight that's always up.

I have found that there are plenty of times, especially when going from light to dark or dark to light conditions that I just can't see my dot until my eyes adjust or I turn up the dot.

I originally thought that BUIS were for when the optic broke, lately I've been thinking it's more of a second option in varying light conditions.

That being said, I'm thinking about putting my DD A1.5 back on and ditching the Troy flip up.


ETA: I use a Troy flip-up mounted in T-2. It makes it easier for me to get at the charging handle and when the sight was all the way back in T-1 it would occasionally hit me in the nose. Especially with a TA-01NSN.

Ronin64
11-30-11, 22:33
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w40/BadBoyACSO/IMG_1993.jpg

This was taken from my work rifle. LMT rear and Aimpoint M4 with Killflash in a absolute co-witness LaRue mount. My eyes don't focus like the picture projects - the rear sight blurs out entirely when I'm on target with big peep flipped up.

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for! Looks like a very nice setup and the rear site isnt that distracting, knowing the eyes will focus differently than the camera.

Amicus
12-04-11, 13:21
Although not my “favorite,” I recently received a Brownell’s 360 series (HK-style) rear sight that I am going to try out.

While it is a bit on the high side (slightly less than one inch) when folded down, it does not interfere with any of my optics.

What I like about it so far:

Heavy duty: if my primary goes down, I like the fact that this sight sill appear to hold up under the roughest conditions until I replace it. I think I could drop it, while deployed in the up position, numerous times on concrete from realistic (say, 5 feet) heights without doing incapacitating damage.

Multiple apertures: I don’t see a need for four apertures: three graduated from 100-300 yards, and, a large aperture, but I could find a use for at least two.

Significant Detents: When in the “up” position, it is fairly sturdy. While I can induce a for-aft wobble with some finger pressure, it always appears to snap back to its normal position. It is not going to fold back unless I give it a good push. While I can push it back to an interim position where it will stop halfway between folded and deployed, it is obvious that it is out of position and can be cured with a slight push forward. The rotating aperture drum will not move without some significant effort wither.

Slightly smaller large aperture: I’ve always thought the standard 0.19”-0.2” apertures were too large, even for close, fast, shooting. The large aperture on this sight is 0.16”.

What I don’t like:

“U” shaped apertures: When sighting, some apertures appear as “U”s rather than “O”s. This is due to the relatively thin metal at the top of the aperture when using the lare and 300 yard apertures. It also appears to be part of the sight design. (Perhaps those with different cheek welds will “see” it differently.) I don’t think this is a deal breaker.

Large attachment nut: The nut is heavy and capable of accepting a slot screwdriver, but sticks out so far a hasty grab for the CH could result in snagging the nut by accident. The nut is not captured and could easily fall off without Loctite, or, be replaced by something less intrusive (extrusive?).

Rotating sight aperture adjustments: The drum only rotates counter-clockwise. Starting from the large aperture, the next is the 300 yard, then the 200, then the 100, then back to the large. This make sense, if you are transitioning from a 50 yard/220 meter zero use to a 300 + yard shot. (If, the sight is properly calibrated, and I must check this.) Otherwise, you will have to make two additional stops to get to the 100 yard aperture. All depends on how you want to use the sight, I guess.

Weight: Not sure how much it weighs, but it is more than any other BUIS in my collection.

TedG
12-04-11, 18:52
Yankee Hill Machine.... it's simple, and it's bullet-proof..... no, make that bomb-proof!

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i90/TedG954/2011-11-29.jpg

wrench
12-04-11, 23:39
I'll probably get jumped for saying this, but Magpul MBUS. They just work.

I've put a couple sets pretty well through the ringer. Things that would have bent iron sights didn't even phase the MBUS. They just absorb the shock, and spring right back into place.

motorolahamm
12-05-11, 06:26
I like the KAC 600m and 300m sights

SiRed91
12-05-11, 10:33
Troys came on my gun, so thats what Im stickin with :thank_you2:

Doc Glockster
12-05-11, 10:37
Although not my “favorite,” I recently received a Brownell’s 360 series (HK-style) rear sight that I am going to try out.



Link? I searched Brownells website and couldn't find it, although their search function ain't the greatest in the world.

Amicus
12-05-11, 11:55
Link? I searched Brownells website and couldn't find it, although their search function ain't the greatest in the world.

OK.

2nd down.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25147/Product/CAR-15-M4-FLIP-UP-TACTICAL-REAR-SIGHTS

Or, do a keyword search for "360" and click on:

CAR-15/M4 FLIP-UP TACTICAL REAR SIGHTS

I did not have the "issues" one reviewer had with QC. Perhaps they cleaned that up over the past two years. I think this is a "you like it or you hate it" setup. Thus far, I like it, but I have yet to get to the range to really put it to a test.

krm375
12-05-11, 12:20
GG&G MAD in conjunction with an EoTech and PRI Hk style front site.

Doc Glockster
12-05-11, 12:56
OK.

2nd down.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25147/Product/CAR-15-M4-FLIP-UP-TACTICAL-REAR-SIGHTS

Or, do a keyword search for "360" and click on:

CAR-15/M4 FLIP-UP TACTICAL REAR SIGHTS

I did not have the "issues" one reviewer had with QC. Perhaps they cleaned that up over the past two years. I think this is a "you like it or you hate it" setup. Thus far, I like it, but I have yet to get to the range to really put it to a test.


Okay, I saw that the first time and didn't think that was it. I was expecting an HK G3 turret type sight I guess. :D

Amicus
12-05-11, 14:34
Okay, I saw that the first time and didn't think that was it. I was expecting an HK G3 turret type sight I guess. :D

Just to make sure we are looking at the same sight, here is a review Stickman did on another forum:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?419-Brownells-HK-Style-Flip-Up-Sight

Doc Glockster
12-05-11, 14:51
Just to make sure we are looking at the same sight, here is a review Stickman did on another forum:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?419-Brownells-HK-Style-Flip-Up-Sight

That link is what I expected. The first link is more like a Matech sight.

Amicus
12-05-11, 16:00
That link is what I expected. The first link is more like a Matech sight.

The "360" was the 2nd sight down on the Brownell's page. The simple flip up (without turret) is their base model.

lamarbrog
12-05-11, 18:14
I have a Daniel Defense fixed rear sight. It's basically an A1 style adjustment, windage only and it requires a bullet nose. It may be the sight you have- I bought it as a new take-off so I'm not too sure on the model number or anything.

Since it isn't a flip-up I don't really use it as a backup sight. When I feel like using irons, though, I take off the ACOG and put this on. It's a very crisp aperture, and I've been very happy with it.

For a true backup sight, the MagPul MBUS gets the pick. I hate the aperture on it... but it's small and light and only serves as a backup.

brushy bill
12-06-11, 20:46
Matech - dirt cheap on eBay and genuine US government issue, used by our troops in the sandbox. Doesn't get any better than that.

I have seen several where the sight will pop up after firing a single round because the detent (nomenclature?) is defective/worn

K1tt3n5
12-06-11, 23:36
I have a bcm branded troy that I'm very happy with.

Austin_101
12-07-11, 00:08
I have a Troy rear on mine. Solid, similar to standard A-2 sight picture (no need to learn something new) and accurate.

yugotprblms
12-10-11, 10:11
I have this sort of dilemma is well. The KAC 600 seems to be a widely lauded BUIS, but why? The aperture seems so small that for fast acquisition it is not super great. Am I wrong? I have not found any good reviews on the BUIS itself, as I would like to see what various people have to say on it, not just that they like it and suggest other people to go with it.

markm
12-10-11, 15:15
I found a BUIS that I can live with!

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/buis.jpg

Doc Glockster
12-10-11, 15:41
I just purchased a used A2-style GG&G sight for $40 from a local gun shop! What little I've messed with it so far I'm impressed. It feels like it has a flat spring to keep the aperture in position just like an A2 sight. The cross bolt for the flat top mount is a little small but if my eyes aren't deceiving me it has a helicoil type locking insert like the DD 1.5 fixed sight cross bolt. The sight requires you press a spring-loaded button to fold it. I kind of like this: no chance of bumping it to a "halfway" position.

For forty bucks I'm liking it real good. Even if I learn to hate it later, for that price I'm willing to make it my primary BUIS to try out .

usmcvet
12-10-11, 15:52
Markm's double milspec BUIS!

Doc. What does a DD BUIS cost $60? I woukd go with the known instead.

Doc Glockster
12-10-11, 15:56
Markm's double milspec BUIS!

Doc. What does a DD BUIS cost $60? I woukd go with the known instead.

I don't want a fixed sight though. If DD comes up with folding equivalent to the 1.5 fixed I'm there. :cool:

usmcvet
12-10-11, 16:04
Doc. Do you have a photo/link? Is it a flip up?

Doc Glockster
12-10-11, 22:06
Doc. Do you have a photo/link? Is it a flip up?

It appears to be the one in this link, although mine does not have Tritium:

http://www.gggaz.com/a2-back-up-iron-sight-buis.html

As long as this sight is capable of surviving a reasonable amount of abuse I say the GG&G is GTG.

I notice they list the 'same plane aperture' as an option. I'm not sure how important that is. Even the DD 1.5 sight does not feature 'same plane apertures.'

Can somebody refresh us right quick on how the sight's zero might change when switching apertures if they are not on the same plane?

Amicus
12-11-11, 08:43
It appears to be the one in this link, although mine does not have Tritium:

http://www.gggaz.com/a2-back-up-iron-sight-buis.html

As long as this sight is capable of surviving a reasonable amount of abuse I say the GG&G is GTG.

I notice they list the 'same plane aperture' as an option. I'm not sure how important that is. Even the DD 1.5 sight does not feature 'same plane apertures.'

Can somebody refresh us right quick on how the sight's zero might change when switching apertures if they are not on the same plane?

Your GG&G is NOT same plane.

Three things to be concerned about with flip-style apertures are:

1. Offset between the two apertures (different in height between the centers) -- same plane has no offset (centers have the same height)

2. Difference in diameter between the apertures (large apertures is usually 0.19"-0.2", small is usually about 0.07-0.1)

3. sight radius (distance between rear sight aperture and front sight post)

The technical differences are usually less important than your sighting-in techniques. If the sight has no offset (i.e., same plane), sight-in using the small aperture; the large will have the same POA/POI setting.

If there is an offset, start by sighting in with the small aperture, then make adjustments to compensate for use with the large aperture.

See: notes by Failure2Stop and Scottryan on this at:

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-22023.html

For the specs, generally, see:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64051

Mr_Anderson556
12-11-11, 20:02
I run Troy on my own rifles and like them a lot. I have used the 200-600 site that comes on the M4 and really dislike it. Never seems to stay down.

ProfX
12-11-11, 20:28
Troy.

yugotprblms
12-12-11, 09:20
Anyone?


I have this sort of dilemma is well. The KAC 600 seems to be a widely lauded BUIS, but why? The aperture seems so small that for fast acquisition it is not super great. Am I wrong? I have not found any good reviews on the BUIS itself, as I would like to see what various people have to say on it, not just that they like it and suggest other people to go with it.

rsilvers
12-12-11, 10:36
#1 KAC 600 meter
#2 KAC 300 meter
#3 ARMS 40L
#4 ARMS 40
#5 MaTech

rsilvers
12-12-11, 10:39
Anyone?

If you think the KAC aperture is too small, you can ream it larger.

Byrd
12-12-11, 15:07
#1 KAC 600 meter
#2 KAC 300 meter
#3 ARMS 40L
#4 ARMS 40
#5 MaTech

I've replaced all my KAC 600M's with 300M's. Why do you prefer the 600M? I never used the elevation adjustment. Seems like one more thing to break.

ffusaf23
12-12-11, 15:42
For rifles with non-magnified optics I like the simplicity and durability of the fixed DD A1.5.

I use Matech with ACOGs, but that's mainly because they are cheaper than Troys and KACs, and the ACOG is very durable.

I like carry handles and fixed LMT for irons only, but the DD would be fine also.

Don't care for BUIS with QD as I usually don't see the need to remove them.

afd77
12-12-11, 16:22
My favorites:

1. KAC Micro 200-600
2. Troy

rsilvers
12-12-11, 16:59
I've replaced all my KAC 600M's with 300M's. Why do you prefer the 600M? I never used the elevation adjustment. Seems like one more thing to break.

I also never use the elevation adjustment. I like the mechanism - it is just like the sight on an early one of Garand's designs. But the 300M may make more sense.

davidjinks
12-12-11, 17:08
Easy to deploy sights, simple adjustments and zeroing, low profile, solid design, very clear/crisp sight picture.

These are just my opinions of course.



I have this sort of dilemma is well. The KAC 600 seems to be a widely lauded BUIS, but why? The aperture seems so small that for fast acquisition it is not super great. Am I wrong? I have not found any good reviews on the BUIS itself, as I would like to see what various people have to say on it, not just that they like it and suggest other people to go with it.

rsilvers
12-12-11, 17:31
I have no use for any rear sight which is larger or weights more than the KAC 600M, and a bunch do.

Doc Glockster
08-30-13, 10:18
Okay, after months of experience with different sights I think I've picked a winner as far as fixed rear sights: the LaRue LT-103.

I know that when you use an RDS you're supposed to ignore the irons, BUT, for those of us who can't do that and have to have the RDS line up with the irons (and the dot be on top of the front post when lined up), the La Rue is a great rear sight that allows this. I've tried it on two carbines now with an Aimpoint T1 so it's not just a fluke. Other BUIS examples I've tried do not line up as well, at least in my experience.

I also like that the LaRue is quick detachable in case I decide to go with a folding rear to accomodate other optics like a TR24.

Just food for thought if that sort of thing is important to you.

While re-reading this thread, I refreshed my memory that I liked the configuration of the GG&G rear sight.

Anybody new to this thread have any experience with its durability?

Submariner
08-30-13, 11:20
Okay, after months of experience with different sights I think I've picked a winner as far as fixed rear sights: the LaRue LT-103.

Have you tried this with either the XS same-plane aperture or the CSAT aperture (also same plane)?

Ark1443
08-30-13, 11:21
Thread resurrection here I guess?

I personally prefer two backup sights, Daniel Defense A1.5, and magpul. I use a lower 1/3 cowitness with my aimpoints.

Doc Glockster
08-30-13, 11:52
Have you tried this with either the XS same-plane aperture or the CSAT aperture (also same plane)?

No I haven't.

I can't remember if I tried it with the LMT BUIS, either. I've got one in my parts box. I'll have to dig that one out and see.

Horsehide
08-30-13, 19:10
Fixed: DD
Folding: PRI

The Lance
08-31-13, 01:13
Magpul to my Aimpoint pro

WS6
08-31-13, 01:58
Question...does the DD 1.5 have the issues the Troy does with the aperatures?
Are the apertures same plane, if not...what?

Horsehide
08-31-13, 06:25
Question...does the DD 1.5 have the issues the Troy does with the aperatures?
Are the apertures same plane, if not...what?

No issues and apertures are same plane AFAIK. Bolt it on and forget about it. Works great in conjunction with a T1.

WS6
08-31-13, 06:47
No issues and apertures are same plane AFAIK. Bolt it on and forget about it. Works great in conjunction with a T1.

Thanks. Will run it with an exps3-0, though.

Horsehide
08-31-13, 07:48
Thanks. Will run it with an exps3-0, though.

That should not be an issue.

WS6
08-31-13, 07:58
That should not be an issue.

I don't like BUIS up with a T1, the viewing window just gets way too busy for MY taste. I'm transitioning slowly to all Eotech EXPS models. For me, they are just a much better optic all around.

K_K
08-31-13, 10:21
I run troy BUIS.

Hump66
08-31-13, 21:37
I like my Troy's. I'm going to try the KAC 600 on my next build, and the offsets on my SPR that's in progress.

texasmarine022003
08-31-13, 21:39
Wilson Combat BUIS with CSAT

SteveL
08-31-13, 22:09
Question...does the DD 1.5 have the issues the Troy does with the aperatures?
Are the apertures same plane, if not...what?

What is the issue with Troy apertures? Are they not on the same plane?

WS6
08-31-13, 23:17
What is the issue with Troy apertures? Are they not on the same plane?

From pages 2 and 3 of this thread:



I do run a lot of Troy sights and our unit employs 65 of them. But with our heavy use and the fact that we run them in the up position, we are finding that the aperture's are getting lose and don't stay positively locked and are easily knocked out of position just from having the rifle slung and banging on gear. They can be so slightly knocked out of position that you hardly notice without pressing on the aperture. But results can be scary when you shoot with them out of position. Definitely did not think of this possibility 4 years ago when we first got them.




It's hard to tell over time with the Troy sights how they used to feel unless if you have a new set next to a worn in set. But if you have both side by side it is very easy to tell what I am talking about in the video. A new set of Troy's really won't wiggle at all. They will have that positive sounding snap or lock. Used ones will feel mushy and there will be no "snap" or lock at all. They will just push into place.

Most people who buy and use them will have no issue because they just mount their sights, leave em down and rarely use them. However in the irons only class that I teach we use the Troy's as a primary sight and they get a lot of use. Guarantee numerous times in the class the sight will go out of alignment. It is so common that guys will check their sights constantly. As for a fix, I really haven't addressed that with the Troy sights, but I will say that I am doing a lot of chopped carry handles. Rugged as all heck and this issue of the aperture out of battery is a non issue.

So for myself on a battle or duty type rifle with a red dot where I don't need a low pro flip sight, I will go with a fixed type of sight and the chopped handle is my #1 choice.


Troy's are high quality. As mentioned they need blue loctite. My biggest gripe about the Troy is that the peep sights loosen up a bit over time and you have to be aware of the peep going into half cock.

I talk about this around the 3:20 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2e9z4xR8yA

As I have trained more, I have gone from running flip-ups in the front and rear, to only the rear, and now that I have transitioned over to Eotechs (from the smaller viewing window of the Aimpoint), I am probably going to run rear BUIS up 100% of the time, and it seems the Troy takes a dump, here. I want to make sure the Daniel Defense is g2g, at least, as much as I can from just asking others who have BTDT.

MrCleanOK
08-31-13, 23:41
As I have trained more, I have gone from running flip-ups in the front and rear, to only the rear, and now that I have transitioned over to Eotechs (from the smaller viewing window of the Aimpoint), I am probably going to run rear BUIS up 100% of the time, and it seems the Troy takes a dump, here. I want to make sure the Daniel Defense is g2g, at least, as much as I can from just asking others who have BTDT.

I used a DD A1.5 rear on the last deployment and it was bomb proof. Got banged around plenty and it was as solid as the first day I had it (plus some cosmetic wear). Put it behind a comp M4S.

Sent from my phone with my giant, uncoordinated sausage thumbs.

WS6
08-31-13, 23:51
I used a DD A1.5 rear on the last deployment and it was bomb proof. Got banged around plenty and it was as solid as the first day I had it (plus some cosmetic wear). Put it behind a comp M4S.

Sent from my phone with my giant, uncoordinated sausage thumbs.

Thanks. I've come a long ways from the guy I used to be with a 20" + ACOG and flip-ups to a 10.3" with a can or a 16" with FH and "BUIS up" and an Eotech.

Part of my personal evolution as I learned more.

I want a SOLID, DURABLE, (and preferably pretty and sleek :p ) fixed BUIS, now. Looks like I chose well.

Caduceus
08-31-13, 23:57
Haven't settled on a favorite front. I like match for the rear, but have a KAC on a build, with several others sitting in storage. Have to decide which I like batter

SteveL
09-01-13, 08:41
From pages 2 and 3 of this thread:

As I have trained more, I have gone from running flip-ups in the front and rear, to only the rear, and now that I have transitioned over to Eotechs (from the smaller viewing window of the Aimpoint), I am probably going to run rear BUIS up 100% of the time, and it seems the Troy takes a dump, here. I want to make sure the Daniel Defense is g2g, at least, as much as I can from just asking others who have BTDT.

Thanks. It's obvious I need to go back and read this entire thread.


Interesting you mention changing over to an Eotech as I'm about to change to one myself (EXPS3-0) and I've been toying with the idea of going to a set of fixed BUS (most likely DD) when I do.

WS6
09-01-13, 09:24
Thanks. It's obvious I need to go back and read this entire thread.


Interesting you mention changing over to an Eotech as I'm about to change to one myself (EXPS3-0) and I've been toying with the idea of going to a set of fixed BUS (most likely DD) when I do.

I ran a course with Kyle Lamb earlier this year using Troy flip-ups and an Aimpoint T1.

Our first day included zero verification at 100 yards. After our first group, Kyle Lamb instructed us to raise the front BUIS, if we ran it folded, and produce the dot in the same orientation to it shot after shot for the next group. I did so, as mine had been down, and I also adjusted 3 clicks right. My group had been "on" at 50, but was left a bit at 100. Those 3 clicks moved it the same amount right that it was off to the left. WAY more movement than 3 clicks should have. I put those 3 clicks for a few more back into it, and it was dead on the third group (apparently, I was actually hitting right, but the paralax for the first group made it seem left! Who knows if I was really "on at 50..."). Apparently, there IS paralax with an RDS, and it made my first group hit left. BUIS up, dot in the same location fixed that, and I not only over-adjusted my zero for that 2nd group, it was off in the opposite direction to start!

So...I began running FSB up. It also gave me a reference for the dot in unconventional positions, as well as away to roughly measure the amount of cant from unconventional positions against the orientation of the rest of the target area...if I can see the FSB in my sight picture, Im' not looking at a funky reflection on my shooting glasses. I did that once. Dot COM, kept blowing turf out of the ground. Yelled at. MADE SURE dot was COM. More turf came up. I don't know how I did it, it was a timed stage and I was shooting the required support-side broke-back mountain as Kyle calls it (aptly named position), and that was only the 2nd day I had shot that position. It was like when your rear-view mirror in a car is "flipped to dim" and you look through it at day-time or something. but the dot WAS COM! Turf...

Had my FSB been up, and I used it as a reference point, that embarrassing moment and threat to the turf would not have existed.

Well, I then started running the X300U in front of my FSB, and switched to the DD FSB because it was made for it, literally. Since I was never going to fold it, and it gave me more rail-space for my hand, and why bother with a folding component?

Now, I am running an Eotech EXPS 3-0. Why? Because 4/5 of the Delta guys were running one that I trained with. So I tried one. HOLY CRAP! It was like the visibility difference between driving a corvette and one of those "bubble-shaped" econo-cars. I could see all around, through, beside, above that optic! It was like a whole 'nother world opened up...and I am faster, now. Well, maybe not that extreme, but now my T1 feels like breathing through a coffee straw.

With the EOTech having a built-in lower 1/3 CW, I flipped my Troy up in the back...to try it. Using the Eo, it disappeared. Need it? Rotate your head forward a touch (if that makes sense?) and there your BUIS is! With that big window, it doesn't clutter it at all. With an Aimpoint, I don't think I would like it as much, and with a T1, it would suck, IMO.

That is the story of my evolution from an Aimpoint M4S with BUIS both down (turf-killer) to Eotech and fixed BUIS.

SteveL
09-01-13, 14:10
I ran a course with Kyle Lamb earlier this year using Troy flip-ups and an Aimpoint T1.

Our first day included zero verification at 100 yards. After our first group, Kyle Lamb instructed us to raise the front BUIS, if we ran it folded, and produce the dot in the same orientation to it shot after shot for the next group. I did so, as mine had been down, and I also adjusted 3 clicks right. My group had been "on" at 50, but was left a bit at 100. Those 3 clicks moved it the same amount right that it was off to the left. WAY more movement than 3 clicks should have. I put those 3 clicks for a few more back into it, and it was dead on the third group (apparently, I was actually hitting right, but the paralax for the first group made it seem left! Who knows if I was really "on at 50..."). Apparently, there IS paralax with an RDS, and it made my first group hit left. BUIS up, dot in the same location fixed that, and I not only over-adjusted my zero for that 2nd group, it was off in the opposite direction to start!

It's always been my understanding that a RDS has some degree of parallax despite what the manufacturers claim. You can even see it if you look through an Aimpoint or Eotech and move your head from side to side. The reticle will sort of float from side to side as you move your head. However, it sounds like Kyle's solution should work well to prevent the parallax from affecting your shooting.


So...I began running FSB up. It also gave me a reference for the dot in unconventional positions, as well as away to roughly measure the amount of cant from unconventional positions against the orientation of the rest of the target area...if I can see the FSB in my sight picture, I'm not looking at a funky reflection on my shooting glasses. I did that once. Dot COM, kept blowing turf out of the ground. Yelled at. MADE SURE dot was COM. More turf came up. I don't know how I did it, it was a timed stage and I was shooting the required support-side broke-back mountain as Kyle calls it (aptly named position), and that was only the 2nd day I had shot that position. It was like when your rear-view mirror in a car is "flipped to dim" and you look through it at day-time or something. but the dot WAS COM! Turf...

Had my FSB been up, and I used it as a reference point, that embarrassing moment and threat to the turf would not have existed.

I find this very interesting as well. I currently have Magpul BUS Gen 2 on my rifle. After I get the Eotech (which should be later this week) I plan to start running the gun with the BUS flipped up just to try it out and see how I feel about it. Kind of a trial run before I drop the money for a set of fixed sights.


Well, I then started running the X300U in front of my FSB, and switched to the DD FSB because it was made for it, literally. Since I was never going to fold it, and it gave me more rail-space for my hand, and why bother with a folding component?

Now, I am running an Eotech EXPS 3-0. Why? Because 4/5 of the Delta guys were running one that I trained with. So I tried one. HOLY CRAP! It was like the visibility difference between driving a corvette and one of those "bubble-shaped" econo-cars. I could see all around, through, beside, above that optic! It was like a whole 'nother world opened up...and I am faster, now. Well, maybe not that extreme, but now my T1 feels like breathing through a coffee straw.

When I was in the local shop looking at optics a few days ago I was blown away by the field of view through the Eotech. I didn't think the Aimpoint was bad at all, but I thought the Eotech was better. Like you, I also started with an Aimpoint M4S. I couldn't use an Eotech at the time due to astigmatism, but I had that fixed about six months ago so I can actually see the reticle of an Eotech now.

Honestly, I would still go with an Aimpoint if I was using a rifle on patrol or something simply due to battery life and the fact that it can be left on all the time. But when I really sat down and thought about it I realized that if I ever find myself in a gunfight it's going to be with a pistol so I don't feel that the battery life issue is something that really affects me.


With the EOTech having a built-in lower 1/3 CW, I flipped my Troy up in the back...to try it. Using the Eo, it disappeared. Need it? Rotate your head forward a touch (if that makes sense?) and there your BUIS is! With that big window, it doesn't clutter it at all. With an Aimpoint, I don't think I would like it as much, and with a T1, it would suck, IMO.

Makes perfect sense. It's that big window that has me really curious to try running my sights up (or replace them altogether with a fixed set) so I always have backup sights in place.


That is the story of my evolution from an Aimpoint M4S with BUIS both down (turf-killer) to Eotech and fixed BUIS.

I appreciate you relating your experience. I found it very helpful as it looks like I'm walking a similar path. I'll be attending my first rifle class in a couple of weeks and I'm very curious to see how the Eotech is going to work out for me in that environment.

Roklok
09-01-13, 16:54
Troy folding battle sight.

SteveL
09-01-13, 17:58
I'm also curious if anyone is using the Centurion Diopter sights (https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=C4sights.tpl&product_id=44). I've seen them mentioned once in this thread and the person that uses them thinks favorably of them. Has anyone else given them a try? I've always been a bit intrigued by them and I can't help but think they would give a great sight picture, but then again if that's the case why don't I read more about them? There was a thread about them a couple of years back on this board but it seems to have to disappeared for some reason.

WS6
09-01-13, 18:03
I'm also curious if anyone is using the Centurion Diopter sights (https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=C4sights.tpl&product_id=44). I've seen them mentioned once in this thread and the person that uses them thinks favorably of them. Has anyone else given them a try? I've always been a bit intrigued by them and I can't help but think they would give a great sight picture, but then again if that's the case why don't I read more about them? There was a thread about them a couple of years back on this board but it seems to have to disappeared for some reason.

I don't know about the rear sight, but I don't like the HK style fronts. Your eye tries to line up the "circles" and the "post in the middle" can become a competing priority when it should be the primary.

SteveL
09-01-13, 18:10
I don't know about the rear sight, but I don't like the HK style fronts. Your eye tries to line up the "circles" and the "post in the middle" can become a competing priority when it should be the primary.

I've seen that brought up before regarding the HK style Troy front sights. Some people hate them while for others it doesn't seem to make a difference.


I don't know why it is but I've always wanted to try out the diopters. Centurion seems well thought of with regard to their other products (their rails in particular), but you just don't see much about their sights. I've looked at them off and on a few times over the past few years, but I've never pulled the trigger on a set. I'll probably never be happy until I get a set and try them out. Even if I end up hating them at least then I'd know for myself one way or the other.


ETA: FWIW if I'm reading the Centurion diopter description correctly it looks like the elevation adjustment is made at the rear, so that might help negate the circle in circle issue.

Boba Fett v2
09-01-13, 20:19
A year ago I would've said Troy. But now I'm in love with the KAC.

SteveL
09-01-13, 20:23
A year ago I would've said Troy. But now I'm in love with the KAC.

Aren't you running the KAC offsets?

Talon167
09-01-13, 20:23
But now I'm in love with the KAC.

That just reads so wrong. :jester:


Anyway, I have some low-pro Troys on my rifle and like them a lot.

Boba Fett v2
09-01-13, 20:50
Aren't you running the KAC offsets?

Yes, and they're awesome. I'm assembling an 11.5" upper right now and the KAC vertical 600m BUIS is mounted. I want to switch it out for the KAC 300m rear BUIS though.


That just reads so wrong. :jest:

I know how it sounds, but my wife can attest to my love of sweet cherry pie. ;)

MontePR
09-01-13, 20:59
MBUS Gen2!!!
Because it's the only one I have.

HeavyDuty
09-02-13, 10:45
I'm also curious if anyone is using the Centurion Diopter sights (https://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=C4sights.tpl&product_id=44). I've seen them mentioned once in this thread and the person that uses them thinks favorably of them. Has anyone else given them a try? I've always been a bit intrigued by them and I can't help but think they would give a great sight picture, but then again if that's the case why don't I read more about them? There was a thread about them a couple of years back on this board but it seems to have to disappeared for some reason.

I've been running a set on my 9mm carbine for the last six months or so. This carbine is irons only, and I'd been wanting to try the Centurions for a few years.

It's still early days and not a whole lot of rounds since the changeover, but I'm happy so far - I've always liked the HK-style sight picture. I don't think I'd like these with an RDS, though.

Boba Fett v2
09-02-13, 19:02
I've used the C4 rear diopter sight and it worked great with my PRI flip-up front BUIS I had on a previous build. Very fast target acquisition with these irons! I recently sold it to a member here when I couldn't source the matching front sight. I wanted to build a dedicated upper using the Centurion C4 irons exclusively, but they've been discontinued. You're only going to find them in the used market now.

T2C
09-02-13, 20:37
Midwest Industries ERS.

SteveL
09-02-13, 20:41
I've been running a set on my 9mm carbine for the last six months or so. This carbine is irons only, and I'd been wanting to try the Centurions for a few years.

It's still early days and not a whole lot of rounds since the changeover, but I'm happy so far - I've always liked the HK-style sight picture. I don't think I'd like these with an RDS, though.


I've used the C4 rear diopter sight and it worked great with my PRI flip-up front BUIS I had on a previous build. Very fast target acquisition with these irons! I recently sold it to a member here when I couldn't source the matching front sight. I wanted to build a dedicated upper using the Centurion C4 irons exclusively, but they've been discontinued. You're only going to find them in the used market now.

Thanks for the responses. I had gathered from my searching and reading over on WEVO that they had become somewhat scarce, but I didn't realize they had been discontinued. Maybe that's a blessing in disguise for me. If I can't get a set then I can forget about them altogether and move on.

Doc Glockster
09-03-13, 09:46
UPDATE: The LMT rear sight (basically a chopped carry handle) allows you to put the red dot of the Aimpoint T1 right on the tip of the front sight post if you want.

To reiterate: a lot of back up rear sights don't let you do this. You have to "ignore" the fact that the dot doesn't center over the front sight post even when cowitnessing.

cctroupe11
09-03-13, 11:17
Our rear BUIS on our service rifles are Matech.

I like them, until they get worn out and a slight bump makes them flip up. But who knows how long that takes to actually happen, I just know a rifle I was issued to rifle qual back in the states had that problem.

Haven't had it with my current one, though.

WS6
09-03-13, 11:43
UPDATE: The LMT rear sight (basically a chopped carry handle) allows you to put the red dot of the Aimpoint T1 right on the tip of the front sight post if you want.

To reiterate: a lot of back up rear sights don't let you do this. You have to "ignore" the fact that the dot doesn't center over the front sight post even when cowitnessing.

I have never observed this and do not understand. If you are looking through the irons, and you have a "parallax free" RDS, and both are CORRECTLY zeroed, the dot WILL be bisected by the tip of the FSP.

Doc Glockster
09-03-13, 12:46
I have never observed this and do not understand. If you are looking through the irons, and you have a "parallax free" RDS, and both are CORRECTLY zeroed, the dot WILL be bisected by the tip of the FSP.

In theory, but my rifle is zeroed and so is my RDS, and I have personally observed back up rear sights that do not allow you to put the dot on the fron post while looking through the peep.

I'll concede that it may be the way I get my cheekweld and not in the actual sight itself, but I mention it because it could be important to some people.

WS6
09-03-13, 13:04
In theory, but my rifle is zeroed and so is my RDS, and I have personally observed back up rear sights that do not allow you to put the dot on the fron post while looking through the peep.

I'll concede that it may be the way I get my cheekweld and not in the actual sight itself, but I mention it because it could be important to some people.

Are you trying this "across the room", or at 50+ yards? The slight parallax inherent to all optics at close range will cause this, perhaps, depending on your cheek-weld.

Otherwise, it seems quite impossible to me that your BUIS is zeroed, and looking through it correctly, you do NOT also see your correctly zeroed RDS. Either parallax is getting you at across-the-room distances, or something isn't zeroed.

ASH556
09-03-13, 13:06
I'll concede that it may be the way I get my cheekweld and not in the actual sight itself, but I mention it because it could be important to some people.

This is what is happening. It's the only thing that physically "can" happen to allow what you're describing. However, your contention that a certain make of sight is better for co-witnessing is hogwash. You just somehow maintained a more consistent cheekweld when using the LMT sight.

Doc Glockster
09-03-13, 13:15
This is what is happening. It's the only thing that physically "can" happen to allow what you're describing. However, your contention that a certain make of sight is better for co-witnessing is hogwash. You just somehow maintained a more consistent cheekweld when using the LMT sight.

All I know is that with some brands of fixed back up sights like the DD 1.5 I cannot get the dot to sit on top of the front sight post in a cowitness no matter what I do.

Slippers
09-03-13, 13:32
All I know is that with some brands of fixed back up sights like the DD 1.5 I cannot get the dot to sit on top of the front sight post in a cowitness no matter what I do.

Perhaps this is due to the DD A1.5 not having elevation adjustment, whereas the LMT does.

Hopefully you're not dialing elevation on your rear sight to get the dot to sit on top of your front post, unless you simply don't care about the distance calibration of the elevation drum on your LMT rear sight.

What I mean by this is that if your red dot is zero'd at 200 yards, and you have to crank the LMT rear sight to 800 yards to get the dot to sit on your front sight post, you're doing it wrong. You should be setting the LMT rear sight to 200 yards, then adjusting the front sight post until the red dot is co-witnessed properly.

Doc Glockster
09-03-13, 13:44
I'm not messing with any elevation.

Slippers
09-03-13, 13:50
I'm not messing with any elevation.

Well, interestingly enough, I have owned and used the LMT rear sight, along with magpul gen 1 and 2, Troy, and KAC 200-600. All of them had no trouble co-witnessing with my Aimpoint H1 in an ADM mount.

If you zero your red dot and your irons separately, perhaps you simply have a completely different sight picture between the two when using non-LMT rear sights, and when you try to co-witness, they don't match up.

Fasstasheck
09-03-13, 14:39
Noted durability issues aside from the mounting bolt, I particularly like the MaTechs. Maybe it's my .mil experience with them, but they work and they're what I know. Plus, I've been told by many a supply Sgt to "make the disappear".

Freelance
09-03-13, 14:48
My eyes seem to like the Troy DOA (Di-Optic Aperature,) folding sights. Pricey but I feel they are the hands down best for my old eyes.

cctroupe11
09-03-13, 14:51
Noted durability issues aside from the mounting bolt, I particularly like the MaTechs. Maybe it's my .mil experience with them, but they work and they're what I know. Plus, I've been told by many a supply Sgt to "make the disappear".

I need to meet your supply sgt. Our is stingy as ****. We don't even get shit we need sometimes.

Doc Glockster
09-03-13, 15:11
Has anybody gotten their hands on the MBUS® Pro - Magpul® Back-Up Sight – Rear and had a chance to really test it and use/abuse it yet?

(Last I heard they were coming out anytime. I haven't kept up with them since). :D

SteveL
09-03-13, 15:32
Has anybody gotten their hands on the MBUS® Pro - Magpul® Back-Up Sight – Rear and had a chance to really test it and use/abuse it yet?

(Last I heard they were coming out anytime. I haven't kept up with them since). :D

To the best of my knowledge they haven't been released yet. That's not to say there aren't some in the wild for T&E though.

decodeddiesel
09-03-13, 18:18
Just got an email from Magpul saying these are available. It looks like a pretty cool design, I will admit.

GUNFUN
09-03-13, 19:59
LMT......Quality

Cmm46
09-03-13, 20:19
I have a YHM flip up rear site and Ive been really happy with it. Its prob 5 years old now.

chadb
09-05-13, 10:20
I bought a troy DOA sight and it works great for me

ROK
09-05-13, 12:51
I purchased a Hahn Precision BUIS a while back. Low profile and simple. No problems as yet.
http://shop.hahn-precision.com//BUIS-Rear-ASAB0506.htm

http://shop.hahn-precision.com/images/ASAB0506-02.jpg

HeavyDuty
09-05-13, 14:17
I purchased a Hahn Precision BUIS a while back. Low profile and simple. No problems as yet.
http://shop.hahn-precision.com//BUIS-Rear-ASAB0506.htm

http://shop.hahn-precision.com/images/ASAB0506-02.jpg

I've been using Hahns on several carbines for a few years now and like them as much now as I did when I first bought them. Great sights!

SteveL
09-10-13, 23:29
FWIW I sent an email to Centurion a few days ago asking when the diopter sights will become available again. I received a response today that says they no longer sell them.

What I'm currently running are Gen 2 MBUS. They seem to work well enough. In order to get sighted in properly I had to shift the rear sight quite a bit to the left, but I understand that just happens on some guns. My OCD doesn't like it being off center, but I'll just have to live with it. I don't know why, but a lot of the time when I'm sighting through my irons it looks like the left side of the rear aperture is flat on the left side instead of round. When I hold the rifle up and look through the rear sight with good light shining through I can see it's perfectly round, so I don't know what's causing me to see it like that. It doesn't seem to affect my shooting but it's irritating. I'm debating trying something different in the near future, but I haven't decided if I want to stay with folders or go fixed. If I stay with folders I'll try the new Magpuls. If I go fixed then it'll probably be a DD A1.5 set.

WS6
09-11-13, 00:06
FWIW I sent an email to Centurion a few days ago asking when the diopter sights will become available again. I received a response today that says they no longer sell them.

What I'm currently running are Gen 2 MBUS. They seem to work well enough. In order to get sighted in properly I had to shift the rear sight quite a bit to the left, but I understand that just happens on some guns. My OCD doesn't like it being off center, but I'll just have to live with it. I don't know why, but a lot of the time when I'm sighting through my irons it looks like the left side of the rear aperture is flat on the left side instead of round. When I hold the rifle up and look through the rear sight with good light shining through I can see it's perfectly round, so I don't know what's causing me to see it like that. It doesn't seem to affect my shooting but it's irritating. I'm debating trying something different in the near future, but I haven't decided if I want to stay with folders or go fixed. If I stay with folders I'll try the new Magpuls. If I go fixed then it'll probably be a DD A1.5 set.

One thing that annoyed me about the DD A1.5 that caused me to buy the Magpul Pro rear BUIS is that it is NOT same-plane aperture.

I did replace the aperture with one from Blackhawk!, but I just don't feel good about it no-matter how "pretty" it looks. It was the only same-plane A2 style that had aperture openings near mil-spec size.

On an SBR, you may get well over 5 MOA vertical shift using a regular A2 aperture.

I bought the MBUS Pro because (I don't have it yet, so this is just what I read...):

-Dual aperture arrangement with same-plane.
-Spring/detent keeps it up, and apertures in-place...if it gets a hard slam, it may fold (although Magpul states it passed a 6-axis drop est on a loaded out M4 without folding...), but won't break. I think of it like the mirrors on a car.
-Adjustment wheel is not easily turned, and is not "in the way" like A2 style wheels.
-Does not have a useless elevation adjustment.
-Same weight as the DD.
-I feel like if what I read above is correct, it can be run "BUIS up" 100% of the time if you want to with zero detriment points for that usage.

WS6
09-11-13, 00:08
I've been using Hahns on several carbines for a few years now and like them as much now as I did when I first bought them. Great sights!

I like the concept of the Hahn, but I cannot get over the set-screws. I don't like it. Why? Because I feel like SOMETHING needs to press against the face of a 1913 rail to keep something from creeping under recoil. All of my LaRue and Bobro mounts clamp very solid to the rail...and yet when I remove them,there is wear on the foot where it contacts the face of the 1913 rail under recoil, telling me that they WOULD creep if not for that interface.

As I understand it, nylon tip screws press DOWN on the TOP of the rail segment. There is nothing then but friction to keep fore-aft movement at bay, and I want a solid physical interference.

rapomstage3
09-11-13, 07:34
Kac 600 micro. Shocking I know.

SteveL
09-11-13, 10:09
One thing that annoyed me about the DD A1.5 that caused me to buy the Magpul Pro rear BUIS is that it is NOT same-plane aperture.

I did replace the aperture with one from Blackhawk!, but I just don't feel good about it no-matter how "pretty" it looks. It was the only same-plane A2 style that had aperture openings near mil-spec size.

On an SBR, you may get well over 5 MOA vertical shift using a regular A2 aperture.

I bought the MBUS Pro because (I don't have it yet, so this is just what I read...):

-Dual aperture arrangement with same-plane.
-Spring/detent keeps it up, and apertures in-place...if it gets a hard slam, it may fold (although Magpul states it passed a 6-axis drop est on a loaded out M4 without folding...), but won't break. I think of it like the mirrors on a car.
-Adjustment wheel is not easily turned, and is not "in the way" like A2 style wheels.
-Does not have a useless elevation adjustment.
-Same weight as the DD.
-I feel like if what I read above is correct, it can be run "BUIS up" 100% of the time if you want to with zero detriment points for that usage.

I will admit I'm not a fan of Blackhawk! in general, but what is it about their same plane sight that you don't like?

WS6
09-11-13, 10:21
I will admit I'm not a fan of Blackhawk! in general, but what is it about their same plane sight that you don't like?

The name on the packaging. I have trust issues and have not shot with it, yet.

SteveL
09-11-13, 10:36
The name on the packaging. I have trust issues and have not shot with it, yet.

I can understand that. Their name isn't closely associated with high quality from what I've seen.

Did you consider the XS same plane aperture at all?


I would still be curious to hear your thoughts after trying out the Blackhawk aperture.

MajorLonghorn
09-11-13, 10:43
These:

http://troyind.com/%20/back-up-iron-sights/folding/micro-sets/troy-battlesight-set-micro-doa-tritium

WS6
09-11-13, 10:46
I can understand that. Their name isn't closely associated with high quality from what I've seen.

Did you consider the XS same plane aperture at all?


I would still be curious to hear your thoughts after trying out the Blackhawk aperture.

It should arrive tomorrow. Fit/finish of the Blackhawk is fine. Live fire is needed to really test it, or at least zero the irons to the dot and flip apertures, that would work okay for quick/dirty.

SteveL
09-11-13, 13:20
It should arrive tomorrow. Fit/finish of the Blackhawk is fine. Live fire is needed to really test it, or at least zero the irons to the dot and flip apertures, that would work okay for quick/dirty.

Good deal. Please post back here when you've had a chance to try out the new Magpuls.

Amicus
09-13-13, 16:36
I am really impressed with how low the rear MBUS Pro is. A while ago I demo'd carving out a notch to accommodate a short eye relief ACOG.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=66462

Just for S&Gs, I swapped the notched Brownells sight for the MBUS Pro, and it fit without any modification. There is barely enough room between the sight and the rear of the ACOG to do this -- about the width of a business card -- but it will fit without benefit of a Dremel tool.

This is not because the sight is so low as to completely fit beneath the ACOG, but because of the combination of the low sight and its geometry. I suspect that Magpul decided to make the sight from steel to permit strength without the bulk of aluminum. I'll have to compare the weights of some other BUIS to see whether the MBUS Pro is heavier, and by how much. (The rear MBUS Pro is 52 grams or 1.85 oz; the front is 44 grams or 1.5 oz.)

WS6
09-14-13, 04:23
How "positive" is the windage adjustment if the KAC micro 300m unit? Accidentally adjustable?


How positively is the stalk retained in the up or down position?

Anyone know what metal/finish they are?