View Full Version : What is with people and the "my friend says..." nonsense?
I first encountered this when I worked as a salesperson in a gun/army surplus/police supply store. Almost daily we would have a customer come in, look in the case, ask what we suggested, and after we wasted hours with the guy he would finally say "well, my sister's husband's uncle is a cop, and he said I should buy an xyz so I'm going to go with that." I always wondered if these people also bought the same car, pens, sunglasses, and underwear (ok, not really) as their sister's husband's uncle. Especially since after dealing with LE customers for 3 years it became evident real quick that most cops couldn't tell you a revolver from a semi-auto, and that their entire firearms knowledge was learned in the 15 minutes at the academy they spent on shooting.
Lately, the internet version seems to be the alleged "Operator" friend. The poster can rarely define what an "Operator" is, what the alleged "Operator" operates, or in fact what makes this friend qualified in ANY way to evaluate the relative merits of the offerings available on the commercial AR market. In fact, most often it seems that the "Operator" was issue only one brand of firearm, and from that either grew to love or hate that brand, and has since based their entire knowledge on the system on that one issued firearm.
This is not to say that there are not exceptions. Obviously the vast majority of the LE and "Operator" membership here are the exception as they have chosen to take the time to obtain, and share, actual qualified and quantified knowledge. But those same members know exactly what I'm talking about.
If you're wondering what prompted this post, go here (http://floridashootersnetwork.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=175519#175519). Yes, I was an ass to the guy, but I was an ass for a reason. And in the end, rather than explain what it is that he was alluding to he instead gets offended, tosses up his hands, and says "nevermind". Makes me wonder if perhaps what the "Operator" in question actually operates is a sewing machine, and if he can tell me if I'm better off with a Singer or a Kenmore.:p
Someone once said that converts are always the most devout practitioners and believers of any religion. This situation kind of reminds me of that. To most LE and "Operators", guns are a tool, they have little to no say in what tool they are issued, it costs them NO money, and they have little interest in learning any of the details of that tool beyond what the powers that be deem appropriate to teach them. On the other hand, a dedicated non-LE, non-Operator is much more likely to seek out the knowledge required to make a purchase with their own hard-earned money. I'd much rather take the advice of that guy than the guy that has never even fired a non-issued weapon.
Well.. According to this guy I know.. the reason posters do it.. is actually very simple
Cool by association... that's it..
Funny.. I spent over 20 yrs working for Uncle Sammy both full and part time.. and in all those years.. I never "MET" any serious Operators..
It always amazes me how guys who have never served a day in uniform, are lucky enough to know so many SEAL's or Green Beret's,etc..
And since THEY used Brand A.. it must be good..
Hell
The first 7-10 yrs of my career.. I never even knew what problems could be caused by loose carrier key's..But they did teach me to line up my gas rings to solve all my malfuctions.......;)
You have to learn to ignore people more.. life is a lot more pleasant that way...:cool:
aloharover
09-14-07, 20:39
This is not to say that there are not exceptions. Obviously the vast majority of the LE and "Operator" membership here are the exception as they have chosen to take the time to obtain, and share, actual qualified and quantified knowledge. But those same members know exactly what I'm talking about.
Aren't operators the guys that work the special reaction team at the mall?
Great post over on FL by the way. Good info.
Thought I am not sure I agree with hitting a human sized target with a carbine out to at least 100m. At least 300 is how we trained :D
I also never realised that only FN supplied weapons to the military (other person not you) lol
Pete
Don Robison
09-14-07, 20:47
I wouldn't worry about it Rob. FSN=drama much of the time. I pop in every now and then, but get tired of reading the "as good as" threads and soon move on to more substantial threads here and elsewhere.
To most LE and "Operators", guns are a tool, they have little to no say in what tool they are issued, it costs them NO money, and they have little interest in learning any of the details of that tool beyond what the powers that be deem appropriate to teach them
I agree with the first three parts of that, but the details of the tools "operators" use are something they will be very familiar with. You'd be hard pressed to find a guy I work with with little interest in his weapons and equipment in general. Most all of them have mastered their function and know the strengths and weaknesses of them very well.
Kind of funny, a guy who is neither Law Enforcement or a part of a specialized military unit telling the world how they think. I don't even think you're that far off the mark, and you're one of the people out there that "get it" when it comes to the need for training and self-defense, but you're kind of out of your lane on that one.
As far as the CBA thing...you would think people would have known by now that doesn't work. There are too many knowledgeable individuals out there on the internet, it simply doesn't work. However, on some sites like ARF.com, Glocktalk, HKPro, etc. you get the loonies in droves who hate to find out they bought a dog, or that Seal Team Delta Force Recon doesn't use their SW Sigma, etc. There is strength in numbers with these kinds, but luckily you always have the option of going somewhere less fanatical and erroneous.
If I had a dolllar every time someone on HKPro said US SOF uses the MK23 and that's it, I could retire rich.
LoL the other douchebag quit when backed in a corner!:D
LE and "Operators", guns are a tool, they have little to no say in what tool they are issued, it costs them NO money, and they have little interest in learning any of the details of that tool beyond what the powers that be deem appropriate to teach them.
But it just so happens that tool is one of the most popular Assault Weapon in the world. A weapon that has entire Forums dedicated to it. Like here. When you carry an AR for 22+ years you cant help but learn a lot more then what people tell you. I have never been around an Operator that didn't want to know the inner workings of their primary weapon.
Not arguing, you make a very valid and interesting point. But I think what you describe pertains to the masses. Such as a PVT in the Infantry. I don't know what or if there is any real definition Operator.
The definition I do hear the most to describe an Operator. A Member of the Military who volunteers x3 to serve in a SO unit. A unit that required him to pass some form of qualification school or exercise. He has also been serving in said unit for close to or more then ten years.
Anyone who fits that description has a whole lot of interest in the primary fighting tool they carry. They also do have a say in what is issued. More times then most people think. If not directly their input is listened to. The AR in its many different forms is still around because the majority of operators don't want anything else now. Hell, just look at some of the tools that have been offered. What ever happened to the Gas Piston hype. Reading the Internet Forums you would think Operators were screaming for it. No, we were screaming give it more time.
I believe several problems not seen on The Discovery Channel are now being addressed. These problems were discovered after it's limited issue for field testing. If we would of listened to places like xxxxxxxx and replaced all of the Army's uppers with the 416..................Oh S#*t comes to mind.
Operators often have a choice of different Weapons to use. They are used but for a specific situation or mission requirements. For every day comfort, reliability and ease of use. He is going to pull the AR out of the box.
We are talking about the AR. It's not a complicated tool to begin with. It's not that an Operator has little interest in learning about the AR. It's Operators see it from a much different perspective. It's a hands on perspective.
You just don't see many threads about how effective the M4 is at 300M. But Operators talk about it all the time. You will see plenty of threads discussing the release date for xxxxxxx industries Foliage Green line of AR Accessories thou.
I ordered an FAL this year. I knew nothing about them. In one week of research I was running with the best of them over at the FAL Files. I did have an advantage. I knew what was important because I shot plenty of 308 before. Just wasn't with an FAL. But a shooter is pretty much going to have the same experience firing 308 thru a 16" Barrel. Be it attached to an AR or FAL.
I should point out that when I use the term "Operator" I'm using it in the same sense that far too many others do; to describe someone (anyone?) in the military. My impression of most people with an "Operator" friend is that they have a friend who was a radio operator in the rear somewhere and who has talked at length about all about the problems the DI M4 has from reading that one article in the Army Times and from speaking to the many "Delta Friends" that he has.
On a side note, it seems that most "Operator Friends" in turn have "Delta Friends" that they get all the good intel from.
Which I guess is part of my point.
"Operator" has become quite the buzzword of late. Used mostly, it would seem, by people (like me :D ) that have no idea what it means.
Misc Ex-Member
09-14-07, 23:09
..........
I'm a KC-10 boom operator, so now you can say that you know 2 real "operators". :D
I used to operate fire trucks so I am now an "ex-operator" cool.:D
I have been operating machinery for 20 or so years now and operate a forklift rather regularly, how's that?? I guess that makes me an "experienced operator".
John_Wayne777
09-15-07, 01:21
Operators answer phones.
Officers, Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Agents...those are the guys that kick a$$.
It does seem like everybody on the internet with a silly opinion knows a guy who was some sort of snake eater doing "black ops" or something, but such is life. Just like there are millions more Vietnam vets out there than there are people who actually served in Nam....
Thankfully I am immune to the "cool by association" disease. I realized long ago that I am not cool, and will never be cool....EVER. And no amount of weapons instruction from a former SBS vet, or a DEVGRU SEAL, or a guy like Larry Vickers or Ken Hackathorn, or no amount of time pulling the trigger beside SWAT guys or SF soldiers or Blackwater contractors is ever going to make me cool.
I'll still just be the same uncool dude I have always been...but I might just come away with a slightly better understanding of what the world looks like through the eyes of the guys who have to wear the "cool" stuff and shoot the "cool" weapons to stay alive.
That's good enough for me.
And hell, every now and then you get to buy one of the cool real life HSLD types dinner and get to listen to stories that most other people don't get to hear. It's amazing just how much stuff a guy like that is willing to teach you for the price of some decent seafood.
This is the only operator I can think of:
http://i9.tinypic.com/4pebyg9
I gave up on helping the know-it-all types described in the above replies. Let them buy all the tactical black SpecOps/Tapco crap they want, and their Wolf ammo too. That was the main reason I left one famous board and migrated towards Grant's old board years ago. I think its probably better that if those "Friend of operator" types are going to be armed, that they are armed with crap.
Which I guess is part of my point.
"Operator" has become quite the buzzword of late. Used mostly, it would seem, by people (like me :D ) that have no idea what it means.
It was originally used to identify a person role or status in a Unit. Not for the purpose of who is a puke and who isn't. It was required just to make things run smooth.
You have many of the support personnel who are assigned there by big Army. Then you have the people they support. Volunteers who attended some type of try out or qualification course and were selected to work there.
IMO, support people probably came up with Operator. It's a simple and easy word to let others know they work in a support capacity. "I'm assigned to xxxxx of the xxxxxx but I'm not an Operator. Believe it or not many of the support guys are very carefull as not to give the wrong impression.
Just a convenient term that was picked up by the Armchair warriors. Another word once commonly used to identify yourself or others. Now it's one of those words that make the people it once identified to cring or look away in embarrassment. I think the LEO Community experiences a little of this with SWAT. Thou SWAT seems to be creeping back in.
I don't think I ever heard anyone in SF say they were a Green Beret. Why, because it's what the MSN and Hollywood picked up and ran with. It's a word associated with a 5'3" Italian running around with a Bandanna and a Compound Bow that shoots exploding Arrows.
If the Duke was still around he would of put the Boots to Sly a long time ago. Only then would the Beat Downs begin:D
HINT:
M4Guru
Industry Professional
I dont want to be an ass, but he gave the descriptive text of what the .soc description is for that term.
A lot of people dont understand that - and what it REALLY means. It now has been adopted to denote a shooter in a Tier 1 unit (not just the initial unit).
Problem is the term is getting used way to often to refer to people who dont fall into that segment - and it gets confused.
Let me first say that I have never been in LE or have I ever been in the military, but I would to thank all of you who have so freely put yourselves in harms way to protect my family and way of life. Your courage and patriotism is what makes this country great.
I have been on a quest to purchase my first AR and have got the most useful information here. The people here are not bound by useless marketing rhetoric. I tried to ask around locally but was met with "man I just go with what they issue"
or "these are on sale".
So thank you for the time you spend sharing useful information with people like me who I know must be irritating. I have been taught that to get the right answer you have to ask the right person:D . Tim
HINT:
M4Guru
Industry Professional
I don't want to be an ass, but he gave the descriptive text of what the .soc description is for that term.
A lot of people don't understand that - and what it REALLY means. It now has been adopted to denote a shooter in a Tier 1 unit (not just the initial unit).
Problem is the term is getting used way to often to refer to people who don't fall into that segment - and it gets confused.
That last part is what I was trying to say. Yes it started in Tier one. But was quickly picked up by other units. The first time I head it used was from the support personnel. Like I said, they used it to easily describe their position. Personally I hate the word. Right before I retired a lot of the new guys were using that word. Myself and others were always quick to educate them "we are not FU^*#ING Operators.
What Rob is saying is annoying and I see it all the time. What many Civy's do not know is that just because someone was in the Military or is LE, doesn't mean they know ANYTHING about weapon or what makes a weapon quality.
My other favorite thing is when I get someone that just bought an AR and has all of 500rds through it and tell's me that I don't know what I am talking about. I do this (build guns) for a living. Day in and day out, I am assembling AR's from the ground up. This guy has never even taken his bolt out of his carrier. :rolleyes:
C4
KintlaLake
09-15-07, 14:05
My other favorite thing is when I get someone that just bought an AR and has all of 500rds through it and tell's me that I don't know what I am talking about. ... This guy has never even taken his bolt out of his carrier. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
Um, it was 560 rounds, Grant, not 500.
:D
:rolleyes:
Um, it was 560 rounds, Grant, not 500.
:D
LOL, sorry thought you only had 500 through the gun. :D
C4
Here's the two closest I've been to real "operators"/SEALs/SF (and I'm pretty sure my experience is typical):
1. Knew one guy who claimed to be a SEAL. Turned out he was a famous faker, even had his name in the Hall of Shame.
2. Growing up in Virginia Beach, I lived next door to a guy who was very fit, very cut, and would be gone for months on end (I'd mow their lawn). I knew he was in the Navy. His wife let it slip to my mom that he was in "special Navy operations."
Thats as close as I've been.
KintlaLake
09-15-07, 14:55
LOL, sorry thought you only had 500 through the gun. :D
:D
Remember, y'all volunteered to be in customer service. :p
And most of us professional customers who've been exposed to animal husbandry know that we usually do get serviced...present company excepted, of course. ;)
I agree with the first three parts of that, but the details of the tools "operators" use are something they will be very familiar with. You'd be hard pressed to find a guy I work with with little interest in his weapons and equipment in general. Most all of them have mastered their function and know the strengths and weaknesses of them very well.
Kind of funny, a guy who is neither Law Enforcement or a part of a specialized military unit telling the world how they think. I don't even think you're that far off the mark, and you're one of the people out there that "get it" when it comes to the need for training and self-defense, but you're kind of out of your lane on that one.
Well said.
I had a long reply written up to the original post, but I deleted it as your reply is much nicer than mine, though it was the same general gist.
My favorite is when someone starts a review for a piece of Gear with "I just got this yesterday":D
They had their mind made up before you took all the time to help them. They were hoping you'd agree. You didn't and proceeded to give differing advice from what they'd hoped you would.
Therefore they need to ratify what they know will be looked upon as a poor decision by you...
So they offer up some fictitious person, or embellishment of an actual person they know, who will be viewed as having superior judgement to you. Making your recommendations 2nd priority, and allowing them to save face.
People often ask my opinion on guns & ammo in real life. I tell them what I know, and what I think.
I then proceed to tell them that I am not them, and that they need to decide for themselves. I give them an "out" so I don't need to hear about their Navy SEAL uncle, or police chief cousin or whatever....:D
Just because I prefer a 1911 as my bedside gun, I would not recommend one to a single mom who fears a bump in the night. If she scoffs at my recommendation of a .38 Special with +p rounds sold at X location, because some cop relative of hers told her to get a Glock. Then I say, "Glocks work too". :D Good luck with that.
I know a couple people who have the creds to be called "operators". Sometimes their ignorance of some basic things having to do with guns amazes me. However, some of their tactics and techniques discussions are truly on the spot from what I know and have been taught.
A lot of folks who drive a gun for a living know this stuff inside and out. Many don't....
I like listening and learning from those who do know, and I rarely find those folks at the gunshop. :D
They had their mind made up before you took all the time to help them. They were hoping you'd agree. You didn't and proceeded to give differing advice from what they'd hoped you would.
Therefore they need to ratify what they know will be looked upon as a poor decision by you...
So they offer up some fictitious person, or embellishment of an actual person they know, who will be viewed as having superior judgement to you. Making your recommendations 2nd priority, and allowing them to save face.
People often ask my opinion on guns & ammo in real life. I tell them what I know, and what I think.
I then proceed to tell them that I am not them, and that they need to decide for themselves. I give them an "out" so I don't need to hear about their Navy SEAL uncle, or police chief cousin or whatever.... :D
I'm brand new to the M4 world. I can barely spell "carbine"... Five minutes ago I didn't know what FDE or OD stood for.
IMHO, Shivan, good analysis and a good approach. I appreciate it when someone gives me facts and then gives me enough credit for having a brain to figure out which way to go with that info...
I'm brand new to the M4 world. I can barely spell "carbine"... Five minutes ago I didn't know what FDE or OD stood for.
IMHO, Shivan, good analysis and a good approach. I appreciate it when someone gives me facts and then gives me enough credit for having a brain to figure out which way to go with that info...
I tend to like new members like yourself (slate is clean). They have not yet been corrupted by TOS or any of the other window licking forums out there.
C4
I'm tired of this too. I've got this from both ends. I know what I want when I go into the gun store and I don't offer unsolicited advice to anybody. I was in there the other day looking for another Glock only to have the 18 year old clerk tell me what a piece of shit 9mm was and that I should get a 10mm or .45GAP Glock or some shit, I'm sure because some douche in a gun rag said it was the shit. I kindly explain to him that I'm plenty comfortable with the 9mm and that he doesn't know who I am what I have done and he needs to mind his own business.
I was also in uniform in a local gun store the other day looking at this guys huge collection of antique military rifles (nice collection by the way). He tells me that they are also making AR's and that some of the guys at my PD have bought them already. Once again, I kindly tell him that I'm all set on AR's and I don't need one of his. He proceeds to tell me that whatever I have will never be as good as what he makes. I just smile and nod and walk out. Once again he doesn't know me or what I run. This the the same guy's rifle that took a shit on two of our guys at the range during a school the other day.
My favorite is the citizen who keep staring my holster when I'm sitting somewhere minding my own business trying to eat and he asks what kind of pistol I have. I usually tell them and go back to my business and I get the old 45 is better you need to dump that plastic 9mm etc. Once again mind your own business.
Why is it that everybody knows you business better than you do?
and speaking of operators.... a couple of years ago I was attending an anti-terrorism conference in Norfolk and had the honor of being seating with a table of plank owners from ST-2. One of them was Rudy Boesch.
Robb Jensen
09-15-07, 23:00
and speaking of operators.... a couple of years ago I was attending an anti-terrorism conference in Norfolk and had the honor of being seating with a table of plank owners from ST-2. One of them was Rudy Boesch.
Damn cool. I'd be honored as I'm sure you were.
and speaking of operators.... a couple of years ago I was attending an anti-terrorism conference in Norfolk and had the honor of being seating with a table of plank owners from ST-2. One of them was Rudy Boesch.
Strange, that guy on the left looks somehow familiear.:D
QuietShootr
09-16-07, 10:05
I have now reached enlightenment.
I quit arguing with people on the net a while back.
The Super Duper Megaforce Commandos are mostly incapable of admitting that they could be wrong about ANYTHING, (one of our well-known IPs here is a glaring exception to that rule, and is a beacon of rationality in a sea of self-aggrandizing pricks), and aren't going to listen to a thing I have to say anyway, so why get into it with them. They're general experts on everything from guns to Shakespeare to pussy.
The other guys who think (please select one or more of the following: their DPMS is just as good as, who needs firearms training anyway, why would you own more than ten magazines, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam) don't want to learn, they just want somebody to stroke their e-dick for being smart enough to buy a DPMS, 'cuz everybody knows Colts are a waste of money.
Fuck it, you know? I listen to people whom I evaluate as knowing what they're talking about, and ignore the ones who don't. Nobody made me the Internet police, and I'm not getting paid to educate morons. If someone has a question, I'll try to help if they actually want help, and if I have a question, I know who to ask. Other than that, I relax, have a Guinness, and let 'em go. Life is so much more pleasant when you're not continually embroiled in dick-waving contests.
I know what you mean QS. I've kind of reached the same point, but I do have lapses.:eek:
I've tried, recently, to just stick to compiling what information I can into what I hope are informative threads. It's just sometimes the ignorance gets to me. Just today someone hit on a pet peeve of mine with the "Colt takedown pins are the wrong size so you can't use other uppers with them" nonsense.
aloharover
09-16-07, 14:08
I spent 22 years in the Infantry. I tried SFAS and didn't make it. While in Iraq we worked closely with both Army, Navy, and OGA 'special' types. As a civilian I spent over a year doing some work for SOCOM at MacDill.
Never in all that time did I ever hear or see the term operator used, except as RTO.
But it sure does seem to have exploded on the internet, advertising, and in most gun rags. It's the over weight, out of shape gun writer using the term that really brings a chuckle. I guess if the term isn't used in relation to a product then the product isn't worth anything.:D
aloharover
09-16-07, 14:09
Just today someone hit on a pet peeve of mine with the "Colt takedown pins are the wrong size so you can't use other uppers with them" nonsense.
have you seen the competitor that claims that the oversized holes are Colt's attempt at covering up manufacturing defects?
lmao
I know what you mean QS. I've kind of reached the same point, but I do have lapses.:eek:
It's just sometimes the ignorance gets to me.
I don't think it's ignorance, it's more their arrogance. The facts have been given to them, they just don't want to accept them.
Living in a town that must be on the Navy SEALs retirement brochure and having a CLEET center here as well, I get to hear more than the usual share of "my friend says". I'm trying real hard to just listen, sort out what I might use, test it for myself and keep my mouth shut. I'm nobody to be giving advice anyway.
Crap. 25 years in the military, almost to the day, and I have just recently learned how to lube (and configure) the AR-system correctly. As poorly as I've treated my guns, it's amazing they've run as good as they have.
Recently got into an on-line peeing match (I know, I shouldn't get riled up by it) by a 35 year old guy who had never shot or even handled a real weapon, but wanted to become a weapons "expert," making the natural transition from airsoft to teaching/consulting to the .mil crowd. I'm randomly kicking around a Ph.D in the history of technology, and the guy started asking questions, which automatically segued into HIM giving ME answers, because HE knew better.
It's not just ARs, it's military ops in general. If I had a nickel for every time someone (always with NO military experience) finds out I've done time in a two way range, and then freakin' pins me into a corner and lectures me about how things REALLY are.
It's people in general.
I used to work for a guy who had more guns than anyone I've ever met. He was a really good shot, but was not very proficient technically. His .357 lever gun started acting up. His answer was to copiously spray WD40 into it. I told him that was a bad idea and he said he'd been doing it for years. I noticed the ammo was repackaged commercial reloads. I told him the ammo might be crap. His response was "it says .357 on the box, it says .357 on the gun". After a few more attempts to fix it we walked across the street to a pawnshop. The owner was a life-long friend of my boss and told him the ammo was out of spec and that the rifle was gummed up w/ WD40 and lint. he had no problem hearing it from a fellow 50 year old.
It's all about ego. Most gun owners, I believe, really don't know much about guns. But our self-image demands that we appear to be proficient w/ grills cars firearms etc. If pressed, old green beret buddies must be conjured up to trump everyone.
Grant is dead on about the military too. The majority of military personnel are support people, not high speed rickys. No dishonor in that, but service does not impart commando knowledge, but civilians simply don't know any better.
I first heard the term "operator" in gunzines and immediately sneered at it. I found out later that some real life people use the term, so leson learned.
Derek_Connor
09-17-07, 09:56
Hey Guys,
Lets not just single our own community out for these type of events. These type of situations and conversations happen across the majority of hobbies alpha males engage in :)
For example, I enjoy photography. I am looking to upgrade my camera and I happened to walk into a Ritz Camera shop. I know a little bit about whats good, but I'll admit I do not know what I do not know
I began just looking at camera's from a distance where a customer began to engage in dialouge about what he thinks is best, the details of why these are the best, why these suck, what his friend did in africa, what his wife did in scandinavia etc.
I felt like I was sitting behind a counter at a local gun store, people want to feel like they are informed, it justifies and verifies the time and energy they have put into a particular subject matter.
I listened, since I am a nice person, and he continued to blab on.
And it was painful, I felt like I was subconsciously hearing a conversation about RRA vs Bushmaster. It eventually ended and I sped home...
So in conclusion, I have accepted the fact that we as males, and sometimes even females, will continue these conversations until the end of times. Just learn to recognize them, avoid them, and be able to break contact once you find yourself stuck inbetween them.
Also, be educated. Do your own research.........
HolyRoller
09-17-07, 13:06
Well.. According to this guy I know.. the reason posters do it.. is actually very simple
Cool by association... that's it..
yup. The first time I remember seeing the term "operator" applied to a gunbearer was in the Dick Marcinko books. Maybe that's how it got popularized?
Funny.. I spent over 20 yrs working for Uncle Sammy both full and part time.. and in all those years.. I never "MET" any serious Operators..
It always amazes me how guys who have never served a day in uniform, are lucky enough to know so many SEAL's or Green Beret's,etc..
You have to be lucky enough to live near Fort Bragg, home of the JFK Special Warfare Center, two Special Forces groups, and lots of other stuff we aren't supposed to know about. I know at least a few SF (if I asked them "are you a Green Beret?" they'd hopefully answer "no but my hat is"), active and retired, simply by going to the megachurch where some of them also go. There are also guys in SF Support, and others in the Q course, and they know some stuff. I don't know any Navy SEALs though. There are a lot LOT more Army SF than Navy SEALs, and I live in the wrong place to find SEALs.
And since THEY used Brand A.. it must be good.
It might be good, or it might be what they got issued, or it might only be what they THINK is good at the time. I try to keep the stupid questions to a minimum, but I have asked one or two SF guys what they think of the M9 and 1911. They seem to be of the opinion that either or both can get you through the day.
KintlaLake
09-17-07, 13:39
It's people in general. ... It's all about ego.
Jackpot.
It wouldn't be any different were we talking about abdominal surgery or automotive cooling systems. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that even the most AR-savvy folks on this board have sought the advice of a medical professional or mechanic...and then acted counter to that advice. ;)
It's what people do -- we make our own decisions. Some of us actually take the time to do research and listen to folks with more experience than we have before acting. Maybe our decisions will follow the advice of the smartest guy in the room, maybe it won't. Nothing personal.
Grant brought up this subject -- customers ignoring expertise and experience -- when I stopped by his shop a coupla weeks ago, and I believe I remarked that most smart people start out dumb and get smarter by making mistakes. Trying to prevent that learning process is futile.
What I'm saying is, "Got kids?":D
Jackpot.
It wouldn't be any different were we talking about abdominal surgery or automotive cooling systems. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that even the most AR-savvy folks on this board have sought the advice of a medical professional or mechanic...and then acted counter to that advice. ;)
It's what people do -- we make our own decisions. Some of us actually take the time to do research and listen to folks with more experience than we have before acting. Maybe our decisions will follow the advice of the smartest guy in the room, maybe it won't. Nothing personal.
Grant brought up this subject -- customers ignoring expertise and experience -- when I stopped by his shop a coupla weeks ago, and I believe I remarked that most smart people start out dumb and get smarter by making mistakes. Trying to prevent that learning process is futile.
What I'm saying is, "Got kids?":D
You beat me to it. I've been out of the military for 8 years and have been a member of most online forums since (some while I was still in but now gone). In that time I have come to the conclusion that most people might ask for your advice but they really don't want it, and most of the people giving out the advice should not be. I think ego plays a major roll since most people come to the internet to play out what they really want to be in life but are not.
And for the record, I don't know any real "Operators." I'm just another regular guy who shoots more than average and enjoys the technical aspects of firearms.
Funny you mention that.
My evening job is at a gun store, where I get to hear all sorts of stupid drivel, usually from the window licking crowd. I particularly like it when someone comes in and lectures me about how various LE agencies do this and carry that, since my day job is, in fact, in LE where I am a firearms instructor and supervisor for one of the bigger departments in the area. Oddly enough, I might actually know what the hell is going on in those circles. I usually just roll my eyes and let people enjoy their stupid fantasies, but I have no problem jumping in and correcting someone if he's obviously steering someone way wrong.
YMMV.
Joseywales
09-18-07, 00:00
I don't care what people say.....I only care what they can prove.
Skintop911
09-18-07, 11:41
Hey Guys,
Lets not just single our own community out for these type of events. These type of situations and conversations happen across the majority of hobbies alpha males engage in :)
Ain't that the truth. See also auto parts stores, golf shops, etc.
I like your mention of Ritz. The guy behind the counter there acted like I pooped on his counter when I asked for an accessory for my Rebel XT. Apparently, he was a Nikon fan. :D
Actually, I do know one fellow who was very recently a Navy SEAL, and , from what I can tell was for a while (more than just 4 years). I know what his specific traing was, and that he has been to the sandbox. I have talked to him a little about what worked for him, but not at great length. I have met a few vets who have been there and done that over the years, and try not to pester them too much, as most really would rather not drag it all back up again. I think they get tired of the "did you actually shoot anybody" questions. This fellow is now disabled, which is why he is out now. He has never used the term "Operator".
One of the funnest things for me to do is to hang out and watch a couple specific guys that work for us selling guns. Its just entertaining, because at some point they've had enough and set people straight. I understand that silly idea that the customer is always right and all that, but sometimes somebody is talkin' so far out their butt that they need to be set straight, if for no other reason than for the edification of the legitimate gun shoppers.
The blame for the wide spread use of the term "Operator" must be laid at the feet of the gun rag scribes. If there's a class of people that want to be more cool by ass...ociation than that one, I can't think of one. They like to throw that term around with gusto.
If you watch some of the older movies, or ask your "rents",(if your about my age) the term "operator", used to be bad thing. Itmeant a slick type guy, or con artist......"A real operator".
I think it was in Haneys book, where he talks about the term, and how it came about. But, much like tactical, mil-spec, etc etc its been so perverted that it now means nothing. Oh well.
As for the internet commandos know it all's, thats a topic for another day.
Bob
Reminds me of a song
Gather round me everybody
Let me tell you who I am
'Cause I'm a big time operator
And they call me High Hat Sam
I'm a big time operator
Operatin' through the land
Got a thousand pretty women
Waitin' for me where I go
And when it comes to doing nothin'
Hey, I'm really in the know
'Cause I'm a big time operator
And the ladies like it so...
GunLovinTexan
09-18-07, 21:41
The term operator is way over used.
But I think a bigger problem is "just as good".
Ill admit to anyone here, I dont know very much if anything about any weapons system, but thats why im here. R.Moran and I have had our share of arguments when I belived POF gas pistons were the end all be all Joe and aubrey also were in on that argument. My primary carbine is now LMT, so I guess I saw the light. but anyways that was along time before I came here.
being on that side of the fence I will admit to it being arrogance and EGO. I baught into the gas piston hype and beilived it without a doubt. I also had some seriouse bucks invested into them, so there was an emotional connection too. I defended it till I couldnt prove it anymore, causing me to beilive them. (I guess at that point I was broken then???)
Around this same time I also fell into the hype that industry professionals (such as Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers) were paid to like certian brands or were compensated some how. I know read everything I google off of them :) or find on diffrent forums.
So hopefully some of the "Just as good" or "this is better then XXXX" guys will see the light someday, I did. anyways im gonna shut up now because im rambling on about useless crap.
Rob
Misc Ex-Member
09-19-07, 00:29
..........
One of the funnest things for me to do is to hang out and watch a couple specific guys that work for us selling guns. Its just entertaining, because at some point they've had enough and set people straight. I understand that silly idea that the customer is always right and all that, but sometimes somebody is talkin' so far out their butt that they need to be set straight, if for no other reason than for the edification of the legitimate gun shoppers.
The blame for the wide spread use of the term "Operator" must be laid at the feet of the gun rag scribes. If there's a class of people that want to be more cool by ass...ociation than that one, I can't think of one. They like to throw that term around with gusto.
After several years of managing customer service organizations, I came to the conclusion that "The Customer Is Always Right" is wrong. "The Customer is Always the Customer" is a more accurate phrase.
If the customer wants something that is dangerous to themselves or others, is demeaning to my employees, or inconveniences other customers, I politely, and sometimes not so politely "FIRE THEM." It's a hell of a lot harder to hire a good employee than it is to find a customer. It's also industrial strength stupid to satisfy one unreasonable customer at the expense of five other customers.
And that is what the "Customer Is Always Right" idiots want you to do....
And since THEY used Brand A.. it must be good.
This really came to light during the Gas Piston Uprising a few months ago. I believe it was a BN in SF and one other smaller SO unit that purchased a few hundred GP Uppers. So when people use these Units as justification for why the Army should change over to GP Uppers. They are basically saying the 1st Infantry Division has the same Mission capabilities, requirements, resources and skills as the Units who purchased them. That comercially/profit driven Soldiers for the Truth comes to mind for some reason:eek:
At the time I didn't know how to respond to people screaming it must be good if they use it. Besides having completely different requirements do's anyone really believe these organizations never procured a piece of equipment that didn't work out or made the wrong choice before.
The fact the LAPD SWAT uses the 1911 pistol is often used by people recommending a 1911 for someone who is asking for Hand Gun recommendations. Usually for a CCW or Home defense. They will state that the limited Mag capacity isn't a big deal. It doesn't seem to concern LAPD SWAT.
Do's it occur to these people that a LAPD SWAT Officer uses the 1911 as a secondary Weapon. Not only is it his secondary in case his Primary AR go's down but he will have one or more Team Mates within feet of him 99.9% of the time for cover. What I am trying to say is THE LIMITED MAG CAPACITY DOESN'T KEEP THEM AWAKE AT NIGHT:D
A while back I had some people over to shoot on my Range at the house. They were a mix of civvies or Guys in the Q-Course. Younger guys. I am retired from SF. They were kind of shocked that the only kit I wore was a Drop Leg holster or the pockets of my pants to hold Mags. It's all ill have these days in a Gunfight unless working overseas.
Don't get me started on the Gun Rags or some of the Bios behind Instructors who are literally worshiped by younger students. Students who pay them for training and to be their friend at times. Most do run excellent training don't get me wrong. The courses are a blast to attend, veteran or beginner.
But it's funny and sometimes just sad to wittiness this worshipp. Some Instructors actually have entourages. If one such Guru told everyone in this particular course I attended to cut their Slings off because Slings were a sign of weakness. I believe more then half would of done it right there. Most Instructors just ignore the Guru worshiped but a few eat it up.
One idolized Instructor who runs a great training course told me a secrete off to the side. I was telling him about a new Range being constructed on my property. For the purpose of opening a School of my own. Also for other Schools to use. I was telling him my basic plane and truthfully wanting to hear his opinion, really I was.
He said there is a reason a lot of civilian Instructors won't hire guys with my experience. He said look at my AI'S. Yes, My number one priority is can they train people. But for the most part they are younger, less experienced or have a totally different back ground. If I could find ones that are smaller I would..LOL
These five day Commandos have a good idea that they are paying for some of the best training available. But they are also paying for a name associated with the training. He said, I might as well shoot myself in the foot in front of everyone if I am going have AI'S who out stage me all the time.
He takes the training very seriuse but it's also a bussiness and he has to maintain this image. If your training sucks then no image will save you. But a good image will get that same guy to return every year.
Thought it was interesting, ill shut up now:cool:
aloharover
09-19-07, 11:47
Reminds me of a song
I was thinking of this one
Operator, can you help me, help me if you please.
Give me the right area code and the number that I need.
My rider left upon the Midnight Flyer,
Singin' like a summer breeze.
I think she's somewhere down South, down about Baton Rouge,
But I just can't remember no number, a number I can use.
Directory don't have it, central done forgot it,
I've gotta find a number to use.
Trying to check out her number, trying to run down her line.
Operator said that's priv'ledged information,
And it ain't no business of mine.
It's floodin' down in Texas, poles are out in Utah,
Gotta find a private line.
aloharover
09-19-07, 11:53
Not only is it his secondary in case his Primary AR go's down but he will have one or more Team Mates within feet of him 99.9% of the time for cover.
That's always one of the biggest laughs I get when the arm chair rambo makes a comment about weapons, TTPs, etc.
They always seem to forget that the military trains in a certain way and its always based upon the team concept. Whether it's a 2-man buddy team or an entire BCT the train to fight model revolves around team work.
Pete
RogerinTPA
10-07-07, 23:22
Pilots are among the biggest BSer's on the planet. I hear their stories about procedures and the regs on a daily bases (Me being a pilot as well), but when I ask for a reference (SOP/Tech Manual/Federal Reg/Section, sub-paragraph, etc...) they start back pedaling and it turns out to be their's or someone else's personal BS that has some how morphed into regulatory procedure, then shoved down the throats of the novices, or anyone else within earshot, then it becomes their regulatory procedure and regurgitated (So and So says you should do it this way). When someone has the discipline to look it up, it's no where to be found. Which can cause major confusion in any discipline.
I agree, its all BS/Cool by association crap. I think it's a way for ignorant people with low self esteem to boost their own ego's, and try an throw a rock at someone who actually knows what he/she is talking about by try to trump what ever you just told them. Unless you actually have THE experience and expertise in whatever the discipline is or have a reference (Technical Manual/SOP/Reg or actual expert in the field), its all BS, IE, if you ain't the expert, STFU, listen & learn!
wayfarin'stranger
10-08-07, 00:02
I should point out that when I use the term "Operator" I'm using it in the same sense that far too many others do; to describe someone (anyone?) in the military. My impression of most people with an "Operator" friend is that they have a friend who was a radio operator in the rear somewhere and who has talked at length about all about the problems the DI M4 has from reading that one article in the Army Times and from speaking to the many "Delta Friends" that he has.
On a side note, it seems that most "Operator Friends" in turn have "Delta Friends" that they get all the good intel from.
Sweet, I'm a Crew Chief on B-52's, so I guess that makes me an 'Operator' who knows everything about rifles right? :D
Well, the way I see it an Operator is someone who USES the item in question. In my case the pilots (Operators) can't tell me jack about the inner workings of a B-52, and I can't 'operate' it for jack.
In the case of weapons, I would take the word of the person who tears it apart constantly to 'see what's going on' and has had lots of experience with different brands.
In the Operator's case, as long as it goes bang-bang it's good right?
So, if I did contract maintenance at Dulles and Des Moines International, does that make me an "operator" for "Delta"?:cool: :D
Sweet, I'm a Crew Chief on B-52's, so I guess that makes me an 'Operator' who knows everything about rifles right? :D
Keep an eye out for those warheads, sometimes they show up in the peskiest of places. ;)
Patrick Aherne
10-08-07, 13:19
People buy weapons for lots of reasons. Very few buy them because they understand that it is a life support item and must work as reliably as possible. I always go by the scratched up tools analogy: would you trust a carpenter with new tools? Why would you trust a guy with safe-queen guns?
These guys that buy a firearm based on "Team/force/squad X uses it, ergo," are really trying to allay their own fears. Somewhere, down in their hearts, they know they could never do the things that professionals do with the weapons, but they purchase it as a talisman of protection. They are comforted by the purchase of the item. It doesn't matter one whit if they can use it or not; denial is a powerful narcotic to the mind.
As regards meeting real deal guys, here's my SHOT show guide to tell who is the real deal: The 400 lb. guy, over-perspiring, smells like my jock after a three-mile run, who tells you he was a SEAL and involved in black projects, in an extremely loud voice, is not nor never was. The polite, extremely in shape, guy from Coronado who asks if your flashlight is water proof to two atmospheres might be.
wayfarin'stranger
10-08-07, 13:44
Keep an eye out for those warheads, sometimes they show up in the peskiest of places. ;)
Ahh...FUNNY GUY! :D
When I was a kid, most operators answered telephones. It seems that the term has assumed new meanings. Eventually, it too will become overused and cool folks will adopt another word to describe this stuff. Remember when the term SWAT first cropped up? Now these guys prefer to be called SPECIAL OPS.
Both the military and civilian l.e. groups have special ops. In the past, only civilian outfits have had the other. One reason for the change is that some folks called them sQuat teams. Special operations sounds better. I know guys who had had squat tatoos and had them removed and replaced with special ops tatoos.
Most cops carry what is provided for them, and this changes as fads change.
About words....nobody is a commando anymore, The term went out of vogue 45 years ago. What do you do for living, Leroy? I'm a commando? :cool:
I was poking fun at a serious issue. Even when I was young, I could not have qualified for anybody's team. My hat is off to those who serve.
Williejc
wayfarin'stranger
10-09-07, 22:14
When I was a kid, most operators answered telephones. It seems that the term has assumed new meanings. Eventually, it too will become overused and cool folks will adopt another word to describe this stuff. Remember when the term SWAT first cropped up? Now these guys prefer to be called SPECIAL OPS.
Both the military and civilian l.e. groups have special ops. In the past, only civilian outfits have had the other. One reason for the change is that some folks called them sQuat teams. Special operations sounds better. I know guys who had had squat tatoos and had them removed and replaced with special ops tatoos.
Williejc
Nice perspective.... +1
Combat_Medic
10-13-07, 10:47
. This guy has never even taken his bolt out of his carrier. :rolleyes:
C4
C4IGrant you are 100% correct sir. I see these types at the Range/Gun Stores all the time. :) and dont try to help them out ...you just may get....
Carrier...???? it that like my kittie carrier... Does it come in a Ballistic Nylon to match my pouches to hold my AR-16 Clips.....
LOL... ;)
RogerinTPA
10-13-07, 12:46
I remember back in the day, when the term "Specops" was all the craze in the civilian community. Even when the military special operations community, the term SOF (Special Operations Forces) was the term in use and still used today. US Army Special Forces are also known as"Green Berets" and Seals are SEALS, Rangers are Rangers, Delta, SEAL TEAM 6, are all considered SOF Forces . Our reference to the term "Operator" was always in reference to the folks that are at the very highest lethally trained personnel from units like Delta, now Combat Applications Group and SEAL team 6/Navspecwardelvgroup.
Although a SWAT team member is a highly trained person, he would not be considered an "Operator" in the military SOF community. Now days, most folks from supply clerks to cooks, are taught a 4 man stack to enter and clear a building. Its funny how a lot of folks wants the big "S" on there chest with the "flowing red cape" and just can't accept there current position in life and aspire and pretend to be more than what they really are. :p
Heavy Metal
10-13-07, 13:26
Believe it or not many of the support guys are very carefull as not to give the wrong impression.
Hell, I am proud to have been support.
If people like me weren't around to burn off the honeypots in the shitters, guys like you would not be able to do your job!:D :D :D
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