Mid Lenght Dilemma, CMMG vs. Sabre Defense.

[Bob Reed]

Hello,

A delemma has arose between a CMMG Mid Lenght & Sabre Defense Mid Lenght Carbine.

My little buddy can get a CMMG Mid Lenght Carbine set up exactly the way he want's it right from the get go if he choses CMMG's Mid Lenght Carbine.

However, he's thinking about getting the Sabre Defense Mid Lenght Carbine that only comes with an A2 Buttstock and going through the added expense of converting it with a quality sliding unit w/forged receiver extension and quality buffer & spring.

If he goes with CMMG he also get's an A2 Upper that he like's, plus the Medium Contour Barrel that he prefers.

Should he just get the CMMG and be done with it??? Or, would it really be worth getting the Sabre Defense and spending the extra money changing out the stock, and settling for the Govt. Profile Barrel & removeable handle?

He has to use an adjustable stock because of his small size and he can live with the removeable handle & Govt. Profile Barrel "if the Sabre is really worth the extra work & cost" when chosing between the two brands in question.

His mid lenght carbine will be subjected to hard use & must be reliable.

Thanks for your help.

[Paulinski]

Why not have one build to your specifications.

Sabre Midlength Barrel, BCM Bolt/Carrier, DD M4 Upper and add lower of your choice.

My $0.02

Paul

[jmart]

There's a 3rd option and that's buying a lower with whatever slider he wants (vs what CMMG installs) and then having an upper built with a SDI barrel.

There are vendors that sell just SDI barrels, depending upon which material you order it out of (SS vs CM) they either come with fixed sights installed or without (in which case you have to add the gas block and sight). Dollars wise the SDI route will probably cost a bit more, and in the end it may be easier to swap out the receiver extension/buffer/slider than to have a upper built.

Just another option to consider, it might make sense if he wants to upgrade the slider ( to a Vltor, Magpul, LMT, etc.) from whatever CMMG installs as OEM. I'm not sure if CMMG uses milspec dimensioned extensions or not, but if they don't depending upon which slider he might want he would have to replace the extension. MAGPUL CTRs come in both dimensions, LMTs are milspec-only, VLTORs I can't remember.

Hope I haven't confused you.

[C4IGrant]

SD defense barrels are better than CMMG IMHO. I would go with SD.



C4

[Bob Reed]

Hello & Thanks,

He's really leaning towards the CMMG, because he can get the mid lenght carbine configured exactly the way he want's it in one easy step from one place. He's also totally content with the A2 Grip & Slider that comes standard on the CMMG.

I did several searches & lots of reading here regarding CMMG and didn't really find anything bad about them. In fact, I didn't really see any mention of folks using their complete carbine & rifle packages.

Thanks Again for your help & any light that can be shed on the over-all quality of CMMG's Carbines.

[grinch]

Ok i'll bit.

I've got no ties to either company so do tell why are saber barrels better then CMMG?

[C4IGrant]

Ok i'll bit.

I've got no ties to either company so do tell why are saber barrels better then CMMG?


Materials used and quality. SD uses CMV barrel steel. They also make their barrels in house and their accuracy is fantastic.

I, ADCO and several other dealers have had various issues with their barrels (which is why I can no longer recommend them).


C4

[C4IGrant]

Hello & Thanks,

He's really leaning towards the CMMG, because he can get the mid lenght carbine configured exactly the way he want's it in one easy step from one place. He's also totally content with the A2 Grip & Slider that comes standard on the CMMG.

I did several searches & lots of reading here regarding CMMG and didn't really find anything bad about them. In fact, I didn't really see any mention of folks using their complete carbine & rifle packages.

Thanks Again for your help & any light that can be shed on the over-all quality of CMMG's Carbines.

Having looked at several CMMG AR's I kind of look at them as a DPMS with upgrades. If you think a DPMS is a good weapon, then the CMMG will be perfect for you.


C4

[Shihan]

Grant do you know anything about Sabre's Light Weight Carbine? The one with the Cav Arms poly lower. Cav Arms here in Az sells alot of the Sabre marked ones and im guessing they assemble them for Sabre as well. I just dont know if they are using Cav parts or Sabre parts for the upper?

[C4IGrant]

Grant do you know anything about Sabre's Light Weight Carbine? The one with the Cav Arms poly lower. Cav Arms here in Az sells alot of the Sabre marked ones and im guessing they assemble them for Sabre as well. I just dont know if they are using Cav parts or Sabre parts for the upper?

It is hard to say for certain. Authentic SD uppers have a receiver that is marked "Sabre Defence" on it. So if the receiver doesn't say that, then you know that it was most likely NOT built at SD.


C4

[Bob Reed]

Hello Grant & Thanks,

Since he's dead set on getting a complete mid lenght weapon, it sounds like it would be best for him to just get the Sabre and live with the extra cost of adding a quality sliding stock assy.

Thanks Again.

[jmart]

Grant,

When did your bad experiences with CMMG occur? Recently or a ways back?

[grinch]

what type of issues??

[C4IGrant]

Grant,

When did your bad experiences with CMMG occur? Recently or a ways back?


Bad experience goes from when Giffman did that big barrel group buy and they were all FUBARD to just a month ago.


C4

[C4IGrant]

what type of issues??

Key holing, incorrect gas port position and size, gouges in the inside of the barrel, FSB pins that smash flat when you try and remove them.


C4

[jmart]

Bad experience goes from when Giffman did that big barrel group buy and they were all FUBARD to just a month ago.


C4

I was aware of Giffman deal, but that was awhile ago. I thought they had cleaned their act up since then.

[C4IGrant]

I was aware of Giffman deal, but that was awhile ago. I thought they had cleaned their act up since then.

Not yet. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7570



C4

[jmart]

That's not terribly confidence inspiring but I'd give CMMG a chance to replace it before writing them off. We're talking a sample size of one here and God knows there's been plenty of cases where other respected AR mfg's, 1911 smiths, etc. have let a lemon out the door. If they can't get it right, or especially if they refuse to fix things, then by all means slam 'em.

[grinch]

Cool I was never drawn to there stuff and dont have any so its interesting to hear about them.

[Voodoochild]

If you could get a hold of one of Denny's operator barrels I would go with that.

[GIFFMANN]

Since my name was used, I'll jump in.

A few years back, CMMG did a run of middy barrels for me. These were the first middies available in 4150 with a 1/7 twist. I went with CMMG as lots of folks were running their barrels and everyone was very happy with them. One example that stands out was a report that Yojimbo wrote up.

Gas Port was located 1/8" too far forward as a measurement was made by them, or their machinist, from the wrong side of the flange of the barrel extension. While this, in and of itself, has not (to my knowledge) caused any issues, there were other issues that mainly revolved around poor accuracy on some samples and tight chambers.

My personal sample, as well as one that K9DPD has run, have been quite accurate. I know K9 was hitting golfballs with his at 100 yds with an ACOG IIRC. Mine, at 50 yds has always been more than accurate enough. However, with certain ammo, my personal barrel has started to experience some FTEs which evidence themselves with stuck cases. Mostly with Wolf, but I THINK I've had some with good brass ammo as well. Probably Remington from WalMart, but I'm not sure.

Near as I can figure out, as the tight chambers and poor accuracy were never root caused, is that either the chamber dimensions did NOT take into account the thickness of the chrome lining, OR the chrome lining is inconsistent thicknesses OR the reamer used to chamber the barrels dulled considerably during production of this run. Perhaps it is a combination of all 3 on some. I know that Steve from Adco and Mongo both experienced VERY poor accuracy, and I think keyholing from their handloads that have shot well out of every other barrel they've tried.

As it stands, I've got 4 barrels still sitting here. One is my personal barrel I'm still using, but will probably discontinue if I keep exeriencing stoppages (although I'm tempted to have Ned ream it with his 5.56 reamer to see what happens). The others are just expensive paperweights.

I have NOT tried any CMMG barrels since that time. Perhaps they have improved. However, from reports I've read here and on Lightfighter, it seems that tight chambers have plagued them on and off since my barrel were produced.

Some folks have good luck. For instance, I understand that KevinB has 1 or 2 SOCOM style barrels from them and they seem to run fine. Others are not always so lucky.

I did notice that in 2 of the gun rags this month, they had write ups on their products.

Jeff and John are good guys. They've got a nice setup there and run some good shoots. If they could improve their consistency, they could definitely compete even moreso than they do now.

I refuse to talk bad about them as they were good to work. My barrel experience was definitely not a good one, and I personally lost thousands of dollars on that thing. However, I do believe that it paved the way for others by demonstrating the viable market for 1/7, 4150 middy barrels. If nothing else, it has allowed others to enter that market and do quite well.

Giff

[C4IGrant]

That's not terribly confidence inspiring but I'd give CMMG a chance to replace it before writing them off. We're talking a sample size of one here and God knows there's been plenty of cases where other respected AR mfg's, 1911 smiths, etc. have let a lemon out the door. If they can't get it right, or especially if they refuse to fix things, then by all means slam 'em.



I and my fellow dealers have seen to many issues with their barrels (and other items) to recommend them any more (which is what I used to do).


C4

[C4IGrant]

Since my name was used, I'll jump in.

A few years back, CMMG did a run of middy barrels for me. These were the first middies available in 4150 with a 1/7 twist. I went with CMMG as lots of folks were running their barrels and everyone was very happy with them. One example that stands out was a report that Yojimbo wrote up.

Gas Port was located 1/8" too far forward as a measurement was made by them, or their machinist, from the wrong side of the flange of the barrel extension. While this, in and of itself, has not (to my knowledge) caused any issues, there were other issues that mainly revolved around poor accuracy on some samples and tight chambers.

My personal sample, as well as one that K9DPD has run, have been quite accurate. I know K9 was hitting golfballs with his at 100 yds with an ACOG IIRC. Mine, at 50 yds has always been more than accurate enough. However, with certain ammo, my personal barrel has started to experience some FTEs which evidence themselves with stuck cases. Mostly with Wolf, but I THINK I've had some with good brass ammo as well. Probably Remington from WalMart, but I'm not sure.

Near as I can figure out, as the tight chambers and poor accuracy were never root caused, is that either the chamber dimensions did NOT take into account the thickness of the chrome lining, OR the chrome lining is inconsistent thicknesses OR the reamer used to chamber the barrels dulled considerably during production of this run. Perhaps it is a combination of all 3 on some. I know that Steve from Adco and Mongo both experienced VERY poor accuracy, and I think keyholing from their handloads that have shot well out of every other barrel they've tried.

As it stands, I've got 4 barrels still sitting here. One is my personal barrel I'm still using, but will probably discontinue if I keep exeriencing stoppages (although I'm tempted to have Ned ream it with his 5.56 reamer to see what happens). The others are just expensive paperweights.

I have NOT tried any CMMG barrels since that time. Perhaps they have improved. However, from reports I've read here and on Lightfighter, it seems that tight chambers have plagued them on and off since my barrel were produced.

Some folks have good luck. For instance, I understand that KevinB has 1 or 2 SOCOM style barrels from them and they seem to run fine. Others are not always so lucky.

I did notice that in 2 of the gun rags this month, they had write ups on their products.

Jeff and John are good guys. They've got a nice setup there and run some good shoots. If they could improve their consistency, they could definitely compete even moreso than they do now.

I refuse to talk bad about them as they were good to work. My barrel experience was definitely not a good one, and I personally lost thousands of dollars on that thing. However, I do believe that it paved the way for others by demonstrating the viable market for 1/7, 4150 middy barrels. If nothing else, it has allowed others to enter that market and do quite well.

Giff

Thanks Giff. I also think you were hung out to dry on that deal (sorry).


C4

[GIFFMANN]

Thanks Giff. I also think you were hung out to dry on that deal (sorry).


C4

It definitely could have gone better.....

[k9dpd]

Since my name was brought, I will comment,lol My Giff barrel has been good to go, no issues what so ever. I have over 4000 rounds of 75 and 77 grain bullets and it is 100%. I have also purchased a 14.5 middy from CMMG and it is also a great barrel, it has been through a Super dave and a Vickers class and the barrel is still running like a champ. So on my limited experience it has been good, but I am sure the dealers see alot more collection of barrels than I have. I would buy again based on my experience.

[G19Tony]

Based on information I have read on this, and other forums dealing with AR's, I ordered a Sabre 16in Mid Length upper with flip front and rear sights this morning. It will be going on one of my Double Star lowers, with a DPMS LPK. Other parts coming are:

Magpul Commercial CTR and tube.
Magpul MIAD with N battery core.

I sent an email to Jay at DD and asked about a Mid Length Omega rail, he replied that one is in the preparation stages for manufacture. I'll just use the regular handguard until that becomes available.

I think this will turn out to be a fine rifle. :D

[rob_s]

There is another member here that I shoot with who had another failure to eject on his Giffman (sorry Giff) barrel AFTER it had been reamed with Ned's reamer. His first problem with this barrel was at Pat Roger's class last year, and now he's still having issues even after reaming. In fact, I believe he broke his Vltor stock trying to mortar the stuck case out of the thing.

CMMG, like C-Products, is one of those companies that I really want to love, that I think has a whole ton of potential, but that seems to have too many ups and downs for me to want to deal with. Consistency is key in my book, and consistently good is even better.:D

[Shihan]

Based on information I have read on this, and other forums dealing with AR's, I ordered a Sabre 16in Mid Length upper with flip front and rear sights this morning. It will be going on one of my Double Star lowers, with a DPMS LPK. Other parts coming are:

Magpul Commercial CTR and tube.
Magpul MIAD with N battery core.

I sent an email to Jay at DD and asked about a Mid Length Omega rail, he replied that one is in the preparation stages for manufacture. I'll just use the regular handguard until that becomes available.

I think this will turn out to be a fine rifle. :D

Since you dishing out all the $ buy the CTR with the included RE and make the rest of the weapon happy. If you havent already purchased the DPMS LPK there are better options.

[G19Tony]

Since you dishing out all the $ buy the CTR with the included RE and make the rest of the weapon happy. If you havent already purchased the DPMS LPK there are better options.

I know there are better options for LPK's, I just haven't been able to find them. Any suggestions would be appreciated. ;)

[donr101395]

I know there are better options for LPK's, I just haven't been able to find them. Any suggestions would be appreciated. ;)

Grant(G&R Tactical) has CMT LPKs and said he was working on an LMT one in another thread.

[C4IGrant]

We have roughly come up with a LMT LPK (less trigger, hammer, pins). Cost is somewhere around $45 we think.



C4

[G19Tony]

Since you dishing out all the $ buy the CTR with the included RE and make the rest of the weapon happy. If you havent already purchased the DPMS LPK there are better options.


I did get the RE. It's just the commercial version. I've purchased from Grant before, so I'll give a call.

[Shihan]

I did get the RE. It's just the commercial version. I've purchased from Grant before, so I'll give a call.

Magpul dosent sell a commercial RE. If its from Magpul its a milspec RE. If they were seperate purchases return it and get the milspec version.

[G19Tony]

Magpul dosent sell a commercial RE. If its from Magpul its a milspec RE. If they were seperate purchases return it and get the milspec version.

Your talking about the receiver extension, correct? Occasionally, the acyronyms get away from me. :confused:

[wild_wild_wes]

I just bought some midlength barrels from CMMG because they are the only ones making Lightweight (normal) barrels...I hope they are good!

[Remember911]

Out of the two witch one, or dose both make thier own barrel? Are is there a chance that both are made at the same place just turned down to diff profiles by some one else? And engraved with the comp logo.

[Remember911]

Out of the two witch one, or dose both make thier own barrel? Are is there a chance that both are made at the same place just turned down to diff profiles by some one else? And engraved with the comp logo.

[Shihan]

Your talking about the receiver extension, correct? Occasionally, the acyronyms get away from me. :confused:


Yes reciever extension.

[G19Tony]

Yes reciever extension.


Package deal, Commercial RE and CTR. I'm reasonably sure my Doublestar lower is not mil spec.:)

[Shihan]

Package deal, Commercial RE and CTR. I'm reasonably sure my Doublestar lower is not mil spec.:)

You are aware that the commercial RE is weaker than the milspec RE?

[G19Tony]

You are aware that the commercial RE is weaker than the milspec RE?


No, but I also understand, that a mil spec RE will not fit a non mil spec lower. I don't think my Doublestar lower is mil spec. If it doesn't fit, I will change it out. ;)

[gotm4]

No, but I also understand, that a mil spec RE will not fit a non mil spec lower. I don't think my Doublestar lower is mil spec. If it doesn't fit, I will change it out. ;)

A mil-spec receiver extension will fit on any AR15 lower. The threads on the receiver are the same (the receiver doesn't know the difference). Commercial receiver extension also fit any receiver but don't have complete threads (the peaks of the threads are machined off). Will it ever fail? I don't know, I ONLY use mil-spec.

[G19Tony]

A mil-spec receiver extension will fit on any AR15 lower. The threads on the receiver are the same (the receiver doesn't know the difference). Commercial receiver extension also fit any receiver but don't have complete threads (the peaks of the threads are machined off). Will it ever fail? I don't know, I ONLY use mil-spec.

You learn something new every day. Thank you for the information. I'm going to stick with what I have for now. If I have a problem, it will be an easy fix. :)