View Full Version : Bad Range Day with a Sig 556
Recently I sold a friend a Sig 556 CPO as his first rifle. Yesterday was his second time ever shooting this rifle. Even though the rifle was a CPO it looked absolutely brand new.
While confirming zero at 25 yards using Lake City M193 out of a 30 rd PMAG the action seized up during the extraction process. We tried all the usual methods to clear the gun, including hitting the butt against an object while pulling on the charging handle and tapping a cleaning rod against the fired case using a mallot. We separated the upper and lower and the bolt carrier moved without any effort. I inspected the fired case and found absolutely nothing wrong with it. Ditto for all upper receiver components.
When I looked at the lower receiver it was immediately apparent that the bolt release lever broke in half from top to bottom just to the right of the center of it's pivot point. The left side was still attached while the right side was just floating around in the gun and had caused the failure we experienced. The part looks like the heat treating process was flawed (if it ever was treated) because the metal was a very different color inside and seemed extremely brittle. Compared to the DD M4 and KAC SR15E3 I had with me this part looked much thinner on the Sig than the ARs.
I know this is just an isolated incident and I am in no way trying to bash Sigs. But Exeter's quality control has really slipped.
Is this a common problem with these rifles or with ARs? Or just a fluke?
At least I know Sig will make this right.
Hey so long as you can get a replacement, everythings fine.
Hey so long as you can get a replacement, everythings fine.
Unless of course it was a duty weapon or you were actually having to use it on a two way range, in which case you're ****ed.
"Everything's fine", my hairy ass.
lloydkristmas
03-06-11, 12:54
Hey so long as you can get a replacement, everythings fine.
Uh yeah thats bad bad bad on many levels.
The moment I realize I have a gun that could randomly fail on me at any time due to poor workmanship, that gun gets sold right the F then
Bolt release failure that early is a metallurgical failure, or a badly out of spec part that caused a failure. Either should have been caught at the factory.
Flawed heat treat sounds most likely, and Sig should replace it, but if they're running a thinner part on there, more emphasis should be on metallurgy and QA of it.
Heavy Metal
03-06-11, 14:55
Low-bid MIM wins again!
Unless of course it was a duty weapon or you were actually having to use it on a two way range, in which case you're ****ed.
"Everything's fine", my hairy ass.
unless I have not seen the evidence, there doesn't seem to be a consistent problem regarding the SIG556 bolt catch. In this instance, it seems to have been an isolated incident.
That is, until I see more examples of the bolt catch breaking since the SIG556's release.
Low-bid MIM wins again!
A very likely candidate for the cause of this failure. MIM parts have never had the same level of strength of machined parts. In fact, Remington specifically uses machine parts for their Police line of 870s because of the durability difference.
unless I have not seen the evidence, there doesn't seem to be a consistent problem regarding the SIG556 bolt catch. In this instance, it seems to have been an isolated incident.
That is, until I see more examples of the bolt catch breaking since the SIG556's release.
http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8777
http://connect.lawofficer.com/group/firearmsinstructors/forum/topics/sig-sauer-516-and-556
variablebinary
03-06-11, 16:41
Hey so long as you can get a replacement, everythings fine.
So let me understand this, if some LEO/MIL is unfortunate enough to have a 556 when shit goes bad, and it falls apart due to inconsistent QC and substandard materials, as long as he can get spares in a week, everything is fine? Really?
unless I have not seen the evidence, there doesn't seem to be a consistent problem regarding the SIG556 bolt catch. In this instance, it seems to have been an isolated incident.
:suicide:
Unless of course it was a duty weapon or you were actually having to use it on a two way range, in which case you're ****ed.
"Everything's fine", my hairy ass.
This.
It's inexcusable for Sig to be using such a crappy, poorly machined part in a firearm marketed for use in military, LE, self-defense applications.
http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8777
http://connect.lawofficer.com/group/...er-516-and-556
The second link is talking about the the bolt latch on the carrier, not the bolt hold open device/bolt catch/whatever.......
So let me understand this, if some LEO/MIL is unfortunate enough to have a 556 when shit goes bad, and it falls apart due to inconsistent QC and substandard materials, as long as he can get spares in a week, everything is fine? Really?
Shit happens even with what's supposed to be "high quality" parts.
Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we ARE talking about the the bolt hold device that holds the carrier back on the last round right???
Because if that's true, this is the first time I've read about that part having problems. I knew of the MIM piece on the carrier that holds in place the bolt knob but I had not known that the BHO may also be MIM.
lloydkristmas
03-06-11, 21:20
The second link is talking about the the bolt latch on the carrier, not the bolt hold open device/bolt catch/whatever.......
Shit happens even with what's supposed to be "high quality" parts.
Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we ARE talking about the the bolt hold device that holds the carrier back on the last round right???
Because if that's true, this is the first time I've read about that part having problems. I knew of the MIM piece on the carrier that holds in place the bolt knob but I had not known that the BHO may also be MIM.
Really?? How often does "shit happen" with FN SCARs? Noveske N4s? Krebs AKs? FN P90s? Larue ARs?
Every gun has potential for issues, regardless of the quality of manufacture, its just a fact of life when working with tools that are as mechanically stressed as firearms. That said, when critical parts randomly snap in half, I'd call that inexcusable.
Really?? How often does "shit happen" with FN SCARs? Noveske N4s? Krebs AKs? FN P90s? Larue ARs?
Every gun has potential for issues, regardless of the quality of manufacture, its just a fact of life when working with tools that are as mechanically stressed as firearms. That said, when critical parts randomly snap in half, I'd call that inexcusable.
Totally agree....I usually don't bash a firearm maker (except DPMS and OLY) but SIGUSA needs to stop slapping a shiny emblem on the hood of a Pinto and calling it a Mercedes...
pbr streetgang
03-06-11, 21:54
I didn't think there was such thing as a bad day at the range...
I guess there is
Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we ARE talking about the the bolt hold device that holds the carrier back on the last round right???
Yes, you are correct on that point.
The original poster clearly described the gun being incapacitated in his first post:
While confirming zero at 25 yards using Lake City M193 out of a 30 rd PMAG the action seized up during the extraction process.
The second link is talking about the the bolt latch on the carrier, not the bolt hold open device/bolt catch/whatever.......
Shit happens even with what's supposed to be "high quality" parts.
Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we ARE talking about the the bolt hold device that holds the carrier back on the last round right???
Because if that's true, this is the first time I've read about that part having problems. I knew of the MIM piece on the carrier that holds in place the bolt knob but I had not known that the BHO may also be MIM.
I didn't think there was such thing as a bad day at the range...
I guess there is
I guess there is, if you bring a SIG 556...
Common problem with MIM parts.
.
That's not a "Bad Range Day with a Sig 556". It seems like it was an "enlightening day at the range".
My Classic SWAT was the only gun I ever despised.
Couldn't wait to get rid of it.
I sold it over a year ago at a Gun Show. I was at that Gun Show last month and saw the buyer. I asked him if he liked the SIG and he said it was "Great!" We talked a little and then I asked him how many rounds he has fired through it. He told me ..."None!".
Hmmm...it is "Great!" just sitting in the safe?? That is probably how most guns keep a good reputation.
Good luck dealing with SIG. :blink:
.
I guess I should clarify something. It was a bad range day for my buddy who left in a pretty shitty mood considering his only rifle experienced a serious malfunction.
I, on the other hand, couldn't have been happier with the KAC SR15-E3 and Daniel Defense M4 that I brought along :D
No malfunctions, as usual.
In a way, I'm very glad this happened to your friend on a square range, early on in his carbine buying career.
Hopefully it's a teachable moment and he'll be buying a serious carbine that can be expected to work reliably and built with proper QC, like your KAC, or Daniel Defense.
Hopefully SIG will get the 556 up and running so he can sell it at the next gun show.
Or maybe Kal might be interested in taking it off of his hands, since "everything's fine."
Your buddy should be able to pick up a Colt 6920, LMT, DD, or Bravo Co. for about what he should be able to get for the 556 when it's fixed.
lloydkristmas
03-06-11, 22:57
I had a shitty day at the range too. I shot through 25 rounds of ammo zeroing a red dot, then shot through another 75, only to realize the mounting screw had backed out and my "zero" was no longer valid after retightening. Out of ammo, and out of time. I guess I'll have to head back out again and retry it all. On the other hand, that marks approx. 4100 rounds of jam-free FS2000 action, no "shit happens" MIM breakage here ;)
I suspect the BHO is MIM but does anybody have proof? Where can one find this info?
In a way, I'm very glad this happened to your friend on a square range, early on in his carbine buying career.
Hopefully it's a teachable moment and he'll be buying a serious carbine that can be expected to work reliably and built with proper QC, like your KAC, or Daniel Defense.
Hopefully SIG will get the 556 up and running so he can sell it at the next gun show.
Or maybe Kal might be interested in taking it off of his hands, since "everything's fine."
Your buddy should be able to pick up a Colt 6920, LMT, DD, or Bravo Co. for about what he should be able to get for the 556 when it's fixed.
Some people are dense and just don't listen. I spent hours of time over several months trying to convince my friend to go with an AR for his first rifle. He just had to have the Sig over the SR15 or LMT. I didn't have the heart to say, "I told you so" although I know it was on both of our minds.
We both plan on taking a carbine class together soon and I certainly did remark about how great it is to encounter a problem like this now rather than 4 hours into a 3 day carbine course we paid $450 for.
lloydkristmas
03-06-11, 23:14
Some people are dense and just don't listen. I spent hours of time over several months trying to convince my friend to go with an AR for his first rifle. He just had to have the Sig over the SR15 or LMT. I didn't have the heart to say, "I told you so" although I know it was on both of our minds.
We both plan on taking a carbine class together soon and I certainly did remark about how great it is to encounter a problem like this now rather than 4 hours into a 3 day carbine course we paid $450 for.
Glad you'll (hopefully) be able to steer your friend in the right direction. Some people prefer to learn from others' mistakes, others insist on learning from their own.
I suspect the BHO is MIM but does anybody have proof? Where can one find this info?
I don't have pictures to post but from the looks of things I would say with 99.9% certainty that this piece is MIM. The piece looked like a metallic equivalent of particle board on the inside.
We both plan on taking a carbine class together soon and I certainly did remark about how great it is to encounter a problem like this now rather than 4 hours into a 3 day carbine course we paid $450 for.
Just bring your KAC and DD and lend him the one you aren't using when the Sig goes tits up on him. That will really be a learning moment!
Had the exact same thing happen a couple of years ago with my wife's Sig 556. Bolt handle retainer (or whatever you want to call it) sheared in half at the pivot point. This was in the first 20 round through the rifle. To Sigs credit they sent me a replacement within a week. Still shouldn't have broken. Needless to say the 556 is not going to be the first rifle I grab if I have to head out the door.
Shit happens even with what's supposed to be "high quality" parts.
It happens with far greater frequency with Sig.
variablebinary
03-07-11, 21:20
Some people are dense and just don't listen. I spent hours of time over several months trying to convince my friend to go with an AR for his first rifle. He just had to have the Sig over the SR15 or LMT. I didn't have the heart to say, "I told you so" although I know it was on both of our minds.
This is the gun SIG should have sold in the USA from day one, and they should have done it to Swiss standards.
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g377/VariableB/firearmspics/SIG551LB.jpg
This is the gun SIG should have sold in the USA from day one, and they should have done it to Swiss standards.
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g377/VariableB/firearmspics/SIG551LB.jpg
Except for the fact the rear sight is backwards, I fully agree. Maybe Sig will see the light and one day rectify this.
Except for the fact the rear sight is backwards, I fully agree. Maybe Sig will see the light and one day rectify this.
lol :laugh:
http://www.gun-world.net/sigsauer/sg551swat/swat_vl.jpg
RogerinTPA
03-08-11, 16:17
A hard head makes a soft ass. Lesson learned.
I detest MIM and all that it stands for. :mad:
Problems with DD rifles:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254085
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67179
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=266522
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
Problems with LMT rifles:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2161333
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php?t19966.html
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=255253
Problems with KAC rifles:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74151&page=4
"My SR-15 is "in the shop" right now, getting looked at by KAC for short stroking issues. "
"I'm one of those that had to send my SR15 in because of feeding problems. "
Problems with DD rifles:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254085
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67179
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=266522
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
Problems with LMT rifles:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2161333
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php?t19966.html
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=255253
Problems with KAC rifles:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74151&page=4
"My SR-15 is "in the shop" right now, getting looked at by KAC for short stroking issues. "
"I'm one of those that had to send my SR15 in because of feeding problems. "
No one (well, no one reasonable) here contends that the manufacturers of those rifles put out flawless products.
Problems with DD rifles:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254085
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67179
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=266522
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
Problems with LMT rifles:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2161333
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php?t19966.html
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=255253
Problems with KAC rifles:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74151&page=4
"My SR-15 is "in the shop" right now, getting looked at by KAC for short stroking issues. "
"I'm one of those that had to send my SR15 in because of feeding problems. "
What is your point?
Problems with DD rifles:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254085
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67179
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=266522
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
Problems with LMT rifles:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2161333
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php?t19966.html
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=255253
Problems with KAC rifles:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74151&page=4
"My SR-15 is "in the shop" right now, getting looked at by KAC for short stroking issues. "
"I'm one of those that had to send my SR15 in because of feeding problems. "
Those are all aftermarket brands.
Heavy Metal
03-08-11, 18:38
Problems with DD rifles:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254085
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67179
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=266522
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=104278
Problems with LMT rifles:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2161333
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/lofiversion/index.php?t19966.html
http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=255253
Problems with KAC rifles:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74151&page=4
"My SR-15 is "in the shop" right now, getting looked at by KAC for short stroking issues. "
"I'm one of those that had to send my SR15 in because of feeding problems. "
Of course you realize ther are proabally 50 AR pattern rifles sold for each SIG?
Those are all aftermarket brands.
This cracked me up :D
Really?? How often does "shit happen" with FN SCARs? Noveske N4s? Krebs AKs? FN P90s? Larue ARs?
Every gun has potential for issues, regardless of the quality of manufacture, its just a fact of life when working with tools that are as mechanically stressed as firearms. That said, when critical parts randomly snap in half, I'd call that inexcusable.
I'd say that many of the top tier manufacturers have had there share of failures. I've personally been affected by a couple of well known problems that should have been addressed at QC. The SCAR stock latch is a good example of a rather systemic problem that is going to need an aftermarket part to fix. My was broken when I opened at the FFL.
I think the real issue with the 556 is the fact that there are multiple quality issues that should have been fixed a long time ago.
Except for the fact the rear sight is backwards, I fully agree. Maybe Sig will see the light and one day rectify this.
Man I hope that is just a lazy photoshop and nobody actually welded a sight on backwards.
I detest MIM and all that it stands for. :mad:
Then you better stop buying guns, because almost every manufacture uses MIM parts now.
Then you better stop buying guns, because almost every manufacture uses MIM parts now.
I'm not aware of any MIM parts in Glocks. Does Colt use MIM parts in their AR's? Does Noveske?
I know that Kimber uses MIM parts in their 1911's. How do I know? Because I had one break on my early Custom Classic. I sold both Kimbers I owned shortly thereafter. We may never know the quality of every part in every gun we buy, but once we know that a part or parts aren't up to snuff, we correct the problem by replacing them or replacing the gun(s). Nuff said.
lloydkristmas
03-08-11, 21:48
Of course you realize ther are proabally 50 AR pattern rifles sold for each SIG?
EVERY manufacturer has issues. Even KAC and Larue put out lemons from time to time, it just happens. The issue is that Sig has consistently presented with issues, many of which are related to substandard manufacturing techniques and poor quality control. Even the best of the best can have problems, but with Sig, the problems are almost predictable, and really kill my confidence in the platform.
ETA the post I quoted has nothing really to do with the subject matter of my post....oops
I'm not aware of any MIM parts in Glocks. Does Colt use MIM parts in their AR's? Does Noveske?
I know that Kimber uses MIM parts in their 1911's. How do I know? Because I had one break on my early Custom Classic. I sold both Kimbers I owned shortly thereafter. We may never know the quality of every part in every gun we buy, but once we know that a part or parts aren't up to snuff, we correct the problem by replacing them or replacing the gun(s). Nuff said.
======================================
I want to say that I read a while back that an AR's Bolt Catch is MIM, as well as the trigger and hammer are made with an MIM process.
LMT uses an MIM Gas Key that has been trouble free, I believe for a few years.
The way I have had it explained is there are low quality and high quality MIM parts and the low quality parts generally give the MIM process a bad name. From what I've read, the MIM process was developed in the auto and aviation industry.
I remember Archie Bunker telling Edith after she offered him some cow tongue she had cooked, "Jeez, I don't want noffin' that come out no cow's mouth...just cook me a couple of eggs!"
But maybe it's just me...
.
I'm not aware of any MIM parts in Glocks. Does Colt use MIM parts in their AR's? Does Noveske?
I know that Kimber uses MIM parts in their 1911's. How do I know? Because I had one break on my early Custom Classic. I sold both Kimbers I owned shortly thereafter. We may never know the quality of every part in every gun we buy, but once we know that a part or parts aren't up to snuff, we correct the problem by replacing them or replacing the gun(s). Nuff said.
4th gen striker, locking blocks allegedly... Of course it's impossible to tell without actually breaking it. I know for a fact that Raytheon uses MIM parts :O
Any process that isnt done right will have problems. Forgings from China blow (PRC not Taiwan) in general because they have ZERO QC. The human component is essential in any manufacturing process.
That is what is particularly disturbing about Sig/Sauer in my opinion. Their European guns are slick as shit, some of the most beautiful pieces of machinery ever, then they try to push substandard product using their brand reputation.
That is what is particularly disturbing about Sig/Sauer in my opinion. Their European guns are slick as shit, some of the most beautiful pieces of machinery ever, then they try to push substandard product using their brand reputation.
I don't know about the SIG rifles, but SIG Germany uses MIM parts in their pistols too. Over at SIG forum, there have been several post of new triple serial numbered SIGs coming from Germany that aren't too "slick." My newer German P228R is my least favorite out my SIGs, and I strongly prefer my US made ones.
I don't know about the SIG rifles, but SIG Germany uses MIM parts in their pistols too. Over at SIG forum, there have been several post of new triple serial numbered SIGs coming from Germany that aren't too "slick." My newer German P228R is my least favorite out my SIGs, and I strongly prefer my US made ones.
I wasn't complaining about MIM.
Should have been more clear: When I think SIG I'm thinking of what is now Swiss Arms, i.e. older P210s, Stgw 57-02, 550.
variablebinary
03-09-11, 04:09
I detest MIM and all that it stands for. :mad:
As long as a company puts the time in to ensure quality materials are used, properly inspected and QC'ed, MIM is not the issue.
Bad examples of MIM use: Kimber and SIG. Guess what they have in common.
Never hire Cohen to run your gun company.
Heavy Metal
03-09-11, 09:57
======================================
I want to say that I read a while back that an AR's Bolt Catch is MIM, as well as the trigger and hammer are made with an MIM process.
LMT uses an MIM Gas Key that has been trouble free, I believe for a few years.
The way I have had it explained is there are low quality and high quality MIM parts and the low quality parts generally give the MIM process a bad name. From what I've read, the MIM process was developed in the auto and aviation industry.
I remember Archie Bunker telling Edith after she offered him some cow tongue she had cooked, "Jeez, I don't want noffin' that come out no cow's mouth...just cook me a couple of eggs!"
But maybe it's just me...
.
The Bolt Catch, Trigger and Hammer are castings and were designed as such in the 1950's. A proper(note I said proper) MIM version of these should actually be superior.
But you are not replacing a milling or a forging here either.
The Bolt Catch, Trigger and Hammer are castings and were designed as such in the 1950's. A proper(note I said proper) MIM version of these should actually be superior.
But you are not replacing a milling or a forging here either.
I've seen properly casted parts hold up better than cheaply made MIM parts. As you said, some parts were never desigened to be casted/MIM parts due to the stresses involved. Converting an old design with machined parts into MIM parts runs the risk of parts failures. A machined, heat treated part of specific dimensions is stronger than a casting or MIM and using a casting or MIM in place of it is moronic.
Not all MIM manufacturing is the same either. Different alloys are used depending on the desired strength/economy, which requires different heating and cooling proceedures. Then of course, larger grain metals are cheaper, but less durable in the final product than finer grains. There is also the element of quality control with the process which makes a huge difference. MIM is not necessarily a bad thing if it is done right(not Kimber/Sig style), but it isn't as durable as machined parts.
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