View Full Version : First 1911??
I am looking for a 1911. This will be my first so I have been searching for a great starter 1911. Most posts have SA, Kimber, and Colt's. Anyone of these better than the others for a newbie to the 1911 world? Thanks
wetidlerjr
03-14-11, 14:43
I am looking for a 1911. This will be my first so I have been searching for a great starter 1911. Most posts have SA, Kimber, and Colt's. Anyone of these better than the others for a newbie to the 1911 world? Thanks
Preferences in the 1911 world can be very subjective but I prefer Colt 1911s. Others, I'm sure, will disagree but it would be worth your while to take a look at the Colt line. I would suggest the Combat Elite or possibly the 5" 1991 model for a more basic pistol.
:D
VooDoo6Actual
03-14-11, 14:58
SA MC Operator
I like SA milspec. Simple and most smiths will except it for a build gun.
V/r
Uglyguns
Get what fits your budget and what "you" will be happy with. I literally searched this and a few other sites for nearly 3 months getting as much info as I could to help me make a choice that I would be happy with. I am the same way with most firearms related purchases I make. In the end if you are happy, then all should be good to go.
R3V3LATIONS
03-14-11, 17:15
Honestly with 1911's there is alot of information. Prior to buying one, it is important to know ahead of time that you are getting into a EXPENSIVE maintinance intensive work-aholic project of a pistol.
That being said, much much mucch research is required. Look at Hilton Yams articles on 10-8 performance.com and use the search function here to read all the 1911 threads you can handle. Trust me, you will need this information in your selection, no matter what purpose you intend to use your 1911 for.
In any case, I prefer a custom gun, for numerous reasons. If you have the money (2-3K), it is THE route to go, as most 1911's require trips to the smith (esp. if they are factory production guns) anyhow. If I were to go with a production gun, it would probably be a Springfield TRP or Operator. IMHO, they build some of the best production 1911's (things are fitted well, proper TDP is followed, and should you have a problem they have unparalleled customer service!)
In any case, I prefer a custom gun, for numerous reasons. If you have the money (2-3K), it is THE route to go, as most 1911's require trips to the smith (esp. if they are factory production guns) anyhow. If I were to go with a production gun, it would probably be a Springfield TRP or Operator. IMHO, they build some of the best production 1911's (things are fitted well, proper TDP is followed, and should you have a problem they have unparalleled customer service!)
I have looked at some custom 1911s from Wilson and Les Baer and most are $1500-$2000 more than say a SA MC Operator that some people have posted as a good starter 1911. Do the custom 1911s warrant twice as much $$?
memphisjim
03-14-11, 17:35
i suppose it would help to give some idea of what you intend to turn the pistol into
i myself would want a ww2 style one for the classic look
R3V3LATIONS
03-14-11, 18:22
what is nice about a custom 1911 is you can fix what many believe to be errors in the original design, more attention to the proper tune and fit of the gun, quality of parts, and the means of production on said quality parts is often better. For example, the Wilson extractor on some of their custom models is rounded and polished while special attention is given to make NO alterations to the hook angle and are fitted properly to the gun individually as opposed to by a machine ( which is actually one of the things people send 1911's to a smith for, re-tensioning of the extractor and its fit the firearm as it is key to 1911 reliability and universally important)
One other example is controlling how parts are placed on the frame. For example, the plunger tube on a Caspian frame is part of the cast, so that it is not for instance staked on. This helps becuase the plunger tube may become loose if staked on a 1911 after hard use, and when it becomes loose it is prone to "slipping" backwards and locking your gun on safe (a mild example)
To awnser that question truthfully, if you plan on running 1911's up to or past 50,000 rounds in practice or match, a custom gun is the way to go, for the above states and so many other small details that over time and round count gradually contribute in increasing amounts over time. So really, it depends on how serious a user you are and what you plan on doing with it. Much similar to the pattern of how if you are a plinker....buy a Del-Ton or a DPMS, but if your or others lives are on the line, or you just want QUALITY kit that will live to be enjoyed by generations, you go to the Noveske or Wilson Combat et. al.
MarshallDodge
03-14-11, 18:29
For a good basic 1911 I would recommend the Springfield Loaded or Desert Eagle 1911. Both are reasonably priced and should be shot quite a bit before deciding to carry.
If you have the cash then look for a Springfield TRP or Les Baer TRS (Thunder Ranch Special) in lightly used or new condition.
DDgunslinger
03-14-11, 19:51
Colt or Springfield
It's all about budget. If money is no object, you can go with a custom shop (Wilson, Nighthawk, etc.). However, Springfield puts out a good 1911 at a reasonable price.
things are fitted well, proper TDP is followed,
Not exactly.
OP,
Much depends on what you want the 1911 for, what do you hope to gain by going to a 1911.
If you want a "basic" GI style gun, for playin around at the range, the SA "GI", mil-spec or a Colt 1991 are good choices.
if you want a gun for serious self defense or duty use, that's a whole other ball of wax, and you would be well advised to look over at 10-8 performance and 10-8 forums. Also plan on a 1911 operators course from LAV
The Colt Rail gun and SA MC operator are good starting points, as they have a rail, and I'm a huge believer in a weapon mounted light.
You could also surf the forums and gunbroker, and local shops for a good clean used gun, from one of the big makers, such as Wilson, SA Proshop, Baer, etc.
Bob
The 1911 will be used in multiple situations. First will be to a 1911 course the main reason for the purchase then HD. I have been to a few carbine/handgun training courses and a good handful of people including the instructors (Ken Hackathorn, LAV, etc.) mainly carry 1911s. That is why the intrigue. I don't mind paying $2800 for a Wilson CQB but want to know that it is worth the extra $1500 over a SA MC Operator. Should I just buy a factory gun and later upgrade where and when I see that needs improvement. I know you can customize the 1911 to the teeth but will all those custom parts make a difference as a fighting pistol. I know a good barrel, bushing, trigger, fit and finish are important things. But for me I feel reliability is paramount over a custom part that is better looking than that of a factory gun but less reliable. Also having a rail for a weapon light is a option that I do like in a 1911.
R3V3LATIONS
03-14-11, 23:55
I have noticed the differences, but then that is coming from me and my experience in the platform. In your case, you could go either way and have it be beneficial. How much of a differnce is noticed is usually dependant upon shooter experience and personal shooting preferance IMHO. But Im not the one buying the gun. For your needs, the MC Operator would probably be a great starting gun of decent quality to take to classes and use for HD.
Whatever route you choose to go, take reputable good classes from the likes of Hack and LAV, keep up on the maintinance (I recommend logs) and enjoy the firearm.
Automatic COLT Pistol
welcome to the centenial
Have you asked Ken and LAV why they are shooting 1911's? What about the other shooters?
Many people have no idea why they are shooting a 1911, it usually amounts to, its what the cool guys shoot. or at least its what they think the cool guys shoot.
There is no magic to them, they have nice, easily tuned triggers, that make them very easy to shoot well. LAV has called them a crutch for poor marksmanship. Many of them come with tighter clearances and match barrels, which also make them shoot very well. That comes at a price though.
LAV, at least, does not generally recommend them.
For what you want, a Colt rail gun or MC operator, would be good choices. You get a modern style 1911, that starts to maximize the guns potential. They give you some room to mod the gun as you like to really maximize the guns potential. Or, if you decide you don't like the gun, they will retain a good portion of their value.
FWIW, LAV stated he thought buying a complete gun and is proven reliable, and then tuning it, was better then a ground up build. He also said Colts were excellent platforms to build on.
HTH,
Bob
wetidlerjr
03-15-11, 06:15
Have you asked Ken and LAV why they are shooting 1911's? What about the other shooters?
...Many people have no idea why they are shooting a 1911...
HTH,
Bob
Good questions !
I shoot (and carry) 1911s because I like how they look, I carried one in Vietnam, I am more than reasonably accurate with them, I trust my ability to use them, I understand how they function and I can maintain and do minor repair on them. The preceding reasons are not in any particular order. I don't care (beyond curiosity) what anyone else shoots or carries as, most likely, they will not be with me when I have to defend myself. One can carry what one can shoot properly and defend themselves with. Or not. I am easy to get along with when it's not my business. As always, YMMV.
Also, polymer framed pistols have no soul; the 1911 does. :D
memphisjim
03-15-11, 07:45
Is colt worth the extra 200?
wetidlerjr
03-15-11, 07:54
Is colt worth the extra 200?
Depends on the models you are comparing and the money you have to spend. :cool:
Pistol Shooter
03-15-11, 09:34
Is colt worth the extra 200?
I think they are. Colts tend to hold their value better than some of their competitors.
turdbocharged
03-17-11, 09:43
If I was getting my first 1911 again I would probably choose the Colt 1991 stainless. They are relatively inexpensive, reliable, durable, and come with decent 3 dot sights, compared to the crappy low sights that came on my Series 70 reproduction. My buddy just got a stainless 1991 and I love that thing. I feel like I would be more prone to shoot the hell out of it and throw it in a truck and not worry about anything.
taekwondopreacher
03-17-11, 19:07
I would say that the Colts are worth the extra money over a lower priced gun if for nothing else the small parts quality. According to gunsmiths, the parts in Colts typically hold up very well to long term use(3,000+ rounds) compared to cheaper or "as good as" pistols.
I would say that the Colts are worth the extra money over a lower priced gun if for nothing else the small parts quality. According to gunsmiths, the parts in Colts typically hold up very well to long term use(3,000+ rounds) compared to cheaper or "as good as" pistols.
Who did you hear this from? I appreciate Colts more than other similarly priced 1911s, so I am just curious.
taekwondopreacher
03-17-11, 22:46
I was going to send in a Kimber once to Cylinder and Slide because they told me the internal parts would probably(and eventually they did) need to be replaced with better parts.
Go to www.10-8performance.com and read Hilton Yam's articles on the 1911, particularly the article on Choosing a 1911 For Duty Use. He has on several occasions said that Colt makes its parts correctly. While there are lesser 1911's that may run, Colts are built to run, and their small parts quality is part of that success. Not promising that your Colt might not need a small tuning, as many 1911's do here or there. But while you can always do more to your Colt to suit your liking, it will never be less than a Colt. You could also try talking to Steve Morrison, if he builds on a different brand of pistol, he tends to need to replace more parts than he does when he uses a Colt for his custom build.
I don't mean to be one sided in my opinion, but if you intend to get into 1911's, it is simply a very good idea to start with a new 5 inch Colt as your minimum for quality. For a few hundred dollars more that the "cheapest you can get", you would making a very good investment with today's manufactured Colts. Like I said, you can always go up from there if you want to add features. But it isn't a bad idea to get yourself a 5 inch Colt, and start there. It may be all you end up needing.
I think any 5 inch Colt is probably fine. I also like the MC Operator and TRP from Springfield.
I have two Springfields and two Kimbers, and all of them have been reliable and accurate guns. I like Colts too, but the only ones available in my local gun shop have the 80 Series firing pin block, and I cannot stand how it makes the trigger feel.
I prefer no firing pin block, but the Kimber's Schwartz safety is tolerable.
I was going to send in a Kimber once to Cylinder and Slide because they told me the internal parts would probably(and eventually they did) need to be replaced with better parts.
Go to www.10-8performance.com and read Hilton Yam's articles on the 1911, particularly the article on Choosing a 1911 For Duty Use. He has on several occasions said that Colt makes its parts correctly. While there are lesser 1911's that may run, Colts are built to run, and their small parts quality is part of that success. Not promising that your Colt might not need a small tuning, as many 1911's do here or there. But while you can always do more to your Colt to suit your liking, it will never be less than a Colt. You could also try talking to Steve Morrison, if he builds on a different brand of pistol, he tends to need to replace more parts than he does when he uses a Colt for his custom build.
I don't mean to be one sided in my opinion, but if you intend to get into 1911's, it is simply a very good idea to start with a new 5 inch Colt as your minimum for quality. For a few hundred dollars more that the "cheapest you can get", you would making a very good investment with today's manufactured Colts. Like I said, you can always go up from there if you want to add features. But it isn't a bad idea to get yourself a 5 inch Colt, and start there. It may be all you end up needing.
I've read Mr. Yam's articles and I don't disagree with you. Like I said before, I prefer Colts too. That being said, I have seen many custom builds on other makes besides Colt. More specifically, Springfield Armory seems to be another popular option when making a custom build off an already built production gun. As to quality internals on a production gun Colt is clearly one of the best, but I believe many custom smiths replace some of these parts anyway. If I'm wrong about that last statement then I apologize.
I have two Springfields and two Kimbers, and all of them have been reliable and accurate guns. I like Colts too, but the only ones available in my local gun shop have the 80 Series firing pin block, and I cannot stand how it makes the trigger feel.
I prefer no firing pin block, but the Kimber's Schwartz safety is tolerable.
Interesting, as most smiths I've talked to disagree. Most don't care, and don't have an issue with Series 80's parts.
Even the above mentioned Hilton Yam, prefers a series 80 over the Schwartz, if you have to have a firing pin block. He reports seeing many incorrectly timed schwartz safeties.
I don't think it that there are no builds on brands other then Colt, only that the Colt will require fewer parts to be replaced.
Larry Vickers, has also commented that Colts are excellent guns to build on.
Bob
wetidlerjr
03-18-11, 07:39
... I like Colts too, but the only ones available in my local gun shop have the 80 Series firing pin block, and I cannot stand how it makes the trigger feel.
I prefer no firing pin block, but the Kimber's Schwartz safety is tolerable.
You must be one in ten thousand. I have never felt anything in an Series 80 Colt that has had it's trigger reworked. As for Kimbers and the Schwartz safety, since I can't say anything nice, I won't say anything. :D
I am looking for a 1911. This will be my first so I have been searching for a great starter 1911. Most posts have SA, Kimber, and Colt's. Anyone of these better than the others for a newbie to the 1911 world? Thanks
Keep your eye out for a Colt 1911A1 series 70. Government or Commander length,whatever your preference. Just my opinion but if you shop around a find an older Colt in very good shape i don`t think you will be disappointed.
varoadking
03-18-11, 19:39
...the Schwartz safety...
That anything like a circumcisiom?
Thank you all for the comments on this thread. I am heading out to a gun show today to look at a few 1911's.
my simple take on this:
Kimber- a lot of stories and I have seen a bunch of kimbers choke. They seem to reaaly vary- some run great and others seem to refuse to run.
Springfield good quality and customer service rep but a foreign made gun essentially. I have nothing against them in general as long as you realize yyou are buying a non american 1911 which jsut seems wrong to me.(incidentally all the sub 600 dollar 1911's on the marker today as new guns are foreign made, regardless of what names the marketing gurus use to conceal that fact.)
Colt- good quality long history of building guns right including small parts and the #1 choice of custom smiths for builds. And I like U.S. made.
All the 1911's I have ever had (over a dozen) the single non colt was a sistema.
I've got a series I Kimber that I like a lot but if I were to do it again, I think my first 1911 (or next 1911 in my case) would be a SA Milspec and then build it the way I want over time with after-market parts.
If I were buying a first 1911 today, here's what I'd get:
If I had the budget:
* A Springfield Pro
If I was on a tighter budget:
* The new Colt Rail Gun
* A Springfield MC Operator or Lightweight Operator
In the case of the last two, I'd have them gone over by a smith who specializes in 1911's for a "reliability" package. Some think this isn't necessary: I don't care. I've seen a slightly higher incidence of failures and problems on these lower end guns; they can be great guns, but it's worth a few bucks to have them tuned up if you're going to use them for social work.
I have had a bad experience with Springfield. A champion that I had was a jamo-matic and I tried everything. New/different mags, recoil springs and finally I sent it back to SA. Came back to me without a difference. Colt has been very good to me. I think the extra money is worth it, Colt has exceptional CS. Look around, read, ask questions. You will not be disappointed with Colt.
Springfield MC Operator or Colt Rail Gun
I'd buy it used - they're usually tons cheaper if they come with the idiot mark pre-installed, and you won't have to worry about marring up the finish yourself. Still very glad I went this route myself.
What TL above said. I would also consider a Series I 5 inch, all steel Kimber Custom Classic if you could fine one.
One suggestion would be to get to a range and give a trial shot of 1911s. I love my Colt, but I really wish I would have gotten a extended beavertail (Hammer bite).
Anywho on to my 0.02.
Kimber: 2nd Gen has had spotty quality problems plus there is the "break in" period. Initial Kimbers were "the in thing" but that was a while ago and recent offerings have not lived up to that hype. A lot of gunstores push Kimbers as the Cadillac of 1911s. I'm not the fan I once was of these.
Colt: I own a 1991A1. Hardware snobs don't like it. Paper doesn't offer any complaints and the operator has had 0 malfuctions through 1000rds including 200 rounds SWC. Be careful you don't pay extra for the "Pony" but it is a high quality gun, and I do not believe there are any "Avoids" in their offering.
Springfield: I own a compact. You may get more gun for the price with Springfield. They have great customer service which compensates for Colt's better Quality. Springfield is shade a grey less than Colt for quality.
My recommendation: By a Springfield or Colt in your price range with the features you want.
vBulletin® v3.7.2, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.