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motoduck
03-15-11, 13:39
I have only been reloading for a couple of years, mostly pistol and some 223/5.56 for the ARs. I am buying a 300 AAC upper and want to start reloading for it as well.
I am confused about the process of forming 300 AAC brass from 223/5.56 brass. I am looking at a set of Forster dies (full length sizing, Seating). Will these dies expand the case neck from a .22 to a .30? Or, do I need to purchase a seperate case neck expander, expand the neck then size and trim the cases?

Stormrider
03-16-11, 00:26
None of the above.
The 300 case is substantially shorter than the 223 so you have to trim it down to just above the body/shoulder junction.
If you use the 221 Fireball case you just expand it in two steps using a good lube, (tapered expanders are supplied with the die set) and your good to go.

But with new and already trimmed and sized 223 brass available, why would you want to go to all the trouble?

motoduck
03-16-11, 08:15
Stormrider,
Thanks for responding. I assume by this quote you are saying 300 AAC brass is available to purchase? I have not been able to find any brass and only limited amounts of factory loaded ammo. Am I missing the boat on a source?


But with new and already trimmed and sized 223 brass available, why would you want to go to all the trouble?

As for reloading and reforming brass. I do not have any 221 fireball brass but I have tens of thousands of 223/556 cases, that is why I was headed that direction. I am still confused by the "reforming" process. I use a Giraud trimmer. When reloading 223/556, I size my cases then trim, then reload. Are you saying I have to "rough" trim the cases, resize and then "retrim" them so they are the correct size?

Tapered expanders are supplied with the Forster dies and I can expand the case necks of 223/556 brass (not 221 fireball) with out purcasing additional neck expander?

motoduck
03-16-11, 10:13
I did finally see the post about CMMG selling primed brass. I will buy some of this but I still want to roll some of my own.

Stormrider
03-16-11, 15:17
Didn't realize you were going to use a power trimmer. My comment was referenced to trimming one case at a time. (ugh!) Power trimmers are great.

I have never used a Giraud trimmer but have heard good things about them. I believe, from what I've read, that they space off the shoulder of the case, so I think you would need to resize first without the expander ball in the die and then trim. After it's trimmed the mouth of the case will fit over the expander ball in the sizing die, especially if it is tapered.

Since you have a lot of 223/5.56 brass, I agree that that is the cheapest way to get 300 BO brass. It's the way I got my 300/221 Fireball brass using a Dillon Rapidtrim.

Matt-man
03-17-11, 01:36
The .300 BLK case is so much shorter than the .223 that the case mouth on the .300 BLK is below where the shoulder is on a .223. As I understand it, the forming process is to run the .223 brass into a .300 BLK sizing die without the expander ball. This creates a new shoulder and a .30 case mouth way down into the .223 case body. Then trim to length (roughly 1.400", I don't have the exact .300 BLK specs). You end up trimming off the .223 case down below the original .223 shoulder.

Here's some info on forming .300-221/.300 Whisper which illustrates the process: http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/300-221.shtml

One problem I see with trimming these on a Giraud is the V-shaped cutter that the Giraud uses. You generally set up the cutter for a particular case mouth diameter. Since you have to cut all the way down through the original .223 shoulder, there's no single diameter that you can use to set up the cutter. This isn't something I've actually tried, just thought about, so maybe Doug Giraud has a solution for this particular problem.

Stormrider
03-17-11, 02:30
...You generally set up the cutter for a particular case mouth diameter... maybe Doug Giraud has a solution for this particular problem.
If he doesn't have a solution for it then you can take a coping saw or hacksaw blade and cut the case roughly to length in the forming die and then trim it with the Giraud.


Stormrider,
...Are you saying I have to "rough" trim the cases, resize and then "retrim" them so they are the correct size?

Not exactly, but you will have to form with the form die, rough trim and retrim with the Giraud and then run them through the sizer die. So you'll need three dies. A form/trim die, a sizer die and a seating die.

Good luck with it.

motoduck
03-17-11, 06:29
Thanks for the insight. I have a better general understanding at this point. I can see this is going to be one of those things that becomes clear (and I hope simple?) once you do it a few times.

Stormrider
03-17-11, 08:22
It'll be tedious... I've done it more than a few times... Which is why I got the trim die for the Dillon.:D

TommyG
03-17-11, 12:28
Discussion and photos of the process at this site:

http://www.bradswarehouse.com/

Click on the Services tab he also talks about Giraud trimming the brass.

I was curious about the process too. The photos at the bottom of the main page give a simple view of how he is forming then trimming the brass.

mattmcg
03-23-11, 01:18
I was concerned about the same thing with simply resizing 223 Rem brass to make 300 AAC brass. I use a Giraud power trimmer and actually sent Doug the specs for the chambering reamer to have a 300 AAC case head made. I'm still waiting to hear back from him but he said he was going to think it through.

Possible solutions are a flat cutter to cut to a certain length and then back it up with the V cutter to finish it off.

After seeing the Remington brass head out of the shop though, I'm actually more interested in tracking that down here in short order. Still would like the Giraud case head though......

motoduck
03-23-11, 07:26
Mattmcg,

I ordered a cutter from Giraud for the 300 Whisper. I am assuming I will have to do some sort rough trim/cut and use the Giraud for my final. It will be a couple of weeks before I can get everything set up and figured it out.

As far as Remington brass goes, I ordered 2K of primmed brass to get my reloading started. I ordered it from Allen Arms, info below.


Allen Arms Inc.
1210 Poinsett Hwy
Greenville,SC 29609
Phone-864-250-2007
Randall@allenarmstactical.com

chadbag
03-23-11, 12:03
Since you have a lot of 223/5.56 brass, I agree that that is the cheapest way to get 300 BO brass. It's the way I got my 300/221 Fireball brass using a Dillon Rapidtrim.

How did you use the Dillon Rapid Trim for this? The smallest case you can do is about 223 on it. They have a separate trimmer system for 6.8SPC and 7.62x39 due to this.

TIA

Stormrider
03-24-11, 00:02
How did you use the Dillon Rapid Trim for this? The smallest case you can do is about 223 on it. They have a separate trimmer system for 6.8SPC and 7.62x39 due to this.

TIA
Dillon only carries the more popular dies for the Rapid Trim.

I called CH4D and ordered a Whisper die for the Dillon. It also needed an extended shell holder, and the combination works pretty well. I put a fired 223/5.56 case in the shellholder and run it up into the die. What comes out is a fully sized and trimmed 300 Whisper.

However, I don't think you can go any shorter than that.

CH4D will also make dies for 7.62x39 and 6.5 G. I suspect that the 6.8 can be made to work too, though I haven't inquired about it, yet. I will when I need to start trimming 6.8.

chadbag
03-24-11, 00:08
Dillon only carries the more popular dies for the Rapid Trim.

I called CH4D and ordered a Whisper die for the Dillon. It also needed an extended shell holder, and the combination works a treat. I put a fired case in the shellholder and run it up into the die. What comes out is a fully sized and trimmed 300 Whisper.

CH4D will also make dies for 7.62x39 and 6.5 G. I suspect that the 6.8 can be made to work too, though I haven't inquired about it, yet. I will when I need to start trimming 6.8.

Ok. I have talked with them about 6.8 trim die before.

Looks like you have to use a single stage with it then if you need an extended shell holder.

Thanks!

mattmcg
03-24-11, 03:56
Mattmcg,

I ordered a cutter from Giraud for the 300 Whisper. I am assuming I will have to do some sort rough trim/cut and use the Giraud for my final. It will be a couple of weeks before I can get everything set up and figured it out.

As far as Remington brass goes, I ordered 2K of primmed brass to get my reloading started. I ordered it from Allen Arms, info below.


Allen Arms Inc.
1210 Poinsett Hwy
Greenville,SC 29609
Phone-864-250-2007
Randall@allenarmstactical.com

Thanks Motoduck. Please report back once you've had a chance to try out the 300 Whisper items. Did you just get the cutter or both the cutter and case holder?

And will follow up on the Remmy brass as well.....

motoduck
03-24-11, 05:54
Thanks Motoduck. Please report back once you've had a chance to try out the 300 Whisper items. Did you just get the cutter or both the cutter and case holder?


I purchased the cutter and the case holder. My work schedule is a little rough at the moment. Hopefully I will get a chance to try things out in the next couple of weeks.

Stormrider
03-24-11, 08:39
Ok. I have talked with them about 6.8 trim die before.

Looks like you have to use a single stage with it then if you need an extended shell holder.

Thanks!
Yes, I forgot to mention that.
And...
Your welcome.

Matt-man
03-25-11, 00:24
On another forum, one gentleman said he's using this mini cutoff saw for his rough cut:

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/cutoff-saws/bench-top-cut-off-saw-42307.html

For $25 it looks like it'd sure beat any hand saw I could come up with.

BradL45
03-27-11, 00:07
I've trimmed a few 300 Blackout cases.

I use a Dillon 1050 with a 300 Whisper Trim die from C4HD. With the trim die in the press, and the press in the compressed position, the window of the trim die is encapsulated inside the tool head, you can trim a few cases, but then you need to clean out the chips. The Blackout makes lots of chips :)

To fix this, I had 1/2 inch of toolhead removed so I can place the blue collar(vac attachment) that comes with RT1200 Trimmer around the trim die. Before I had my toolhead cut, I was able to trim Blackout cases with the short shaft RT1200 trimmer(long shaft is for the 6.8spc, 7.62x39, etc.). With the tool head modified, I can still use a regular RT1200(short shaft). This is the easy way to make Blackout brass, and the RT1200 is worth it's weight in gold when it come to trimming any caliber where the cases number above 100 to beyond. The Blackout trimming is hard on the trimmers and cutting blades.

I also have a Giraud trimmer, it's another great reloading tool, big thanks for Doug G. The 300 Whisper setup works fine for trimming formed and cut down cases. Doug sends the unit setup for the Whisper, so you'll need to adjust trim length, I trim to 1.358-60. Max case length is 1.368, Min 1.348. Most Remington Brass comes in at 1.360-62. I'm not crimping any bullets, so the extra length in the neck holds the 30 cal pills nice, I also don't use the expander ball, and I have great neck tension.

Thoughts on the Giraud for making 300 Blackout. Set up in Whisper mode, the Giraud will only trim a 30 cal case neck, and the Blackout cases are really short when in the Giraud, and are hard to hold on too vs a 223 or 308 case. I haven't done either of these steps, so just my ideas for making Blackout's with a Giraud.

1. Cut cases below the shoulder of a 223 case(band saw, chop saw, etc.), put through a 300 Blackout die OR 221/300 Fireball OR 300 Whisper sizing die(from SSK), that will get them looking like the Formed case in the below picture.

http://www.bradswarehouse.com/web_images/Cases_01.jpg

I think it would be wise to debur the case and try to get a clean edge on the case mouth before putting the case in the Giraud(kind of a backwards step I know), the Giraud's cutting blade is a channel in a carbide blade, and a jagged edge will be tough to trim in the Giraud, and that's if you can hold the case with your hand. The Giraud then trims and leaves a very nice edge and makes reloading the case easy.

2. if you have a 221/300 Fireball dies by Redding(my fav die's for the Blackout), they have 2 expanders in the die set, IIRC, one goes form 22 cal to 6mm, then 6mm to 30 cal, I can post some images tomorrow. Once you have the brass necked up to 30 cal, and the case has been formed into a Blackout, the Giraud should make short work of removing the 1/4 of extra case, and you'll have ready to load Blackouts. Other hand trimmers could also remove the excess brass material.

Other Ideas are a Possum hollow trimmer and a drill press, get a formed case and let a cutter on the press cut to length.

If you need dies, the Forster ones are scarce, I'd recommend backordering a set, and if your not one to wait, find some 221/300 Fireball dies by Redding.

Crimping, my 300 Blackout dies from Forster don't have a crimp feature. My Redding dies, the crimp is for brass cut to a 1.40 case, so it's in the wrong place. If you send lee a dummy round, they will make you a Factory crimp die for $25 plus $5 shipping, 6-8 week lead time.

Pipe cutters also will cut brass, and leave a nice edge, then trimmed to length by most case trimmers.

Brad
www.BradsWarehouse.com
Salt Lake City, Utah

motoduck
03-28-11, 07:04
Brad,

Great info, thanks for the help!

rsilvers
04-03-11, 18:43
Redding told me they fixed the crimp feature last fall. There is some chance if you buy some dies made recently they will crimp.

BradL45
04-03-11, 18:58
I had a 2 die set delivered on Friday from Gunstop, I will look at the crimp location on Monday and report back.

I'll also shoot an Email to Gunstop and see if they can age the dies.

**EDIT**


The Dies I got in the mail have the crimp feature, and it works great on my brass that is cut to 1.360"

Crimp is Way over done in Image, but I was testing to see you much crimp I could apply.

These Redding dies, and the Forster 300 Blackout dies had no trouble seating this little 110 V-max below the 2.000 mark, normal seating is longer than 2.000

https://sites.google.com/site/xr650rsale/_/rsrc/1301959562491/home/pic_02/Redding300_221_Crimp_01.jpg

BradL45
04-03-11, 19:05
I worked over some LC 5.56 brass with the expander;s in the Redding 300/221 die set.

Use lube inside the case mouth. I did trim one with the Giraud, but it's hard to hold straight die to the shoulder not being held in the trimmer until the end of the operation.

Necking up then running through another trimmer should work well(right size pilot will make it easy).

https://sites.google.com/site/xr650rsale/_/rsrc/1301512111112/home/Expand_Blackout_01.jpg

Polymerhead
07-05-11, 20:12
I have only been reloading for a couple of years, mostly pistol and some 223/5.56 for the ARs. I am buying a 300 AAC upper and want to start reloading for it as well.
I am confused about the process of forming 300 AAC brass from 223/5.56 brass. I am looking at a set of Forster dies (full length sizing, Seating). Will these dies expand the case neck from a .22 to a .30? Or, do I need to purchase a seperate case neck expander, expand the neck then size and trim the cases?

I just wanted to bump this with some more info, since there is so much buzz about the 300 blk and not a ton of specific info. You can't form brass from 221 fireball with a Forster die set. I bought a set the other day with some 221 Fireball brass since it was in stock. It's a no-go.

Before someone yells "duh!" my theory wasn't completely off base. Some sets like the Redding die set have multi-step tapered expanders that work for the up-necking. The Forster set has a ball-type expander that isn't tapered enough for this.

The Forster set seems to be very good quality and I will keep it and just wait for some 300 AAC brass I suppose, unless I get bored and buy a cutoff saw and go to work on some of my 223 Rem brass.

Hope it helps.

BradL45
07-05-11, 20:40
Midway is showing that Remington brass will be in stock on July 15th, and Back orders are OK, I would guess that it will sell out quick unless a large amount gets to Midway. I already have my order in. It's about $25 per 100(plus shipping so order lots of bullets at the same time) and it's primed, which is cheap for factory Brass.

I've loaded ammo on both the Forster Dies, and the Redding dies, they both make good ammo.

Soon 300 Blackout trim dies for the Dillon RT trimmer will be for sale, it one of the quickest ways to convert 5.56 brass to 300 BLK.

m4fun
07-08-11, 21:41
Tagging for future ref.

Great thread on a caliber I may be very interested in!

Polymerhead
07-12-11, 18:58
Just an update - I borrowed a Redding size die with the two expanders, and easily formed 100 pieces of 221 Fireball brass to 300 Whisper (AAC) in about 20 minutes. Installed the smaller expander, Quick shot of Hornady one-shot case lube and ran them all through. Then switched out expanders, one more shot of one-shot and had 100 pieces of perfectly-formed brass.

ETA: 1.360" after sizing; within the 1.348" - 1.368" length window. No trimming needed as far as I can tell.