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SteyrAUG
04-11-11, 02:21
I was asked to do this topic some time ago in order to provide guidance to those who might be looking for one so they know what to look for and what to avoid. My problem in putting it together was to not simply write "Buy a preban HK 91 original and be done with it." The reality is there really aren't the same kind of options like there are with FALs and AKs where you have a variety of quality options to choose from. But there are a few so I will do my best.

I have been shooting .308 Hk rifles from the time I was about 13 and I think I currently own about 20 or so including pre89 semi auto imports of HK and HK contract rifle, select fire HK and HK contract rifles that are conversions and a few factory original select fire HK rifles and HK contract rifles.

Here are a few.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8499/00000000197.jpg

Ok, first things first, I will be discussing four categories of rifles.

1. Factory original - These are HKs made in Germany, or in the case of CETME rifles those made in Spain.

2. Contract rifles - These are rifles made in HK contract factories set up by HK, using HK tooling.

3. Builds - These are rifles built in the US using HK or HK contract receivers and mostly HK or HK contract parts with enough US parts for 922r compliance.

4. Clones - These are aftermarket copies of rifles using non HK receivers and often using non HK parts.

I'm not going to get into the history and development of the HK rifle, that could easily result in a four page post and the information is already out there. Here are the books you want to read.

Full Circle: A Treatise on Roller Locking by Blake Stevens

The official history of the Oberndorf company Heckler & Koch by Manfred Kersten

Small Arms of the World by Edward Clinton Ezell

I will also confine this topic to the subject of semi auto rifles. I will not be discussing pre 86 dealer sample, pre 68 transferable imports or any other "from the factory" select fire .308 rifles. I will also not be discussing semi auto rifles in the context of pre 86 Title II conversions.

Obviously factory original rifles are your best option. But they are also the most desirable on most expensive option in most cases. The HK 91 (9 representing the 90 series of semi auto imports and the 1 denoting the .308 caliber) is basically a semi auto copy of the HK G3 (Gewehr 3) select fire military rifle. There have been a few versions from the early rare 1962 G3 semi imports, to the HK41 (40 series being the original semi auto classification used by HK) up to the 91 series and the later "sporter" post ban models.

The HK 91 differs from the G3 in the following ways:

1. Has a clip and pin trigger group that sits on a receiver shelf rather than a swing down trigger group that attaches with a push pin. Trigger group also usually has a block on the selector preventing movement to the third position (steel trigger groups).

2. Has a trigger box mechanism specifically set up for semi auto function only.

3. Has a milled slot in the bolt carrier that will not engage a sear catch.

4. Has the grenade launching rings removed from the barrel.

5. Bayonet mount has been removed.

6. Lacks a paddle magazine release.

7. Has a black (early imports are blue / gray) enamel finish rather than the green / gray parkerized finish encountered on most military G3 rifles.

But other than those differences they are essentially the same in performance and function.

For factory original rifles you have a few options.

The HK91 (Oberndorf manufacture) imported from 1974 until 1989. Post 89 "sporter" import versions include the HK911, SR9. SR9T, SR9 TC. The sporter models are basically variations of thumbhole stock rifles.

The Springfield SAR3/8 - Hellenic Arms (EBO) Greek HK contract imported by Springfield (beware there are many post 89 clones sold as SAR 8s which are NOT HK contracts but US clones). Pre89 versions include the SAR 3 and a SAR 8 (overstamp). Post 89 "sporter" versions are the SAR 8 with thumbhole stock and fake flash hider pressed on the barrel.

US clone versions of the Springfield SAR 8 have aluminum receivers with a integral top scope rail and are marked Federal, not EBO Greece.

The FMP G3S - Portuguese HK contract rifles imported by PARS. Post 89 imports such as the XG3S have clipped off flash hiders and are usually found in a thumbhole stock configuration.

CETME "sport" models - Spanish rifles imported by MARS that were a forerunner to the HK rifles. Thus these are factory original rifles and not an HK contract rifle. Primarily different with respect to rear sight configuration, safety setup, bayonet mount and issued magazine.

Like the Springfield SAR 8 there are many US clone versions of the CETME, factory original rifles are marked Made in Spain.

Any of the above HK or HK contract rifles would be a quality and reliable firearm. HK contracts generally sell for less than HK factory rifles. Ironically HK factory "sporter" imports now command prices higher than HK 91 rifles due to rarity.

In addition to the above factory original and HK contract rifles there are many builds done in the US. Semi auto HK contract receivers were imported during the 1990s from Portugal. There were two importers Interport Delta, UT (receivers marked Portugal) and Century Arms (Receivers marked Indep/Portugal). These were usually built using one of the surplus HK or FMP parts kits that flooded the market in the late 90s. Condition of kits ranged from New/Excellent condition to Fair/Poor. The resulting rifle would depend upon the quality of the parts kit used and the competence of the gunsmith who did the build.

Most of these were built during the Clinton Semi Auto ban and can be identified by permanently mounted muzzle brakes for compliance. 922r compliance parts were generally low quality and were usually manufactured by Special Weapons, FAC, CAI or Heese. Nearly all of them were built with factory original barrels (except for Special Weapons SW3 rifles) and if the build is a quality one the brake can usually be removed and replaced with a flash hide and better grade 922r compliance parts substituted. That said, these rifles can be a gamble and builds, like the parts kits used, ranged from excellent to poor.

There are also reports of Portuguese sporter rifles which were brought it by Inter Ordnance (and a few other importers) who then added 922r compliance parts to make them legal semi autos. You have to be very careful with such claims. Century Arms for example offered a Portuguese "import rifle" that was nothing more than a low grade kit build on one of their imported receivers. It can be exceptionally difficult to distinguish a rifle that was imported and brought into compliance from an imported bare receiver that was built into a compliance rifle.

US clones are rifles using non factory and non contract receivers. For the most part these are not made to HK spec and most clone parts are also not HK spec. The quality has improved since they were first introduced in the late 90s. That said they are still the most problematic of all the HK type rifles. For customers looking for cheap HK rifles in the $500 range I usually recommend they give me $200 to let me hit them with a metal folding chair for 5 minutes and it will be the same frustration as owning a HK clone rifle for a lot less money.

The exception to the rule are the JLD/PTR rifles. These almost qualify as US contract rifles since they purchased the tooling and presses from FMP (Portuguese HK contract factory). The problem is they don't produce a correct contract rifle but their own version of the HK contract rifle. These differences are usually intended to improve inherent accuracy and things like that. The problem is there is a cost to using non spec parts and early JLD guns were notorious for function issues as a result. From many accounts things have greatly improved but I don't have any first hand information to support that assessment.

Other .308 HK clones from Century Arms, Federal Arms, Special Weapons are all consistently problematic and should be avoided.

Sadly, unlike AKs and FALs there is no "just as good as the original" currently available option. There is a currently imported MKE (Turkish Contract) .308 rifle but it has severe configuration changes to make it importable such as a modified magazine well to accept a 10 round ONLY magazine and a trigger group that is attached to the buttstock. You could correct this with 922r compliance but the gunsmithing would be bit too involved for most people and you could buy an early contract rifle for the same money invested.

armakraut
04-11-11, 03:28
PTR "GI" rifles supposedly have the correct number of flutes and the right contour now. They still lack the grenade ring on the triple frame and the paddle release, which only the early HK and CETME imports had.

My earlier production JLD/PTR fed everything well and I've read that the early CETME's didn't even have flutes, but were put in some time during the model C run. PTR's other US parts (the fire control group and navy housing) are universally well regarded in quality. The receiver is made on FMP semi-auto tooling and is the only in-spec G3 receiver on the market.

The BATFE changed their mind and banned all MKE carbines from import (no 9mm, 5.56 or 7.62), the pistols will continue to be imported. MKE pistols and carbines started life as military spec weapons (possibly used in some cases) and were modified before import.

Century rifles usually have two problems (or a combination of two problems), US barrels and improperly set barrels. They try to fix the latter in the build process by doing everything except the only thing that will actually correct the problem they created (IE putting the barrel in correctly). They ship a lot of rifles with next to no bolt gap, bad barrels, the wrong size rollers, crap receivers, or improperly ground bolts. Fixable? Errr, sort of. Sometimes a competent gunsmith can fix them, and sometimes the smith will tell you they're going to beat the pavement with your wondermonkey rifle. The HK33's century rebuilt seem to have been on average much more serviceable than all the good G3 and CETME kits they butchered.

Oh yeah, one last thing with the century guns, the sights are regularly crooked, reaaally crooked, unadjustably crooked. In short, I've never known anybody who ever got a working century CETME, but I don't know too many people stupid enough to buy one either.

I love the G3, it makes the AK look overly compex. Godless teutonic killing machine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/notgonnadothismuchlonger/more/more/30606539.jpg

TOrrock
04-11-11, 07:48
Excellent thread, thanks Steyr.

Love that pic of Col. Hoare, Armakraut. :cool:

TOrrock
04-11-11, 08:03
This is an example of an HK Contract Rifle....

Springfield Armory SAR-3/8 that was built in Greece by Hellenic Arms on HK tooling. The original preban Springfield G3 type rifles were marked G3 (very rare), SAR-3 and when the import ban hit in 1989, the remaining rifles in the country but still in the bonded warehouse were overstamped with an 8, so as to allow the sale of the banned "SAR-3".

This is a rifle that I purchased originally in 1990. Back then, Springfield could sell the SAR-3/8 with a thumbhole stock, and muzzle nut over the threaded muzzle, AND then advertised an "accurizing kit" that included the original buttstock, pistol grip, and flash suppressor. There was nothing in the executive order that said you couldn't refit those items to the rifle. Mitchell Arms did the same thing with their Yugoslavian AK's. Times were different as were the regulations.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00244.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00246.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00247.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00249.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00250b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00251.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00252.jpg



I'm very much with SteyrAUG on this, buy a preban Kraut HK91, Greek Springfield Armory SAR-3, SAR-3/8, or SAR-8 (make sure it's a Greek stamped steel receiver, avoid the aluminum receiver with the integral rail), or Portuguese G3S or XG3S.

A build by a known HK centric smith on a HK contract receiver with an excellent parts kit is worth owning if you can save some money on it.

I still don't trust the JLD/PTR rifles as a whole, but if their line is improving with the new G3 GI rifle, which can be had for just under $1K, then that would be a great option.

The_War_Wagon
04-11-11, 09:46
Great article! I had both a pre-ban HK91, and later a 911 post-ban import back in the day - wish I had BOTH back. :(

I have a late JLD gun, which I bought new, but dumb-lucked into just because of WHEN I bought it. It has the better barrel, and honestly, I can't tell the difference between it and my old HK's, performance-wise. The aluminum forend is an interesting development, but I'd still rather have the wide HK forend with factory bipod.

SteyrAUG
04-11-11, 12:54
Some cool pics of German soldiers with their early German G3s.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5978/0001g32.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7453/0001g31.jpg

Note the CETME style rear sight on these early series HK rifles.

And if you are interested in the early evolution of the HK semi auto rifles into this country, see this topic.

The HK G3 Semi Auto Rifle... (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33942)

TOrrock
04-11-11, 14:06
Steyr, if you have any of the Portuguese imports, it would be helpful if you could take some pictures of the markings so people know what they're looking at.

armakraut
04-11-11, 14:17
http://gastatic.com/UserImages/108986/970866933/wm_2624550.jpg

Will be marked on the right side of the receiver INDEP PORTUGAL, or MANUFACTURED BY INDEP PORTUGAL.

Dano5326
04-11-11, 14:31
A little seen variant:

8076

Greek licensed produced SAR 3/8
RDTS mod'd
HK-33/93 length handguards
16" barrel (17.7" regular)
Picatinny rail welded atop, can co-witness aimpoint
Paddle release

These rifles are esp reliable in cold/arctic weather as compared many military rifles.

This reminds me.. Been a few yrs since checking the roller gap.

SteyrAUG
04-11-11, 15:29
http://gastatic.com/UserImages/108986/970866933/wm_2624550.jpg

Will be marked on the right side of the receiver INDEP PORTUGAL, or MANUFACTURED BY INDEP PORTUGAL.


That would actually be one of the CAI receivers brought in after the ban. The FMP G3S were marked differently and imported by PARS. I need to dig one out and get a picture.

Here are the correct markings on a FMP G3S. This one actually being a post ban XG3S but brought in before they nipped the flash hider. You can identify them easily from the "receiver builds" as the correct imports have a green / gray park usually not found on the gunsmith builds. Additionally the CAI and INTERPORT markings tell you it is a receiver build gun, complete rifle imports were brought in by PARS.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9970/p1003540df3.jpg

I made mine into a Swiss Army Rifle.

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8049/p1003546pz6.jpg

I also failed to mention the Springfield (Hellenic Arms - Greece) Counter Sniper rifle that was briefly imported.

http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/1958/p10032939nt.jpg

Was once the poor mans PSG1, not really an affordable alternative these days.

Killjoy
04-11-11, 20:06
Great post AUG! You are a wealth of knowledge on the subject! I had considered getting a PTR, but now I am rethinking the issue.

SteyrAUG
04-11-11, 22:21
Great post AUG! You are a wealth of knowledge on the subject! I had considered getting a PTR, but now I am rethinking the issue.


I'm constantly on the fence about the PTRs and would love to check out the GI barrel models. They really do have the ability to become a US contract rifle if they wanted.

That said, you can track down the Greek and Portuguese rifles for slightly more money and they are completely dependable.

I just wish PTR would knock out a semi G3 complete with paddle magazine release and military spec barrel. Then they'd have something most of us would be very interested in.

TiroFijo
04-12-11, 09:55
Dano, can you post a bigger picture, please?

May I ask why did you go with the shorter handguard (which involves cutting the recoil spring tube) instead of just chopping 1.7" from the barrel?

Can you show the welded on picatinny rail? It is a great idea to cowitness the iron sights (great cheek weld as well).

What do you use with magnified optics? Can you use relatively low mounted see-through rings?

Any other mods? Rail glued/riveted to the handguards, o perhaps sling swivels mounted on them?

What is the weight with the RDS, sling and loaded aluminium magazine?

Thanks in advance :)

Moose-Knuckle
04-12-11, 17:33
Great thread, deserves a sticky.

My father has a HK 91 he bought back in the day. I always enjoy learing about this rifle.

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-12-11, 17:56
I'm constantly on the fence about the PTRs and would love to check out the GI barrel models. They really do have the ability to become a US contract rifle if they wanted.

That said, you can track down the Greek and Portuguese rifles for slightly more money and they are completely dependable.

I just wish PTR would knock out a semi G3 complete with paddle magazine release and military spec barrel. Then they'd have something most of us would be very interested in.

About the only thing my countrymen have done right in the past century...Damn those Greeks. I'll need to find one for myself eventually :D

VLODPG
04-12-11, 22:18
Great thread!

Makes me want to dig out my unfired HK911 & fondle the planet of the apes thumbhole stock!

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-15-11, 16:02
This is an example of an HK Contract Rifle....

Springfield Armory SAR-3/8 that was built in Greece by Hellenic Arms on HK tooling. The original preban Springfield G3 type rifles were marked G3 (very rare), SAR-3 and when the import ban hit in 1989, the remaining rifles in the country but still in the bonded warehouse were overstamped with an 8, so as to allow the sale of the banned "SAR-3".

This is a rifle that I purchased originally in 1990. Back then, Springfield could sell the SAR-3/8 with a thumbhole stock, and muzzle nut over the threaded muzzle, AND then advertised an "accurizing kit" that included the original buttstock, pistol grip, and flash suppressor. There was nothing in the executive order that said you couldn't refit those items to the rifle. Mitchell Arms did the same thing with their Yugoslavian AK's. Times were different as were the regulations.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00244.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00246.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00247.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00249.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00250b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00251.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/G3%20and%20R1/DSC00252.jpg



I'm very much with SteyrAUG on this, buy a preban Kraut HK91, Greek Springfield Armory SAR-3, SAR-3/8, or SAR-8 (make sure it's a Greek stamped steel receiver, avoid the aluminum receiver with the integral rail), or Portuguese G3S or XG3S.

A build by a known HK centric smith on a HK contract receiver with an excellent parts kit is worth owning if you can save some money on it.

I still don't trust the JLD/PTR rifles as a whole, but if their line is improving with the new G3 GI rifle, which can be had for just under $1K, then that would be a great option.

I'm torn between going for an original German hk91, the Greek sar, or the ptr 91 GI. Pretty significant differences in condition and price out there. I found some decent late 70's HK91's going for low 2k range and some early 80's versions with some wear for the same price. Problem with the Greek stuff is I have no idea how old they are but some of them appear to be almost new. Are the SAR barrels threaded under that ridiculous fake hider or do I need a good smith to bring them into their original configuration? Are the fake hiders pinned on and can the stock/grip be removed? I would like it as true to the original as possible which is what keeps me from going for the PTR in the first place. What is the PTR missing that the originals have? And did any models except the factory or converted machine guns have the paddle release? Every original hk91 I've seen for sale doesn't seem to have the paddle. If PTR actually made it true to spec I would not hesitate.

Thomas M-4
04-15-11, 16:10
Oreaopla

I am just building mine.
So far I have a new FMP CHF barrel.
New HK trunnion
New HK cocking tube
Anti rattle paddle release
Like new HK BCG with tungsten weights in the carrier
New HK recoil assemble
New HK steel weld on shell deflector.
I still have a ways to go but when I am through it will have all the newest HK G3 updates with a CHF barrel.

SteyrAUG
04-15-11, 16:57
Are the fake hiders pinned on and can the stock/grip be removed? I would like it as true to the original as possible which is what keeps me from going for the PTR in the first place. What is the PTR missing that the originals have? And did any models except the factory or converted machine guns have the paddle release? Every original hk91 I've seen for sale doesn't seem to have the paddle. If PTR actually made it true to spec I would not hesitate.

The fake flash hider is pressed on. It is a pain to correct. One of the best solutions is the faux 91k where a correct flash hider is permanently attached to a shortened barrel.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/hk/pagesmithhk.shtml

The thumbhole stock is removed as simply as a standard stock.

None of the early imports had a paddle magazine release. You will either have to have one gunsmith installed or opt for something like the Tac Latch.

http://www.taclatch.com/

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-15-11, 17:38
The fake flash hider is pressed on. It is a pain to correct. One of the best solutions is the faux 91k where a correct flash hider is permanently attached to a shortened barrel.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/hk/pagesmithhk.shtml

The thumbhole stock is removed as simply as a standard stock.

None of the early imports had a paddle magazine release. You will either have to have one gunsmith installed or opt for something like the Tac Latch.

http://www.taclatch.com/

Probably best to find an SAR that already has the flash hider installed, even if it's pinned then. Or just buy an hk91 and have it refinished and have the paddle installed I suppose. I'm not too concerned with affecting the collector value since I'm not going to sell it off.

Safetyhit
04-15-11, 17:42
Real nice work Steyr. Despite your somewhat rough initial few days here, there was little doubt that you'd be a great fit eventually.



:D

SteyrAUG
04-15-11, 18:31
Real nice work Steyr. Despite your somewhat rough initial few days here, there was little doubt that you'd be a great fit eventually.



:D


I think there will eventually be hope for you as well.

:D

Seriously, the first day somebody should have simply told me it wasn't arfcom and explained the difference. I'm still not sure exactly what constitutes a "professional" GD post, but I seem to be getting by.

SteyrAUG
04-15-11, 18:36
Probably best to find an SAR that already has the flash hider installed, even if it's pinned then. Or just buy an hk91 and have it refinished and have the paddle installed I suppose. I'm not too concerned with affecting the collector value since I'm not going to sell it off.

There are 4 SARs. 3 are Greek HK contract, one is a US clone.

1. The SAR 3 (basically identical to the 91)

2. The SAR 3/8 overstamp (same rifle but with a 8 stamped over the 3).

3. The SAR 8 (thumbhole stock and pressed on fake flash hider)

4. The SAR 8 (non Greek production, aluminum receiver)

The SAR 3 and 3/8 overstamp have a removable flash hider. Only the thumbhole stock SAR 8 is pressed on.

Since you are talking about a paddle mag and refinish anyway, might as well use a SAR 8 if you can find one and have the pinned on flash hider removed and replaced with the correct one.

Of course price and what becomes available will be your main criteria.

TOrrock
04-15-11, 18:39
Probably best to find an SAR that already has the flash hider installed, even if it's pinned then. Or just buy an hk91 and have it refinished and have the paddle installed I suppose. I'm not too concerned with affecting the collector value since I'm not going to sell it off.


The 3/8 overstamp guns weren't even pinned on, just a muzzle nut.

I've owned real HK 91's and Greek G3 and SAR 3/8, and there honestly was no discernible difference in quality.

Another HK smith to look at, who I know personally and have shot his work on machine guns, is Mike @ TSC.

http://www.tscmachine.com/

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-15-11, 19:03
The 3/8 overstamp guns weren't even pinned on, just a muzzle nut.

I've owned real HK 91's and Greek G3 and SAR 3/8, and there honestly was no discernible difference in quality.

Another HK smith to look at, who I know personally and have shot his work on machine guns, is Mike @ TSC.

http://www.tscmachine.com/

Most of the pictures I'm finding of SAR 8's show an odd shortened muzzle device like this one.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=224672261
Some show what looks like the correct muzzle device without the ports machined out. I found one SAR that may be an overstamp since it seems to have the proper hider on it. If I do go for the SAR-8, I'll end up saving alot of cash I can use to have it refinished and add the paddle as well. I'm just getting hung up on the whole Real German vs. Licensed by situation. I'm not totally concerned with the collector value but it is great to say I'd have an original German version. It's cool to say I have one that matches my lineage too though. I guess since they both seem to be great rifles, I'll just decide based on cost, condition and the somewhat on collector value as well.

TOrrock
04-15-11, 19:09
Just realized you're in NY, so you need either a real HK, Springfield SAR-3, or Pars G3S, or one that's already been debanned.

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-15-11, 19:36
Just realized you're in NY, so you need either a real HK, Springfield SAR-3, or Pars G3S, or one that's already been debanned.

I'm exempted from all that absurdity as an LEO and only have to worry about it when I'm ready to retire. At that point I'll be ready to move out of state anyway. My concern at this point is to get a rifle that's as close to the real deal and in as close to excellent condition as possible, barring cosmetics. After hearing from you and Steyr, I'm leaning towards the SAR since it is a contract rifle and I'm sure I and my father will get a kick out of it being Greek made. Chances are it'll be somewhat newer and hopefully in better condition. And I won't feel guilty refinishing it and adding a paddle to it. The website you linked mentioned having it converted to a G3 with refinishing and stamping the receiver as well. Is it ok to use a full auto carrier in it, since it's advertised on the site as an option? Not sure what's legal with this particular design.

TOrrock
04-15-11, 19:41
Those prices were to convert to a machine gun....might want to shoot Mike an email and ask about unbanning a SAR-8.

Some of Mike's work.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EASA97e5Cpg

TOrrock
04-15-11, 19:49
There are 4 SARs. 3 are Greek HK contract, one is a US clone.

1. The SAR 3 (basically identical to the 91)

2. The SAR 3/8 overstamp (same rifle but with a 8 stamped over the 3).

3. The SAR 8 (thumbhole stock and pressed on fake flash hider)

4. The SAR 8 (non Greek production, aluminum receiver)

The SAR 3 and 3/8 overstamp have a removable flash hider. Only the thumbhole stock SAR 8 is pressed on.

Since you are talking about a paddle mag and refinish anyway, might as well use a SAR 8 if you can find one and have the pinned on flash hider removed and replaced with the correct one.

Of course price and what becomes available will be your main criteria.


There's also a very rare variant, one of the first ones to come in were actually marked G3. I'll swear to whatever deity you hold dear.....I had one. Came in the old pre ban Springfield Green Box.

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-15-11, 20:38
There's also a very rare variant, one of the first ones to come in were actually marked G3. I'll swear to whatever deity you hold dear.....I had one. Came in the old pre ban Springfield Green Box.

Steyr mentioned some early G3 marked Greek rifles but of those I've seen nothing. I'll email the gentleman you mentioned and see what he quotes me. Are his finishes close to the original HK style? Will adding a full auto carrier cause legal issues?

TOrrock
04-15-11, 20:43
Steyr mentioned some early G3 marked Greek rifles but of those I've seen nothing. I'll email the gentleman you mentioned and see what he quotes me. Are his finishes close to the original HK style? Will adding a full auto carrier cause legal issues?


One of LAV's AI's had Mike build a semi auto MP5A3 for him down here, which included a flap mag release, and he refinished it in Cerakote which looked great.

There aren't any legal issues that I'm aware of running a full auto bolt carrier.

SteyrAUG
04-15-11, 22:02
There's also a very rare variant, one of the first ones to come in were actually marked G3. I'll swear to whatever deity you hold dear.....I had one. Came in the old pre ban Springfield Green Box.


Not surprising.


Steyr mentioned some early G3 marked Greek rifles but of those I've seen nothing. I'll email the gentleman you mentioned and see what he quotes me. Are his finishes close to the original HK style? Will adding a full auto carrier cause legal issues?

The G3 marked semi's I mentioned were actually early HK rifles and the FMP G3S rifles. Adding a full auto carrier usually doesn't create any legal issues unless you have some local laws regarding them.

That said, a full auto carrier really doesn't do anything for you either.

bubba04
04-15-11, 22:10
Good read steyr.

I really enjoy these rifles.

I have a 1981 hk91 and a g3 clone built with a parts kit I picked up that included a cherry of a barrel that I really enjoy shooting.

Winnerkd
04-16-11, 08:55
I recently purchased a PTR-91 G.I. Upon taking it apart, I discovered my bolt carrier group is older than I am. It's marked HK 6/62, which I assume means it was made in June, 1962.

If you want pictures of parts, let me know.

Also, what is the proper sight picture for an HK series drum at using the V part of the drum? I'm wondering because when I zero elevation I'd like to make sure I'm not messing up.

SteyrAUG
04-16-11, 13:10
Also, what is the proper sight picture for an HK series drum at using the V part of the drum? I'm wondering because when I zero elevation I'd like to make sure I'm not messing up.

It's in the manual, I'll try and do a scan later.

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-21-11, 13:20
So I managed to find a decent deal on an SAR-8 overstamp and it should be reaching my dealer soon. I contacted Mike at TSC machine on templar's recommendation and he told me he will only work on HK guns and not any contract or clone rifles. I unfortunately didn't speak to him before buying the SAR but I most likely would have stuck with the SAR anyway. He said he doesn't deal with 922r and doesn't want someone to replace compliance parts down the line and have the ATF knocking on his door. So no go on TSC for me. I did contact T. Mark Graham at Arizona Response Systems and he is willing to do the work. My rifle has the silly beer keg pinned over the barrel threads so I'm having it replaced with a correct hk hider. I'm also thinking of adding the grenade launch ring for authenticity. Would I have to replace the front site (I think it's called a triple frame)? The only hitch appears to be with adding the anti-rattle paddle release. He told me he's not totally sure about the Greek receivers but the Portuguese, PTR and Pakistani versions won't work with the wider paddle. He doesn't have any on hand to check so I would have to order it on my own and send it with the SAR. Anyone have any info regarding whether the anti-rattle will work?

SteyrAUG
04-21-11, 15:45
So I managed to find a decent deal on an SAR-8 overstamp and it should be reaching my dealer soon. I contacted Mike at TSC machine on templar's recommendation and he told me he will only work on HK guns and not any contract or clone rifles. I unfortunately didn't speak to him before buying the SAR but I most likely would have stuck with the SAR anyway. He said he doesn't deal with 922r and doesn't want someone to replace compliance parts down the line and have the ATF knocking on his door. So no go on TSC for me. I did contact T. Mark Graham at Arizona Response Systems and he is willing to do the work. My rifle has the silly beer keg pinned over the barrel threads so I'm having it replaced with a correct hk hider. I'm also thinking of adding the grenade launch ring for authenticity. Would I have to replace the front site (I think it's called a triple frame)? The only hitch appears to be with adding the anti-rattle paddle release. He told me he's not totally sure about the Greek receivers but the Portuguese, PTR and Pakistani versions won't work with the wider paddle. He doesn't have any on hand to check so I would have to order it on my own and send it with the SAR. Anyone have any info regarding whether the anti-rattle will work?

I would not get hung up on "anti rattle" paddle magazines releases. I have several G3s and not one of them "rattles" and that includes the ones that are 50 years old.

I also wouldn't bother with grenade launching rings as they serve no function. They are cool if you have a G3 kit built into a rifle, but not worth the trouble of adding them on.

Do the flash hider, paddle magazine release and then spend the rest of the money on uber cheap 20 round magazines.

Also if you have a pressed on muzzle device, yours is a SAR 8, not an overstamp.

txbrenek
04-22-11, 19:38
Here is my 2 CETME'S .I had to do a little tinkering to them to get them to shoot .http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/tx318/006.jpghttp://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab274/tx318/007.jpg

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-22-11, 20:34
I would not get hung up on "anti rattle" paddle magazines releases. I have several G3s and not one of them "rattles" and that includes the ones that are 50 years old.

I also wouldn't bother with grenade launching rings as they serve no function. They are cool if you have a G3 kit built into a rifle, but not worth the trouble of adding them on.

Do the flash hider, paddle magazine release and then spend the rest of the money on uber cheap 20 round magazines.

Also if you have a pressed on muzzle device, yours is a SAR 8, not an overstamp.

I'm just waiting for the rifle to get to my dealer at this point. Only issue now is to purchase the paddle so I'm just trying to figure out if the Greek receiver differs from the original HK version. Mark at arizona response said the HK version has extra material in the paddle release area so I'm not sure which style to buy as I have no idea which style paddle is correctly sized. Obviously, if the paddle is too wide he can shape it to fit but he said if the space for it on the receiver is too wide it would cause an issue. I have to buy the parts and send them with the rifle. Any ideas?

QuietShootr
04-22-11, 20:53
I'm just waiting for the rifle to get to my dealer at this point. Only issue now is to purchase the paddle so I'm just trying to figure out if the Greek receiver differs from the original HK version. Mark at arizona response said the HK version has extra material in the paddle release area so I'm not sure which style to buy as I have no idea which style paddle is correctly sized. Obviously, if the paddle is too wide he can shape it to fit but he said if the space for it on the receiver is too wide it would cause an issue. I have to buy the parts and send them with the rifle. Any ideas?

I had a 91 and a SAR-3 overstamp at the same time. The receivers were absolutely identical on the pair I had. Actually, the Greek gun was a little prettier than the 91 (036xxx).

SteyrAUG
04-22-11, 23:33
I'm just waiting for the rifle to get to my dealer at this point. Only issue now is to purchase the paddle so I'm just trying to figure out if the Greek receiver differs from the original HK version. Mark at arizona response said the HK version has extra material in the paddle release area so I'm not sure which style to buy as I have no idea which style paddle is correctly sized. Obviously, if the paddle is too wide he can shape it to fit but he said if the space for it on the receiver is too wide it would cause an issue. I have to buy the parts and send them with the rifle. Any ideas?


Get the standard G3 paddle. I'm not 100% but I'm almost positive the anti rattle is for the MP5 only.

Heavy Metal
04-22-11, 23:48
A little seen variant:

8076

Greek licensed produced SAR 3/8
RDTS mod'd
HK-33/93 length handguards
16" barrel (17.7" regular)
Picatinny rail welded atop, can co-witness aimpoint
Paddle release

These rifles are esp reliable in cold/arctic weather as compared many military rifles.

This reminds me.. Been a few yrs since checking the roller gap.

I guess shooting copious quantities of hot gasses into the chamber and upper reciever has its benefits.

SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
04-23-11, 01:05
Get the standard G3 paddle. I'm not 100% but I'm almost positive the anti rattle is for the MP5 only.

Hkparts.net advertises both the standard paddle and the "current model" I.e. Anti-rattle when searching under the hk91 model. I would assume they both fit but I'll give them a call and see what they say I guess.

Thomas M-4
04-23-11, 01:13
Get the standard G3 paddle. I'm not 100% but I'm almost positive the anti rattle is for the MP5 only.

No they have a anti rattle g3 paddle release.
Got mine from RTG it came on a demilled receiver stub marked

G3FS 1277470

BW
HK 10/83

It doesn't have a roller like the MP5 does but it does have the anti rattle piece riveted on just like the MP5.

SteyrAUG
04-23-11, 03:13
No they have a anti rattle g3 paddle release.
Got mine from RTG it came on a demilled receiver stub marked

G3FS 1277470

BW
HK 10/83

It doesn't have a roller like the MP5 does but it does have the anti rattle piece riveted on just like the MP5.


Gotcha. Like I said I wasn't 100% sure.

GIJew766
06-15-11, 16:27
Sorry for reviving a freshly dead thread, but a discussion with Templar last night has me on the hunt for an SAR-3 to convert to G3K spec (including paddle mag release conversion). Anyone have a lead on one?



H

Greg Bell
06-15-11, 18:00
FANTASTIC post Steyr.

Here is my much adored early Springfield G3 import. I picked this one up for $1200 in very lightly used condition. I had Williams clean up the trigger. I originally planned on selling it to finance my SCAR 17 but I really haven't decide which one I like better.

http://gallery.me.com/ghblaw/100010/IMG_2670/web.jpg?ver=13067130350001

bubba04
06-15-11, 18:27
I really like the G3, a G3k would be sweet. Who do you have planned to do the conversion?

I have a g3 clone built out of an enfield parts kit and barrel with an aimpoint comp m4 and a heavy recoil buffer. It is a sweet blaster like that and I surprised how well it handles shooting off hand.

Nice blasters greg!

armakraut
06-15-11, 19:12
Sorry for reviving a freshly dead thread, but a discussion with Templar last night has me on the hunt for an SAR-3 to convert to G3K spec (including paddle mag release conversion). Anyone have a lead on one?

Good quality 14.5 G3K barrels don't exist... nor do good quality 16 inch G3K barrels.

bubba04
06-15-11, 19:23
I have heard good things about these barrels.

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/G3K-Barrel-Cold-Hammer-Forged-US-Made-120p1499.htm

SteyrAUG
06-15-11, 23:21
Sorry for reviving a freshly dead thread, but a discussion with Templar last night has me on the hunt for an SAR-3 to convert to G3K spec (including paddle mag release conversion). Anyone have a lead on one?
H


If you are going to chop a rifle DO NOT start with a SAR 3, get a SAR 8 with the pressed on fake flash. It will be cheaper and you won't dick up a rarer "imported in preban configuration" rifle.

Consider this option.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/hk/pagesmithhk.shtml#anchor4

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/hk/smithhk01.jpg

I invented the HK91k conversion to obtain a 16" barrel, including the flash suppressor. This is a less-expensive way to obtain the look of a G3k without having to register the gun as a short-barreled rifle. Using my special fixtures and tooling, I can shorten and thread the barrel without removing it from the receiver. The HK standard thread is M15x1.0 RH. I will touch-up the finish if necessary with METACOL III Satin Black on the barrel, and dark gray phosphate on the flash suppressor, as on the original. I can color-match black guns only, not the earlier blue-gray SACO imports.

armakraut
06-15-11, 23:28
The above is a good option.

GIJew766
06-16-11, 00:10
If you are going to chop a rifle DO NOT start with a SAR 3, get a SAR 8 with the pressed on fake flash. It will be cheaper and you won't dick up a rarer "imported in preban configuration" rifle.

Consider this option.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/hk/pagesmithhk.shtml#anchor4

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/smith/hk/smithhk01.jpg


As I had said earlier, my decision to look for the SAR models was based on a conversation I had Tuesday night with Templar. I was originally thinking about finding an HK51 just for fun, but the good gentleman talked me out of violating my own rule of "no range toys" and sticking with something I could actually depend on.

T also suggested going through IGF for their conversion on whatever rifle I end up finding, as they will actually make it a legit SBR. I know that I will lose some of the .308's ability by going with the 12.4" barrel, but it's what I want. Especially when I intend on getting rid of the A3 stock and swapping it out for a fixed stock off of the 21. I do appreciate all of the info y'all can give. Other than HKs owned by CBP and the department I work with now, I don't have a hell of a lot of experience with the Krauts.


H

armakraut
06-16-11, 00:12
Since you are replacing the barrel anyway, there is no effective difference between an SAR-3 and an SAR-8, other than the SAR-3 will cost you more for a threaded barrel you are replacing anyway.

TOrrock
06-16-11, 07:45
Definitely go SAR-8 with the stamped Greek receiver, stay away from the later Fed Ordnance aluminum receivered rifles.

GIJew766
06-16-11, 10:50
Will do. Thanks guys for the advice. Now off to go find one in decent condition.


H

SteyrAUG
06-16-11, 13:34
As I had said earlier, my decision to look for the SAR models was based on a conversation I had Tuesday night with Templar. I was originally thinking about finding an HK51 just for fun, but the good gentleman talked me out of violating my own rule of "no range toys" and sticking with something I could actually depend on.

T also suggested going through IGF for their conversion on whatever rifle I end up finding, as they will actually make it a legit SBR. I know that I will lose some of the .308's ability by going with the 12.4" barrel, but it's what I want. Especially when I intend on getting rid of the A3 stock and swapping it out for a fixed stock off of the 21. I do appreciate all of the info y'all can give. Other than HKs owned by CBP and the department I work with now, I don't have a hell of a lot of experience with the Krauts.


H

No problem, but in that option I would STILL recommend cutting down a Greek SAR 8 rather than a SAR 3 for the reasons stated earlier. It will also save you some money as they are more affordable.

GIJew766
06-16-11, 14:41
No problem, but in that option I would STILL recommend cutting down a Greek SAR 8 rather than a SAR 3 for the reasons stated earlier. It will also save you some money as they are more affordable.

More affordable if I could find one. All day today, been calling around "local" dealers (up for 100 miles away) to see who had an SAR 8. The two who had them had the aluminum receiver. Also, everyone I spoke to has the PTR91 in stock, but I've heard very mixed reviews of those rifles. Is this really such a difficult search or am I doing something wrong?


H

SteyrAUG
06-16-11, 15:59
More affordable if I could find one. All day today, been calling around "local" dealers (up for 100 miles away) to see who had an SAR 8. The two who had them had the aluminum receiver. Also, everyone I spoke to has the PTR91 in stock, but I've heard very mixed reviews of those rifles. Is this really such a difficult search or am I doing something wrong?


H


These are discontinued rifles for over 10 years now. The SAR 3s were imported until 1989 and the SAR 8s until about the mid to late 90s.

You are just gonna have to hunt Gunbroker and HKPro until one pops up.

Here is a SAR 8.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=235970766

Be aware that there are several people selling US made SAR 8s (aluminum receiver w/ rail garbage) who are obviously under the delusion they actually have Greek SAR 8s and they have priced them accordingly.

GIJew766
06-16-11, 17:20
Trust me, I know. I am beginning to consider picking up a G3 parts kit and a steel receiver (are the PTR receivers any good, because I seem to find more of them than anything else) and then sending it all off to IGF for the build/G3K conversion.


H

SteyrAUG
06-16-11, 17:23
Trust me, I know. I am beginning to consider picking up a G3 parts kit and a steel receiver (are the PTR receivers any good, because I seem to find more of them than anything else) and then sending it all off to IGF for the build/G3K conversion.


H

They are damn near factory FMP receivers. That said, any reason why you are going to replace the barrel rather than cut down the factory one?

If Vollmer could cut 91s down to 51s in the 80s there is no reason to go with an inferior "knock off" K barrel. Might have to change the locking piece but that should be about it.

TOrrock
06-16-11, 17:24
Trust me, I know. I am beginning to consider picking up a G3 parts kit and a steel receiver (are the PTR receivers any good, because I seem to find more of them than anything else) and then sending it all off to IGF for the build/G3K conversion.


H


I think the PTR receivers are fine, it's their barrels and trunnions that I'd be very leery of. There have been several reports of cracked trunnions, and general build issues with factory PTR's.

GIJew766
06-16-11, 17:38
They are damn near factory FMP receivers. That said, any reason why you are going to replace the barrel rather than cut down the factory one?

If Vollmer could cut 91s down to 51s in the 80s there is no reason to go with an inferior "knock off" K barrel. Might have to change the locking piece but that should be about it.

The parts kit that I was eying up from this source (unknown as all hell) includes everything but receiver and magazine, and is built on all HK and FMP parts. Then I was just going to buy the PTR receiver from hkparts.com, and ship everything off to IGF to do the chop job on the barrel and build the whole thing for me.

Only question becomes, is that a Form 1 jobber or would IGF Form 2 the thing, then F3 it to my local dealer, where I'd have filled out my Form 4?


I think the PTR receivers are fine, it's their barrels and trunnions that I'd be very leery of. There have been several reports of cracked trunnions, and general build issues with factory PTR's.

So then as long as I'm only using PTR's receiver, I should be G2G?

Caeser25
06-16-11, 18:05
Can someone set me straight on cetmes? I'm thinking of picking one up depending on price locally. If they're not toooooo much cheaper, I'll probably go with the mil ptr with the green furniture at cdnn for $899 or $799 whatever they are. A cetme will be fine to cure my want of a mbr in my stable and will just be a range toy, cheap mags and I want to be able to run cheap ammo, brown bear, surplus etc. What do I want to look for ? I did a search and didn't come up with many threads on them.

Thomas M-4
06-17-11, 19:12
I think the PTR receivers are fine, it's their barrels and trunnions that I'd be very leery of. There have been several reports of cracked trunnions, and general build issues with factory PTR's.

Funny that you mention that. I have noticed a few reports on HKpro about the cracked PTR trunnions also.
My buddy bought a NIW German trunnion for his G3K clone build.
The builder called him up to let him know that the NIW German trunnion cracked while he was pressing in a RCM barrel the builder replaced it with a used German trunnion everything was fine. But that incident and the reported PTR trunnion cracking have me wondering how HK originally pressed the barrels. And how builders are pressing in the barrels. The point is I wondering if they freeze the barrels and heat up the trunnions before pressing them together I have done this procedure for many yrs for pressed parts and it does help some.

SteyrAUG
06-18-11, 01:52
Can someone set me straight on cetmes? I'm thinking of picking one up depending on price locally. If they're not toooooo much cheaper, I'll probably go with the mil ptr with the green furniture at cdnn for $899 or $799 whatever they are. A cetme will be fine to cure my want of a mbr in my stable and will just be a range toy, cheap mags and I want to be able to run cheap ammo, brown bear, surplus etc. What do I want to look for ? I did a search and didn't come up with many threads on them.

The only REAL CETMES are MARS imports which cost more than preban HK91s. Everything else is CAI crap.

Given your criteria, buy a DSA Imbel rifle.

SteyrAUG
06-18-11, 01:54
Only question becomes, is that a Form 1 jobber or would IGF Form 2 the thing, then F3 it to my local dealer, where I'd have filled out my Form 4?

You'd have to work that out with Jason.




So then as long as I'm only using PTR's receiver, I should be G2G?

You should be G2G, I'd recommend getting a new German trunnion rather than trying to salvage the one from the kit.

GIJew766
06-18-11, 21:06
You'd have to work that out with Jason.




You should be G2G, I'd recommend getting a new German trunnion rather than trying to salvage the one from the kit.

Anywhere in particular you'd recommend I look for a new German manufactured trunnion? HKParts?


Other that replacing the trunnion from that kit, my plan seems to meet quality standards necessary for a solid build? As I've said prior, my experiences with the Krauts has been pretty limited to training and qualifying with them in small doses in Federal service. Now that I'm a TEMS guy with an SRT unit (where all we use are AR pattern rifles or shotguns), I pretty much stick to training with what we use.


H


PS: Thanks for all the guidance. You and Tim have a metric ass-ton (scientific term there :sarcastic:) of knowledge on HK firearms, let alone firearms in general. Awesome.

Thomas M-4
06-18-11, 21:09
Anywhere in particular you'd recommend I look for a new German manufactured trunnion? HKParts?


Other that replacing the trunnion from that kit, my plan seems to meet quality standards necessary for a solid build? As I've said prior, my experiences with the Krauts has been pretty limited to training and qualifying with them in small doses in Federal service. Now that I'm a TEMS guy with an SRT unit (where all we use are AR pattern rifles or shotguns), I pretty much stick to training with what we use.


H


PS: Thanks for all the guidance. You and Tim have a metric ass-ton (scientific term there :sarcastic:) of knowledge on HK firearms, let alone firearms in general. Awesome.

RTG parts
Is were I picked up mine.
http://www.robertrtg.com/g3trunion.html
Seems I remember HK parts has them also.

GIJew766
06-18-11, 21:15
RTG parts
Is were I picked up mine.
http://www.robertrtg.com/g3trunion.html
Seems I remember HK parts has them also.

Sweet deal. Thanks boss.


H

SteyrAUG
06-19-11, 02:31
Anywhere in particular you'd recommend I look for a new German manufactured trunnion? HKParts?


Other that replacing the trunnion from that kit, my plan seems to meet quality standards necessary for a solid build? As I've said prior, my experiences with the Krauts has been pretty limited to training and qualifying with them in small doses in Federal service. Now that I'm a TEMS guy with an SRT unit (where all we use are AR pattern rifles or shotguns), I pretty much stick to training with what we use.


H


PS: Thanks for all the guidance. You and Tim have a metric ass-ton (scientific term there :sarcastic:) of knowledge on HK firearms, let alone firearms in general. Awesome.

HKParts would be fine, TRG would be ok too.

Other than that your plan sounds GTG.

No problem with the advice.

FMJ556
06-19-11, 11:28
What impresses me about the G3/Hk91 design is how modular it is considering it is a 50+ year old design.

Sigmax
06-22-11, 00:14
Okay, just to join in I found what appears to be a 91 in the back of a shop of a friend of mine. It is stamped Heckler & Koch and seems to be in really good condition.

I just got to look at it today and does not seem to be going anywhere. How about some advice on what else to look for on this model & what it is really worth?

It is not exactly priced cheaply at about $2700, but seems to be in very good condition.

Gewehr455
06-22-11, 09:54
In my area a lightly used HK91 will sell when priced around 1800 - 2100. I see lots of them priced higher and they sit on gunshow tables at those higher prices. New in the box will bring more. I paid 2000 for an excellent condition 91 about 18 months ago.
Okay, just to join in I found what appears to be a 91 in the back of a shop of a friend of mine. It is stamped Heckler & Koch and seems to be in really good condition.

I just got to look at it today and does not seem to be going anywhere. How about some advice on what else to look for on this model & what it is really worth?

It is not exactly priced cheaply at about $2700, but seems to be in very good condition.

SteyrAUG
06-22-11, 14:35
Okay, just to join in I found what appears to be a 91 in the back of a shop of a friend of mine. It is stamped Heckler & Koch and seems to be in really good condition.

I just got to look at it today and does not seem to be going anywhere. How about some advice on what else to look for on this model & what it is really worth?

It is not exactly priced cheaply at about $2700, but seems to be in very good condition.

Sounds a tad high.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237052909

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=237272293

*This one comes with a $400 mount.

prdubi
07-30-11, 12:04
I have a FMP G-3, does not say G3S or anything.

Was wondering how hard is it to install the grenade ring back on?

I'm seeing it is part of the front sight. So should I just cut the ring off and put it on there or what?

SteyrAUG
07-30-11, 12:53
I have a FMP G-3, does not say G3S or anything.

Was wondering how hard is it to install the grenade ring back on?

I'm seeing it is part of the front sight. So should I just cut the ring off and put it on there or what?

What import marks are on it?

And if you wanted grenade launching rings, I'm pretty sure you would have to replace your entire front sight assembly. If you have a pre89 import rifle this will devalue it. Also the likelihood of the sight matching the rest of the rifle is low so you'd probably feel compelled to refinish the rifle which would lower the value even more.

Even the German 91s didn't have launch rings so I probably wouldn't bother.

armakraut
07-30-11, 12:56
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=244017744

If anyone wants one without breaking the bank...

prdubi
07-30-11, 13:03
well however had it before me, it already has the flipper mag installed and it was done professionally. Has a Bill Springfield Trigger job and the lower is a fake F/A lower on it installed with the fake holes glued on.

To me, it would do a world heap of value to me if it had the grenade ring to match the aesthetics of the rifle at where it is now.

SteyrAUG
07-30-11, 15:46
well however had it before me, it already has the flipper mag installed and it was done professionally. Has a Bill Springfield Trigger job and the lower is a fake F/A lower on it installed with the fake holes glued on.

To me, it would do a world heap of value to me if it had the grenade ring to match the aesthetics of the rifle at where it is now.


The real question is "which" FMP rifle you have and how much collector value would be lost. Doesn't sound like you have a PARS rifle though. And if what you have is a Century Arms FMP build then changing out the front sight won't matter at all.

Eurodriver
07-31-11, 12:44
I bought a CETME around 2002, it was by far the worst rifle I've ever owned. The muzzle device was a loud compensator and it never got through one magazine without jamming.

That really put me off to the G3/HK91 type rifles even though I know it shouldn't have. I really like the design. If there was a solid "buy this and it will work" rifle in the genre I'd buy it again,.

prdubi
07-31-11, 12:48
thats really sad to hear that one tiny incident clouded your entire judgement of a very good system.

I bet your experience would have been more pleasant and positive if you would have gotten a better made g-3 style setup.

TOrrock
07-31-11, 12:54
thats really sad to hear that one tiny incident clouded your entire judgement of a very good system.

I bet your experience would have been more pleasant and positive if you would have gotten a better made g-3 style setup.

Unfortunately, Century has managed to destroy the reputations of AK's, G3's, and FAL's to an entire generation of buyers and shooters who weren't around in the 1980's to appreciate a factory, original production rifle.

prdubi
07-31-11, 13:23
I've had great luck with Century so please put away your surprise and shock faces.

Yugo M76 8mm, runs like a champ and the original scope setup works on it. Not very accurate using MG ammo but when using that dedicated sniper ammo from Yugo...runs and performs great groups.

Yugo M70AB2 which runs like a champ and it came with a pretty ulterly clean and pristine barrel. Has the thicker RPK style receiver. Fired for groups and it performs great using the m67 Yugo ammo. Mines came with the grenade launcher setup and I had the tritium reactivated also. Sling wasn't included nor the cleaning rod but I purchased that with no issues.

Mauser Steyr produced 98k RC, came without cleaning rod but it had a front site hood and an original sling. Used this rifle for classic battle rifle and it performed very well using hunting 8mm ammo from Remington.

Steyr M95/34- Came out fine and one of my favorite to shoot using the prvi partizan ammo.

walther P1, looked brand new to me and fires like a new gun.


In the end, YMMV and so far I've been lucky, same with my luck with Botach....they've been good too. But remember folks, that's just me.

Eurodriver
07-31-11, 13:33
thats really sad to hear that one tiny incident clouded your entire judgement of a very good system.

I bet your experience would have been more pleasant and positive if you would have gotten a better made g-3 style setup.

Of course it would, unfortunately, as you can see, in almost 10 years I stil lhave not bought another delayed roller blowback firearm because of that bad experience. I don't know what to get. I have shot a buddy's PTR91 that didn't malfunction, it was alot of fun, but I wouldn't buy one because I don't trust it. The ones I do trust run upwards of $2,000. I might as well get a SCAR 17.

I own zero 7.62 battle rifles.

prdubi
07-31-11, 13:47
and like I said...one bad experience and it entirely clouds your process in the equation. I'm sorry for your experience in that but if you are using that one example than you are like many people I know everywhere that cloud their entire thought process and internalize their experience based on one BAD apple.

I can replace all the variables in this conversation with say..... MEXICAN food or burger king or maybe Jamba Juice or 5 guys burgers and it would come out to be the same.

I prefer to give people and organizations many chances, maybe 3 is the limit and if they are still FUBAR'd despite the number of chances than yeah....I would write that off. But I would never write it off based on one incident.

This is where the internet folklore and gunshop couch commandos come into play with their 3rd person narrative. OH I heard from my cousins baby sisters momma that the ford fiesta is a POS.

I've heard enough stuff for example about the Beretta M9. I'm now retired army,Corp of Engrs, and I've had nothing but great experience with it in terms of reliability during my deployments and training sessions. In fact, I took two classes with Super Dave Harrington and I was the only one with an m9( officer issued and purchased M9 BTW from the Rock Island Armory program) and it performed solidly, took other pistol classes and I carry it with a crossbreed just fine and it hides just fine. Yes it is heavy..but I am used to it.

In the end, YMMV, but in my opinion, I believe everyone should give whatever noun you are using in the sentence a 2nd chance and if it's still a FUBAR scenario...at least you can say that with an honest authority and the experience to back it up....

Now if we had a scenario and if say like TEMPLAR used century and bought 10 of them and all 10 of them were POS...well.....mail me some crow.....:D I will gladly make soup out of it :D.

SteyrAUG
07-31-11, 13:50
I bought a CETME around 2002, it was by far the worst rifle I've ever owned. The muzzle device was a loud compensator and it never got through one magazine without jamming.

That really put me off to the G3/HK91 type rifles even though I know it shouldn't have. I really like the design. If there was a solid "buy this and it will work" rifle in the genre I'd buy it again,.

You didn't really own a CETME though. You owned a rifle built on a CAI receiver using a CETME parts kit that was poorly assembled. It would be like me being put off the AR15 rifle because I bought one made by Century Arms.

SteyrAUG
07-31-11, 13:54
I've had great luck with Century so please put away your surprise and shock faces.

Yugo M76 8mm, runs like a champ and the original scope setup works on it. Not very accurate using MG ammo but when using that dedicated sniper ammo from Yugo...runs and performs great groups.

Yugo M70AB2 which runs like a champ and it came with a pretty ulterly clean and pristine barrel. Has the thicker RPK style receiver. Fired for groups and it performs great using the m67 Yugo ammo. Mines came with the grenade launcher setup and I had the tritium reactivated also. Sling wasn't included nor the cleaning rod but I purchased that with no issues.

Mauser Steyr produced 98k RC, came without cleaning rod but it had a front site hood and an original sling. Used this rifle for classic battle rifle and it performed very well using hunting 8mm ammo from Remington.

Steyr M95/34- Came out fine and one of my favorite to shoot using the prvi partizan ammo.

walther P1, looked brand new to me and fires like a new gun.


In the end, YMMV and so far I've been lucky, same with my luck with Botach....they've been good too. But remember folks, that's just me.

Imported by CAI and built by CAI are two very different thing. The last three on your list were simply imported by CAI, they had no part of the manufacture.

I'm also pretty sure CAI farmed out the builds for the M70s. Don't know the exact nature of the M76 if they were imported and made compliant by CAI or built from kits.

Mauser KAR98K
07-31-11, 14:02
Reading this thread, I miss both of mine: G3 and CAI CETME:bad:

I had fun with them, but I could not depend on them. The G3 was on a Hesse receiver I bought from a friend. Jammed repeatedly. The CETME was better in reliability, but CAI never welded a sight on straight in their lives. And the BRAKE was killer under an enclosed shooting range.

One of these days I will grab a PTR-91.

Please add HESSE to the list.

prdubi
07-31-11, 14:05
I must admit that the Cetme a friend bought was a hit for him.

He did send it to Ghilliebear and he installed a flapper mag and replaced the muzzle brake with an original one after the 2004 sunset.

it's a gorgeous rifle with the wood and all the other settings.

it's never going to be an original 60's imported CETME but it's a nice shooter.

then again I believe all of the horror stories so I am just sharing my experience

Eurodriver
07-31-11, 14:07
and like I said...one bad experience and it entirely clouds your process in the equation. I'm sorry for your experience in that but if you are using that one example than you are like many people I know everywhere that cloud their entire thought process and internalize their experience based on one BAD apple.

I can replace all the variables in this conversation with say..... MEXICAN food or burger king or maybe Jamba Juice or 5 guys burgers and it would come out to be the same.

I prefer to give people and organizations many chances, maybe 3 is the limit and if they are still FUBAR'd despite the number of chances than yeah....I would write that off. But I would never write it off based on one incident.

This is where the internet folklore and gunshop couch commandos come into play with their 3rd person narrative. OH I heard from my cousins baby sisters momma that the ford fiesta is a POS.

I've heard enough stuff for example about the Beretta M9. I'm now retired army,Corp of Engrs, and I've had nothing but great experience with it in terms of reliability during my deployments and training sessions. In fact, I took two classes with Super Dave Harrington and I was the only one with an m9( officer issued and purchased M9 BTW from the Rock Island Armory program) and it performed solidly, took other pistol classes and I carry it with a crossbreed just fine and it hides just fine. Yes it is heavy..but I am used to it.

In the end, YMMV, but in my opinion, I believe everyone should give whatever noun you are using in the sentence a 2nd chance and if it's still a FUBAR scenario...at least you can say that with an honest authority and the experience to back it up....

Now if we had a scenario and if say like TEMPLAR used century and bought 10 of them and all 10 of them were POS...well.....mail me some crow.....:D I will gladly make soup out of it :D.

What are you talking about? I just said I know Century makes crap rifles, and I'm sure if I got a legitimate HK91 it would be reliable. I just don't know, other than the $2,000 pre-ban legitimate HK91s made by HK, what those are.

prdubi
07-31-11, 14:16
I'm talking non sense....carry on.....just my observations about people in general that have bad experiences with stuff.

my whole point is that I've been lucky...KNOCK on wood...maybe it's because I inspect everything for almost an hour before buying...

same with shoes....shoestores hate me because I walk on it for 1 hour...

hell I'm gonna be wearing this thing for 8 hrs a day...how do I know that one minute of trying it on and walking back and forth like a catwalk would tell to me that this is comfortable..

FMJ556
07-31-11, 15:16
A general question about the roller delayed design: does it place relatively higher stress
and hence wear and tear on the receiver as compared to other semi/full auto designs for
the same pressure ammo ?

DeltaSierra
07-31-11, 21:57
I am in the market for a 7.62x51 rifle, and the HK-91 keeps calling...

The issue is the funding, and for that reason I have not bought a genuine HK yet...

After reading this thread, I'm seriously thinking about getting a Greek made SAR rifle, but I'm still unsure...

This rifle will be used quite a lot, and I will want to purchase spare parts as well.

Are original HK parts compatible with the Greek rifles?

Since I am looking for a rifle to shoot, I don't care how the thing looks, and I don't really care (again, I don't care from the cosmetic point of view) if it has a paddle magazine release or not. Does this have any effect on the function of the rifle and/or the type of magazines that could be used?

Thanks,

DeltaSierra

TOrrock
07-31-11, 22:09
I am in the market for a 7.62x51 rifle, and the HK-91 keeps calling...


Are original HK parts compatible with the Greek rifles?

Since I am looking for a rifle to shoot, I don't care how the thing looks, and I don't really care (again, I don't care from the cosmetic point of view) if it has a paddle magazine release or not. Does this have any effect on the function of the rifle and/or the type of magazines that could be used?

Thanks,

DeltaSierra


Yes, all parts fit.

No, no difference in function or magazines, military HK mags have a paddle and a button release, semi auto civilian G3's can't have the 3rd pin that holds the paddle mag release on. A smith can make one work without installing or modifying the rifle to be in violation of NFA regs.

DeltaSierra
07-31-11, 22:26
Yes, all parts fit.

No, no difference in function or magazines, military HK mags have a paddle and a button release, semi auto civilian G3's can't have the 3rd pin that holds the paddle mag release on. A smith can make one work without installing or modifying the rifle to be in violation of NFA regs.

So, the main differences between the SAR-3 and SAR-8 are merely cosmetic, and have nothing to do with the quality of the rifle, or parts thereof, correct?

What is the main reason to have the a smith replace the flash suppressor on the SAR-8? Is it strictly to make the weapon look like an original HK?

What is the "overstamp" SAR-3/8, and is it more desirable due to the quality of the build, or any Greek built rifles good to go?



(As a side note here, I have tried to do some research on this very issue, but all I can find is random chatter from unknown sources, and that is not very encouraging...)

TOrrock
07-31-11, 22:32
Any of the Greek stamped receivered rifles are good to go.

The SAR-3 was pre-1989 import, as close to a military G3 as they could get in the country. The SAR-3/8 were rifles that were caught up in bonded warehouses when the ban hit, and had the flash suppressor removed and a thumb hole stock installed. Springfield would sell you an "accurizing kit" for them with the original stock and pistol grip, as well as the flash suppressor to reinstall.

The SAR-8 was purpose built to be importable to the US with a thumb hole stock and "permanent" muzzle nut. Other than being neutered, it's the same quality as the earlier Greek rifles.

SteyrAUG
07-31-11, 22:33
A general question about the roller delayed design: does it place relatively higher stress
and hence wear and tear on the receiver as compared to other semi/full auto designs for
the same pressure ammo ?


I can't see how. Locked rollers keep the bolt in place more or less in the same manner as locking lugs. There is the aspect of the very heavy bolt nailing the face plate of the buttstock which in turn would possibly stress the mounting pin area but being as how there are G3s of early 60s vintage which haven't destroyed themselves I'd say it's "as strong" as any other design.

SteyrAUG
07-31-11, 22:34
Are original HK parts compatible with the Greek rifles?


DeltaSierra


Yes, as well as all other "contract" rifles.

DeltaSierra
07-31-11, 22:36
Any of the Greek stamped receivered rifles are good to go.

The SAR-3 was pre-1989 import, as close to a military G3 as they could get in the country. The SAR-3/8 were rifles that were caught up in bonded warehouses when the ban hit, and had the flash suppressor removed and a thumb hole stock installed. Springfield would sell you an "accurizing kit" for them with the original stock and pistol grip, as well as the flash suppressor to reinstall.

The SAR-8 was purpose built to be importable to the US with a thumb hole stock and "permanent" muzzle nut. Other than being neutered, it's the same quality as the earlier Greek rifles.

Thanks for the advice!

I really appreciate the general attitude on this forum towards those (like me) that just don't have any experience with certain types of weapons.

Thanks again Templar!


Yes, as well as all other "contract" rifles.

Are you selling a Greek 3/8 rifle? (I was just doing some research online, and happened across an add from a guy going by the username SteyrAUG...)

SteyrAUG
07-31-11, 22:41
Thanks for the advice!

I really appreciate the general attitude on this forum towards those (like me) that just don't have any experience with certain types of weapons.

Thanks again Templar!


Just remember the previously mentioned Springfield SAR 8s which are NOT made in Greece and are nothing more than low quality kit builds on a US cast aluminum receiver.

Any of the (EBO) "Made in Greece" marked rifles are good to go. I detailed all four of the SAR rifles on page one.

SteyrAUG
07-31-11, 22:42
Are you selling a Greek 3/8 rifle? (I was just doing some research online, and happened across an add from a guy going by the username SteyrAUG...)


Yes I am. Has a A3 collapsible stock.

Eurodriver
08-01-11, 16:33
Just saw a 1981 HK91 go up for sale on another board, I assumed it was a quality piece...went to pm the seller only to find out it had been sold already. In 30 minutes...:bad:

prdubi
08-01-11, 16:43
I would not just jump on a HK, go jump on a SAR-3 or SAR-8, pre or post ban for that matter on the Greek or Portuguese setups.

FMP X series are in quality.

Want more ultra-rare, there are the HK-41's out there also for that matter.

deejai
08-01-11, 18:36
Is the PTR 91 GI any good? I heard the barrel profile and chamber flutes are close to HK spec.

prdubi
08-01-11, 18:41
some good and some bad......while there is a bit of bitter people here and there that was messed with by them for not honoring their warranty.

YMMV with them...

DeltaSierra
08-01-11, 19:10
Is the PTR 91 GI any good? I heard the barrel profile and chamber flutes are close to HK spec.

See the original post. Your question was answered there...

a1fabweld
08-04-11, 06:46
To address the PTR questions from my 1st hand experience, I have 4 of them including 2-16" & 2-18". My oldest PTR was purchased about 4 years ago & my newest about 2 years ago. I've fired everything from Silver Bear, Wolf, UMC, Federal standard & GMM, Lithuanian, British, & German surplus ammo through all of them with 100% relaibilty. Accuracy is awesome as well. Most of my friends who were unfamiliar with the HK weapon platform bought PTR's after shooting mine. 2 of my friends who were die hard AR .308 owners/fans sold them & bought PTR's due to reliabilty problems with their AR .308's (I also sold my AR .308 for the same reason). I've heard the stories about PTR's having ejection problems due to shallow flutes or not enough flutes, but mine have functioned perfect.

armakraut
08-06-11, 18:33
Yeah, anything made by B&T out of switzerland.

Jake'sDad
08-06-11, 18:45
Thanks!

Jake'sDad
08-06-11, 19:15
Are any of the non welded on rail mounts worth using?

TOrrock
08-06-11, 19:30
Are any of the non welded on rail mounts worth using?

The Swiss Bruger & Thomet, available from DSA, are excellent.

Jake'sDad
08-06-11, 21:04
Before I click on one for 179 bucks+, am I silly for thinking it might be fun to scope my old 91 after 30 years?

prdubi
08-06-11, 21:13
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/884424141_d9abz-L-1.jpg
Here's mines on the BT rail and ARMS setup for the Hensoldt Fero scope.

It works well but not the lowest I can get it.

prdubi
08-06-11, 22:06
heavens no....the only thing that people are buggered about the rail setups and QD setups is that it will GUARANTEE to scratch up the finish on the 91. GUARANTEED unless you maybe put tape on it before installing it.

I'm exploring going the rail welded to the receiver route like the Swedish versions.

TOrrock
08-06-11, 22:07
Before I click on one for 179 bucks+, am I silly for thinking it might be fun to scope my old 91 after 30 years?


I don't think it's silly.

I know my eyes aren't the same as they were 20 years ago.

Jake'sDad
08-06-11, 22:33
I don't think it's silly.

I know my eyes aren't the same as they were 20 years ago.

Mine either, that's for sure.

But I have other more accurate rifles, just thought I'd like to see what the 91 will do with a 2-7X or something on it.

Ross
08-07-11, 13:35
I had an HK41 many years ago. I think I sold it for $950, which was good money back then (my HK-94 was $500). It was a great rifle, it was a strange bluish color and had polygonal rifling. I didn't know most HK-91-types didn't have polygonal rifling. This was right before the bans.

I was looking at the various HK-91-type rifles lately because I wanted one again. While getting a -41 would e cool and all, I was looking more at something that wasn't so valuable and a shooter. Through the years, I kinda have hesitated on the Century guns and the PTR.

I had a .308 Saiga that I was going to convert, and it was on the back burner, when I came across a guy who wanted one. He had one of the Century Import guns, that he wanted to trade. Fine with me, since I wasn't doing anything with the Saiga anyway.

The Century "Import" gun, which appears to be a Port. kit on a Port. receiver, isn't bad. I agree that it's about the quality of the kit used. It might be better to buy one of these in person, rather than over the net.

The build quality isn't on the level of a factory gun, but it's not as poor as most of the clone builds. Since I wasn't into the Saiga for much, it all worked out for me.

I think the Contract guns are the best overall value though.

raven66
09-20-11, 16:56
great pics and info!!!i true enjoy my hk 91!!

TiroFijo
11-10-11, 07:39
Bringing back this topic to life...

Questions:

What is the last year HK made a G3 (german manufacture)?

In what year the german G3 changed to the plastic, one piece grip/fire control group?

I've seen several types of plastic grips/FCG, in black, green or tan, different markings (S-E-F, 0-1-20, 0-1-3, etc.)ribbed with finger grooves or smooth all arouns (navy style). Which is the one the german army adopted? Is there a "definite" type (latest, or longest running production) or were they all made at the same time and for a long while?

Was the heavy buffer ever used in a military contract HK G3, straight from the factory?

Thanks in advance :)

prdubi
11-10-11, 10:12
I don't want to sound lazy or anything but you can do research here on the topic.
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=2&Itemid=5

you will get different opinions on it.

http://www.hkweaponsystems.com/
Too many variations and setups to explain.

SteyrAUG
11-10-11, 11:59
Bringing back this topic to life...

Questions:

What is the last year HK made a G3 (german manufacture)?

In what year the german G3 changed to the plastic, one piece grip/fire control group?

I've seen several types of plastic grips/FCG, in black, green or tan, different markings (S-E-F, 0-1-20, 0-1-3, etc.)ribbed with finger grooves or smooth all arouns (navy style). Which is the one the german army adopted? Is there a "definite" type (latest, or longest running production) or were they all made at the same time and for a long while?

Was the heavy buffer ever used in a military contract HK G3, straight from the factory?

Thanks in advance :)

Off the top of my head...

Not sure what year they stopped producing the G3. The military replaced it with the G36 but it is possible HK continued to produce it for a few more years.

For decades HK made stamped steel FCGs. It was probably sometime in the 80s that they went to a plastic one and the first was likely an S-E-F similar to the MP5. I know towards the end they had a picto lower, but keep in mind HK sometimes offered a variety of FCGs at the same time.

For the Germany Army G3, I think the stamped steel S-E-F would be accepted as the standard.

I don't think any standard G3s used a heavy buffer, but I think it may have been in the G3 SG1 rifle. I can't remember.

Heckler&Coke
02-13-12, 11:59
I'm really not sure why everyone is skeptical of the PTR. Sure, there have been a couple hiccups when they transitioned to building their own US made parts, and their base "target" model does have shallow flutes (on purpose, mind you), but both are easily overcomed issues, and overall the PTR is extremely well made. They ar emade on licensed FMP tooling, welding is suburb, the receivers are the ONLY ones in spec on the market, they come stock with the most recent H&K sights, the furniture is up to snuff, they are fairly modular, and they come with "match" BBLs and recently with reduced trigger pulls from the factory...let's be honest here, a stock G3 trigger is like dragging a grand piano down a gravel road, and PTR has taken the time to reduce it to around 5-6lbs from the factory on the current rifles.

PTR is releasing a couple new models based on the traditional G3 this year. (Finally, thank god....) This may have been the one major thing hurting PTR, that until the GI, there was no mil-spec 91 capable of eating anything you feed it. Everyone bitched and moaned about the flute issue, and when I unknowingly bought a case of indian "nato" ammo and tried to use it in my first PTR, you better believe I was on the verge of trading it with cash on the SPOT for a standard M1A. (I had a NM at the time)

The new "classic" and GI models have the proper H&K flute depth as well as the profile. They will eat all the third world garbage surplus everyone bickers over, despite all standard PTRs already eating up crappy russian and bottom of the shelf commercial ammo like it's Fillet Mignon.

The standard "target" PTRs only have issue with tar sealed third world garbage and winchester white box. Despite the ammo warnign sheet, I've found DAG & Men german milsurp to work just fine, as well as Radway brit...The tar sealant found in less than modern ammunition gums up the flutes and causes failures to extract. This has been perhaps the only major downfall of the PTR, imho...


For $1,000, it's pretty hard to beat a PTR. Buying a FMP or SAR for $1,500+ seems pointless as the PTR is off the same exact FMP tooling minus the H&K milspec barrel (now an obsolete reason with the new line), and have fun using the later SARs with horribly out of spec aluminium receivers. PTR is by far the best "clone" on the market, and the quality rivals that of H&K and FMP....You could always buy a hesse, century, or SW, LOL....I've been there and done that, may as well throw money down the drain.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/CCF02122012_00001.jpg


For full disclosure I do in fact own three PTRs, and with the new "MSR" and "classic" models coming out soon, that number is expected to grow, LOL.


Yes, I am now an unapologetic PTR homer, but for good reason. They are great rifles for the money. I ran my "K" through some pretty harsh condition and round count testing before deciding to buy another PTR, and I walked away impressed. It can survive mud, dirt, snow, rain, being frozen, and not being cleaned for a case of rusky ammo, but my the God's above forbid I stick a couple rounds of Indian ammo in it....


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/IMAG0478-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/IMAG0178-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/ptrmud4-1-1.jpg

a1fabweld
02-13-12, 14:59
I'm really not sure why everyone is skeptical of the PTR. Sure, there have been a couple hiccups when they transitioned to building their own US made parts, and their base "target" model does have shallow flutes (on purpose, mind you), but both are easily overcomed issues, and overall the PTR is extremely well made. They ar emade on licensed FMP tooling, welding is suburb, the receivers are the ONLY ones in spec on the market, they come stock with the most recent H&K sights, the furniture is up to snuff, they are fairly modular, and they come with "match" BBLs and recently with reduced trigger pulls from the factory...let's be honest here, a stock G3 trigger is like dragging a grand piano down a gravel road, and PTR has taken the time to reduce it to around 5-6lbs from the factory on the current rifles.

PTR is releasing a couple new models based on the traditional G3 this year. (Finally, thank god....) This may have been the one major thing hurting PTR, that until the GI, there was no mil-spec 91 capable of eating anything you feed it. Everyone bitched and moaned about the flute issue, and when I unknowingly bought a case of indian "nato" ammo and tried to use it in my first PTR, you better believe I was on the verge of trading it with cash on the SPOT for a standard M1A. (I had a NM at the time)

The new "classic" and GI models have the proper H&K flute depth as well as the profile. They will eat all the third world garbage surplus everyone bickers over, despite all standard PTRs already eating up crappy russian and bottom of the shelf commercial ammo like it's Fillet Mignon.

The standard "target" PTRs only have issue with tar sealed third world garbage and winchester white box. Despite the ammo warnign sheet, I've found DAG & Men german milsurp to work just fine, as well as Radway brit...The tar sealant found in less than modern ammunition gums up the flutes and causes failures to extract. This has been perhaps the only major downfall of the PTR, imho...


For $1,000, it's pretty hard to beat a PTR. Buying a FMP or SAR for $1,500+ seems pointless as the PTR is off the same exact FMP tooling minus the H&K milspec barrel (now an obsolete reason with the new line), and have fun using the later SARs with horribly out of spec aluminium receivers. PTR is by far the best "clone" on the market, and the quality rivals that of H&K and FMP....You could always buy a hesse, century, or SW, LOL....I've been there and done that, may as well throw money down the drain.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/CCF02122012_00001.jpg


For full disclosure I do in fact own three PTRs, and with the new "MSR" and "classic" models coming out soon, that number is expected to grow, LOL.


Yes, I am now an unapologetic PTR homer, but for good reason. They are great rifles for the money. I ran my "K" through some pretty harsh condition and round count testing before deciding to buy another PTR, and I walked away impressed. It can survive mud, dirt, snow, rain, being frozen, and not being cleaned for a case of rusky ammo, but my the God's above forbid I stick a couple rounds of Indian ammo in it....


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/IMAG0478-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/IMAG0178-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/vsog/ptrmud4-1-1.jpg

Damnit man, if I didn't feel the same way about the PTR lineup, I'd say you worked for the company! HAHA! I have 3 PTR's as well and they are great rifles. 2 of mine are early AW serial #'s which eat anything so far (havn't tried CAVIM yet though). The later AW serial # I have has not been beat up yet. If I have problem with it choking on garbage surplus ammo, I'll simply have it rebarreled for under $400. Not that big of a deal to me. The current lineup does have looser chamber specs & HK spec chamber flutes for "eat anything" reliability according to PTR. I'm itching to snag up a "GI" model. For the price, nothing compares to a PTR in the same caliber.

Heckler&Coke
02-13-12, 23:24
Damnit man, if I didn't feel the same way about the PTR lineup, I'd say you worked for the company! HAHA! I have 3 PTR's as well and they are great rifles. 2 of mine are early AW serial #'s which eat anything so far (havn't tried CAVIM yet though). The later AW serial # I have has not been beat up yet. If I have problem with it choking on garbage surplus ammo, I'll simply have it rebarreled for under $400. Not that big of a deal to me. The current lineup does have looser chamber specs & HK spec chamber flutes for "eat anything" reliability according to PTR. I'm itching to snag up a "GI" model. For the price, nothing compares to a PTR in the same caliber.


I have no idea how I found this site, but this was the first thread I saw, and I actually took the time to read through it and felt I could add to the conversation since I have a tonne of experience with the PTR, and people don't seem to know much of it around here.

I have thought about buying the real deal, obviously 3 PTRs and quality optics clearly set me back at least 3 H&K91s worth, but the fact is, after handling and doing some digging, I feel zero need to pay $1,500 extra to have "Made in Germany" stamped on my rifle...there is just nothing to be gained, ESPECIALLY with the new "classics" coming...I'll more than likely have the MSR and classic wood as soon as they hit the shelves...again, anoither H&K91 worth...I just can't help myself, LOL.



(Though I am not xenophobic when it comes to sidearms, you best believe that "Made in Germany, HK" stamp is worth it, or Austria for that matter. :p I have been issued US made pistols, and everytime I feel the need to destroy it so noone may ever have to use it again...:rolleyes: )

KBAR-04
02-20-12, 08:15
I have served twice as a liaison with the German military. I saw plastic SEF lower housings in the mid 80s, along with green furniture. I believe the last US imported 91s were 1988. I think the Germans adopted the G36 in 1994 after reunification but the G3 lingered on for years, especially in the reserves.

My HK41, very similar to a 60s vintage G3:

http://i41.tinypic.com/14m8ks6.jpg

Heckler&Coke
02-20-12, 11:47
I have served twice as a liaison with the German military. I saw plastic SEF lower housings in the mid 80s, along with green furniture. I believe the last US imported 91s were 1988. I think the Germans adopted the G36 in 1994 after reunification but the G3 lingered on for years, especially in the reserves.


Today it still lingered, but not with reserves....

From what I have seen, there is a lot of renewed service with the G3, I've even seen the KSK carrying them around, and it is coming back out in fair numbers as a "DMR", not unlike our dusting off the M14. Too bad the US and Germany have a habit of sawing their surplus rifles in half lately, despite the need of such rifles in specific operations and areas...


But I'm sure everyone will buy new and shiny HK417s in part of the M.I.C. instead of old tried and true designs already in the armory by the millions...

Punisher1336
02-23-12, 12:50
I bought a HK93 many years ago. Made in W Germany, its chambered for 5.56x45. It was originally tan but I had it sent out and refinished in black. I also have one of those Special Weapons SW5, which is the HK94 clone. Couldnt ever see getting anything as close to a HK94 so I bought it probably in the first or second year of production.

DiabhailGadhar
02-27-13, 22:02
Sorry to bring up an old necropost fella's but I have an itch for a 91 series and its driving me crazy..any way are the old SACO models any good and whats the story with them?

SteyrAUG
02-27-13, 23:28
Sorry to bring up an old necropost fella's but I have an itch for a 91 series and its driving me crazy..any way are the old SACO models any good and whats the story with them?

SACO (Security Arms Co) was simply the importer for HK rifles from 1974 to 1975. Heckler & Koch [Arlington, VA] — Took over the US import business themselves in 1976. Prior to 1974 the HK91 was known as the HK41 and marked accordingly.

DiabhailGadhar
02-27-13, 23:51
Thank you steyr! Also I had another question and please forgive my ignorance, but if I was to get an older weapon like that is there anything I should be worried about due specifically to the age of the weapon?

prdubi
02-28-13, 00:12
I went with a Preban FMP G-3. I didn't feel too much comfort in shooting a HK91 being it was collectible.

At least with the FMP, I did the flapper mag by GuillieBear and have a clipped and pin setup also.

Every person I met was telling me to have the flapper installed professionally would ruin the collector value of a 91 or 41.

DiabhailGadhar
02-28-13, 00:28
I'm not particularly interested in the collectability of a weapon what I want is a quality firearm that goes bang every time I pull the trigger regardless of the ammo used (now I'm not incuding royally crappy ammo here) is marginally accurate and can go a larger round count before it freezes up from being dirty...now if that weapon happens to be collectable that's unfortunate cuz I just want to become proficient with it while shooting the crap out of it...;-) If I can get an hk 91 it's definitely going to get a paddle installed just because I would like to see how I like it. I may be leaning towards a PTR classic simply because I'm looking at trading a quality AR straight across for it. But if someone just wants to get rid of a HK91 and is looking at getting into the AR game and we could work something out that would be ideal.

The guilliebear fella who's that and is it a reputable company/individual?

Thanks again.

I went with a Preban FMP G-3. I didn't feel too much comfort in shooting a HK91 being it was collectible.

At least with the FMP, I did the flapper mag by GuillieBear and have a clipped and pin setup also.

Every person I met was telling me to have the flapper installed professionally would ruin the collector value of a 91 or 41.

SteyrAUG
02-28-13, 01:59
Thank you steyr! Also I had another question and please forgive my ignorance, but if I was to get an older weapon like that is there anything I should be worried about due specifically to the age of the weapon?

Not really. Just as my 03 Springfield's and M1 Garands are running fine you don't need to worry about a 70s or 80s vintage HK unless it was used as a sear host and somebody rock n rolled the hell out of it.

SteyrAUG
02-28-13, 02:05
Pop over the HKPro and you will find a decent 91, Greek SAR or FMP come up from time to time for a good price. At this point ALL of them are now collectible, and the contracts technically are probably more rare.

Some HK collectors freak out if you take it out of the plastic and expose it to oxygen. But so long as you don't buy a premium example, adding a paddle mag won't do much. It will be more valuable in some peoples eyes and less in others. Won't matter unless you plan on trying to sell it later.

But whatever you do, NO NOT install a port buffer or buy one with a port buffer installed. That little piece of spring steel has ****ed over more HK finishes than a gunsmith with a can of spray paint.

prdubi
02-28-13, 10:56
Take it for what it is. I wouldn't bother too much with the HK91 series being I have read that well over 50k were imported to the US from the 70's until the 80's. So collectibilitiy wise, it doesn't ruin the value.

But nevertheless, I sold my HK91 and got a FMP G-3 preban in exchange and also a FAL Springfield SAR-48 from the deal.

Yeah the SAR48 ain't a Belgium correct but so what.

DiabhailGadhar
02-28-13, 17:22
ok I know this is a NFA question really but since you brought up a full auto I'm going go ahead and ask..especially considering I have the attention of a resident expert. How does the full auto scenario work with the Hk 91 especially considering the numerous examples of pre-86 models and full auto parts being relatively available. For instance the saco model that I brought up previously, they were imported prior to 86 and they can be converted to full auto? I'm not overly interested in the auto ability having used m16a2/a4 in that capacity and knowing that there are very few given scenario's where the full auto actually shows its benefit. I'm really just curious as to the application of it to the 91? please correct where ever I am mistaken.

SteyrAUG
02-28-13, 18:49
ok I know this is a NFA question really but since you brought up a full auto I'm going go ahead and ask..especially considering I have the attention of a resident expert. How does the full auto scenario work with the Hk 91 especially considering the numerous examples of pre-86 models and full auto parts being relatively available. For instance the saco model that I brought up previously, they were imported prior to 86 and they can be converted to full auto? I'm not overly interested in the auto ability having used m16a2/a4 in that capacity and knowing that there are very few given scenario's where the full auto actually shows its benefit. I'm really just curious as to the application of it to the 91? please correct where ever I am mistaken.

Any full auto conversions would need to be done PRIOR to the 86 ban.

So the fact that a rifle was imported in 62, 74 or 84 is irrelevant if the conversion wasn't done before the NFA registry was closed in 1986.

There were many ways to do conversions. You could register the receiver, register a sear (which is actually a sear trip lever), the trigger box or in some cases the trigger frame. These are the items that become the actual "machine gun" in ATFs eye's similar to how a Uzi bolt can be the actual "machine gun" if that was the part that was registered prior to the ban.

Now these registered items are regularly sold and can be transferred if you have the money for them. Since the registered item is the "actual machine gun" the rifle simply becomes the host (except in cases of a HK 91 receiver being the registered item which would have to have been done PRIOR to the 86 ban) weapon.

So if you bought a registered sear, registered trigger box or registered trigger frame you could then legally install it on ANY rifle from a preban hk41 or hk 91 to a current production PTR91.

Basically almost every G3 (the select fire .308 HK rifle) was at some point a 91 (or 41) that was converted prior to the ban or uses a part that was registered prior to the ban.

There are a few factory original HK G3s which were imported PRIOR to 1968 that are transferable but they are incredibly expensive.

There are also some really rare push pin semi autos from 1962 that can accept full auto parts. You can read about them here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33942

But just because they fit doesn't mean it is legal to do so.

DiabhailGadhar
02-28-13, 19:55
AH HA! That makes way more sense. I got it in my head that provided you had a serial number that predated the 86 ban you were cleared for full auto launch. Making it very odd in my head that people would be selling these rifles sub $10k. Steyr I have just recently found a great interest in these particular weapon system and thank you so much for sharing your obvious great wealth of knowledge of the system with me. How is it that you got interested/became familiar with them?


Any full auto conversions would need to be done PRIOR to the 86 ban.

So the fact that a rifle was imported in 62, 74 or 84 is irrelevant if the conversion wasn't done before the NFA registry was closed in 1986.

There were many ways to do conversions. You could register the receiver, register a sear (which is actually a sear trip lever), the trigger box or in some cases the trigger frame. These are the items that become the actual "machine gun" in ATFs eye's similar to how a Uzi bolt can be the actual "machine gun" if that was the part that was registered prior to the ban.

Now these registered items are regularly sold and can be transferred if you have the money for them. Since the registered item is the "actual machine gun" the rifle simply becomes the host (except in cases of a HK 91 receiver being the registered item which would have to have been done PRIOR to the 86 ban) weapon.

So if you bought a registered sear, registered trigger box or registered trigger frame you could then legally install it on ANY rifle from a preban hk41 or hk 91 to a current production PTR91.

Basically almost every G3 (the select fire .308 HK rifle) was at some point a 91 (or 41) that was converted prior to the ban or uses a part that was registered prior to the ban.

There are a few factory original HK G3s which were imported PRIOR to 1968 that are transferable but they are incredibly expensive.

There are also some really rare push pin semi autos from 1962 that can accept full auto parts. You can read about them here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33942

But just because they fit doesn't mean it is legal to do so.

DiabhailGadhar
02-28-13, 20:05
Also, I swore I read somewhere that you recommended some reading on it and I don't recall where I saw that if you could provide a reading list it would be greatly appreciated. Especially for the history and design theory. Thanks again.

SteyrAUG
02-28-13, 20:12
AH HA! That makes way more sense. I got it in my head that provided you had a serial number that predated the 86 ban you were cleared for full auto launch. Making it very odd in my head that people would be selling these rifles sub $10k. Steyr I have just recently found a great interest in these particular weapon system and thank you so much for sharing your obvious great wealth of knowledge of the system with me. How is it that you got interested/became familiar with them?


Yeah the rifle is actually irrelevant unless the receiver itself was registered as a machine gun prior to the 86 ban. The registered part (sear trip lever, etc.) has it's own serial number and that is the number on the Form 4 or Form 1.

I began collecting firearms in the 4th grade. I got my first 91 and 93 while still in high school back in 83. I had been shooting my Dads since about 79.

SteyrAUG
02-28-13, 20:14
Also, I swore I read somewhere that you recommended some reading on it and I don't recall where I saw that if you could provide a reading list it would be greatly appreciated. Especially for the history and design theory. Thanks again.

Full Circle: A Treatise on Roller Locking by Blake Stevens

The official history of the Oberndorf company Heckler & Koch by Manfred Kersten

Small Arms of the World by Edward Clinton Ezell

Larry Vickers
02-28-13, 22:47
The first time I went to HK in Germany in about 2002 or so I saw they still had the G3 on display as a production item- I was shocked because I knew FN had quit producing the FAL many years ago

The story was if an existing customer needed new guns or upgrades/replacements HK would accommodate them - they may still possibly do the same thing

The roller locked production area was very small compared to the rest of the plant which was tooled up for G36's and such- at one time obviously the roller locked production consumed the whole plant but now it is a tiny fraction of its former self

As far as books go Full Circle from Collector Grade is highly recommended - excellent book

HK would get away from roller locked guns entirely if they could but with guns like the G3 and in particular the MP5 around they probably won't be able to do that anytime soon

SteyrAUG
02-28-13, 23:37
HK would get away from roller locked guns entirely if they could but with guns like the G3 and in particular the MP5 around they probably won't be able to do that anytime soon


From what I have been told HK has been trying to discontinue the MP5 series for almost a decade now and nobody will let them.

I think my HK LE catalogs showed the G3 and G3k as a production item until about 2005. The HK 53 is still currently in production I believe, although the 33 and 33k are not.

Larry Vickers
03-01-13, 06:47
That sounds about right on the MP5- the fact of the matter is they don't have a good alternative; the UMP is not even half he gun the MP5 is- ergonomically it has some pluses, and it is reliable by and large, but it missed the mark in so many ways

They could take a page out of SIG's book believe it or not and come out with an improved SMG- SIG's Robert Hirt saw that ( former HK employee whom I worked with on the 416 project ) and that was a major reason they have one now in the MPX

We shall see how it does in the market as SIG's track record lately isn't that great

montrala
03-01-13, 08:10
Do not know about G3, but PSG-1 is still production item. Seen boxes full of new PSG-1 stamped receiver on production line. If they can make PSG-1 receiver, they for sure can make G3 one.

SteyrAUG
03-01-13, 13:18
That sounds about right on the MP5- the fact of the matter is they don't have a good alternative; the UMP is not even half he gun the MP5 is- ergonomically it has some pluses, and it is reliable by and large, but it missed the mark in so many ways

They could take a page out of SIG's book believe it or not and come out with an improved SMG- SIG's Robert Hirt saw that ( former HK employee whom I worked with on the 416 project ) and that was a major reason they have one now in the MPX

We shall see how it does in the market as SIG's track record lately isn't that great

While I love my UMP, you are right. It just isn't a MP5. Never seen a picture of one but "supposedly" HK prototyped a MP5/45 (similar to the MP5/10 and MP5/40) before they went forward with the UMP. I can only imagine what a wonderful world it could have been had they taken something like a MP5/45 into production.

But as you observed, they are trying to move completely away from stamped steel and roller bolts. They are into the plastic fantastics, which is why the XM8 was so over hyped.

SteyrAUG
03-01-13, 13:19
Do not know about G3, but PSG-1 is still production item. Seen boxes full of new PSG-1 stamped receiver on production line. If they can make PSG-1 receiver, they for sure can make G3 one.


I'm not sure about that one either. I don't think the PSG1 was in my last LE catalog.

montrala
03-01-13, 14:38
I'm not sure about that one either. I don't think the PSG1 was in my last LE catalog.

It is in mine, that I got last October, along with MSG90 A2. Both are on HK global and USA webpages (MSG90 A1 for USA). And those receivers were PSG1 A1, plus I you can still shoot demo PSG1 A1. What more do you need?

ETA: MP5 is also in this cataloge.

SteyrAUG
03-01-13, 16:02
It is in mine, that I got last October, along with MSG90 A2. Both are on HK global and USA webpages (MSG90 A1 for USA). And those receivers were PSG1 A1, plus I you can still shoot demo PSG1 A1. What more do you need?

ETA: MP5 is also in this cataloge.


Good to know. I still need a PSG1 one day.

And yes the MP5s are still in there, hell they were even forced to come up with a multi position F stock because nobody is going to let them discontinue the series.

DiabhailGadhar
03-03-13, 20:25
Is anyone in this thread a ar15.com member if so could some one please PM me, I wanted to ask a member there a question about the rifle he's selling (ptr91 classic black). I'm currently not a member there and it would be a week before I could get an account there. Also is anyone who has one or has intimate knowledge of the GI, Classic wood/Black models have any input on these newer models?

SteyrAUG
03-03-13, 23:28
Sorry haven't been an arfcom member for awhile now.

Also have zero experience with recent production PTRs.

a1fabweld
03-04-13, 08:41
The currently manufactured ptrs run great. They had some problems a while back but got them sorted out. Stay away from serial #s aw3000-aw8000 as they had non HK spec chambers and could be finicky with ammo. I have some of the good ones and they run 100%.

prdubi
03-04-13, 09:30
While the current ones run great....those with the funny made chambers, PTR kept saying, you can't use surplus ammo, can't use steal, can't use anything including WWB ammo from Walmart. Basically you can only use BRAND NEW QUALITY modern made brass ammo.

They wouldn't rectify those with that problem from what I read.


But new ones are great....they fixed the problem......bigger problem in my opinion is that they fixed it based on earlier people being test lab rats for them with no fixing of their problems.

I could have this whole thing all wrong also but this was based on accounts

a1fabweld
03-04-13, 09:51
While the current ones run great....those with the funny made chambers, PTR kept saying, you can't use surplus ammo, can't use steal, can't use anything including WWB ammo from Walmart. Basically you can only use BRAND NEW QUALITY modern made brass ammo.

They wouldn't rectify those with that problem from what I read.


But new ones are great....they fixed the problem......bigger problem in my opinion is that they fixed it based on earlier people being test lab rats for them with no fixing of their problems.

I could have this whole thing all wrong also but this was based on accounts
Some people are pissed at PTR for doing what they did regarding that bad run of rifles they put out. I had a bad one & had to have it rebarreled on my dime. But the fact remains that for $1k, nobody makes a better G3 clone than they do. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new PTR.

SteyrAUG
03-04-13, 15:41
Some people are pissed at PTR for doing what they did regarding that bad run of rifles they put out. I had a bad one & had to have it rebarreled on my dime. But the fact remains that for $1k, nobody makes a better G3 clone than they do. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a new PTR.

I did a group buy one them when they first came out because they LOOKED great. I ended up with one with cycle / extraction issues and a sloppy fitting trigger frame.

I took the time to have the sloppy fitting trigger frame professionally corrected by a smith and then sent the rifle back to PTR to get the cycle / extraction issues corrected. I sent a letter explaining that I had corrected the slop fit trigger frame issue and to make sure they didn't do anything to change it.

They did whatever they did to supposedly fix the cycling / extraction issue then REMOVED my custom corrected trigger frame and replaced it with a slop fit trigger frame which they corrected by adding a small piece of adhesive velcro to the front of it which actually enhanced the extraction problem.

When I got the rifle back I immediately called them and said WTF. It became clear they didn't bother to even read the letter and gave my rifle the "standard going over" that they gave every rifle returned for problems. I tried to see if they could find the trigger group I sent in that was corrected and send it to me. They were unwilling to try.

I observed zero changes or improvements in the existing cycling / extraction problem. And now I had a sloppy fitting trigger frame that they "shimmed" with a piece of velcro. I was also out the money I paid to have the trigger frame issue professionally corrected.

I then put the rifle on gunbroker "as is" and sold it at a loss.

That was the last PTR product I ever purchased. Shame too, I really wanted to like that rifle.

a1fabweld
03-04-13, 16:49
I did a group buy one them when they first came out because they LOOKED great. I ended up with one with cycle / extraction issues and a sloppy fitting trigger frame.

I took the time to have the sloppy fitting trigger frame professionally corrected by a smith and then sent the rifle back to PTR to get the cycle / extraction issues corrected. I sent a letter explaining that I had corrected the slop fit trigger frame issue and to make sure they didn't do anything to change it.

They did whatever they did to supposedly fix the cycling / extraction issue then REMOVED my custom corrected trigger frame and replaced it with a slop fit trigger frame which they corrected by adding a small piece of adhesive velcro to the front of it which actually enhanced the extraction problem.

When I got the rifle back I immediately called them and said WTF. It became clear they didn't bother to even read the letter and gave my rifle the "standard going over" that they gave every rifle returned for problems. I tried to see if they could find the trigger group I sent in that was corrected and send it to me. They were unwilling to try.

I observed zero changes or improvements in the existing cycling / extraction problem. And now I had a sloppy fitting trigger frame that they "shimmed" with a piece of velcro. I was also out the money I paid to have the trigger frame issue professionally corrected.

I then put the rifle on gunbroker "as is" and sold it at a loss.

That was the last PTR product I ever purchased. Shame too, I really wanted to like that rifle.

That sucks man. Sorry to hear about your bad experience with PTR. Other than the tight chambered rifles they put out, I always found PTR's to be very well built, accurate & reliable. It'd be hard to have a 91 clone built from a parts kit for even close to what they sell theirs for.

DiabhailGadhar
03-04-13, 20:28
I'm def looking at them I have for whatever reason fallen in love with the g3 rifles and really only have the one financial option, id love to get an hk but I only have an ar to trade, while that build is a solid one and problem would pull atleast a 1600 dollar price tag in today's BS market I still am learning and doing research before I make the command decision to "pull the trigger" on that one.

Oh another question I've been pondering does anyone have any experience operating these left handed? I'm on of those right handed left I dominate guys...FML..

bubba04
03-04-13, 20:32
I'm def looking at them I have for whatever reason fallen in love with the g3 rifles and really only have the one financial option, id love to get an hk but I only have an ar to trade, while that build is a solid one and problem would pull atleast a 1600 dollar price tag in today's BS market I still am learning and doing research before I make the command decision to "pull the trigger" on that one.

Oh another question I've been pondering does anyone have any experience operating these left handed? I'm on of those right handed left I dominate guys...FML..

When things return back to normalish....a GREEK EBO Sar8 or Sar3 (even better) or SAR 8 over stamp are great, and can normally be had a really good prices. Do not get one of the crappy springfield versions.

DiabhailGadhar
03-04-13, 20:46
Yeah I'd just hate to get my hands on a potenially collectable firearm just to abuse it like I'm notorious for...

The_War_Wagon
03-04-13, 21:14
...I then put the rifle on gunbroker "as is" and sold it at a loss.

That was the last PTR product I ever purchased. Shame too, I really wanted to like that rifle.

It's not unlike buying a new car, and taking it back to the dealership, while it's still under warranty.

Once the warranty expires, you can either fix it yourself, or take it to the REAL mechanic. ;)

a1fabweld
03-04-13, 21:22
When things return back to normalish....a GREEK EBO Sar8 or Sar3 (even better) or SAR 8 over stamp are great, and can normally be had a really good prices. Do not get one of the crappy springfield versions.

SAR-8's are bad ass. A decent one brings about $1700+ in non-panic times nowdays. Still half of a genuine 91 though.

DiabhailGadhar
03-04-13, 22:59
That sounds more like a lemon law then a warranty issue...


It's not unlike buying a new car, and taking it back to the dealership, while it's still under warranty.

Once the warranty expires, you can either fix it yourself, or take it to the REAL mechanic. ;)

SteyrAUG
03-05-13, 13:33
It's not unlike buying a new car, and taking it back to the dealership, while it's still under warranty.

Once the warranty expires, you can either fix it yourself, or take it to the REAL mechanic. ;)

The rifle was still under warranty when I sold it. I just didn't have any remaining faith that sending it in again would fix any of the problems I sent it in for the first time.

They couldn't even read a ONE PAGE letter with complete instructions. And when they "fix" somethings that has obviously been correctly addressed already and replace it with ill fitting parts and a shim and then lose the corrected part you paid for...well that is Century Arms quality warranty work.

I think I sold about a dozen of these with the original group buy we did. Every single one of them had the same problem and every single person experienced a similar "warranty" story. They taught me there and then that it is a product I do not want to own and cannot be associated with.

I didn't make any of the damn guns but about a dozen people were less than happy with "me."

das Gewehr
06-10-13, 18:04
I tried to post this and I hope I just hit the wrong button and it didn't go up. Don't want you all to have to see a duplicate post.

First off, I'm a new member. First post. Thanks to all for having me. I'm a former FMF Navy Corpsman, my Dad was an enlisted Marine and my boy's a Marine Lt. attending aviation school at NAS Pensacola, so as the "Navy" man in the family, I am the black sheep. I do bring many years of medical training to the forum, though, so I hope I can be helpful. I'm not too shabby with guns, either, if I may say so.

I know what I am going to say in the next paragraph is heresy, but I acquired a Springfield Armory pre-89 SAR-3 in pristine condition in exchange for some unneeded and rarely used firearms.

I always wanted a good .308 carbine and sent my SAR-3 to Jayson at IGF (Investment Grade Firearms) and had him convert it to G3K configuration. It has a 12.5" barrel with a permanently attached 4" four-pronged flash hider. It looks and functions beautifully.

The rifle can be deployed easily in a vehicle or on foot.

I have a ventilated handguard with picatinny rails from HKParts.net, two standard G3 stocks and a Choate side folding stock. (Had the H&K collapsible, but it beats the crap out of ones face). For a grip, I have the Magpul AFG.

Optically, I'm using the H&K STANAG claw-mount with a Hensoldt Fero-Z 24 4x scope with a battery-powered reticle illuminator. I can still use the standard irons with this set-up.

I know I am losing some fps with the short barrel, but I wanted a dead reliable carbine that packs a punch and this bad boy fits the bill. Additionally, mags were plentiful and cheap, although I must now keep them out of state due to NY's stupid SAFE Act. Will move the rifle prior to required "registration" by January. For longer range work, I have a variety of scoped bolt guns in .223, .308 and .300 WM.

All-in-all, she's a beautiful carbine, rugged, reliable and accurate, albeit heavy. I would do it again tomorrow and every day after given the choice. Jayson did a fine job.

SteyrAUG
06-10-13, 23:38
I tried to post this and I hope I just hit the wrong button and it didn't go up. Don't want you all to have to see a duplicate post.

First off, I'm a new member. First post. Thanks to all for having me. I'm a former FMF Navy Corpsman, my Dad was an enlisted Marine and my boy's a Marine Lt. attending aviation school at NAS Pensacola, so as the "Navy" man in the family, I am the black sheep. I do bring many years of medical training to the forum, though, so I hope I can be helpful. I'm not too shabby with guns, either, if I may say so.

I know what I am going to say in the next paragraph is heresy, but I acquired a Springfield Armory pre-89 SAR-3 in pristine condition in exchange for some unneeded and rarely used firearms.

I always wanted a good .308 carbine and sent my SAR-3 to Jayson at IGF (Investment Grade Firearms) and had him convert it to G3K configuration. It has a 12.5" barrel with a permanently attached 4" four-pronged flash hider. It looks and functions beautifully.

The rifle can be deployed easily in a vehicle or on foot.

I have a ventilated handguard with picatinny rails from HKParts.net, two standard G3 stocks and a Choate side folding stock. (Had the H&K collapsible, but it beats the crap out of ones face). For a grip, I have the Magpul AFG.

Optically, I'm using the H&K STANAG claw-mount with a Hensoldt Fero-Z 24 4x scope with a battery-powered reticle illuminator. I can still use the standard irons with this set-up.

I know I am losing some fps with the short barrel, but I wanted a dead reliable carbine that packs a punch and this bad boy fits the bill. Additionally, mags were plentiful and cheap, although I must now keep them out of state due to NY's stupid SAFE Act. Will move the rifle prior to required "registration" by January. For longer range work, I have a variety of scoped bolt guns in .223, .308 and .300 WM.

All-in-all, she's a beautiful carbine, rugged, reliable and accurate, albeit heavy. I would do it again tomorrow and every day after given the choice. Jayson did a fine job.

Too late now but I would have sent it to ARS for their G3k job. Information can be found on Page 3 of this topic.

I'm amazed you are able to deal with the Choate side folder on a .308, mine quickly became a mousetrap and the bolt carrier destroyed the rubber plug they claim is a recoil buffer.

Yes, the sliding parastock is horrible and functions mostly as a meat tenderizer. I have one on a 51 and the only reason it's still there is it looks cool and I rarely shoot it.

Any .308 HK I actually shoot has a fixed stock and nothing else. At least you have a decent rifle, SAR-3s are great guns and you can always decide to change the stock if and when you decide the Choate sucks.

And welcome to the forum.

das Gewehr
06-11-13, 08:11
Too late now but I would have sent it to ARS for their G3k job. Information can be found on Page 3 of this topic.

I'm amazed you are able to deal with the Choate side folder on a .308, mine quickly became a mousetrap and the bolt carrier destroyed the rubber plug they claim is a recoil buffer.

Yes, the sliding parastock is horrible and functions mostly as a meat tenderizer. I have one on a 51 and the only reason it's still there is it looks cool and I rarely shoot it.

Any .308 HK I actually shoot has a fixed stock and nothing else. At least you have a decent rifle, SAR-3s are great guns and you can always decide to change the stock if and when you decide the Choate sucks.

And welcome to the forum.

Actually, I did speak with the gent from ARS, but he had a really bad attitude about it. I do realize, as it's a trait that I possess as well, that he may have just been having a bad day or maybe someone had just really ticked him off before speaking with me on the phone, so I didn't take offense.

Initially, some jack*** at ORF had the gun and kept telling me "two more weeks" for 14 months until I got so angry I said to send it back. When I got it, it was in the original box I mailed it in, unopened. It just had a new shipping label slapped over my original. That was way back before I knew there were so many unqualified, poorly run outfits out there. With the gun situation being what it is, especially in NY, I probably won't send any of my "good" guns out for long term gunsmithing as laws change and you can get screwed, as I did by putting a WASR up for consignment, only to have NY pass the SAFE Act and it made selling the gun in NY illegal and the gunstore wouldn't give it back to me as the "fine print" said they have 180 days to sell it and you can't get it back until then.

Jayson at IGF truly did an awesome job on the rifle. He told me up front that it was going to be quite a while (gave me a time frame) and stuck to it. He kept me informed and delivered when promised. The finished product was fantastic.

FWIW, I have had no problems with the Choate (must've got a good one) and I practice with it constantly as I believe there is no use in having a piece of equipment if you cannot employ it it an instant without even thinking. I guess it's a remnant of my military days.

As I said, I have 2 H&K standard stocks and I often use one in place of the choate. Again, have to be ready if one breaks and be good with it. I've been thinking about getting the Magpul larger stock as well, but at over two bills, it can wait. Throwing more money into loading components right now.

Maybe you, or one of the other forum members can answer this: I also bought a H & K plastic trigger housing from IGF that was properly modified for semi-auto only guns. The thing is, it has the S-E-F markings on it. I have put it in the "F" (Feuerstoss) or full-auto setting, just to ensure there would be NO accidental FA discharge and it works as a semi. I just worry that people at the range give the gun the "fisheye" when they see the S-E-F group, even though it doesn't function as such. I love the feel of the plastic group, but am loathe to use it at the range for that reason. Is it fully legal, or can someone make an issue of it. It's not the internals, just a housing. Thanks.

Thomas M-4
06-11-13, 08:19
Every clone build I have ever seen had the SEF converted trigger group. I really wouldn't give it a second thought hell most don't even know what SEF means.

SteyrAUG
06-11-13, 13:16
Actually, I did speak with the gent from ARS, but he had a really bad attitude about it. I do realize, as it's a trait that I possess as well, that he may have just been having a bad day or maybe someone had just really ticked him off before speaking with me on the phone, so I didn't take offense.

Initially, some jack*** at ORF had the gun and kept telling me "two more weeks" for 14 months until I got so angry I said to send it back. When I got it, it was in the original box I mailed it in, unopened. It just had a new shipping label slapped over my original. That was way back before I knew there were so many unqualified, poorly run outfits out there. With the gun situation being what it is, especially in NY, I probably won't send any of my "good" guns out for long term gunsmithing as laws change and you can get screwed, as I did by putting a WASR up for consignment, only to have NY pass the SAFE Act and it made selling the gun in NY illegal and the gunstore wouldn't give it back to me as the "fine print" said they have 180 days to sell it and you can't get it back until then.

I have heard that about ARS before, it's a shame. You also seem to have had a "common experience" with ORF. Sadly there are LOTS of smiths who no longer seem to enjoy their work and many, many who have no idea what they are doing.

"Two weeks" is a industry joke term and loosely translates to "**** off, stop calling me."




Jayson at IGF truly did an awesome job on the rifle. He told me up front that it was going to be quite a while (gave me a time frame) and stuck to it. He kept me informed and delivered when promised. The finished product was fantastic.

Jason is a good guy, I'd also recommend Curtis at S&H Arms.



FWIW, I have had no problems with the Choate (must've got a good one) and I practice with it constantly as I believe there is no use in having a piece of equipment if you cannot employ it it an instant without even thinking. I guess it's a remnant of my military days.

As I said, I have 2 H&K standard stocks and I often use one in place of the choate. Again, have to be ready if one breaks and be good with it. I've been thinking about getting the Magpul larger stock as well, but at over two bills, it can wait. Throwing more money into loading components right now.

Maybe you, or one of the other forum members can answer this: I also bought a H & K plastic trigger housing from IGF that was properly modified for semi-auto only guns. The thing is, it has the S-E-F markings on it. I have put it in the "F" (Feuerstoss) or full-auto setting, just to ensure there would be NO accidental FA discharge and it works as a semi. I just worry that people at the range give the gun the "fisheye" when they see the S-E-F group, even though it doesn't function as such. I love the feel of the plastic group, but am loathe to use it at the range for that reason. Is it fully legal, or can someone make an issue of it. It's not the internals, just a housing. Thanks.

You have a semi only legal pack. You are no more illegal than if you took a crayon and scribbled AUTO on your AR-15 rifle. Now being legal and having local authorities who understand you are legal can be two different things.

BTL BRN
09-30-13, 11:07
A bit of a bump here, but I am seriously considering a PTR-91 at the moment and need a bit of advice.

I am debating between a GI model and adding the MFI claw mount, or pressing the easy button and purchasing the PTR with the rail already welded on the receiver. The price difference is nominal, so it comes down to a question of quality. The rail is welded directly at the PTR factory.

Thanks! :D

a1fabweld
09-30-13, 12:26
If you plan on running optics primarily, get the one with the factory welded steel rail. My buddy has one & they do a great job at PTR installing them. Plus it will stiffen the receiver slightly which can't be a bad thing. No bolt-on/clamp-on rail will be as rigid as the welded rail.

They didn't offer factory installed rails back when I was buying PTR's so I welded my own rail on. First I stripped the powder coating off the receiver, bought the rail ($100), welded it on myself, then sent it out to have the receiver re-coated ($100). Long story short, just get the railed version for the extra $100 or so.

SPQR476
09-30-13, 12:35
A bit of a bump here, but I am seriously considering a PTR-91 at the moment and need a bit of advice.

I am debating between a GI model and adding the MFI claw mount, or pressing the easy button and purchasing the PTR with the rail already welded on the receiver. The price difference is nominal, so it comes down to a question of quality. The rail is welded directly at the PTR factory.

Thanks! :D

Welded rail if you're looking to run optics. My MFIs work well, but the welded rail guns I have are just way easier no worries. There are some special run GIs out there that also have welded rails in that format.

a1fabweld
09-30-13, 12:55
Welded rail if you're looking to run optics. My MFIs work well, but the welded rail guns I have are just way easier no worries. There are some special run GIs out there that also have welded rails in that format.

When are you guys going to start making products for the HK platform? Some handguard, stock, & magazine choices would be nice. Especially magazines for the 93.

TiroFijo
09-30-13, 13:03
What kind of scope+rings are you guys running with the welded rails?

Can you use see-through rings to keep the iron sights operative? If so, what rings are quality made and allow the lowest scope position?

A decently low mounted 1-4x or 1-6X scope with see-thru rings would be great.

SPQR476
09-30-13, 13:15
What kind of scope+rings are you guys running with the welded rails?

Can you use see-through rings to keep the iron sights operative? If so, what rings are quality made and allow the lowest scope position?

A decently low mounted 1-4x or 1-6X scope with see-thru rings would be great.

Larue LT123, although I still have some ARMS medium rings. With the arms mediums, you may have to open the notch of the 100 yard setting on the diopter sight. Depending on the optic, you still may have to clip the corners on the sight for the Larues.

For the ARMs, the highs work better at allowing a sight picture through the rings, but it's still usable with the mediums, and I like it lower.

You'll also need to play with a cheek riser. There are some commercial options out there, but since the sighting systems aren't on the same plane, you need a quickly changeable or removable cheek riser for best results. I either use a PRS2 or I make kydex saddles that rip off in about a second to get back down to proper iron sight height. If you use 123s or med ARMS, you can still use the irons with the cheekriser for the optic on, it's just not ideal.

TiroFijo
09-30-13, 13:53
Thanks SPQR476!

Do you have some pics of setups with these rings/mounts?

I would prefer no cheek riser and tolerate something close to a jaw weld if the scope is not too high.

Fjallhrafn
09-30-13, 14:20
Does this mean that current production PTRs are good-to-go, as they say?

SPQR476
09-30-13, 14:30
18257

first prototype cheek riser.

yoni
09-30-13, 15:14
I have 3 PTR's and they all run great.

Even the 2 model 32's I have run great.

I wish they would make a run of their top of the line rifle as I would buy it in a heart beat.

a1fabweld
09-30-13, 17:59
Does this mean that current production PTRs are good-to-go, as they say?

Yea, the current PTR's are good to go. The ones with tight chambers (extraction issues) are approx. serial # AW3000-AW8000. I have a few early ones which eat anything including the nasty tar sealed Venezuelan stuff . The early JLD PTR's run good. Reports of the newer ones are great as well. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a current PTR. Not one of mine have ever performed less than 100%

torsf
09-30-13, 20:30
Atlantic sells the version with the welded rail. I have one & love it. Wish it came with a paddle installed & RCM nitride barrel. For $1k I can't complain.


Sent from mobile

Fjallhrafn
09-30-13, 20:55
Hmm... I may need to add an AG-3F2 clone to my stable....

ETA: Mags. I think I've read that the aluminum ones are pretty much as good as the steel ones, just slightly less rugged. Truth?

Arctic1
10-01-13, 06:17
For an AG-3F2 build you need the following B&T products:

http://www.bt-ag.ch/en/manufacturing/handguards/rifle_handguards.php?pid=335

http://www.bt-ag.ch/en/manufacturing/mountingsystems/optical_sight_mounts.php?pid=573

I don't know who builds the retractable stock with adjustable length of pull, but it has 3 positions: Fully collapsed, fully extended and 2/3 extenden. I am thinking that HK built it for the upgrade we were doing.

The issued optic was an Aimpoint Comp M4.

Re the aluminum magazines, they worked well for me over the 7 years I was issued an AG-3. The do get bent feedlips and dents in the magazine body, but for us they were easily replaced. One major benefit was the light weight. They need frequent cleaning if used for more active shooting than square range stuff.

Never tried the steel mags....

Fjallhrafn
10-01-13, 08:03
Thanks, Arctic.

DSArms used to import both of those. And they still show the handguard on their website, but it's as a "call us to order". I imagine that with a part number from B&T's website (which you have kindly provided a link to), I can probably get both.

And I'll probably have to settle for the standard A3 stock, since the PTRs use polymer trigger housings, it will never be "correct" anyway... and I suspect I'll probably never be able to find an original AG-3 fixed stock, although an AG-3 would be easier to put together if that were the case.

Anyhue. Thanks again!

:)

TiroFijo
10-01-13, 08:19
The AG-3F2 looks cool, but the B&T mount and handguard would add 0.6 kg to an already heavy rifle...

The welded mount would be stronger, simpler, and lighter, and instead of the B&T aluminum handguard simply a small section of piccatinny rail could be added to the plastic handguard.

The G3 collapsible stock is also heavier and much more uncomfortable than the fixed one, and does not allow use of a heavy buffer that improves a lot management of the recoil.

BTL BRN
10-01-13, 11:29
Thanks for the replies I got to my questions, I purchased a PTR-91 A3S from Atlantic; the welded rail did seem like the easy button to me.

Now I have to determine an optic, I was leaning ACOG; but I think something in the 3x9 variable range might be a better choice. :confused:

TiroFijo
10-01-13, 11:32
The optic will depend on how you'll expect to use the rifle...

SPQR476
10-01-13, 11:48
Thanks for the replies I got to my questions, I purchased a PTR-91 A3S from Atlantic; the welded rail did seem like the easy button to me.

Now I have to determine an optic, I was leaning ACOG; but I think something in the 3x9 variable range might be a better choice. :confused:

It's gotta be short. A leupy 2.5-8x MRT is about as long as you can go without interfering with the charging handle or having a PSG-1 handle.

And yes, what's it for? All my "general purpose" PTRs have some manner of 1-4, 1.5-5, or other LPV on them. DMR has 2.5-8x. YMMV.

Arctic1
10-01-13, 11:54
The AG-3F2 looks cool, but the B&T mount and handguard would add 0.6 kg to an already heavy rifle...

The welded mount would be stronger, simpler, and lighter, and instead of the B&T aluminum handguard simply a small section of piccatinny rail could be added to the plastic handguard.

The G3 collapsible stock is also heavier and much more uncomfortable than the fixed one, and does not allow use of a heavy buffer that improves a lot management of the recoil.

I know it is heavy, I was issued the F2 ;)

I was just providing accurate information to Fjallhrafn, about the parts actually used for the F2 mod.

Regarding the retractable stock, I actually prefer it over the fixed stock for most types of shooting. Granted, the pad is convex, but that stems from HK's shooting style of placing the buttstock centerline of the chest, or armor plate, and "rolling" the gun up when presenting. Not a fan of that shooting style, but I had no issues achieving a proper stock- or cheekweld with the retractable one.

A bit more challenging when adding an optic, as the height over bore is quite substantial, but still doable.

BTL BRN
10-01-13, 11:55
It's gotta be short. A leupy 2.5-8x MRT is about as long as you can go without interfering with the charging handle or having a PSG-1 handle.

And yes, what's it for? All my "general purpose" PTRs have some manner of 1-4, 1.5-5, or other LPV on them. DMR has 2.5-8x. YMMV.

Sorry, I suppose I left out a bit of vital information didn't I?

I am thinking DMR as the role it will fill; essentially why I went .308, to go beyond what the traditional envelope of the 5.56 is.

TiroFijo
10-01-13, 13:14
I know it is heavy, I was issued the F2 ;)

I was just providing accurate information to Fjallhrafn, about the parts actually used for the F2 mod.

Regarding the retractable stock, I actually prefer it over the fixed stock for most types of shooting. Granted, the pad is convex, but that stems from HK's shooting style of placing the buttstock centerline of the chest, or armor plate, and "rolling" the gun up when presenting. Not a fan of that shooting style, but I had no issues achieving a proper stock- or cheekweld with the retractable one.

A bit more challenging when adding an optic, as the height over bore is quite substantial, but still doable.

Artic1, you always provide good information, thanks :)

The retractable stock performs better with a lot of clothing, thick combat vest or armor, but for me and with light clothing (I live in a tropical country) it is not as comfortable as the fixed one for extended shooting. This said, with real HK G3's the recoil is not nearly as bad as some people in US forums say. Perhaps it is due to in-spec rollers or ???

a1fabweld
10-01-13, 13:17
I've grown extremely fond of the ACOG over the last few years. To me it fits the role of best all around optic. It's short, lightweight, no batteries to worry about, awesome glass, and one of the many reticle options can be matched to your needs.

I took a few carbine classes this year & used my ACOG strictly to see for myself how a fixed 4 power would perform from 10 feet to 200 yards. Mind you this was with a 16" AR. I did very well to say the least with my ACOG. There were some awesome shooters in the classes & I noticed many of them were frustrated when we compared groups/hits/accuracy. If it's a DMR role you seek to fill with your PTR, I'd go for a 2-10 scope (or something of that nature), or an ACOG. The charging handle issue is something to think about with long scopes however. One of my PTR's has a Bushnell 3-12x44 FFP scope on it & racking the charging handle takes some getting used to.

I may be way off track & full of shit here compared to more experienced shooters, but this is my story.

BTL BRN
10-02-13, 16:01
Thanks for your input, I am now in the optic debating stage ...

ACOG certainly seems like the easy button choice, but I think I want something with more magnification. I am leaning towards something akin to the Leupold Mark 4 2.5x8 for example, but I realize that the cocking handle location will limit my choices some.

torsf
10-02-13, 16:16
I put a 3.5 acog on mine... Had a lpv on there but it made the CH awkward. Acog fits perfectly to me.

Celt
10-02-13, 21:15
I'm also looking at a DMR 7.62 rifle. I would go the AR10 route but every manufacturer's version is non-compatible with the other unlike the AR15.

I'm trying to decide now on whether or not to buy an original HK91 or Atlantic Firearms PTR w/rail. The HK is a known quantity but the new PTR's especially the GI models have gotten great reviews.

I wish PTR would come out with a GI model with a hammer forged and nitrited barrel...

Decisions, decisions.

a1fabweld
10-03-13, 00:18
I'm also looking at a DMR 7.62 rifle. I would go the AR10 route but every manufacturer's version is non-compatible with the other unlike the AR15.

I'm trying to decide now on whether or not to buy an original HK91 or Atlantic Firearms PTR w/rail. The HK is a known quantity but the new PTR's especially the GI models have gotten great reviews.

I wish PTR would come out with a GI model with a hammer forged and nitrited barrel...

Decisions, decisions.

A genuine HK91 is the cats whiskers no doubt. But for 1/3 the price you can have a PTR which will shoot well if not as well as the real deal. With ammo prices as high as they are, I can't imagine you'll wear out a PTR barrel any time soon. You could always have a rifle built with a RCM nitrided barrel. Or you could buy a Greek SAR-8 which is a HK contracted rifle built by Hellenic Arms in Greece. They are every bit as quality as a 91 but only run about $2K.

KBAR-04
10-13-13, 06:16
I have to agree with you. i suspect the myth of G3 recoil is due to clones...My 66 and 74 HK41s seem to have fairly soft recoil and I have A3 stocks on both of them. I do have the older style A3 stocks on them though. My 5'1 120 pound daughter can shoot it with no problem.


I know it is heavy, I was issued the F2 ;)

I was just providing accurate information to Fjallhrafn, about the parts actually used for the F2 mod.

Regarding the retractable stock, I actually prefer it over the fixed stock for most types of shooting. Granted, the pad is convex, but that stems from HK's shooting style of placing the buttstock centerline of the chest, or armor plate, and "rolling" the gun up when presenting. Not a fan of that shooting style, but I had no issues achieving a proper stock- or cheekweld with the retractable one.

A bit more challenging when adding an optic, as the height over bore is quite substantial, but still doable.

Javelin
10-13-13, 12:07
We need to sticky this thread. It's been informative.

BTL BRN
10-13-13, 17:01
Agreed, fantastic information; as I am beginning on my roller lock journey.

Oh, and btw I went with a Browe 4x32 and so far I am VERY impressed; nice glass and some features that the ACOG doesn't have. Still haven't fully wrung it out, but I like what I see so far. :cool:

BoyScout4Life
10-13-13, 18:20
There's also a very rare variant, one of the first ones to come in were actually marked G3. I'll swear to whatever deity you hold dear.....I had one. Came in the old pre ban Springfield Green Box.



I believe you Mr. T.Rock, I got one. One of 500 imported prior to HK saying no can use "G3" on rifle. Picked it up at a funshow 90%+. Only because former owner had it sporting a scope.

This is a great post...:D

HKGuns
10-13-13, 19:02
Sorry haven't been an arfcom member for awhile now.

Can't blame you for that....I quit that place like a bad habit because of all the garbage that goes on over there. I think I had an account for all of 6 months.

Great information on the G3 and thanks for posting. I just bought one and have learned a lot from you in this thread.

Fjallhrafn
11-13-13, 21:30
Been a couple months, but since I'm eying an AG-3F2 clone again….

If I were to buy a Norwegian contract bolt carrier, how difficult would it be to put into a PTR-91?

I mean, I know it's stupid simple to pop a bolt out of an AR-15 BCG and throw it into another BCG, ditto the AK and the FAL. But are HK91s the same way?

a1fabweld
11-13-13, 21:50
You can swap bolts but you need to check bolt gap. Even if its not within spec, it can be adjusted with different size rollers and locking piece.

Fjallhrafn
11-13-13, 21:57
If I keep the same bolt but swap the carriers, do I need to check the bolt gap?

a1fabweld
11-13-13, 22:17
I don't think so because the gap is determined by the pieces in the bolt head, but I would. All it takes is a feeler gage and a few minutes tops. Plus you'll have a baseline spec to compare to later if the gap changes.

Fjallhrafn
11-13-13, 22:26
Good enough. Thanks!

Next question: How does one attach and run a light with a "factory" HK91/PTR-91/G3?

a1fabweld
11-13-13, 22:33
I've seen guys drill and bolt or rivet small sections of picatinny rail to the bottom or sides of the wide hand guards. You can also get railed hand guards in the aftermarket. But you can't have my KAC RAS!

Fjallhrafn
11-13-13, 22:37
Well, the process of cloning an AG-3F2 will involve fitment of a B&T hand guard… but until that comes in, I'd like to have someway of attaching a light to the gun!

a1fabweld
11-13-13, 22:40
A $10 section of magpul rail outta do the trick.

eaboecke
11-13-13, 22:52
I used a wooden hand guard and a section of Magpul rail. It works.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

JoshNC
11-14-13, 06:38
The Spuhr fore-end looks great, weighs the same as a standard G3 handguard, though it is quite costly.


http://www.spuhr.com/tablet/hk-g3.html

http://www.milehighshooting.com/spuhr-g3a-hkg3-forend/

Fjallhrafn
11-17-13, 11:48
So I know that we're supposed to be boycotting Troy Industries due to their, uh, poor decision-making skills. But I saw that they're doing a BattleRail (with an attachable 12 o'clock rail that rides right over the receiver) and I was curious as to whether or not anybody had any experience with it. In case, you know, I came across one second-hand, of course.

paramarine
11-17-13, 13:21
This is great. I wish someone would do the same on the FN FAL.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Fjallhrafn
11-18-13, 10:31
One more question: Since the "GI" is apparently replaced by the "Classic" and since they offer the "Classic" as green and park, wood and park, or black on black… is it worth it to get the black finish (I assume it's some sort of sprayed-on finish) over the parkerized finish? Or should one stick to the park and if one really wants a finish over the steel to have it cerakoted?

Ron3
11-18-13, 13:31
One more question: Since the "GI" is apparently replaced by the "Classic" and since they offer the "Classic" as green and park, wood and park, or black on black… is it worth it to get the black finish (I assume it's some sort of sprayed-on finish) over the parkerized finish? Or should one stick to the park and if one really wants a finish over the steel to have it cerakoted?

I'm not sure what it's made of, but the black finish is very nice!

SteyrAUG
11-18-13, 17:07
This is great. I wish someone would do the same on the FN FAL.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


Actually your choices are pretty easy.

Buy a preban FN (cast receiver but high quality), buy a Springfield preban import (forged receiver, top quality contract rifle), buy a DSA (forged receiver, excellent quality rifle) or if you are extremely knowledgeable there are some excellent builds out there on DSA and Imbel receivers.

lowprone
11-30-13, 01:46
I have watched this thread with much interest for some time now and wish to add my 2 cents worth.
In July of 1978 SOF magazine had an article ( Jeff Cooper on the HK91 ) that was very interesting and
illuminating.
He was pictured firing the 91 w/bipod extended and collapsable stock fully closed, leaving in effect a
7.62mm Nato pistol, I have tried this many times over the years and it is very effective, as long as
repeated rapid fire is not utilized as the rifle as you might surmise jumps around a bit.
He also removed the standard 2-400 meter sight and replaced it w/ a modified Williams that had the peep
removed resulting in a ghost rear sight, appears to be replaceable w/standard rear at any time without issues.
He also had one of his smiths grind off the flange around the ejection port to alleviate the creasing of brass
for reloaders.
My Uncle was Ex Bundeswehr and recommended I take the hook end of sling and attach to cocking handle
to facilitate rapid reloads from prone, and it seems to help.
I have been loading Sierra's 130 grain MK and it is very accurate to 500 yards where I have 12"x 18" steel
erected.
Gotta love a 91!

Fjallhrafn
12-01-13, 00:55
I'm just filled with all sorts of random, silly questions on this weapon system….

So, I see that CTD has used Hensoldt Z24 scopes in stock for ~$400. Not that I would ever consider buying from those persons of ill-repute.

I also see that there are some sellers on eBay based out of Germany selling "unissued" specimens of the same optic for $800.

Are these things actually worth $800?

And while I'm at it: Any recommendations for who to send a PTR out to to have the original paddle magazine release installed?

Thanks (again and again and again)!

armakraut
12-01-13, 03:51
Are these things actually worth $800?

Nope. They're smoking crack. The things are barely worth $400. Lots of better things can be mounted for $400-800 on there. Heck, for $800 you could practically get an ACOG mounted on there.


And while I'm at it: Any recommendations for who to send a PTR out to to have the original paddle magazine release installed?

Thanks (again and again and again)!

AZEX or IGF.

eaboecke
12-01-13, 08:34
IGF is who you want to send it to. I sent mine to him and he had it back to me in about a month. Prompt helpful communication as well.

AZEX does good work, just the wait is much longer.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

SteyrAUG
12-01-13, 12:42
I'm just filled with all sorts of random, silly questions on this weapon system….

So, I see that CTD has used Hensoldt Z24 scopes in stock for ~$400. Not that I would ever consider buying from those persons of ill-repute.

I also see that there are some sellers on eBay based out of Germany selling "unissued" specimens of the same optic for $800.

Are these things actually worth $800?

And while I'm at it: Any recommendations for who to send a PTR out to to have the original paddle magazine release installed?

Thanks (again and again and again)!

Actually during the early 80s that same optic cost about $1,200 in 1983 dollars and the mount alone went for $400. The real world market value has been offset by surplus. Years ago you could get the same scopes in "like new" condition for $200 with case and all accessories. This is because they were flooding the market like G3 parts kits and magazines.

So using the factory G3 magazine as an example. Back in 1983 I paid $25 per magazine, these are the same magazines that 5 years ago were selling everywhere for $2-5 in "new condition" and are still pretty cheap.

So what is the G3 scope worth? That depends. It still costs far less now than what it sold for back in the 80s and it costs twice as much as it did 5 years ago. What will it be worth when the surplus supply is gone? Well we did that with the surplus HK P7s that were once everywhere for $400 and now are typically found in the $800-900 range.

The thing to keep in mind is these are quality optics on a heavy duty mounting system. And at $400 they are probably much cheaper than any comparable optics/mount system of similar quality. So with that information in mind, you'll have to decide for yourself what they are worth.

Fjallhrafn
12-01-13, 13:40
Nope. They're smoking crack. The things are barely worth $400. Lots of better things can be mounted for $400-800 on there. Heck, for $800 you could practically get an ACOG mounted on there.

Well… I would have to get a Picatinny rail. Which would cost $125 for the MFI (which is apparently pants) or the B&T (which apparently DSA isn't importing any more) or $200 for a used ARMS mount (which is, well, ARMS, but being used, they aren't getting any money for it), plus the cost of an LT, ADM, or BoBro mount ($70-300)….

I'm not necessarily disagreeing. But the Z24 surely cannot be much worse than the contemporary ACOG (save for the lack of tritium) - the TA01 - can it?

pinzgauer
12-01-13, 14:24
The things are barely worth $400. Lots of better things can be mounted for $400-800 on there.

If you figure the real HK claw mount is worth $75'ish, not sure you could do too much better on a scope for $325.

I paid $279 for the unissued last model hensoldt kit, and it was well worth $400 or more that it sold for toward the end. I would probably pass at 600 or more though.

Turns out its a STANAG mount, so ran it on an AR for a bit when I cashed out of my 91 at the peak of the craziness. Actually worked better on the AR from an eye relief aspect. Just used a no name pictany "riser" from a junk box that also happened to have the stanag mount as well.

If I still had the 91 I'd want one on hand for sure, though everyone liked shooting it best with irons because they worked so well. Especially the kids, they loved hitting at 200-300 yds with it. Which makes me laugh when I hear people whine about G3/91 recoil. Makes me wonder if the clones or worn out battle rifles recoil more due to improper roller locker setup?

Fjallhrafn
12-01-13, 15:46
If you figure the real HK claw mount is worth $75'ish, not sure you could do too much better on a scope for $325.

I paid $279 for the unissued last model hensoldt kit, and it was well worth $400 or more that it sold for toward the end. I would probably pass at 600 or more though.

Turns out its a STANAG mount, so ran it on an AR for a bit when I cashed out of my 91 at the peak of the craziness. Actually worked better on the AR from an eye relief aspect. Just used a no name pictany "riser" from a junk box that also happened to have the stanag mount as well.

If I still had the 91 I'd want one on hand for sure, though everyone liked shooting it best with irons because they worked so well. Especially the kids, they loved hitting at 200-300 yds with it. Which makes me laugh when I hear people whine about G3/91 recoil. Makes me wonder if the clones or worn out battle rifles recoil more due to improper roller locker setup?

I'd like to know where you can find an HK claw mount for $75 that wasn't made by UTG.

HKParts is selling used models made by H&K for $230. The ones from UTG are $72.

The H&K claw mount with 30mm rings are $500….

pinzgauer
12-01-13, 16:36
I'd like to know where you can find an HK claw mount for $75 that wasn't made by UTG.

HKParts is selling used models made by H&K for $230. The ones from UTG are $72.

So my point was that even at $400, the Z24 scope *and* claw mount was a decent deal, even if you assume the mount is *only* worth $75.

Mine was super bright and crisp, kind of hard to argue with zeiss glass that cheap

Kid's G3 airsoft came with a UTG pictany claw for $10 more. Tried it on the 91 as well, I was surprised at how well it fit. Chinese cloners are pretty amazing at times. Maybe I need to flog it on an auction site if the are selling for that.

lowprone
12-01-13, 21:32
I will sell you one for a $100 dollar bill

HKGuns
12-01-13, 22:17
Well, I broke the "code" and ordered one of the scope's from CTD when they first hit their website. Having just paid $700 for my Z24 and I missed out on the deals 5 years ago, common sense prevailed as no-one else appears to have them in stock or coming soon. It is in decent shape and the glass is very clear and bright.

Were I in your shoes, (and I was) I would hold your nose and buy one from CTD with the claw mount for $400. It is the best deal on an optic you'll find for an HK9x series rifle.

I didn't feel I was ripped off on my like new Z24 for $700. I certainly don't feel ripped off paying $400 for a model one that is on par, clarity wise, with the Z24 and includes the HK claw mount.

SteyrAUG
12-01-13, 23:37
I will sell you one for a $100 dollar bill


Assuming it isn't busted up or anything like that, I'll take that deal.

PM inbound.

lowprone
12-02-13, 10:17
Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn
I'd like to know where you can find an HK claw mount for $75 that wasn't made by UTG.

I was referring to the claw mount @ $100, probably should have clarified on that.

Fjallhrafn
12-02-13, 17:56
Originally Posted by Fjallhrafn
I'd like to know where you can find an HK claw mount for $75 that wasn't made by UTG.

I was referring to the claw mount @ $100, probably should have clarified on that.

I'm good. Thanks for the offer. If Steyr wants it, you should sell it to him. He has more H&Ks that could use one than I do, I'm sure.

;)

SteyrAUG
12-02-13, 20:42
I'm good. Thanks for the offer. If Steyr wants it, you should sell it to him. He has more H&Ks that could use one than I do, I'm sure.

;)

I thought it was mount and scope, I have more mounts than I need so it's still up for grabs if anyone wants it.

lowprone
12-02-13, 22:02
At this point I will just withdraw the for sale offer, maybe put it on Sturm at some point

Fjallhrafn
12-03-13, 15:37
So the 'Norwegian contract' bolt carrier showed up. It's not from an AG-3 but from one of the German G3s built with parts under contract to Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk. Roll marked 6/67. So no forward assist serrations. Which is unfortunate. But what kind of confuses me is that somehow the rifle seems to have become more difficult to cock with the Kongsberg carrier than with the PTR carrier. Obvious solution is to go back to the PTR carrier. Is there anything else that could be done?

(I'd like to keep the Kongsberg in the rifle for sentimental reasons. But if it's too difficult to run....)

SPQR476
12-03-13, 15:45
So the 'Norwegian contract' bolt carrier showed up. It's not from an AG-3 but from one of the German G3s built with parts under contract to Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk. Roll marked 6/67. So no forward assist serrations. Which is unfortunate. But what kind of confuses me is that somehow the rifle seems to have become more difficult to cock with the Kongsberg carrier than with the PTR carrier. Obvious solution is to go back to the PTR carrier. Is there anything else that could be done?

(I'd like to keep the Kongsberg in the rifle for sentimental reasons. But if it's too difficult to run....)

Is there a difference in the length of the carriers?

What is the bolt gap with each setup?

Arctic1
12-03-13, 16:07
Was the gun shot at all with the PTR carrier previously?

Is the bolt carrier new/unused?

In my experience, all new guns were very hard to cock to begin with, very tight tolerances, but gradually loosened up with use due to "breaking in". I assume you have lubed it properly?

Fjallhrafn
12-03-13, 17:16
Is there a difference in the length of the carriers?

What is the bolt gap with each setup?

I'll check when I get home, but I believe it opened up with the Norwegian carrier.


Was the gun shot at all with the PTR carrier previously?

Is the bolt carrier new/unused?

In my experience, all new guns were very hard to cock to begin with, very tight tolerances, but gradually loosened up with use due to "breaking in". I assume you have lubed it properly?

The rifle hasn't been shot by me, so I assume that the PTR carrier is unused/new. The Kongsberg is probably used - it certainly doesn't look new - but neither does it have any signs of any but the lightest wear.

And if by "lubed properly" you mean a bunch of EWL all over the carrier and the rollers, then yes. ;)

Greg Bell
12-03-13, 17:17
God, y'all don't want to know the obnoxious price I had to pay for 30mm integral steel claw mount. My butt still hurts.

SteyrAUG
12-03-13, 17:34
So the 'Norwegian contract' bolt carrier showed up. It's not from an AG-3 but from one of the German G3s built with parts under contract to Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk. Roll marked 6/67. So no forward assist serrations. Which is unfortunate. But what kind of confuses me is that somehow the rifle seems to have become more difficult to cock with the Kongsberg carrier than with the PTR carrier. Obvious solution is to go back to the PTR carrier. Is there anything else that could be done?

(I'd like to keep the Kongsberg in the rifle for sentimental reasons. But if it's too difficult to run....)

Since your rifle is a PTR, I'd put the PTR carrier back in it.

Despite having purchased tooling from FMP, the PTR still isn't quite a contract rifle and while contract rifles are generally built to the same standard that doesn't mean they are interchangeable in every case. Pop over to the HK Clones section of HKPro and there are plenty of "Why won't my german part work in my US clone?" topics.

I understand your fondness and desire to use the Kongsberg part but simple logic dictates if the rifle works correctly with the PTR carrier but doesn't work as well with the Kongsberg carrier then the Kongsberg carrier is the problem.

If you have a reliable PTR rifle to begin with, you should stop there and be thankful for that.

SPQR476
12-03-13, 17:46
A difference in bolt gap may slightly change perceived cocking force, especially if out of spec. Be careful that the surplus carrier isn't bottoming out on the cocking tube support and giving you a false gap reading.

If the surplus carrier doesn't have a little wiggle room with the cocking tube support, that can increase cocking effort. Being much too short and leaving too much room can also have the same result.

Fjallhrafn
12-03-13, 19:57
Bolt gap with Kongsberg: .457mm (.018")
Bolt gap with PTR: .483mm (.019")

The difference in length between the two bolt carriers is probably under half a millimeter (favoring the PTR in length). I haven't mic'd them, though. (About to have dinner, will do it after.)

The PTR, now that I have it back in the rifle, is much easier to cock the rifle with. I also noticed that the locking piece was made by H&K in November of '86. So happy belated birthday to the locking piece. (Also saw that the carrier is actually DOB 3/67, not 6/67.)

Maybe when I send the rifle off to have the paddle installed, I'll see if I can convince the smith to mill the forward assist serrations into the PTR bolt carrier.

bubba04
12-03-13, 20:49
God, y'all don't want to know the obnoxious price I had to pay for 30mm integral steel claw mount. My butt still hurts.

it is crazy how expensive they are. I am thinking about getting an extra claw mount and see if i can get a stang to picatiny rail so that i can put rings on it....

SteyrAUG
12-03-13, 23:01
Maybe when I send the rifle off to have the paddle installed, I'll see if I can convince the smith to mill the forward assist serrations into the PTR bolt carrier.

Most bolt carriers have a small hole in the side. You can stick the nose of a round in there and edge it forward as a forward assist.

Fjallhrafn
12-03-13, 23:06
Most bolt carriers have a small hole in the side. You can stick the nose of a round in there and edge it forward as a forward assist.

Oh, I know. My PTR's no different.

But I kinda want it to be an AG-3 clone, after a fashion.

Fjallhrafn
12-08-13, 03:01
Another question! (I have made it known to certain persons that I would like to get Full Circle for Christmas. But in the mean time….)

When and why did H&K come out with the "wide" hand guard? It is of interest to me that they introduced it and almost every HK91 you see has the wide hand guard but it appears that neither the Germans nor the Norwegians nor the Swedes nor the Danes nor any other European country (except Greece) seem to use them (nor does it appear that most African countries use them).

a1fabweld
12-08-13, 08:50
The wide handguard was imtruduced once everyone realized the skinny one was cheesy. Reports from all over the world came back to HK saying that the 91 was the ultimate 30 cal battle rifle but needed a beefy handguard. The skinny one took away from its superior badassness.

G19A3
12-08-13, 09:00
Wasn't the wide "tropical" handguard developed for civilian sales to keep their hands from being burned on the exposed metal receiver aft of the slimline handguard?

ptmccain
12-08-13, 09:04
They are awesome looking.

Arctic1
12-08-13, 10:16
Wasn't the wide "tropical" handguard developed for civilian sales to keep their hands from being burned on the exposed metal receiver aft of the slimline handguard?

I've burned myself on the barrel, but never on the cocking tube. I cannot really recall it becoming hot at all.

TiroFijo
12-08-13, 10:46
Most/all the export military models had the wide handguards from at least the mid '70s.

Perhaps the countries that had adopted the G3s earlier and had the slim handguard format kept them for uniformity, just like the M9 pistol is "frozen" in its Us .mil specs compared to the M92 FS.

SteyrAUG
12-08-13, 11:44
Another question! (I have made it known to certain persons that I would like to get Full Circle for Christmas. But in the mean time….)

When and why did H&K come out with the "wide" hand guard? It is of interest to me that they introduced it and almost every HK91 you see has the wide hand guard but it appears that neither the Germans nor the Norwegians nor the Swedes nor the Danes nor any other European country (except Greece) seem to use them (nor does it appear that most African countries use them).

Standard (slimline) forearms were the norm until the mid 70s, even found on US import HK41s. I "think" they came up with the "tropical" for the 9x series exclusively for the semi autos. Oldest wide forearm setup I've seen is the Nambian FAL style stock set.