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Slater
09-30-07, 12:36
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA953115

Above is a report from 1968 detailing the M16 rifle's procurement, cost, and performance history up to that point. Toward the end of the text is a mention of two proposed alternate manufacturers, Harrington and Richardson and General Motors, and their forecasted prices.

I can't imagine GM making that much money off of a small arms contract when compared to their automotive operations. Indeed, did GM even make any small arms after WW2?

As a point of interest (from the report):

" Colt's Inc. acquired the rights from Fairchild on or about 7 January 1959, at a cost of $75,000 plus 4.5% royalty on all weapons produced. Colt's contract with Mr. MacDonald (who recommended the acquisition) provided a payment of $250,000 plus a 1 per cent royalty on every rifle produced. (The fee to Mac Donald is referred to as a finder's fee and takes into account funds which he expended on exhibits and firing demonstrations throughout the world)."

Whytep38
09-30-07, 12:45
If you're asking whether GM produced M16s, the answer is, "Yes," according to The Complete AR-15/M16 Sourcebook by Duncan Long. The short story is that Colt went from having almost no sales to suddenly having more sales than they could handle, so the government had GM and H&R step in for a while.

That's about as much as I understand on the situation. I'm sure others on this forum know much more about it.

bigbore
09-30-07, 15:00
They were made at GMs Hydramatic (transmission) plant in Toledo, OH.

LukeMacGillie
09-30-07, 16:13
There are alot of HM lowers being made into Mk18's, SPR's and even M4's for other agencies. Seems Crane has a huge Stockpile of lowers from that particular production line.

ThirdWatcher
09-30-07, 19:28
I was issued a Hydramatic M-16 in BCT in 1973. It was a good rifle.

Low Drag
09-30-07, 22:39
I had one, an A1 in 1980 while in boot camp.

Ross
10-01-07, 10:29
I had several Hydramatics over the years in the Army. They were good rifles.

The Army back then always wanted multiple sources for weapons systems so that a strike, natural disaster, enemy attack, whatever couldn't put the weapons system out of production by destryoing a single source.

There's probably something to that, since a couple key weapons systems, like the M1117 ASV for example, were put out of production by Katrina and it took nearly a year to rebuild the plant and get them back into production.

Hawkeye
10-01-07, 11:34
I had a GM A1 in basic in 91.

Ekie
10-02-07, 10:30
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA953115

Above is a report from 1968 detailing the M16 rifle's procurement, cost, and performance history up to that point.

Excellent resource document, I now reference it more then any other source, including TBR.


http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA953115

I can't imagine GM making that much money off of a small arms contract when compared to their automotive operations. Indeed, did GM even make any small arms after WW2?



The Army ended up giving GM contracts totaling 469,217 M16A1 rifles. Am confident GM made out fine.


http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA953115

" Colt's Inc. acquired the rights from Fairchild on or about 7 January 1959, at a cost of $75,000 plus 4.5% royalty on all weapons produced. Colt's contract with Mr. MacDonald (who recommended the acquisition) provided a payment of $250,000 plus a 1 per cent royalty on every rifle produced. (The fee to Mac Donald is referred to as a finder's fee and takes into account funds which he expended on exhibits and firing demonstrations throughout the world)."

Yes, Bobby did good on that one.

dewatters
10-03-07, 02:28
Excellent resource document, I now reference it more then any other source, including TBR.


Yes, I found it a couple of months ago, and have yet to incorporate the info into the 5.56 Timeline. I only wish that the other 11 sections of the report were available for download as well.

Ekie
10-03-07, 09:48
I only wish that the other 11 sections of the report were available for download as well.

Especially this one:

Title: Report of the M16 Rifle Review Panel. Volume 1. History of the M16 Weapon System.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/stinet/jsp/docread.jsp?K2DocKey=http%3A%2F%2Fstinet.dtic.mil%2Fstinet%2FXSLTServlet%3Fad%3DADA953110%40trA-search&Format=1F&Custom=&querytext=%28389658+%3Cin%3E+sc%29&AD=ADA953110&TI=Report+of+the+M16+Rifle+Review+Panel.+Volume+1.+History+of+the+M16+Weapon+System.&RD=June+01%2C+1968&DC=%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+%26nbsp%3B+01+-+APPROVED+FOR+PUBLIC+RELEASE&XPC=&PAG=215+Pages%28s%29&MC=&PE=

1fastdog
10-03-07, 11:45
http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA953115

Above is a report from 1968 detailing the M16 rifle's procurement, cost, and performance history up to that point. Toward the end of the text is a mention of two proposed alternate manufacturers, Harrington and Richardson and General Motors, and their forecasted prices.

I can't imagine GM making that much money off of a small arms contract when compared to their automotive operations. Indeed, did GM even make any small arms after WW2?

As a point of interest (from the report):

" Colt's Inc. acquired the rights from Fairchild on or about 7 January 1959, at a cost of $75,000 plus 4.5% royalty on all weapons produced. Colt's contract with Mr. MacDonald (who recommended the acquisition) provided a payment of $250,000 plus a 1 per cent royalty on every rifle produced. (The fee to Mac Donald is referred to as a finder's fee and takes into account funds which he expended on exhibits and firing demonstrations throughout the world)."


As there's some interest in GM and the rifle of passion here, I post a quote from 1970 in Time magazine regarding issues facing the automaker:


"In front of General Motors' fortress-like headquarters building in Detroit last week, antiwar picketers waved banners reading G.M. GETS RICH, G.I.s DIE. Why did they pick on G.M.? Last year it received only 3% of its $24.45 billion revenues from defense contracts, largely for M16 rifles. But, as the prime symbol of corporate success in modern America, G.M. is a conspicuous target. This year it is under rising pressure not only from citizens objecting to the Viet Nam War and pollution of the environment, but also from the Government and competing automakers."


Pretty much an anecdotal blurb, but maybe it will help.

CobraCutterPB
10-03-07, 23:01
I had a H&R A1 overstamped and converted into a a2 at Basic in 2003.

Limey-
12-11-08, 12:06
A co-workers issue M16 (LE) is a GM. Mines just a regular Colt. I will snap a pic.

Iraqgunz
12-11-08, 12:21
I had a GM Hydramatic Div. M16A1 in basic training back in 1986. I have seen some here in country as well.

ErikL
12-11-08, 12:39
I have seen both M16's and M2 .50cals both made by GM. The 50's were date stamped in the late 60's, 68 and 69 if i remember correctly. Probably not much GM hasn't made over the years.

T3550N
12-11-08, 13:47
Hrmmm, gun sales up 50% since the election...
American car sales in the dumpster...

Isn't perspective wonderful.

jtskier11
12-11-08, 14:51
I never even knew GM dabbled in bullet propulsiuon devices. Of course that tells ya how much I know. Im still laughing about seeing "GM" stamped on an old fridge in my grandpas barn.... :D

cpekz
12-11-08, 15:34
I saw a few GM M16 lowers when I was in basic training. I had never known before that either.

JeffST
03-21-10, 08:07
so GM just step in to help colt with overwhelming request on M16A1?
GM doesn't produce M16A2, right?
I saw a lower markin in "AR-15"
there is a lower markin GM and M16A2

Robb Jensen
03-21-10, 11:05
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/gmlower.jpg

Crappy pic (cell phone camera).

I worked on some M!6s for a local LE agency. They got several unfired ones from the US Gov't for duty rifles and had me make some of them semi auto, they had me install collapsible stocks, flat top uppers, optics, lights, & handguards.

William B.
03-21-10, 13:34
I have seen both M16's and M2 .50cals both made by GM. The 50's were date stamped in the late 60's, 68 and 69 if i remember correctly. Probably not much GM hasn't made over the years.

Yeah, a little off topic, but there are several M2 .50's in the TBS Armory that are marked "General Motors Spark Plug Division."

sinister
03-21-10, 14:02
My issued rifle for Infantry One Station Unit Training in May-August 1979 was a GM Hydromatic M16A1.

Colt's couldn't meet Vietnam military production numbers so the government extended contracts to both Harrington and Richardson and GM Hydromatic.

It astounds me that people don't believe more producers can't meet GI MILSPEC. It's a machine. Current production lies with Colt's, FNMI, and Sabre Defense. How many commercial lowers are produced today on CNC equipment?

US WWII production was amazing (using 1920s and 30s technology). The US GI is still using weapons made by Whirlpool, GE, and Maytag, as well as other non-traditional manufacturers. Look at the data plates on our mortars and .50 cals -- you'll be surprised.

kmrtnsn
03-21-10, 15:19
My issued M-16A1 when I reported to 1st Marine Amphibious Brigade in 1981 was made by the Hydromatic Division of GM.

Iraqgunz
03-21-10, 15:40
I believe it was marked Hydromatic a division of General Motors. Here is an H&R marked M16A2 that I worked on in Iraq.

4541


so GM just step in to help colt with overwhelming request on M16A1?
GM doesn't produce M16A2, right?
I saw a lower markin in "AR-15"
there is a lower markin GM and M16A2

Stickman
03-21-10, 16:43
I believe it was marked Hydromatic a division of General Motors. Here is an H&R marked M16A2 that I worked on in Iraq.

4541


Not seeing an attachments or images. Could be a board glitch.

5pins
03-21-10, 16:51
Not seeing an attachments or images. Could be a board glitch.

I see it.

5pins
03-21-10, 17:07
Didnít GM also make the M-60?

urbana1
03-21-10, 18:00
We were issued GM marked M16 A1 at Fort Ord basic in 1971. They were moderately worn but mine ran great. No problems with it. I qualified expert.

hickuleas
03-21-10, 18:14
GM did more goverment contracting than widely known. The goverment built the division i worked at. In a large scale machine shop many small parts can go through production without people understanding what they are.

Luke_Y
03-21-10, 23:30
Was assigned a Hydramatic M2 at one time.

motorolahamm
03-22-10, 08:29
i knew H&R made them but not General motors learn somthing new everyday
does any body know how many MPG they get or what size tired they use :D,

my dad said his third M16 issued to him in 68-69 had MATTEL toy co. on it ? anyone have pics of this

Robb Jensen
03-22-10, 08:38
i knew H&R made them but not General motors learn somthing new everyday
does any body know how many MPG they get or what size tired they use :D,

my dad said his third M16 issued to him in 68-69 had MATTEL toy co. on it ? anyone have pics of this

http://www.snopes.com/military/m16.asp

motorolahamm
03-22-10, 09:04
http://www.snopes.com/military/m16.asp

guess that answers that, Thanks

tirod
03-22-10, 09:12
IOBC 4-83, GM Hydramatic M16A1. Ran just fine, no stoppages other than induced by operator error.

The Mattel rumor was based on a lot of troops typically bitching about something. If it's an uninformed lie, so be it. It gave them a chance to vent.

That sort of BS is a good indicator of how to handle any further nonsense they spout. It's usually based on equally uninformed concepts of technology. It's interesting to explain how to use a voltmeter to diagnose their fuel injected car. They glaze over in about ten seconds and start asking about four barrel conversions.

Totally illegal, I reply. They are all hat and no horse.

.45fmjoe
03-23-10, 13:34
Yes, I found it a couple of months ago, and have yet to incorporate the info into the 5.56 Timeline. I only wish that the other 11 sections of the report were available for download as well.

How do we go about filing a request for copy? Shouldn't that be doable under the Freedom of Information Act? Seriously, I'll sign my name on a request.

JonnyVain
03-23-10, 13:41
They were made at GMs Hydramatic (transmission) plant in Toledo, OH.

Nice. Should have kept that deal.

crusader377
03-23-10, 15:18
I used a GM Hydramatic M16A1 when I was a ROTC cadet at Ft. Lewis in 1998. Thinking back, it is amazing that they have kept those for so long.

tirod
03-24-10, 21:51
Note the pic of the Iraq H&R - it's an arsenal refit with BURST stamped over the auto.
If the lower is good to go, just refit and keep using it.

There are lots of M16's out there, over 8 million and more, many in the hands of units who only get to shoot for qualification once a year. Keep one of those in a unit over a ten year period, the most abuse comes from cleaning it, not shooting it. As those get rotated for new weapons, lots of really nice parts get "recycled" regardless of origin.

Kinda like the Union Switch and Railway 1911 locked in the rack at my first unit circa 1984. Or the M2's with dates back to the '40's. It's completely logical there's "old" guns out there.

dewatters
03-25-10, 09:12
How do we go about filing a request for copy? Shouldn't that be doable under the Freedom of Information Act? Seriously, I'll sign my name on a request.

If you are in the military, represent a business with military contracts, or a student, you can order them through DTIC. Everyone else should be able to order them through NTIS.

At last check, five of the twelve volumes of the "Report of the M16 Rifle Review Panel" are available for free download through DTIC.

Volume 1 - History of the M16 Weapon System
Volume 6 - Appendix 5 - Procurement Production and Distribution History of the AR15-M16-M16A1 Weapon System
Volume 7, Appendix 6 - Review and Analysis of M16 System Reliability
Volume 8, Appendix 7 - M16 Surveys in the Republic of Vietnam
Volume 11, Appendix 10 - The Army Small Arms Program

The following are not currently available for download:

Volume 2, Appendix 1 - Small Arms Test Policies and Procedures
Volume 3, Appendix 2 - Audit Trail and Analysis of M16A1 Weapon and Ammunition System Tests
Volume 4, Appendix 3 - Review and Analysis of M16 Rifle Training
Volume 5, Appendix 4 - Ammunition Development Program
Volume 9, Appendix 8 - Review and Analysis of the Army Organizational Structure and Management Practices
Volume 10, Appendix 9 - Audit Trail of Chief of Staff, Army Actions and Decisions Concerning the M16
Volume 12, Appendix 11 - M16 Product Improvement Modifications

None of these twelve volumes appear to have been available at the time that "The Great Rifle Controversy", "The M16 Controversies", and "The Black Rifle" were written.

Limey-
04-16-10, 00:38
Here is my issued (LE) workgun with a closeup. Its a GM M16A1. We have a bunch of these. The top one is a Colt M16A1 also issued.:D

http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=4810&d=1271393129

.45fmjoe
04-16-10, 11:37
If you are in the military, represent a business with military contracts, or a student, you can order them through DTIC. Everyone else should be able to order them through NTIS.

At last check, five of the twelve volumes of the "Report of the M16 Rifle Review Panel" are available for free download through DTIC.

Volume 1 - History of the M16 Weapon System
Volume 6 - Appendix 5 - Procurement Production and Distribution History of the AR15-M16-M16A1 Weapon System
Volume 7, Appendix 6 - Review and Analysis of M16 System Reliability
Volume 8, Appendix 7 - M16 Surveys in the Republic of Vietnam
Volume 11, Appendix 10 - The Army Small Arms Program

The following are not currently available for download:

Volume 2, Appendix 1 - Small Arms Test Policies and Procedures
Volume 3, Appendix 2 - Audit Trail and Analysis of M16A1 Weapon and Ammunition System Tests
Volume 4, Appendix 3 - Review and Analysis of M16 Rifle Training
Volume 5, Appendix 4 - Ammunition Development Program
Volume 9, Appendix 8 - Review and Analysis of the Army Organizational Structure and Management Practices
Volume 10, Appendix 9 - Audit Trail of Chief of Staff, Army Actions and Decisions Concerning the M16
Volume 12, Appendix 11 - M16 Product Improvement Modifications

None of these twelve volumes appear to have been available at the time that "The Great Rifle Controversy", "The M16 Controversies", and "The Black Rifle" were written.

Thanks for this information. :D