AAR Kyle DeFoor 2 day Advanced Handgun April 30 to May 1 Moyock, NC [Archive]

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glock_forty5

05-02-11, 19:02

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DefoorPerformaceShooting.jpg

Kyle Defoor
www.kyledefoor.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

Kyle DeFoor 2 day Advanced Handgun April 30 to May 1 AAR, Moyock, NC

One of the best classes I have attended. Great instructor, great facility, great classmates, and awesome weather, how Paul arranged for all of that is beyond me. This may ramble a bit, now where to start…

Instructor – Kyle DeFoor’s resume speaks for itself so I will not revisit the established. Kyle has a real passion for teaching and it shows in his instruction and interaction with each student. He motivates his class, pushes them to the edge, and provides feedback as areas for improvement are identified on a one on one basis. A good example of this was with the State Trooper in the class. Kyle made sure to emphasize to him skills that could serve him well in his profession and my one day save his life. Kyle ate lunch with the class, answered any question you served up to him, as well as hang out with the class at meal time telling stories about past classes, techniques, and life n general. This approach put the class at ease and made it easy for all to approach Kyle with any questions one may have (I had a lot and all were answered).

Range – The Black Water errrr, US Training facility is world class and I do not know how else to put it. Both Kyle and Paul to a financial hit by hosting the class here and it was appreciated by all (Kyle and Paul are a class act). The moving steel and the Rogers Range were highlights for me as the world is not full of stationary cardboard bad guys.

Students – My classmates had a varying background ranging from State Trooper to IT and everywhere in between. Personal note: Hats off to the State Trooper for spending his own time and money to better himself and for doing a great job with a ridiculous DAO trigger. Several students were experienced with concealed carry and were very proficient with their varying carry rigs. It was good to see 1st a varied mixed of equipment and methods of carry, it really showed how each had advantages and disadvantages. It was a good group of guys and gal and it was my honor to train with them.

Instruction – Kyle runs everyone through a test right off the bat, no warm up, no studying, just show him what you got. It was from there he could assess the students skills and determine their needs. From there he started on his view of the basics. This was where I learned the most. Kyle has a unique perspective and is able to break down exactly what is needed for each of the basics such as, trigger control, sight picture, grip, and stance (trigger control and sight picture being the must haves). Throughout the instruction Kyle put us through 3 of his tests to gauge areas in need of improvement and to also demonstrate low round count drills that drive home skills needed to prevail with a sidearm. These drills will be incorporated in to my training routine for sure. My other huge take away from this class was about knives, well more of an awakening to what I do not know about them and their correct deployment. I will not say anymore on the subject other than I have discovered a huge hole in my skill-set. We did strong hand and other strong hand drills until we had it right. Kyle tuned us up real good on Saturday and Sunday with his drills and instruction and we finished up Sunday afternoon on the Rogers range to employ our sharpened skills on one of the coolest ranges I have ever shot on. The Rogers range had 7 (I think) pieces of automated steel that pop up from behind a variety of cover and or no shoots. This was a real high light of the course for me and an ammo burner for sure. Kyle warned the class that their guns would get hot and true to form, he was right. The targets would keep coming at a pace varying from slow and deliberate so as to allow time for the shooter to draw from the holster to the impossibly fast where no one could engage all targets before they disappeared. It was so intense that I was alarmed at how fast the slide was locking back after I just reloaded (lesson learned here, I will lose count of my shots in a stress fire situation). My M&P 9L got so hot I had to sit it down to cool off as I was burning the thumb on my support hand! Again, both Kyle and Paul took a financial hit for us to use this range, thanks again. At this time I had shot 1350 rounds and was ready to call it a weekend.

My big take a ways:

• Trigger control (a basic I know, but without a foundation I have nothing to build on)
• Sight picture (another basic but again this must be mastered)
• Recoil management
• I know nothing about knives (well more now)

I have learned my lessons now I must master them.

Thanks to Kyle for a great class, I am a better shooter now and my personal goals for this course were either met or exceeded. Also, your directions to get back to Maryland from the range were perfect, we hit zero traffic (we skipped the restaurant as I had to be to work early Monday morning, I will make sure we go there the next time we are in that area). Thanks to Paul and Sarah for handling all the logistics for the course. I see future classes with Kyle in my future.

Notes on my equipment:

I used an M&P 9L with Ameriglo proglo sights. The gun performed without a hitch and it consumed 1350 rounds without issue and no cleaning. The sights were easy to see and helped me reacquire my sight picture after each shot (the night sights were awesome too). My intention was to shoot the class from a concealed holster. I ordered an in the waist band holster from Blade Tech and it came 3 days before the class. So, I did the wrong thing and tried to use a new piece of equipment in a class. My biggest issue was my inability to get a good master grip before I cleared the holster due to the size of the sweat guard (or whatever its called). Kyle showed me how he modded his holster to address that very issue. I did not want to hack up an expensive new holster at the range so I figured I would just deal with it and fix it later. Well that was fine until I smashed my already injured thumb nail in to the sweat guard. I bit my lip and switched my holster out to a belt rig. I missed out on mastering my drawl from concealment, a personal disappointment, but was able to continue and was glad I had a contingency plan. Magazine holders were Blade Tech and they worked like a champ.

Feedback for Paul (no real criticisms, just a couple of suggestions):

1. The ranges where we were to meet changed several times and that caused some confusion. Suggestion – send out a text blast to notify all of any last minute changes.
2. Send out a notification of the automatic tuition balance charge. I called Sarah to square the books before the class and did not need to.

Thanks again for a great class,

JT

Jim D

05-02-11, 20:23

Gents, my AAR for the class:

Details:
Cost: $400 tuition
Dates: April 30th-May1st
Ammo: 800 rounds called for (~1100 expended by many including extra time on the Rogers Range)

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Kyle gave us a quick safety brief, and got right into his standards. Kyle purposefully took the previous 10 days off of shooting, so he could shoot his standards cold with us right then and there. Kyle let us know that he set his standards really high, as we can't ever expect to be performing at 100% on the day of, so we if train to excel beyond what is necessary, even if we're only running at 70%, we'll still be some bad-MF'ers at only 70%. Kyle then let us know that he often struggles to pass them himself. I think all of our eyes got a little bigger when we heard that.

Right off the bat, no dry fire, no warm up...20 yard sprint, to scored shots on a bullseye target at 25 yards...on the clock. Out of 60 possible points, if you didn't get 50, you fail. Next we did some closer stuff up at 6 yards. Out of the holster, to a reduced (1/2 size) A-zone in 2.0 or you fail. Into the credit card reduced scoring ring headshot box in 3.5 seconds, or you fail. All scores were recorded, and Kyle knew every shooter by name and how they were performing and improving.

Kyle took down scores, noted each shooters times, scores on the drills, general notes, etc...then at the end, the winner got to choose their prize...either some Smith sunglasses, or Defoor Glock sights. The sights were the favorite prize, by far.

After the base line tests were done, Kyle started to really dig deep into the mechanics of shooting as he teaches them...which is a little bit different than others may be familiar with. Kyle really explained in detail how his grip works, where pressure is applied, what elements of his grip, stance, etc are doing to his performance. Really nitty gritty details that would help us as we moved on through the day and started picking up the pace.

After lunch we worked on some rhythm drills, working 1 second, .5 second, and .25 second splits and how to gauge our timing on them.

Throughout the day, Kyle started to paint a picture of his mindset, and how he thinks about shooting. Every target for the rest of the class was getting shot in the head at the end of every string. "If this thing is coming out...someone is getting it, today." Kyle hammered home the importance of a thorough scan..."I'm not looking for dangers to me...I'm hunting right now. Who else needs some?" Kyle's mindset was becoming clearer.

We didn't refer to our non-dominant hands as "weak"...anyone who's seen Kyle shoot would have to be high to consider either hand of his "weak". Instead, right handed folks called their left hand their "other strong hand". Kyle is a big believer in positive thinking, and projection. Thinking about yourself in a positive light, and presenting that confidence in everything that you do...not just being aware of your environment, but dominating it.

We started to shoot some multiple target arrays, working body shots on some, then head shots on others. Going right to left and left to right, going head/body/head, and body/head/body. Accuracy standards were still highly present, with head shots needing to land in the "credit card" if you wanted it to count. Any body shot that landed in the "D-Zone" was considered a complete miss. Upper A zone hits were just about all we were looking for.

After that, we got into working Strong Hand Only and Other Strong Hand Only draws, reloads, manipulations, and shooting.

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Kyle went over some of the difference in OSH draws, some of the safety concerns, ways to use the ground to your advantage, and most importantly...the REAL WORLD reasons for why you might need this valuable skill. We did SHO and OSH drills where we simulated holding a body out in front of you at a 45, having your arm occupied out to your side, and pinning down someone on the ground while drawing and shooting.

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After dinner, we came back and got into the low light portion of the class. While we waited for the sun to set fully, Kyle reviewed key features he looks for in a flashlight. Luckily we had Kevin B. of Streamlight there with us to help explain how flashlights are rated, how they work, and he even brought out a variety of products for us to compare and try out.

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Kyle spent a good bit of time talking about the various flashlight positions people have been using for years, and the weaknesses he's seen with them. He even had a great tip for helping with alignment issues people typically experience in Harries. Then, half in jest, mentioning how seemingly everyone in the industry who teaches low-light has a technique named after them...Kyle showed us the "Defoor Technique". This technique seemed pretty easy to pickup, worked will for backlighting your pistol sights, worked well on the mover, and was just simple and to the point.

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We put a fair number of rounds downrange at night, more than I've done in any other class with night fire in them. Kyle got the movers going at night, and we were really able to each get comfortable with our technique of choice and the gear we had.

Just like he had earlier in the class, Kyle got right in there with us during a lull while folks were loading magazines and put some lead on target with us too. If anyone heard the hits on the steel, they would have thought it was daylight and someone was using both hands on the gun...not that it was just Kyle shooting with a flashlight in 1 hand...dude can SHOOT!

TD2:

"Hold my beer and watch this".

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Kyle jumped right into one of his toughest standards, sprinting 50 yards, making A-Zone hits at 50 yards, then closing in and making more A-Zone and Credit Card hits...all on the clock. Kyle wasn't shy about explaining just how hard these stardards were...we ALL had a tough time passing them. Ever try sprinting 50 yards and shooting the A-Zone on a IPSC target? Friggin' hard stuff.

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As this standard requires running around with a gun, Kyle showed us how to do so safely while hauling ass. In all of my previous shooting classes...running with a gun in hand wasn't covered. Very good, valuable info here.

Kyle's standards were designed for dudes shooting fullsize pistols. Kyle passed them with his Glock 19, which gave me some hope running a G19 myself. Somehow, I managed to get the top score (passing, BTW) on the drill, and won a set of the Defoor Pistol Sights. During a break Kyle was even generous enough to bust out his tool kit and put them on my slide right there on the range. How many people have Kyle Defoor Sights INSTALLED by Kyle Defoor? Very cool stuff.

After running the standard, we hammered out some groups at 50 yards, as very few have ever done this. We had multiple students shooting 6" groups from 50 yards...lots of hard shooting folks at this class.

After some distance work, we went over turns, and this was something where you really saw Kyle's real world experience shine through. Rather than standard wide swinging turns often taught in classes, Kyle has us kick in 3' gaps on the range, to simulate being in a doorway or other tight space. Kyle showed us how to turn in these tighter spaces and get out hitting on the target fast. We were putting hits on target from less than optimal stances, fixing them as we finished the target off.

Moving closer, we started to go over close quarters shooting.

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Kyle explained where blades came in, and how there was a fork in the road between those who depend on their guns as their only weapon, and those who carry blades and know how to use them. Kyle demo'ed just how fast he could have a blade in a target from up close (using a shot timer on a board - sub .4 second "slow-draw" to entry) and how lethal a blade can be.

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Those that didn't have blades with them would have to use some combatives and try to create distance. Both ways were shown, and those with the option to run the blade stuff, practiced both. Students ran through multiple reps on each drill before we moved on.

After we got comfortable with shooting from retention and retreating, we ran another drill...following the target to the ground.

Most good trainers tell you to shoot the target until it drops, but few actually let you practice it. Kyle ran us through a drill where we could shoot the target into the ground, finish it off with a shot to the head, all while retreating and/or cutting it up with a blade.

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After lunch, we reported to the famed Rogers Range at USTC. I think we were all giddy with excitement to shoot the Rogers, and we all stuffed every mag we had and prepared to assault.

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Kyle first showed us how he clears from cover/concealment...another signature Defoor difference that pretty much no-one who hasn't trained with him has seen. Really good, real world techniques. Kyle's recent and relevant experience in these topics really gives him an edge over many of the other trainers in the industry today.

After running some vertical and horizontal cover on the plates, Kyle addressed shooting from a sitting position...such as one would shoot from a car. Kyle gave us some key tips for POI difference through auto-glass, ran a demo (punishing the steel), and let us run it until we felt good about it.

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After that, we got to shoot our hearts content on the Rogers Range, working draws, SHO work, sitting, shooting from sitting at an angle, etc. Several guns were left sitting open on the baricade windows to cool down...we got those things heated UP shooting that steel!

After we were burnt out, out of ammo, and happy as hell, Kyle pulled us all in for a quick recap/debrief...asked for questions, and we hit the road.

This class covered so much. Shooting for score at 50 yards, working from retention range, shooting while physically dealing with another problem, shooting from sitting, shooting in low light, shooting a falling target, working blades into your firearms work, etc. I can't imagine how to cram any more into a single 2 day class.

Kyle's real world experience, familiarity with the facility, unmatched energy and passion for shooting, and Kyle's simple to the point way of explaining things really makes him one of the best instructors I've ever had the pleasure to learn from. Even having a number of classes under my belt from gents like LAV and Ken Hackathorn...there was a TON to learn from Kyle Defoor.

With Kyle being as in-demand as he is...folks would be a fool not to jump on the next possible opportunity they have to train with Kyle.

I'll be working on what Kyle taught me for some time now. Can't recommend him highly enough.

VA_Dinger

05-02-11, 20:46

Boogwardo

05-02-11, 20:48

Great AAR's and that was an Awesome Class! It was really good to see some of the pure Defoor technique and the reason behind it. If you have taken a prior class with Kyle, I'd take another one, now that he's solo.

I uploaded a hundred and thirty-some hi-res pics to the Grey Group PhotoBucket today, so those should be up soon.

Shawn.L

05-02-11, 21:15

Hands down one of the best classes Ive ever attended.

This was my second class with Kyle and hes quickly jumped to the very top of my list for dudes to prioritize training with.

I saw A LOT of eyes light up on the blade stuff. Its a big topic, for sure, but inside the reaction gap the difference between getting a blade into a fight, and getting a gun into (or back into) a fight is HUGE. I know Me, Jim (coolbreeze), and Kyle where the only ones running small belt mounted fixed blades for the class, but I have a strong feeling theres quite a few more dudes out there researching the subject right now.

SKULL1

05-02-11, 22:42

Nice AAR.. I'm stoked for I will be attending one of kyles class in september..

statie07

05-02-11, 23:21

Great AAR. This was an awesome class! Kyle is an excellent instructor and took the time to do it right.

Kyle introduced me to a new method of holding the pistol that greatly increased my ability to keep the pistol stable and produce more accurate shots.

Got to meet a lot cool people too. The blade work was very eye opening as well. I can't recommend this class enough! If anyone is on the fence about this class, get over it and go!

Kirkrv8

05-02-11, 23:22

Nice AAR.. I'm stoked for I will be attending one of kyles class in september..

Are you going the 3rd of Sept? If so I will see you there!

vel525

05-03-11, 00:43

Huge THUMBS UP for Kyle's class and I completely agree with all of the above comments. I learned so much in these two days my head was spinning on my drive home to prepare for my next range session. Although, I was previously exposed to some of the same concepts (grip, sights, turning, shooting on the move, etc.), Kyle's way of doing these things truly reflected his real world experiences and just made much more sense. His tests were freakin' tough and gave us a true sense of our shooting abilities (the tests are pass/fail so you immediately know what you have to work on). I will be practicing all of these things going forward, including his test so next time I can actually pass :laugh:.

As a newer shooter I was definitely frustrated with myself at times at how amazing all the other people were (seriously, you guys rocked it out :)). Kyle answered all my questions along the way and I will be a much better shooter in the long run because of this experience. Also, we had a great group of guys (and one gal) that shared experiences with each other and I hope to see them again in future training classes. And yes, the blade discussions (and the flash light discussions) were eye opening and I will be expanding my training and crap I carry on my persons as a result of these discussions.

I've already been on Kyle's 2011 training schedule to see when I can take another class (that Advanced Carbine in June is looking so tempting). Hands down, best training I have received and can't wait for next time.

Dave Williams

05-03-11, 02:59

Great AARs guys.

What is the recommended small fixed blade? I am using the TDI currently. There are some vids of the TDIs being deployed very fast.

Dave Williams

Jim D

05-03-11, 07:43

Great AARs guys.

What is the recommended small fixed blade? I am using the TDI currently. There are some vids of the TDIs being deployed very fast.

Dave Williams

The blade Kyle runs can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sayoc-Tactical-Group/100765649969744?sk=wall#!/media/set/fbx/?set=a.107683385944637.4073.100765649969744

They are hand made, 1 at a time, by TrackerDan. Not especially cheap or easy to get...they are in pretty high demand by guys doing concealment work in non permissive environments.

Shawn.L

05-03-11, 08:41

FWIW me and Jim are both carrying the Gerber guardian , but there are plenty of good small fixed blade choices .

Dave Williams

05-03-11, 09:51

Interesting thanks.

Dave Williams

statie07

05-03-11, 21:12

Hey Shawn, what do you think about this knife? Cold Steel Counter Tac II http://www.coldsteel.com/countertac.html

Looks like they can be had for about $45 when searching with google.

Jim D

05-03-11, 21:30

Hey Shawn, what do you think about this knife? Cold Steel Counter Tac II http://www.coldsteel.com/countertac.html

Looks like they can be had for about $45 when searching with google.

I'm not Shawn, but I think we'd both prefer the Braveheart to the one you mentioned:
http://www.notjustknives.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=787

Just need to get some quality kydex done up for it.

VA_Dinger

05-04-11, 10:21

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DefoorPerformaceShooting.jpg

Kyle Defoor
www.kyledefoor.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

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d90king

05-04-11, 10:41

Looks like it was one hell of a class! Looking forward to getting some training in with KD. Great AAR's and pics.

statie07

05-04-11, 11:10

Thanks coolbreeze

Shawn.L

05-04-11, 12:43

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/82ad75af.jpg

Jim D

05-04-11, 13:28

Thanks coolbreeze

No problem.

Some other popular options with the Sayoc group are the Gerber Guardian, the SOG Mini-Pentagon (with the handle thinned out, and custom sheath work), the Braveheart as mentioned, and the TrackerDan Bloodshark (nearly impossible to get).

Some pics and sheaths here:
http://www.bladerigs.com/brstore#ecwid:category=586541&mode=category&offset=0&sort=normal

Shawn.L

05-04-11, 14:19

Ive been using Atomic Dog for all my kydex gun stuff, and Invictus for all my blade stuff (and Matt at Invictus makes a GREAT drone and sheath rig for the guardian BTW ) but when I saw that Bladrigs sight my CC nearly burned a hole in my pocket .
order sent !

statie07

05-04-11, 20:42

No problem.

Some other popular options with the Sayoc group are the Gerber Guardian, the SOG Mini-Pentagon (with the handle thinned out, and custom sheath work), the Braveheart as mentioned, and the TrackerDan Bloodshark (nearly impossible to get).

Some pics and sheaths here:
http://www.bladerigs.com/brstore#ecwid:category=586541&mode=category&offset=0&sort=normal

Good stuff

VA_Dinger

05-05-11, 10:02

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DefoorPerformaceShooting.jpg

Kyle Defoor
www.kyledefoor.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

Special thanks to the U.S. Training Center for the use of their world class facility

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http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/DSC_0184.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/DSC_0186.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/a3ee6a24.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/28b6df23.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/DSC_0189.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/bce702f6.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/8dd6c409.jpg

VA_Dinger

05-05-11, 10:03

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DefoorPerformaceShooting.jpg

Kyle Defoor
www.kyledefoor.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/42b9c16a.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/DeFoor%20Proformance%20Shooting%20ADV%20Handgun/4f4c7ce7.jpg

Shawn.L

05-07-11, 17:16

One thing to add.

True to what Kyle said in the course announcement he ran this class himself in no shit real world concealment.

IWB hip holster on TD1, untucked t-shirt, and a AIWB on TD2. Running a blade on the OSH side grip inboard and mags from a back pocket.

Jim D

05-07-11, 18:00

Yep, was awesome to see Kyle get out of his truck in the AM, and walk right up to the line and get blasting.

The "night-time unload" technique was an awesome lesson learned, too.

Dave Williams

05-11-11, 11:43

The "night-time unload" technique was an awesome lesson learned, too.

Can you describe this?

Thanks,

Dave Williams

Jim D

05-11-11, 15:25

Can you describe this?

Thanks,

Dave Williams

The unique thing I learned was "let the round hit you."

Mag comes you, then you held the gun out and slightly elevated, canted a little so when you racked the slide, the round would eject and smack into your chest. You could then hear it hit you/your gear, and hear it hit the ground.

3 additional racks, then physical checks were done after that, too.

Dave Williams

05-12-11, 00:18

Thanks.

Dave Williams

BSHNT2015

05-25-11, 09:57

Looks like a class I should attend in Sept here on the left coast. Thanks for the great review.

DGonz79

05-25-11, 15:30

Sounds like an awesome class. Can't wait till KD comes to AZ, I'll be there for sure!

Shawn.L

05-25-11, 19:43

Sounds like an awesome class. Can't wait till KD comes to AZ, I'll be there for sure!

Dont miss it.
Im seriously prioritizing my training to make it to Kyles courses.

Im still working on some of the stuff I learned from him and the results are tangable. I havent learned and applied myself like this since the first couple courses I ever took rocked my mindset.

Shawn.L

08-11-11, 20:28

See what you guys missed.............
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86202

Looking forward to shooting with some of you again in November for Carbine !

Shawn.L

11-09-11, 13:14

I hope to see some of the guys from this class for this
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1139245&posted=1#post1139245