View Full Version : Current thoughts on the ACR?
HarvMcNasty
06-28-11, 18:26
Just wondering what the general concensus is on the ACR. I may be in the market for something and kind of wanted something different than the standard AR style platform. I guess a couple of years ago the ACR had problems, but how are they working out today. Did they work out all of the bugs? I.E. Uncommanded Multiple discharges. Thanks ya'll.
JohnAtfAr15
06-28-11, 18:40
I like the ACR, I have shot my buddies a couple times without any problem. He's had it for a couple years now and he's never had a problem with it. i found a website that talks about it, it might give you a little more information http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/foghorn/gun-review-lemil-remington-acr/ If your in the market for a non AR platform style rifle, i would suggest (if you have the money) the SCAR 16(5.56) or 17(7.62). I believe the SCAR 16 is priced about $2500 and the 17 is about $3000. Great gun if you can afford it, not to mention if you can find one for sale.
HarvMcNasty
06-28-11, 19:04
Cool man i will have to check that out. Is there any more opinions out there. Maybe people that own one or two. Maybe somebody that did own one but freaking hated it and got rid of it.
[QUOTE= Great gun if you can afford it, not to mention if you can find one for sale.[/QUOTE]
Or if you can afford MAGS
It seems like a nice rifle to me. Sort of like the offspring of the Robinson XCR and the XM-8.
It seems to me its biggest problem is the manufacture. All the problems I here of is parts breaking. A shame to it is a good idea. I'm going with a scar.
No matter what they might have done lately, the ACR is still a nose heavy pig with a 1:9 twist rather than 1:7.
They could also stand to make the grip modular. If the angle or thickness aren't optimal for you, that's too bad.
That said, it is an interesting concept.
ForTehNguyen
06-28-11, 23:42
works fine but it needs a LW barrel. Im not any faster with it then an appropriately modded AR. I still prefer the AR. Thats just a testament to how good and adaptable the AR is to keep up with the times.
HarvMcNasty
06-29-11, 05:27
That is interesting. Apparently it sounds like the SCAR kicks the ACR's ass. So what about the Sig 556 any complaints or negative feedback on that?
ChicagoTex
06-29-11, 06:20
So what about the Sig 556 any complaints or negative feedback on that?
Do a search. The 556-series is not thought of fondly on here.
To knock off something with as much parts support as the DI AR you are going to have to bring something major to the table with NO shortcomings relative to the legacy platform. The ACR, the SCAR, the XCR, the 416, the Sig, whatever...
and no matter what, the sole-source nature of at least some, or all, of the parts is problematic.
Failure2Stop
06-29-11, 07:36
Just wondering what the general concensus is on the ACR.
The what?
Oh, you mean that thing that looks like a Masada wrapped around a Bushamster AR but with no parts commonality?
No thanks.
HarvMcNasty
06-29-11, 07:46
Well Im just asking simple questions, clearly Im not an expert and never claimed to be.
I have been hoping that the Beretta ARX-160 ends up being a good, cheaper civilian substitute for the ACR and SCAR. We shall see. I look at all of these platforms as an interesting addition to the collection as opposed to an alternative to the AR. As far as the military goes, none of the other platforms will sling 5.56 in an improved way. Considering these platforms will also be twice the cost, that equals immediate fail.
Failure2Stop
06-29-11, 07:59
Well Im just asking simple questions, clearly Im not an expert and never claimed to be.
My reply was tongue in cheek.
My iPhone is not humor compatible apparently.
iroquois pliskin
06-29-11, 11:31
It seems to me its biggest problem is the manufacture. All the problems I here of is parts breaking. A shame to it is a good idea. I'm going with a scar.
[insert scar reference here] :suicide2:
trolling is bad buddy...
Just wondering what the general concensus is on the ACR.
The general thought is Remington better get their shit together and start selling the professional model with SBR options and parts support, sooner rather than later.
I don't know why they don't see the urgency on this matter.
The general thought is Remington better get their shit together and start selling the professional model with SBR options and parts support, sooner rather than later.
I don't know why they don't see the urgency of this matter.
This is definitely true. If they want to save this debacle they need to make it a Remington commercial product and they need immediate backlog of parts, and configurations that the market wants to see.
I have been hoping that the Beretta ARX-160 ends up being a good, cheaper civilian substitute for the ACR and SCAR. We shall see. I look at all of these platforms as an interesting addition to the collection as opposed to an alternative to the AR. As far as the military goes, none of the other platforms will sling 5.56 in an improved way. Considering these platforms will also be twice the cost, that equals immediate fail.
The Beretta isn't going to be cheaper than any of the other offerings.
What equals immediate fail is cheaped out abortions like the SIG556.
This is definitely true. If they want to save this debacle...
That is exactly what this is, a debacle.
The ACR was number 1 on my purchase list 4 years ago. Now it isn't even in the top 10 guns I want to buy.
The problems and circumstances with the ACR are so bad it isn't even worth discussing.
It is obvious the people that run these companies are do not have any type of professional gun use experience.
They might have years of working in the industry, but that isn't the same.
That is exactly what this is, a debacle.
The ACR was number 1 on my purchase list 4 years ago. Now it isn't even in the top 10 guns I want to buy.
The problems and circumstances with the ACR are so bad it isn't even worth discussing.
It is obvious the people that run these companies are do not have any type of professional gun use experience.
They might have years of working in the industry, but that isn't the same.
In my limited exposure to the industry I am AMAZED at the division between engineers and end-users. I see products, and whole guns, sometimes that are so clearly designed in a vacuum it's scary, and I see end users either given no veto rights in the process or so enamored of something new that they don't honestly process the things that they see.
FWIW, I don't entirely blame Bushmaster/Remington in this. The weight issue, in particular, could easily be a result of added structural rigidity that was added due to an initially weak design.
In my limited exposure to the industry I am AMAZED at the division between engineers and end-users. I see products, and whole guns, sometimes that are so clearly designed in a vacuum it's scary, and I see end users either given no veto rights in the process or so enamored of something new that they don't honestly process the things that they see.
FWIW, I don't entirely blame Bushmaster/Remington in this. The weight issue, in particular, could easily be a result of added structural rigidity that was added due to an initially weak design.
I agree.
I would be fine with the added weight if they fixed the barrel twist and got rid of bushmaster.
[insert scar reference here] :suicide2:
trolling is bad buddy... I like the acr. I like looks and ergonomics better than the scar. The musada seems to me a better design than any of the new rifles but i think bushmaster mucked it up.
Sorry if it seems like I'm trying to be an ass;)
variablebinary
06-29-11, 18:49
Generally I like the ACR, but the weight price, parts, and limited barrel options will keep me away for now.
Spare parts and light weight 10.5" barrels would go a long way.
ForTehNguyen
06-29-11, 19:07
both the SCAR and ACR minus their barrel assemblies weigh the same. The place to cut weight would be in the barrel
Except the ACR has the barrel nut wrench, piston/op rod, gas block and op rod guide on the barrel.
The SCAR has a light contour barrel but also only has the gas block w/mini piston attached.
The Beretta isn't going to be cheaper than any of the other offerings.
Is Beretta even talking about a US made ARX?
Except the ACR has the barrel nut wrench, piston/op rod, gas block and op rod guide on the barrel.
The SCAR has a light contour barrel but also only has the gas block w/mini piston attached.
Is Beretta even talking about a US made ARX?
My understanding is that they "plan" on releasing it late next year or early 2013. None of this is official.
The Beretta isn't going to be cheaper than any of the other offerings.
What equals immediate fail is cheaped out abortions like the SIG556.
My fail is in reference to military adoption, not overall concept.
If Beretta has ANY sense, they will make it cheaper than either the SCAR or the ACR's original release price (not some of the desperation prices of late for the ACR). After seeing how the ACR was released, I think the buying public will be very skeptical of a new platform. The best way to break some of the skepticism is to make the pricing aggressive enough to cause some to drop their guard. Anything else will make the ARX a long and slow climb up the hill to acceptance, if it is going to be accepted.
I have an ACR and I like it a lot. It has been utterly "AK" reliable in the several thousand rounds I put through it. I certainly didn't baby it - bone dry and filthy not only with powder residue but also a good amount of mud and sand along with a smattering of really crappy ammo. Others report similar reliability. It performed well for me in 3-gun competitions.
Where it shines is in the failure drills. It is very easy to work/lock the bolt/clear/reload/etc. Once you play with it, you will find the ergonomics to be excellent. Trigger components are AR and I put an after-market trigger in it which works fine so you have a lot of choice there. I haven't shot a SCAR but I did compare them side by side and I found the ACR, in my estimation, to be more robust feeling.
Issues I have are the ambi safety lever was digging in to my finger (I trimmed it) and the weight. The weight is a largely because of the heavy weight barrel they chose for it as well as the relatively massive gas components. Currently I have my barrel at ADCO for to shorten and lighten it. Only other issue is it isn't that popular. The modularity is awesome - while I have read that some loose zero disconnecting and re-connecting the barrel, I haven't experienced the problem at all. If remington/bushmaster get it together and feed the promise (other calibers/options) it would really help. I hope they put some effort behind it because to me, it is a hard-to-beat platform.
My fail is in reference to military adoption, not overall concept.
If Beretta has ANY sense, they will make it cheaper than either the SCAR or the ACR's original release price (not some of the desperation prices of late for the ACR). After seeing how the ACR was released, I think the buying public will be very skeptical of a new platform. The best way to break some of the skepticism is to make the pricing aggressive enough to cause some to drop their guard. Anything else will make the ARX a long and slow climb up the hill to acceptance, if it is going to be accepted.
The only way to lower the price is to make the gun with less quality like the SIG556.
There's an article in this month's Combat Tactics that I think pretty well outlines the issues with the ACR. Nothing most of us haven't already said or don't already know, but for those looking for a summary (or a reason to get upset about someone talking trash about their purchase) it might be worth looking at.
Failure2Stop
06-30-11, 10:26
There's an article in this month's Combat Tactics that I think pretty well outlines the issues with the ACR.
Funny no one has mentioned that article yet. I kinda forgot about it, but I read it and was pretty suprised to see a gunmag with a negative review of a firearm.
The ACR thing has gotten to the point that it's more like a high-school break-up. So sweet and perfect in the beginning, but at the end there is nothing but bitterness and disdain.
This industry is pretty sad sometimes.
Magic_Salad0892
06-30-11, 10:32
Gun designers need to shoot more. They need to shoot twice the amount we do.
Gun designers need to shoot more. They need to shoot twice the amount we do.
I really think it has more to do with management cutting corners.
I really think it has more to do with management cutting corners.
and engineering arrogance.
and engineering arrogance.
IMO, company bureaucracy has this project bogged down.
You have a holding company dictating to its two subordinates who gets to make what.
You have a professional grade model and a bubba grade model. This shouldn't be happening. Bushmaster shouldn't be in the picture at all and the project should be under Remington MPD.
You have all the professional users and high end collectors waiting for the Remington version. Meanwhile the bubba model sits on the shelves and is not selling because bubba can't afford a $2000 assault rifle when he can buy a DPMS for $800.
You have some idiots in management who decided to release the basic fixed stock version first, instead of hitting the market with the full featured version first. You don't go into the market on your first attempt with the neutered version.
Lack of extra rails and barrels. No factory SBR options. No post dealer samples available for SOTs.
1/9 twist nitrided barrel and MBUS sights, obviously done to cut corners.
The only real engineering problem is the weight due to the barrel attachment method.
I was speaking more generally than specifically about this project. But if you read the article I mention they quote Travis Haley and it's pretty easy to see where his complaints are at least in part engineer/end-user separation. Whether that's a corporate problem or an individual/ego problem is unknown, but I work with enough designers and engineers in my day job to have a guess. ;)
and engineering arrogance.
I don't know that it's arrogance so much as lack of exposure to the voice of the customer (either by company/management mandate or pure laziness). You see this in many industries, the auto industry comes to mind as well. VoC comes in early on the project and provides initial direction. But they (engineering) has to keep checking back to make sure what they design meets the customers needs/wants.
Granted, I'm biased because I'm an engineer but I have always been in contact with the customer when it came to what I was working on for them. My primary goal was to make them happy because I realized early on in my career that they paid our bills.
and engineering arrogance.
and lack of engineering talent. Silicon Valley is practically begging the government to lighten up immigration laws in order to bring in more engineers from abroad because the US is simply not producing qualified people. Other industries that are importing engineers are the aviation industry. Lockeed Martin is now one of the best investigatory companies because they cannot get qualified domestic engineers and are forced to bring in non US citizens to work on projects. It's up to LM to ensure that they are not spies. The USA just doesn't produce highly educated people in math, science, and computers anymore.
I think that this is trickling down to the firearms industry as well as it seems that there is so much trial and error on the firearms market now days.
I don't know that it's arrogance so much as lack of exposure to the voice of the customer
What I get in construction is a refusal to engage the customer. What I've seen in the firearms industry is the same, and when forced to engage a dismissal of the opinion of the person that matters.
and lack of engineering talent. Silicon Valley is practically begging the government to lighten up immigration laws in order to bring in more engineers from abroad because the US is simply not producing qualified people. Other industries that are importing engineers are the aviation industry. Lockeed Martin is now one of the best investigatory companies because they cannot get qualified domestic engineers and are forced to bring in non US citizens to work on projects. It's up to LM to ensure that they are not spies. The USA just doesn't produce highly educated people in math, science, and computers anymore.
That is because all the smart people are going to law and medicine now because the schooling is as rough and you get paid more.
What I get in construction is a refusal to engage the customer. What I've seen in the firearms industry is the same, and when forced to engage a dismissal of the opinion of the person that matters.
Good point. I think a lot of that depends on the person. I love meeting customers and going to their facilities because it allows me to see how they are (or want to) using my products/services. It also gets me away from my desk :D. On the flip side, I've had co-workers and fellow students who would refuse to talk to customers either because they were too introverted or were in their industry for so long they think they know all. Enough of the hijack...
As for the ACR, I think it was a great concept that fell short on delivery. I would own one but only after buying and building a few other rifles first. I really liked the caliber modularity that was originally touted as a benefit along with some of the controls setup. Granted, I have only fondled a couple of these in the gun shops but the weight/balance of the gun was not to my liking.
For me, I would prefer:
A lighter weapon (around 6.5 lbs, w/o mag)
1:7 or 1:8 twist, LW profile barrel for 5.56
SBR parts support
Additional calibers (.300 BLK, 6.8 SPC, etc.)
Availability of barrel parts for those who want to build wildcat barrel conversions
But that's just me...
I must admit I was shocked also. I almost regained some respect for gun rags again, almost......
Funny no one has mentioned that article yet. I kinda forgot about it, but I read it and was pretty suprised to see a gunmag with a negative review of a firearm.
The ACR thing has gotten to the point that it's more like a high-school break-up. So sweet and perfect in the beginning, but at the end there is nothing but bitterness and disdain.
This industry is pretty sad sometimes.
Pale Horse
06-30-11, 16:42
Except the ACR has the barrel nut wrench, piston/op rod, gas block and op rod guide on the barrel.
The SCAR has a light contour barrel but also only has the gas block w/mini piston attached.
Is Beretta even talking about a US made ARX?
So............ what are the chances that the good folks at Noveske could be talked into producing barrels for the ACR that could overcome the shortcomings of the factory barrel?
No plans for ACR barrels at this time.
Pale Horse
06-30-11, 17:30
No plans for ACR barrels at this time.
Can't blame a man for trying
I think that hits on one of the disappointments. A lot of us expected to be able to buy the parts to convert any AR barrel we wanted to an ACR barrel, but that too seems a pipe dream at best now.
flanntastic
06-30-11, 19:59
even with a different barrel (14.5" fluted) its still to nose heavy
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/flanntastic/ea12143f.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/flanntastic/bcfb52b5.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/flanntastic/231515be.jpg
I had the chance to run SBR acr about a 10.5 inch barrel that had been turned down
it was quite nice to shoot and ran well had great balance
variablebinary
06-30-11, 20:52
About the only new/piston carbine that isn't nose heavy is the SCAR, which balances perfectly.
I wan't a 10.5" barrel turned down to the diameter of a drinking straw. That should sort the ACR out just fine.
From my perspective, the quibbles can be easily remedied by Bushmaster
1. Spares. This is where companies mess up every single time. Sell spare parts to the public. They are not made of gold. Sell damn spares.
2. Barrel options, which would also address weight because that is the only part of the ACR where weight savings can be easily had without really modifying or cheapening the design down to SIG levels.
3. Price is still on the higher scale, when it really needs to be at $1999.99 tops for the enhanced model.
I must admit I was shocked also. I almost regained some respect for gun rags again, almost......
Dont be i have written negatives as well that's why i buy my kit for articles I dont owe anyone a thing in print......
Pale Horse
06-30-11, 21:19
Dont be i have written negatives as well that's why i buy my kit for articles I dont owe anyone a thing in print......
Smart man.
On the ACR I have not had an issue with mine, other that the weight I love it, that being said I have not run it in a course such as Magpul Dynamics.
As I wright this both my ACR & SCAR are being run by a local Police Detective at a four day course he is instructing. The Detective in question wanted to demo to the class other weapon systems that are out there but a not approved for duty use. Everybody in the class gets to run both the SCAR & ACR and there have been no issues with either firearm.
From my point of view there is bound to be someone in the class that will run them harder or in a different way that I would, so hearing that they have had no issues is a good thing, this is the second time he has borrowed these rifles.
As to parts I would love to get aftermarket barrels, but there has to be a market and I'm only one guy, and I'm sure theres a lot of people out there that say I want........... but when it comes time to pay up they can't be found.
What is the deal with the XCR? I never hear anything about it. How does it compare with the acr or scar?
Heavy Metal
06-30-11, 22:36
I am curious about that statement I believe Travis Haley made where he stated he could break one with simple hand manipulations.
bigdog2003_99
06-30-11, 23:17
No plans for ACR barrels at this time.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj240/bigdog2003_99/2011-01-22_17-08-40_320.jpg
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj240/bigdog2003_99/2011-01-25_19-57-10_550.jpg
but they go so good together :secret: jk
mine was not modified that much from the standard ar15 10.5" lightweight barrel, the acr uses a standard .75 gas block seat just like the ar15 too. the major differences between acr and ar15 is the turned down spot for the piston support and the gas port is significantly smaller (around .063 for a 10.5")
ChicagoTex
06-30-11, 23:47
What is the deal with the XCR? I never hear anything about it.
Sadly, the XCR and it's manufacturer (Robinson Arms) stand as a testament to Rob's statement that:
What I've seen in the firearms industry is the same, and when forced to engage a dismissal of the opinion of the person that matters.
See this thread (http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,9168.0.html) on the XCR Forum by Alex Robinson himself for proof.
topgunpilot20
07-01-11, 07:37
I recently bought an ACR when the price finally dropped to $1600. I like it so far.
Here's my review: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=84110
I read it and was pretty suprised to see a gunmag with a negative review of a firearm.
So dry land is not a myth?
I have been hoping that the Beretta ARX-160 ends up being a good, cheaper civilian substitute for the ACR and SCAR. We shall see. I look at all of these platforms as an interesting addition to the collection as opposed to an alternative to the AR. As far as the military goes, none of the other platforms will sling 5.56 in an improved way. Considering these platforms will also be twice the cost, that equals immediate fail.
As a SCAR owner I would like to see this too. Last I read is that they are not going to release it for Civie use....I hope I'm wrong or they change their mind.
I think that hits on one of the disappointments. A lot of us expected to be able to buy the parts to convert any AR barrel we wanted to an ACR barrel, but that too seems a pipe dream at best now.
People should have known this wasn't going to work from the start. A DI AR-15 barrel cannot be converted to an different design with a gas piston and have the gas ports be the correct size.
Magic_Salad0892
07-01-11, 13:49
People should have known this wasn't going to work from the start. A DI AR-15 barrel cannot be converted to an different design with a gas piston and have the gas ports be the correct size.
It can if it used a gas port attachment like the SCAR.
It can if it used a gas port attachment like the SCAR.
Could you imagine every inbred trying to use what ever olympic arms grade barrel they had and trying to convert it to an ACR barrel? What kind of customer service nightmare would have that caused Remington/Bushmaster when their pos barrel doesn't work?
Ain't that the friggin' truth.
Could you imagine every inbred trying to use what ever olympic arms grade barrel they had and trying to convert it to an ACR barrel? What kind of customer service nightmare would have that caused Remington/Bushmaster when their pos barrel doesn't work?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-02-11, 15:26
Late to the game here, but with all the propriety parts on these rifles- and the ACRs limited commercial and govt success and H&Ks goofiness on parts and SBR barrels for the SCAR for civys, are these rifles just evolutionary dead ends? At least Robinson is personally invested in it and there will probably always be a Sig 5xx rifle around in some form.
In ten years will the ACR and SCAR just be footnotes and dead ends to the new infantry rifle?
justin_247
07-02-11, 19:11
I am curious about that statement I believe Travis Haley made where he stated he could break one with simple hand manipulations.
I'm very curious about this? Can anybody enlighten us on this issue?
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