Huldra Arms - Ultimate Gas Piston Rifles

[HuldraArms]

Huldra Arms and Huldraarms.com would like to thank the folks at M4 Carbine! We have a line of Piston Operated rifles and complete uppers based on the Adams Arms Piston System. These rifles are exclusively available for sale at Mills Fleet Farm and fleetfarm.com. Our web site turned out fabulously, we packed it with information and videos. We currently offer 4 rifles: the Tactical Elite which is comparable to any Piston Operated rifle on the market, the Xpre which is a high end competition/high precision rifle, a Base 5.56 Carbine which dresses up nicely, and a 5.45 Carbine. I have 2,200+ rounds through the 5.45 (over 8 weeks) with no lube and no cleaning and no corrosion/rust. The 5.45 ammo we have been shooting is Russian Mil surplus that comes in tins of 1,080 for $149. We haven’t had a single misfire or mis-feed. The 5.45 carbine has been punching through homemade steel targets at 50 yards. It is a wicked little round, I am glad they finally put it in the AR platform. Direct Impingement ARs would never perform as well with Russian Mil surplus ammo, the Huldra/Adams Arms piston system thrives on it. You have to see the videos on the 5.45. We are going to go to ?,000 without lube or cleaning, as time allows; I do have responsibilities at work, other than playing with guns.

Huldra Arms also has two Complete Uppers: a 5.56 Mid-length and a 5.45 upper that comes with a mag and Wolff extra power hammer spring.

The Huldra Mark IV series of rifles is manufactured for us by Adams Arms, and the centerpiece of our rifle is Adams Arms proprietary piston system. Huldra Arms spent countless months researching the future of the American battle rifle and came to the conclusion that Direct Impingement (DI) is a thing of the past. Of all the manufactures building piston rifles or systems, Adams stood out as having by far the best solution to the DI problem, as well as an extremely high quality manufacturing and assembly processes. We are sure you will be pleased with your Huldra rifle. We were very impressed by the High Quality final product Adams Arms was able to deliver us.

We want to thank all the fine folks and Adams Arms who developed these rifles for our brand and the fine people at Samson Manufacturing. Everyone in the industry has been great and helpful. The 3 Gun folks are a cool group that has been very encouraging.

Mills Fleet Farm is in the Modern Sporting Rifle market! The rifles are in stores now!!! In a few weeks we will be able to ship to FFLs via web ordering. We will post when we are ready for internet sales of rifles. Fleetfarm.com has a page of Tactical Accessories linked to Huldraarms.com. We are in the process of adding more products frequently.

Please look over our web site: huldraarms.com. Let us know what you think.

Thanks,
Stewart Mills
http://huldraarms.com

http://fleetfarm.com

[HuldraArms]

Here is a project the guys and I have been working on. The video is on the long side, but a good watch. We took a Huldra Mark IV 5.45 carbine out of the box, wiped the grease off the bolt and bolt carrier and anywhere else we could find it. And then shot for over 2,200 round over a few weeks. No lube, no cleaning and the rifle didn't have a single misfire or misfeed. There hasn’t been any rust or corrosion after 2,200+ rounds of corrosive Russian Mil Surplus ammo. You have to see the video. The gun is as quick at 2,200 as it was on the first shot. We are going to find out how many rounds we can put through it without lube or cleaning. 2,200 rounds wouldn't be a big deal, but with MilSurp corrosive ammo and no lube it is.

Thanks,
Stewart Mills
http://www.youtube.com/user/HuldraArms?blend=23&ob=5#p/a/u/0/N4UPBXnVznk

[tgace]

Who are you guys, where are you from and how long have you been making rifles?

[rbabbitt767]

Huldra Arms spent countless months researching the future of the American battle rifle and came to the conclusion that Direct Impingement (DI) is a thing of the past. Of all the manufactures building piston rifles or systems, Adams stood out as having by far the best solution to the DI problem...

Hmm...

[tgace]

I don't think these guys have lurked around here very long. :D

[kartoffel]

We have a line of Piston Operated rifles and complete uppers based on the Adams Arms Piston System.

So, are you guys assembling Adams Arms kits, or does "based on" mean you're actually manufacturing something?

[Travis B]

Does their manufacturer tag mean they're a paying site sponsor?

[HuldraArms]

Who are you guys, where are you from and how long have you been making rifles?

We just started.

The Huldra Mark IV series of rifles is manufactured for us by Adams Arms, and the centerpiece of our rifle is Adams Arms proprietary piston system. Huldra Arms spent countless months researching the future of the American battle rifle and came to the conclusion that Direct Impingement (DI) is a thing of the past. Of all the manufactures building piston rifles or systems, Adams stood out as having by far the best solution to the DI problem, as well as an extremely high quality manufacturing and assembly processes. We are sure you will be pleased with your Huldra rifle. We were very impressed by the High Quality final product Adams Arms was able to deliver us.

We want to thank all the fine folks and Adams Arms who developed these rifles for our brand and the fine people at Samson Manufacturing. Everyone in the industry has been great and helpful. The 3 Gun folks are a cool group that has been very encouraging.

Mills Fleet Farm, a leading midwest sporting goods retailer is in the Modern Sporting Rifle market as the exclusive distributor of the Huldra Mark IV line of rifles! The rifles are in stores now!!! In early July we will be able to ship to FFLs via web ordering. We will post when we are ready for internet sales of rifles. Fleetfarm.com has a page of Tactical Accessories linked to Huldraarms.com. We are in the process of adding more products frequently.

Please look over our web site: huldraarms.com. Let us know what you think.

Thanks,
Stewart Mills

http://huldraarms.com

http://fleetfarm.com

[jonconsiglio]

Best of luck with the venture, I wish you guys great success!

[Shiz]

welcome!!! Your prices are reasonable.

a few questions;

-Bolts MP HP tested?
-m4 feed ramps?
-buffer weights?
-You melonite the bore and chamber?
-can we see pics of the carrier?
- can we see pics of the receiver extension of your 5.45x39 that you ran so many rounds through? I would like to see how it holds up, and if there are any signs of Ctilt.


I hope i am not asking too much. The above might be good to have on your site too.

Thanks guys.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Hmm...

I thought the same thing.

[HuldraArms]

I thought the same thing.

Good questions. I will post pics and a formal response tomorrow when I get back to the office. If there is anything else you want to see, just post. A lot of info is on our web site already, if you can't wait.

[ARPATRIOT]

I don't think D.I is a thing of the past,but good luck with the new gun sales!

[Freezerman1]

I cannot speak for the guns but they run a hell of a great supply store chain in Wisconsin. Spent lots of time and money in the stores when I lived north. If the guns turn out like the store it will be a first class operation.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Welcome!

I have a few questions for you:

1) Why are these distributed only at Mills Fleet Farm? Given your last name, are you the owner of or related to the Mills Fleet Farm company? Your market will be quite limited if these are only sold in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and a corner of Iowa.

2) What's the origin of the name Huldra Arms? (see edit below)

3) Your website claims that "Our melonited barrels have higher lubricity, last longer and are just plain tougher than chrome lining." You probably didn't notice but we've had quite a running discussion of nitrocarburizing vs. chrome lining in the technical forums, see link below. Anything you could contribute on the technical side of that discussion would be very interesting.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=83495

EDIT:

I found this info about "Huldra" on their website FAQ:

http://huldraarms.com/faq/

"1. How is Huldra pronounced?

It is pronounced Hool-dra, or Hūl’dra

2. What is a Huldra?

In Norwegian folklore, the sometimes naked, mythically mysterious and tricky Huldra is a stunningly beautiful woman with long hair and a cow’s tail that lives in the forest realm of the trolls. In order to hide her tail the Huldra can disguise herself as a typical dairymaid, wearing the clothes of a regular farm girl. Although, the Huldra can never hide that she is more dazzling and prettier than other girls.

Hunters and the sons of farmers are often lured to the forest by the Huldra. The Huldra attracts men with her lovely singing and beautiful appearance. The Huldra may hold these poor men under her spell for many years. If the Huldra is unsatisfied, disobeyed, or is angered the Huldra will punish the man severely. Her anger and wrath is brutal and without parallel. Sometimes men that are released or manage to escape the Huldra are found wandering in the wilderness, not remembering what has happened to them.

She has long been associated with hunting and shooting; she might be induced to blow down the barrel of a rifle, causing the rifle thereafter to never miss a shot. "

The website and model lineup certainly makes it look like you hit the ground running.

[Freezerman1]

http://www.fleetfarm.com/catalog/product_detail/hunting/firearms/tactical/huldra-5-56-x-45-mid-length-complete-upper

Just one example from the site, looks like they will ship nationwide.

[Sanpete]

These are the same 416 stainless 1/8 twist melonite barrels that Adams Arms has sold for a couple years now?

On the Chrome moly barrels, any chance we could see the profile of the midlength barrel under the handguards? Adams midlength uppers like that utilize a heavy barrel for some odd reason. Wondering if these are different?

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I wish you guys success. American companies with good business practices deserve it. But, this site may not be the best launching point for your company...

[SHIVAN]

I would advise caution in the use of typical internet banter. The site has made them a manufacturer, so assume for a moment that they might be GTG. Trust, but verify.

No lynching necessary, ladies. :D

[13MPG]

I would advise caution in the use of typical internet banter. The site has made them a manufacturer, so assume for a moment that they might be GTG. Trust, but verify.

No lynching necessary, ladies. :D


Fair enough. Competition is a good thing and having more companies providing quality rifles can’t hurt.

Silly statements like “DI problem” do tend to peg the b.s. meter though..

[SHIVAN]

Silly statements like “DI problem” do tend to peg the b.s. meter though..

We understand, but let's act like adults and not transplants from the other forums where threads like this might spiral out of control, and result in locked accounts, etc.

That's all I'm saying.

[13MPG]

Yes sir:D

[SHIVAN]

.....

I even gave fair warning. Please note that infractions will increase in severity if a simple request can not be met.

Come on guys.

[Dave_M]

Good luck with your product!

(I'm not gonna be the one to start a fight with this one... Well, at least not here :D )

[polydeuces]

Just wondering - is this a post or and ad? There's just an awful amount of grey here.
Running a full on marketing campaign coming out of nowhere, or a straightforward post/product announcement by a manufacturer/site-sponsor are not the same.
And somehow there's this deep darkbrown suspicion the poster has (most likely) not taken the time to get to know the culture of this forum before posting.

So things don't add up. Like the "reviews" on the offered site - I quote:

"I was skeptical of the piston driven design until this rifle was in my hands. The first thing to stand out on this rifle was the unbelievable trigger. This is the smoothest trigger I have ever experienced on a tactical rifle, displaying a clean break with a silky smooth "roll" feeling! Accuracy is a given with this trigger; it's amazing."

"The absolute best feature of the piston is that after running consecutive magazines through it, the bolt carrier can literally be held in your hand. The chamber remains far cooler and cleaner than direct gas driven rifles, obviously resulting in fewer weapon malfunctions and needed preventative maintenance. When maintenance is needed, it's far less painstaking than with a direct gas driven rifle."

"I was not a big fan of the piston AR system until actually owning/shooting one. Not only does it stay cleaner, it also stays cooler on the internal parts of the upper/lower receivers."

Hmmmmmmmmm......

[operator81]

Here's a question: On the video on your website and the one you linked, the rifle seems to recoil much more briskly than other videos involving DI rifles. Is the increase in recoil a byproduct of the piston system or are you running a lightweight buffer?

[TonyTacoma]

Looking forward to the pics. Good luck with the venture, as a crowd we are hard pressed to turn in our DI rifles for pistons but I always like trying to be convinced.

[GrumpyM4]

Dear god please don't make this place like "the other site" where just because a company pays to be a business member they don't have to field difficult questions and get preferential treatment.

That being said, I would like them to back up their claims that DI is a thing of the past, and furthermore, whilst all impressive on a static range and all, why didn't they do their 2200 round test under "field" conditions, while attending training courses, etc, and lastly, i'd like to hear the justification as to the validity of a 2200 round test like this in regards to who exactly will *need* to carry 73+ fully loaded magazines and not a drop of lube, and then expend those 73 magazines without ever bothering to stop and maintinence their weapon.

Not trying to stir shit in a "dogpile" fashion or be a nay-sayer just to be a douche (as I am actually a supporter of piston systems), but I really happen to like logic and reason to support claims and the necessity for the tests done and why these tests were the way they were.

Specifically why they think DI is a thing of the past, why they didn't test under harsher conditions, why they think the test they did do has any real world application and what about the Adams arms system makes it superior to other piston systems much less the DI system.

Also, did an accuracy test accompany the 2200 rounds? If not, why? Considering the FNC vs CL debates, was throat and bore erosion checked prior to and after the test?

If none of the difficult questions can be answered, one can only surmise that this gun is designed to nothing but a hobby gun that is easy to clean. If that is your market, then all is well. If not, then there are many questions to be answered.

I am not saying the system can't do, or is incapable of performing, I just want proof, logic, and reason.

[SWATcop556]

No one is saying you can't ask detailed or difficult questions. Hell that's the site's reputation. Ask away.

What won't be tolerated is being a dickhead and swinging your e-penis around. Ask the questions like you're sitting there having beers with the guy.

I understand people's concerns but those concerns will be articulated like adults and not douche-nozzles or zit faced pre pubecent turds.

Clear enough?

[GrumpyM4]

No one is saying you can't ask detailed or difficult questions. Hell that's the site's reputation. Ask away.

What won't be tolerated is being a dickhead and swinging your e-penis around. Ask the questions like you're sitting there having beers with the guy.

I understand people's concerns but those concerns will be articulated like adults and not douche-nozzles or zit faced pre pubecent turds.

Clear enough?

I suppose its clarity depends on how you interpreted my post. If you think it was acceptable, then we're cool. If not, let me know what I should have done differently.

[SWATcop556]

I suppose its clarity depends on how you interpreted my post. If you think it was acceptable, then we're cool. If not, let me know what I should have done differently.

Mine was more of a general response and not directed at one person. That's why I didn't quote anyone.

[Meplat]

While I'm certainly supportive and hoping for the best for any new company, there are certainly a few questions here which I genuinely feel need to be addressed. Some of them have already been asked by others, a few I have not seen asked yet.

First of all, by your own FAQ page on your website, you state that Adams Arms manufactures your rifles for you, and that all of your uppers and carbines use the Adams Arms piston. These pistons have been around for quite a while now, and although I'm sure they run fine, I've yet to see any evidence of them providing any true benefits over a traditional DI set up or seen anyone truly push them to a point where I was forced to acknowledge that they were doing something I have never seen a DI system do, or thought that it couldn't do. What does your line of carbines, which use the exact same system from Adams Arms themselves, do that Adams Arms' haven't in the past or don't currently? And do you have any comparative evidence, findings, or testings that you can show us beyond simply written word and response?

At another point in your FAQ page, you acknowledge the issue of carrier tilt that many previous (and current) piston systems tend to exhibit. Your reply to this is that the cause of carrier tilt is not due to piston systems, but rather the fault of the upper receiver, and specifically a loose or sloppy fit. I have seen "drop-in" piston systems (including Adams Arms') on upper receivers from Colt, BCM, and one in a LMT upper receiver. All of them exhibited some degree of wear, some more than others, inside of the receiver extension after use. I can say confidently that none of these uppers were "special" or defective from the factory, and that they all had proper and correct dimensions and tolerances.
This leads me to believe by your statement that the uppers you are using are proprietary, or otherwise built to a tighter specification that may cause problems or be incompatible. Or maybe Colt, BCM, and LMT are doing something wrong? Additionally, I have long felt and believed that the cause of carrier tilt was due to inherently non-linear impulse of a piston exerting it's force on the upper portion of a carrier, not because of any issue of "tolerances." I'd be very interested to see what you have to say about both of these things.

While this may not be related, I feel that since you had to approve it to be on your "Testimonials" page, that you would feel all the information is correct. I actually feel that much of it is misleading, if not outright false.
In particular, this "list of problems that are inherently associated with Direct Impingement systems: gas blocks had to be replaced, gas rings broke and barrels cracked." Now, while I can see and agree with the issue of gas rings needing replacement, the part that doesn't add up to me is gas blocks that need to be replaced, and cracked barrels.
Quite frankly, I cannot see why gas blocks would need to be regularly replaced because of a DI system, if at all, and I cannot see how a cracked barrel would be the fault of DI instead of poor manufacturing.
If you could explain to me why DI systems need their gas blocks replaced more often than piston systems, and why DI is apparently more prone to cracking barrels, I would be very much obliged.
The next is actually from your page on "fleetfarm," in which your mid-length upper is advertised as having "100 meter accuracy - 1 MOA."
My question is, is this 1MOA claim guaranteed by you? And how are you getting this kind of accuracy? Who manufactures your barrels, and do you have any pictured groupings you could provide to prove this claim?

As a final note, I'd like to remind you that in your video with the illustration of a traditional DI system and the Adams Arms piston system you say that "The forward motion of the sleeve on the plug scraped off any residual carbon, making the system virtually self cleaning." I found this statement to be rather ridiculous, as it's a claim that has been made by MANY manufacturers in the past, and has universally been found to be false. If, however, you truly do believe it to be true, please tell me why and offer some consistent and factual proof.
Thank you for your time and effort responding.

[rob_s]

I have two questions.

What is the background of the company ownership that leads them to the conclusion that DI is dead?

If the rifles are 100% manufactured by Adams Arms how is a Huldra different from an Adams? A detailed list would be interesting.

[Littlelebowski]

Any trainers using these? Have these been to any carbine classes?

[QuietShootr]

I support the above questions - and I wish to add one more:

This site's reputation as the place where you can't PAY for your reputation was questioned somewhere above. (Don't ask me to quote it, I'm not going to get down in the weeds with a nit-picky quote war.)

This is worth what you're paying for it, but how the mods and staff react to this will determine the future of this forum. Will we be allowed to treat this poster the same way we treat everyone else (i.e. ask hard questions, strip the glossy paint off of marketing bullshit, and kick in the junk if there's no actual data, viz. Stan Bulmer and LeMas ammunition) or does paying for a vendor account now mean that you can buy some protection from the roughest direct inquiries?

Because if that's the case, we will have taken a big step toward being TOS Junior, and not only is that the diametric opposite of what this place has stood for, it will be the point at which people can point to and say "That's when M4Carbine started to go downhill." What differentiates this place from everywhere else is that we ask the hard questions - of everyone - and if we toss that aside for money, this place will be just another piece of commercial noise in the famed signal:noise ratio that we're so fond of talking about here.

'nuff said.

[Iraqgunz]

Hopefully I do not hurt anyones' feelings. If so, oh well.

1. The statement about DI being dead is nothing more than some marketing gimmick hype, IMHO.

2. I have seen countless DI AR's run as long as the end user does their job. Yes, it does require some cleaning and maintenance. However, it has also been shown that by PROPERLY lubricating the weapon and forgetting the silly nonsense that the military and TM's teach the weapon will work.

3. There still is no standard when it comes to the piston system. We have seen countless variations- Adams Arms, PWS, HK416, etc.... If the company that makes your piston (generic you) goes under then you are effectively screwed for parts. I can get DI parts almost anywhere and most experienced users know which parts need regular maintenance or replacing. For the difference in cost I can purchase numerous gas tubes, gas rings, etc.....

4. I was recently discussing the AR piston phenomena with someone and one thing that was being discussed was the carrier tilt issue and how it more than likely is exerting more stress on the bolt. It stands to reason that if the carrier is tilting in the rear, then the front of the BCG is tilting as well. Which means the lugs are probably dragging against the barrel extension.

5. Tighter tolerances does not always mean better. I have seen blown primers and other shit get wedged into the upper receiver of AR's, to include Colt. One has to think that even with slightly tighter fit, the issue can still occur and due to the tighter fit, it would be even harder to clear the issue.

6. No piston is self-cleaning. There may be reduced cleaning time, but in the end it still needs to be maintained.

7. I think the piston AR shines when one is firing full-auto for prolonged periods of time. This has to do with the fact there is no gas tube to be concerned about. Suppressed fire is also somewhat better as it reduces the amount of crap blasting back, but it is still an occurrence.

8. I really have a hard time with the 1 MOA claim. Sorry, but there better be alot of independent verifiable data on hand to back this.

One last thing. Your website makes alot of mention of accuracy, reliability, etc.... However, one would think that the important stuff like as another member already mentioned (HP/MPI, material specs, etc...) would be first and foremost available and not an afterthought.

[Buck]

I support the above questions - and I wish to add one more:

This site's reputation as the place where you can't PAY for your reputation was questioned somewhere above. (Don't ask me to quote it, I'm not going to get down in the weeds with a nit-picky quote war.)

This is worth what you're paying for it, but how the mods and staff react to this will determine the future of this forum. Will we be allowed to treat this poster the same way we treat everyone else (i.e. ask hard questions, strip the glossy paint off of marketing bullshit, and kick in the junk if there's no actual data, viz. Stan Bulmer and LeMas ammunition) or does paying for a vendor account now mean that you can buy some protection from the roughest direct inquiries?

Because if that's the case, we will have taken a big step toward being TOS Junior, and not only is that the diametric opposite of what this place has stood for, it will be the point at which people can point to and say "That's when M4Carbine started to go downhill." What differentiates this place from everywhere else is that we ask the hard questions - of everyone - and if we toss that aside for money, this place will be just another piece of commercial noise in the famed signal:noise ratio that we're so fond of talking about here.

'nuff said.


You, or any member, can ask all the "tuff" questions that you wish... That is a core value of M4C... What we are saying is that those questions need to be asked in a "professional manner", That is also a core value of M4C...

None of the Mods or Staff are in any way attempting to discourage the asking of questions or the seeking of facts, we are simply reminding our members to continue to act in a polite and professional manner as they do so...

S/F

B

[HuldraArms]

Back at my desk, thx for your patience. Busy morning, a few fires to put out and a kid to the clinic for a routine checkup…

I will try to answer some of the questions piece by piece it may take me a few responses.

1) Shiz: I will be posting pics of the 5.45 right after this
2) ARPatriot: No DI isn’t a thing of the past, Agreed. My DIs are not in the garbage, but the Military has invested Millions to come up with a better “mouse trap.” We think we found it. It is up to the potential customer to make their own conclusions, but everything I hear all the top manufactures are submitting Pistons for trials. But, no matter the debate is theoretical, only time will tell. At least for now I am having fun doing something that I love. And the gun community, from SHOT show to local guys that shoot competitively are awesome!
3) Someotherguy: the reason why these are distributed only at Fleet Farm is… you guessed correctly. My family owns the company and we previously didn't sell ARs, A lot of AKs, surplus HKs and etc. from Century Arms. But I am a AR guy and spent enough time in the industry to know not to sell a AR with plastic receiver or to sell a rifle I didn't believe in. We will be selling online soon. Between 3 gun and the shot show I made enough contacts in the industry to know who could do what, who was just talking and who had enough balls and vision to do a private label right. Process of elimination, and Adams had our business. They made major representations, and managed to over deliver on all of them. Those guys have no fear!
4) SanPete: yes same barrel as the 416 Adams. Our Mid Length Tactical Elite has a Government Profile, not heavy. We had Adams make that change for us. I think they are going to be getting away from heavy barrels based on the feedback we are getting. Pic coming for you too.
5) Operator81: it is a standard mil-spec buffer, what you are probably seeing is a attempt to bump fire or just fatigue from trying to do mag dump after mag dump via semi auto. The recoil is absolutely less. When I go back to my DIs I can tell the difference.
6) Grumpy M4: We are just getting started, the no lube test is just one of the first ones we can think of. I did put a Tactical Elite through a three day Jeff Gonzales class, but he made me lube it with a bottle of SLIP he gave me. The conditions we are testing under are more strenuous that a class. When we get to 5,000 rds we will bust out a scope and do the accuracy test. Any suggestions beyond that, we are all ears?

I will post more responses later. Have to return phone calls.

Thank for your understanding and support (really mean that), we are new to this forum. It is appreciated.

-Stewart Mills

[HuldraArms]

welcome!!! Your prices are reasonable.

a few questions;

-Bolts MP HP tested?
-m4 feed ramps?
-buffer weights?
-You melonite the bore and chamber?
-can we see pics of the carrier?
- can we see pics of the receiver extension of your 5.45x39 that you ran so many rounds through? I would like to see how it holds up, and if there are any signs of Ctilt.



I hope i am not asking too much. The above might be good to have on your site too.

Thanks guys.

2234 rounds; no cleaning, no lube. Hope the pics come through

8929

8930

8931

8932

8933

[HuldraArms]

welcome!!! Your prices are reasonable.

a few questions;

-Bolts MP HP tested?
-m4 feed ramps?
-buffer weights?
-You melonite the bore and chamber?
-can we see pics of the carrier?
- can we see pics of the receiver extension of your 5.45x39 that you ran so many rounds through? I would like to see how it holds up, and if there are any signs of Ctilt.


I hope i am not asking too much. The above might be good to have on your site too.

Thanks guys.

I can only post 5 pics at a time. :smile:

8935

8936

8937

8938

8939

[tgace]

Have they been asked to participate in "The Chart"?

[rob_s]

Have they been asked to participate in "The Chart"?

no

N/A

[HuldraArms]

Hopefully that should address the issues of carrier tilt. After 2,234 rounds of 5.45 corrosive Russian Mill Surp ammo, this is the result: no wear.

[John_Burns]

I have two questions.

What is the background of the company ownership that leads them to the conclusion that DI is dead?

If the rifles are 100% manufactured by Adams Arms how is a Huldra different from an Adams? A detailed list would be interesting.

Pretty good questions to start with.

On a side note if you choose to answer the first question it might go over better if you approach it understanding the vast majority of posters on this site prefer the Direct Impingement system over all pistons. I also suspect the majority of members fall in that camp.

This preference for the DI system is not an indication of ignorance of the many piston systems and the benefits such systems offer (real and imagined), but a careful weighing of the pros and cons.

Huldra Arms spent countless months researching the future of the American battle rifle and came to the conclusion that Direct Impingement (DI) is a thing of the past.


If you want to state that DI is a thing of the past you will find many here who will disagree and 2500 rnds in 8 weeks through a gun will not impress them.

I really don’t have a dog in the fight but I do sponsor other firearm websites and I know how difficult it can be getting started with a new crowd.

Knowing the basic character of the websites you sponsor and how to interact with the active posters can sure save you a lot of misery. Sometime you have to go through it but I sure hope you spent more time researching your rifle than you appeared to do in writing that post.

Good Luck

[SWATcop556]

We have a Patrol Rifle class coming up in the near future. Have any rifles you want tested? I can also get some members of our team to shoot it.

Just food for thought....

[HuldraArms]

Pretty good questions to start with.

On a side note if you choose to answer the first question it might go over better if you approach it understanding the vast majority of posters on this site prefer the Direct Impingement system over all pistons. I also suspect the majority of members fall in that camp.

This preference for the DI system is not an indication of ignorance of the many piston systems and the benefits such systems offer (real and imagined), but a careful weighing of the pros and cons.




If you want to state that DI is a thing of the past you will find many here who will disagree and 2500 rnds in 8 weeks through a gun will not impress them.

I really don’t have a dog in the fight but I do sponsor other firearm websites and I know how difficult it can be getting started with a new crowd.

Knowing the basic character of the websites you sponsor and how to interact with the active posters can sure save you a lot of misery. Sometime you have to go through it but I sure hope you spent more time researching your rifle than you appeared to do in writing that post.

Good Luck

I did know M4 gravitates to DI, but I love a good debate, as long as it stay friendly.

So far, I love the questions.

I agree with you 2,200 doesn’t impress me much either. I wish could get out of the office more and shoot. It isn’t from lack of intentions. Hopefully I can get it to over 5,000 by the end of July. My range is only 3 miles away. :smile:

[HuldraArms]

I have two questions.

What is the background of the company ownership that leads them to the conclusion that DI is dead?

If the rifles are 100% manufactured by Adams Arms how is a Huldra different from an Adams? A detailed list would be interesting.

The conclusion that DI will be a thing of the past is the Army dual path strategy in replacing DI guns and the submission of major manufactures, who have almost universally submitted pistons. Most folks don’t know who Fleet Farm is, but we sell more hunting equipment and ammo then anyone in the upper Midwest, where the strength of that market is. Look online to see who the top 20 twenty sellers of hunting licenses is in MN and WI, we take up most of the spots. Google it. How does that translate to this discussion? While the hunting market isn’t growing as fast as the shooting sports market, that is the bread and butter of the firearms and ammunition industry. We have their executives in our offices frequently and we love field trips to their offices. Like any good business person they are going to go where the market takes them. Where the military goes the civilian market will follow. The military has made it clear to the manufactures and their submission reflect it, they want a piston operated rifle. Certainly long transition time lines, politics and who has hired what ex-general comes into play; but from the perspective of industry executives that have to plan 5, 10, 20 years out, pistons operated rifles are what they are gearing up for. They want those contracts. They may never get there, the future is a tricky thing, but that’s where the investment is being made and the capital is being allocated.

There were two things we had Adams change for us: a vital change that will go unmentioned and the other had to do with their barrels weights. They have incorporated both changes into their offerings going forward. They guys at Adams are some of the most open minded and responsive suppliers get to I work with.

[rob_s]

With all due respect, that sounds like you came to a conclusion about DI vs. piston and went looking for a justification for that conclusion.

Nowhere in there is anything of meat or merit. Nothing about level of experience with the DI system, failures observed, quality of rifles having those failures, solutions to those failures offered by the piston, etc. And your conclusions are flawed in that even if the US Military adopts a piston gun tomorrow it will not undo 50 years of commercial DI rifle sales. At best what you've presented is market research, but I wonder about even that given your choice of venue here and the conclusions about the market that you seem to have reached being flawed IMO.

As to the second half, it would appear that if Adams has adopted your changes, then we are back to square one with Huldra and Adams being the same thing?

[HuldraArms]

With all due respect, that sounds like you came to a conclusion about DI vs. piston and went looking for a justification for that conclusion.

Nowhere in there is anything of meat or merit. Nothing about level of experience with the DI system, failures observed, quality of rifles having those failures, solutions to those failures offered by the piston, etc. And your conclusions are flawed in that even if the US Military adopts a piston gun tomorrow it will not undo 50 years of commercial DI rifle sales. At best what you've presented is market research, but I wonder about even that given your choice of venue here and the conclusions about the market that you seem to have reached being flawed IMO.

As to the second half, it would appear that if Adams has adopted your changes, then we are back to square one with Huldra and Adams being the same thing?

Affirmative on all of the above, except I think M4 the perfect venue.

I resisted the piston at first. There was nothing better than my Colt’s and Rock River’s. As my mind and wallet opened, I saw the folly of insisting on “mil-spec” parts and components, when the military themselves were trying to leave the what is currently “mil-spec” as far behind them, as fast as they can (which isn’t fast). You are also correct about my response being more market research, but I am a merchant by trade and I would have to be brain dead not to realize the civilian market emulates military procurement.

You are right about me not witnessing failures on the Huldra’s, there hasn’t been one.

[Iraqgunz]

With all respect you are wrong. The military is not trying to leave "milspec" behind. They are trying to see if there is a better mouse trap. If they really thought the piston was the way to go, why not simply adopt the HK416? After all it is being used by elements within SOCOM. Let's not forget that the M4 was being used in some shape or form by Special Operations before it was finally type classified. Until our involvement in Iraq and A'stan the M4 was still almost exclusively being used by Special Operations.

Now we have U.S Marines using the M27.

I have fired the HK416 as well as another piston that had great promise here on M4C. In the end I just couldn't justify it's use or existence.

If the military would pull its' collective head out of it's ass and change some of their thinking when it comes to maintenance and parts replacement things would be much different. Additionally we still have troops in 2011 who still cannot explain how the M16 FOW operates and what it's weaknesses are. There is still by and large a fundamental weakness in how weapons training is being conducted. These are my opinions based upon 25 years of shooting the M16 FOW and approx. 15 years of military and contracting experience with about 5 years of it spent in wonderful and sunny vacation spots.

Affirmative on all of the above, except I think M4 the perfect venue.

I resisted the piston at first. There was nothing better than my Colt’s and Rock River’s. As my mind and wallet opened, I saw the folly of insisting on “mil-spec” parts and components, when the military themselves were trying to leave the what is currently “mil-spec” as far behind them, as fast as they can (which isn’t fast). You are also correct about my response being more market research, but I am a merchant by trade and I would have to be brain dead not to realize the civilian market emulates military procurement.

You are right about me not witnessing failures on the Huldra’s, there hasn’t been one.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I think one of the best things you could do to establish a good reputation for these rifles would be to get them in the hands of professional trainers to use in classes week after week after week. That will either prove durability or reveal flaws very quickly. I have no connections to any particular trainer, choose one or three on your own - obviously many use this site.

I am very interested in any hard information about the benefits of nitrocarburizing over chrome. I can see that more manufacturers are choosing it, but no hard data seems to be in the public realm, apart form some 42 year old US Army studies that I posted links to in a different thread.

I would be very interested in more specifics on the claimed benefits of this piston system over a quality DI. I'll just observe that only a few years ago LMT chose DI for their .308 MRP and it was chosen over HK's piston-based 417 in the UK competition for a DMR type rifle.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Having seen multiple AA kits in use in the past and having not seen anything that makes them special, why would I as the consumer buy a Huldra? Especially when there are no specs offered and really only claims.

The only piston rifle based around the AR platform that I have seen lately worth consideration is the ADCOR BEAR, and thats because it addresses a lot of issues that piston AR's face, unlike the AA kit.

I'll pass on this one. Substantiate the claims, prove your system works, and get it in the hands of respected shooters and we'll see.

Hope Im not banned for this...

[Icculus]

We have a Patrol Rifle class coming up in the near future. Have any rifles you want tested? I can also get some members of our team to shoot it.

Just food for thought....

A fine offer that, if accepted by the mfg, would go a long way toward testing these rifles and validating some of the claims and/or concerns expressed in this thread.

[Iraqgunz]

LS HD,

C'mon enough of the drama queen stuff. You won't be banned for this, nor should you. You are making a valid point and asking questions. That is what this place is about.

Having seen multiple AA kits in use in the past and having not seen anything that makes them special, why would I as the consumer buy a Huldra? Especially when there are no specs offered and really only claims.

The only piston rifle based around the AR platform that I have seen lately worth consideration is the ADCOR BEAR, and thats because it addresses a lot of issues that piston AR's face, unlike the AA kit.

I'll pass on this one. Substantiate the claims, prove your system works, and get it in the hands of respected shooters and we'll see.

Hope Im not banned for this...

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

LS HD,

C'mon enough of the drama queen stuff. You won't be banned for this, nor should you. You are making a valid point and asking questions. That is what this place is about.

Roger, wanted to make a point but will knock it off.

[John_Burns]

I resisted the piston at first. There was nothing better than my Colt’s and Rock River’s. As my mind and wallet opened, I saw the folly of insisting on “mil-spec” parts and components,


I think Rob was, and I know I am, interested in the types of failures you experienced with the Colts that led you to see “the folly”. Quite a few of us here think nothing of running a DI gun for 2500 rnds without cleaning. My DI AR-15 right now has 2300 rnds without a cleaning and I will be shooting it today expecting it to perform in a flawless manner.


You are also correct about my response being more market research, but I am a merchant by trade and I would have to be brain dead not to realize the civilian market emulates military procurement.


If your interest in the piston gun is simply because you believe you will sell more pistons than DI guns that is a business decision, and one which you seem to have ample experience and a proven track record of success to back up.

On the other hand I inferred from your post that you believed the piston gun was simply a superior system, from a functional standpoint, and that was your motivation for your line of rifles. This is the area where I am unconvinced and some others here are questioning your knowledge base and credentials to make such statements.

One point to keep in mind in using Army procurement as your selling point, even if Big Army adopts a piston gun, if it is not your piston gun then where does that leave you.

A lot of different piston setups and if yours is not "The Choice" then that line of marketing can come back and bite you.

Side note, I really think the Mods have done a great job keeping this from becoming a dog pile.:)

[J_Dub_503]

Here's a few articles that may be worth reading concerning DI guns.

http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

[HuldraArms]

I do think that more piston operated ARs will be sold in the future, but the reason why we have chosen not sell DI under our primary brand is I no longer believe the Direct Impingement route is superior. I am not one that operates in the theoretical environment of spec sheets, charts and graphs. These weapons have to work in the real world, under adverse conditions. I think the battle of Wanat sums up the limitations of DI. I was excited about the HK 416 until the Norwegians had major problems with the HK self regulating gas system freezing. We have guys here (in Minnesota) who’s patrol car interior is going from -40 to +80 over the course of some days in the winter. If a HK can't go from a warming hut to arctic conditions without problems in Norway, it wouldn’t hold up around here. Adams Arms has the best solution to both problems. (FYI we are not using a kit, the block is pinned on). Our Tactical Elite is designed to compete with the crème dela crème of piston operated rifles; HK, LWRC, etc.

We do have 6 guns in the hands of LE trainers, all tactical (current and former) operators. (the guys with actual credentials, as opposed to me) All the “big names” in the training industry already have their own rifles, and thus conflicting commercial interests. If you look at the industry lately, it would be perfect for Vince from Sham-Wow to have his name or logo on a major manufactures rifle.

I did take a Tri-Con class with my Huldra. 3 days, Plus 2,200 round count. All the other rifles except the instructors were DIs. We were told not to clean them. There was only one DI that had a problem. The difference between the Piston and the DIs is the DI owners went through tons of lube. It made me want to buy stock in Slip 2000.

Someone posted links to articles, I have read them several times before. Still think the Huldra Adams Arms Operating System is the best out there. And remember I was a DI guy for the last 25+ years.

So basically, I will do my best to provide technical data, but our best way to prove the claims we have made about the Huldra’s is to “abuse them” under real world conditions. We already have a good you tube library, but it is only a start and there is certainly more to come. So the proof will not be provided via chart or graph, but in the real world.

I am going to talk one of the guys on our Three Gun team (the good looking husky one) into making a video for us putting a DI up against the Huldra, un-lubed. I know every says: what is that going to prove, if I am going to get deployed to Iraq they have 55 gallon drums of oil everywhere and if I go to Afghanistan I can just put quarts of motor oil in my nap sack. The real world conditions I wrote about earlier might not always allow for proper lubrication, even for someone working road patrol.

[HuldraArms]

These are the same 416 stainless 1/8 twist melonite barrels that Adams Arms has sold for a couple years now?

On the Chrome moly barrels, any chance we could see the profile of the midlength barrel under the handguards? Adams midlength uppers like that utilize a heavy barrel for some odd reason. Wondering if these are different?

Here it is, I put the MOE handguard on. It doesn’t come out of the box like that. For piece of plastic I like it.

[Travis B]

Here it is, I put the MOE handguard on. It doesn’t come out of the box like that. For piece of plastic I like it.

Is the Mercedes included? :lol:

I'll second what others have been saying on this thread about loaning one out to some of the pros on here. Let them put it through its paces in a couple classes and write up a review on it. For your price point it's very appealing, and reading that one of the pros on here beat it to death and it kept on ticking would be a major selling point, IMO.

[Leonidas24]

Why did you guys choose to go with a short stroke operating system as compared to PWS's long stroke system?

I can't say that I'm genuinely interested but I'm just curious.

[HuldraArms]

Why did you guys choose to go with a short stroke operating system as compared to PWS's long stroke system?

I can't say that I'm genuinely interested but I'm just curious.

Actually, I have to admit ignorance on pws. What’s the PWS all about? I did play with Sig Sauer’s 556, while I am a Sig hand gun fan, I found the 556 heavy and clunky. I never was a big AK guy, so long strokes get much attention. The Adams System is surprisingly light weight, smooth and simple in comparison. We have haven’t stripped our rifles down to nothing to achieve a low weight, they have everything that belongs on a AR, still the weight or lack thereof is impressive. It is all listed on our web site. www.huldraarms.com. The fact that our system is free floating makes it super accurate. I am going to have the “good looking husky guy” (as he likes to be called!) from our three gun team post some pics of his groupings when he gets his account approved.

[bo-hoss]

The fact that our system is free floating makes it super accurate.

Please explain this statement. Thanks.

[HuldraArms]

Please explain this statement. Thanks.

The drive rod isn’t actually connected to anything the way a DI tube, long stroke piston or some short stroke pistons are. The fact that is rests against the piston block, as opposed to being part of it means that is doesn’t interfere with barrel harmonics. Not saying the tube interferes, just in contrast the drive road is free floating. With a monolithic upper or free floating rail the accuracy results are impressive. I will let the “good looking husky guy” post some fun stuff and shot groupings over the weekend, if he makes it on M4 as a user/member.

It’s been fun, turning of the computer and going home to the family for the long weekend, be back to answer Qs on Tuesday. Thx

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I do think that more piston operated ARs will be sold in the future, but the reason why we have chosen not sell DI under our primary brand is I no longer believe the Direct Impingement route is superior. I am not one that operates in the theoretical environment of spec sheets, charts and graphs. These weapons have to work in the real world, under adverse conditions. I think the battle of Wanat sums up the limitations of DI. I was excited about the HK 416 until the Norwegians had major problems with the HK self regulating gas system freezing. We have guys here (in Minnesota) who’s patrol car interior is going from -40 to +80 over the course of some days in the winter. If a HK can't go from a warming hut to arctic conditions without problems in Norway, it wouldn’t hold up around here. Adams Arms has the best solution to both problems. (FYI we are not using a kit, the block is pinned on). Our Tactical Elite is designed to compete with the crème dela crème of piston operated rifles; HK, LWRC, etc.

We do have 6 guns in the hands of LE trainers, all tactical (current and former) operators. (the guys with actual credentials, as opposed to me) All the “big names” in the training industry already have their own rifles, and thus conflicting commercial interests. If you look at the industry lately, it would be perfect for Vince from Sham-Wow to have his name or logo on a major manufactures rifle.

I did take a Tri-Con class with my Huldra. 3 days, Plus 2,200 round count. All the other rifles except the instructors were DIs. We were told not to clean them. There was only one DI that had a problem. The difference between the Piston and the DIs is the DI owners went through tons of lube. It made me want to buy stock in Slip 2000.

Someone posted links to articles, I have read them several times before. Still think the Huldra Adams Arms Operating System is the best out there. And remember I was a DI guy for the last 25+ years.

So basically, I will do my best to provide technical data, but our best way to prove the claims we have made about the Huldra’s is to “abuse them” under real world conditions. We already have a good you tube library, but it is only a start and there is certainly more to come. So the proof will not be provided via chart or graph, but in the real world.

I am going to talk one of the guys on our Three Gun team (the good looking husky one) into making a video for us putting a DI up against the Huldra, un-lubed. I know every says: what is that going to prove, if I am going to get deployed to Iraq they have 55 gallon drums of oil everywhere and if I go to Afghanistan I can just put quarts of motor oil in my nap sack. The real world conditions I wrote about earlier might not always allow for proper lubrication, even for someone working road patrol.

Per this statement, I wash my hands of this thread. The Adams Arms piston IS NOT the end all be all system, the DI system is still performing well (those of use who have used it in harms way can attest to that).

I could care less if you were a DI guy for 150+years, the fact you want to sell me a rifle and yet you aren't a "specs sheet guy" turns me off completely and keeps me from trusting your company when it makes a claim. I can videotape a DPMS sportical going 2200 rounds with out failure, but that certainly doesnt mean that all will do that or that it is to spec.

Good luck with your endeavor, thank you from providing jobs to Americans, but your rifle wont find its way into my hands until you change the very foundation of your company. Please dont take this the wrong way, if it comes off too harsh please let me know.

[GrumpyM4]

I do think that more piston operated ARs will be sold in the future, but the reason why we have chosen not sell DI under our primary brand is I no longer believe the Direct Impingement route is superior. I am not one that operates in the theoretical environment of spec sheets, charts and graphs. These weapons have to work in the real world, under adverse conditions.


The charts are a reflection of the reality of what works and what doesn't. It is indiciative of the "real world" performance expectations that you speak of, yet havn't shown.

These charts that have been compiled by folks with a lot of experience and technical know-how.

This isn't Macnamaras whiz kids you're dealing with here and to dismiss them in such a manner isn't wise.



I think the battle of Wanat sums up the limitations of DI. I was excited about the HK 416 until the Norwegians had major problems with the HK self regulating gas system freezing. We have guys here (in Minnesota) who’s patrol car interior is going from -40 to +80 over the course of some days in the winter. If a HK can't go from a warming hut to arctic conditions without problems in Norway, it wouldn’t hold up around here. Adams Arms has the best solution to both problems. (FYI we are not using a kit, the block is pinned on). Our Tactical Elite is designed to compete with the crème dela crème of piston operated rifles; HK, LWRC, etc.


Uh.....I'm *almost* at a loss for words. Have you ever even looked at the cold weather warfare TM's? You know, the ones that specifically say NOT to take ANY weapon into warm areas from freezing weather outside, let them warm up and melt any snow or ice on/in them, and then head BACK outside? Those conditions will stop up any firearm on the planet. That's not a fault of the 416, that's a fault of my Norwegian bretheren.

That being said, are you claiming that your system can sucessfully negotiate this type of treatment whereas the 416 cannot. Got proof?




So basically, I will do my best to provide technical data, but our best way to prove the claims we have made about the Huldra’s is to “abuse them” under real world conditions.


Which "real world" conditions have you tested them under?


We already have a good you tube library, but it is only a start and there is certainly more to come. So the proof will not be provided via chart or graph, but in the real world.


Sounds like someone who doesn't want to provide hard, statistical data. Sigh.

p.s. since ScottRyan hasn't said anything, on his behalf, I'd like statistical data that the melonite finish on the barrel is superior to a chrome lined barrel.

[Magic_Salad0892]

My questions:

What failures have you observed with .mil spec M4 clones, and how do you feel your Adam Arms system has corrected them?

Is 2.2K rounds the highest round count on any of the guns outfitted with this system, before the launch of your company?

If you're offering the Adams Arms product, instead of engineering, building your own, producing your own, and controlling your own facility, why wouldn't we go to Adams Arms to purchase this product instead of you?

Do you have any experience with this system in SBR, or Suppressor format?

You say the piston is ''free floating'' but if it rests on the piston bock, why do you think it wouldn't change barrel harmonics?

How is accuracy at extended range? (5/600m)

Do you know approximately how much extra stress is being applied to the bolt lugs, or upper receiver, as compared to the legacy Direct Impingement system? If there is no extra stress applied to the lugs, or upper receiver, may I ask how you accomplished this?

What steel is the piston, piston block, barrel, bolt, and bolt carrier made of?

Do you HPT/MPI barrel, and bolt as per TDP?

Who manufactures the barrels, lower and LPK? (I think I know where the rest of the parts are done, but you're free to fill me in there too.)

Has this weapon been tested full auto? How did it perform?

What size gas port do you use on the barrel itself, and what size gas ports are on the piston switch?

Thank you for your time. I appreciate you sponsoring this site, and I also appreciate you providing jobs.

[bo-hoss]

No piston system is "free floating" by nature of design. Anything that touches the barrel, piston block,etc.in any way affects harmonics.

Piston systems also add dynamic mass. (More moving parts)

I'm not to sold on your system at this point. Good luck with your project.

[J_Dub_503]

This forum should have a Hall of Fame such as LF.net

[Dave_M]

I am going to talk one of the guys on our Three Gun team (the good looking husky one) into making a video for us putting a DI up against the Huldra, un-lubed. I know every says: what is that going to prove, if I am going to get deployed to Iraq they have 55 gallon drums of oil everywhere and if I go to Afghanistan I can just put quarts of motor oil in my nap sack. The real world conditions I wrote about earlier might not always allow for proper lubrication, even for someone working road patrol.

Mike Panonne did 2.5k rounds out of a standard 16" BCM with no cleaning and no lube. I did over 2k with an over-gassed SBR, much of it suppressed and FA with a FZ BCG, no cleaning or lube (want to talk about carbon fouling? Suppress an SBR and shoot it full auto. Notable that I only had to hit the BCG with a knife a few times to get it running again for another 500+ rounds) Legion Firearms has a FZ'd 16" rifle that's upwards of 5k rounds currently with no cleaning and no lubrication. All of these guns were DI, BTW. Even still, I can't imagine a, 'real world conditions' where one can't do maintenance for 1k, let alone 2k or 5k...

[John_Burns]

Well as I said my hat is off to the Mods for not letting this degenerate into the dog pile it could and maybe should have become.

I actually feel bad for the Mods that tried to give you breathing room.

I can guarantee you that on the hunting/shooting website I sponsor (LongRangeHunting.com and 24hourcampfire.com) I never got the same effort at simply keeping things civil.

If you feel this was a waste of your time and ad dollars you really only have one guy to blame.

You come on a site like this (no BS) and want to use statements like “Ultimate Gas Piston Rifle” and “DI is a thing of the past” but call it quits for the long weekend??

Seriously??

[Iraqgunz]

You make many good points. My personal SBR before I reconfigured it had close to 5K rounds through it, most all of which were suppressed with various types of ammo in mild to high temps with very little cleaning and I never had an issue.

My cleaning regimen consists of wiping off the BCG, lubing and shooting. I rarely if ever punch the bore and get pretty good accuracy results.

Mike Panonne did 2.5k rounds out of a standard 16" BCM with no cleaning and no lube. I did over 2k with an over-gassed SBR, much of it suppressed and FA with a FZ BCG, no cleaning or lube (want to talk about carbon fouling? Suppress an SBR and shoot it full auto. Notable that I only had to hit the BCG with a knife a few times to get it running again for another 500+ rounds) Legion Firearms has a FZ'd 16" rifle that's upwards of 5k rounds currently with no cleaning and no lubrication. All of these guns were DI, BTW. Even still, I can't imagine a, 'real world conditions' where one can't do maintenance for 1k, let alone 2k or 5k...

[Shiz]

The difference between the Piston and the DIs is the DI owners went through tons of lube. It made me want to buy stock in Slip 2000.

a couple drops after 500 rounds does not really equate to tons of lube. I would be careful of exaggerations such as those.

I would like to see how the rifle holds up under harsh conditions.
Keep us posted.

Sorry i didn't see your answer about MP testing the bolt and barrel. Are the bolts interchangeable with any other AR bolt?

I am looking forward to those pictures of the receiver extension, for signs carrier tilt. Thanks guys.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Mike Panonne did 2.5k rounds out of a standard 16" BCM with no cleaning and no lube. I did over 2k with an over-gassed SBR, much of it suppressed and FA with a FZ BCG, no cleaning or lube (want to talk about carbon fouling? Suppress an SBR and shoot it full auto. Notable that I only had to hit the BCG with a knife a few times to get it running again for another 500+ rounds) Legion Firearms has a FZ'd 16" rifle that's upwards of 5k rounds currently with no cleaning and no lubrication. All of these guns were DI, BTW. Even still, I can't imagine a, 'real world conditions' where one can't do maintenance for 1k, let alone 2k or 5k...

Wasn't it a 14.5'' gun?

Not that it matters.

[GrumpyM4]

Wasn't it a 14.5'' gun?

Not that it matters.

For what it's worth, in 2003 I did a 2100 round "for shits and giggles" run with a 14.5 (perm bi-lock) gun. Did it over two weekends, didn't clean it, only added a little bit of lube(just basic CLP) at 600 rounds, 1200 rounds or so, and 1800 rounds(because I wanted to, not because I had to), got it hot enough to boil the water of a large mud puddle that I put it into to cool it down and then shot it dry again (did this several times), and it kept going.

No chrome or other special coating of the BCG, so there was a bit of nasty corrosion on the BCG by the time I was done.

After that I didn't feel like there were any issues with the DI system that made me feel like I had an inferior weapon.

The reason for this was that back at that time, the piston craze was just really starting and I was getting into the concept. I had actually started to buy the hype that pistons were gods gift and I was looking at designing my own. Hell, that guy on here who makes the buffers with the nipple that fits inside the rear of the BC only put into production something that others had already figured out back then, but just didn't build.

Because I started getting caught up in the idea, like an idiot, I started doubting the DI system and had to settle the matter in my own mind so I ran the shit out of my M4rgery.

Needless to say, it cleared my mind and I have had no problem trusting the DI system again since then.

All this cute little anecdote means is that the tests of this huldra endorse AA system really are not all that impressive, or "real world", nor was my throwing of a smoking hot M4 into a big assed, freshly stirred up by a 4x4 mud puddle, even though it kept running.

Need more facts, less unsubstantiated claims please.

[Dave_M]

Wasn't it a 14.5'' gun?

Not that it matters.

Yes, you are correct. It was also 2400 and not 2500 rounds. My mistake

[QuietShootr]

Stepping back in, I see that this has gone exactly how I thought it would. Only with less cussing.

And with that, I'm done too. I don't think any real information is going to be provided, just Stan Bulmeresque marketing stuff...which pretty much removes any possible credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Peace out.

[Littlelebowski]

There's too many verifiably false statements in this thread. I wish you guys luck Hulda, but you're killing me here.

[Wormydog1724]

I don't understand why having a rifle that can fire X,000 rounds without cleaning is so coveted. Sure you want a rifle that won't go down after 100 rounds, but the so-called need for a rifle to shoot more rounds than probably any one person will carry, without one single drop of lube or even a mild wipe down with a spit on rag I don't get. I've fired 600 rounds of true no maintenance shooting, and experienced no problems. That was over several range trips and the grit and grime finally bothered me enough that I cleaned it. I've fired 300 rounds in rifle competitions and usually clean it before the next match later in the month. I'm not MIL so I can't say anything of the conditions over 'there', but I would still think there would be time to squirt some oil in the receiver and break it down at the end of a day, or week. Again no experience there so I could be way off.

I do have some experience with the Ruger SR556 and I am a fan. I do not know all the technicalities and differences between it and the AA piston system, it may be comparing apples and oranges, but I do like the Rugers system. It did feel to me the Ruger had more 'impulse' I assume from the weight of the rod moving back, but it could hav been my imagination from preconceived Internet reading. However I don't think it really solves any problems. Until I see an out of control rise in 'cracked barrel' incidents that can be PROVEN to be caused by the DI system, I'll stick with and be just happy with my ol out of date dead thing of the past DI guns.

[6933]

I'll pass.

[supersix4]

This forum should have a Hall of Fame such as LF.net

yes sir, we should :D

[GIJew766]

We do have 6 guns in the hands of LE trainers, all tactical (current and former) operators. (the guys with actual credentials, as opposed to me) All the “big names” in the training industry alrea


SNIP

May I ask who these "big name" trainers are? I'm simply curious to know seeing as there has been an offer from a professional all of us here on M4C respect to get guns in the hands of his guys for eval.

Also, as has been asked, but I'm unsure if you've answered it, what failures of the DI system do you site for your decision to pursue the piston set-up? As many of us have carried the DI system in the line of duty (mil/LE/contracting/etc), we are familiar with the system and have been pretty satisfied with it.

I am not denying that the military is investigating the piston system, but as Iraqgunz put it, the piston truly shines in high volume fully automatic fire and suppressed set-ups. For the majority of folks, they really won't be running F/A with this piston gun, so what benefit is there for the semi-only crowd?


H

[6933]

All the big names? So...(in no order)LAV has shot one, Pat Rogers, TigerSwan cadre, Randy Cain, Paul Howe, Jeff Gonzales, Ken Hackathorn, Kyle Lamb, Kyle Defoor... If this is the case, then there are members here that will be able to verify and discuss with them.

Please let us know which trainers currently are T&E'ing.

[ryr8828]

You guys are piling on the sponsor here, asking the same questions and making the same allegations over and over.

Maybe you don't have anything else to do. I've never seen anything come on the market without some hype and that includes you alls favorite rifles.
This guy is promoting piston and you di fans get your feelings hurt, kind of like you say Bushy and dpms and Oly fans get their feelings hurt when you pound on them.

I'd think at least you could quit asking the same questions repeatedly, let someone come on here who has shot the system, and see what they say. You're like a bunch of dogs after red meat and it appears to me it's because some want to appear knowledgeable.
Let the guy get his system to market while he supports this site that you reside on.

[polydeuces]

Allow me to offer you this suggestion for product re-launch and marketing plan. Designed to re-capture the interest of a sophisticated end-user audience (because you just lost most of them).

Read the "Filthy 14" write-up and understand what it means, all of it.
Then invite some of your shooting buddies, get a few cases of ammo, (5.56 or .223) and have a little 4th o' July shootout. Push about 5-6K rounds (or more, even better) through your basic standard rifle, back to back, without cleaning, lubricating, and post the results w pictures - whatever they be.

Instead of giving a big self-promo/commercial post, this will be far more effective and a basis from which to build a dialogue.
For starters.

If you would have familiarized yourself with this forum you'd have known this would be a good idea.
Isn't reconnaissance an essential part of every battle plan? Innovation and new ideas will always be met with skepticism, often deservedly so, especially when accompanied with relatively unsubstantiated claims and statements. You can argue the validity of your claims until hell freezes over, but you'd be wasting time.

Then the next the thing to build some real reputation for your product product is give it the most destructive grueling workout you can imagine (preferably by better known credible 3rd parties), samples of which can be found elsewhere having been dished out to the (by you aforementioned) dead DI system, and let the results speak for themselves.

If your claims are true, your platform should not just equal, but by far exceed anything a DI platform has ever been able to do.
Other than that you will continually be met with an increasingly un-interested and highly skeptical audience.

[Artiz]

You guys are piling on the sponsor here, asking the same questions and making the same allegations over and over.

Maybe you don't have anything else to do. I've never seen anything come on the market without some hype and that includes you alls favorite rifles.
This guy is promoting piston and you di fans get your feelings hurt, kind of like you say Bushy and dpms and Oly fans get their feelings hurt when you pound on them.

I'd think at least you could quit asking the same questions repeatedly, let someone come on here who has shot the system, and see what they say. You're like a bunch of dogs after red meat and it appears to me it's because some want to appear knowledgeable.
Let the guy get his system to market while he supports this site that you reside on.
The questions keep being asked because they have yet to be answered.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

You guys are piling on the sponsor here, asking the same questions and making the same allegations over and over.

Maybe you don't have anything else to do. I've never seen anything come on the market without some hype and that includes you alls favorite rifles.
This guy is promoting piston and you di fans get your feelings hurt, kind of like you say Bushy and dpms and Oly fans get their feelings hurt when you pound on them.

I'd think at least you could quit asking the same questions repeatedly, let someone come on here who has shot the system, and see what they say. You're like a bunch of dogs after red meat and it appears to me it's because some want to appear knowledgeable.
Let the guy get his system to market while he supports this site that you reside on.

Lol, ok. We've been asking for answers since he came on here, but all he gave us were the same claims weve seen before without any facts. Oh, and Ive shot an AA kitted rifle...its nothing new.

[mjkeat]

All the big names? So...(in no order)LAV has shot one, Pat Rogers, TigerSwan cadre, Randy Cain, Paul Howe, Jeff Gonzales, Ken Hackathorn, Kyle Lamb, Kyle Defoor... If this is the case, then there are members here that will be able to verify and discuss with them.

Please let us know which trainers currently are T&E'ing.

Not to defend this guy (don't know him and have no interest in his product) but here is the entire post in which the partial quote you are jumping on came from.

I do think that more piston operated ARs will be sold in the future, but the reason why we have chosen not sell DI under our primary brand is I no longer believe the Direct Impingement route is superior. I am not one that operates in the theoretical environment of spec sheets, charts and graphs. These weapons have to work in the real world, under adverse conditions. I think the battle of Wanat sums up the limitations of DI. I was excited about the HK 416 until the Norwegians had major problems with the HK self regulating gas system freezing. We have guys here (in Minnesota) who’s patrol car interior is going from -40 to +80 over the course of some days in the winter. If a HK can't go from a warming hut to arctic conditions without problems in Norway, it wouldn’t hold up around here. Adams Arms has the best solution to both problems. (FYI we are not using a kit, the block is pinned on). Our Tactical Elite is designed to compete with the crème dela crème of piston operated rifles; HK, LWRC, etc.

We do have 6 guns in the hands of LE trainers, all tactical (current and former) operators. (the guys with actual credentials, as opposed to me) All the “big names” in the training industry already have their own rifles, and thus conflicting commercial interests. If you look at the industry lately, it would be perfect for Vince from Sham-Wow to have his name or logo on a major manufactures rifle.

I did take a Tri-Con class with my Huldra. 3 days, Plus 2,200 round count. All the other rifles except the instructors were DIs. We were told not to clean them. There was only one DI that had a problem. The difference between the Piston and the DIs is the DI owners went through tons of lube. It made me want to buy stock in Slip 2000.

Someone posted links to articles, I have read them several times before. Still think the Huldra Adams Arms Operating System is the best out there. And remember I was a DI guy for the last 25+ years.

So basically, I will do my best to provide technical data, but our best way to prove the claims we have made about the Huldra’s is to “abuse them” under real world conditions. We already have a good you tube library, but it is only a start and there is certainly more to come. So the proof will not be provided via chart or graph, but in the real world.

I am going to talk one of the guys on our Three Gun team (the good looking husky one) into making a video for us putting a DI up against the Huldra, un-lubed. I know every says: what is that going to prove, if I am going to get deployed to Iraq they have 55 gallon drums of oil everywhere and if I go to Afghanistan I can just put quarts of motor oil in my nap sack. The real world conditions I wrote about earlier might not always allow for proper lubrication, even for someone working road patrol.

He isn't saying the "big names" have shot his rifle. He's saying that there would be a possible bias in their review of his rifle since, in his experience, they all have a rifle thats commercially available.

Lets not keep pilling things onto the heap in hopes the important questions get answered.

[Littlelebowski]

You don't seem to understand the sort of technical discourse this site is built on.

You guys are piling on the sponsor here, asking the same questions and making the same allegations over and over.

Maybe you don't have anything else to do. I've never seen anything come on the market without some hype and that includes you alls favorite rifles.
This guy is promoting piston and you di fans get your feelings hurt, kind of like you say Bushy and dpms and Oly fans get their feelings hurt when you pound on them.

I'd think at least you could quit asking the same questions repeatedly, let someone come on here who has shot the system, and see what they say. You're like a bunch of dogs after red meat and it appears to me it's because some want to appear knowledgeable.
Let the guy get his system to market while he supports this site that you reside on.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Hi Guys,

Let me first introduce myself, my name is Dave and I am on the Huldra Arms shooting team. I help out with testing, promoting, training and of course compete when we can. I am not an employee of Mills Fleet Farm or Huldra Arms, as in I do not a paycheck of any type form them. I currently do have a Huldra X-Pre which is for the shooting team and a Huldra Tac Elite which I purchased myself.

Second, I do want to thank many of you for your best wishes and support. I know when I talked to Stewart (Huldra Arms owner) about our web presence I knew we would not be welcomed with open arms with out proving ourselves on this forum. I have been a member here (under a different name which was changed to my current one) for a while and know the reputation of the forum and several of it's members. I also know that hard data and facts are king, I respect and appreciate that. My experience with the AR platform has been since I was young with my parents being a member of a sportsman club with AR service rifle matches. I then began a career in LE attending numerous armorer, firearms (rifle, pistol, SMG, shotgun) classes, and numerous instructor classes. I enjoy training and learning, I constantly try to be a student when I can attend training to learn more.

I appreciate the mods helping keep the debate professional. Also there was one comment about my weight, if you watch the videos I am the fat one, and the only one named Dave. Yes I know I am fat, I have always been big and for a while it was an advantaged when I wrestled heavy weight, and play defensive line in high school. Now I know it's caught up to me and I am working on it. But, if you want to attack me personally fine, but please PM me or email me, let's keep this thread about the rifles.

As far as some data, yes we use Adams Arms to manufacture our rifles with other quality components, VLTOR, Mega, Samson, ergo grip, etc. Our carriers are one piece, and our uppers are machined specifically for the piston system, no busing in the gas tube hole. We also pin our gas piston block and made an improvement to the gas plug that Adams has incorporated to their production. Our extractors have a black insert, and our RE's are staked and come with standard buffers. Bolts are not MPI, and we use Adams Arms melonited barrels or stainless barrels, I am not sure the origin of the blanks but will find out. I also have seen the debate on the chrome and melonited barrels, I am not a metals expert so I am looking to learn here on that subject. We are in the process of running more tests, including carbine classes, some torture tests, and documenting shooting, maintenance, and malfunctions.

To address some of the posts, and I know I am probably missing some answers or questions. We would love to have a "big name" trainer run with our rifles. Currently several already have relationships with other quality manufactures, whether it be Daniel Defense, LWRC, etc. If someone is interested please contact me and I can see what I can do to work with the higher ups. I do regional training with the rifles and they have been running great, but I know I am relatively no one in the industry and my training schedule is a very small fraction compared to others on this site. Our other T&E rifles are with members of the LE community in our area. Several have military background, including active duty in combat, and have been on the 2 way firing range. We are in the process of getting more testimonials as they continue to use the rifles, either in training or duty use. We have an upcoming TriCon carbine 2 class this late summer/fall that I know at least 3 Huldra rifles will go through, possibly more. We are also running the rifles in the 3 gun arena, both with local (MN) matches as well as a couple of national matches. None of us on the team will claim to ever be the best shots. But we are happy with the data we get from performance of the rifles, letting other people shoot them and their feedback, as well to see the trends in the industry to stay current.

Someone mentioned running a test without cleaning, that's what we are doing with our 5.45 project. Some have questioned what's the relevance of such a test as what real world condition would that simulate. I can't answer that with a great situation but we want to see how far we can go with that rifle. When will it fail, we are genuinely curious and will post when it does. Also, I know someone mentioned about going into cold and hot etc. I know that this practice is not recommended but in my experience it happens all of the time. In LE, our rifles our kept in the front of the squad with the officer, and in my area we have hot 100 degree+ summers, and cold winters, the coldest I remember last year was -37. As such it may be 70 in the squad but then the rifle is deployed outside on a winter search and introduced to cold weather instantly. Like wise the officer may be outside with the rifle for a long period of time in the winter and enter a warm structure. We have some tests planned for this type of situations this winter. We will document the tests with video the best we can and post those results. As far as un-lubed tests, I wish I could say all officers, whether a pool rifle, a squad rifle, or an assigned rifle, I will say they are far from the best at keeping their rifles cleaned and/or lubed. We are hoping to get some data on this with testing some of the 5.56 rifles with DI guns. If I had more time, believe me I would be at the range.

I know the piston systems are not popular here, I get that. I know quality DI guns are just that, quality firearms. I also own quality DI guns, Colt, Noveske, Defensive Edge, and some others. When I was first introduced to the project I was a hard sell, I was very leery about the piston systems. When I started doing research on Adams Arms, I liked their system compared to other systems in that you do not need any tools or other parts to disassemble the system, you do not need to remove any rails or fore ends, and they OEM for several companies making parts more available than with other manufacturers.

The common complaints I see and hear about piston systems are these:
1. What problem do they solve
2. Less accurate
3. Heavier/un-balanced
4. No common parts and parts availability

1. I remember when I first used a Mac versus Windows. I couldn't tell you what problems macs solved or PCs but I did like user interface better and how they worked. With the piston systems I am impressed with how well the chamber and BCG runs cleaner than with DI. I know piston systems still get dirty, in different spots. I also know that quality DI guns will run when dirty, not trying to argue with that. It's a different system that right now there is a lot of interest in. Several high quality manufacturers are coming out with piston guns, HK, LMT, LWRC, FN, the ACR, etc. Not all are exact AR platform but there is a lot of interest and new products with piston systems, that's all I am saying, sincerely not trying to add fuel to the debate. Is it the better "mouse trap," we feel there are advantages but ultimately you will have the decision on how you spend your money on whatever rifle you choose to buy.

2. I have noticed no accuracy issues with my Huldra rifles. My range only goes out to 200 yards but when I sighted them in all of my groups were less then 1 MOA with my X-Pre, the best was just under .5" at 100 yards, my best group at 200 was about an 1.25". I was using an 8 power optic with Federal 77 gr ammo. My Tac Elite with my 1-4 Trijicon TR24 was hitting 8" steel out at 200 no problem. On paper I was getting all of my hits in a 2" circle target on the rest at 100 yards with the triangle reticle. I am going to swap optics and do some accuracy testing when I get some time with some fine cross hairs to get some group data. At the last 3 gun match the longest steel I shot was 385 yards I think, I know it was just under 400. I hit the steel no problem with my 2-8 optic. I am not sure if it was an 8 or 10" gong. There was a bonus gong at 485 which I did not engage to try to get a better time. We are going to find some longer range space to get some more long range accuracy data.

3. I have not noticed any significant weight or balance issues versus my other DI rifles. I know that the gas piston system does weigh more that a gas block and tube. Another project I have planned it to strip some barrels and weigh them with FSP/gas blocks and our parts to see and post the numbers.

4. I know you generally can't go to a gun show and get a new drive rod etc. However in my area I can't go to a gun show and get a gas tube either, and if I can its a crappy one. All of my parts come from a brown or white truck so thats a wash to me, I know that different for some of you guys, but again, thats to me. Also we have 31 stores that will be available to work with parts support. I am not sure of those exact details yet but we are committed to supporting our products. If someone did buy one of our rifles, Adams uses standard gas port sized so they could even be converted to DI by added a gas block/tube, BCG, and enlarging the gas tube hole. Our BCG's will take any bolt, sans rings.

Guys I hope to be a friendly face here and hope to help and answer questions. I do have a couple of real jobs though, my wife is a nursing student. I will try to be here as much as I can. I know some of you have possibly rubbed the wrong way by some of Stewart's posts. One other thing to take in, this is his personal project and vision. He could have easily just bought brand X, Y, Z and carried them in his stores. He had a vision of a private label to brand, built with his parts, packages, and configurations. He has a lot of enthusiasm, energy, and passion for his rifles, these are a pride of his and has probably any of us would be with a product or our own, a little biassed towards that. Again, I know DI guns are king here, so we are kind of the odd kids out here, like going on a chevy forum bragging about the new ford mustang. We sincerely hope to be a part of this forum and hope some of you with check out our rifles.

My offer on this and any other forum, if anyone is in Minnesota, I will make my rifles available for you to shoot if we can meet up. I may even be able to get some ammo. What have you got to loose other then your time?

Thanks guys and I look forward to more friendly discussion.
Take care and have a safe 4th of July.

Dave

[J_Dub_503]

You say you don't work for them or get a paycheck but...

Hi Guys,

Let me first introduce myself, my name is Dave and I am on the Huldra Arms shooting team. I help out with testing, promoting, training and of course compete when we can. I am not an employee of Mills Fleet Farm or Huldra Arms, as in I do not a paycheck of any type form them.

As far as some data, yes we use Adams Arms to manufacture our rifles with other quality components, VLTOR, Mega, Samson, ergo grip, etc. Our carriers are one piece, and our uppers are machined specifically for the piston system, no busing in the gas tube hole. We also pin our gas piston block and made an improvement to the gas plug that Adams has incorporated to their production. Our extractors have a black insert, and our RE's are staked and come with standard buffers. Bolts are not MPI, and we use Adams Arms melonited barrels or stainless barrels, I am not sure the origin of the blanks but will find out.

To address some of the posts, and I know I am probably missing some answers or questions. We would love to have a "big name" trainer run with our rifles.

If someone did buy one of our rifles, Adams uses standard gas port sized so they could even be converted to DI by added a gas block/tube, BCG, and enlarging the gas tube hole. Our BCG's will take any bolt, sans rings.

Dave

[TOrrock]

You say you don't work for them or get a paycheck but...

Check his signature, which should explain things a bit better.

They're definitely going to have fight an uphill battle after their initial entry here, but nitpicking something like that isn't constructive.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

You say you don't work for them or get a paycheck but...

That's correct I do not work for them. I help out, (without pay) and represent the line, which is why I use the terms "we" "us" etc. As I am on the team I am sponsored by them thus why I help out.

[Cagemonkey]

What's the recoil like? Most piston AR design seem to magnify the recoil impulse. I had a LWRC upper and didn't like the feel at all. Granted having a TA31 ACOG with its short eye relief didn't help.

[13MPG]

Hi Guys,

Let me first introduce myself, my name is Dave and I am on the Huldra Arms shooting team. I help out with testing, promoting, training and of course compete when we can. I am not an employee of Mills Fleet Farm or Huldra Arms, as in I do not a paycheck of any type form them. I currently do have a Huldra X-Pre which is for the shooting team and a Huldra Tac Elite which I purchased myself.

Dave


Now that is a much better intro.

Why did you guys chose to go with a non MPI bolt? The rifles you are selling are not the bargin basement type so I don’t see how a slightly higher price would have hurt.

[6933]

My bad.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

I don't find the recoil to be that much different then DI rifles. My former primary rifle was a 10.5 sbr, I know comparing an SBR to a 16 is not the same. I am going to also do some more side by side shooting with a DI gun and a Huldra to see about other differences with various components. I have some different buffers to try, I am also going to pick up a battle comp and play with that some. The Huldra I have the most time behind is the X-Pre. I was very impressed with this rifle. The recoil and muzzle rise on this rifle is minimal, I feel a big reason for most of that is the Adams Arms comp.

As far as the reason for not MPI testing the bolts, I don't know. I am going to look into that further. We by no means consider this a bargain rifle either, we are proud of the rifles. Also, one thing I plan on looking into, or maybe someone else may know, if other piston companies, LMT, LWRC, HK etc if they MPI test their bolts on their piston lines. I won't name names but I have also notices, in doing research, there have seen some other rifles that have been favorably reviewed on this site by some respectable names not have MPI bolts either.

Thanks guys, and enjoy your holiday. I am off to work so probably won't be able to check or reply much until tomorrow.

Dave

[Shiz]

Thanks Dave.

I appreciate your candor.

Its the same AR bolt though correct? so when the bolt dies, we can swap them out right...(understanding the carrier is different)

The reason I ask is the parts that tend to break/wear in AR are the extractor/bolt etc. If those are not proprietary, that is good.

The thing I am most incredulous about is the claim that there is no carrier tilt wear after thousands of rounds. I am not saying it is not possible, that is why I asked for pictures.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

My bad.

No worries.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Thanks Dave.

I appreciate your candor.

Its the same AR bolt though correct? so when the bolt dies, we can swap them out right...(understanding the carrier is different)

The reason I ask is the parts that tend to break/wear in AR are the extractor/bolt etc. If those are not proprietary, that is good.

The thing I am most incredulous about is the claim that there is no carrier tilt wear after thousands of rounds. I am not saying it is not possible, that is why I asked for pictures.

You are correct, same bolt sans gas rings. We also use a bolt spring to prevent broken lugs that other piston manufactures have suffered. The spring keeps the bolt forward while it rotates. Adams Arms claims to have what they call half inch technology, a half inch piston stroke and half inch skids to prevent tilt. There is one other proprietary thing about their carriers that the rep shared with me that speperated them from the competition, that is a guarded mechanical trade secret so I won't share it. It has to due with machining and shows they did some engineering to work with the strike of a piston. As far as tilt, I was really looking for this too on my rifles as well as our 5.45 project. So far I have not seen it, I was really surprised by this on our 5.45 project as I have seen this with other piston systems. This is part of the reason why we chose Adams Arms and why we like their system. Adams Arms has been a great partner to work with and I will be seeing if I can also get some more data from them for you guys. I know there was questions about barrels, please forgive me if I missed something else.

Take care,
Dave

[Ed L.]

The big problem is when ANYONE uses the word ultimate, especially if it is new firearms design by a new company that has not seen a lot of use. Now add a piston AR on this messageboard . . .

[Shiz]

Hi Dave, I hope to explain some people's reactions, at least mine. It is not that they hate the product.

Many resent the fact that companies try and tell us something is broken when it is not. It reminds me of those "as seen on TV" infomercials..where they show a lady struggling her asses off to open a zip-lock baggie, or a fridge door or something equally ridiculously easy. Then try and sell us a super-magic-happy-sumo sealer/door opener for only $59.95

The other day i was sighting in one of my personal weapons, and some idiot came up to me while i was working, and tried to tell me how bad my cleaning system was for my AR. I stopped an listened, as he tried to sell me a 35 dollar cleaning tool that would help me not "ruin my barrel", like I had been... I said i wasn't interested, calmly. He then ranted angrily about how i was going to ruin my guns. I then stood up, approached him, about a foot away, and repeated that I wasn't interested. He left.

The way I see the AR-GPU, is that it is very new and for the next while, we are public beta testing. (sorta like the middy gas system a few years ago) I don't expect it to run perfectly, not do I expect it to outperform a DI AR. Most resent it when someone makes claims such as those. A piston system could be the next evolution in the AR platform. It isn't yet, but with more advances like the ones you intorduced to Adams, it could be.

I understand that marketing a new product, people tend to exaggerate claims to sell their product, like the original Huldra dude did. You seem like you understand that, and are taking a less "as seen on TV" approach. I, for one, appreciate that.

Hang loose dude. And who cares if you are fat. Show people a pic of Larry V. next time. Hes still a bad ass.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Thanks Shiz,
If we ever meet I do actually have quite a nice radio sales voice if we ever start that approach. It's funny you mention the mid length as I remember that introduction with a lot of the same thoughts. I'll try to get as much data out there as I can, again my offer is open if anyone wants to meet up and get some trigger time. I understand the reactions. I appreciate your comments about my weight, I don't think I qualify to be in the same sentance or compared to LAV, he certainly has been there and done that. Me, I'm just a fat cop who likes guns. I'm working on and hopefully next year I'll be on some videos and people may ask "what happened to the fat guy?".

Thanks and take care,
Dave

Hi Dave, I hope to explain some people's reactions, at least mine. It is not that they hate the product.

Many resent the fact that companies try and tell us something is broken when it is not. It reminds me of those "as seen on TV" infomercials..where they show a lady struggling her asses off to open a zip-lock baggie, or a fridge door or something equally ridiculously easy. Then try and sell us a super-magic-happy-sumo sealer/door opener for only $59.95

The other day i was sighting in one of my personal weapons, and some idiot came up to me while i was working, and tried to tell me how bad my cleaning system was for my AR. I stopped an listened, as he tried to sell me a 35 dollar cleaning tool that would help me not "ruin my barrel", like I had been... I said i wasn't interested, calmly. He then ranted angrily about how i was going to ruin my guns. I then stood up, approached him, about a foot away, and repeated that I wasn't interested. He left.

The way I see the AR-GPU, is that it is very new and for the next while, we are public beta testing. (sorta like the middy gas system a few years ago) I don't expect it to run perfectly, not do I expect it to outperform a DI AR. Most resent it when someone makes claims such as those. A piston system could be the next evolution in the AR platform. It isn't yet, but with more advances like the ones you intorduced to Adams, it could be.

I understand that marketing a new product, people tend to exaggerate claims to sell their product, like the original Huldra dude did. You seem like you understand that, and are taking a less "as seen on TV" approach. I, for one, appreciate that.

Hang loose dude. And who cares if you are fat. Show people a pic of Larry V. next time. Hes still a bad ass.

[13MPG]

As far as the reason for not MPI testing the bolts, I don't know. I am going to look into that further. We by no means consider this a bargain rifle either, we are proud of the rifles. Also, one thing I plan on looking into, or maybe someone else may know, if other piston companies, LMT, LWRC, HK etc if they MPI test their bolts on their piston lines. I won't name names but I have also notices, in doing research, there have seen some other rifles that have been favorably reviewed on this site by some respectable names not have MPI bolts either.

Dave

Let us know what you find out.

Even if another “big” name company was selling their rifles with non MPI bolts I still think it would be a good move on your company’s part to provide MPI bolts with your rifles. The peace of mind is worth the extra cost IMO.

I just watched the video and the guys comment at 3:39 is just plain silly. It’s comments like that which really make Huldra look like…... Sure, I guess it sounds cool for the mouth breathing, booger eating, gun show crowd but it is not going to advance Huldra’s cause here.

I think that you guys should take Swatcop556 up on his offer to test the gun.

[GIJew766]

Dave,

Thanks for taking a slightly less "salesman-like" approach with us. Not like I or any of us really have a problem with someone marketing their product, but we like not having smoke blown up our asses if you know what I'm saying.

I understand you have your own training group, and that you too have a vested interest in a particular brand of rifles, so I appreciate your candor there. Are there any trainers outside of your company who have T&E'd your rifles? Anyone outside of your department? How likely would it be to get some samples into the hands of folks like SWATCop556, Dave M or Templar if those gents are interested? Hell, even though I'm no longer primarily in LE since leaving CBP, I'd be more than happy to run a T&E gun and give y'all objective opinions. :D

Back to a serious note, now, seeing as you are more of the trigger puller from the company. What, if anything, do you think the Huldra piston guns do better than a quality direct impingement gun (aside from being "cleaner" please)? Honestly, what flaws have you encountered in your assessment of the rifles? When I say honestly, I mean it brutal honesty. I can respect the positives a bit better if I feel the evaluator has some manner of criticisms.


Thanks again for taking time out from your most likely busy schedule. It does mean a lot to us.


Stay safe, brother.

H

[Dirtyboy333]

Hey Dave, thanks for the replies. You seem like a honest and realistic type of guy and that will do you well around here unlike the "smoke n mirrors" approach.

I'm not a piston fan but I've looked at your website videos and animations and I gotta say the AA system has sparked my interest. I also researched much of the other AR piston designs and I do think you made the right choice in systems (not including DI:p). I know there's not much hard data in regards to Melonite vs CL but for now, I for one prefer Meloniting (and beleive the claims). I also like that you went with 4150 CMV.

Lastly, it was a wise choice to come on here and inform us that your bolts aren't MPI bc we weren't getting that answer earlier and ignoring the question pretty much answered it for us but at least now it doesn't seem so shady. There has been much debate on here on the MPI subject and it very well may be an outdated technology (I think it is as well as some of the other big companies you mentioned). The only issue is that companies that MPI usually do the important things correctly and the big names that don't MPI are more or less trusted on their reputation. Regardless of the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of MPI, a new company like yourselves might benefit by testing and being able to stamp "MP" right on your bolts and website.

Anyway, thanks again for coming on here and discussing your rifle in a more professional manner.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Thanks guys. Just getting home from work so not really a thorough post. I appreciate your input and feedback. I spoke to the owner tonight and we are looking into MPI. No promises guarantees etc, but we are doing some more homework on it. I wish I didnt have to be so grey but that's where we are at. And being a holiday weekend won't be probably until next week when we start to get some info.

We also briefly discussed the idea of other demo rifles but nothing set or anything past a discussion. I am actually the only one on my department with a Huldra. All of the other LE instructors, who teach for their agencies, are from different departments then mine. I'm not sure if they will signup here or not but I think we will be continuing to get feedback as we progress.

GI I will respond to your post but I want to respond with some more content then just a quick post before bed. Hope you understand.

Take care
Dave

[GrumpyM4]

Good start. Let's keep the info flowing.

[msstate56]

Dave,

Have you or anyone else tried your upper with a Vltor A5 receiver extension? I wonder how the piston system would work with the A5. Most all DI uppers regardless of gas system or barrel length, seem to be more reliable, and recoil smoother with the A5.

[Freezerman1]

My brother was able to get his hands on a couple uppers and rifles in the store. He liked the fit and finish. Machining looked clean, well done. Visually the bolt carrier looked good. These are just quick visuals. By no means did he give a scientific evaluation.

[GIJew766]

I understand completely, Dave. And thanks again for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer questions about a company who isn't paying you. It is truly appreciated.


No rush on the answers, as this thread ain't going anywhere anytime soon.



H

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Hey Guys,
Thanks again for your patience, I am working this weekend and also trying to fit in family stuff over the holiday weekend.

Let me try to get some replies taken care of,
I have not tried the A5 system, since it has been introduced I have had them on my list. I buy my own gear for the most part, but it is on my list along with some various comps. I plan on testing this and when I do I'll make some posts with my perceptions. I have been impressed with the reviews I have read about the A5 and like VLTOR stuff in general so I don't think I'll be disappointed.

GIJew766,
As far as my impressions of the rifles. The one thing that impressed me from the start is the parts and components used in the builds. By that I mean I was happy to see a basic rifle as well as some rifles with some great accessories out of the box. More manufacturers are starting to offer "pre set" rifles with quality rails, grips, stocks, etc and I was please with the partners we chose. We use Samson rails, VLTOR stocks, ergo grips and Mega uppers on the X-Pre 1. Speaking of the X-Pre 1 as little as it sounds, I really really like the fore end diameter. It is under 2", dont have the specs in front of me, nice and small. So many manufactures for their rails or free float tubes seem to use a soup or pringles can as their guide which I don't care for. When we were at the 3 gun matches several people liked this as well and complained of other brands being to big and uncomfortable to get a full grip. Also the finish and fit are very nice, I know a small cosmetic thing but it is a nice touch. As a customer when I buy quality rifles, I appreciate attention to detail and little details.

Other things, I know you mentioned not to talk about "cleaner" but just a quick note. I was impressed on how clean the BCG do stay. This may not seem like that big of a deal and I know dirty guns run, but speaking from the guy who has to maintain the PD inventory its a nice plus. I know this has been brought up before so enough said.

Recently we also did some "torture tests" with our rifles. The Huldra ran really well in all of them, sand, water, and mud. We plan on filming these and posting a video. Overall I really like how I guns run, I know quality DI guns run well as well but this is something I look for. I have about 2000 rounds through my X-Pre and it is running great. The only time I cleaned it was after a 3 gun match where it was pouring rain. Not a high round count I know but I have gotten other rifles that would not run well right away. I wish I had more for you GIJew but the things that I like about our rifles are much the same you would probably like about a quality DI gun, reliable, accurate, and dependable, etc.

If I had one complaint or thing I have noticed it would be the heat of the gas piston block. By design, of any gas piston system, the part that now gets hot is the gas block area as this is where our exhaust goes. When I was running the 5.45 I had to adjust the position of the VFG a little back. Granted we put about 600 rounds through it very quickly so any gun would be hot, but this thing was hot. I like the mid length rail systems as they allow me to put my VFG where I like it without getting close to the hot spot so to speak. On my X-pre I did't notice heat as much but when shooting that it has been either in practice stages or 3 gun type stages with round counts for more like sprints if you will rather then marathons.

I hope that helps a little, I will admit I am a little rushed for time. We have alot of family stuff, a parade and I'm sure more for the holiday with the family.

As always, any questions please let me know and I'll do my best to get you guys the data. If I don't have it, I'll get it. If I missed anything, sincerely not intentional, please remind me.

Thanks guys and have a great 4th of July, celebrate this great country we live in.

Take care,
Dave

[Wormydog1724]

Any chance at selling just the X-Pre upper?

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Any chance at selling just the X-Pre upper?

We are currently selling two uppers, our 5.45 and a midlength 556. Not sure if there are any plans on the X-Pre upper. You can purchase an upper from Adams Arms but if you look at the price you can see the value of buying a complete rifle.

Thanks
Dave

[GIJew766]

Dave,

Thanks for the solid response. Sounds like the rifles are built pretty well. And I do understand how, being the one who has to maintain the armory, you'd want a cleaner rifle.

I am curious to see, once a third party here has gotten their hands on one of your rifles, how they run against a solid carbine like a BCM or DD, considering the price point. I am also curious to see how they run against the PWS guns as well.


Again, thanks a lot, as it is appreciated. Especially considering this is an unpaid gig for you, and that you have a job that kind of demands your full attention. Enjoy what is left of your 4th, stay safe, and God bless, brother.


H

[HuldraArms]

It is good to see that Dave’s participation on here is so well received; he really knows his stuff and was worth the wait. I have never posted on the forums before, he understands the lingo. In some of my earlier posts I foretold of his participation on answering the questions he wanted to handle, it just took a little while longer than we thought to get him on here, as he deleted his normal account and it took some time to activate his Team Huldra account.
In addition to Dave’s vast knowledge of firearms, technical and otherwise, he is the most consistently great shot I have encountered. I have spent time next to Dave on the line and he takes his stuff seriously and is usually the best in the class. (I think it has something to do with the free stuff the instructors give out to the guy with the best score that day). But beyond his abilities in class, either as an instructor or a student, Dave has mad Three Gun skills. The Huldra Team was at the Midwest Three Gun Championships in Missouri this spring, it was just a few days before the Bianchi Cup, the best shooters in the world were assembling in that part of Missouri for the both the Championship and the Cup. The competition was intense and the stages were super technical, and they made no apologies for it. Dave did better than any of us on the team, but he really came through for us on the team event. We were up against the Army Marksmanship Unit, Team Noveske, Midway Arms, Black Rain Ordinance, FNH, and the list goes on. We did well, or should I say Dave did well. Troy ran the shotgun beautifully; Dave ran his Glock like it was a STI, super fast (his skills gave us a good score) and I did ok with the rifle. We got a good time score, considering we were up against the best in the world, and even got applause. Dave is the cornerstone of our team and the only one of us that consistently competes on a world class professional level. So Dave can both talk the talk… AND WALK THE WALK!!!
To address a few concerns that went unaddressed earlier; I think they went unaddressed, there are pages and pages of comments, hopefully I have read and understood them all:
-Freezerman1, thanks for the reply. The quality, fit and finish is outstanding, we have gotten a lot of good feedback like that from those in the know, Thx.
-Ed L., yep the word Ultimate is my doing. When our team met with Adam Arms at the SHOT show this year to finalize our agreement for them to produce these rifles for us under our label, I was playfully accused by Adams CEO of building these rifles for myself. I plead guilty. There were no other rifles with no other operating systems that had been developed thus far that qualified to be called the Ultimate rifle, according to me. Now most certainly that is my personal opinion and it is marketing. Marketing shouldn't be a bad word. This forum is supported by “marketing” budgets, and every advertiser on here asserts their point of view. But it is exactly that, a point of view. It is however validating that the Tactical Elite, that was specified by us to come with a lot of “bells and whistles” (Ergo grip, Vltor Stock, JP TRIGGER, Samson rails, Govt contour barrel, ect) is our best seller.
-Wormydog1724, there really isn’t anything special about X,000 rounds without cleaning the gun, unless you are using corrosive military surplus ammo. We shoot a few hundred rounds through the 5.45 and let it sit for a week, no corrosion or rust. We have kept doing that for 2,234 rounds. No lube, no cleaning =No corrosion. And the 5.45 shoots flawlessly. That is what first and foremost we are trying to demonstrate. That impresses an OCD gun cleaning fanatic like me.
-There are a few participants that keep asking for carrier tilt pics, or lack thereof carrier tilt. The pics should be on page 2. I posted them last week. Another good byproduct of our testing: 2,234 rounds and not one bit of evidence that the carrier tilt accusations are true, at least as it applies to our operating system. And again, no 2,234 is not an extremely high round count.
-And finally, yes I am fearless enough to take the bait and engage in the Piston vs DI debate. If you look earlier in the thread, there were a lot of challenges to our sponsorship of M4 carbine posted, that I responded to, and then later I was described as salesman (in the pejorative sense of the word.) While the Piston DI thing has been worked to death on M4 Carbine, this is some of the most informed people in the industry and I like the challenge of defending innovation and critique of the status qou. Huldra Arms’ participation here will make us a better brand.
I will try to respond to the big picture “Who” and “Why” questions, and Dave will field the “What” and “How” questions.
Thanks, and I have to admit, even getting piled on is worth getting our message and perspective out there.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

He's just braggin about me cause I'm on his team :). Before anyone goes thinking I'm that good, It was my first national 3 gun match. Overall my goal was to finish in the middle and I did, I did have one stage that I did better then I thought though. Of course it was my last stage just when I was getting things figured out ;). I'm not sure I'm world class, but I certainly do enjoy it and give it my best.

If you guys have any questions please ask.
Thanks and take care,
Dave

[HuldraArms]

He's just braggin about me cause I'm on his team :). Before anyone goes thinking I'm that good, It was my first national 3 gun match. Overall my goal was to finish in the middle and I did, I did have one stage that I did better then I thought though. Of course it was my last stage just when I was getting things figured out ;). I'm not sure I'm world class, but I certainly do enjoy it and give it my best.

If you guys have any questions please ask.
Thanks and take care,
Dave

You sell yourself short Dave, the pros paid attention while you were shooting.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

You sell yourself short Dave, the pros paid attention while you were shooting.

Well thanks. I'm with holding my smart ass remarks.

[Wormydog1724]

Thank you for the personal replies. Nothing like asking a question and actually getting a detailed, nonassholeish response in a timely manner. More companies should follow your lead in that regard.

I'm semi-invested in DI systems now, I have 3 DI Ar's and one 12.5" DI SBR on the wish list, pending approval from the batf of coarse. If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't change it. Not that the Piston system doesn't have its place, I think it does and it will catch on, eventually. Its just going to take some work and a bullet proof outstanding "ultimate" piston system to shut the nay sayers. As I stated I have some first hand experience with the Ruger SR556, my bro has it and I've been able to put approx 200 myself through it and seen him put approx 1,000 through it. He's not a heavy shooter like me but at the end of the day its aggravating when he takes it down and just wipes it off and its clean! I wish the best for you and your company, if you do it right, you have nothing to worry about.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Thanks Wormy,
Whether or not we get into NFA sales, SBR uppers etc, one of the things on my shorter list of projects is a Huldra SBR, probably 11.5". I think the piston platform would really run well here and if I can get some time with a can I would too. Currently MN is not a suppressor state. I do have some connections with some dealers and agencies that have them though so we'll see what we can come up with.

We appreciate the compliment on our service, we will try our best.
Take care,
Dave

[polydeuces]

Are your barrels HP/MPI'd? (or did I miss that info?)
When looking at your site at "Complete Uppers" (middy) probably would be good to put a bit more info - can't find any info re: bcg, maybe I missed it? (as well..)

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Are barrels are 4150 CrMoV and melonited inside and out. We are not currently MPI or HP testing our bolts or barrels. We are currently gathering more information about this from our manufacturer, at this time we are still in the research stage. I know slot of folks on this site inquire about that, we aren't trying to hide anything on the specs of our rifles/uppers.

As far as our complete uppers go, yes they are complete, including our one piece BCG designed specifically for our piston system. All you need to do is put in on any complete lower and you're good to go. I know the owner is subscribed to this thread so he will see your comments about specifying that it comes with the BCG, thanks for the feedback. Is there any other info that you feel would be helpful to have on the specs/website?

As far as our other specs go, if there is anything that was missed in the thread or would like to know please do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks for your interest.
Take care,
Dave

[SomeOtherGuy]

Is there any other info that you feel would be helpful to have on the specs/website?

As far as our other specs go, if there is anything that was missed in the thread or would like to know please do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks for your interest.
Take care,
Dave

Two fairly small things that I would like to have more information on:

1) The website for the midlength upper (and I think all rifles and uppers) states "The barrel chambers are speed polished, reducing resistance on the cartridge entering and exiting the chamber. " I haven't seen the term "speed polished" used elsewhere and I don't know exactly what it means. Could you explain and maybe have that added to the website FAQ?

2) I may have missed it, but what steel is the bolt made out (e.g. Carpenter 158, 8620, 9310, other)? Is it shot peened? Is the bolt nitride treated also? I don't even know how stress on the bolt with the piston system compares to a DI system, but those specs would help to at least compare materials and construction to other AR15s.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Thanks for inquiry.

EDITED TO ADD CORRECTED INFO:

Corrected (had to review my notes):
1. Speed polishing is a term that Adams Arms uses. When cutting the chambers, after cutting and finishing (melonite), they polish the chambers to ensure smooth surfaces in the chamber. Adams Arms uses a high speed polisher in the chamber to ensure a smooth chamber for feeding and extraction. This is an extra step to avoid rough chambers from finishing that generally are broken in by firing. Our rep added that this is an extra step they do do ensure a high quality build. The specs and dimensions of the chamber are maintained and measured through out this process to ensure no deviation from the chamber spec.

Added:
2. I know our BCGs are one piece stainless but I do not know the grade of stainless, they are also melonited. I also do not know the grade of bolt steel but Monday morning I will make some inquires to find this spec out, I'm interested too. The bolt is also melonited.
-They are mil-spec bolts made from Carpenter 158 Steel, confirmed by Adams Arms at 2012 SHOT Show (Previously listed 8620 which is incorrect). Also any mil spec bolt (minus gas rings) will fit in our BCGs. We do not use or require a proprietary bolt, extractor, or ejector. One nice thing about the Huldra/Adams Arms system is that (with the exception of the 1 piece carrier and bolt spring) the bolt group can be any quality mil spec parts.

Thanks again, I will post when I get more information.
Take care,
Dave

[Hmac]

I had an opportunity to look a Huldra over at a pistol training class I was taking from Dave yesterday. Got too late to shoot it at the end of the class (fussy range neighbors - no shooting after sundown), but the rifle itself is intriguing. It appears to be well thought-out and well put together to my less-than-professional eye. I don't know Stewart Mills at all, but certainly know of his reputation in the community as a highly respected, effective, and successful businessman (my son even works for him although quite a ways down the chain). I do know Dave, having taking several pistol and rifle courses from him. I know of his passion for shooting, his skill as an instructor, and his integrity as a professional. And the guy can really shoot. I don't know much about piston guns, but given my knowledge of the reputations of the people involved, I'm certainly inclined to give this project the benefit of a doubt and I look forward to the opportunity to shoot the gun.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Hmac,

It was great, as always, having you in class. You are a great student, and great shot, and have a great technical knowledge. Thanks for posting, next time were at the range I'll make sure you get some trigger time. maybe we can even set something up sooner in the area, kind of like an "open house" but at the range. If we get something set up I'll make sure to post here, facebook, and make sure you guys get the message.

Thanks again,
Dave

[sinlessorrow]

i have a question.

what made yall decide DI is a thing of the past?

im being serious, im curious to your thinking and your arguments about what makes the DI so outdated and makes a piston so much better?

one thing i think of is the british military, they just adopted the L129A1 which is a AR-10 variant in DI, so clearly they dont think its a thing of the past.

so i am curious to hear your opinions on the advantages of piston over DI

[Travis B]

Stop trolling/trying to increase your post count and actually read the thread. You questions have been addressed, with better grammar.

i have a question.

what made yall decide DI is a thing of the past?

im being serious, im curious to your thinking and your arguments about what makes the DI so outdated and makes a piston so much better?

one thing i think of is the british military, they just adopted the L129A1 which is a AR-10 variant in DI, so clearly they dont think its a thing of the past.

so i am curious to hear your opinions on the advantages of piston over DI

[polydeuces]

i have a question.

what made yall decide DI is a thing of the past?

im being serious, im curious to your thinking and your arguments about what makes the DI so outdated and makes a piston so much better?

one thing i think of is the british military, they just adopted the L129A1 which is a AR-10 variant in DI, so clearly they dont think its a thing of the past.

so i am curious to hear your opinions on the advantages of piston over DI

FWIW/just an observation - your question has been addressed earlier in this thread - if you care to read the entire thing.
Then there are several threads and discussions, current, old, addressing this topic as well.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Hi there,
As others have stated we have listed our answers to these a few pages back. If you still have questions please let me know and I can do my best to provide with the answers. Im not trying to be short, sincerely, just trying to save from typing the same info over and over thats all.

Thanks,
Dave

i have a question.

what made yall decide DI is a thing of the past?

im being serious, im curious to your thinking and your arguments about what makes the DI so outdated and makes a piston so much better?

one thing i think of is the british military, they just adopted the L129A1 which is a AR-10 variant in DI, so clearly they dont think its a thing of the past.

so i am curious to hear your opinions on the advantages of piston over DI

[Mirnyx]

Let me start out by saying I love Fleet Farm stores. It's a man's store if there ever was such a thing. Guns, ammo, hunting, fishing, tools, clothes, food. What more could you ask for?

It's cool to see AR rifles of any type in the display case so I'm not going to cast judgement on the Huldra product one way or the other. The marketing and presentation need some work. Tonight I was at Fleet Farm to pick up some P-Mags and rimfire ammo. I listened to a conversation between the employee and a customer looking for a coyote rifle. To my surprise I learned special operations troops were coming back from the war saying this is the rifle we want and asked "Huldra" to build it for them.

The guy working the counter struck me as your typical middle aged Minnesota sportsman; not an AR connoisseur or some wannabe commando. He knew virtually nothing about the platform and didn't even seem comfortable in his knowledge of the rifles features. My gut feeling is he was repeating what he had been told. It's disappointing to hear employees misrepresent the product.

Please train your staff, they represent you and your product.

[Travis B]

Who in the SOF community is requesting Huldra specifically?


Let me start out by saying I love Fleet Farm stores. It's a man's store if there ever was such a thing. Guns, ammo, hunting, fishing, tools, clothes, food. What more could you ask for?

It's cool to see AR rifles of any type in the display case so I'm not going to cast judgement on the Huldra product one way or the other. The marketing and presentation need some work. Tonight I was at Fleet Farm to pick up some P-Mags and rimfire ammo. I listened to a conversation between the employee and a customer looking for a coyote rifle. To my surprise I learned special operations troops were coming back from the war saying this is the rifle we want and asked "Huldra" to build it for them.

The guy working the counter struck me as your typical middle aged Minnesota sportsman; not an AR connoisseur or some wannabe commando. He knew virtually nothing about the platform and didn't even seem comfortable in his knowledge of the rifles features. My gut feeling is he was repeating what he had been told. It's disappointing to hear employees misrepresent the product.

Please train your staff, they represent you and your product.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

First let me thank you for your support of Fleet Farm stores, I agree they are great stores, the ultimate "man mall." We think its cool to the new products we are adding in the sporting arms and other areas.

I am sorry you heard that and more sorry that an employee was telling customers what you reported. I can personally say that no employee was ever trained anything near what you stated. I say this because I was present at the employee training where we presented the material to managers and full time staff. Staff was trained on the parts, features, etc on the Huldra line as well as the handguns we started carrying along with accessories.

Not to make excuses but Fleet Farm has over 5000 employees. We know that we are only as strong as our weakest link and it looks like one store or staff could use some additional training. We at no time were ever requested by any "special forces" unit or any military unit to make our rifles to set the record straight. We have no military contracts, our rifles are not used by x y or z unit just to prevent any rumors or speculation. We do have rifles being used on duty by LE in patrol and SWAT/Tac operations, all of our testers are full time LE and most have adopted their rifle as their duty rifle, including me.

Again I am sorry for your experience and the other customer who we will probably never have the opportunity to set straight. Could you please PM me the store you were at and I will make some calls monday to the corporate and store management as use this as a very relevant teachable moment. I know we had some "moments" in our introduction here but this is not the reputation we want, are striving for, or are spreading.

I hope you understand and again appreciate you bringing this to our attention, I look forward to receiving specifics from you via PM or email.

Thanks,
Dave

Let me start out by saying I love Fleet Farm stores. It's a man's store if there ever was such a thing. Guns, ammo, hunting, fishing, tools, clothes, food. What more could you ask for?

It's cool to see AR rifles of any type in the display case so I'm not going to cast judgement on the Huldra product one way or the other. The marketing and presentation need some work. Tonight I was at Fleet Farm to pick up some P-Mags and rimfire ammo. I listened to a conversation between the employee and a customer looking for a coyote rifle. To my surprise I learned special operations troops were coming back from the war saying this is the rifle we want and asked "Huldra" to build it for them.

The guy working the counter struck me as your typical middle aged Minnesota sportsman; not an AR connoisseur or some wannabe commando. He knew virtually nothing about the platform and didn't even seem comfortable in his knowledge of the rifles features. My gut feeling is he was repeating what he had been told. It's disappointing to hear employees misrepresent the product.

Please train your staff, they represent you and your product.

[Dave-HuldraArms]

Who in the SOF community is requesting Huldra specifically?

No one that I know of, there is a secret office at corporate that says top secret though :D.

Never been in there.

[Addictedgunguy]

I have a huldra AR 15 X-Pre 1 Iv had it a year now and I have to say I'm more then impressed. The operation is smooth. Easy to clean and take down. The piston on the rifle enables it to operate cooler and very clean. After a day on the range there is minimal cleaning. Being former military I have to say its very nice not having to scrap a bunch of carbon off the bolt. At 100 yards I was able to get a group of about the size of a quarter. Having this gun makes going to the range a very nice welcoming.