Went to the range with the new AR today (pictures included)

[GLP Standard]

For those that havent seen my thread in this section about having gotten a new AR-15, ill enlighten you. ....I got a new AR-15. My first to be exact. Actually, my first rifle ever to be exact. I'm very new to AR-15s and rifles in general. The only rifle Ive ever even held is an AR-15, and my shooting experience with them isnt that advanced (before today, Ive only ever put 100 rounds through an Ameetec when qualifying the two times I have at work).

That being said, just to show how well my new rifle shoots, since I know a couple asked me to post some pics of my targets when I finally go to the range, here it is. Unfortunately, with my being such a novice AR shooter, this is more of a joke because it shows more of how well I shoot, not my rifle. That being said, ill include a little caption above each picture in my defense, so that you understand the circumstances of each target.

Exhibit "A"
This target was shot from a distance of between 25yds-30yds. I do not know exactly how far, so this is an estimate. I used PMC 55gr FMJ, and shot a total of 20 rounds. All rounds were in the standing position, with the M4 stock extended fully. Two rounds went off the paper (high) and I shot Open Sight on a removable carry handle, adjusted to "combat zero" (did I say that right? :confused: )
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/GLPstandard/DCFC0360.jpg


Exhibit "B"
This target was shot from a distance of approximately 10 yds. Once again, this is just an estimate. Same ammunition, with a total of 10 rounds. For this target, I used the laser mounted on the Pentagonlight MD2. It was zero'ed in relation to proper sight alignment at "combat zero" from a distance of approximately 7yds or 8yds, so it may have not even been accurate for the distance I was shooting at. All except a few shots at the end were shot in the standing position, with the M4 stock extended fully. The last 2 or 3 shots were in the kneeling position.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/GLPstandard/DCFC0361-2.jpg


My synopsis? I need a lot of practice. My weapon seems to shoot fine, but these poor groups at such short distances are mainly all me. Never been trained on an AR-15, and as I said, this is my first rifle ever shot, and ive only ever put (after today) 130 rounds down range with one. I didn't take much time to line up each shot. I need to learn to control my breathing, and I noticed that I was anticipating the recoil a lot, which might explain why in the second target theyre a little low. As for the first target? I dont know, maybe I didnt have the proper sight alingment?

Questions, comments, opinions, advice, and anything else are all welcome.

[AMMOTECH]

Try a couple of things first:

1- Mechanical Zero the weapon: Adjust the top of the front sight post to 5mm above the surface of the front sight frame. You can use a small ruler or an index card marked to 5mm. Then adjust the rear sight to 6/3 and use the knob on the right to center the aperture (hole). Ensure that it is on the small one and not the larger 0-2.

2- Use the right target: http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_bm_gear.asp#QP015K Place it 25 meters out. (27 yards) Follow sight adjustment instructions on the target. clicks up/down, left/right as required.

3- Shoot from the bench or use a padded rest of some sort. Adjust the stock so that you can get your nose up close to the charging handle. (Peep thru the sight) Focus on the front sight. Target will a bit fuzzy.

4- Shoot 2-3 rounds at a time till you are sure of the zero.

This will give you a basic 25m military zero.

There are other methods and zeros but this is the basic. I run a 50yard zero as seen here: http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/improvedbattlesightzero.msnw


My big concern is that you are "Duty Qualified" on an AR type weapon but have not been trained?

I use 9" paper plates as my training targets. Place them out at unknown distances out to about 150y and try to keep them about chest high. Your first target looks like some of my 100y targets shot while standing with a 12MOA reflex sight.

[The_Katar]

My synopsis? I need a lot of practice.

You need training first. Then practice what you have been trained on. This will benefit you greatly.

[GLP Standard]

Try a couple of things first:

1- Mechanical Zero the weapon: Adjust the top of the front sight post to 5mm above the surface of the front sight frame. You can use a small ruler or an index card marked to 5mm. Then adjust the rear sight to 6/3 and use the knob on the right to center the aperture (hole). Ensure that it is on the small one and not the larger 0-2.

2- Use the right target: http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_bm_gear.asp#QP015K Place it 25 meters out. (27 yards) Follow sight adjustment instructions on the target. clicks up/down, left/right as required.

3- Shoot from the bench or use a padded rest of some sort. Adjust the stock so that you can get your nose up close to the charging handle. (Peep thru the sight) Focus on the front sight. Target will a bit fuzzy.

4- Shoot 2-3 rounds at a time till you are sure of the zero.

This will give you a basic 25m military zero.

There are other methods and zeros but this is the basic. I run a 50yard zero as seen here: http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/improvedbattlesightzero.msnw


My big concern is that you are "Duty Qualified" on an AR type weapon but have not been trained?

I use 9" paper plates as my training targets. Place them out at unknown distances out to about 150yads and try to keep them about chest high. Your first target looks like some of my 100y targets shot while standing with a 12MOA reflex sight.

Good information. As far as making sure the weapon is zeroed in correctly, I can do that now, but ill have to get a measuring wheel to get some accurate distance measurements and possibly a shooting bench, as well as those targets you recommended before I can move onto step 2. When I say it was set to "combat zero", that is a term a guy at work gave me (ex-army). Not sure if I said it right, or if I even did it right, but basically he said the top of the base of the front post sight should be even with the top of the front post sight mount. For the rear sight, it should be taken all the way down (6/3) which is (0) on mine. Then it should be raised 2 clicks (clockwise from top). Then, with the smaller sight showing, the hash mark in the sight should be in the center of the hash marks on the rear of the sight base.

As far as my "qualification", as long as you can shoot the AR-15 down range at a distance of no more than about 25 yards from random positions (standing, kneeling and prone) and manage to get atleast 40 of your 50 rounds within the black silhouette (sp?) of a B-27 type target, you can "qualify". :eek: You could teach a monkey to do that if you had enough bananas.

[AMMOTECH]

". When I say it was set to "combat zero", that is a term a guy at work gave me (ex-army). Not sure if I said it right, or if I even did it right, but basically he said the top of the base of the front post sight should be even with the top of the front post sight mount. For the rear sight, it should be taken all the way down (6/3) which is (0) on mine. Then it should be raised 2 clicks (clockwise from top). Then, with the smaller sight showing, the hash mark in the sight should be in the center of the hash marks on the rear of the sight base."


This is from the instructions on the target:
Adjust the elevation knob ONE click up from 6/3. Once you have your zero then turn it back down one click to 6/3.
(I have not zeroed like this in a long time so I forgot about that part)

For the front sight it is a safe step just to measure the 5mm vs. eyeball'in it.

I'm going to take a guess that your rifle did not come with a manual...
Here is a basic one you can pick it up when you order the targets: http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_parts_gunsmithing_p2.asp#BFIMANA2OP

[Shihan]

Im going to Ben Avery tomorrow if you need in person help.

[WS6]

Were these shots rapid-fire?

The grouping looks really loose if it was not firing as fast as you could pull the trigger.

My advice would be buy some ammo, concentrate on the basics, take the advice of others above in reguards to sighting in, and just practice practice practice. I went through 5-600rounds of 9mm ammo before I could keep them all on the computer-paper printout targets that I use at 50 yards from my SIG. It just takes time.

[Failure2Stop]

Were these shots rapid-fire?

The grouping looks really loose if it was not firing as fast as you could pull the trigger.

My advice would be buy some ammo, concentrate on the basics, take the advice of others above in reguards to sighting in, and just practice practice practice. I went through 5-600rounds of 9mm ammo before I could keep them all on the computer-paper printout targets that I use at 50 yards from my SIG. It just takes time.

-Stupid comment here.

[RNGRPOPO]

Just keep shooting and things will get better. It does not happen over night zeroing it in.

[Ellery Holt]

Criticizing someone's marksmanship from the opposite side of a monitor is a pretty disappointing thing to do to this guy. He wasn't posting this bragging. I don't really know why he did, but he did say that he needs practice. Leave it at that.

You continually step out of your box when you should be listening and learning. Stay in your box.

His post doesn't sound at all critical to me. He characterizes the pattern, speculates that the firing may have been rather rapid, then encourages practice noting that he himself needed lots of practice. Yet you've jumped all over him for being out-of-line in his post. May I, with all due respect, suggest that he is not the guy who is out-of-line. "Stay in your box" is something one says to a dog, not another human being over whom you have no authority.

[The_Katar]

May I, with all due respect, suggest that he is not the guy who is out-of-line.

+1 what he said.

Failure2Stop, who exactly are you again? Do you think you're a moderator here?

The guy said:
My advice would be buy some ammo, concentrate on the basics, take the advice of others above in reguards to sighting in, and just practice practice practice.

That sounds pretty reasonable from where I'm sitting.

Or maybe I should get back into my box.

:rolleyes:

[WS6]

Criticizing someone's marksmanship from the opposite side of a monitor is a pretty disappointing thing to do to this guy. He wasn't posting this bragging. I don't really know why he did, but he did say that he needs practice. Leave it at that.

You continually step out of your box when you should be listening and learning. Stay in your box.

I was just saying practice would help a lot with his accuracy issues. He wasn't bragging nor was I downing him for anything. We all start somewhere. Sorry if my post was worded confrontationally. It was not intended as such.

and no, I have no desire to get into any internet argument. I am just clarifying my post and purpose lest the OP feel like I was downing him. I was/am not.

I have come on here asking some NOOB! stuff, noone dogged on me for it. I see no reason to dog on him if he can't hit a grape a 25 yards every time.

[Failure2Stop]

+1 what he said.

Failure2Stop, who exactly are you again? Do you think you're a moderator here?

:rolleyes:


I am someone that should know better than to respond this way to someone that is simply trying to learn or share.

Apologies to everyone.

[Kurt Reifert]

Registering here with your real name is perfectly acceptable.

[WS6]

I am still waiting to see what the OP's groups look like after he goes back to the range and fires for accuracy.

Re-read your post and ferreted out that indeed you stated that you were doing rapid/semi-rapid fire.

As I stated before, if those were rapid fire then they arent too bad for only 130 rounds down range, esp. the bottom one.

[Failure2Stop]

As my posts have caused discontent and added nothing to the quality of this thread, I will be heavily editing my posts for the sake of everyone involved.

[WS6]

I am someone that should know better than to respond this way to someone that is simply trying to learn or share.

Apologies to everyone.

Not to clutter your thread any further (sorry OP), but if you are going to apologize publicly, I feel it reasonable to accept it publically. It's all good, peace.

[GLP Standard]

As I stated before, if those were rapid fire then they arent too bad for only 130 rounds down range, esp. the bottom one.

The top one was semi rapid fire. The bottom one I took my time on and lined up my shots. The top one id say I was shooting a round maybe every 3 seconds, the bottom one I was taking maybe 5 seconds between shots. I know I can do much better than this. I noticed that I was anticipating the recoil a lot. Could have just been nervous. I'd actually feel comfortable bragging to a certain extent with a pistol. I know I can get to that point with my AR. Ill post my improvements, and they will come soon.

[WS6]

The top one was semi rapid fire. The bottom one I took my time on and lined up my shots. The top one id say I was shooting a round maybe every 3 seconds, the bottom one I was taking maybe 5 seconds between shots. I know I can do much better than this. I noticed that I was anticipating the recoil a lot. Could have just been nervous. I'd actually feel comfortable bragging to a certain extent with a pistol. I know I can get to that point with my AR. Ill post my improvements, and they will come soon.

It's all about practice. Even on the same day sometimes it will take me 50 rounds for my groups with a pistol to calm down and everything happen the way it should.

In 500-1000 rounds I bet lining up your shots you are going to be chewing the red dot up pretty bad at 25 yards.

One thing that will help a lot is dry-firing the weapon and maintianing a steady/good sight picture. An AR15 will not be hurt by dry-firing UNLESS! you do it with the upper off the lower. If it still bothers you, buy some snap caps. That will also smooth out your trigger pull.

What always worked for me was this:

Get a rough sight picture.

Breath deep.

Let the breath out to the point of natural resistance (my term for when you would have to actively force air out).

Hold your breath (but for not longer than 8 seconds, if you haven't taken the shot by then, relax, take few breaths, set up again.

Time the shot between heartbeats (this works mainly with a high-power scope, so you may wish to disreguard, but it IS good practice).

Squeeze the trigger but don't yank it, make sure you have even contact with your trigger finger lest you be pulling the weapon to one side or pushing to the other (dry firing practice will show you).

^Again, just my advice and I bet there are others here who can correct/enhance that.

Above all, get out and do some shootin'!

[AMMOTECH]

A little range time this morning....
9" paper at 50y; 20+ shots w/1 mag change shot from over barricade with a small sand bag between barricade and rifle. semi rapid-as quick as I could get the triangle back on the paper. With a 12MOA sight it covers a good deal of the plate at that distance.
Ammo was 80's South African 5.56 M193

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/AMMOTECH/STA75286.jpg

-I only train to make hits on the plate, I'm not out to make all the hits MOA or touch each other or anything like that. If I can hit the plates at different distances using different positions then I'm good with that.
YMMV

[GLP Standard]

While we're on this topic, I have to ask. What point should I need to get to before I can start feeling comfortable with my shooting? In other words, how small of a group should I be hitting at different yards, say, 10, 25, 50 and 100 with open sights? Supported? Unsupported? Rapid fire? Lining up my shots and taking my time? I hear of people shooting 1" groups at 100 yards. Is this likely? Is this something I should shoot for? (no pun intended)

[AMMOTECH]

While we're on this topic, I have to ask. What point should I need to get to before I can start feeling comfortable with my shooting? In other words, how small of a group should I be hitting at different yards, say, 10, 25, 50 and 100 with open sights? Supported? Unsupported? Rapid fire? Lining up my shots and taking my time? I hear of people shooting 1" groups at 100 yards. Is this likely? Is this something I should shoot for? (no pun intended)

You need to ask yourself what kind of shooting task you want to use this weapon for?
-Self defense is a whole different mindset then target shooting. It looks like the carbine that you have is set-up more as a fighting weapon then a bench gun.
-Bench rest; I get board just sitting and punching the center out of a target. Small tight groups work the best I guess. I've got a 20" A2 for this and it just stays in the safe.
- Action 3 gun type shooting... I'd love to learn more about and give it try.

On the comfort question; I think a lot will have to do with time spent behind the trigger in different situations. Learning to run the weapon will go a long way in making you feel more confident in your shooting.

[Failure2Stop]

One of the best ways to grow as a shooter is to shoot with people that are better than you.

If you shoot by yourself all the time, you are always the best and worst shooter on the range. Not much room for growth.

Shooting with other people in the style of your choosing will provide you with a referance point. I make it a habit to use a shot timer during training. The timer don't lie.

[WS6]

While we're on this topic, I have to ask. What point should I need to get to before I can start feeling comfortable with my shooting? In other words, how small of a group should I be hitting at different yards, say, 10, 25, 50 and 100 with open sights? Supported? Unsupported? Rapid fire? Lining up my shots and taking my time? I hear of people shooting 1" groups at 100 yards. Is this likely? Is this something I should shoot for? (no pun intended)

Like stated before, it really depends on what you are doing. 1/2" groups and a benchrest competition won't get you the time of day. 1/2" groups in a 3-gun type competition at ANY range will make you a legend.

In short, if you are using this weapon for fun, then go for the best you can do. The gun itself is capable of 1-2.5MOA with decent "cheap" ammo. Try to get there. If you can't do a 2" group all contorted around, prone, with one leg draped over a stump shooting at 100m, its all good, but try for it and then accept what you get and strive to do better.

If you are using this weapon purely for self defence, then if you can keep them on a 9" paper plate like the poster at the bottom of the 1st page, ur G2G (unless you are a SWAT tactical marksman, but a carbine AR isnt really what they use, so I assume that is not the case here).

Whatever you do, don't get so caught up doing it that you don't have fun. I used to shoot with a guy who if he couldn't drill out the X he got all upset. Went through 3 handguns in less than that many months because "They didn't work for him" (G32, HKUSP, now a G17). He had a bad time almost every range visit. Don't take it to that extreme. Just have fun and always strive to do better.

[GLP Standard]

I'm not so concerned about being able to shoot a 1" group at 1939013 yards (that was sarcastic of course). Of course I wouldn't mind being able to shoot a tight group (id be happy with a 3" group at 100 yards from the prone position), but Im more interested in the self defense aspect of it all. When I start getting better, and I make some more target stands, and buy a nice safariland tactical holster for my XD or a MOLLE vest, I want to make up tactical scenarios that integrate switching between Rifle and Sidearm, reloading, dropping to one knee, going prone, shooting while moving, using cover and concealment...etc. I think I probably want to start 50 yards from the target/s, and move closer while being timed, stopping at different points to shoot assigned targets for an assigned amount of rounds in an assigned position (etc), finally finishing at around 5-10 yards, more than likely with a sidearm.

[SSGN_Doc]

If you are working on tactical/practical type shooting then start out with acheiveable exercises and work your way up.

If you can keep your first shot inside of a 5" circle at 50 yds within 1-2 seconds of shouldering the weapon in the standing (offhand) position, you are doing alright.

Take some air filled water balloons to the range, and put them at 50 yds. Since they are air filled they will dance around a bit if there is a breeze. Blown up they should be between 4-6" in diameter. They are cheap, and you know when you hit them. Just clean up your mess when you're done, so the range won't look like a dump.

Get a good stance and bring the rifle to the shoulder and shoot one shot as soon as you have a good sight picture. See how many times it takes you to shoulder the weapon and fire a single shot before you are consistantly hitting the balloons. Then move the balloons out to 75 yds, then 100.

The idea is to get accurate first shot speed, and build muscle memory.

Then move ballons back to 50 yds and try hitting two ballons with two shots only. Then try different targets of a similar size and try double tapping a single target.

[GLP Standard]

If you are working on tactical/practical type shooting then start out with acheiveable exercises and work your way up.

If you can keep your first shot inside of a 5" circle at 50 yds within 1-2 seconds of shouldering the weapon in the standing (offhand) position, you are doing alright.

Take some air filled water balloons to the range, and put them at 50 yds. Since they are air filled they will dance around a bit if there is a breeze. Blown up they should be between 4-6" in diameter. They are cheap, and you know when you hit them. Just clean up your mess when you're done, so the range won't look like a dump.

Get a good stance and bring the rifle to the shoulder and shoot one shot as soon as you have a good sight picture. See how many times it takes you to shoulder the weapon and fire a single shot before you are consistantly hitting the balloons. Then move the balloons out to 75 yds, then 100.

The idea is to get accurate first shot speed, and build muscle memory.

Then move ballons back to 50 yds and try hitting two ballons with two shots only. Then try different targets of a similar size and try double tapping a single target.

Good advice. Never thought of using balloons. Ill definately give that a try. I need to get a measuring wheel to be honest so I can measure out some accurate yardage.

As for cleaning up my mess, I don't think my range could be any more cluttered. You can tell that hundreds of people have been out there shooting. Ive thought about cleaning it up too, because it really is a nice place to shoot, but thats A LOT of work, and it would just get messed up again because of all the idiots that go out there.

[SSGN_Doc]

The range I go to a lot is a public range and it gets trashed all the time also. I usually will spend an extra half hour or so when I am done shooting just cleaning up one part of it with the idea of at least leaving it cleaner than I found it.

I figure if the range gets trashed too often, the rangers will just shut it down.