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SuicideHz
08-16-06, 14:05
I'm going to be buying a new buffer and spring for my midlength. Which buffer would be best? G&R has an H2 for $27 or an H3 for $35. They have an "LMT Heavy" for $19. I've read that 9mm buffers work well in midlengths but how about any of these others?

Thanks,

Joe

Robb Jensen
08-16-06, 14:54
A standard H buffer will work well.

VA_Dinger
08-16-06, 15:00
Assuming this is a 16" mid-length the "H" should be more than enough.

C4IGrant
08-16-06, 15:07
I'm going to be buying a new buffer and spring for my midlength. Which buffer would be best? G&R has an H2 for $27 or an H3 for $35. They have an "LMT Heavy" for $19. I've read that 9mm buffers work well in midlengths but how about any of these others?

Thanks,

Joe


Joe, I personally run an H2 in my middy's and run H3's in my carbines. The reason is that the pressure on the carbine gas system is much stronger than the middy gas sytems. I also run ISMI springs (which improve felt recoil as well).

As you know, car, H, H2 and H3 will all run in carbine or middy gas systems. I do think the heavier buffer improves reliability and decrease muzzle flip.


C4

SuicideHz
08-16-06, 15:26
Thanks guys. Dinger's response is the type I was looking for- I wanted to know when it was too much...

So an LMT Heavy as opposed to a CMT H2?

ETA: I knew the reasoning for heavier and mid versus car, but didn't know how far to take the "heavier is better" theory.

JLM
08-16-06, 15:58
Joe, I personally run an H2 in my middy's and run H3's in my carbines. The reason is that the pressure on the carbine gas system is much stronger than the middy gas sytems. I also run ISMI springs (which improve felt recoil as well).

As you know, car, H, H2 and H3 will all run in carbine or middy gas systems. I do think the heavier buffer improves reliability and decrease muzzle flip.


C4

H3's even on 16" barrel's?

C4IGrant
08-16-06, 16:18
H3's even on 16" barrel's?


Yep (as long as it has a carbine gas system).


C4

SuicideHz
08-16-06, 16:20
HUH? JLM is questioning your statement that they run in middy systems.

"As you know, car, H, H2 and H3 will all run in carbine or middy gas systems."

Check your IMs too...

C4IGrant
08-16-06, 16:39
HUH? JLM is questioning your statement that they run in middy systems.

"As you know, car, H, H2 and H3 will all run in carbine or middy gas systems."

Check your IMs too...

Sorry, misunderstood. Yes, you can run an H3 in a mid-length gas system, but I would not.

The setup I listed above is what I run in Carbine classes so I know it works very well.


C4

TacDoc
08-16-06, 17:35
Yep (as long as it has a carbine gas system).


C4

And if I'm running a M16 bolt carrier, what you recommend H2 or H3?

C4IGrant
08-16-06, 17:41
And if I'm running a M16 bolt carrier, what you recommend H2 or H3?


I only run M16 carriers so my opinion stays the same.


C4

TacDoc
08-17-06, 18:01
I only run M16 carriers so my opinion stays the same.


C4

One more question, if the H3 and 9mm buffers weight almost the same, what are the advantages of the H3? There are other differences between this two exept that the H3 its aluminum and 9mm its steel?

C4IGrant
08-17-06, 18:15
One more question, if the H3 and 9mm buffers weight almost the same, what are the advantages of the H3? There are other differences between this two exept that the H3 its aluminum and 9mm its steel?

The Military Spec states that the buffer body has to have three chambers in it. The purpose of this is to keep the weights inline. 9mm buffers do not follow this req and is usually the reason why they are cheaper.


C4

Robb Jensen
08-17-06, 19:12
The head portion of the 9mm buffer (part that contacts the carrier) also moves (I'm not sure why but it does) and it's body is made of carbon steel. An H3 buffer by outward appearances functions and looks just like a CAR, H and H2 carrier where the body is one solid piece.

QuietShootr
08-22-06, 09:58
A Colt 9mm buffer is one piece, it's only the RRA or other aftermarket units that have the pinned-on movable head.

LukeMacGillie
08-24-06, 09:31
Bumping this back up,

The H2 and H3 buffers, do they have NSNs and or Colt Parts Numbers?

Convinced the PTB's to do a test using heavier buffers to see if it will lower our bolt shear problems, but only if the buffers have either NSN's or PN's from Colt.

9mm buffer is not an option, must be buffers made for the M4

C4IGrant
08-24-06, 09:40
Bumping this back up,

The H2 and H3 buffers, do they have NSNs and or Colt Parts Numbers?

Convinced the PTB's to do a test using heavier buffers to see if it will lower our bolt shear problems, but only if the buffers have either NSN's or PN's from Colt.

9mm buffer is not an option, must be buffers made for the M4


Colt ships all their weapons with H2's now so getting a PN from them shouldn't be hard. I do not know about the H3.


C4

M193 BALL
08-24-06, 09:41
I order a Rock River 9mm buffer
It Has NO SCREWSS whatso ever
its black with a green Plastic buffer at the end? I dont know how many weights it has inside? And it dont look like the buffer in the RRA catalog

Anyway I put the 9mm buffer in my LMT Defender 2000 with SOPMOD
The M4 runs great useing several types of ammo M193,M855.MK262,BH77,BH75,etc! It does seem to work

But on the other hand my Bushmaster/VLTOR runs a H buffer and runs great also

M193 BALL
08-24-06, 09:44
A Colt 9mm buffer is one piece, it's only the RRA or other aftermarket units that have the pinned-on movable head.


I wonder if RRA has changed?
Mine is one piece

TigerStripe
08-24-06, 13:26
Bumping this back up,

The H2 and H3 buffers, do they have NSNs and or Colt Parts Numbers?

Convinced the PTB's to do a test using heavier buffers to see if it will lower our bolt shear problems, but only if the buffers have either NSN's or PN's from Colt.

9mm buffer is not an option, must be buffers made for the M4

I'm pretty sure that the H3 is a Colt product. There should be a Colt part number for them.

TS

Kisara
08-24-06, 16:19
One more question, if the H3 and 9mm buffers weight almost the same, what are the advantages of the H3?
When you shake a regular buffer, you will hear/feel the weights inside. My Colt 9mm's buffer feels solid. You hear and feel nothing.

In Colt Armorer's class, you will learn that those loose weights inside the buffer are there for a reason. When the bolt carrier and buffer are starting to move forward, the weights inside the buffer slide towards the rear due to inertia. When the bolt hits the barrel extension and starts to lock up, the loose weights inside the buffer slam forward, helping give an extra kick to ensure the bolt seats properly. You do not get that extra reliability benefit in the 5.56 when using a solid 9mm buffer.

The SAW Sales reliability package includes a H buffer with heavier buffer weights, but I forgot what Tina said the exact weight was.

dewatters
08-25-06, 00:00
The H2 and H3 buffers, do they have NSNs and or Colt Parts Numbers?

FYI: I believe that the H2 buffer's mil info is as follows -

Recoil Buffer Assembly - NSN #1005-01-505-1036

M193 BALL
08-25-06, 13:59
DID Rock River change there 9mm buffer?
Mine has weights inside? and has No screws, and the outside is one piece

Griz
08-25-06, 16:13
In Colt Armorer's class, you will learn that those loose weights inside the buffer are there for a reason. When the bolt carrier and buffer are starting to move forward, the weights inside the buffer slide towards the rear due to inertia. When the bolt hits the barrel extension and starts to lock up, the loose weights inside the buffer slam forward, helping give an extra kick to ensure the bolt seats properly. You do not get that extra reliability benefit in the 5.56 when using a solid 9mm buffer.

That feature is actually there for full-auto use. It acts as a dead-blow device to prevent bolt-carrier bounce.

persona non grata
08-28-06, 00:14
DID Rock River change there 9mm buffer?
Mine has weights inside? and has No screws, and the outside is one piece

I've never seen a RRA 9mm buffer that had internal weights. Always a 2-piece designm with the 'head' attached to the 'body' via roll pin. Some have a hard plastic (Delrin?) bumper, and some have a soft rubber (Polyurethane?) bumper, but that is the only variation I have seen in several hundred buffers.

JLM
08-28-06, 01:08
The SAW Sales reliability package includes a H buffer with heavier buffer weights

So, in other words, the weight is customized? That's interesting. I wonder if its somewhere between H and H2 or what. Hrm....

M193 BALL
08-29-06, 13:36
I've never seen a RRA 9mm buffer that had internal weights. Always a 2-piece designm with the 'head' attached to the 'body' via roll pin. Some have a hard plastic (Delrin?) bumper, and some have a soft rubber (Polyurethane?) bumper, but that is the only variation I have seen in several hundred buffers.


I order mine a few months ago from Rock River

Its all one piece
NO screws( like there old one)
has wieghts in the inside
Has a Green Plastic rubber at the end like most all buffers


Its looks just like my H bufferthats came with my VLTOR buthas a Black Finish


Its Cheaper than Buying the H3 buffer


I put the New RRA 9mm Buffer in my NEW LMT DEFENDER 2000 with There14.5 M4 upper!

Allthough I was Skeptical about the 9mm buffer

It made my LMT M4 run super smooth and works great

Runs well with 223 loads /BLACK HILLS Blue box 77gr and 75gr
as well as MK262,M193,M855

So you guys should try out RRA NEW 9mm Buffer Cheaper and works awesome
But I dont think its as heavy as the H3 but Very close

QuietShootr
09-02-06, 11:20
When you shake a regular buffer, you will hear/feel the weights inside. My Colt 9mm's buffer feels solid. You hear and feel nothing.

In Colt Armorer's class, you will learn that those loose weights inside the buffer are there for a reason. When the bolt carrier and buffer are starting to move forward, the weights inside the buffer slide towards the rear due to inertia. When the bolt hits the barrel extension and starts to lock up, the loose weights inside the buffer slam forward, helping give an extra kick to ensure the bolt seats properly. You do not get that extra reliability benefit in the 5.56 when using a solid 9mm buffer.

The SAW Sales reliability package includes a H buffer with heavier buffer weights, but I forgot what Tina said the exact weight was.

The three Colt 9mm buffers I got from SAW have weights inside them. They look like the standard carbine buffer other than having a steel body.

Ren
09-12-06, 16:07
Joe, I personally run an H2 in my middy's and run H3's in my carbines. The reason is that the pressure on the carbine gas system is much stronger than the middy gas sytems. I also run ISMI springs (which improve felt recoil as well).

As you know, car, H, H2 and H3 will all run in carbine or middy gas systems. I do think the heavier buffer improves reliability and decrease muzzle flip.


C4


Grant, is that with hotter 5.56 loads? Will it still run reliably with AE .223 or BH .223 75gr?

C4IGrant
09-12-06, 16:15
Grant, is that with hotter 5.56 loads? Will it still run reliably with AE .223 or BH .223 75gr?


I generally only shoot M855, MK262 or TAP (75gr). I do however buy white box Winchester for reliability checks in the guns I build and they work fine.


C4

SHIVAN
09-12-06, 16:34
What is the raw weight of the Endine buffer? Can someone post the chart of weights for the buffers?

Robb Jensen
09-21-06, 19:26
What is the raw weight of the Endine buffer? Can someone post the chart of weights for the buffers?


IIRC it's the same as an H buffer.

harleytech
10-02-06, 17:12
Hi guy's, I noticed on my Colt H Buffer the Face is getting banged
up by the bolt carrier. It has indentations from the Carrier. Time to get a new one or is this normal ? Maybe a H2 ? It's a Colt 6400c w/ 14.5 LE6921 Barrel w/perm Att. FH. Thanks...:D

persona non grata
10-02-06, 18:25
Normal

harleytech
10-02-06, 18:39
:cool: Cool, That's what I thought...:confused:

Robb Jensen
10-03-06, 05:29
Hi guy's, I noticed on my Colt H Buffer the Face is getting banged
up by the bolt carrier. It has indentations from the Carrier. Time to get a new one or is this normal ? Maybe a H2 ? It's a Colt 6400c w/ 14.5 LE6921 Barrel w/perm Att. FH. Thanks...:D

It's normal but usually caused by an uneven finish or burr on the back of the carrier where it touches the buffer. If you smooth that area of the carrier out with 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper you can control the damage to the buffer.

harleytech
10-03-06, 07:10
Thanks, I'll do that....:cool:

TigerStripe
10-03-06, 10:03
Thanks, I'll do that....:cool:

Polish the bolt carrier like GM4 said and put a 9mm or H3 buffer in it.


TS

Mr223
10-08-06, 09:46
Joe,
Grant Is The Guy That Will Not Lead You Wrong As He Has Set Me Up With The Right Combination For My Guns. I Run H2 Buffers In My Two RRA Mid-length With Ismi Springs And Run H3 Buffers And Ismi Springs In My 10.5" Carbine With My Vltor Mur-1 With The Noveske Barrel And My 16" Lmt/GG&G Carbine And They Run Like Horses And Have Never Had A "failure To Feed" Or "failure To Eject" And I Run Lake City 55gr Fmj And Federal American Eagle 223 55 Gr Fmj. It Slows The Bolt Down And There Is Way Less Recoil And It Lays The Brass In A Nice Little Group At About 4:00 O'clock On The Ground. This Takes The Beating Off The Rifle And Less Recoil For The Shooter Which Means Faster Second Shots And So On. In All My Years Of Shooting I Have Never Had A Problem With Feeding Or Ejection On Any Of My Ar's With These Set-ups And The Gooood Ammo(no Junk).
Bryan

Mr223
10-08-06, 09:48
Message Was Set Twice

Mr223
10-08-06, 17:20
[QUOTE=Mr223]Joe,
Grant Is The Guy That Will Not Lead You Wrong As He Has Set Me Up With The Right Combination For My Guns. I Run H2 Buffers In My Two RRA Mid-length With Ismi Springs And Run H3 Buffers And Ismi Springs In My 10.5" Carbine With My Vltor Mur-1 With The Noveske Barrel And My 16" Lmt/gg&g Carbine And They Run Like Horses And Have Never Had A "failure To Feed" Or "failure To Eject" And I Run Lake City 55gr Fmj And Federal American Eagle 223 55 Gr Fmj. It Slows The Bolt Down And There Is Way Less Recoil And It Lays The Brass In A Nice Little Group At About 4:00 O'clock On The Ground. This Takes The Beating Off The Rifle And Less Recoil For The Shooter Which Means Faster Second Shots And So On. In All My Years Of Shooting I Have Never Had A Problem With Feeding Or Ejection On Any Of My Ar's With These Set-ups And The Gooood Ammo(no Junk).
Bryan

Glockster35
12-15-06, 12:31
All,

There is a lot of discussion here, and several different opinions going on. What I have gathered from the discussion is the following:

For a simple carbine with 14.5-16 inch barrel, you would recommend an H2 with CS spring.

I am using a M16 carrier, but I do not have a buffer or spring yet, so your advice is important to me.

Other than getting a MPI bolt, are there any other suggestions this group would have for me?

C4IGrant
12-15-06, 17:18
All,

There is a lot of discussion here, and several different opinions going on. What I have gathered from the discussion is the following:

For a simple carbine with 14.5-16 inch barrel, you would recommend an H2 with CS spring.

I am using a M16 carrier, but I do not have a buffer or spring yet, so your advice is important to me.

Other than getting a MPI bolt, are there any other suggestions this group would have for me?

H2 and CS spring is just fine for your weapon.

On the bolt, I would make sure it has a black insert and possibly a Crane O-Ring.


C4

mark5pt56
12-15-06, 20:03
I have a 9mm buffer in my LMT 10.5, it runs 100%, it has the o ring and blk insert, actually had a standard extrctor set up in the beginning and was fine as well. I also had a 9mm buffer in my Sabre middy, it was 100% to, I put it in my son's BC M4 to improve felt recoil(9 yrs old).

Glockster35
12-15-06, 23:55
Grant,

Order placed, how long do you think it will take to arrive to 27534?

C4IGrant
12-16-06, 09:05
I have a 9mm buffer in my LMT 10.5, it runs 100%, it has the o ring and blk insert, actually had a standard extrctor set up in the beginning and was fine as well. I also had a 9mm buffer in my Sabre middy, it was 100% to, I put it in my son's BC M4 to improve felt recoil(9 yrs old).


Hey Mark, as you know, the 9mm buffers are the same weight as the H3 buffers. The H3 buffers are generally more money however than the 9MM buffers. The reason is that the H3 buffers have spacers that keep the internal weights going the same direction. The 9mm buffers do not. So if you start to get any kind of timing problems, this might be the cause (just an FYI).




C4

C4IGrant
12-16-06, 09:05
Grant,

Order placed, how long do you think it will take to arrive to 27534?

2-3 days I am guessing.



C4

VA_Dinger
12-16-06, 09:36
I've had great luck running an H2 buffer in my 10.5". It has at least seven thousand rounds through it and the only problems I've experienced were ammo or mag related. Even those problems have been very rare. The combo has proven itself to me.

- LMT M16 carrier w/ standard LMT bolt.
- Wolf HD extractor spring
- Black insert
- CRANE o-ring
- LMT H2 buffer
- ISMI buffer spring but that has been a recent addition.

C4IGrant
12-16-06, 10:35
I've had great luck running an H2 buffer in my 10.5". It has at least seven thousand rounds through it and the only problems I've experienced were ammo or mag related. Even those problems have been very rare. The combo has proven itself to me.

- LMT M16 carrier w/ standard LMT bolt.
- Wolf HD extractor spring
- Black insert
- CRANE o-ring
- LMT H2 buffer
- ISMI buffer spring but that has been a recent addition.

Lies, all lies! :D I run the same setup, but just use an H3.


C4

mark5pt56
12-16-06, 13:10
Grant, Thanks! As the stash permits, I plan to add the heavier buffers in my carbines. I had the 9mm ones as left overs from the 9mm upper and just haven't got any others. If the H3's are overall better, I'll just get those.

Before I put the 9mm in my 10.5, the standard one ran fine. But, it doesn't hurt to lesson the wear and tear by adding key parts!

On a side note, when are you adding the Sabre uppers?

Mark

C4IGrant
12-16-06, 13:15
Grant, Thanks! As the stash permits, I plan to add the heavier buffers in my carbines. I had the 9mm ones as left overs from the 9mm upper and just haven't got any others. If the H3's are overall better, I'll just get those.

Before I put the 9mm in my 10.5, the standard one ran fine. But, it doesn't hurt to lesson the wear and tear by adding key parts!

On a side note, when are you adding the Sabre uppers?

Mark

Glad I could help.

I have spec'd out Sabre uppers and complete weapons which are different from what they normally make so it is taking me awhile longer to get what I want.

I hope to have uppers and complete weapon in a couple weeks.


C4

mark5pt56
12-16-06, 13:54
Grant, Sounds good, I plan to get a plain jane one and stock pile parts. Any info on the specs?:cool:

Mark

C4IGrant
12-16-06, 14:16
Grant, Sounds good, I plan to get a plain jane one and stock pile parts. Any info on the specs?:cool:

Mark

Complete weapons will have the following:

M4 Barrel extension
M4 flattop receiver
M16 BCG (properly staked with black insert and Crane O-Ring)
Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
H buffer
ISMI CS Spring

A lot of these items are small, but no other company builds complete weapons to these specs (not even Colt).

I will also offer a variety of triggers, rails, stock, etc, etc on them.


C4

mark5pt56
12-16-06, 14:34
Complete weapons will have the following:

M4 Barrel extension
M4 flattop receiver
M16 BCG (properly staked with black insert and Crane O-Ring)
Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
H buffer
ISMI CS Spring

A lot of these items are small, but no other company builds complete weapons to these specs (not even Colt).

I will also offer a variety of triggers, rails, stock, etc, etc on them.


C4

Advise when a complete upper is available, full fsb and standard hg's-the stash is growing mold!

C4IGrant
12-16-06, 14:36
Advise when a complete upper is available, full fsb and standard hg's-the stash is growing mold!


They will come with F marked FSB and HG's. :D



C4

JohnN
12-16-06, 23:25
Has anyone found ammunition to be a variable in reliability when using an ISMI buffer spring? I am using a 10.5" LMT upper with a H3 buffer and ISMI spring, when using Winchester white box or South African ammo it turns into a single shot. Change the spring out with a stock part and it works perfectly. Unfortunately, I didn't have any hotter ammo with me to try out.

VA_Dinger
12-16-06, 23:39
Has anyone found ammunition to be a variable in reliability when using an ISMI buffer spring? I am using a 10.5" LMT upper with a H3 buffer and ISMI spring, when using Winchester white box or South African ammo it turns into a single shot. Change the spring out with a stock part and it works perfectly. Unfortunately, I didn't have any hotter ammo with me to try out.

It does not surprise me.

10.5”-11.5” AR's are hands down more finicky to ammo, lubrication, set-up, and end user maintenance problems. That being said, they can be very reliable for a "Switched On" end user.

How well lubricated is the weapon? Have you tried it yet with other ammo? How many rounds the weapon fired?

FYI- I've had great luck with my ISMI spring.

JohnN
12-17-06, 01:41
It does not surprise me.

10.5-11.5 AR's are hands down more finicky to ammo, lubrication, set-up, and end user maintenance problems. That being said, they can be very reliable for a "Switched On" end user.

How well lubricated is the weapon? Have you tried it yet with other ammo? How many rounds the weapon fired?

FYI- I've had great luck with my ISMI spring.

This is a new upper with less than 100 rds thru it. Haven't used any other ammo yet and lubrication was on the wet side. Haven't shot enough ammo yet to make any real observations just wondered if anyone had a similar experience.

Harv
12-17-06, 02:45
I may be the sole voice of dissension.. but I ran a standard weight Buffer for well over 12 years in a 16" HBAR Carbine with well over 14K and never had a problem or felt the need to change to a heavier buffer. Heres what it looks like.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/harv24/IMG_1212.jpg

When I finally picked up a new Upper and lower it came with a H buffer. To be honest. After a few hundred rds... I can not tell any difference. and because I switched from a 16" HBAR to a 14.5" M4 profile.. The muzzle jump and recoil feel a little more severe due to the loss of the extra barrel weight I'm sure.

So, I can't say as I'm sold on the heavier buffers for the 16" and 14.5" carbines. I know the shorter SBRS seem to run better with them. Just my take on it.

Robb Jensen
12-17-06, 09:51
In my carbines I have the following:

16" middy 3-gun AR = standard CAR buffer
16" Colt .625 bbl = H buffer
10.3" LMT SBR = H3 buffer
13.7" Noveske = H2 buffer
both 11.5" SBRs = CAR Enidines

All have ISMI chrome silicon buffer springs (except for my 3gun AR) and all work 100%. My 3-gun rifle now has a standard spring and CAR buffer because I want it to cycle very fast and recoil flat. I run a Colt unshrouded 1/2 circle carrier in this gun and with it's light weight and a AK Concepts DNTC Comp (muzzle brake) it doesn't recoil hard at all. I was running a rifle length buffer and an ACE stock but I'm finding the stock too long so I just installed a Sully stock on it. I wish the coyote brown ones were available so it would match my Gucci 3-gun rifle. ;)

C4IGrant
12-17-06, 13:56
I may be the sole voice of dissension.. but I ran a standard weight Buffer for well over 12 years in a 16" HBAR Carbine with well over 14K and never had a problem or felt the need to change to a heavier buffer. Heres what it looks like.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/harv24/IMG_1212.jpg

When I finally picked up a new Upper and lower it came with a H buffer. To be honest. After a few hundred rds... I can not tell any difference. and because I switched from a 16" HBAR to a 14.5" M4 profile.. The muzzle jump and recoil feel a little more severe due to the loss of the extra barrel weight I'm sure.

So, I can't say as I'm sold on the heavier buffers for the 16" and 14.5" carbines. I know the shorter SBRS seem to run better with them. Just my take on it.


Going from an HBAR to a lighter weapon, you most likely wouldn't notice a difference. If you have only shot a 14.5 with a carbine buffer and then went to an H or H2 then you would feel the difference for sure.

AR's will run just fine with a carbine buffer. What you gain with a heavier buffer (like an H2) is less felt recoil, faster follow up shots and a more reliable weapon (increased lock time).

I believe all current issued M4's come with an H2 buffer. I have also been seeing 6920's with H2 as well.



C4

Harv
12-17-06, 19:39
I may have to get me a H2 Buffer and see for my self.

UPSguy
12-18-06, 12:58
Is there a way to recognize H, H2 and H3 buffers visually?

Robb Jensen
12-18-06, 13:04
Is there a way to recognize H, H2 and H3 buffers visually?


I have CMT buffers and they look like this.
H are stamped H on the face of the buffer, H2 are stamped H2 and H3s aren't stamped.

UPSguy
12-18-06, 13:13
There are no markings on the face of mine. Does anyone know what buffer the Vltor kits come with?

Robb Jensen
12-18-06, 13:46
There are no markings on the face of mine. Does anyone know what buffer the Vltor kits come with?

Standard CAR buffer, it's lighter than all 3 types of H buffers.

C4IGrant
12-18-06, 13:50
There are no markings on the face of mine. Does anyone know what buffer the Vltor kits come with?


VLTOR ships all their kits with carbine buffers and they are generall never marked.



C4

UPSguy
12-18-06, 13:53
Thanks for the response.

Dan GSR
01-02-07, 12:08
wouldn't using a ISMI buffer spring, also cause the BCG to spring forward with more force? be bad?

C4IGrant
01-02-07, 12:37
wouldn't using a ISMI buffer spring, also cause the BCG to spring forward with more force? be bad?


People often think that ISMI springs are extra power springs, but they are not. They are simply a better quality spring.




C4

Dan GSR
01-02-07, 13:44
then how is it ppl claim they feel less recoil with it?

C4IGrant
01-02-07, 13:49
then how is it ppl claim they feel less recoil with it?


They are used to cheap $5 springs. After using one of those (that is usually worn out) anything feels better.

The biggest difference with a quality CS spring VS a cheap SS spring is endurance. The CS spring will hold its length for much longer, giving you a more reliable weapon.



C4

Dan GSR
01-04-07, 19:35
how would you guys compare the H2 & H3 buffers to the enidine hydraulic buffer ?

C4IGrant
01-04-07, 20:56
how would you guys compare the H2 & H3 buffers to the enidine hydraulic buffer ?


The Enidine is a carbine weight buffer (so it lacks the mass of an H2 or H3). I don't think it reduces felt recoil, but does make recoil feel smother.

The Enidine buffers really shine with FA weapons though as they reduce the cyclic rate.




C4

RAM Engineer
01-05-07, 15:09
all,

Thanks for a very useful thread. I propose that it be "sticky-ed" at the top of the forum.

J

cav_scout_tj
02-18-08, 12:30
Since some H buffers are unmarked, a scale will reveal the truth:


Car std3.0oz
Car H<td>3.8oz
Car H2<td>4.6oz
Car H3<td>5.4oz
RRA 9mm<td>5.6oz

cav_scout_tj
02-18-08, 12:30
Since some H buffers are unmarked and the could be confused, a scale will reveal the truth:


Car std 3.0oz
Car H 3.8oz
Car H2 4.6oz
Car H3 5.4oz
RRA 9mm 5.6oz

C4IGrant
02-18-08, 13:05
Since some H buffers are unmarked and the could be confused, a scale will reveal the truth:


Car std 3.0oz
Car H 3.8oz
Car H2 4.6oz
Car H3 5.4oz
RRA 9mm 5.6oz


I have never seen an unmarked H buffer. Which company uses un-marked H buffers??


C4

m700m
02-18-08, 15:45
i hope that it would be OK to jump in and add question on suisideHz's dime. i have a new CAR copy w/11.5 and faux 5.5. it is the the only AR that really dents brass to any extent. i am guessing it is over gassed. it has a standard carbine buffer
, and i wonder if only an H buffer would be enough, so as not to choke up w/saami ammunition? tnx. Don...........:confused:

C4IGrant
02-18-08, 17:27
i hope that it would be OK to jump in and add question on suisideHz's dime. i have a new CAR copy w/11.5 and faux 5.5. it is the the only AR that really dents brass to any extent. i am guessing it is over gassed. it has a standard carbine buffer
, and i wonder if only an H buffer would be enough, so as not to choke up w/saami ammunition? tnx. Don...........:confused:


I would try an H or H2 and see what you get.


C4

m700m
02-18-08, 17:52
tnx C4, i will do just that, as only intend to use this rifle for rang trigger time with saami. :) Don........

M193 BALL
02-19-08, 06:34
I may have to get me a H2 Buffer and see for my self.



like you I used regular buffer for years
I cant tell any difference with my H buffer

After YEARS of HEARING about the 9mm buffer
I bought one
RRA SECOND type 9mm buffer 25bucks

Slap it in my 14.5 Defender 2000 M4

The Barrel DOESNT JUMP OFF MY RANGE BAG LIKE IT USE TO

Compared to me Back Up Bushmaster/LMT 14.5 with H buffer

I CAN TELL A HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!
Its TRUE its does work nice!

My Brass also shoots out the same distance as it did with the regular buffer
runs good great ZERO Hic Ups


I use to Laugh about puting 9mm buffers in a M4/carbeaner
Mr Wilson was RIGHT !


AKA FMJ

M193 BALL
02-19-08, 06:36
VLTOR ships all their kits with carbine buffers and they are generall never marked.



C4


My VLTOR came with H marked buffer and a SUPER STRONG Coil spring
Bought from BRAVOCOMPANY few years back

M193 BALL
02-19-08, 06:52
I have a 9mm buffer in my LMT 10.5, it runs 100%, it has the o ring and blk insert, actually had a standard extrctor set up in the beginning and was fine as well. I also had a 9mm buffer in my Sabre middy, it was 100% to, I put it in my son's BC M4 to improve felt recoil(9 yrs old).



I have the SECOND MODEL 9mm Buffer from RRA
HAS NO SREW HOLE ,GREEN RUBBER/ALL BLACK


RRA 1st model of the 9mm buffer
Told by RRA its a betterBuffer



Anyway slap9mm buffer in my GO TO Defender 2000 M4 14.5
RUNS 100%
Ammo used
PMC M193
2005 Wolf M193 (very Clean accurate)
Q3131A
XM193
LC M855
ZV SS109 ( great groups)
ADCOM M855 ( yucky groups)
Black hills WB 5.56mm 77gr ( ragged hole groups)

THE BRASS shoots out same distance

I trust this weapon with my Life
Black hills Blue Box 75gr OTM ( ragged hole groups)
Win WB USA 45gr HP
Black Hills Blue Box 77gr( ragged hole groups)

M193 BALL
02-19-08, 06:55
I may be the sole voice of dissension.. but I ran a standard weight Buffer for well over 12 years in a 16" HBAR Carbine with well over 14K and never had a problem or felt the need to change to a heavier buffer. Heres what it looks like.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/harv24/IMG_1212.jpg

When I finally picked up a new Upper and lower it came with a H buffer. To be honest. After a few hundred rds... I can not tell any difference. and because I switched from a 16" HBAR to a 14.5" M4 profile.. The muzzle jump and recoil feel a little more severe due to the loss of the extra barrel weight I'm sure.

So, I can't say as I'm sold on the heavier buffers for the 16" and 14.5" carbines. I know the shorter SBRS seem to run better with them. Just my take on it.



I USE TO BE LIKE YOU AS WELL

Bought a 9mm buffer and found out myself cost 25 bucks

I could tell a BIG Difference NOT LITTLE

AKA FMJ

M193 BALL
02-19-08, 07:03
Hey Mark, as you know, the 9mm buffers are the same weight as the H3 buffers. The H3 buffers are generally more money however than the 9MM buffers. The reason is that the H3 buffers have spacers that keep the internal weights going the same direction. The 9mm buffers do not. So if you start to get any kind of timing problems, this might be the cause (just an FYI).




C4


My RRA 2nd model that I order from RRA YEARS AGO
has no screw hole at the end like the First model


Also has some type of INSERTS that rattle back and forth


I called RRA they Told me the 9mm buffer with the screw hole is theBetter buffer of the 2

dont really know why theres 2 models maybe you can Find out

tkoglman
02-20-08, 16:07
OK, maybe someone with more experience with buffers can correct me if I am wrong. Is this the correct way to determine which weight buffer to use (for reliability)?

Pick the lowest power ammo you want to use.

Put in the heaviest buffer you have.

Load one round into a magazine and make ready.

Fire the rifle holding it very loosely.

If the bolt fails to lock back on the empty mag you should move down to the next lighter buffer and repeat the above test.

Is this right?

ZDL
09-18-08, 20:22
bump... because there is a shit load of good information in here that could save people a lot of time.

carbinero
09-28-08, 01:31
Yes, great thread. I looked around for a better spring, and came up with Tubb's SSS flat spring. For $25, is it a winner?

QuietShootr
02-01-09, 17:56
OK, maybe someone with more experience with buffers can correct me if I am wrong. Is this the correct way to determine which weight buffer to use (for reliability)?

Pick the lowest power ammo you want to use.

Put in the heaviest buffer you have.

Load one round into a magazine and make ready.

Fire the rifle holding it very loosely.

If the bolt fails to lock back on the empty mag you should move down to the next lighter buffer and repeat the above test.

Is this right?


I have always used that test. If the weapon will fire 5 single rounds, locking the bolt open on each shot, I do the same test with the weapon rotated 90 degrees until it's been in all positions (6, 3, 12, 9 o'clock). If it passes all that, I call it good to go.

Interestingly, my MRP 16" (mid-length gas system) will pass this test every time with a Colt 9mm buffer and an ISMI recoil spring, using 5.56 pressure ammo. I know the prevailing wisdom is that this is too much weight for a middy, but it's still slightly less weight and more gas pressure than a 20" with rifle buffer.

Heavy Metal
02-01-09, 18:13
I have always used that test. If the weapon will fire 5 single rounds, locking the bolt open on each shot, I do the same test with the weapon rotated 90 degrees until it's been in all positions (6, 3, 12, 9 o'clock). If it passes all that, I call it good to go.

Interestingly, my MRP 16" (mid-length gas system) will pass this test every time with a Colt 9mm buffer and an ISMI recoil spring, using 5.56 pressure ammo. I know the prevailing wisdom is that this is too much weight for a middy, but it's still slightly less weight and more gas pressure than a 20" with rifle buffer.

That is exactly what I do.

Heidevolk
02-08-11, 17:37
Grant,

I just got my CS spring & H2 buffer from you. Shot 180 rounds of Wolf and 30 MK 262 today and everything functioned great.

This is in a Stag 14.5 upper, which you said before tends to be over gassed. Would it be worth buying and testing out an H3?

Thanks!

evolixsurf
02-09-11, 02:17
I would check out the spikes buffer... right in between the h2 and h3 and works great

uwe1
02-09-11, 02:42
I would check out the spikes buffer... right in between the h2 and h3 and works great

H2 buffers weigh 4.6 oz. The ST T2 weighs 4.3 oz and is between the H and H2 in weight category.

I don't like how the ST T2 performed in my guns (sample size of 2) as the recoil seemed much sharper than the H buffer. I switched over to H2s and still have the ST T2 sitting around in my parts box. In my humble, non-scientific, opinion, the ST T2 recoil characteristic was better than the carbine buffer, but worse than H or H2. The 3 separate weights are more mass, and should have more inertia. The tungsten powder consists of many tiny pieces of tungsten, all of which have less inertia than several larger weights. The separate weights should do more to slow down the carrier than a powder. Think of getting hit with a 5 pounds of loose sand versus a rock weighing 5 pounds.

I'm not an engineer so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Iraqgunz
02-09-11, 03:24
I believe that the high speed buffer test that someone posted was showing similar results and others have reported the same. I think I'll stick with the proven ones.


H2 buffers weigh 4.6 oz. The ST T2 weighs 4.3 oz and is between the H and H2 in weight category.

I don't like how the ST T2 performed in my guns (sample size of 2) as the recoil seemed much sharper than the H buffer. I switched over to H2s and still have the ST T2 sitting around in my parts box. In my humble, non-scientific, opinion, the ST T2 recoil characteristic was better than the carbine buffer, but worse than H or H2. The 3 separate weights are more mass, and should have more inertia. The tungsten powder consists of many tiny pieces of tungsten, all of which have less inertia than several larger weights. The separate weights should do more to slow down the carrier than a powder. Think of getting hit with a 5 pounds of loose sand versus a rock weighing 5 pounds.

I'm not an engineer so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Brahmzy
02-09-11, 08:59
One more thing about the ST-T2's - the weight can and does vary a lot. They are advertised at 4.3oz, but most come in at 4.0-4.1oz. I even had one weigh in at 3.9oz. Depending on how pure the powder is, you'll get different weight. They can also be filled too much, which limits the dead-blow effect. I have recently moved to all H2's & H3's and been much happier.

dravz
02-10-11, 16:44
So for my 14.5" middy should I stick with the H buffer I have or is it worth my time to get an H2?

(M16 BCG)



\/\/\/ Roger that, thanks guys.

persona non grata
02-10-11, 16:47
H3 is the lightest I would use. You're better off with something even heavier.

Watrdawg
02-10-11, 16:50
I'm running an H2 in mine and haven't had a single hiccup. I've shot Wolf and Hornady training ammo with it and haven't had any problems. Over all my 14.5" middy feels pretty smooth with the H2.

Iraqgunz
02-10-11, 17:06
What are you talking about? H3 is on of the heaviest ones. Have you actually shot a middy with various buffers before?


H3 is the lightest I would use. You're better off with something even heavier.

persona non grata
02-11-11, 00:50
What are you talking about? H3 is on of the heaviest ones. Have you actually shot a middy with various buffers before?

I use a 6.5 ounce buffer without a suppressor, and an 8 ounce buffer when shooting with a suppressor.

Is the condescending tone necessary? :rolleyes:
Have YOU actually shot a middy with a buffer heavier than an H3?

Iraqgunz
02-11-11, 02:26
Your previous post makes no sense. Maybe it's just me. I have only shot middies with H, H2 and H3.

Unless you are using the new Vltor set up, a heavier one makes no sense at all.


I use a 6.5 ounce buffer without a suppressor, and an 8 ounce buffer when shooting with a suppressor.

Is the condescending tone necessary? :rolleyes:
Have YOU actually shot a middy with a buffer heavier than an H3?

Hmac
02-11-11, 05:00
My 16-inch Light Recce Basic c/VIS (mid length) came with an H buffer and apparently standard carbine spring. Especially with a BattleComp, the recoil is negligible. I tried to improve it by using an H2. It made no difference to me in felt recoil, and it did cycle PMC Bronze in a 1000 round course just fine. OTOH, my 11.5 carbine with a blue buffer spring definitely shoots softer to me with an H2. I've tried an H3 but can't feel any difference over the H2, and I did get an occasional failure with the H3.

We're all trying to apply some kind of repeatable set of rules here. I just think there are too many variables - ammo, spring, BCG, receiver, gas system, barrel length, muzzle device for it to make any sense to try to prove that our own particular anecdote is more valid than anyone else's.

Iraqgunz
02-11-11, 05:26
Let me just say this. Last summer BCM sent markm a 14.5" middy upper to test out. We put different loads into it and used different buffers- all the way to H3. With an H3 using M855 it seemed like it was shooting in slow motion, albeit it was reliable.

persona non grata- is trying to say that he was using buffers that were significantly heavier and I don't even see how the weapon would function. The exception would be if he was using the Vltor A5 system.

The whole purpose behind the heavier buffers is to get one that works reliably and cures some of the beating up that a carbine will take. It's not a contest to see who can use the heaviest one, although it seems that way as of late.

In the OP's case I would probably stay with the H2 unless he is shooting it suppressed.


My 16-inch Light Recce Basic c/VIS (mid length) came with an H buffer and apparently standard carbine spring. Especially with a BattleComp, the recoil is negligible. I tried to improve it by using an H2. It made no difference to me in felt recoil, and it did cycle PMC Bronze in a 1000 round course just fine. OTOH, my 11.5 carbine with a blue buffer spring definitely shoots softer to me with an H2. I've tried an H3 but can't feel any difference over the H2, and I did get an occasional failure with the H3.

We're all trying to apply some kind of repeatable set of rules here. I just think there are too many variables - ammo, spring, BCG, receiver, gas system, barrel length, muzzle device for it to make any sense to try to prove that our own particular anecdote is more valid than anyone else's.

Hmac
02-11-11, 05:49
The whole purpose behind the heavier buffers is to get one that works reliably and cures some of the beating up that a carbine will take. It's not a contest to see who can use the heaviest one, although it seems that way as of late.



I agree. And it's an area that generates far more contention than seems reasonable. Your approach seems reasonable to me and is the one that I have used. A heavy buffer isn't the holy grail for me, optimal recoil management is. On my mid-length, I let Noveske do my thinking for me. On building my SBR, I experimented til I found what I liked. I have at least a few buffers of various weights sitting around on my workbench, but I believe in only chasing one variable at a time - I refuse to obsess over springs.

BufordTJustice
02-12-11, 05:05
Let me just say this. Last summer BCM sent markm a 14.5" middy upper to test out. We put different loads into it and used different buffers- all the way to H3. With an H3 using M855 it seemed like it was shooting in slow motion, albeit it was reliable.

persona non grata- is trying to say that he was using buffers that were significantly heavier and I don't even see how the weapon would function. The exception would be if he was using the Vltor A5 system.

The whole purpose behind the heavier buffers is to get one that works reliably and cures some of the beating up that a carbine will take. It's not a contest to see who can use the heaviest one, although it seems that way as of late.

In the OP's case I would probably stay with the H2 unless he is shooting it suppressed.

IG,

I totally agree with your recs for the OP and I cannot speak for the setup of persona-non-grata's rifle...but I have been running buffers as heavy as 8.3oz on my carbine length stock.

I use a BCM 14.5" middy w/ FSC556, Spike's carbine lower, and Spike's/Fail Zero BCG (and FZ coated hammer). I have had 100% reliability with Federal XM193.

I started with Slash at Heavybuffers.net. He crafted a SS buffer body with a continuous diameter equal to the 'spring shoulder' diameter of a normal carbine buffer body (the shoulder located immediately behind the head of the buffer body).

With a cavity inside that holds three normal carbine weights, I installed up to 3 tungsten weights (from a disassembled G&R H3 buffer). 3 Tungsten weights brought he entire buffer assembly's weight to ~8.3oz. At that weight, and using a Tubbs flatwire buffer spring, I was 100% w/ American Eagle 55gr, PMC Bronze 55gr, and Federal XM193. I only had a few failures to extract (short stroke) on Tula 55gr 223.

I have since replaced one tungsten weight with a steel weight, bringing overall weight to ~7.3 (with the reciprocating 'guts' of a std H2 carbine buffer). This has brought me to 100% reliability with all rounds (except for the occasional hard tula primer).

The entire reason I embarked on this journey started with my Spike's FZ coated BCG and hammer.

My above mentioned BCM upper used to have a CMT MP/HP BCG running a Tubbs flatwire buffer spring and an H3 carbine buffer from Grant. I took a chance on the Spike's NiB (FZ) coated BCG.

Upon first shooting the NiB BCG, I immediately noticed what felt like a noticeable increase in the sharpness of the recoil stroke...that and my red dot seemed to jump around with a LOT more vigor while running Tula 55gr 223. Thinking it may all be in my head, I handed to my buddy (3 tours in Iraq w/ the Air Cav 1st/7th) who has had ample trigger time on my gun and on many other combat rifles. I stated nothing of the BCG change (he and I are both LEO's and were working on weapon transitions). Without prompting, he asked me if I was running training ammo or the XM193 he and I had bought cases of from Palmetto Armory. I asked why he asked and he stated the recoil stroke felt different.

Needless to say, the entire focus of our range trip changed. Both he and I A/B'd the two BCG's in my upper and also in his BCM 14.5" M4-clone w/ permed A2x (also running an H3 w/ a tubbs flatwire buffer spring). He and I both agreed that the Spike's BCG, while 100% reliable, caused recoil to feel sharper and caused both of the guns to move around more.

While using the Spike's BCG with my 7.3oz buffer, the gun runs so smoothly, that it has become difficult to tell the difference between XM193, PMC bronze, and Tula 55gr...other than the muzzle blast/flash. This was interesting to me that the increased weight of the buffer caused the difference in the recoil strokes of the above listed rounds to be diminished. This effect, too, was verified by my buddy and by my wife by having another blindly and randomly load a PMAG w/ all three of the rounds. Each of us shot several magazines like that and the effect is that the difference in felt recoil and gun movement BETWEEN the rounds is barely noticeable (and I would argue not noticeable at all to a new shooter). The biggest (and still discernable) difference between them was muzzle blast.

I said all that to say that some people (like me) are running pretty heavy buffers...but I've only seen it with people using coated BCGs (IONbond, Chrome, FZ/NiB, QPQ/polished stainless, etc.).

Lastly, when going back and forth between an H3 and my 7.3oz buffer, the difference in recoil and gun movement is noted.

It seems the great reduction in friction caused by the FZ coating on my Spike's BCG is causing a meaningful INCREASE in rearward BCG velocities.

I run my BCG wet with Slip2k EWL despite the coating, so I cannot comment on running one of these BCG's dry. I wouldn't recommend that anyhow.

Brahmzy
02-12-11, 12:01
BufordTJustice, great post - your methods/findings have been very similar to mine. After much experimentation, I run Spikes NiB BCGs, Tubbs Flatwire springs and H3's in every single 556 AR I own. The result is extremely smooth, extremely soft shooting rifles. Like jaw-droppingly soft shooting. Every one's also got a Battlecomp on it. The combination is awesome, and dead reliable. The reduced friction of the NiB BCGs really lets you do some cool stuff.
I have a Slash heavy 308 buffer that has worked great, and I think I'm going to try one or two of his 556 heavy buffers.
Now if could just convince FailZero to coat my 308 BCG for me!

Neo Mara
02-12-11, 16:13
I started with Slash at Heavybuffers.net. He crafted a SS buffer body with a continuous diameter equal to the 'spring shoulder' diameter of a normal carbine buffer body (the shoulder located immediately behind the head of the buffer body).

So I take it the buffer has a shoulder near the end of the buffer and the spring stays under significant preload? Got any pics? I didn't see anything like that on his site.

BufordTJustice
02-12-11, 16:57
So I take it the buffer has a shoulder near the end of the buffer and the spring stays under significant preload? Got any pics? I didn't see anything like that on his site.

Negative.

See the picture on Slash's website:
http://www.heavybuffers.com/ar15carbine.html

The rearward diameter of my buffer body is equal to the shoulder diameter (the portion of the buffer body that essentially grabs or captures the front end of the buffer spring) of a normal buffer body. A normal carbine buffer has a step-down after this shoulder.

See Bravo Company's Photo of a normal buffer here:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Carbine-Buffer-p/buffer%20carbine.htm

Neo Mara
02-12-11, 20:01
I saw the pictures on the site but your post led me to think you had had a custom buffer made unlike the ones listed on his site.

EzGoingKev
02-12-11, 22:22
If everyone is able to run these heavier weight buffers doesn't that indicate that all these carbines are way over gassed?

I have not shot a rifle with a mid length system on it but the general consensus is that it shoots smoother than a carbine length system. What is the difference? Lower gas pressure. If you lowered the gas pressure on the carbine system to match the mid length wouldn't they shoot the same?

BufordTJustice
02-13-11, 00:11
If everyone is able to run these heavier weight buffers doesn't that indicate that all these carbines are way over gassed?

I have not shot a rifle with a mid length system on it but the general consensus is that it shoots smoother than a carbine length system. What is the difference? Lower gas pressure. If you lowered the gas pressure on the carbine system to match the mid length wouldn't they shoot the same?

Kev,

Negative. The people who are running these super-heavy buffers are using bolt carriers that have ultra-low friction coatings on them. The uppers have gas ports that are of the proper size for normal phosphated bolt carriers.

Also, the gas pressure curve is different between the two lengths. Gas pressure on a carbine is higher, and is implemented over a longer period of time due to the extra dwell time (dwell time is determined by the length/percentage of the barrel found between the gas port and the muzzle. It is the duration that the entire system is under pressure).

Locating the gas port further away from the chamber decreases peak gas pressure by 30-40% by most SME's calculations. The lower (yet still adequate) gas pressure, coupled with a shorter dwell time, means that the BCG moves rearward with much less excess energy. This is easier on the bolt/extractor and generally extends parts life. It has not yet been determined HOW MUCH the reduced stress adds to the life of these parts...but less stress always equals longer parts life if everything remains equal (and in this case it does).

There have been many posts on gas system length (midlength and carbine length)....a search would be good to you, my friend. :D

EzGoingKev
02-13-11, 00:36
I have read a bunch of the posts, that is how I came to posting what I did.

People are swapping out their buffers whether their bolt carrier is coated or not. I really do not think the coating has all that much of an effect on things anyways.

If company A delivers their rifle with a gas port size of .075" and an H buffer and then you put in an H3 with a higher rate spring in it and it still functions 100% then common sense would say that .075" did not have to be that big in the first place.

No matter what gas system the rifle has it is going to take X amount of gas pressure to drive the bolt to the rear. The factors that determine X would be:
1) Bolt carrier group weight
2) Buffer weight
3) Action spring rate
4) Bolt carrier design
5) Lube

If all of these (5) things are equal and a mid length system will cycle the bolt with 30-40% less gas pressure than a carbine length system then you should be able to reduce the gas pressure on the carbine length system 30-40% with a smaller gas port and it should still cycle the bolt.

BufordTJustice
02-13-11, 01:37
I saw the pictures on the site but your post led me to think you had had a custom buffer made unlike the ones listed on his site.

I did have a custom buffer made, in a sense. I had Clint use an XH buffer body and drill it out to accept three internal reciprocating weights as opposed to the two (tungsten) weights that normally are found inside the XH body. This reduced the buffer body weight (which is directly coupled with, and added to, the weight of the BCG) in favor of an increased proportion of reciprocating weight (the stuff that quells bolt bounce).

I'm sorry for the confusion.

BufordTJustice
02-13-11, 01:58
I have read a bunch of the posts, that is how I came to posting what I did.

People are swapping out their buffers whether their bolt carrier is coated or not. I really do not think the coating has all that much of an effect on things anyways.

If company A delivers their rifle with a gas port size of .075" and an H buffer and then you put in an H3 with a higher rate spring in it and it still functions 100% then common sense would say that .075" did not have to be that big in the first place.

No matter what gas system the rifle has it is going to take X amount of gas pressure to drive the bolt to the rear. The factors that determine X would be:
1) Bolt carrier group weight
2) Buffer weight
3) Action spring rate
4) Bolt carrier design
5) Lube

If all of these (5) things are equal and a mid length system will cycle the bolt with 30-40% less gas pressure than a carbine length system then you should be able to reduce the gas pressure on the carbine length system 30-40% with a smaller gas port and it should still cycle the bolt.

Yes, people have been swapping buffers with std BCGs with varying degrees of success. The only way I know to go heavier than an H3 (using a std BCG) without sacrificing reliability is to use Vltor's excellent A5 RE and buffer w/ a rifle spring.

In my limited experience, you are incorrect about the coating; it has LOT to do with the way the BCG behaves inside of the upper. How else could I run an 8oz buffer with a up-rated action spring on an upper that IG and Markm have seen start to malf due to excessive buffer weight while using a 5.4oz H3 buffer and a std BCM action spring, being tested with the same ammo?

They have a LOT more experience than I do, and clearly they encountered a design limitation using a std phosphated BCG and an H3 buffer. I'm adding ~3oz on top of that AND using a heavier spring. That is simply not possible using a phosphated BCG. I tried it w/ my CMT. FTR, using my CMT BCG, I too found that an H3 would cycle too slowly using some types of weak 223 in my BCM 14.5" middy.

I agree with your list except for #5. Lube addresses friction and that is what belongs in its place. Friction does play a major part in function.

As far as pressure curves and gas system lengths, people much smarter than I have shown the midlength to be more forgiving as to ammo type and ammo pressure. There are some LMT carbines out there that have rather small gas ports...they shoot NATO pressure stuff REALLY softly (and with great reliability), but they won't even cycle using Wolf or Tula or some American Eagle or PMC SAAMI pressure ammo. The BCM/DD/Centurion/Noveske/KAC midlengths have been shown to cycle NATO pressure ammo as softly as a barely-there gas ported LMT, and still run the weaker ammo types without issue.

That's the extent of my knowledge on the topic. For more you'll need an SME to chime in.

Evil Bert
02-13-11, 08:38
Okay so the OP wants to switch to a new buffer. Has anyone asked the OP why? Is there a problem with he is trying to fix or is he trying to fix a problem that is not there and just trying to "upgrade." Is he running suppressed? The buffer and spring are there to counter the rearward movement of the BCG. There are a lot of factors that contribute to what weight buffer you should use. Gas port size, carrier, ammo, suppressor, buffer spring strength, etc. The biggest concern is the gas. Is the rifle overgassed (i.e. gas port too big)? If NOT, then putting an H3 or even an H2 could cause short stroking, and you just wasted you money. If it is overgassed, then try out a new buffer. But if you want the softest recoil possible with your rifle yet the same reliability you have now or better, go with a VLTOR A5 system. It will give you great recoil management and great reliability.

But if you juts want to upgrade your buffer for the sake of upgrading your buffer, then go for it, it's your rifle and your money.

EzGoingKev
02-13-11, 11:50
In my limited experience, you are incorrect about the coating; it has LOT to do with the way the BCG behaves inside of the upper.

If you have two rifles configured with the same specs/parts but have one use a TiN/DLC/EXO/Chrome/Whatever coating while the other one is standard.

Shoot them dry and you could see a discernible difference but shoot them good and wet and the difference is not going to be all that much.



I agree with your list except for #5. Lube addresses friction and that is what belongs in its place. Friction does play a major part in function.

Lube is there because it belongs there. It is much easier to quantify.

You can go out and shoot your rifle with CLP and then clean it all off and use wheel bearing grease on it and record your findings.

You cannot go out and set the friction to a factor of 10 and then dial it up to 20 and compare.

I see people throwing all these parts at their rifles to improve things and have to wonder if they are looking at the wrong end.

Neo Mara
02-13-11, 14:54
I did have a custom buffer made, in a sense. I had Clint use an XH buffer body and drill it out to accept three internal reciprocating weights as opposed to the two (tungsten) weights that normally are found inside the XH body. This reduced the buffer body weight (which is directly coupled with, and added to, the weight of the BCG) in favor of an increased proportion of reciprocating weight (the stuff that quells bolt bounce).

I'm sorry for the confusion.

I get it now, makes a lot of sense to try it that way. If you are still getting bolt lock back on the SS body with 3 tunsten weights you could also try having him hollow out a 9mm tungsten buffer and putting tungsten weights inside. Sould allow for the heaviest carbine size buffer possible while still having free flaoting weights inside.

BufordTJustice
02-13-11, 16:15
Okay so the OP wants to switch to a new buffer. Has anyone asked the OP why? Is there a problem with he is trying to fix or is he trying to fix a problem that is not there and just trying to "upgrade." Is he running suppressed? The buffer and spring are there to counter the rearward movement of the BCG. There are a lot of factors that contribute to what weight buffer you should use. Gas port size, carrier, ammo, suppressor, buffer spring strength, etc. The biggest concern is the gas. Is the rifle overgassed (i.e. gas port too big)? If NOT, then putting an H3 or even an H2 could cause short stroking, and you just wasted you money. If it is overgassed, then try out a new buffer. But if you want the softest recoil possible with your rifle yet the same reliability you have now or better, go with a VLTOR A5 system. It will give you great recoil management and great reliability.

But if you juts want to upgrade your buffer for the sake of upgrading your buffer, then go for it, it's your rifle and your money.

Bert, you ARE aware that new Colt carbines going to the military are shipping with H2 buffers, right? They are.

Heavier buffers ease extraction, allow the case obturation to finish, and also serve to smooth the recoil stroke.

Any mod that sacrifices reliability is one that's only for fools. However, I am up to about 1100 rounds on my 7.3oz buffer...shooting mostly nasty Tula, with 100% reliability.

There is nothing special about he Vltor A5 that allows it to use a heavier buffer than a normal carbine RE except that it allows for the use of the softer (but with more even pressure through its stroke) rifle spring.

I'm not sure what you're getting at by sh*tting all over some good and honest experimentation that I and others have conducted.

I have experienced no adverse effects on reliability and a greatly smoothed recoil stroke: you show me the downside.

BufordTJustice
02-13-11, 16:27
If you have two rifles configured with the same specs/parts but have one use a TiN/DLC/EXO/Chrome/Whatever coating while the other one is standard.

Shoot them dry and you could see a discernible difference but shoot them good and wet and the difference is not going to be all that much.

In my experience you are wrong, sir. I A/B'd the NiB BCG w/ my CMT FA group using Slip 2000 EWL AND Slip 2000 EWG (grease) and the difference was notable between the two. I still could not run the super heavy buffers using the CMT group, but could with the NiB. Same ammo. Same Upper. Same range day.


Lube is there because it belongs there. It is much easier to quantify.

You can go out and shoot your rifle with CLP and then clean it all off and use wheel bearing grease on it and record your findings.

You cannot go out and set the friction to a factor of 10 and then dial it up to 20 and compare.

I'm not trackin' on your point. Friction is an ever-present evil in engineering, and reducing it is still a good thing last time I checked.

I was already running my CT carrier as sopping-wet as I could...no more lube could be added. So, tell me how using a coating that was developed to reduce friction is a bad thing.


I see people throwing all these parts at their rifles to improve things and have to wonder if they are looking at the wrong end.

Brother, I heard the same bullshit when red dots came out, when midlength gas systems were developed, when the battlecomp was invented, when the PMAG came out, etc. Your back-handed comment about pushing what the platform is capable of is what stifles innovation. If you don't like it, then don't do it. This was actually thread-drift from the start, as my direction to the OP echoed IG; use an H2 buffer and be done with it.

Since you know so much about me and my inadequacies at using said carbine, how about you tell me some more about myself.....really, I'd like to hear it. Save your condescending bullsh*t for TOS.

Addressing an engineering/design issue in this Technical forum should NEVER be a faux paux or be subject to brow beating.

M193 BALL
02-13-11, 17:39
WOW this same topic is still going after all these years??

middy should be fine with carbine buffer or a H buffer

With My 2-14.5 M4
I can run all of them. from standard, to 9mm

mostly its up to the operator

BTW I run regular mil spec carriers/bolts
Not the fancy coated type

EzGoingKev
02-13-11, 20:18
In my experience you are wrong, sir. I A/B'd the NiB BCG w/ my CMT FA group using Slip 2000 EWL AND Slip 2000 EWG (grease) and the difference was notable between the two. I still could not run the super heavy buffers using the CMT group, but could with the NiB. Same ammo. Same Upper. Same range day.

I'm not trackin' on your point. Friction is an ever-present evil in engineering, and reducing it is still a good thing last time I checked.

I was already running my CT carrier as sopping-wet as I could...no more lube could be added. So, tell me how using a coating that was developed to reduce friction is a bad thing.

I never said reducing friction is a bad thing.



Brother, I heard the same bullshit when red dots came out, when midlength gas systems were developed, when the battlecomp was invented, when the PMAG came out, etc. Your back-handed comment about pushing what the platform is capable of is what stifles innovation. If you don't like it, then don't do it. This was actually thread-drift from the start, as my direction to the OP echoed IG; use an H2 buffer and be done with it.

There was no back handed comment and there is no innovation here. I see people throwing parts at something without understanding why they are doing it and how it works. It is more thousand island dressing being passed of as secret sauce than innovation.

I haven't read every thread on here, but the only one that really stands out as doing things right is Grant's thread about the best suppressed SBR ever. He started with the gas port and worked his way back, picking and testing all the pieces to make sure they all worked the way he wanted them to. Maybe I missed the others. If I did, someone please point them out to me because I would love to read them to further my knowledge.



Since you know so much about me and my inadequacies at using said carbine, how about you tell me some more about myself.....really, I'd like to hear it. Save your condescending bullsh*t for TOS.

Addressing an engineering/design issue in this Technical forum should NEVER be a faux paux or be subject to brow beating.
I have no idea what you are talking about. All I am doing is having a technical discussion about the AR platform. No "brow beating" or a single word about you.

BufordTJustice
02-13-11, 22:49
I never said reducing friction is a bad thing.


There was no back handed comment and there is no innovation here. I see people throwing parts at something without understanding why they are doing it and how it works. It is more thousand island dressing being passed of as secret sauce than innovation.

I haven't read every thread on here, but the only one that really stands out as doing things right is Grant's thread about the best suppressed SBR ever. He started with the gas port and worked his way back, picking and testing all the pieces to make sure they all worked the way he wanted them to. Maybe I missed the others. If I did, someone please point them out to me because I would love to read them to further my knowledge.


I have no idea what you are talking about. All I am doing is having a technical discussion about the AR platform. No "brow beating" or a single word about you.

Fair enough. Who is "People" that you so often refer to in your posts? I'm trackin' that your posts are directed at me (and mine at you) as I was under the impression that you and I are having a dialog on this thread.

There is nothing new under the sun and I've made no effort to have others believe that I'm breaking new ground here. I guess your salad dressing comment was supposed to be a compliment.

I am in no way competing with Grant's SBR thread with my few posts on this thread. IN fact, his thread has greatly informed my own experimentation in the area of heavy buffers.


I see people throwing parts at something without understanding why they are doing it and how it works.

I'm supposed to believe that this is not directed at me? Gotcha.

Considering that it is directed at me, I'm not sure just how to respond. How do you know what I do or do not understand?

Is there a question you'd like to ask or a direct statement you'd like to make about what I've posted?

persona non grata
02-16-11, 01:23
Your previous post makes no sense. Maybe it's just me. I have only shot middies with H, H2 and H3.


Someone apparently found it necessary to temporarily lock my account for asking a question. You admit that you have no experience with buffers heavier than an H3 and you belittle me attempting to share my opinion, based on my experience with heavier buffers. What am I missing here?

Iraqgunz
02-16-11, 01:37
Do yourself a BIG favor. Re-read what I said and my post. IME from shooting the BCM 14.5" midlength carbine with an H3 buffer the gun is cycling so slow that it borders on not functioning reliably

However, if you are using the newer Vltor A5 set up, that is different. Which is what I said as well.

Your account wasn't locked. You were given an infraction for disrespect towards a Moderator.


Someone apparently found it necessary to temporarily lock my account for asking a question. You admit that you have no experience with buffers heavier than an H3 and you belittle me attempting to share my opinion, based on my experience with heavier buffers. What am I missing here?

persona non grata
02-16-11, 02:04
Do yourself a BIG favor. Re-read what I said and my post. IME from shooting the BCM 14.5" midlength carbine with an H3 buffer the gun is cycling so slow that it borders on not functioning reliably

However, if you are using the newer Vltor A5 set up, that is different. Which is what I said as well.

Your account wasn't locked. You were given an infraction for disrespect towards a Moderator.

Our experiences obviously differ. My data set is dozens of weapons, not one weapon. Standard carbine receiver extensions, no VLTOR A5s. And apparently I'm not the only one with similar results.

I showed no disrespect, I stated my experience and posed virtually the same question to you that you posed to me.

Lock/Infraction - Semantics ;)

LRB45
08-30-12, 18:47
Got some questions and saw this thread and thought it was relevant to what I was searching for.

Currently I am running a standard buffer spring with an H2 but am thinking about getting an H3 and a Sprinco blue spring or even a red Sprinco. Will this make a difference in felt recoil or do I leave well enough alone?

Thanks

Magic_Salad0892
08-30-12, 18:50
Got some questions and saw this thread and thought it was relevant to what I was searching for.

Currently I am running a standard buffer spring with an H2 but am thinking about getting an H3 and a Sprinco blue spring or even a red Sprinco. Will this make a difference in felt recoil or do I leave well enough alone?

Thanks

What gas system/barrel length are we talkin' here?

I'm inclined to say leave ''well enough'' alone.

LRB45
08-30-12, 19:05
Sorry, forgot to mention 14.5" and carbine gas system.

Magic_Salad0892
08-30-12, 19:16
Sorry, forgot to mention 14.5" and carbine gas system.

H2 + Sprinco BLUE Spring, and 5 Coil extractor spring + Black insert.

Source: Mike Pannone

http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

I however, also personally recommend VLTOR A5 with standard 5.1 oz. A5 buffer, and Sprinco GREEN spring.

You're just fine with what you have as well. IMHO. But the Sprinco BLUE spring is SLIGHTLY stronger, though I've never measured by how much.

Iraqgunz
08-31-12, 00:03
I wouldn't run an O-ring necessarily. It's not always needed and can sometimes cause chambering issues.

Magic_Salad0892
08-31-12, 00:25
I wouldn't run an O-ring necessarily. It's not always needed and can sometimes cause chambering issues.

I didn't specify O-Ring, as it's not my place to do so. But according to M. Pannone an O ring is G2G on a 14.5'' CARgas gun.

I know what you're talking about though, I remember reading tons of threads on this board about people using O-Rings and having extraction, and chambering issues due to too much extractor tension. (Mostly on MIDgas guns though, I've never heard of anybody doing it on a RIFLE gas system.)

It seems like whatever the hot topic is on this board, we're all experimenting with the same thing, at the same time. (IE: The AR extractor threads a year or two ago. The lube threads before that. The Gen4 glock threads a year ago. The Gen3/4 extractor issues now. The SCAR threads...) Maybe that's how we make progress.

prdubi
01-24-13, 00:34
I just want for the record to say that I have a Noveske Crusader upper and sometimes it gave me issues.

Got a H3 buffer and springco WHITE spring special and it has been pretty reliable and rock solid.

I run a YHM Phantom QD suppressor on the setup so I know it is making a difference with the recoil and sharpness.

I just want to say thank you for having this thread.