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GLP Standard
11-07-07, 04:58
Before anyone decides to flame me with the whole "thats highly illegal" deal, or "why do you need 3 shot burst or full auto? Is it really worth the money?" I just want to say, first off, I know it's illegal. I know the basics of the whole BATF deal, and the process to own a Class III weapon, and I would follow the proceedure and have it 100% legal (i.e. Form 1, pay the tax stamp, etc), otherwise I wouldn't even consider it. I do not want an illegal weapon, and this is not what I am getting at here. Also, this weapon would be used for LEGAL purposes only, namely just shooting at the range, and for the sake of having it, basically from a hobby/collectors standpoint. I'm not a criminal, and have no interest in starting a career as one. As for the question Im sure will be asked, "why do you need full auto or 3 shot burst?" ...well, I dont. In fact, there is no way I would EVER pay the amount of money that a machine gun goes for. Its just not that important to me. However, if it can be had for a reasonable price, why the hell not? I definately don't want to pay $16,000+ for an original Colt M4, so here is my question:

Is there a way to convert a semi auto AR-15 to fire 3 shot burst? Im not talking about some aftermarket piece, that jerry rigs the weapon. Im saying, what parts would have to be replaced to make the weapon 3 shot burst? Is this possible? If so, how much are we talking for a price range? Where can I find these parts? I think I know, but can someone go over the process to have this type of modification registed and legal with the ATF?

If this isn't possible, then its fine. Like I said, I don't need Full Auto or 3 shot burst, and wouldnt pay that much to have it. I just think it would be cool to have, much like a silencer. Dont know why. I guess I could consider it somewhat of a hobby? This is just an honest question from a guy whos new to AR-15s. It doesnt seem that far fetched, and if its possible, Im sure there are thousands that have done it before.

Bolt_Overide
11-07-07, 05:33
possible... yes, legal... not even close.

The only way to make a gun that was not converted before the 1986 ban a machine gun (this includes full auto, 3 shot burst, or anything that fires more than 1 round anytime the trigger is depressed) is to have a sear, or some other device that was registered prior to the 1986 ban.

In short, drilling holes into your ar15 anywhere close to the auto sear hole is a big no no.

SSGN_Doc
11-07-07, 06:14
For burst you would need a pre 1986 transferable class III weapon. There are very few of these, and the prices are high (think over $10,000).

If you want to use the "right parts this is pretty much the most common option.

condition 1
11-07-07, 08:08
:eek: 5 to 10 years, conversion.

Robb Jensen
11-07-07, 08:09
Before anyone decides to flame me with the whole "thats highly illegal" deal, or "why do you need 3 shot burst or full auto? Is it really worth the money?" I just want to say, first off, I know it's illegal. I know the basics of the whole BATF deal, and the process to own a Class III weapon, and I would follow the proceedure and have it 100% legal (i.e. Form 1, pay the tax stamp, etc), otherwise I wouldn't even consider it. I do not want an illegal weapon, and this is not what I am getting at here. Also, this weapon would be used for LEGAL purposes only, namely just shooting at the range, and for the sake of having it, basically from a hobby/collectors standpoint. I'm not a criminal, and have no interest in starting a career as one. As for the question Im sure will be asked, "why do you need full auto or 3 shot burst?" ...well, I dont. In fact, there is no way I would EVER pay the amount of money that a machine gun goes for. Its just not that important to me. However, if it can be had for a reasonable price, why the hell not? I definately don't want to pay $16,000+ for an original Colt M4, so here is my question:

Is there a way to convert a semi auto AR-15 to fire 3 shot burst? Im not talking about some aftermarket piece, that jerry rigs the weapon. Im saying, what parts would have to be replaced to make the weapon 3 shot burst? Is this possible? If so, how much are we talking for a price range? Where can I find these parts? I think I know, but can someone go over the process to have this type of modification registed and legal with the ATF?

If this isn't possible, then its fine. Like I said, I don't need Full Auto or 3 shot burst, and wouldnt pay that much to have it. I just think it would be cool to have, much like a silencer. Dont know why. I guess I could consider it somewhat of a hobby? This is just an honest question from a guy whos new to AR-15s. It doesnt seem that far fetched, and if its possible, Im sure there are thousands that have done it before.

NFA FAQ (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt)


ATFs definition of a machine gun:
A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with
a single pull of the trigger, or a receiver of a machine gun, or a
combination of parts for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set
of parts for converting a gun into a machine gun.

So in ATFs eyes there is no difference between 3 round burst and full auto. Both are machine guns.

All machine guns had to be made prior to May 19, 1986 (and in the NFA registry) so unless you have a time machine to go back to early May 1986 ;) you aren't going to be able to make a new machine gun on a Form 1. There is a finite amount of transferable machine guns out there which is why the high prices.

nationwide
11-07-07, 08:20
For burst you would need a pre 1986 transferable class III weapon. There are very few of these, and the prices are high (think over $10,000).

If you want to use the "right parts this is pretty much the most common option.


What is a "class III weapon" and where can I get one??? They sound cool! :rolleyes:

markm
11-07-07, 08:25
I would go with the 3 shot burst! Let me know how it works out for you!

GLP Standard
11-07-07, 14:17
What is a "class III weapon" and where can I get one??? They sound cool! :rolleyes:

This was almost a useful comment. Id almost consider it spam if it wasnt for it actually having to do with the thread...pointless, ignorant and unnecessary or not....I thought maybe on a forum of this sort, where GENERALLY speaking a higher level of intelligence and maturity is used, that I wouldn't be able to find comments like this, but I guess I was wrong. You be sure and share some of your vast knowledge in some of my other threads too. I'm sure your stay in these forums will be greatly apprectiated by the mods and admins with an attitude like that *thumbs up*

...Anyway... That was just the answer I was looking for. Case closed. No more questions. Its just not worth 10 years in jail, and a $100,000 fine to be able to fire 3 rounds with one trigger pull opposed to 1. I was just curious if its possible, whats involved if it is, and if it can be had for cheap.

Thanks for the help

nationwide
11-07-07, 15:07
This was almost a useful comment. Id almost consider it spam if it wasnt for it actually having to do with the thread...pointless, ignorant and unnecessary or not....I thought maybe on a forum of this sort, where GENERALLY speaking a higher level of intelligence and maturity is used, that I wouldn't be able to find comments like this, but I guess I was wrong. You be sure and share some of your vast knowledge in some of my other threads too. I'm sure your stay in these forums will be greatly apprectiated by the mods and admins with an attitude like that *thumbs up*

...Anyway... That was just the answer I was looking for. Case closed. No more questions. Its just not worth 10 years in jail, and a $100,000 fine to be able to fire 3 rounds with one trigger pull opposed to 1. I was just curious if its possible, whats involved if it is, and if it can be had for cheap.

Thanks for the help

Well, WHAT EXACTLY is a "class III" weapon? Please point out some actual reference to it. Additionally, what would a class I or class II weapon be. Is there a class IV???

Or... were you talking about a Title 2 firearm? ;)

Buckaroo
11-07-07, 15:45
Well, WHAT EXACTLY is a "class III" weapon? Please point out some actual reference to it. Additionally, what would a class I or class II weapon be. Is there a class IV???

Or... were you talking about a Title 2 firearm? ;)

See Here (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html)

Robb Jensen
11-07-07, 15:49
See Here (http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html)


Regardless of the name of that site there are no class III guns, there are FFL/SOT holders (some are Class 3 dealers) who can deal in Title II NFA firearms. Guns themselves are either Title I or Title II.

From the web site you posted the link to:

What are NFA Weapons?

There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law,
title 1 firearms and title 2. Title 1 firearms are long guns
(rifles and shotguns), handguns, firearm frames or receivers, and
most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms. Title 2 weapons are
NFA weapons. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National
Firearms Act (26 USC sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA. Title 1 is
generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 USC sec. 921 et seq.).
NFA weapons are sometimes called class 3 weapons, because a class
3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA weapons.

GLP Standard
11-07-07, 15:52
Well, WHAT EXACTLY is a "class III" weapon? Please point out some actual reference to it. Additionally, what would a class I or class II weapon be. Is there a class IV???

Or... were you talking about a Title 2 firearm? ;)

Google "Class III weapons" and youll find MANY sites with text such as these:
"We are dealers of class 3 weapons"
"How to Own Class III Weapons"

If you were trying to be witty with your original comment, you definately went about it the wrong way. A simple "you know you're misusing technical terms?" followed by a simple correction would have been better. However, that was pretty clever. I applaude you.

Typing "Class III Weapons" in google, which brings up such texts as the ones I named above, especially to a newbie to the whole topic like myself, would tend to bring the common misconception that the terms NFA firearm, or a "Title 2 Firearm" are used synonymously with "Class III Firearms", but I guess it goes along the same lines as calling a Magazine a "Clip", which I actually can't stand myself, so I guess I see where youre coming from. This actually seems a lot like my supervisor at work shedding some of his knowledge on me when I told him I wanted an M4, meaning an M4 style AR-15, when he went on to tell me how you can't own one as a civilian unless you have a class III license (this is where I originally got this misconception). He probably knew what I meant, but he decided it would be more fun to try and impress me, even though he probably knows less about the subject than I do. However, now I know the difference. Don't see how it actually mattered, or what some people get out of trying to seem more intelligent than they really are through a friggin computer screen, but thanks for the help. Ill do you a favor, and from now on, ill use proper terminology. Hows this for starters: What I meant was...would it be possible to make a weapon ASSOCIATED with a CLASS III DEALER. Next time ill be sure and call it a Title 2 or NFA weapon though.


Regardless of the name of that site there are no class III guns, there are FFL/SOT holders (some are Class 3 dealers) who can deal in Title II NFA firearms. Guns themselves are either Title I or Title II.
However, from that website he posted, right at the top it says:
"F. Class 3 (Machineguns, etc.) Firearm Information
1. General Guide to Class 3 Weapons"

This coming from a website that actually explains the technical difference between the 2 terms? Its obviously a common misconception. So common that only someone who is trying to sound intelligent would take the time to correct, or flame someone for using. Now I ask, is it really so different that someone says "a class III firearm" opposed to "a firearm associated with a class III dealer" or a "title 2 firearm"? Was his comment really necessary? Or was it just useless spam? Could one not take the term "a class III weapon" as meaning "a weapon which would be associated with a class III dealer"? To me, if a weapon is associated with a class III dealer, that would basically make it a "class III weapon" but I dont know..whatever

Robb Jensen
11-07-07, 16:19
A regular gun dealer is a Title 1 dealer/FFL holder (no SOT paid).

To deal in NFA a Title 1/FFL holder must pay the appropriate SOT which are:

Class 1 : for an importer of NFA firearms.
Class 2 : is for a manufacturer of NFA firearms.
Class 3 : is for a dealer in NFA firearms.

Many think this means that NFA firearms are Class 3 (not Title II), clearly misunderstanding the nomenclature.

Nationwide is just busting your balls..............No harm, no foul.

nationwide
11-07-07, 16:42
Nationwide is just busting your balls..............No harm, no foul.

Yes... thank you... I'll be here all week!

As the owner of a machine gun, supressors, and SBR's, I get persnickety over correct wording of these items.

Why? What does it really matter? :confused:

Because it's minute details and specific definitions that land people in FPMITA Prison. ;)

Voodoochild
11-07-07, 19:24
Listen to what Robb (gotm4) has to say he will point you in the right direction.

mactastic
11-07-07, 19:35
After all that fun banter on the specifics and definitions of machineguns, suppressors and SBR's let me add that I think 3 rd burst groups are overrated.

With a full auto group and proper trigger control you should be able to shoot 1,2, or 3 round bursts all day long. And still always have the option of laying on the trigger for some full auto action.

KDG
11-07-07, 20:04
After all that fun banter on the specifics and definitions of machineguns, suppressors and SBR's let me add that I think 3 rd burst groups are overrated.

With a full auto group and proper trigger control you should be able to shoot 1,2, or 3 round bursts all day long. And still always have the option of laying on the trigger for some full auto action.

This has been discussed before. Some of the thoughts were from, loss of accuracy from full auto, to conservation of ammo, to over heating and affecting reliability.

But I agree, it makes more sense to let the user decide on how many rounds to dispense.

And given the choice, how many would choose a 3 round burst over full auto anyway? Probably no one.

SSGN_Doc
11-07-07, 20:51
Alright, alright. So I swaped my terms there for a moment. NFA weapon would have been the correct term. Class III dealer is who you need to go to to purchase such a weapon.

The submarine has thickened my skin enough to not mind being corrected when I'm wrong.

It's all good. :)

davidp14
11-08-07, 14:27
I shoot 3rd burst pretty much all the time, but without the extra selector postion. So I guess fundamentally, I whole heartedly agree with the 3RB concept. Its actually a pretty good idea IMO, If the paper ever started shooting back, I may have a tendency to be much less conservative with my ammo.:D

Will I buy a kit for my RR? Nope.

Armati
11-10-07, 11:36
Outfits like Pallidin Press, Omega Press, Delta Press and AMOK have all sorts of books on this stuff. Remember, these books are for informational purposes only and all NFA rules apply.

You could also Google "DIAS AR15."

Good luck and watch your cornhole!

Legal FA fun and expensive. Illegal FA is no fun and still expensive. If you think $16,000 is expensive for legal FA, keep in mind that a good NFA attorney will run you about $250 an hour.