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MegademiC
09-03-11, 16:47
I want to be able to induce double feeds to practice clearing them. Is there a way to make it happen or do you have to set it up? I saw a youtube vid of Jason Falla(iirc) where he got one half through the mag. Is there a way to do that or was it just coincidence?

If im not able to induce one, how does it happen? Failure to eject, where the empty shell gets stuck up by the gas tube and fresh round partially in chamber? Thanks.

Mikey
09-03-11, 17:02
The easiest way to get a random double feed would be to use a worn out magazine with spread feed lips.

Mike

Iraqgunz
09-03-11, 17:05
That's what I was thinking as well. Otherwise just stage it.


The easiest way to get a random double feed would be to use a worn out magazine with spread feed lips.

Mike

jonconsiglio
09-03-11, 17:27
I want to be able to induce double feeds to practice clearing them. Is there a way to make it happen or do you have to set it up? I saw a youtube vid of Jason Falla(iirc) where he got one half through the mag. Is there a way to do that or was it just coincidence?

If im not able to induce one, how does it happen? Failure to eject, where the empty shell gets stuck up by the gas tube and fresh round partially in chamber? Thanks.

Setting up a double feed yourself is definitely a good way to practice but remember that a true double feed will not always be as easy to clear.

What I do is lock the bolt to the rear, tilt the barrel down, drop a round in the chamber, insert a mag then release the bolt. When clearing it, I lock the bolt to the rear and strip the mag while tilting the barrel up and rack the slide a couple times. In an induced double feed, this is usually an easy process as the round in the chamber will most likely fall out when the mag is stripped. In a true double feed. There's more work involved and sometimes you need to put your hand inside the magwell and wiggle the round loose.

So, I'd just take a GI mag, spread the feed lips a bit and let it happen on it's own. I have a couple older ones around with the black non anti-tilt followers around I might do that too and throw not the training mag mix.

Dave_M
09-03-11, 22:57
There are several ways:

1) When mags fail PMCS checks, I toss them in the, 'training' pile (noteworthy that mags will usually fail PMCS checks far before they actually give you double feeds). They will double at some point in time and that makes it less anticipated than physically inducing the failure though it can take a long time.

2) Consciously spread the feed lips on a magazine (or better, one that has already failed PMCS checks and is already in the training pile) in order to further along the inevitability of a double-feed--if you do it too much the round won't even 'take' and will just pop out so a little spreading at a time is best (this may take some experimentation). Bonus points if the magazine is discretely marked (but marked!)and you have a training buddy insert it in your rig (much like the practice of having a training buddy randomly insert a dummy round in a magazine).

3) Physically setup the double feed. For the, 'classic' double feed, here's what I do:
Lock the bolt to the rear
Insert a magazine with at least one round in it
Rotate the gun so the ejection port is facing up
Drop a loose round, in the proper direction, into the ejection port
Hit the bolt release

What you should have is a classic double feed, with the ends of two projectiles both attempting to enter the chamber at the same time. When attempting to clear this malfunction (when setup) one should get a solid sight picture and physically attempt to pull the trigger before going through the mechanisms of clearing the failure. Obviously it is easy to anticipate the failure, as you physically set it up, so adding as much realism as possible is paramount.

I personally find the second option to be the most ideal but not everyone has dedicated training partners.

CGSteve
09-04-11, 00:20
I would echo Dave M's option three, except I believe it can be done slightly differently without having to cant the weapon in any way.

1) Lock the bolt to the rear
2) Seat magazine with rounds loaded normally into magazine well
3) Place a single round on top of the magazine, do not actually insert the round into magazine, just sit it on top
4) Release bolt

This is going from memory. I believe it is how Mike Pannone teaches staging a traditional double feed.

Oh and +1 for going through all the motions, get a sight picture and try to bang one off before diagnosing and clearing malfunction.

NOTE: We staged all our malfunctions in our class using live ammunition. If you are not comfortable doing this, do not do it. Find another way.

Pax
09-04-11, 00:29
Just something to note... Whether using an old mag with worn feed lips or one you widened yourself... Identify your training mags. Mark them somehow. Tape, paint, sharpie, all of the above, whatever floats your boat. Make sure it's clear and compatible with any other mag ID system you're using. I burn my Pmag's ID numbers into their left sides with a soldering iron very lightly, so as not to compromise the structure but to leave a more permanent mark than any type of tape or ink could ever hope to. Then mags with worn springs that wont lock back get a bit of silver duct tape on their spines until I replace the springs. Training mags for me are easy to ID... They're the USGIs. But if you're using USGIs primarily... I dunno. Come up with something. Tape's probably easiest. Replaceable and non-permanent.

Lincoln7
09-04-11, 03:43
Not a stupid question, just the stupid person asking it: is there a possiblity that the incoming round could strike the primer of the chambered round with enough force to ignite it? I realize the previously mentioned disclaimer that most are working with live rounds for this drill which I don't have an issue with.

Failure2Stop
09-04-11, 15:48
You can also just pop out the ejector of a spare bolt.
Guaranteed double feeds.

Then again it will happen with every shot, so I wouldn't use it for anything but side by side double feed reduction. As it is, it is the most common double feed I see (once bad mags are pulled out of the mix), and getting that smashed spent round out of the lugs is good prom-night practice.

I have found that my 5.45 with some of my CProducts mags will double feed occasionally, which is good for work under stress if in the middle of a CoF, but that doesn't matter as much as the time put in on dedicated, staged reductions of inline and side by side double feeds. Those require no bad mags or altered components.

For "under stress" clearances with standardization I stage a few weapons throughout the course, all of which have some stoppage that needs to be reduced before engaging targets with them.

CAVDOC
09-04-11, 15:54
while not a true double feed a simple way to create a messy jam requiring clearing is to load a few empty cases in with your regular mag- they will get jammed up in the upper and require a mag removal clearing experience.

Failure2Stop
09-04-11, 16:12
while not a true double feed a simple way to create a messy jam requiring clearing is to load a few empty cases in with your regular mag- they will get jammed up in the upper and require a mag removal clearing experience.

Lots of people do this, but the only stoppage it teaches people to clear is "filled magazine with a handful of empty cases".
It makes the shooter think and work though, if that's your goal.

MegademiC
09-04-11, 23:19
Thank you for all the helpful replies. Got some stuff to work on next time at the range.

I havent had a malfunction yet, but know its only a matter of time, so I figured now's the time to make ready... rather than in the middle of some drill, and just look at my dead gun like an idiot. Haha.

What other malfuctions would take more action than tap-rack that I should practice? Everything I can think of right now would be cleared just by working the action.

CGSteve
09-07-11, 00:57
You can take a pair of pliers with you to the range and crimp some spent casings to simulate a locked bolt where you would have to mortar the weapon to free it. I wouldn't do this one too many times as you could probably beat the shit out of your rifle. Make sure your stock is collapsed if you have an adjustable one for this.

You can also stage a different variation of a double feed by inverting the rifle and putting a round in the charging handle channel and then release the bolt with a magazine inserted.