View Full Version : My dad just witnessed a mass-shooting in Carson City
kaltesherz
09-06-11, 12:59
http://www.rgj.com/article/20110906/NEWS01/110906010/Report-seven-shot-inside-Carson-City-IHOP?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|FRONTPAGE
My dad just called me to say he witnessed a mass-shooting at a restaurant he had just walked out of after having breakfast. According to him a guy in his 30's who appeared very calm pulled out an AK and opened fire on people in the parking lot and then walked into the building, firing on full auto. He said the guy ran just past him (after the first shots he hid behind cover and the gunman didn't see him), and that he was extremely close to the shooter. When I found the attached article and told him 7 had been shot I think it finally sank in... he said he saw him firing a lot but didn't see anyone go down, then again when something as chaotic as that is going down you're not really paying attention.
I asked him "and you wonder why I carry?" and his response was "I thought about that as it was going on, if you were there you could have stopped it immediately". Hopefully my father will learn from this, get a permit, and start carrying the 1911 that I gave him a few years ago.
He had just finished his witness statement with local LE before he called me. I'm just glad he's ok but am sorry for the not-so-lucky victims.
Wow, this is unusual. Glad your father made it out just in time and had the good reaction to get behind cover instead of gawking.
Pretty unusual the shooter used a full auto AK. Going to be interesting to see who this guy is and his motivation for doing this. Can't imagine the terror of those inside as a breakfast at IHOP was instantly turned into carnage.
One of the anti-gun criticism of CCW is that if you were inside you would not have enough time to react, so what good is your pistol. But as your father's situation illustrates, if there are several people carrying then some will be inside and some outside and one or more of them may well have an opportunity to shoot the attacker in the back before he continues killing.
CarlosDJackal
09-06-11, 13:19
Glad your Dad is okay.
To those of us who carry this is a perfect example of why law-abiding citizens should be legally allowed to do so anywhere.
To the anti-gun crowd this will be just another bogus reason why they should ban all guns.
Therein lies the difference between Sheep and Sheepdog.
kaltesherz
09-06-11, 13:31
My father was an Infantryman in the Chilean Army back in the day and taken fire before, so his training just kicked in (thank god).
I asked him several times and he said he was sure the shooter was on automatic. 2 shots on semi, then the rest full auto. Said the guy looked "very normal" was "extremely calm" and "showed absolutely no expression".
Wow, this is unusual. Glad your father made it out just in time and had the good reaction to get behind cover instead of gawking.
Pretty unusual the shooter used a full auto AK. Going to be interesting to see who this guy is and his motivation for doing this. Can't imagine the terror of those inside as a breakfast at IHOP was instantly turned into carnage.
One of the anti-gun criticism of CCW is that if you were inside you would not have enough time to react, so what good is your pistol. But as your father's situation illustrates, if there are several people carrying then some will be inside and some outside and one or more of them may well have an opportunity to shoot the attacker in the back before he continues killing.
Wow. I'm glad to hear your dad is okay. If anything would motivate one to carry regularly, that would.
That said, if I'd been in your father's position AND had a weapon, given your description I'm not sure I would have involved myself. I would likely have done exactly what he did, weapon or not. It may sound callous but the mission statement (stolen) that informs my actions is "I want to come through this with a minimum of damage to me and mine". Everything is situational and it's possible I would have become involved anyway based on emotion or a sense of duty. I'd like to think, however that if I (and everyone I care about) had gotten out safely, I would have gotten a safe distance away, called the police and then let those paid to deal with this kind of stuff do so rather than take on the gunman myself. If the option was to engage in an "unnecessary" gunfight where the upside was saving people I don't know but with the possibility I left my son father-less, I know what I'd do every time. If that makes me uncaring, so be it.
Zacbol, I agree that most of us would e concerned to get to safety even if carrying. You never know how many more there are, and we are responsible for our own.
HOWEVER, the point of CCW is that if several people there and nearby were carrying then there are OPTIONS. People outside would at least have the option to come to the aid of others. Some outside might e friends or family coming in to meet loved ones and would surely come to their aid. And if some inside were carrying then one or two of them might have had the opportunity and reactions to put a stop to it.
Without CCW nobody has much of an option but to hide as best as possible and hope the shooter does not ferret you out.
A lone person carrying may or may not make any difference, but several people carrying makes it much more likely one of them inside the target area or outside it can and will take a shot. So much of the anti-CCW rhetoric focuses on just a single person CCW, when in fact the point is to have as many people carrying as possible to improve the odds against a surprise attack.
News item just starting to show as "Breaking News" but no article on foxnews.com
Magic_Salad0892
09-06-11, 13:54
Wow. I'm glad to hear your dad is okay. If anything would motivate one to carry regularly, that would.
That said, if I'd been in your father's position AND had a weapon, given your description I'm not sure I would have involved myself. I would likely have done exactly what he did, weapon or not. It may sound callous but the mission statement (stolen) that informs my actions is "I want to come through this with a minimum of damage to me and mine". Everything is situational and it's possible I would have become involved anyway based on emotion or a sense of duty. I'd like to think, however that if I (and everyone I care about) had gotten out safely, I would have gotten a safe distance away, called the police and then let those paid to deal with this kind of stuff do so rather than take on the gunman myself. If the option was to engage in an "unnecessary" gunfight where the upside was saving people I don't know but with the possibility I left my son father-less, I know what I'd do every time. If that makes me uncaring, so be it.
I understand this logic. 100%.
However, I must be stupid, because I would have gone in after this guy.
Something about a random dude walking into a restaurant shooting innocent people doesn't sit well with me, and if I were there (armed) I would have done all that was necessary of me to stop it. Plus. Element of surprise.
I also don't have kids, and don't have to worry about that.
OP: Glad your Dad's alright.
Glad to hear your Father is OK and prayers for the injuried. I'll be interested in how the wanna-be mass murderer ran the AK ( AK47 , WASR , AK74 , VZ58 or whatever ) that fast . Could be anything from bump firing to parts that he made in his garage.
Zacbol, I agree that most of us would e concerned to get to safety even if carrying. You never know how many more there are, and we are responsible for our own.
HOWEVER, the point of CCW is that if several people there and nearby were carrying then there are OPTIONS. People outside would at least have the option to come to the aid of others. Some outside might e friends or family coming in to meet loved ones and would surely come to their aid. And if some inside were carrying then one or two of them might have had the opportunity and reactions to put a stop to it.
Without CCW nobody has much of an option but to hide as best as possible and hope the shooter does not ferret you out.
A lone person carrying may or may not make any difference, but several people carrying makes it much more likely one of them inside the target area or outside it can and will take a shot. So much of the anti-CCW rhetoric focuses on just a single person CCW, when in fact the point is to have as many people carrying as possible to improve the odds against a surprise attack.
News item just starting to show as "Breaking News" but no article on foxnews.com
Oh, I am absolutely in no ways saying *not* to carry. I guarantee this incident will be used as more 'evidence' that guns are evil (The only article I found is full of that bullshit in the comments). That said, as guilty as the anti-gun folks are of twisting these tragic events into fodder for their belief system, I also sometimes think the pro-gun crowd goes through similar mental gymnastics by treating every shooting as a means by which to fantasize about playing hero. Again, I was not there, and I have no idea what I *would* have done, I have only my mission statement and scenarios I've played out in my head to give me some notion of what I might have done.
To me, it sounds like kaltesherz's father came through this as well as anyone could hope to--with his life. What he could/should have done if he had a weapon is a moral question each of us might answer differently.
As for more people being able to do 'more', I did a few repitions of a mock store robbery/shooting in a tactics class about a year ago. In each case each student was assigned a role known only to himself: aggressor, a normal person, a normal person with a gun, etc. No one knew who was good or bad and many people on both sides had weapons. In many cases, the 'good' folks ended up shooting eachother in the confusion. Or they shot the bad guy before they had determined he had an accomplice and then were shot themselves. I'm not saying it means not to do anything or it's any kind of argument against carrying, I just foudn it an *interesting* data point. For my part, whenever possible as soon as I noticed something 'weird' I tried to leave. That's my plan for real life too. If that doesn't work, if someone needs shot, they need shot.
I think we can all agree this was an absolute tragedy and it's unfortunate none of those who had no choice of escaping did not have a weapon to take care of this piece of crap. I'm only arguing about whether one should involve himself if he'd already escaped. I like to think I would not, but I don't know.
4x4twenty6
09-06-11, 14:17
Just saw it on the news. Glad your father is alive and safe. The death toll is now up to 3. Very Very sad. They think the victims are National Guard Members.
I too would have engaged. No Doubt in my mind. I am confident in my ability as a marksmen and would do my best to stop the threat and reduce injury. Thats why i chose to be a cop. To face those others can not.
If you carry and have the ability to engage and save lives i cannot be sure why one would not do that. Isnt that why most folks carry, to serve as protector of themselves and others.
If a person cannot engage another then that is on them. It is their decision of course. Maybe you are with your family and decide not to engage because of fear you may direct fire towards you and yours, i can see that being a concern. But, who is to say they shooter is not there to execute everyone. Food for thought.
However, I must be stupid, because I would have gone in after this guy.
It is one thing to understand the risks and still be willing to climb out on that very thin limb for others. I don't blame anyone who won't, I won't criticize anyone who will.
I'd like to believe I'd be willing to do it. That said, taking on a 7.62 rifle with a 9mm handgun is a very tall order. But toss in a room full of women and kids and I can see lots of people who otherwise know better attempting some very stupid shit.
Are there any updates or other new information available from the media or witnesses like Mr. Kaltesherz ? This is a very interesting case and it usually takes some time for all of the the relevant facts to surface .
With 2 of the victims being military, I'm sure I'm not the only one hoping this wasn't a "Lone Wolf" type attack. :(
With 2 of the victims being military, I'm sure I'm not the only one hoping this wasn't a "Lone Wolf" type attack. :(
So far they aren't releasing details of the shooter.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/06/reports-7-shot-at-carson-city-ihop/
But I suspect many of us are wondering the same thing.
With 2 of the victims being military, I'm sure I'm not the only one hoping this wasn't a "Lone Wolf" type attack. :(
Yeah , the current case reminds me of the recruiting station wanna-be mass murderer in (IIRC ) Arkansas a few years ago. Unfotunately the wanna-be killed one young recruit and wounded another . No other good guys were hurt - but that was pure blind luck . The recruiting station station staff had no effective means to protect themselves or anyone else. They must have felt like fire department guys whose bosses refuse to allow fire extinguishers in cars and offices .
So far they aren't releasing details of the shooter.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/06/reports-7-shot-at-carson-city-ihop/
But I suspect many of us are wondering the same thing.
So far , the news reports seem to be above average . There are relevant facts flowing in a way that suggests some level of competent reporting . A couple of things jumped out at me :
At least 2 of the good guys who got hit were in uniform .
The murderer is wounded , in custody , and is not counted in the headline total of dead and wounded.
The reporting seems to be recognising possibilities , not jumping to conclusions , and avoided the usual newsie bullshit of lumping the dead or wounded dirtbags in with the " victims " .
Of course , some of the best newsies are veterans and/or National Guard/Reserve guys who have the right stuff to report on this type of incident.
So far , the news reports seem to be above average . There are relevant facts flowing in a way that suggests some level of competent reporting . A couple of things jumped out at me :
At least 2 of the good guys who got hit were in uniform .
The murderer is wounded , in custody , and is not counted in the headline total of dead and wounded.
The reporting seems to be recognising possibilities , not jumping to conclusions , and avoided the usual newsie bullshit of lumping the dead or wounded dirtbags in with the " victims " .
Of course , some of the best newsies are veterans and/or National Guard/Reserve guys who have the right stuff to report on this type of incident.
I'm not opposed to responsible journalism. But just as we don't care for unfounded sensationalism, I'm not terribly fond of suppression of facts that don't support an editorial bias.
I still remember many initial reports of the Ft. Hood shooting where they flatly stated it was not an act of Islamic terrorism.
ThirdWatcher
09-06-11, 16:23
I'd like to believe I'd be willing to do it. That said, taking on a 7.62 rifle with a 9mm handgun is a very tall order. But toss in a room full of women and kids and I can see lots of people who otherwise know better attempting some very stupid shit.
Active Shooters are cowards and they usually shoot themselves at the first sign of real resistance.
Belmont31R
09-06-11, 16:34
Intervening with your CCW with an active shooter is a very risky proposition, and a personal decision. Can't fault a person for looking out for their own neck especially if they have a family at home. Family comes first for me. For me it depends on the situation. Multiples with long guns and me with a pistol? No way. One dude I can shoot in the back? Easy shot and choice. This ain't 24 where people easily make 50 yard shots with pistols and the BG goes down with one hit and a SWAT team shows up at the right exact moment to save your skin when you need it.
Update :
A couple of other media sources are now reporting that the murderer has died.
I have read several articles thus far and no mention of full auto, yet. I would like to know for sure. Making an AK full auto isn't that easy unless you know exactly what you are doing.
Heard about this on the radio this morning.
It is one thing to understand the risks and still be willing to climb out on that very thin limb for others. I don't blame anyone who won't, I won't criticize anyone who will.
I'd like to believe I'd be willing to do it. That said, taking on a 7.62 rifle with a 9mm handgun is a very tall order. But toss in a room full of women and kids and I can see lots of people who otherwise know better attempting some very stupid shit.
Very thought provoking I'd say.
Intervening with your CCW with an active shooter is a very risky proposition, and a personal decision. Can't fault a person for looking out for their own neck especially if they have a family at home. Family comes first for me. For me it depends on the situation. Multiples with long guns and me with a pistol? No way. One dude I can shoot in the back? Easy shot and choice. This ain't 24 where people easily make 50 yard shots with pistols and the BG goes down with one hit and a SWAT team shows up at the right exact moment to save your skin when you need it.
Army Chief
09-06-11, 17:30
Honestly, why don't these tortured souls just chug a 32-ounce bottle of Drano and save us all the headlines, the hysteria and the horror?
How exasperating.
AC
There's a fine line between heroes and fools. If I was able to intervene smartly I would do so. Otherwise I would try to be a good witness. Carson City is a nice place, it's too bad.
I'm not opposed to responsible journalism. But just as we don't care for unfounded sensationalism, I'm not terribly fond of suppression of facts that don't support an editorial bias.
I still remember many initial reports of the Ft. Hood shooting where they flatly stated it was not an act of Islamic terrorism.
Won't get any arguement from me about any of that . One of the things that bothered me about the Ft. Hood slaughter media coverage was the hoopla about who-deserves-credit-for-putting Major Dr. Whacko Murdering Scumbag on the ground and out of the murder business.
The two armed good guys who stopped the murdering on that day at in Texas had completely different demographics and completely different roles in the fight . In general , the media did a very poor job of sorting that issue out. There was a great deal of selective reporting , sensationism and all that . Some media outlets played that game ( IMO ) purely to get breathless dramatic stories out really fast and then stirred up as much contraversy as possible to create even more buzz about the story and boost their customer/consumer stats.
Switching gears , the next ( very inter-related ) issues might be :
How and/or why did Dr. Major Scumbag , Murderer , slip through the system and why and how was he blessed with so many helpless victims at exactly that time and place ?
In many places , at many other times , his wanna-be ass would have been on the ground -- bleeding out , beyond saving -- and lot more good guys would have gone to supper on schedule .
montanadave
09-06-11, 17:37
Honestly, why don't these tortured souls just chug a 32-ounce bottle of Drano and save us all the headlines, the hysteria and the horror?
How exasperating.
AC
No shit!
I can understand the desire to take one's own life. I cannot understand the desire to indiscriminately murder innocent people.
ETA: To the OP-- Sorry, forgot to say I'm thankful your father escaped unharmed.
4x4twenty6
09-06-11, 17:38
Belmont you bring up a good point about intervening with multiple attackers in an active shooter situation with just your side arm.
Police officers had to face heavily armed foes with just their pistol at one time and unfortunately for those injured and killed, those situations led to better armed police forces. It is sad that so many folks had to die before something was done in response to heavily armed assailants.
Who is to say if one person who is CC'ing engages the target that another wont join him? That would be awesome! More people CC'ing with good training could be highly effective. Imagine the type of positive media attention that would also get.(and negative of course) But those of us who are informed should consider what i said above.
Police are sometimes 2 to 10 minutes away and SWAT even longer!
A lot of dept's ride solo patrol too so if one car shows up all you may get is one officer who hopefully has a long gun.
Just a few ideas and instances i thought i would throw out there to spur some more opinions.
No shit!
I can understand the desire to take one's own life. I cannot understand the desire to indiscriminately murder innocent people.
ETA: To the OP-- Sorry, forgot to say I'm thankful your father escaped unharmed.
Give it time, we may find out if it was indiscriminate or not. Either way, it's a punk ass move on the shooters part.
OP, glad your dad is ok.
Littlelebowski
09-06-11, 17:56
Honestly, why don't these tortured souls just chug a 32-ounce bottle of Drano and save us all the headlines, the hysteria and the horror?
How exasperating.
AC
Exactly. Or inhale a 7.62x39mm....... God, it is frustrating, these cowards.
SW-Shooter
09-06-11, 18:50
I think we can all thank Soulja Boy for the shooting, it clearly was a shooting that targeted Armed Forces members, I believe everything else was collateral damage.
ThirdWatcher
09-06-11, 18:50
Intervening with your CCW with an active shooter is a very risky proposition, and a personal decision. Can't fault a person for looking out for their own neck especially if they have a family at home. Family comes first for me. For me it depends on the situation. Multiples with long guns and me with a pistol? No way. One dude I can shoot in the back? Easy shot and choice. This ain't 24 where people easily make 50 yard shots with pistols and the BG goes down with one hit and a SWAT team shows up at the right exact moment to save your skin when you need it.
I totally agree, except living with myself has always been the most important thing for me.
mskdgunman
09-06-11, 19:53
One mans opinion but when you strap on a weapon, either as an armed civilian or a LEO, you accept a certain responsibility with part of that being a duty to protect others not so armed in the event of imment life threatening danger. I know that some will say that thats what we (the cops) get paid for and thats true. We also have wives, husbands and children at the house we would all like to return to but we would also like you to return to yours. No situation is cut and dried but for those that carry, we do so with the stated purpose to protect life, ours among that. If we have the opportunity and the means to save a life (or several) and don't take it, we do a diservice to society and ourselves. As has been pointed out, most all LE agencies these days are single car units and, as has also been pointed out the cops usually get there after the fact except in rare occasions. Do we just stand by and watch while some wack-job murders a bunch of sheep whenwe have the capacity to end it quickly? I understand the desire to stay safe and to go home to our loved ones but I for one would have a hard time living with myself knowing that I had done nothing. I know that there are many here who feel the same way. As I said, one mans opinion.
To the OP, glad your Dad is ok. Thats a bad position to be in made even worse by being unarmed.
ThirdWatcher
09-06-11, 20:00
One mans opinion but when you strap on a weapon, either as an armed civilian or a LEO, you accept a certain responsibility with part of that being a duty to protect others not so armed in the event of imment life threatening danger. I know that some will say that thats what we (the cops) get paid for and thats true. We also have wives, husbands and children at the house we would all like to return to but we would also like you to return to yours. No situation is cut and dried but for those that carry, we do so with the stated purpose to protect life, ours among that. If we have the opportunity and the means to save a life (or several) and don't take it, we do a diservice to society and ourselves. As has been pointed out, most all LE agencies these days are single car units and, as has also been pointed out the cops usually get there after the fact except in rare occasions. Do we just stand by and watch while some wack-job murders a bunch of sheep whenwe have the capacity to end it quickly? I understand the desire to stay safe and to go home to our loved ones but I for one would have a hard time living with myself knowing that I had done nothing. I know that there are many here who feel the same way. As I said, one mans opinion.
To the OP, glad your Dad is ok. Thats a bad position to be in made even worse by being unarmed.
Make that two.
QuietShootr
09-06-11, 20:01
One mans opinion but when you strap on a weapon, either as an armed civilian or a LEO, you accept a certain responsibility with part of that being a duty to protect others not so armed in the event of imment life threatening danger. I know that some will say that thats what we (the cops) get paid for and thats true. We also have wives, husbands and children at the house we would all like to return to but we would also like you to return to yours. No situation is cut and dried but for those that carry, we do so with the stated purpose to protect life, ours among that. If we have the opportunity and the means to save a life (or several) and don't take it, we do a diservice to society and ourselves. As has been pointed out, most all LE agencies these days are single car units and, as has also been pointed out the cops usually get there after the fact except in rare occasions. Do we just stand by and watch while some wack-job murders a bunch of sheep whenwe have the capacity to end it quickly? I understand the desire to stay safe and to go home to our loved ones but I for one would have a hard time living with myself knowing that I had done nothing. I know that there are many here who feel the same way. As I said, one mans opinion.
To the OP, glad your Dad is ok. Thats a bad position to be in made even worse by being unarmed.
bullshit. If I'm not getting paid by the king, I have no responsibility for any of his subjects but my own. If they want me to take on that responsibility, they can pass a Good Samaritan law that shields an armed citizen from criminal and civil liability when they try to intervene in an action such as this. Until then, sorry about you and yours.
Y'all made this world. I just live in it.
If they want me to take on that responsibility, they can pass a Good Samaritan law that shields an armed citizen from criminal and civil liability when they try to intervene in an action such as this.
Anyone bringing this to a vote would get my full support. Latest news is 6 wounded, 3 murdered. A sad day for Nevada.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-06-11, 20:19
There's a fine line between heroes and fools. If I was able to intervene smartly I would do so. Otherwise I would try to be a good witness. Carson City is a nice place, it's too bad.
The only way I'd get in a fair fight with him is if I have to. Otherwise I'd fight dirty and unfair.
If I could posit a theory. He was just on a shooting rampage and he engaged the military guys in the thought that they might be armed. He started shooting before he went in, so I don't think it was military focused attack. Too bad the NG guys were probably the least likely to be armed?
Anyone bringing this to a vote would get my full support. Latest news is 6 wounded, 3 murdered. A sad day for Nevada.
A very sad day. 6 people wounded 3 dead.
Plus one murdering dirtbag who was captured and is either is badly wounded and in critical condition ... or... has already been dead for a number of hours. Whichever story turns out to be true , at least he won't be murdering anybody anytime soon. And the newies ( so far ) have not lumped him together with the victims to inflate the numbers.
theblackknight
09-06-11, 21:42
However, I must be stupid, because I would have gone in after this guy.
fuck no, hes gonna have to reload some time. Everytime i hear of a event like this I always think"wish I was there". Is this foolish?
4x4twenty6
09-06-11, 21:48
Not at all blackknight. I tend to feel the same way.
Mauser KAR98K
09-06-11, 21:52
Wow, small world. Glad your father is okay.
Blaze has a write up that is interesting. Their report says there was someone armed, but he never engaged the active shooter because "he had already gone inside," and noting that when he came out he wasn't going to go against him because of the AK 47.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ihop-gunman-identified-as-local-man-eduardo-sencion/
There was also another nut-job in WV who killed 5 as well. What the fuck is going on with the world?
VooDoo6Actual
09-06-11, 21:55
Crazy times indeed.
Glad you Dad is GTG.
Of course libtards will spin it to their anti-gun agenda whereby their manifesto has all control w/ Police State & zero human rights attached....
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-06-11, 22:38
Wow, small world. Glad your father is okay.
Blaze has a write up that is interesting. Their report says there was someone armed, but he never engaged the active shooter because "he had already gone inside," and noting that when he came out he wasn't going to go against him because of the AK 47.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ihop-gunman-identified-as-local-man-eduardo-sencion/
There was also another nut-job in WV who killed 5 as well. What the fuck is going on with the world?
I saw that too about the CCW'er. Pretty hard when you only have a handgun to run across a street, enter another building and engage someone with an AK. I think the guy took some rounds in his general direction for trying to see what was going on.
Honestly, why don't these tortured souls just chug a 32-ounce bottle of Drano and save us all the headlines, the hysteria and the horror?
How exasperating.
AC
Tell me about it. These are desperate hours for the people and families involved in this incident and I know the pain from first had experience. I had a family member murdered in a mugging in NYC some years ago. He gave up his wallet to five "youths" and they stabbed him anyway. There are real boogey men in this world, people. Keep alert, because if this crap can happen in an IHOP in Carson City, it can happen in your town too.
hard to say if I would engage someone ?
scenario you are their and so is some other guy maybe the typical mall ninja type ?
so you see a guy with a HK open fire on a few people so you engage and the guy who hears the guy shooting and only sees you firing a gun decides you are the bad guy and takes you down ? thinking WOW I got me a bad guy who was shooting at people ?
very well could happen that way
playing on the scenario of the guy not engaging across the street I think he did the right thing
the other way it could go down ?
you are in a parking lot with your family across the street and mall ninja boy 2 cars down decides to think he can save the day from that far and starts going at the guy and surely does draw his attention so now AK wacko has his attention and starts laying rounds down your way !!!!
again this is without being their without lots of knowing whats up but playing what ifs in my head at times to try to think how would I react for sure
now if I was in the IHOP and the guy busts in starts going at it ! then very good chance I am going to not just be a target but try to stop the threat but in the parking lot ? thats a tough one I hope I never have to face cause it could go so many ways
just glad the OP dad is OK
As a reserve deputy, I'd be duty bound to try and take action. I'm a fairly good pistol shot, but a guy actively firing an AK at unarmed civilians is not going to get any fairness from me. I'd wait till he had his back turned and engage him from the rear. Even I'm not stupid enough to go toe to toe in a pistol vs. rifle scenario. :(
Moose-Knuckle
09-07-11, 02:18
Gunman kills 3 at Nevada IHOP, including guardsmen
Five Nevada National Guard troops sitting together at the back of the restaurant were shot — two of them fatally. Another woman was also killed, and the gunman, 32-year-old Eduardo Sencion of Carson City, shot himself in the head and died at a hospital.
Witnesses and authorities described a frantic scene in the bustling business district, in which the shooter pulled into the large complex of retail stores and shops just before 9 a.m. in a blue minivan with a yellow "Support Our Troops" sticker on the back.
Sencion was born in Mexico and had a valid U.S. passport.
Furlong says they're analyzing the shooter's weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic.
http://news.yahoo.com/gunman-kills-3-nevada-ihop-including-guardsmen-004946980.html
A non-citizen targeting uniformed military personnel, I don't give a shit how the media, this oxygen thief’s family, or any other limp wrist try’s to spin this story. . .THIS WAS A PURPOSE DRIVEN ATTACK.
A non-citizen targeting uniformed military personnel, I don't give a shit how the media, this oxygen thief’s family, or any other limp wrist try’s to spin this story. . .THIS WAS A PURPOSE DRIVEN ATTACK.
Yeah... and could we stop hearing from family members about the mental health issues they always know the killer was having AFTER they've gone and killed a bunch of people?
kaltesherz
09-07-11, 03:03
I've been out all day so I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread yet, but I just wanted to make a couple quick comments.
Thanks for everyone's kind words regarding my dad. While I'm sure most of you are quite fond of your fathers, my dad and I are extremely close and he's really the only family member I have much of a connection with. He's in his late 60's and despite the fact he's in excellent heath, I know my time with him is limited... with that said if something would have happened to him I would've been devastated. Had he sat in that IHOP for 2 minutes longer he would have been in the center of it all, he was sitting right near/next to the Guardsmen who were shot and killed.
I know all about luck when it comes to combat, just didn't know it could happen to my dad in a friggin' IHOP after breakfast. Glad he's got it after all these years.
ThirdWatcher
09-07-11, 04:16
The only way I'd get in a fair fight with him is if I have to. Otherwise I'd fight dirty and unfair.
If there was any sense of "fairness" in this world, dirtbags wouldn't prey on innocent people. F*** fairness, as a sheepdog I have a duty to win a fight as soon as possible.
Furlong says they're analyzing the shooter's weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic.
Are these people idiots? Maybe they need to call someone who is smarter than they are. It takes all of about 30 seconds to look in the weapon and determine if it is full auto or not.
They could also look at the selector lever and detrmine if it goes into one position or two. It's not rocket science.
+1 .
A blind man can run a disconnector function check and get a clue.
:neo:
SeriousStudent
09-07-11, 20:58
Prayers sent for the fallen Guardsmen, and the others who were killed and wounded. May their families receive the strength and courage they need, during this dark hour.
Kaltesherz, I am pleased that your father was not injured. I know your own relief surpasses words.
And I hope the Devil has a special reception planned for the murderer, and it goes into overtime.
Moose-Knuckle
09-07-11, 23:13
Furlong says they're analyzing the shooter's weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic.
Are these people idiots? Maybe they need to call someone who is smarter than they are. It takes all of about 30 seconds to look in the weapon and determine if it is full auto or not.
They could also look at the selector lever and detrmine if it goes into one position or two. It's not rocket science.
Well you know the .gov. . .never let a good crisis go to waste. I'm sure Holder is going to spin this as an evil semi-automatic for further justification of firearm legislation on current "legal" arms.
http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/07/7651904-trying-to-track-the-ihop-guns-path-from-china
Looks like he used a pre-ban Norinco, of all things. Still no word on whether he'd converted it or not.
GermanSynergy
09-07-11, 23:30
Tell me about it. These are desperate hours for the people and families involved in this incident and I know the pain from first had experience. I had a family member murdered in a mugging in NYC some years ago. He gave up his wallet to five "youths" and they stabbed him anyway. There are real boogey men in this world, people. Keep alert, because if this crap can happen in an IHOP in Carson City, it can happen in your town too.
Sage advice. Very sorry for your loss, sir.
My lady friend used to freak out when I would CCW, but after a series of muggings and a stabbing in her AO, she's not nearly as apprehensive about it anymore. Time to get her trained, armed and a CCW.
4x4twenty6
09-07-11, 23:39
My dads best friend was murdered 7 months after he retired from NOPD. 30 years he survived with that dept. and was followed home from lowes by two thugs who saw his rolex. They shot him in front of his house and he stopped them from making entry by returning fire and hitting one of them. Unfortunately he succumbed to his injuries.
He was in running shorts and was carrying a .22 derringer that my dad and another friend all bought together because it was easy to conceal.
I was 17 when it happened and that one incident really changed the way i feel about a lot of things and people for that matter.
You have to protect yourself because you never know who is watching and preying.
Furlong says they're analyzing the shooter's weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic.
Are these people idiots? Maybe they need to call someone who is smarter than they are. It takes all of about 30 seconds to look in the weapon and determine if it is full auto or not.
They could also look at the selector lever and detrmine if it goes into one position or two. It's not rocket science.
What they meant to say was "we're stalling for time to decide the best way to spin this to suit our agenda".
Correct me if I'm wrong-
If it's a legal full-auto somebody's going to have some serious explaining to do.
If it's an illegal auto, that's just means he's an out and out criminal like probably most folks here would say.
I'd be willing to bet it's a standard run'o the mill semi- and if it has some extra parts (maybe even homemade :rolleyes:) that just fits the bill even better. The other options are to easy, and provide them with no effective way to demonize the gun type and it's owners.
ztf HITMAN
09-08-11, 00:36
OP: Glad your Dad's OK Bro.
4×4: Sorry for your loss Bro. I make sure I'm sufficiently armed in NOLA. Too many low-life's.
Sent from my ZTF Com1 Device using Tapatalk.
What they meant to say was "we're stalling for time to decide the best way to spin this to suit our agenda".
Correct me if I'm wrong-
If it's a legal full-auto somebody's going to have some serious explaining to do.
If it's an illegal auto, that's just means he's an out and out criminal like probably most folks here would say.
I'd be willing to bet it's a standard run'o the mill semi- and if it has some extra parts (maybe even homemade :rolleyes:) that just fits the bill even better. The other options are to easy, and provide them with no effective way to demonize the gun type and it's owners.
can see the press now thinking ???????
the gun was a semi auto machine gun with a clip that holds 30 bullets that is meant for war and killing people only and thats just what he did ! if we get these guns made illegal this wont happen anymore
I dont write well but thats the spin I am sure and while they get terms wrong they wont care the anti base wont care and nobody will be able to give their side to correct them ? thats the sad thing
4x4twenty6
09-08-11, 01:18
If there is ANY place you want to carry it is in a city like New Orleans.
If i go out for some strange reason in the city i carry concealed in bars. I dont fucking care about what the law says cuz the walk to and from where you are going can get hairy in places like the french quarter.
A lot of people might not agree with that, but when i do that i usually dont drink much if at all cuz i am too damn paranoid to have a good time.
Also, thanks for the kind words i appreciate it.
Thomas M-4
09-08-11, 01:27
If there is ANY place you want to carry it is in a city like New Orleans.
If i go out for some strange reason in the city i carry concealed in bars. I dont fucking care about what the law says cuz the walk to and from where you are going can get hairy in places like the french quarter.
A lot of people might not agree with that, but when i do that i usually dont drink much if at all cuz i am too damn paranoid to have a good time.
Also, thanks for the kind words i appreciate it.
Sorry off topic a little.
My cousin got held up at a ATM in New Orleans a few yrs ago.
Said he had pulled some cash out for the bars and turned around to leave and there was a guy with a pistol that held him up. Luckily the guy just took his cash and left.
Gotta LUV the irony:
http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/07/7651904-trying-to-track-the-ihop-guns-path-from-china
Looks like he used a pre-ban Norinco, of all things. Still no word on whether he'd converted it or not.
So this misguided yute was using one of those dreaded cheap pre-ban Chicom yellow peril Joe Stalin machine guns that are expensive now instead of a cheap Croatian WASR imported through Gvatemalea by CAI to supprt operation F & F ( Southeast phase ). And properly stamped , 922r'ed and preped for sale by drunken monkey undocumented workers ( OK , some are just stoned on Turk hash ) hired by Mr. Poindexter M. T. Suit so they could send money home to starving children in Honduras.
I thought that the AWB of 1994 was supposed to ban all AR's , AK's , MP43's and folding stock M1 Carbines . If it saved just one life it was worth it and do it for the children.
I am so confused --total BS/drivel overload .
Send lawyers , guns , and money to Sarah Brady. No , the NRA , SAF or the National Widlife Federation.
:help:
[B]
A non-citizen targeting uniformed military personnel.
I thought you had to be a citizen (even if duel) to get a passport issued from the U.S. or any other country?
kaltesherz
09-09-11, 01:12
I thought you had to be a citizen (even if duel) to get a passport issued from the U.S. or any other country?
You do. The shooter was a naturalized citizen.
Here's the problem. Anyone who has any time with an AK47 knows that it isn't very easy to convert one to full auto. If this guy had the brains to do it, I'd be surprised.
What they meant to say was "we're stalling for time to decide the best way to spin this to suit our agenda".
Correct me if I'm wrong-
If it's a legal full-auto somebody's going to have some serious explaining to do.
If it's an illegal auto, that's just means he's an out and out criminal like probably most folks here would say.
I'd be willing to bet it's a standard run'o the mill semi- and if it has some extra parts (maybe even homemade :rolleyes:) that just fits the bill even better. The other options are to easy, and provide them with no effective way to demonize the gun type and it's owners.
Here's the problem. Anyone who has any time with an AK47 knows that it isn't very easy to convert one to full auto. If this guy had the brains to do it, I'd be surprised.
I thought you just shaved the firing pin down. :rolleyes: Just kidding.
As for the gun...
I still can't understand that no one, NO ONE on scene can do a function check? Takes all of 10 seconds.
1. Remove all ammo and set safety to the auto position.
2. Charge the rifle, setting the hammer.
3. Pull and remain pulling the trigger.
3. While trigger is still pulled, reciprocate the charging handle.
4. Release trigger.
5. Pull trigger, if hammer is already down, it's full auto. If it's not, it's semi.
No need to inspect parts, check for a third pin, see if the assailant owned a dremmel tool (hehe)
Works the same for all closed bolt autos, doesn't it?
How is that so hard? Is it just that there are so few people that interact with guns to know the difference? I'll stop speaking to the choir now.:D
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 15:23
Its not that simple, you cant just walk over and start finger fucking a rifle that was just used to kill multiple people.
There is a lot that goes into a homicide investigation and may not go hands on with the rifle to do a check like that for a day or twoor possibly longer. There is forensic shit they have to do with it before they can start doing ballistic tests.
I promise they are going to follow SOP and chain of custody type stuff to the T because of severity of the incident.
Its not that simple, you cant just walk over and start finger fucking a rifle that was just used to kill multiple people.
There is a lot that goes into a homicide investigation and may not go hands on with the rifle to do a check like that for a day or twoor possibly longer. There is forensic shit they have to do with it before they can start doing ballistic tests.
I promise they are going to follow SOP and chain of custody type stuff to the T because of severity of the incident.
Good point, thanks. Didn't think about that part. *Turn signal back into my lane.*
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 15:43
I apologize if it came off harsh, it wasn't intended too.
A run of the mill shooting where a gun is recovered it is faster with no injuries , crime scene can do their thing in a matter of a few minutes sometimes and from their w/ gloves on we can go do what we gotta and handle the weapon without damaging any existing evidence.
That incident is gonna be handled very delicately though.
Homicides are usually pretty involved cuz they gotta take so many photos and measurements and there are all kinds of fucking people there doing different jobs. I have had to sit on crime scenes for a full 8 hour shift. Fucking awful.
I apologize if it came off harsh, it wasn't intended too.
Not at all... I was clearly out of my lane.
Out of curiousity- since it has been a while since I have done LE type work and even longer since I took Crime Scene Investigations 101. Is it going to be the same procedure when the assailant is known and deceased? Common sense would dictate that there would be deviations based upon the totality of the circumstances.
The weapon was obviously found on scene, as was the gunman. As long as they maintain proper chain of custody, why couldn't it be examined by "experts" while it is at the S.O or PD? We aren't building a nuclear device or a satellite based weapon.
Its not that simple, you cant just walk over and start finger fucking a rifle that was just used to kill multiple people.
There is a lot that goes into a homicide investigation and may not go hands on with the rifle to do a check like that for a day or twoor possibly longer. There is forensic shit they have to do with it before they can start doing ballistic tests.
I promise they are going to follow SOP and chain of custody type stuff to the T because of severity of the incident.
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 16:42
I am by no means a crime scene tech but There are ways they can further check for DNA on the weapon. While a simple swipe may suffice on a found weapon on the crime scene where no one was injured; They may try to get more DNA from each part, each round etc.
Let's face it they are going to pull out all the stops on such a violen act.
Something must have gotten lost in translation. I was just referring to the assertion that they can't just examine the weapon and tell if it is fully auto based upon what you pointed out.
It seems to me that it shouldn't take days to make such a determination. If chain of custody is being followed, and in this case where the perp isn't going to trial, it would seem that they could simply take the weapon into a lab or examining area and check the weapon. It's fairly simple and if my knuckle dragging ass can figure it out rather quickly, I would think some HSLD techno-weenie/ examiner could do the same.
I am by no means a crime scene tech but There are ways they can further check for DNA on the weapon. While a simple swipe may suffice on a found weapon on the crime scene where no one was injured; They may try to get more DNA from each part, each round etc.
Let's face it they are going to pull out all the stops on such a violen act.
4x4twenty6
09-09-11, 18:09
Dont go giving law enforcement too much credit, they may let you down. haha.
I did miss read the question i apologize.
If it is clearly indicated on the rifle then of course but if it was home made then they would have to manipulate the rifle further, you guys are probably more familiar with an AK than i am as far as the inner workings. I havent handled them very much to consider myself actually knowledgeable.
They could be stalling for an unknown reason.
There could be a shit ton of blood on the rifle also stopping them from figuring if it is semi or full auto.
I can gaurantee with all the fast and furious stuff going then may be babying a little more than usual and checking serial numbers and all kinds of other stuff.
To elaborate more on what i said in my previous post, cuz i was in the gym and the response was half ass...
A crime scene tech can do a quick swipe of the grip, trigger, and slide to get dna with out really having to do much manipulation. It can be taken further if necessary.
In this case they may want to see what/if any prints where on the gun and if it was handled by more than one individual prior to the incident.
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