View Full Version : Cop shoots himself at training
just got this. What's with LEO's and accidents?
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/nov/10/county-officer-shoots-self-firearms-training-cours-ar-1451258/
County officer shoots self at firearms training course
By: Daily Progress Staff Reports
Published: November 10, 2011
An Albemarle County police officer was transported to the University of Virginia Medical Center with non life-threatening injuries after accidentally shooting himself in the hand at an annual firearms training course Thursday afternoon at the Rivanna Rifle and Pistol Club.
The officer was preparing to clean his handgun when he unintentionally fired a bullet into his left hand around 4 p.m.
“The important message for everyone is that firearms should be handled with extreme care all the time,” Sgt. Darrell Byers said.
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This happened at the club I was just elected into the Board of Directors into and we just received the first report from the Police Department about it. Here are the facts as they were presented:
- The Officer pulled the trigger in preparation to field stripping his issued handgun (Glock 22).
- The round entered his left hand through the fleshy part of his thumb joint (basically the palm) and traversed semi-diagonally and exited out the side of his palm below the small pinky. No bone was hit and he is back on light duty and may be back on street patrol in a week or two.
- After exiting the officer's hand, the bullet traversed through a closet and exited an interior wall putting a dent in a steel cabinet that sat on an adjacent room. Noboyd else was injured in the incident.
- The department had just transitioned to Glock 22s from HK USPs which they carried for about 11-years.
- The ammunition was .40 S&W FMJ (training and practice ammo - not sure what make but I believe they are using Federal HRT for duty).
- The Officers had just conducted training at an outdoor range that is on another part of club property. The Officers had to get into their vehicles to drive to the clubhouse where they normally clean their weapons.
- The handgun was supposed to have been cleared prior to leaving the shooting line at the outdoor range. The ongoing investigation should determine if this was accomplished or not.
- Their training is taken directly from the Glock Training.
- The clearing process they were trained in were as follows (while adhering to the rules of gun safety):
1) Remove magazine from the weapon.
2) Rack the slide at least three times - counting each rack loudly.
3) Lock the slide open.
4) Visually and digitally clear the chamber.
5) Release the slide.
6) (While pointing in a safe direction) pull the trigger.
- The Officers were also trained to follow the facility policy which specifically disallows the handling of a loaded firearm where the ND occurred. NOTE: It is still unknown at which point the round ended up in the chamber of the pistol and why. This should be determined by the ongoing investigation.
- The department already adheres tot he strict process of unloading their weapons at an Indoor Range (attached to the clubhouse) under the observation of an FI prior to starting training. They also load in the same range prior to leaving for the club.
What may have happened:
- The FIs failed to properly clear the weapon involved off the line OR the Officer loaded his handgun when he entered his cruiser out of habit and forgot that he did so. No other viable scenarios are available.
- The Officer was probably distracted while he was field stripping his weapon for cleaning and he forgot to take the proper steps to clear it.
What the Department is implementing or is considering the follow to prevent future occurrence.
- They are implementing the use of a barrel flag while at the range.
- They are looking at changing their weapons clearing procedure to include a second FI off the firing line (as conducted in most military ranges).
I'm glad the Officer is fine and nobody got hurt. But this is one case where stupid does hurt. To the credit of the department, they have been very proactive in addressing the issue from the get go.
In the "What may have happened:" they should add, "The officer did not clear his weapon"
Instead of racking it 3 times they should rack it once and look, what are the other 2 times supposed to do??
All kidding aside, I would think this was a complacency or distraction/tired issue. At the end of the day some people can be exhausted, and that's when things go bad.
I had a woman student once. She had been clearing her pistol all day long when I told her "unload and show clear". Late afternoon I gave the same command, what did she do? yank on the trigger!! Freak me out to say the least. I was pissed. She took a break after that. It's really inclredible how quickly things can happen.
R.
Like I was Taught in the Military and even before then .I ALWAYS visibly look into the chamber to make sure it is unloaded , as this report Proves it only takes a second of stupid to mess your day up
- The Officer pulled the trigger in preparation to field stripping his issued handgun (Glock 22).
Ah, Glock induced hole-in-hand-syndrome. :eek:
Kidding aside, putting your hand over the muzzle of a gun and pulling the trigger to slide the barrel forward - REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY TIMES I DID MY SAFETY ROUTINE - does not compute for me.
It's just a really bad habit, which on the rare case one does not go through the full process, ends as above.
Full safety check, put hand on top of slide, pull trigger (if gun requires it to remove slide) while pointing gun in safe direction, is the only way I ever do it or did it, and that does not change with gun.
I have seen many put their palm of hand over muzzle and pull trigger to remove Glock slide. It's not an uncommon habit :eek:
Even saw someone do a press check that way!!!!!
I know I'm preaching to the converted and all, but just wanted to get it out.
Singlestack Wonder
11-18-11, 17:48
"after accidentally shooting himself in the hand at an annual firearms training course"
Pretty much sums up the common issue with most LE departments.
Regardless of whether or not it was annual training common sense tells you to ENSURE that the weapon is unloaded before hand.
This is especially important with Glock pistols that require pulling the trigger first.
Here's what I would do.
1. After a shooting evolution while everyone is on the range I would have all shooters line up, unload and clear.
2. A buddy check would be performed and then with the weapon pointed down range have them pull the trigger and holster.
3. Then to be extra sure there would be a clearing barrel at the exit of the range or near the cleaning area. All personnel would be required to clear their weapons again with a Safety Officer or RSO verifying that they are safe and clear.
What I found interesting is that they think that just by running the slide a number of times that will clear the pistol. IMO it shows a lack of proper training, if the extractor is not working you can run the slide till you’re blue in the face, it just won’t clear the pistol. All one has to do is visually inspect the chamber once and you’re done.
It’s like the people that sit there and run the slide 10 times really fast because it sounds cool, it’s doing nothing to clear that pistol and put it in a safe condition.
"after accidentally shooting himself in the hand at an annual firearms training course"
Pretty much sums up the common issue with most LE departments.
Why? Are you suggesting this is the only time throughout the year they clear or load their weapons?
If they do like we do then all of the officers leave the line loaded and prepped for duty carry.
theblackknight
11-18-11, 18:27
Annual training=the only time he goes to the range.
What is the typical punishment for this with cop shops?
A lot of units here,a ND in training is a automatic NJP.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
"We" load and clear only at clearing barrels with a supervisor but I have no idea about civilian cops.
spring1271
11-18-11, 18:54
deleted
Glad to hear nobody else was hurt and the officer is relatively OK.
Instead of adding more bureaucratic complications to their firearms policies, which IMO only make goofball PowerPoint princes feel good, they should spend more time hammering the 4 rules into the officers heads. They should revisit their firearms training and verify that enough repetitions are included to insure that their officers are capable of doing most routine tasks with their "eyes closed". The whole annual training mentality also needs to be revisited. People need more than a once a year refresher to retain critical skills and IMO firearms skills are critical.
You guys are reading to much into "annual training."
It's a newspaper. It could be wrong.
And if it is annual training, it doesn't mean that's the only time he handles his weapon. He may have to qualify quarterly with refresher training tacked on, and then have a more in-depth training once a year..
But RickP is correct. It doesn't matter if he has weekly training if he's following poor procedures (ie not checking to ensure his chamber is clear.) I would bet anything he was taught to check his chamber, but got careless or got in the habit of relying on the racking of the slide multiple times, which as RickP points out is a mistake. Or he did chamber check when leaving the line, but forgot that he reloaded again before he decided to clean. (All the buddy checks and clearing barrels in the world wouldn't have mattered if that is what happened. But following the Rule #2 would have.)
As far as what is it with LEO and accidents, it's pretty simple. When they shoot themselves, it makes the paper. When some random poster from m4carbine.com or another board shoots himself, no one cares or finds out about it (unless he puts it on youtube.)
ProShooter
11-18-11, 20:16
All guns are always loaded.
Always point the gun in a safe direction.
Open the action, look, feel, and look again...
Simple, simple, simple.
Glad to hear nobody else was hurt and the officer is relatively OK.
Instead of adding more bureaucratic complications to their firearms policies, which IMO only make goofball PowerPoint princes feel good, they should spend more time hammering the 4 rules into the officers heads. They should revisit their firearms training and verify that enough repetitions are included to insure that their officers are capable of doing most routine tasks with their "eyes closed". The whole annual training mentality also needs to be revisited. People need more than a once a year refresher to retain critical skills and IMO firearms skills are critical.
The danger is when a task becomes automatic second nature we may tend to observe things as being the way we expect them to be rather than how the actually are. My opinion; when clearing or loading is that I need to slow down and make sure I am really "seeing" what I need to.
No offense to LE, but I know a lot of cops that scare the shit out of mean when they handle guns.
Before I was married I lived with two of my friends; a cop and a lawyer.
I had taken my cop friend to the range a few times and was shocked by his unsafe gun handling. I finally stopped taking him.
One day I come home from work and he is sitting on the couch with his hand wrapped in a bandage. Being the ball buster that I am, I immediately say "What, did you shoot yourself" (not REALLY thinking he did).
He looks at me, eyes wide open, and says "How'd you know!". The idiot shot himself clearing .22 pistol he pulled from a gang bangers car. He actually didn't clear it until he was back at the barracks and then used his left palm to push the slide back with his finger in the trigger guard...BANG.
He collected disability for 2 months.
Heavy Metal
11-18-11, 20:47
I cannot fathom any good reason to put part of my body over the muzzle of any firearm and pull the trigger. Just can't.
That's an excellent point. There needs to be visual and if possible physical checking of the chamber.
When I was in the Army we used to have everyone place their weapons on safe, lock the bolt to the rear and then rod the M16 as they left the range. If something was on their it would be knocked out.
The same could be done with a pistol if necessary.
What I found interesting is that they think that just by running the slide a number of times that will clear the pistol. IMO it shows a lack of proper training, if the extractor is not working you can run the slide till you’re blue in the face, it just won’t clear the pistol. All one has to do is visually inspect the chamber once and you’re done.
It’s like the people that sit there and run the slide 10 times really fast because it sounds cool, it’s doing nothing to clear that pistol and put it in a safe condition.
A few years ago I was at a multi-department training when a SWAT cop shot himself in the foot with a M4, didn't clear his weapon after the day's training. It amazes me how laziness breeds complacency.
What's with LEO's and accidents?
I know more cops who aren't "gun people" than are.
Annual training programs are a law suit away from becoming more frequent. There is no way you can train someone once a year and develop anything that remotely looks like skill.
The guys who get it train on their own.
A few years ago I was at a multi-department training when a SWAT cop shot himself in the foot with a M4, didn't clear his weapon after the day's training. It amazes me how laziness breeds complacency.
What the hell was he doing, walking around with his M4 in hand pulling the trigger???
Forget the fact that I don't understand that behavior, but this is a SWAT officer, and I know enough to know that those 4 letters don't mean squat, but it should.
R.
It amazes me how laziness breeds complacency.
Repetition without incident breeds complacency.
Skintop911
11-19-11, 22:51
Familiarity breeds complacency.
Cold ranges and clearing barrel mentalities exacerbate problems, not solve them.
Lack of definitive discipline and retraining following LE ND's makes such incidents a club of sorts, rather than a learning opportunity for others.
Alaskapopo
11-19-11, 23:31
just got this. What's with LEO's and accidents?
R.
Unfortunately we have the idiots in our ranks too. Also as a rule we generally have less accidents than the public at large. The thing is when an LEO does screw up there is always someone out there like yourself to point it out and try to make it seem like a trend.:rolleyes:
Pat
Unfortunately we have the idiots in our ranks too. Also as a rule we generally have less accidents than the public at large. The thing is when an LEO does screw up there is always someone out there like yourself to point it out and try to make it seem like a trend.:rolleyes:
Pat
LE community as a whole does get more attention than the average joe blow civilian when there's an accident. As they should, your supposed to be trained professionals, right?!?!?:rolleyes:
I don't think the LE community needs our help to point out that you guys have accidents, you do that to yourselves when you have one.
As easily as these events come up to the surface, you would think that there would be a lot more of a "Professional attitude" to train and make sure you're not "THAT GUY"!!! on the news and essentially embarrassing the entire LE community, and the shooter himself.
Look at 2 popular accidents. The DEA guy discharging his weapon in a class room, A CLASS ROOM, come on!!!, now this guy at the end of the day cleaning his gun. The accidents aren't happening during high intensity training where adrenaline is flowing and stress is way up, it's happening during VERY VERY controlled parts of training.
The important part of this isn't the accident itself per say, but what people can get out of it from a learning perspective.
I would hope the community as a whole would look at these incidents to help identify shortcomings in their training or TTPs and not just revise procedures like adding another 5 slide racks to clear a system and/or installing a 20lbs trigger.
R.
Skintop911
11-20-11, 12:54
Here's the ugly truth on LE NDs: WE TEND TO TOLERATE THEM.
When I hear CLEOs complain about ND incidents in their agencies, I ask them how many reassignments, hours of retraining, disciplinary actions, and days on the beach they gave folks who had NDs. I mostly get blank stares. Instead, the LE community seems mostly to yoke and joke about it, maybe someone gets a letter in their file, and you "join the club." The next guy in line then expects what the last one got, and the cycle continues.
The only ones that seem to get meaningful consequence are those that end up in the news or other high profile venue, and the agency is forced to take more definitive action.
Seems to me it is just neglect of necessary care and due diligence, plan and simple. Question to me would be is it a lack of proper training from the department where they do not enforce and/or stress proper policies enough making accidents waiting to happen due to "their end" or is it an individual who either visited or is a member of the dumb ass club.
If they are an individual just incapable of meeting the safety levels then action should focus on not having them in that position (none firearm carrying). If there is honest to goodness not knowing what he was doing then the department should stress basic safety better. Suppose if they wanted to go all out then there can be extra measures put in place to prevent this such as babysitting from range masters, buddy systems, etc.
Alaskapopo
11-20-11, 23:21
LE community as a whole does get more attention than the average joe blow civilian when there's an accident. As they should, your supposed to be trained professionals, right?!?!?:rolleyes:
.
Its obvious your about as professional as the DEA agent your making fun of in that quote.l. Every profession has its screw ups and some on here are anti leo and love pointing out any flaws and mistakes they can find. As for ND's there are a more in the military and on public gun ranges and in peoples homes than are ever committed by LEO's. Learning from mistakes is one thing but to point out every single screw up that one group has done just shows an agenda. The simple fact is ND's are far more common with all groups than people want to admit. Training is the key not pointing fingers.
Pat
Its obvious your about as professional as the DEA agent your making fun of in that quote.l. Every profession has its screw ups and some on here are anti leo and love pointing out any flaws and mistakes they can find. As for ND's there are a more in the military and on public gun ranges and in peoples homes than are ever committed by LEO's. Learning from mistakes is one thing but to point out every single screw up that one group has done just shows an agenda. The simple fact is ND's are far more common with all groups than people want to admit. Training is the key not pointing fingers.
Pat
Now how do you know this about the military?
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 00:09
Now how do you know this about the military?
I don't live in a vaccum. I have friends who are serving and who are firearms instructors and a lot of cops are former military. There is a reason why many are not allowed to carry hot guns inside the base even in a combat zone. (depends on the unit)
Pat
I don't live in a vaccum. I have friends who are serving and who are firearms instructors and a lot of cops are former military. There is a reason why many are not allowed to carry hot guns inside the base even in a combat zone. (depends on the unit)
Pat
Yeah that's it.
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 00:49
Yeah that's it.
Yea pretty much. Also the reason why MP's don't carry with a hot chamber in their pistols.
Pat.
Yea pretty much.
Pat.
Yeah pretty much no facts
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 00:52
Yeah pretty much no facts
Not quite. You pretty much have your head in the sand. I am not slaming the military like the OP was slaming LEO's, rather just pointing out its a far more common problem that people want to admit.
Pat
Discipline? I'd be shocked if this didn't end with a medical.
The real reason why most troops cannot carry hot weapons inside the confines of a FOB/COB has nothing to do with this conversation.
The real reason is that almost all branches of the military are risk adverse especially the officers. It won't look good on your OER/ Eval Report if a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine shoots himself on accident.
There are many who believe that the dangers posed by hot weapons inside the wire is more than the danger of not having weapons ready.
In the Coast Guard anytime you carry a pistol for duty it is carried loaded chamber, loaded magazine and safety off in a holster. It's what we call a "standard method of carry".
All long guns have loaded magazines, empty chambers and are safe. To include shotguns. They are locked and loaded when a threat is imminent or when directed by the unit commander.
I personally believe that if people were made to carry hot weapons and people had the safety rules pounded into their heads then we wouldn't have as many accidents.
I don't live in a vaccum. I have friends who are serving and who are firearms instructors and a lot of cops are former military. There is a reason why many are not allowed to carry hot guns inside the base even in a combat zone. (depends on the unit)
Pat
Not quite. You pretty much have your head in the sand. I am not slaming the military like the OP was slaming LEO's, rather just pointing out its a far more common problem that people want to admit.
Pat
And where's yours? This incident shouldn't be used to smear LEOs or everyone in DoD. Until you have all the stats you're just blowing smoke.
And where's yours? This incident shouldn't be used to smear Leos or everyone in DOD. Until you have all the stats you're just blowing smoke.
I totally agree. Regardless of profession, ALL human beings F-up, no matter how highly trained they are. The difference is, the higher the training level, the lower the percentage of F-ups. There is no miracle cure, just the striving for in-grained, subconscious safety, via repetitious training.
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 02:23
The real reason why most troops cannot carry hot weapons inside the confines of a FOB/COB has nothing to do with this conversation.
The real reason is that almost all branches of the military are risk adverse especially the officers. It won't look good on your OER/ Eval Report if a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine shoots himself on accident.
There are many who believe that the dangers posed by hot weapons inside the wire is more than the danger of not having weapons ready.
In the Coast Guard anytime you carry a pistol for duty it is carried loaded chamber, loaded magazine and safety off in a holster. It's what we call a "standard method of carry".
All long guns have loaded magazines, empty chambers and are safe. To include shotguns. They are locked and loaded when a threat is imminent or when directed by the unit commander.
I personally believe that if people were made to carry hot weapons and people had the safety rules pounded into their heads then we wouldn't have as many accidents.
The risk they are adverse to is negligent shootings. I agree all gun should be carried loaded and those carrying them should be trained to a level where they can handle that. Point being is the miltiary has had its share of ND's too its not just a LEO thing.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 02:25
And where's yours? This incident shouldn't be used to smear LEOs or everyone in DoD. Until you have all the stats you're just blowing smoke.
Stats yea their is someone collecting those for all military and LEO ND's. Yea right, neither side wants that information out. Both would rather just pretend it did not happen and move on. However I am sure you know of plenty from your own experience in the military. I also know of LEO ND's. I do agree this incident should not be used to smear any group rather it be LEO's or DoD. I am just sick and tired of people slamming cops as a whole any time they get a chance based on the mistakes of the few.
Pat
Generalpie
11-21-11, 07:54
Another piece of sage advice.
Follow the rules and all is well. I know of someone who had one of those rem 700 magical discharges. Because he was following safe handling procedures the only thing with a hole blown into it was the ground. Well that and possibly a couple pairs of undershorts from the group he was standing with.
Any slip up on the rules in that case would have been really really bad.
I personally believe that if people were made to carry hot weapons and people had the safety rules pounded into their heads then we wouldn't have as many accidents.
IMO it's also a matter of mindset. On one hand, some that carry everyday just don't have it, and the only reason they carry is by default of the position.
The other is complacency, and that comes with the more experience and comfort we develop.
Either way if one doesn't use their head when manipulating weapons it probably only a matter of time before an accident happens.
BTW, Alaskapopo, be smart and don't assume. OK. Don't be "THAT"internet guy!!! I'm not anti LE, I'm anti non professionalism of being responsible for others well being and possibly not having a clue how to use the tools that are so important to do that job, wether LE, or military or civilian. I wont even mention how he's a liability to the other officers and innocent people around him. So if an individual happens to be that type of guy, then maybe he deserves a little embarrassment. Maybe then he'll pull his head out of his six, learn the tools of the trade and become an asset instead of being a liability.
BTW, don't ever assume Im anti LE. I have more friend in LE than aren't and I support everything they do. You don't know me so don't think you do. Are we straight??
R.
Personally if people come off as "anti-LE" I would not be surprised if it often has something to do with the pedestal treatment LE (the DoD for that matter) get as being gun users when really they can run the range of competent and skilled to retarded and horrible just like anyone else. I think there is some resentment in a fair number of individuals because they don't get fair acknowledgment for what they can do while those who don't deserve acknowledgment get it just because of a job affiliation.
In general I wouldn't doubt civilians take a higher % of NDs, followed by the DoD and LE. Goes largely without saying that Joe Shmoe civilian gun owner is often below the standards of even firing 50 rounds annually and pretty much runs amok with little to no training and supervision even though it doesn't take that much to be safe. Which is higher of the DoD and LE is a hard call without some statistical backing for me, both have certain issues going on that could lead to "bad apples".
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 13:32
IMO it's also a matter of mindset. On one hand, some that carry everyday just don't have it, and the only reason they carry is by default of the position.
The other is complacency, and that comes with the more experience and comfort we develop.
Either way if one doesn't use their head when manipulating weapons it probably only a matter of time before an accident happens.
BTW, Alaskapopo, be smart and don't assume. OK. Don't be "THAT"internet guy!!! I'm not anti LE, I'm anti non professionalism of being responsible for others well being and possibly not having a clue how to use the tools that are so important to do that job, wether LE, or military or civilian. I wont even mention how he's a liability to the other officers and innocent people around him. So if an individual happens to be that type of guy, then maybe he deserves a little embarrassment. Maybe then he'll pull his head out of his six, learn the tools of the trade and become an asset instead of being a liability.
BTW, don't ever assume Im anti LE. I have more friend in LE than aren't and I support everything they do. You don't know me so don't think you do. Are we straight??
R.
Your post said "just got this. What's with LEO's and accidents?" It did not just say what is with this one cop who screwed up. You lumped us all in the same catagory much like your accusing me of lumping you into an Anti LEO catagory. Does not feel good does it. I don't know you but I do know your posts was extremely disrespectful.
Pat
Are you kidding me??? You need to grow some thick skin and stop crying.
My subject wasn't an assumption, so how is that the same??
The reason it was titled that was because he's not the only cop that has screwed up. Whether you like it or not, you need to face the fact that your community (as well as other) are very poorly trained, and the mindset some of you have towards training is as unprofessional as it can get to say the least. Again, not an assumption but a well established fact.
I can understand being a little touchy about it though, I mean having people within the tactical community look at you as possible liability or someone whom they need to stay 2 foot steps behind them at the range. At least until you prove otherwise, if you do.
R.
Alaskapopo
11-21-11, 14:26
Are you kidding me??? You need to grow some thick skin and stop crying.
My subject wasn't an assumption, so how is that the same??
The reason it was titled that was because he's not the only cop that has screwed up. Whether you like it or not, you need to face the fact that your community (as well as other) are very poorly trained, and the mindset some of you have towards training is as unprofessional as it can get to say the least. Again, not an assumption but a well established fact.
I can understand being a little touchy about it though, I mean having people within the tactical community look at you as possible liability or someone whom they need to stay 2 foot steps behind them at the range. At least until you prove otherwise, if you do.
R.
Your subject line lumped all cops together. As for thicker skin I can accept critism when I screw up but not for someone elses screw ups. The fact of the matter is the majority of officers are not screw ups as you implied and are quite safe with their firearms. You're branding an entire group based on the actions of a few.
Pat
Your subject line lumped all cops together. As for thicker skin I can accept critism when I screw up but not for someone elses screw ups. The fact of the matter is the majority of officers are not screw ups as you implied and are quite safe with their firearms. You're branding an entire group based on the actions of a few.
Pat
If you would have said basic military weapons training sucks, I wouldn't have gotten my panties in a bunch, It's true and a fact.
You're world must be different than mine then. Because the really squared away professionals about their training are in the minority here. And I'm only referring to firearms and training, as for general professionalism, no issues.
Skintop911
11-21-11, 22:27
Everybody take a deep breath.
What the hell was he doing, walking around with his M4 in hand pulling the trigger???
Forget the fact that I don't understand that behavior, but this is a SWAT officer, and I know enough to know that those 4 letters don't mean squat, but it should.
R.
End of the day, everyone was hot and tired, the team was getting in a van, he had a round in the chamber and his finger on the trigger. There were about a dozen people within 10 feet of him...glad he had his rifle pointed 'down' and not 'out'. You are right, he should have known better.
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