Article on pepper spray in Wired (which I think is idiotic)

[zacbol]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/pepper-spray-psychology/?intcid=story_ribbon

I posted this on FB with the comment

While I'm still not sure where I fall on the UC Davis incident and whether it was justified or not, OC does not cause permanent injury. Show me empirical evidence that it was the OC that killed the person mentioned in the article AND that it was not a freak, completely atypical reaction and I'll change my tune. OC is far, far more benign than what most officers would do in cases of non-compliance if they *didn't* have it. Be thankful they use pepper spray. If you want to disobey an order of police it doesn't matter if it's justified or not, be prepared for the consequences. If you're after civil disobedience have the courage of your convictions. Getting OC in the face is relatively mild as things considered. Don't be a fucking whiny pussy.


Someone then also posted this video on Tasers, which I had not previously seen:
http://youtu.be/5SCKjXCrB5A

To which I responded:

Interesting video. I think the points made by the brothers who own the company compelling. As with pepper spray, Tasers represent a less-lethal alternative in cases in which some is aggressive/dangerous and non-compliant with verbal direction. The fact that officers use them (or pepper spray) when they shouldn't is an issue with training and would exist irrespective of whether pepper spray or a Taser was issued. The difference is without these things an officer is more likely to pull out their baton or a gun instead. Hardly an improvement. If the data they present is valid, 20 deaths out of a million is almost statistically insignificant and I'd bet those incidents (even ignoring those where force should not have been used at all) would have led to many more deaths and injuries had cops only had resort to guns, fists, or batons. It's worth remember that Rodney King was first Tased. Was what it progressed to (right or wrong) better? I can't imagine anyone arguing it was.

[Belmont31R]

I have seen a couple people who had to be taken to the post hopsital after reaction in the CS chamber but they both made full recoveries. I doubt the percent of people who have reactions is significant, and as mentioned all things considered its a lot safer than 'hands on' techniques where the risk to both parties becomes much higher. Id rather have LEO's wielding spray than batons. An errant baton strike can DRT someone quite easily.

[jaydoc1]

Spray me all you want. Just don't hit me. I'm too pretty. :lol:

[Surf]

When deployed in the correct manner, in a proper use of force situation, pepper spray and / or a Taser is a much better alternative than having me place an ASP strike or putting my hands on you. I will say that in 22 years OTJ there have definitely been far far far less trips to the ER for both suspects and Officers with the greater use of these valuable tools.

Taser = 5 seconds of hell, followed by a very relaxed feeling. Kind of like having a good deep tissue massage.

Pepper spray = 20-30+ mins of intense burning followed by 2-3+ hours of feeling like you have a bad sunburn.

Broken arm = Hours of pain, days of discomfort and weeks of recovery.

I personally pick getting hit by the Taser.

[Complication]

For what it's worth, a few weeks ago I got the chance to go through some of the annual training Marine MPs get. I got sprayed from 3-5 ft with a stream canister (not mist or foam) real good (a SSgt having a bit of fun with a 2ndLt). I then had to open my eyes, and go station to station, doing punches, knee strikes, off-balancing, baton strikes, and weapons retention/flexi-cuffing (essentially, it forced me to keep my eyes open).

It was extremely unpleasant and the effects lasted for days (I would suddenly and rapidly be incapacitated by pain for up to 48 hours afterwards). Fortunately, I was able to sit myself down in front of a fan and hold my eyes open for hours on end. I can't imagine if I had been cuffed in the back of a patrol car immediately afterwards, unable to do anything to relieve the pain. It definitely changed my opinion of where OC lay on the lethality scale.

Better than being shot or bones broken? Definitely.
Would I wish it upon anyone? F no.

I think it's an advantage that the police have non-lethal options. But it's definitely possible that simply HAVING those options makes them more likely to use them, even when not necessary. I admit that drunk/drugged up citizens pose an unpredictable risk to officers who just want to go home to their families at the end of the shift. But there was probably a better way to handle protesters who weren't causing any harm to anyone.

That said, I don't have much sympathy for the protesters.

The point being: having endured that pain, I have a new appreciation for its severity.

I have a question, though: is mil-grade OC the same potency as LEO or civilian OC? Because this shit was definitely not 20-30 minutes of pain followed by 2-3 hours of "sunburn." This was 6-8 hours of "unable to properly use your eyes or wanting to do ANYTHING but stare into a fan 8 inches away from your face" and then 48 hours of "randomly experiencing excruciating and crippling pain in the eyes for 20-30 minutes until it subsided."

[NoveskeFan]

In regards to UC Davis, there is a good video on YouTube that shows the part of the story the media left out. The students surrounded the officers and refused to move, chanting something like " you can leave when you release our friends.", referring to several arrested subjects.
http://youtu.be/hhPdH3wE0_Y

[Complication]

In regards to UC Davis, there is a good video on YouTube that shows the part of the story the media left out. The students surrounded the officers and refused to move, chanting something like " you can leave when you release our friends.", referring to several arrested subjects.
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=hhPdH3wE0_Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm still not that afraid of a bunch of students with interlocked arms, regardless of what they say.

If you feel threatened by a bunch of teenagers saying bad things to you while remaining in a physically non-threatening posture, maybe law enforcement isn't the career for you. Although, that video won't play for me, so I can't really speak to anything other than the clips of the incident that I've seen elsewhere.

Non-lethal options such as tasers or OC should be reserved for times when you can't simply walk up to someone, lift them up off their ass by slipping your arms under their armpits, and then handcuff them and walk them off to your patrol car.

If you can stroll freely in front of them, spraying them at leisure (not even bothering to have the spray make skin/eye contact), maybe you simply suck at you job.

[bp7178]

I got sprayed from 3-5 ft with a stream canister (not mist or foam) real good (a SSgt having a bit of fun with a 2ndLt).

I have a question, though: is mil-grade OC the same potency as LEO or civilian OC? Because this shit was definitely not 20-30 minutes of pain followed by 2-3 hours of "sunburn." This was 6-8 hours of "unable to properly use your eyes or wanting to do ANYTHING but stare into a fan 8 inches away from your face" and then 48 hours of "randomly experiencing excruciating and crippling pain in the eyes for 20-30 minutes until it subsided."


Part of the training involved in using pepper spray is in the amount sprayed. It isn't for hosing people off. Something like 1-2 second bursts in a X pattern on the face or the like. A Ssgt spraying you like your face was on fire isn't a part of the training.

Individual physiology factors into its effects/after-effects as well.

I'm not condoning the UC incident or the use of OC spray, but how many unwilling people have you handcuffed and carried away?

[NoveskeFan]

The officer that did the spraying was a back up officer that came from outside the student circle. The whole point of OC is to gain compliance and control. When you have a handful of officers surrounded by a larger crowd of people blocking their path, what would you prefer them do? Let's go hands on with "physically non-threatening" students and see how that goes. If you get the chance, watch the video.

[sboza]

I'm still not that afraid of a bunch of students with interlocked arms, regardless of what they say.

If you feel threatened by a bunch of teenagers saying bad things to you while remaining in a physically non-threatening posture, maybe law enforcement isn't the career for you. Although, that video won't play for me, so I can't really speak to anything other than the clips of the incident that I've seen elsewhere.

Non-lethal options such as tasers or OC should be reserved for times when you can't simply walk up to someone, lift them up off their ass by slipping your arms under their armpits, and then handcuff them and walk them off to your patrol car.

If you can stroll freely in front of them, spraying them at leisure (not even bothering to have the spray make skin/eye contact), maybe you simply suck at you job.

I usually don't comment on le issues since, as I've mentioned before, it is in my near future and I like staying within my lane. But you are so damned out of your lane that I am going to break my own rule.

First of all, I've had to go "hands" during my life, I am not fresh out of school which I am going to assume you are. When you go hands on, passive resistance often turns active in the form of resisting the direction of applied pressure and so the violence almost inevitably increases. When trying to control someone who is resisting you, strains, sprains, cuts, bruises, broken bones, etc... can happen amazingly easily.

Any anger should be directed to the chancellor (who has shown her cowardice post incident) if you don't think the decision to move the protestors should have been made. The officers were given an order and they did their job.

And the officers are not spraying the students because they feet threatened but because they were ordered to remove the students (by the chancellor) as they were blocking service vehicles and personnel from passing. The lt went to each and every protestor and told them that they have been ordered to move and if they do not, they would be pepper sprayed. They didn't and they were sprayed.

And to address your silly comment about how officers shouldn't use non-lethal if they could just slip their arms under the students armpits and drag them: That would put access to the officers weapons right at hand level for the resisting students. Not to mention that if that happened then people like you would be here objecting to big mean policemen dragging sweet innocent students. And what if one of those students decided to actively resist, which people do when being dragged?

edit to add: sorry f2s for the inappropriate language, I guess I was tired and started seeing some red.

[Deputy Dan]

Any situation can go from non threatening to all hell breaking loose in a nanosecond.

As for picking up the protestors up by their armpits... been there done that at the WTO years ago... that shit will wear your ass out.

As far as spraying in an x pattern, when we were sprayed in basic, the instructors got maybe 3 trainees out of a can of cap stun :D. My face was painted orange. They waited until our eyes were open, and then let us have it. We then had to fight another instructor with a bag, and then draw our firearm. Yeah, it sucked... suck it up and get over it.

The students at the protest were weak.

ETA As per the taser, we had to switch from cap stun to another OC... Cap Stun has an alcohol base and it was discovered that using cap stun plus a taser equalled a bandit on fire.

[Jim D]

For instances like these, OC Vapor is the ticket.

You can't see it, you need a gas mask to filter it (wet rags won't do a thing), there is no clean up afterwards, and the effects disappear within minutes of exposure.

The news footage would have been 100% different. You would have had a bunch of coughing hippies with no dye, no burns, no visible stream in their faces, etc. They would have just gotten up, walked off, coughed for a few mins, then went about their day.