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WS6
11-27-11, 09:50
So...here is the guy who invented it...right?

http://www.linkedin.com/in/larrylasky

But what's this?

http://seal1.net/Seal-1-PRODUCT-PAGE.html#anchor_53

Totally different guys, both SEAL's, coincidence? Well, maybe.

But what about people who say this "Froglube" evolved from Track Lube Plus, a roller-coaster lube? The paste sure applies the same...
http://www.tracklubeplus.com/index.htm


Yeah, but the first two could be coincidence and the third...what's the relevance?

Well, let me tie it all together for you...
http://www.catalog.biopreferred.gov/bioPreferredCatalog/companyDetails?ID=5244


And this leads us to the entity behind the curtain...

http://www.trillium-solutions.net

and who is the head of all of this?

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-lee/A/AA5/B72

So unless two SEALS independently came up with lubricants that do the same thing and make near identical claims, along with a guy who wants a lube for his roller-coasters, and they ALL got Trillium to do the production and marketing for their products, all around the same time...

jmart
11-27-11, 10:09
So...here is the guy who invented it...right?

http://www.linkedin.com/in/larrylasky

But what's this?

http://seal1.net/Seal-1-PRODUCT-PAGE.html#anchor_53

Totally different guys, both SEAL's, coincidence? Well, maybe.

But what about people who say this "Froglube" evolved from Track Lube Plus, a roller-coaster lube? The paste sure applies the same...
http://www.tracklubeplus.com/index.htm


Yeah, but the first two could be coincidence and the third...what's the relevance?

Well, let me tie it all together for you...
http://www.catalog.biopreferred.gov/bioPreferredCatalog/companyDetails?ID=5244


And this leads us to the entity behind the curtain...

http://www.trillium-solutions.net

and who is the head of all of this?

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-lee/A/AA5/B72

So unless two SEALS independently came up with lubricants that do the same thing and make near identical claims, along with a guy who wants a lube for his roller-coasters, and they ALL got Trillium to do the production and marketing for their products, all around the same time...

Your point is lost on me.......

WS6
11-27-11, 10:22
Your point is lost on me.......

Why are they claiming Lasky invented it? Did he and the other SEAL simultaneously invent the same thing...along with roller-coaster track lube? Do they also have some beachfront property I can buy in Nebraska?

jmart
11-27-11, 10:24
All of this because a nail rusted in salwater?

Thomas M-4
11-27-11, 10:30
Its re-branded that doesn't surprise you does it ;)

An Undocumented Worker
11-27-11, 10:32
All I really care about in relation to Froglube, is that it lubricates stuff like they say it does, cleans like they say it does, and provides decent protection from rust as compared to untreated surfaces. Oh and that it doesn't make me grow another head off of my neck.

So far it seems to be delivering on the First two claims. The third claim will be tougher to evaluate, since I have yet to have problems with rust on any of my firearms with any product.

I might not know for certain on the last claim for many years down the road, but I don't plan on buttering my toast with the stuff either.




Lastly, why make a new thread when posting this in the froglube thread would have been more appropriate?

WS6
11-27-11, 10:41
All I really care about in relation to Froglube, is that it lubricates stuff like they say it does, cleans like they say it does, and provides decent protection from rust as compared to untreated surfaces. Oh and that it doesn't make me grow another head off of my neck.

So far it seems to be delivering on the First two claims. The third claim will be tougher to evaluate, since I have yet to have problems with rust on any of my firearms with any product.

I might not know for certain on the last claim for many years down the road, but I don't plan on buttering my toast with the stuff either.




Lastly, why make a new thread when posting this in the froglube thread would have been more appropriate?

This thread has the same subject, but a different topic. It would be like posting all questions about barrels under 1 thread. We have many threads about the same "product/brand", as it were. If the mods don't like it, I wouldn't mind a merge in the slightest.

My question arises because: If it is so good, why the smoke/mirrors and identical products both on the market from the same manufacturer with no ties to the source and a story about SEAL development for both? Was the roller-coaster lube developed by a SEAL, too?

I want to know why the half-truths in advertising. Does this not bother others? Has there been anything but back-yard testing so-far to evaluate the more important aspects of the product?

jmart
11-27-11, 10:47
This thread has the same subject, but a different topic. It would be like posting all questions about barrels under 1 thread. We have many threads about the same "product/brand", as it were. If the mods don't like it, I wouldn't mind a merge in the slightest.

My question arises because: If it is so good, why the smoke/mirrors and identical products both on the market from the same manufacturer with no ties to the source and a story about SEAL development for both? Was the roller-coaster lube developed by a SEAL, too?

I want to know why the half-truths in advertising. Does this not bother others? Has there been anything but back-yard testing so-far to evaluate the more important aspects of the product?

How do you know the products are identical? George Fennel has a company that offers several different lubes. Are they all the same recipe, and the only difference is the label/branding?

SLIP markets several different lubes. Whether or not they make them or have a chemical company make them to SLIPs specs (or SLIP went reaching out and bought into some off-the-shelf formulation and re-named it "Slip 200"), I have no idea. But do you think they are all the same?

This sounds like the makings of a vast lubing conspiracy. I can see the movie now......

WS6
11-27-11, 10:55
How do you know the products are identical? George Fennel has a company that offers several different lubes. Are they all the same recipe, and the only difference is the label/branding?

SLIP markets several different lubes. Whether or not they make them or have a chemical company make them to SLIPs specs (or SLIP went reaching out and bought into some off-the-shelf formulation and re-named it "Slip 200"), I have no idea. But do you think they are all the same?

This sounds like the makings of a vast lubing conspiracy. I can see the movie now......

Does George Fennel have 2 different people claiming to be responsible for those products?

Does SLIP re-brand their lubricants so as to compete with each other in a similar fashion?

Littlelebowski
11-27-11, 10:59
Looks like someone knows some SEALs that are willing to sell their names out.

Anyway, the stuff works well for me. Good investigative work nonetheless.

Generalpie
11-27-11, 11:04
Why have one company produce a lower with your rollmark? This is very common. Maybe the froglube brand is slightly modified, maybe not. It wouldn't be hard to add additives for a "small" batch of some other stock lubricant.

I doubt very much any of the gun lubes started out as just for the firearm market. From an industrial lubricant stand point firearms are a very very small market.

So in short, if it works, go with it. Good for them for finding a niche and making a go of it.

An Undocumented Worker
11-27-11, 11:05
This thread has the same subject, but a different topic. It would be like posting all questions about barrels under 1 thread. We have many threads about the same "product/brand", as it were. If the mods don't like it, I wouldn't mind a merge in the slightest.

My question arises because: If it is so good, why the smoke/mirrors and identical products both on the market from the same manufacturer with no ties to the source and a story about SEAL development for both? Was the roller-coaster lube developed by a SEAL, too?

I want to know why the half-truths in advertising. Does this not bother others? Has there been anything but back-yard testing so-far to evaluate the more important aspects of the product?

To be perfectly honest, no I don't care that they take the same product, add a different scent to it and market it under a different label, with a different company created for each brand.

This is common practice for many consumer goods, especially when it can be used in different industries. Sometimes it's better to market something as a different product so as to get past any emotional hangups a consumer might have, about say using a home laundry detergent as a parts washing agent, or vice versa.

Froglube doesn't appear to make any claims that Lasky invented the stuff, just helps with development. Perhaps Lasky is a retired Seal who was looking to start his own business, knew some people who had a product he liked, and decided it worked well for firearms and thus rebranded it and started distributing it.

This part of business,

Make a discovery "tide works great as a parts cleaner" (completely hypothetical claim there)

Buy Tide in bulk,

Rebrand and market to a different target market.

Profit!


Maybe it's a slightly different scenario. Some industrial group has lube they are using in one industries, an employee decides to test it on his firearms. Employee finds out it works great for this use. Management wants to start marketing it to firearms enthusiasts, and runs it by the marketing department.
Marketing department says Gun nuts love Seals, lets find a seal to act as the figurehead of our new Froglube division.

Company Profits,
Retired Seal gets payed
Customers happy with product?

Great Success!

Thomas M-4
11-27-11, 11:09
Does George Fennel have 2 different people claiming to be responsible for those products?

Does SLIP re-brand their lubricants so as to compete with each other in a similar fashion?

I would like to know is track lube charging almost $2.50 per oz for the 2.5 and 5 gallon buckets.

Littlelebowski
11-27-11, 11:11
I never once believed that SEALs invented this nor thought anyone else on this site did either.

An Undocumented Worker
11-27-11, 11:14
I would like to know is track lube charging almost $2.50 per oz for the 2.5 and 5 gallon buckets.

I don't kow, but they likely only sell by the gallon or more. You are probably paying more for the convenience of purchasing it in smaller quantities. Do you really think you'd ever go through a whole gallon of the stuff?

here ya go
http://uremet.com/carnival.html

WS6
11-27-11, 11:16
The only legit thing I have seen so far is SIG Academy seems to endorse it.

Everything else is based on the simple premise of it being all natural, smelling good, and changing consistency with temperature.

Littlelebowski
11-27-11, 11:21
My Warren Tactical sights on my daily carry used to rust even with monthly applications of Eezox. With Froglube, they do not. I didn't do that stupid "heat up and apply" rigmarole either.

Same daily carry (and training pistol) shows a sheen of semi solid Froglube on the parts that I applied it to (again without the heat). When I shoot, the Froglube warms up and turns into an oil. It's done that for over 2k rds. It works as advertised and does not run onto my clothing.

a0cake
11-27-11, 11:28
There's a long ass thread on Calguns about this. Froglube company people even jump in.

The basic summary of the thread as I remember it is yes it's basically track lube. One of the FL reps states that the former SEAL assisted in adapting the track lube into a firearms product. If I recall correctly, this turns out to be not entirely true. In the end, it ends with the trillium company guys saying "we don't owe an explanation to anybody, the product works. Use it if you like it, don't use it if you don't." Some of the guys agree, some don't. And the world goes on...the sun will rise tomorrow.

Thomas M-4
11-27-11, 12:04
I don't kow, but they likely only sell by the gallon or more. You are probably paying more for the convenience of purchasing it in smaller quantities. Do you really think you'd ever go through a whole gallon of the stuff?

here ya go
http://uremet.com/carnival.html

Still no price I am going to assume it goes for less than $2.50 per OZ In the track lube label.
And no I wouldn't need a 2.5 gallon or 5 gallon bucket of it.
But a quart size would make more real world sense but not at $2.50 per OZ as they charge for the frog lube brand label. With a tiny 4 oz bottle its seems its more for there $$ convenience than mine .

I would like to add I am sure it works fine as a firearms lube.
AS DOES many other lubricants. It is just the re-branding , re-pricing, and the BS advertising for the firearms market.:sarcastic:

sgtjosh
11-27-11, 12:56
Did anyone consider he might have contracted another company who has the manufacturing capability to make and package his product?

sgtjosh
11-27-11, 13:09
The only legit thing I have seen so far is SIG Academy seems to endorse it.

Everything else is based on the simple premise of it being all natural, smelling good, and changing consistency with temperature.

The point of being a paste is that it stays put without running or evaporating and does not attract dust and other airborne crap. When you need it to lube during firing it turns to a slick liquid.

The liquid grabs the fouling, keeping most of it off the weapon and turns back into a paste when the weapon cools.

Clean up is a wipe down and reapplication.

Iraqgunz
11-27-11, 17:12
Sounds like a slippery conspiracy. I don't see the big deal here and personally I could care less since the product works for me.

WS6
11-27-11, 17:43
Sounds like a slippery conspiracy. I don't see the big deal here and personally I could care less since the product works for me.

As long as it's not a Vulcan/Hesse Arms fairy-tale, I'm on board as well. It just really reminded me of that with all the SEAL this and SEAL that and parent company hiding behind offshoot with no link, etc. I wanted to know if it was a legitimate product or some re-branded junk that just looks good on the surface. I remember how hard you guys beat up on one lube a few years ago and just said "It's re-packaged silicone". There is no anti-wear additive. Of course, the lube LOOKED, FELT, and PERFORMED great for many people. Just sucked at preventing wear. It was some stuff "Mad Ogre" or whatever came up/championed with as I recall.

Littlelebowski
11-27-11, 17:45
MadOgre is currently peddling "nano" lube under the name "Slipstream."

Iraqgunz
11-27-11, 17:50
I wouldn't be using it and recommending it, if it was junk. The fact is that I have been using it for close to 6 months now and it does exactly what I NEED IT TO DO.

For the record- I don't know who "you guys" are. But, I had some of that Nano-lube stuff sent to me and it seemed decent enough. But, I didn't see it as a major advancement over Weaponshield, Slip2000 or Militec. All of which work very well.

What works for me in Arizona or Iraq or Timbuktu may not be the same for someone in North Dakota or Florida.

I would say instead of doing some rusted nail test you actually use it on a firearm and shoot it.


As long as it's not a Vulcan/Hesse Arms fairy-tale, I'm on board as well. It just really reminded me of that with all the SEAL this and SEAL that and parent company hiding behind offshoot with no link, etc. I wanted to know if it was a legitimate product or some re-branded junk that just looks good on the surface. I remember how hard you guys beat up on one lube a few years ago and just said "It's re-packaged silicone". There is no anti-wear additive. Of course, the lube LOOKED, FELT, and PERFORMED great for many people. Just sucked at preventing wear. It was some stuff "Mad Ogre" or whatever came up/championed with as I recall.

WS6
11-27-11, 17:50
MadOgre is currently peddling "nano" lube under the name "Slipstream."

Exactly. Noone will touch his stuff because he has had so much stuff that is a gimmick. When I look in a company's history and see that they are identical in nature, it makes me question their current offering. Hence this thread. I want to know if Trillium is another Mad Ogre.

WS6
11-27-11, 17:52
I wouldn't be using it and recommending it, if it was junk. The fact is that I have been using it for close to 6 months now and it does exactly what I NEED IT TO DO.

For the record- I don't know who "you guys" are. But, I had some of that Nano-lube stuff sent to me and it seemed decent enough. But, I didn't see it as a major advancement over Weaponshield, Slip2000 or Militec. All of which work very well.

What works for me in Arizona or Iraq or Timbuktu may not be the same for someone in North Dakota or Florida.

I would say instead of doing some rusted nail test you actually use it on a firearm and shoot it.

Applied to my Noveske, will shoot it during my "weekend" (this week).

The application was text-book according to what I understand and I have high hopes, I just don't want to shoot my AR with what amounts to canning-wax on the BCG if this is another sham is all.

Heavy Metal
11-27-11, 18:05
MadOgre is currently peddling "nano" lube under the name "Slipstream."

MadOgre is a dumbass know-nothing worthless ****ing tool too.

WS6
11-27-11, 18:06
I addressed FrogLube with this information/these links in public forum and they have responded:

"Jonathan, this is news to us, we're checking in to it now. We owe you an answer. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. And thanks for your support for using FrogLube!"

Littlelebowski
11-27-11, 18:39
Exactly. Noone will touch his stuff because he has had so much stuff that is a gimmick. When I look in a company's history and see that they are identical in nature, it makes me question their current offering. Hence this thread. I want to know if Trillium is another Mad Ogre.

I've tried both. I use FrogLube.

Dsm2nr
11-27-11, 18:42
Applied to my Noveske, will shoot it during my "weekend" (this week).

The application was text-book according to what I understand and I have high hopes, I just don't want to shoot my AR with what amounts to canning-wax on the BCG if this is another sham is all.

So you haven't even used it and are already looking to discredit the product, company and owner?

Littlelebowski
11-27-11, 18:42
Applied to my Noveske, will shoot it during my "weekend" (this week).

The application was text-book according to what I understand and I have high hopes, I just don't want to shoot my AR with what amounts to canning-wax on the BCG if this is another sham is all.

A buddy and I took Defoor's advanced carbine class a coupla weeks ago and we both used FrogLube, albeit just slathered on. No malfunctions other than some brand new 5.45 mags and that was remedied by not using said mags. Buddy ran his BCM middy and I ran my S&W 5.45. Stuff worked as advertised. I think the round count was around 1200-ish for two days.

eternal24k
11-27-11, 19:46
I never once believed that SEALs invented this nor thought anyone else on this site did either.

same, the SEAL thing I always took with a grain of salt

Animal_Mother556
11-27-11, 20:03
same, the SEAL thing I always took with a grain of salt

Any time I hear that kind of thing (Navy SEALs use it! or Invented by a Navy SEAL or Used by Special Forces or whatever...) I don't believe it until it's proven. But, having said that, I don't automatically think the product is bogus.

I, for one, am looking forward to trying some Froglube. I haven't ordered any yet. I don't care if there is a conspiracy about who invented it, or who the "man behind the curtain" is. If it works...I want it.


....unless the Obama administration invented it. Then I will stick with Slip2000

davidjinks
11-27-11, 22:28
So......

If Frog Lube is in fact Track Lube...then it will protect my guns from corrosion AND make them go faster?

I'm not seeing a problem here.

Animal_Mother556
11-28-11, 05:32
So......

If Frog Lube is in fact Track Lube...then it will protect my guns from corrosion AND make them go faster?

I'm not seeing a problem here.

I hope it doesn't cause my M&P slide to derail and hit my face hahaha...hahaha...haha...ha...

get it?....cause roller coasters are on rails...and so are....never mind.

markm
11-28-11, 07:34
I don't care if there is a conspiracy about who invented it, or who the "man behind the curtain" is. If it works...I want it.


....unless the Obama administration invented it. Then I will stick with Slip2000

Al Gore invented it!

Animal_Mother556
11-28-11, 12:56
Al Gore invented it!


Shit, that's right. Forgot.

snakedoctor
11-30-11, 15:48
Is Froglube good to go as a bore cleaner?

Littlelebowski
11-30-11, 16:38
Is Froglube good to go as a bore cleaner?

Nope. KG-12 is your best bet.

Dennis
11-30-11, 17:57
I agree that the FrogLube promotional material and various websites and other data WS6 found are not very confidence inspiring and should set off the BS radars of those of us that have tried all the various lubes that have come down the pike. However, since many respected people seem to think that it does work as advertised you might as well try it out before digging around looking for some "truth" that is likely just crappy marketing. I think FrogLube will either become a successful company off this stuff if they get their act together or they will be bought by one of the other big players and then hopefully better marketed. "Magpul Minty Lube!"

I personally did not try it until hearing good results from other respected people and then having great results myself. First off with a Benelli M4 that would slow down and short cycle after as little as 50 rounds with my normal "light" oiling with Slip EWL that would get an AR through 300+ trouble free rounds. I am sure lots of Slip EWL would work better but in a 12ga gun that's a lot of oil that gets messy and may just run out anyways. FrogLube only required a light coat, solidifies when not in use, and keeps it running for hundreds of rounds with no issues.

A more prosaic example is the shower rod in one of my bathrooms that continually binds up after a few weeks even after an application of militec/slip/tetra/whatever over the years. After a non heated application of Frolube it's been sliding smoothly for a few months now.

Froglube has worked for me on multiple weapons and applications so far, better than oil in some cases.

Dennis.

JohnnyC
11-30-11, 20:19
Got an e-mail from the Track Lube Plus people:

Track Lube Plus -Liquid = $205 (per gallon)
Track Lube Plus -Paste = $180 (per gallon)

Didn't ask for an MSDS to compare.

Dennis
11-30-11, 20:29
Got an e-mail from the Track Lube Plus people:

Track Lube Plus -Liquid = $205 (per gallon)
Track Lube Plus -Paste = $180 (per gallon)

Didn't ask for an MSDS to compare.

A gallon of paste Frog Lube was $157 at a local gun show last week from this company.

http://www.utvtactical.com/froglube_orderpage.htm

Dennis.

An Undocumented Worker
11-30-11, 21:37
Well, after going to the range today, it works well as a lubricant. Even when heavily applied it doesn't fling off my pistols, and the pistol I lubed it with is still cycling as smoothly as it did when I first lubed it with froglube before going to the range. Typically with Slip2000 I can feel the hammer dragging the bottom of the slide and adding friction after a range session, not with the froglube. The hammer just slips across the bottom of the slide like ice on glass.

It also seems to deliver on it's claim of preventing carbon from sticking hard to parts, carbon wiped off clean with no scrubbing, both from my 9mm and .22 that was shooting dirty blazer.

I also found it seems to be a very effective bore cleaner to remove carbon fouling, though it won't touch copper.

WS6
11-30-11, 21:38
I ran it on my Noveske and won't be doing so again. It plays extremely ugly with gun-scrubber type stuff I use to hose off the BCG, and it sticks like concrete afterward. I had to re-heat everything and blast it again to get rid of it. I can't see it doing me any favors in the cold, either, as it didn't "re-liquefy" while at the indoor range even. Albeit I did not blast away, I was sighting in my BUIS and optic. Either way, I will stick with what I know. I did like the smell, though!

Iraqgunz
11-30-11, 21:46
As I stated in the other thread where you posted this. You are blaming the FrogLube even though you are using it incorrectly. If you don't like it, don't use it. But, those who have been using it correctly seem to like it.


I ran it on my Noveske and won't be doing so again. It plays extremely ugly with gun-scrubber type stuff I use to hose off the BCG, and it sticks like concrete afterward. I had to re-heat everything and blast it again to get rid of it. I can't see it doing me any favors in the cold, either, as it didn't "re-liquefy" while at the indoor range even. Albeit I did not blast away, I was sighting in my BUIS and optic. Either way, I will stick with what I know. I did like the smell, though!

WS6
11-30-11, 21:54
As I stated in the other thread where you posted this. You are blaming the FrogLube even though you are using it incorrectly. If you don't like it, don't use it. But, those who have been using it correctly seem to like it.

I know it says "just wipe it off", but I want to clean my parts well so I can inspect them properly. Not wipe sludge into any possible cracks, etc. to hide them.

I'll stick with what has always worked for me.

Iraqgunz
11-30-11, 22:12
You can still wipe it down and even use a toothbrush if necessary to clean. What possible cracks do you think you will find?

I am just trying to make sense of your post. I was able to "clean" my bolt enough to check it. I didn't need to do anythung special.


I know it says "just wipe it off", but I want to clean my parts well so I can inspect them properly. Not wipe sludge into any possible cracks, etc. to hide them.

I'll stick with what has always worked for me.

WS6
11-30-11, 22:52
You can still wipe it down and even use a toothbrush if necessary to clean. What possible cracks do you think you will find?

I am just trying to make sense of your post. I was able to "clean" my bolt enough to check it. I didn't need to do anythung special.

Found what looked like a spot of rust on my gas-key after I actually cleaned it. Froglube hid that. It also didn't remove or prevent it. Weapon is only a few days old (although I guess the BCG could have been stored until shipment?).

It was only a TINY spot, but still, it's enough to convince me I should stick with what I have been using. Thousands of rounds down range without a single jam due to "lubricant failure", I'll continue.

Main thing I care about is resistance to burning off--which is what causes gunk on the tail of the bolt, etc. that must be scrubbed. LaRue MG Lube actually says whats in it and it owns Froglube in any heat test I have seen or done.

a0cake
11-30-11, 23:26
Not trying to gang up on you WS6, but why do you feel that buildup on the tail of the bolt needs to be scrubbed off?

If the thing you care about most is a lube's resistance to burning off, FL should be at the top of your list.

Not trying to be a dick, but I'm not seeing any sense in your position.

You might want to give FL another go but properly this time (don't use other products simultaneously).

Degrease all parts. Get rid of everything (once, first time only) Apply FL, then heat up with a blow dryer. Wipe. Repeat.

Shoot the gun. When you're done, wipe it off and reapply FL.

Don't worry getting everything off.

You won't have any issues.

WS6
11-30-11, 23:54
Not trying to gang up on you WS6, but why do you feel that buildup on the tail of the bolt needs to be scrubbed off? It's not a need, it's an OCD thing. Fully acknowledge that it's not required, but then, that's the only thing FL really has going for it is it keeps the bolt tail wet. It did this okay. Well, not really, but there wasn't much junk on there.

If the thing you care about most is a lube's resistance to burning off, FL should be at the top of your list.
LaRue MG lube does better in heat. Froglube is a sticky residue when its still liquid.

Not trying to be a dick, but I'm not seeing any sense in your position.

You might want to give FL another go but properly this time (don't use other products simultaneously). I did not use it in conjunction with other chemicals when firing the weapon. I normally clean my BCG by blasting with with gun-scrubber. It takes all of 10 seconds and removes all the dirty lube, carbon held in suspension, etc. With Froglube, it turned the junk to concrete, and I had to heat the BCG, and re-blast it.

Degrease all parts. Get rid of everything (once, first time only) Apply FL, then heat up with a blow dryer. Wipe. Repeat.

Shoot the gun. When you're done, wipe it off and reapply FL.

Don't worry getting everything off.
I don't like leaving the junk in there. It felt gritty pulling the CH until I removed all the contaminated lube. Otherwise it's just holding carbon in suspension and acting as an abrasive.
You won't have any issues.

Red.

No functional issues on the in-door range, but the stuff never turned liquid. I felt it was about similar to dipping the BCG in canning wax.

Still noone has a clue how this stuff performs as an anti-wear product. We don't even know if there are any anti-wear additives. KY is slippery, sure, but it won't prevent wear any. Does anyone know about Froglube?

I highly doubt it. Everyone who has asked them just gets steered toward testimonials while dodging the facts. No data has ever been provided for anything regarding its performance.

tonyxcom
11-30-11, 23:55
He is already predisposed to hate FrogLube so there isn't any way he will give it a chance to work for him. This thread was just his attempt at a witch hunt.

WS6
12-01-11, 00:12
He is already predisposed to hate FrogLube so there isn't any way he will give it a chance to work for him. This thread was just his attempt at a witch hunt.

Already stripped my AR, lubed it up per instructions, and shot it using the FL. I'd say I gave it a try.

I wasn't pre-disposed to dislike it, it has just done really shitty every time I have tested it in any way.

-Corrosion? It providedes no protection that I have seen, evidenced by my rusted gas-key and the fact that in my kitchen test it performed identical to the control in salt-water.

-Lubrication? I don't know, noone does.

-Withstanding heat? I just put some on some foil and placed it in my oven at 400 ramping up to 500*F along with some LaRue MG lube. The Frog-lube paste was sticky and brown and could not be wiped off very easily when I removed the two, the LaRue MG lube was un-changed and left no residue, just slick like when I applied it.

-Does smell good, it is non-toxic, and it does have a bunch of fans.

Iraqgunz
12-01-11, 01:27
I can tell from the first time you commented that you don't like it, that's fine. It seems to work for me and plenty others who have tried it.

What did you expect it to do? It is an organic biodegradable susbstance. I am not shooting my M4 in an oven and I am not so sure that the inside of my upper will reach 500 degrees when I am shooting it.


Already stripped my AR, lubed it up per instructions, and shot it using the FL. I'd say I gave it a try.

I wasn't pre-disposed to dislike it, it has just done really shitty every time I have tested it in any way.

-Corrosion? It providedes no protection that I have seen, evidenced by my rusted gas-key and the fact that in my kitchen test it performed identical to the control in salt-water.

-Lubrication? I don't know, noone does.

-Withstanding heat? I just put some on some foil and placed it in my oven at 400 ramping up to 500*F along with some LaRue MG lube. The Frog-lube paste was sticky and brown and could not be wiped off very easily when I removed the two, the LaRue MG lube was un-changed and left no residue, just slick like when I applied it.
-Does smell good, it is non-toxic, and it does have a bunch of fans.

WS6
12-01-11, 03:04
I can tell from the first time you commented that you don't like it, that's fine. It seems to work for me and plenty others who have tried it.

What did you expect it to do? It is an organic biodegradable susbstance. I am not shooting my M4 in an oven and I am not so sure that the inside of my upper will reach 500 degrees when I am shooting it.

I'll just stick with what works for me, requires no additional steps, and that I have demonstrated as superior in MY opinion. You will continue to do what works for you, and I bet neither of us will have any problems from it, to be quite frank.

I don't know how much that 9" of gas-tube cools the gas, but I assume the tail of the bolt/gas-key do get hit with 500+*F gasses. I could be very wrong there, though. That is the only part of an AR that ever collected anything that wouldn't wipe off in my usage.

From what I have seen, Froglube causes greater wear than other lubricants, does not protect very well against corrosion, burns off faster than petroleum based lubes, and at that point, I made up my mind.

Where did I see this? Well, several guys have posted on other forums that their pistols (1911's) saw greatly accelerated wear which began when Froglube was used, ended when it was discontinued. I myself have observed the burn-off and corrosion protection shortcomings. Froglube has refused to release any data or official testing of the product, so internet hear-say and back-yard tests are about the best we have to go on, and my back-yard tests say it's not for me, and other than the fans, I am reading some really negative stuff regarding wear, etc. Based on the physical properties of the lubricant, I am betting it is some sort of wax of some type. Without any add-pack for wear, all it's going to do is make things slick. Truth is, we have no CLUE what's in it or how well it does at preventing wear.

I'll let others pioneer that frontier.

If you have some quantifiable data, I am all ears, as I love how it smells and stays in place and is biodegradable. It just doesn't do any of the other stuff I want. I really want to love it, but if it won't protect against wear, and won't stop corrosion, I won't use it.

I became a bit of an anti-corrosion nut living in Louisiana and being blessed with sweat that will rust glass. It's more important to me than to many others.

Let me ask you this, though: If Mad Ogre came out with (yet another...) wonder-lube, lied about some SEAL/chemist inventing it, and a few people used it for a few months and said it kicked ass, would you whole-heatedly embrace it even though it failed to meet about half the manufacturer's claims in your limited experience with it and Mad Ogre refused to have it tested and mocked lubricants that were tested in labs?

Rana
12-01-11, 04:45
He is already predisposed to hate FrogLube so there isn't any way he will give it a chance to work for him. This thread was just his attempt at a witch hunt.

This is transparent to say the least.

I see the same anti Froglube drivel on other forums as well; perhaps it is the same guy under different user names (possibly?).

My last platoon we purchased and used Froglube exclusively. I for one will not, nor care to use anything else on a weapon at this point. I have used it on everything from pistols to belt-fed machine guns over an extended time period (RE: YEARS).

With that being said, I never put on a lab coat and did any scientific testing on the stuff either. Come to think of it I never did any scientific testing on any lube or gun cleaner over the last 14 years I have spent on active duty toting and using weapons on a "fairly regular" basis. The same can be said for the oil in my 2 vehicles (which cost a lot more than all my guns combined BTW). Not sure how many people take the time to create "DATA" on every product they purchase and use. To those who do, it must be great to have that kind of time, energy, and money. If your a guy and do this, you may want to spend more time around females- they have a lot more to offer than running lab test on gun lubes (trust me on this one).

Bottom line is this. Just about every off the shelf gun lube and cleaner will more than suffice for the majority of gun owners and internet armchair commandos across the country and around the globe. Use what you'd like. I know what works for me and my weapons based on proper application and USE.

phenom00
12-01-11, 05:22
Sounds like a slippery conspiracy. I don't see the big deal here and personally I could care less since the product works for me.Haaa! Good one mate!

Littlelebowski
12-01-11, 06:03
I know it says "just wipe it off", but I want to clean my parts well so I can inspect them properly. Not wipe sludge into any possible cracks, etc. to hide them.

I'll stick with what has always worked for me.

With the "possible cracks" thing, you are just groping for an excuse not to use it.

I never properly applied this stuff and it warmed up and turned into an oil on my G19 and my 5.45 carbine just fine. Works perfectly.

Just switch back to what works for you.

Iraqgunz
12-01-11, 06:21
Who the **** is the Mad Ogre and why do I care about him? I have no scientific data. What I have is my first hand usage of it.

Having recently used it on a gun that ran pretty hard (suppressed SBR) in a Magpul class, the fact that my weapon never malfunctioned and was ony lubed once in the morning and after lunch says alot.

The fact that my only cleaning was a wipe down of the BCG with a shop towel says alot. This evening after thinking about this thread I went out and looked at my SBR. It was pretty nasty.

I heated up the BCG with a small space heater in the garage and almost all of the carbon wiped away- the same for the inside of the upper.

The only area that had some build up was the tail of the bolt which I applied some FrogLube and let soak.

So the fact for me is that it doesn't run all over into the weapon and magazines. It seems to lubricate and work as a cleaner, it smells good, and is biodegradeable are all pluses in my book.

*This is not a paid endorsement of FrogLube. The actor was not compensated in any way. You should always consult a medical professional before changing your lifestyle in any way.*


I'll just stick with what works for me, requires no additional steps, and that I have demonstrated as superior in MY opinion. You will continue to do what works for you, and I bet neither of us will have any problems from it, to be quite frank.

I don't know how much that 9" of gas-tube cools the gas, but I assume the tail of the bolt/gas-key do get hit with 500+*F gasses. I could be very wrong there, though. That is the only part of an AR that ever collected anything that wouldn't wipe off in my usage.

From what I have seen, Froglube causes greater wear than other lubricants, does not protect very well against corrosion, burns off faster than petroleum based lubes, and at that point, I made up my mind.

Where did I see this? Well, several guys have posted on other forums that their pistols (1911's) saw greatly accelerated wear which began when Froglube was used, ended when it was discontinued. I myself have observed the burn-off and corrosion protection shortcomings. Froglube has refused to release any data or official testing of the product, so internet hear-say and back-yard tests are about the best we have to go on, and my back-yard tests say it's not for me, and other than the fans, I am reading some really negative stuff regarding wear, etc. Based on the physical properties of the lubricant, I am betting it is some sort of wax of some type. Without any add-pack for wear, all it's going to do is make things slick. Truth is, we have no CLUE what's in it or how well it does at preventing wear.

I'll let others pioneer that frontier.

If you have some quantifiable data, I am all ears, as I love how it smells and stays in place and is biodegradable. It just doesn't do any of the other stuff I want. I really want to love it, but if it won't protect against wear, and won't stop corrosion, I won't use it.

I became a bit of an anti-corrosion nut living in Louisiana and being blessed with sweat that will rust glass. It's more important to me than to many others.

Let me ask you this, though: If Mad Ogre came out with (yet another...) wonder-lube, lied about some SEAL/chemist inventing it, and a few people used it for a few months and said it kicked ass, would you whole-heatedly embrace it even though it failed to meet about half the manufacturer's claims in your limited experience with it and Mad Ogre refused to have it tested and mocked lubricants that were tested in labs?

WS6
12-01-11, 06:28
This is transparent to say the least.

I see the same anti Froglube drivel on other forums as well; perhaps it is the same guy under different user names (possibly?).

My last platoon we purchased and used Froglube exclusively. I for one will not, nor care to use anything else on a weapon at this point. I have used it on everything from pistols to belt-fed machine guns over an extended time period (RE: YEARS).

With that being said, I never put on a lab coat and did any scientific testing on the stuff either. Come to think of it I never did any scientific testing on any lube or gun cleaner over the last 14 years I have spent on active duty toting and using weapons on a "fairly regular" basis. The same can be said for the oil in my 2 vehicles (which cost a lot more than all my guns combined BTW). Not sure how many people take the time to create "DATA" on every product they purchase and use. To those who do, it must be great to have that kind of time, energy, and money. If your a guy and do this, you may want to spend more time around females- they have a lot more to offer than running lab test on gun lubes (trust me on this one).

Bottom line is this. Just about every off the shelf gun lube and cleaner will more than suffice for the majority of gun owners and internet armchair commandos across country and around the globe. Use what you'd like. I know what works for me and my weapons based on proper application and USE.

Nope, this and one local/regional forum are the only places I posted about FL. I have no agenda with it and approached it with an open mind. It just failed to perform as I thought it should. You're right though, most lubes are "sufficient".

WS6
12-01-11, 06:30
Who the **** is the Mad Ogre and why do I care about him? I have no scientific data. What I have is my first hand usage of it.

Having recently used it on a gun that ran pretty hard (suppressed SBR) in a Magpul class, the fact that my weapon never malfunctioned and was ony lubed once in the morning and after lunch says alot.

The fact that my only cleaning was a wipe down of the BCG with a shop towel says alot. This evening after thinking about this thread I went out and looked at my SBR. It was pretty nasty.

I heated up the BCG with a small space heater in the garage and almost all of the carbon wiped away- the same for the inside of the upper.

The only area that had some build up was the tail of the bolt which I applied some FrogLube and let soak.

So the fact for me is that it doesn't run all over into the weapon and magazines. It seems to lubricate and work as a cleaner, it smells good, and is biodegradeable are all pluses in my book.

*This is not a paid endorsement of FrogLube. The actor was not compensated in any way. You should always consult a medical professional before changing your lifestyle in any way.*

How did the other weapons in that class perform with different lubes (Obviously an apples/apples question, nothing is going to make some Vulcan Arms run with your rig).

Mad Ogre = the man behind Slipstream and other wunderlubes, as I understand it.

WS6
12-01-11, 06:37
With the "possible cracks" thing, you are just groping for an excuse not to use it.

I never properly applied this stuff and it warmed up and turned into an oil on my G19 and my 5.45 carbine just fine. Works perfectly.

Just switch back to what works for you.

Fine fine fine. I will give the stuff another go. I have heard on 2 forums (by the same guy, btw, he posted on 2 forums) that it has caused increased wear. You notice anything like that?

I'm planning to go have conjugal visit with my FA556-212 and if it blows wonderful minty smell at me, it will go a long way toward convincing me.

So...should I continue to use paste on my AR considering it doesn't go to liquid that I have noticed, or are you all using the CLP product?

I really do like the stuff as far as it not running everywhere/smelling nice, etc. I'm just not happy with how it has performed other than that so far. Maybe 80 rounds isn't a fair trial. I digress, but I am open to trying it again.

I did notice that the barrel of my Noveske was STOOPID easy to clean after shooting those 80 rounds. No real cleaning required, and the copper solvent barely turned blue. This is not normal in my experience, even for a dozen rounds.

I'll give it another go. Seems like enough people here who have BTDT like the stuff. You have pulled more triggers than I have, so I am going to take another shot at it.

Any of you notice increased wear, though? I know that sample of 1 is likely nothing, but it worries me nonetheless.

Littlelebowski
12-01-11, 06:47
I just use the CLP product. I've only got about 3k rds of use with it on my Glock and 5.45 AR. I don't think wear will be a problem though given the performance I've seen so far..

davidjinks
12-01-11, 06:57
Wow...

This thread got weird.

I got my FL last week, but I have yet to use it.

The biggest benefits, for me; non-toxic, biodegradable, pleasent smell and the fact the shit can be washed in the laundry. As soon as I get to the range this weekend I'll see how it actually performs.

IG: I appreciate the information you've given me. All rifles are decreased and ready to go.

markm
12-01-11, 07:09
The biggest benefits, for me; non-toxic, biodegradable, pleasent smell and the fact the shit can be washed in the laundry.

Those are the things that made me worry it wasn't going to work. :fie:

Lube threads are so gay.

An Undocumented Worker
12-01-11, 08:15
Fine fine fine. I will give the stuff another go. I have heard on 2 forums (by the same guy, btw, he posted on 2 forums) that it has caused increased wear. You notice anything like that?

I'm planning to go have conjugal visit with my FA556-212 and if it blows wonderful minty smell at me, it will go a long way toward convincing me.

So...should I continue to use paste on my AR considering it doesn't go to liquid that I have noticed, or are you all using the CLP product?

I really do like the stuff as far as it not running everywhere/smelling nice, etc. I'm just not happy with how it has performed other than that so far. Maybe 80 rounds isn't a fair trial. I digress, but I am open to trying it again.

I did notice that the barrel of my Noveske was STOOPID easy to clean after shooting those 80 rounds. No real cleaning required, and the copper solvent barely turned blue. This is not normal in my experience, even for a dozen rounds.

I'll give it another go. Seems like enough people here who have BTDT like the stuff. You have pulled more triggers than I have, so I am going to take another shot at it.

Any of you notice increased wear, though? I know that sample of 1 is likely nothing, but it worries me nonetheless.

From my usage, it seems the paste lubricates fine whether it has melted or not. I only use the CLP in the bore, and on small parts where it is difficult to get the paste into.

But yeah, you don't need to use gunscrubber with this stuff, just wipe down, hot or cold, though it's a bit easier if the part is warm.

tb-av
12-01-11, 08:57
I'm a bit confused on how you guys are using this stuff.

Now my use has been on handguns only.... but I was under the impression that no other oil, grease, or cleaner should be used in combination with FL.

So wrt to cleaning prior to re-lube, what other chemicals do you use if any. I have not found that I need any other. I will wipe things down and if there is build-up, I just apply a little more FL and scrub it in which seems to clear it right up.

In fact my 1911 would build up deposit right at the feed ramp and rail adjacent. I used to have a hell of time getting that off with Hoppes 9. Now the build-up is less and it cleans up easier. I do have to use a stiff short bristle nylon brush.

I put a little FL oil on a patch and run through the barrel and then follow up with dry patch. Very quick. All I shot is lead in that gun though.

My PPS cleans up in a very similar fashion though.

I did however clean these guns to dry metal and place in the oven for initial application.

But I thought FL + other chemical was a no go.

Paladin801
12-01-11, 09:09
This is entirely too much bull shit and not enough ice cream. Either you like it or don't. It either works or doesn't. You either read the instructions on how to use it or choose to do it your own way. It works for me so enough is enough. That is all !

a0cake
12-01-11, 09:10
You're using it properly as per the instructions. As you said, you should not be using anything else to clean on a regular basis between shooting sessions.


I'm a bit confused on how you guys are using this stuff.

Now my use has been on handguns only.... but I was under the impression that no other oil, grease, or cleaner should be used in combination with FL.

So wrt to cleaning prior to re-lube, what other chemicals do you use if any. I have not found that I need any other. I will wipe things down and if there is build-up, I just apply a little more FL and scrub it in which seems to clear it right up.

In fact my 1911 would build up deposit right at the feed ramp and rail adjacent. I used to have a hell of time getting that off with Hoppes 9. Now the build-up is less and it cleans up easier. I do have to use a stiff short bristle nylon brush.

I put a little FL oil on a patch and run through the barrel and then follow up with dry patch. Very quick. All I shot is lead in that gun though.

My PPS cleans up in a very similar fashion though.

I did however clean these guns to dry metal and place in the oven for initial application.

But I thought FL + other chemical was a no go.

WS6
12-01-11, 09:10
I'm a bit confused on how you guys are using this stuff.

Now my use has been on handguns only.... but I was under the impression that no other oil, grease, or cleaner should be used in combination with FL.

So wrt to cleaning prior to re-lube, what other chemicals do you use if any. I have not found that I need any other. I will wipe things down and if there is build-up, I just apply a little more FL and scrub it in which seems to clear it right up.

In fact my 1911 would build up deposit right at the feed ramp and rail adjacent. I used to have a hell of time getting that off with Hoppes 9. Now the build-up is less and it cleans up easier. I do have to use a stiff short bristle nylon brush.

I put a little FL oil on a patch and run through the barrel and then follow up with dry patch. Very quick. All I shot is lead in that gun though.

My PPS cleans up in a very similar fashion though.

I did however clean these guns to dry metal and place in the oven for initial application.

But I thought FL + other chemical was a no go.

From what I understand, FL will destroy petroleum based chemicals. I just mixed some FL and BF CLP to see what would happen (on a spare piece of metal) and it looks like nothing has happened. No foaming, balling up, turning colors, etc. They seem to play nice enough together that you won't have any problem transitioning over to FL.

Visibly, it looks like the FL paste "absorbed" the BF CLP, and dried as usual, albeit with a slight amber tint. "nothing to see here".

I decided to give it another go, since I don't want to be inhaling CLP and other crap and I do plan on running a suppressor 99% of the time.
Lungs>Firearm. If it functions and doesn't do too bad, I will use it.

http://images-kitup.military.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/photo43-e1321853866574.jpg

Grizzly16
12-01-11, 09:12
Lube threads are so gay.


Classic :lol:

tonyxcom
12-01-11, 13:01
I just use a heat gun to warm the parts up, simply to make the application of the paste easier, as it turns to liquid immediately and is easier to spread around.

On the first application, I would let them cool and hit them with the heat gun 2 or 3 times again. Probably not worth the trouble but it certainly didn't hurt.

I use a bore snake (2 passes) to get the liquid down the barrel.

On my 15-22 I use the liquid on the bolt though as the paste causes short strokes with Mini-Mags when cold. I really appreciate the cleanup on my 22's. I would have use a stiff brush to get the carbon scabs off the feedramps when using BF-CLP. With FL, it wipes off with a towel and doesn't look like a scab.

If anyone wants more of the Microfiber towels that come with the FL kit, Costco has the exact same yellow ones. 60 for 12 or 13 bux. Pretty linty when new, so toss them in dryer for a bit.

Jsop
12-01-11, 13:41
On my 15-22 I use the liquid on the bolt though as the paste causes short strokes with Mini-Mags when cold.


I don't know if its been covered in another FL thread yet but I wonder how the paste would react in cold weather in AR. I know it melts when warm, but what about first shot out of a very cold rifle.

tb-av
12-01-11, 13:43
@a0cake, thanks, that's what I thought. Just wanted to be certain.

@WS6

They seem to play nice enough together that you won't have any problem transitioning over to FL.

Like I mentioned.. I have already transitioned. I detailed striped everything, solvent cleaned it, dried it, alcohol cleaned it all, dried again, inspected and re-cleaned anything that needed it.

Then I basically baked everything in FL. At this point, nothing touches the gun except FL.

I would say I have to maintain it along the same "shots per cleaning" but it cleans up faster and easier. Function is equal to before with various oils and I don't have to deal with solvents..... and oddly enough, I barely even notice the wintergreen smell now either. Guess I'm used to it.

I think you should pick one gun, and do it the way I did it. Get it down to metal only and get the parts thoroughly hot, not just a surface warming, then slather on the FL and let it simmer a while. Then clean up with FL only.

samuse
12-01-11, 20:27
Metal does not absorb oil. Sorry.

It's mint scented vegetable grease and oil.

So some people lubed their Glocks and ARs and they worked? Holy shit.:suicide:

Zog
12-01-11, 20:39
How do you explain the seasoning process that has been used on Cast Iron Cooking Pots for hundreds of years?

samuse
12-01-11, 20:56
How do you explain the seasoning process that has been used on Cast Iron Cooking Pots for hundreds of years?


It creeps into the voids.

A hard steel bolt and carrier won't absorb anything.

If steel really could absorb oil, it would eventually become saturated and oil would be coming out the other side.

There are many pipelines in the world that are 80 years old and the oil stays on the inside. Even in South Texas where it's hot. Tankers stay in the ocean for 25 years full of oil and it never soaks through to the other side. Think about all the diesel in steel tanks and pipelines, jet fuel in aluminum, kerosene in cast iron... Never soaks through.

This FROGLUBE has grown men sticking their guns in the oven, blowing on them with hair dryers and arguing on the internet. Crazy stuff for sure.:lol:

militarymoron
12-01-11, 20:57
How do you explain the seasoning process that has been used on Cast Iron Cooking Pots for hundreds of years?
it's a coating.

a0cake
12-01-11, 21:00
The hair dryer is to temporarily decrease the viscosity so that the FL can be distributed thoroughly. I personally never said anything about FL being absorbed into the bolt or carrier (at least to a point that could be considered substantial). That obviously doesn't happen (lube passing completely through the metal to the other side). I may have missed it but I'm not tracking anybody saying it does?

All this discussion doesn't make one bit of difference in the end. I like FL, especially for suppressed rifles. When you shoot suppressed enough, getting sprayed in the face with CLP gets annoying after a while. Even with eye protection it gets in your eyes. Then it's a PITA to clean off the lenses if you want to be able to see shit. FL makes the whole process much more pleasant. If it didn't work I wouldn't use it just because it's convenient. But since I've never had an issue caused by FL, I'll continue to use it for the sake of not getting sprayed in the face with CLP.

davidjinks
12-01-11, 21:04
I decided it ain't worth it.......

An Undocumented Worker
12-01-11, 21:08
The biggest thing I like about the stuff is that it stays where you put it, yet it isn't as thick as say wheel bearing grease.

And when it heats up the stuff flows and gets distibuted where it may be needed.

Whether it seasons the metal or not, I don't care. It does seem to leave the surface slick even when there doesn't appear to be any lube on it.

militarymoron
12-01-11, 21:19
This FROGLUBE has grown men sticking their guns in the oven, blowing on them with hair dryers and arguing on the internet. Crazy stuff for sure.:lol:

i think the idea behind it is the heat expands the metal; expanding the voids, since the microscopic surface is rough. if the lube is smeared on to fill those voids, and the metal cools, some voids may close over some lube and 'trap' it there, and 'release' it when heated again.
whether or not the heat from a hairdryer is enough to do that, i have no idea, and if heating makes a difference, the same method should apply to any paste lube or grease, not only froglube.

i use froglube because it cleans up easy, and the paste lasts longer on my gun during a shooting session.

jessfest
12-01-11, 21:24
I decided it ain't worth it.......

.....why not?

Tapatalked

tb-av
12-01-11, 22:13
Never soaks through.

I don't think anyone was ever suggesting it soaks through anything. I was under the impression it filled microscopic pores to the point where you basically end up with the FL sliding on itself so to speak.

I'm just one of those people that when I decide to try something new I try to follow the directions. It's fine to be skeptical but one still need use it per the directions to find out if any skepticism is valid. Otherwise if it fails, you really haven't proven anything.

Outlaw621
12-02-11, 07:47
In reference to the OP, it is like electronics. When you purchase something electronic the manufacturer named on the packaging claims to have designed and made the item when in actuality it is not completely true. A good example is LCD computer monitors. There are only 4-5 actual LCD manufacturers but there are a crap load of company's claiming they design and manufacture their own LCD panels. It is simply called re-branding. It is the world we live in.

markm
12-02-11, 08:33
The biggest thing I like about the stuff is that it stays where you put it, yet it isn't as thick as say wheel bearing grease.

Yeah.... the consistency seems to be just right.

WS6
12-02-11, 09:04
In reference to the OP, it is like electronics. When you purchase something electronic the manufacturer named on the packaging claims to have designed and made the item when in actuality it is not completely true. A good example is LCD computer monitors. There are only 4-5 actual LCD manufacturers but there are a crap load of company's claiming they design and manufacture their own LCD panels. It is simply called re-branding. It is the world we live in.

I have since posting that discovered that one of the dealers for FL has been forthcoming about the information.

It was discovered in a cannon by some engineers. They wondered what it was. They had it analyzed. They then created Track Lube. Someone gave Lasky some TL, he liked it. He sought out a lab to tweak it a bit into FL. He then marketed it as FL.

Now comes my speculation: Considering that Lasky is a SEAL, and from what I gather, SEAL's are a rather tight-knit group, it is not out of the real of possibility that another of his SEAL friends was given the same stuff, maybe by Lasky himself, and he then created SEAL-1.

For me, the time-line/marketing now fits. It's a bit of hyperbole, but not a total lie, and well within the realm of what passes for honest in today's society.

Makes me feel a lot better about the product, although I still wonder what anti-wear additives it has and how it does on that front. Silicone makes for a slick feeling metal-metal slide, but it sure as hell isn't protecting it. I want to know if FL protects as well as "feels slick".

Going to give them a ring today.

tb-av
12-02-11, 09:42
I want to know if FL protects as well as "feels slick".

FL, in my opinion, does not feel anything like silicone.

Silicone always struck me as having sort of a slippery plasticy feel. Annoying when you get it on your hands.

FL doesn't have that feel to it and it wipes right off your hands.

3in1 oil... watery
FL liquid... not as watery and when you wipe off excess it doesn't seem to continue to run.

It's a difficult thing to explain. It doesn't "feel" like grease or oil.

You could put FL grease on your finger tip, then rub it into your hands. You could then pick up your gun or grab a steering wheel and not feel like you would loose your grip.

It's almost got a little waxy feel to it. I wonder if some bees had made a home in that cannon?

WS6
12-02-11, 09:48
FL, in my opinion, does not feel anything like silicone.

Silicone always struck me as having sort of a slippery plasticy feel. Annoying when you get it on your hands.

FL doesn't have that feel to it and it wipes right off your hands.

3in1 oil... watery
FL liquid... not as watery and when you wipe off excess it doesn't seem to continue to run.

It's a difficult thing to explain. It doesn't "feel" like grease or oil.

You could put FL grease on your finger tip, then rub it into your hands. You could then pick up your gun or grab a steering wheel and not feel like you would loose your grip.

It's almost got a little waxy feel to it. I wonder if some bees had made a home in that cannon?

What kind of metal/metal wear properties does wax have?

SOWT
12-02-11, 10:21
I have since posting that discovered that one of the dealers for FL has been forthcoming about the information.

It was discovered in a cannon by some engineers. They wondered what it was. They had it analyzed. They then created Track Lube. Someone gave Lasky some TL, he liked it. He sought out a lab to tweak it a bit into FL. He then marketed it as FL.

Now comes my speculation: Considering that Lasky is a SEAL, and from what I gather, SEAL's are a rather tight-knit group, it is not out of the real of possibility that another of his SEAL friends was given the same stuff, maybe by Lasky himself, and he then created SEAL-1.

For me, the time-line/marketing now fits. It's a bit of hyperbole, but not a total lie, and well within the realm of what passes for honest in today's society.

Makes me feel a lot better about the product, although I still wonder what anti-wear additives it has and how it does on that front. Silicone makes for a slick feeling metal-metal slide, but it sure as hell isn't protecting it. I want to know if FL protects as well as "feels slick".

Going to give them a ring today.

Interesting, I was at Kennedy Space Center last week and they had a display that seemed to imply the stuff was developed for them, and has led to other spin-offs. Should have taken a picture of the display.

I just bought some and will have to try it out. There is a .pdf on another website where the guy talks about using it, I need to refind that one too.

WS6
12-02-11, 10:31
Interesting, I was at Kennedy Space Center last week and they had a display that seemed to imply the stuff was developed for them, and has led to other spin-offs. Should have taken a picture of the display.

I just bought some and will have to try it out. There is a .pdf on another website where the guy talks about using it, I need to refind that one too.

Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.techbriefs.com/content/view/2754/118/

davidjinks
12-02-11, 14:43
I'm going to default on a markm'ism...

Lube threads are so gay.



.....why not?

Tapatalked

Iraqgunz
12-02-11, 15:11
I have been contacted by the master distributor for FrogLube and they advised me that if anyone wants to get some free samples to try out then contact them on their website- www.tacticalsanta.com. They will also have a Facebook page up and running shortly- American Froglube Distribution Ltd.

They will also answer any questions about Froglube as long as it isn't considered a company secret.

SOWT
12-02-11, 15:25
Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.techbriefs.com/content/view/2754/118/

That's it.
The display board showed the various spin-off products.
Didn't have FL, but I suspect this was the prime source for them.

tb-av
12-02-11, 15:56
It really hasn't got cold around here yet but I put a small bottle of FL oil in my truck.

the temps dropped in the 30's I think last night. anyway, mid-day today probably 50+ when I got in the truck. the oil had solidified somewhat to where it was a solid form I could turn the bottle over sideways and around and the mass stayed in one place. However it almost instantly started to go back into solution.

So anyone planning on using it in very cold might need something else perhaps. I was surprised to see this. then again maybe it only gets to a certain level of solid and stops. would be interesting to know.

Dsm2nr
12-02-11, 20:16
I'm in Minnesnowta and the high tomorrow is supposed to be 37* if anyone has any want / ideas for somewhat cold weather tests. I already use FL on all of my firearms but don't let them sit out all night in the freeze.

a0cake
12-02-11, 20:20
I've actually asked (imagine that) the makers of Froglube about cold weather performance. Their response went something like this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Froglube meets all requirements of MIL-L-63460, including cold weather performance."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FYI, MIL-L-63460 specifies that CLP must be effective operating in the temperature range of -60 to +160 F.

A wise man once said - "Trust, but verify."

Take it for what its worth. I have not yet been able to use FL in cold weather, so I cannot offer firsthand experience in this specific instance.

WS6
12-02-11, 20:25
Spoke with Mr Lasky today. He told me that froglube has been 4 ball scar/wear tested and did well and exceeded mil spec for the test. He was not at liberty to tell me the scar measurement.

Univibe
12-02-11, 20:26
There's a flavor-of-the-month thing going on for AR lubes, just as there is for the rifles themselves.

Few years ago, it was "Militec is essence of the Gods!"

Then we cast Militec aside, and worshipped at the altar of Slip 2000.

Now the hot stuff is Froglube.

Meanwhile, old Univibe pegs along, putting BF LP on the bolt generously, BF CLP lightly everywhere else . . . .

Preliator
12-02-11, 20:30
I'm in Minnesnowta and the high tomorrow is supposed to be 37* if anyone has any want / ideas for somewhat cold weather tests. I already use FL on all of my firearms but don't let them sit out all night in the freeze.

Already tested it in temps around 17* F with Antlad. worked fine in those limited tests. I will be getting some soon for myself and will be taking it out in sub-zero temps for more extensive testing at low temps.

a0cake
12-02-11, 20:36
There's a flavor-of-the-month thing going on for AR lubes, just as there is for the rifles themselves.

Few years ago, it was "Militec is essence of the Gods!"

Then we cast Militec aside, and worshipped at the altar of Slip 2000.

Now the hot stuff is Froglube.

Meanwhile, old Univibe pegs along, putting BF LP on the bolt generously, BF CLP lightly everywhere else . . . .

BF CLP is a just decent cleaner, a marginal lubricant, and an excellent preservative.

This is a technical forum where we discuss tangibles. This is how people learn and product performance progresses. By combining knowledge and experience about new products all of us learn and progress. Remember, "all of us are smarter than one of us."

This thread needs more non-informative posts such as yours like a fish needs a bicycle.

WS6
12-02-11, 20:48
Also, Mr Lasky did also say that he and others who wish to remain anonymous did "take the lubricant from an industrial setting".

An Undocumented Worker
12-02-11, 21:10
While I like and will continue to use Froglube untill I see reason to do otherwise, I have to say that Froglube seems to getting far more scrutiny than any other lubricant I have seen discussed on the internet. I doubt we can even find data on a fourball wear test for the various forms of Slip2000. And I tried out Froglube while being generally satisfied with Slip2000. I've never even seen anyone ask for them for data on a fourball wear test or from any other firearms lubricant.

Why there is so much scrutiny on Froglube, I don't know, other than it seems to sit in a different paradigm of lubrication than what we are used to. I'm glad the scrutiny is there, though it does seem a little OCD.

WS6
12-02-11, 21:51
There is plenty of technical data for slip on the net. I would link but am on my cell.

Iraqgunz
12-02-11, 22:36
Thousands of years ago man used clubs and spears to hunt. 600 years ago (approx.) people thought the earth was square.

Things change......it's called progress.


There's a flavor-of-the-month thing going on for AR lubes, just as there is for the rifles themselves.

Few years ago, it was "Militec is essence of the Gods!"

Then we cast Militec aside, and worshipped at the altar of Slip 2000.

Now the hot stuff is Froglube.

Meanwhile, old Univibe pegs along, putting BF LP on the bolt generously, BF CLP lightly everywhere else . . . .

Paladin801
12-02-11, 23:03
Has anyone ever heard about beating a dead horse. Still entirely too much Bull Shit and not enough ice cream. I've got a pretty good supply of FL, but for those who don't like it or may be afraid it will turn your bolt to concrete, there are a few of us that would be glad for the gift. I don't care if it's made out of ground monkey nuts for some secret space project. It's working for me. That is all !

g5m
12-02-11, 23:45
Spent about 20 minutes speaking with the retired Captain/Seal today.
It was entertaining and informative and I'll be trying his product.

oef24
12-03-11, 00:35
I'm going to give FL a shot. I have used Eezox because of the rust preventative properties. If FL is as good or better, I will stick with it.

O

m1a_scoutguy
12-03-11, 00:43
Has anyone ever heard about beating a dead horse. Still entirely too much Bull Shit and not enough ice cream. I've got a pretty good supply of FL, but for those who don't like it or may be afraid it will turn your bolt to concrete, there are a few of us that would be glad for the gift. I don't care if it's made out of ground monkey nuts for some secret space project. It's working for me. That is all !

I agree,,I just cleaned one of my ARs that I gave the FL treatment to back in July or so & during that time I did 2 Carbine Shoots,,(Not a class,,just Fun shootin) lots of range trips with well over 1k of Wolf,,Priva 556,,reloads etc and I pretty much wiped everything down & reapplied & my Go To Rifle is ready for a Training Class this Sunday !!! I took a tooth brush and hit the Bolt lugs for about 10 seconds,,,scrapped the tail of the bolt,,barely,,there were like 2 or 3 tiny spots of carbon on it,,thats it !!! It took me half the time it normally does !! I Like it,,I believe in it and will use it exclusively from now on,,,I think its awesome stuff !!! Well,,thats my 2cents worth,,take it for what it is I guess. :D I have over 800 rds of Wolf for the Class this weekend,,plus some otherBrass cased stuff as backup,,I'll look the rifle over when I get home from the class and do a evaluation after a Solid Hard day & let ya know how it looks !!

cqbdriver
12-03-11, 04:33
I doubt we can even find data on a fourball wear test for the various forms of Slip2000. .

Here is the Four-Ball Wear Test results from Slip along with other test results:
http://www.slip2000.com/gunlube_info.html

skullworks
12-03-11, 06:36
I just don't understand the (implied) importance of whether or not Frog Lube (or any other product for that matter) was "discovered" by Cpt Lasky? As others have stated there are tons of products out there that are re-branded with little or no changes; but as long as they work who cares which came first? As non-firearms related examples; anyone wonder why cars from Ford, Bedford and Opel all look(ed) the same? GMC and Chevy anyone? The Nissan Primastar and Renault Trafic?

Regarding the SEAL connection - yes in this case Frog Lube is marketed by a Navy SEAL, but how many times haven't we heard/read "..as used by the Special Forces/Navy SEAL:s/Roger's Rangers/Wilderness Girls..." in promotional material? I work in sales, and my dad spent his whole life as an AD in advertising, so I tend to ignore most of the promotional hoo-haah surrounding products - I prefer to listen to first hand accounts of how the product/service performs.

In this case I have no first hand experience with Frog Lube, but I have an AR on the way and I may give it a try as enough high round count guys are speaking well of it.

Also, no offense, but since WS6 claims to have a slight (?) case of OCD (though not as it pertains to reading manuals and following instructions?) the way he choses to do things is not representative of normal use, and therefore his results will obviously not be normal either.

An Undocumented Worker
12-03-11, 07:05
Here is the Four-Ball Wear Test results from Slip along with other test results:
http://www.slip2000.com/gunlube_info.html

The results for the fourball wear test are not present. They left the proper feild blank.

WS6
12-03-11, 08:35
I just don't understand the (implied) importance of whether or not Frog Lube (or any other product for that matter) was "discovered" by Cpt Lasky? As others have stated there are tons of products out there that are re-branded with little or no changes; but as long as they work who cares which came first? As non-firearms related examples; anyone wonder why cars from Ford, Bedford and Opel all look(ed) the same? GMC and Chevy anyone? The Nissan Primastar and Renault Trafic?

Regarding the SEAL connection - yes in this case Frog Lube is marketed by a Navy SEAL, but how many times haven't we heard/read "..as used by the Special Forces/Navy SEAL:s/Roger's Rangers/Wilderness Girls..." in promotional material? I work in sales, and my dad spent his whole life as an AD in advertising, so I tend to ignore most of the promotional hoo-haah surrounding products - I prefer to listen to first hand accounts of how the product/service performs.

In this case I have no first hand experience with Frog Lube, but I have an AR on the way and I may give it a try as enough high round count guys are speaking well of it.

Also, no offense, but since WS6 claims to have a slight (?) case of OCD (though not as it pertains to reading manuals and following instructions?) the way he choses to do things is not representative of normal use, and therefore his results will obviously not be normal either.

Exactly how did I differ from the proceedure listed?

Chemical de-grease of weapon...check

Applied FL paste after heating metal to 150-200*F (oven is not so precise, sorry) by itself...check

What exactly was not done correctly? Is Froglube such a specialty item that I need to follow the same clinical, regimented procedure with it that I do when changing a PICC line dressing or something?


As to "why is it important" Well, Mr. Lasky himself cleared that up. He did not discover it, but rather a group of people did, and another group helped him "weaponize" it. These people wish to remain anonymous, and he is "not at liberty" to discuss Trillium-Solutions INC or to reveal the 4-ball wear test numbers other than to say it is superior to the minimal mil-spec. I have no reason to call Mr. Lasky a liar, and not knowing the man, I refuse to insult his character by doing so, and so I will defer to what he told me as true unless proven otherwise. He (in my opinion) cleared up where the chemical originated from when he told me that it was "taken out of industrial use" and then modified. Technically, this means that he can claim to have developed it, even if all he did was change the color. Like you said, it's advertising.

He has given it to numerous SEALs, and they like it, and Rana and others I have spoken with also like it. I take Mr. Lasky at his word that it passed the 4-ball wear test. He told me that they are now doing a battery of quantitative tests on it but the results are proprietary, etc.

Why is he playing the cards so close? I don't know. It's not my company. However, we now know that during the 4-ball wear test, it had a scar measuring < than 0.8, or Mr. Lasky is a liar. Those are the ONLY two conclusions that can be reached after my conversation with the man, and unless I have stone-cold evidence to that effect, I refuse to call him a liar.

skullworks
12-03-11, 09:33
Exactly how did I differ from the proceedure listed?
After having applied the product you used gun scrubber and/or other cleaning products when the instructions say not to (big "Uncheck"). You yourself pointed out that this created problems.


As to "why is it important" Well, Mr. Lasky himself cleared that up.
Read your original post (http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1153085&postcount=1) again. You are the one who questioned the origin of the product and implied this was important (though I don't think anyone else here could figure out why it would be). Now that you have questioned Cpt Lasky, and he has confirmed he didn't create the original recipe in his secret lab, you somehow feel justified in questioning the origin of the product to begin with? To what purpose? How was this ever important?

g5m
12-03-11, 10:26
The results for the fourball wear test are not present. They left the proper feild blank.

The info is in the link to Herguth Labs.
Max. wear 0.8 mm to pass test
and wear with the Slip product was 0.56mm

It looks like a misplaced number on the linked page.

WS6
12-03-11, 10:27
After having applied the product you used gun scrubber and/or other cleaning products when the instructions say not to (big "Uncheck"). You yourself pointed out that this created problems.

I have not found any instructions for removing FL from a firearm permanently. The best I found was a dealer advising the use of Alcohol. The instructions regarding FL involve cleaning the weapon, not stripping it completely of the product. I, like others, had some trouble doing it. Lends credibility to the soaking into the pores claim, though.

Read your original post (http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1153085&postcount=1) again. You are the one who questioned the origin of the product and implied this was important (though I don't think anyone else here could figure out why it would be). Now that you have questioned Cpt Lasky, and he has confirmed he didn't create the original recipe in his secret lab, you somehow feel justified in questioning the origin of the product to begin with? To what purpose? How was this ever important?

How is it not important? When I want to know about something, I want to know all about it. Take Weapon Shield for example...

Who: George Fennel
What:Weapon Shield/FULL MSDS available on his website
Where: Steel Shield Industries
Why: Alternative/upgrade to FP10 after he broke from the company
How: Using what he learned inventing FP10

THAT is a complete profile. I know how it evolved, who evolved it, who produces it, etc.

With Froglube there were many rumors, noone was sure if it was made by Trillium-Solutions ("I am not at liberty to discuss Trillium"--Mr. Lasky) or Ademonous, noone knows to-date who really discovered the original formula, and Mr. Lasky does not appear to be willing to divulge any information about the product except that he intends to market it from the ground-up to the military and that it is being tested objectively and quantitatively as well as qualitatively, the quantitative results are unavailable to us.

I am not a religious man. "It's here and it seems to work" doesn't do it for me. Facts>Faith. Fact is that it stays wet and stays where you put it. Faith is that it's actually protecting my weapon--which is now fact after speaking with Mr. Lasky, unless you accuse him of false statement.

Yes, I did question where/how/what. Yes, I feel 100% justified asking where something/how something came to be if I am going to spend my money on it. You don't? That's your business, and I'm staying out of it.

SOWT
12-03-11, 10:51
With Froglube there were many rumors, noone was sure if it was made by Trillium-Solutions ("I am not at liberty to discuss Trillium"--Mr. Lasky) or Ademonous, noone knows to-date who really discovered the original formula, and Mr. Lasky does not appear to be willing to divulge any information about the product except that he intends to market it from the ground-up to the military and that it is being tested objectively and quantitatively as well as qualitatively, the quantitative results are unavailable to us.

I am not a religious man. "It's here and it seems to work" doesn't do it for me. Facts>Faith. Fact is that it stays wet and stays where you put it. Faith is that it's actually protecting my weapon--which is now fact after speaking with Mr. Lasky, unless you accuse him of false statement.

Yes, I did question where/how/what. Yes, I feel 100% justified asking where something/how something came to be if I am going to spend my money on it. You don't? That's your business, and I'm staying out of it.

I wouldn't put my data out if the Military was my main market. FL may be the best today, but will it be the best next year? i.e. I need to win as many contracts today, then improve the product when someone comes up with something better. Everyone putting their specs on the internet is great (for their competitors).

I have a bottle in my office, and will probably put it on a rifle and pistol next week. The fact that it is bio-friendly is an added bonus as I have little kids, teenagers and an Airman running around the house, and I don't have to worry as much about them knocking it over, etc.

Iraqgunz
12-03-11, 13:56
WS6,

Seriously. Don't buy it or use it. Stick with something else like CLP, WeaponShield, etc...

Dsm2nr
12-03-11, 14:15
WS6, there is error in your logic. You say that Mr. Lasky saying it's protecting your weapon is a fact that it does. It's fact that he said that, but faith that you're taking his word for it. It is also fact that a lot of people are telling you it works. It's also faith that you're believing Mr. Lasky when he says it passed the four ball test. This is not fact as it is not confirmed. There is no data you can provide to say otherwise other than one man's word.

In your search to find answers about FL as a company or for what it's made of or it's origin, you have found almost zero.

Having said all of this, I am not questioning Mr. Lasky's word. I know FL works amazingly. I'm simply reasoning with your logic.

I digress, and side with Iraqgunz. Use it, leave it, I don't care.

skullworks
12-03-11, 14:17
I am not a religious man. "It's here and it seems to work" doesn't do it for me. Facts>Faith. Fact is that it stays wet and stays where you put it. Faith is that it's actually protecting my weapon--which is now fact after speaking with Mr. Lasky, unless you accuse him of false statement.
So up until the moment Cpt. Lasky told you that FL protects your rifle you didn't think it did. But based on him saying so now you do? Kinda like asking a priest if God exists...

:suicide:

ETA: I guess Dsm2nr beat me to it.

WS6
12-03-11, 17:38
If the owner of the company makes a direct, closed-ended claim, I am inclined to believe it.

Why?

If we find out that it is false, the company will sink like Slick-50.

I'm sorry I didn't jump on the little band wagon, but I like to investigate a bit first.

Iraqgunz
12-03-11, 23:34
I actually met with Cpt. Larry Lasky today at the SAR Show in Phoenix. We talked at length about FrogLube and exchanged thoughts. He also explained to me why he does not want to be wrapped up in internet drama.

It's not a cop out on his part, he just prefers to let sleeping dogs lie and let the product sell itself.

For those that doubt all you have to do is request some free samples through the link I posted. If you don't like it, no harm, no foul. Then go back to whatever you want.

He is truly passionate about FrogLube and hopes that people will keep and open mind. I am going to try some tests here so of my own just for S&G's.

WS6
12-03-11, 23:56
I actually met with Cpt. Larry Lasky today at the SAR Show in Phoenix. We talked at length about FrogLube and exchanged thoughts. He also explained to me why he does not want to be wrapped up in internet drama.

It's not a cop out on his part, he just prefers to let sleeping dogs lie and let the product sell itself.

For those that doubt all you have to do is request some free samples through the link I posted. If you don't like it, no harm, no foul. Then go back to whatever you want.

He is truly passionate about FrogLube and hopes that people will keep and open mind. I am going to try some tests here so of my own just for S&G's.

I was favorably impressed as well, and applauded the decision to stay off the net. However, I was trained to seek evidence for the reason behind, and data supporting decisions I make. While lubing my noveske is not near as critical as medicating a patient, I apply the same principals to most aspects of my life. I do not know why froglube has such a limited msds or why the captain has decided not to publish quantitative data. While I believe him, he has not been able to tell me how much better it is than other lubes, nor would he describe the ep in the product. Other companies have no such qualms. While I do not question his honesty, I do question whether or not I want to use a product that is being marketed with little to no supporting data. For me, this is not acceptable practice and I will revisit froglube at such a time when a proper description of the product exists. If you like it, use it. If not, don't. Sums it up very well. I never put miracle addatives in my z06, and I'm not putting any in my noveske. Maybe my loss. Maybe not. Noone knows but Mr lasky, and he's not telling.

orionz06
12-04-11, 00:16
If they'll send it out I'll give it a shot. What's the worst thing that could happen, I end up liking it? Screw all the claims, I'll just use it and see for myself.


I have been contacted by the master distributor for FrogLube and they advised me that if anyone wants to get some free samples to try out then contact them on their website- www.tacticalsanta.com. They will also have a Facebook page up and running shortly- American Froglube Distribution Ltd.

They will also answer any questions about Froglube as long as it isn't considered a company secret.

gbackus
12-04-11, 00:40
I like frog lube, but I have experienced significant wear increase on pistol rails as opposed to my standard lubes(weaponshield grease and ewg). Works great on the AR though

davidjinks
12-04-11, 14:10
I just got done at the range today. Brought along the FL to maybe give it a run.

I didn't follow any of the directions given. Just so we are clear about that.

I ran the first 300 rounds and figured...why the hell not? I took the liquid and applied it to the rifle. What I thought was really frickin cool; I watched as the liquid displaced all the CLP on the bolt/carrier. I brushed a liberal amount of the liquid on the barrel/muzzle and any other exposed metal. The FL literally disappeared into the metal. I decided to put some more on and kept brushing it on until it wouldn't be absorbed anymore. I wiped the excess off with just a rag.

Ran another 100 rounds through the gun and hit the bolt/carrier again with a liberal amount.

After about 30-40 minutes of not shooting the rifle (Running the pistol) I came back to the table. It looked like the FL kind of dried up. I didn't realize that the liquid does this as well. I'd say it was high 40s maybe for the temp today. Picked it up, ran the last othe round through the rifle. The FL went right back to being "wet".

I'll see how the clean up goes. Like I said, I did not follow the directions. I just put it on.

WS6
12-04-11, 17:55
I just got done at the range today. Brought along the FL to maybe give it a run.

I didn't follow any of the directions given. Just so we are clear about that.

I ran the first 300 rounds and figured...why the hell not? I took the liquid and applied it to the rifle. What I thought was really frickin cool; I watched as the liquid displaced all the CLP on the bolt/carrier. I brushed a liberal amount of the liquid on the barrel/muzzle and any other exposed metal. The FL literally disappeared into the metal. I decided to put some more on and kept brushing it on until it wouldn't be absorbed anymore. I wiped the excess off with just a rag.

Ran another 100 rounds through the gun and hit the bolt/carrier again with a liberal amount.

After about 30-40 minutes of not shooting the rifle (Running the pistol) I came back to the table. It looked like the FL kind of dried up. I didn't realize that the liquid does this as well. I'd say it was high 40s maybe for the temp today. Picked it up, ran the last othe round through the rifle. The FL went right back to being "wet".

I'll see how the clean up goes. Like I said, I did not follow the directions. I just put it on.

Interesting. I have smeared FL paste onto Breakfree CLP before and rubbed the two togather and they mixed happily and formed an amber gel.

bigkracka
12-04-11, 18:05
All I really care about in relation to Froglube, is that it lubricates stuff like they say it does, cleans like they say it does, and provides decent protection from rust as compared to untreated surfaces. Oh and that it doesn't make me grow another head off of my neck.

So far it seems to be delivering on the First two claims. The third claim will be tougher to evaluate, since I have yet to have problems with rust on any of my firearms with any product.

I might not know for certain on the last claim for many years down the road, but I don't plan on buttering my toast with the stuff either.




Lastly, why make a new thread when posting this in the froglube thread would have been more appropriate?

This, who cares. Lots of folks who claim to be inventors or Specops(Strider comes to mind) turn out to be false. Froglube works better than anything else, I use it.

davidjinks
12-04-11, 18:22
I didn't use the paste, I used the liquid. The rifle was also pretty smokin hot.

Maybe that's the difference.



Interesting. I have smeared FL paste onto Breakfree CLP before and rubbed the two togather and they mixed happily and formed an amber gel.

Irish10
12-05-11, 18:06
Over the last 35+ years, 20 of them active military and 15 in Federal LE, I have had the opportunity to use most of the major clps, lubes, cleaners, etc on the market. None of them ever really impressed me till I started using FL, I use FL solely on every one of my ARs, shotguns and pistols and to this day it impresses me. My 1911s and other pistols feel like the slides are gliding on a sheet of ice. My ARs which use to take at least an hour or more to properly clean and lube can now be done in minutes. I shoot hundreds of rounds weekly and see no evidence of any type of abnormal wear. Bottom line is that it works for me and I don't forsee stopping it's use in the future and the best part is Brownells just started carrying it so I can buy it at a discount!

RIDE
12-05-11, 18:12
I received my sample kit from amazon last week... The stuff is great!! I'll continue to use it.

Iraqgunz
12-05-11, 18:14
FrogLube has asked me to update everyone about the samples. Those that have requested it will get theirs. For the moment they have asked for no new requests as they are now swamped.

eternal24k
12-05-11, 18:22
FrogLube has asked me to update everyone about the samples. Those that have requested it will get theirs. For the moment they have asked for no new requests as they are now swamped.

sweet, hope i made the cut

MrSmitty
12-05-11, 19:09
Placed an order for the 4oz/4oz kit from Tactical Santa, looking forward to trying this stuff out.

Dennis
12-05-11, 19:17
I would think that our tactical firearms have a different set of lubrication requirements than a F1 race car engine... Froglube provides lubrication features that other lubes do not, and unfortunately it does so at the apparent loss of other features that many are used to. This may explain some of the skepticism so far...

It will likely NOT work when heated to 400+F. Or maybe even fail some super high stress wear tests. Or be the indicated lubricant for open bolt weapons under continuous fire with quick change barrels.

However, when applied to an average AR-15 and run within the performance parameters of the weapon it will:
Keep all the moving parts lubricated over long shooting sessions

Stay put in-between shooting sessions with no runoff

Make cleanup easier

Be non-toxic and minty fresh!


Everyone needs to determine what they are trying to accomplish with their lube, and make their choices accordingly. I think maybe some of us have fallen into the "extremest is bestest" mentality with lubes that also explains the existence of blended ammo, folding stock & piston AR conversions, and other not fully thought out systems that appeal to our heart but not our head.

TANSTAAFL

Dennis.

Animal_Mother556
12-06-11, 09:41
So, I am reading through this thread this morning. I get to IGs post about the free samples being offered. I think to myself "I hate to do the free sample thing and bother them...I'm sure they are getting lots of requests for that right now. Ehhh...what the heck. I'll do it."

Clicked the link, composed a short e-mail requesting the product, and thanked them for their time.

I then return to this thread and keep reading...I come across IGs updated post telling us to hold off on the requests for free samples. "Well, poop. That didn't work. Oh, well."

About a half hour after my initial e-mail to TacticalSanta I saw that I had a missed call, and a message on my cell phone. Checked the message. It was a gentleman (gave his name, but I won't give it here) with American Fruglube Distribution and Tactical Santa. He advised that they received my request, and they will be sending it out within the week. He then told me to "give it a run for it's money". He thanked me for my support and said "I know you'll be getting back with us again".

I liked it. I like getting a phone call and hearing a human voice. He even said my name in the message. Small things? Yes. But, there aren't many placed that I deal with that will call you anymore.

Anyways...I just thought I would share that with you gentleman. I have never heard of Tactical Santa...but I am getting good vibes. If I likey the FroggyLube I will probably order from them.

orionz06
12-06-11, 09:45
No message or call. I might just buy it though.

WS6
12-06-11, 09:45
So, I am reading through this thread this morning. I get to IGs post about the free samples being offered. I think to myself "I hate to do the free sample thing and bother them...I'm sure they are getting lots of requests for that right now. Ehhh...what the heck. I'll do it."

Clicked the link, composed a short e-mail requesting the product, and thanked them for their time.

I then return to this thread and keep reading...I come across IGs updated post telling us to hold off on the requests for free samples. "Well, poop. That didn't work. Oh, well."

About a half hour after my initial e-mail to TacticalSanta I saw that I had a missed call, and a message on my cell phone. Checked the message. It was a gentleman (gave his name, but I won't give it here) with American Fruglube Distribution and Tactical Santa. He advised that they received my request, and they will be sending it out within the week. He then told me to "give it a run for it's money". He thanked me for my support and said "I know you'll be getting back with us again".

I liked it. I like getting a phone call and hearing a human voice. He even said my name in the message. Small things? Yes. But, there aren't many placed that I deal with that will call you anymore.

Anyways...I just thought I would share that with you gentleman. I have never heard of Tactical Santa...but I am getting good vibes. If I likey the FroggyLube I will probably order from them.

Other than UTV insulting people on forums, their marketers and Mr. Lasky have been a class act imo. I'm just waiting for test results to be published before I switch over from things that I know work. You can switch at any time, so no big. When they care to do what everyone else is doing with regard to transparency, I will be able to make an informed decision.

snakedoctor
12-07-11, 14:50
Samples inbound. I'll post back after I use it for a couple weeks or so.

pitbull
12-08-11, 20:23
I have used FL on my 6933 and have good results. Also on a few pistols thus far.
I was thinking of trying it on my new suppressor since it will live on a 22 host and can be disassemble. My thought is maybe it will help keep some buildup from happening. Anyone try this yet? Thanks.

NoveskeFan
12-10-11, 15:23
I just got the 4oz kit. Cleaned my duty gun...actually, its still apart with the FL sitting on it. I cleaned my pistol with rubbing alcohol first, applied the liquid, did some scrubbing, applied more and used my wifes blow dryer (she's not home ;)) Very suprised with how much cleaner it is right now. Gonna let it sit for a few more minutes, heat it up and wipe it down. Very pleased so far.

Iraqgunz
12-10-11, 16:05
FYI- you can also clean with it. ;)


I just got the 4oz kit. Cleaned my duty gun...actually, its still apart with the FL sitting on it. I cleaned my pistol with rubbing alcohol first, applied the liquid, did some scrubbing, applied more and used my wifes blow dryer (she's not home ;)) Very suprised with how much cleaner it is right now. Gonna let it sit for a few more minutes, heat it up and wipe it down. Very pleased so far.

NoveskeFan
12-10-11, 16:20
FYI- you can also clean with it. ;)

This stuff is great! Im thinking of throwing out all my Hoppes, Breakfree and bore cleaner:D Still want to keep the Eezox though...might have to convert it to air freshener:jester:

MrSmitty
12-12-11, 17:06
Just received my kit today, I need to get my next upper ordered so I can try it out :lazy2:

I'm interested to see how this performs in cold weather. It was in the low 40s here today, currently 32 when I made it home and got the mail. The paste had the consistency of a soft wax and the liquid was comparable to hand lotion. Body heat turned them bolt into a liquid instantly.

kartoffel
12-12-11, 19:01
If all you're looking for is a nontoxic lube that smells minty, what about good old Bore Butter, used in black powder muzzleloaders and revolvers? It it basically vegetable shortening with some mint scent.

I read a lot of apologizing for Frog Lube in this thread. If it works for you, great. Though I have a sneaking suspicion you'd get similar results with Crisco and oil of wintergreen. Either way its better than vanilla frosting or KY.

markm
12-13-11, 08:12
There's just something wrong about a Bio friendly gun product. I troubled about a product that Al Gore would like.

Littlelebowski
12-13-11, 08:14
If all you're looking for is a nontoxic lube that smells minty, what about good old Bore Butter, used in black powder muzzleloaders and revolvers? It it basically vegetable shortening with some mint scent.

I read a lot of apologizing for Frog Lube in this thread. If it works for you, great. Though I have a sneaking suspicion you'd get similar results with Crisco and oil of wintergreen. Either way its better than vanilla frosting or KY.

I used FrogLube here (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/12/aarreview-of-kyle-defoor-advanced-2-day.html). I haven't added lube to my carry Glock in over 2k rounds since lubing it with FL. I'm using it because I've proven it to work. Sound like apologizing to you?

Paladin801
12-13-11, 08:26
I used FrogLube here (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/12/aarreview-of-kyle-defoor-advanced-2-day.html). I haven't added lube to my carry Glock in over 2k rounds since lubing it with FL. I'm using it because I've proven it to work. Sound like apologizing to you?

What he said ! I formally used Bore butter on my muzzle loader. It's good for just a few shots. FL works ten times better on it now. No apologizing going on here either. Works great on my Sig P220 along with my AR. Even used it on an antique pellet rifle that was left in the elements for a couple of years. Nuff said. Pretty good on my crusty elbows too. That is all.

kartoffel
12-13-11, 11:55
I used FrogLube here (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/12/aarreview-of-kyle-defoor-advanced-2-day.html). I haven't added lube to my carry Glock in over 2k rounds since lubing it with FL. I'm using it because I've proven it to work. Sound like apologizing to you?

Not at all. Considering that a clean Glock is likely to go 2000 rounds bone dry, the addition of Frog Lube doesn't demonstrate much. No doubt it's an OK lube. Then again, so is Crisco.

markm
12-13-11, 12:02
Not at all. Considering that a clean Glock is likely to go 2000 rounds bone dry, the addition of Frog Lube doesn't demonstrate much. No doubt it's an OK lube. Then again, so is Crisco.

You're being ridiculous now. I'm no fanboy of Froglube. I haven't tried it enough yet to care one way or the other.

But your posts are absurd.

eternal24k
12-13-11, 12:07
Not at all. Considering that a clean Glock is likely to go 2000 rounds bone dry, the addition of Frog Lube doesn't demonstrate much. No doubt it's an OK lube. Then again, so is Crisco.

are you basing your posts on FrogLube on the fact it has a minty scent? Do you also go into Weaponshield threads and compare it to olive oil?

Without hands-on experience either the range or the lab to discredit the product I really see no point to any of your comments

kartoffel
12-13-11, 12:28
Without hands-on experience either the range or the lab to discredit the product I really see no point to any of your comments

Alright then. Do you know of any independent lab tests that have included FL?

It does look like a decent enough product. If only they'd offer up an MSDS or point to some independent tests. The ZOMG NAVY SEALS!!111! advertising doesn't help much, either.

eternal24k
12-13-11, 12:33
Alright then. Do you know of any independent lab tests that have included FL?

It does look like a decent enough product. If only they'd offer up an MSDS or point to some independent tests. The ZOMG NAVY SEALS!!111! advertising doesn't help much, either.

Please note that I have ZERO experience with FL and hence have not shit on or praised the product. I am waiting on a sample to try and form an opinion based on experience. I suggest you do the same.

All i see in this thread is people sharing experience and you. Nobody here gives a shit about the Navy Seals bit

Littlelebowski
12-13-11, 12:52
Not at all. Considering that a clean Glock is likely to go 2000 rounds bone dry, the addition of Frog Lube doesn't demonstrate much. No doubt it's an OK lube. Then again, so is Crisco.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Is that why you are glossing over how well this stuff performed in a 2 day carbine class using corrosive ammo? How about first hand reports from the Magpul class in AZ? Did you miss that part of the thread? If you don't like this shit, don't use it but do try and read this thread before you make yourself look stupid or willfully uninformed. Or you could just take a 2 day carbine class using a weapon lubed with Crisco 1500 rds ago ala my Froglube experience. Ante up.

kartoffel
12-13-11, 13:09
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Is that why you are glossing over how well this stuff performed in a 2 day carbine class using corrosive ammo? How about first hand reports from the Magpul class in AZ? Did you miss that part of the thread? If you don't like this shit, don't use it but do try and read this thread before you make yourself look stupid or willfully uninformed. Or you could just take a 2 day carbine class using a weapon lubed with Crisco 1500 rds ago ala my Froglube experience. Ante up.

While your anecdotal evidence is encouraging, it's not as compelling as a scientific test.

So your nitrided 5.45x39 M&P-15 didn't rust after 48 hours. Did FrogLube have anything to do with it?

orionz06
12-13-11, 13:11
Alright then. Do you know of any independent lab tests that have included FL?

It does look like a decent enough product. If only they'd offer up an MSDS or point to some independent tests. The ZOMG NAVY SEALS!!111! advertising doesn't help much, either.

Is there a testing service you prefer? One that a sample could be sent to for testing?

Littlelebowski
12-13-11, 13:14
You're just trolling now. It's not nitrided to my knowledge (parkerized, I believe, I mentioned that I had not lubed it since 1500 rds before said class, and it ran perfectly. I've come to learn through direct, personal experience that the corrosiveness of the primer salts in the Soviet surplus ammo I use is directly effected by lube choice. So far, FrogLube and Weaponshield have beaten other lubes by far.

Cue the snide bullshit remarks about Crisco......

davidjinks
12-13-11, 13:19
Not at all. Considering that a clean Glock is likely to go 2000 rounds bone dry, the addition of Frog Lube doesn't demonstrate much. No doubt it's an OK lube. Then again, so is Crisco.

So, maybe you can enlighten the rest of the masses here with your experience?

I've only used the stuff once so it's pretty much moot for me. However, with the way you're posting and some of the words you use, it appears that you have something you want to say about FL.

You keep referring to "Crisco" and the such. What is your experience with FL? Do you have any? Have you used it? Do you even know what it is?

Just curious...like I said, it appears you have some information that you want to share...

kartoffel
12-13-11, 13:29
I posted in this thread to see if there were any independent tests of FL. If you have a problem with my skepticism, well, that's your problem. I'm glad that FL works for you.

M4C has a reputation for no-BS, rational inquiry. Since my posting here seems to have incurred the wrath of the fanboy bandwagon, I'll stop now, out of respect for M4C's mission.

orionz06
12-13-11, 13:30
I posted in this thread to see if there were any independent tests of FL. If you have a problem with my skepticism, well, that's your problem. I'm glad that FL works for you.

M4C has a reputation for no-BS, rational inquiry. Since my posting here seems to have incurred the wrath of the fanboy bandwagon, I'll stop now, out of respect for M4C's mission.


Let's try this again...

Do you have a preferred lubrication tester that accepts mailed in samples?

kartoffel
12-13-11, 13:33
Let's try this again...

Do you have a preferred lubrication tester that accepts mailed in samples?

Why are you asking me? Is Google broken on your end of the internet?

orionz06
12-13-11, 13:36
Why are you asking me? Is Google broken on your end of the internet?

You are obviously not taking first hand accounts from respected posters seriously so I wasn't sure if there was an issue with any particular testing facility. Specifically one that would test Frog Lube should a sample be mailed to them.

What is "google"?

davidjinks
12-13-11, 14:22
I posted in this thread to see if there were any independent tests of FL. If you have a problem with my skepticism, well, that's your problem. I'm glad that FL works for you.

M4C has a reputation for no-BS, rational inquiry. Since my posting here seems to have incurred the wrath of the fanboy bandwagon, I'll stop now, out of respect for M4C's mission.

If this is directed at me, you apparently missed where I said I've only used it once so it's pretty moot for me...

You should take your own advice and maybe do a google search about it.

Members here have given you first hand information, not a search in google.

shua713
12-13-11, 14:53
I have used it on one 1911, and after about 1000 rds, decided I liked the way it worked. I have since started using it on more of my weapons. It is a paste until it warms up and starts working as a lube. It is very easy to clean after shooting. It goes back to a paste and doesn't make a mess. And it smells amaxing.

tonyxcom
12-13-11, 15:21
Don't feed the troll. :rolleyes:


If all you're looking for is a nontoxic lube that smells minty, what about good old Bore Butter, used in black powder muzzleloaders and revolvers? It it basically vegetable shortening with some mint scent.

I read a lot of apologizing for Frog Lube in this thread. If it works for you, great. Though I have a sneaking suspicion you'd get similar results with Crisco and oil of wintergreen. Either way its better than vanilla frosting or KY.


Not at all. Considering that a clean Glock is likely to go 2000 rounds bone dry, the addition of Frog Lube doesn't demonstrate much. No doubt it's an OK lube. Then again, so is Crisco.


Alright then. Do you know of any independent lab tests that have included FL?

It does look like a decent enough product. If only they'd offer up an MSDS or point to some independent tests. The ZOMG NAVY SEALS!!111! advertising doesn't help much, either.


While your anecdotal evidence is encouraging, it's not as compelling as a scientific test.

So your nitrided 5.45x39 M&P-15 didn't rust after 48 hours. Did FrogLube have anything to do with it?


I posted in this thread to see if there were any independent tests of FL. If you have a problem with my skepticism, well, that's your problem. I'm glad that FL works for you.

M4C has a reputation for no-BS, rational inquiry. Since my posting here seems to have incurred the wrath of the fanboy bandwagon, I'll stop now, out of respect for M4C's mission.


Why are you asking me? Is Google broken on your end of the internet?

Littlelebowski
12-13-11, 16:06
What he said ! I formally used Bore butter on my muzzle loader. It's good for just a few shots. FL works ten times better on it now. No apologizing going on here either. Works great on my Sig P220 along with my AR. Even used it on an antique pellet rifle that was left in the elements for a couple of years. Nuff said. Pretty good on my crusty elbows too. That is all.

First hand experience the that kartoffel should read.

Joker
12-13-11, 16:10
I think I stated this earlier in another Frog Lube thread, but I used it for a Magpul handgun II class, and it seemed to work extremely well.

I coated the Beretta with it prior to class, and then only reapplied it once during the entire three day course. I think 700 or so rounds after the initial cleaning, then not again till after the class. We went through pretty close to 2,000 rds total during that class. I was very impressed with the FL.

Made clean up a lot easier as well.

Iraqgunz
12-13-11, 17:43
Kartoffel,

Stay out of this thread. Thanks


While your anecdotal evidence is encouraging, it's not as compelling as a scientific test.

So your nitrided 5.45x39 M&P-15 didn't rust after 48 hours. Did FrogLube have anything to do with it?

Ring
12-14-11, 08:54
if they send a sample, ill add it to my collection....


http://i.minus.com/jQN15dHDrbTHn.JPG (http://min.us/lQN15dHDrbTHn)

Ring
12-14-11, 09:06
Don't feed the troll. :rolleyes:



to be honest as a outsider looking at this tread.... those are all legit questions..

how does X stack against Y....
are there any tests to prove this..
does what a product claim justify its price tag?

just saying "i used it and my gun didnt jam" is kinda weak... i could run a AR on WD40 and it wont jam... dont make it a great lube..

example.. i could ask "what is the best copper remover" and get 12 different answers saying "well i use X and its great" "no, i use Y is better!"..
or you can find a well done test to prove what is the best
http://www.eabco.com/KG12Test.pdf

markm
12-14-11, 09:10
to be honest as a outsider looking at this tread.... those are all legit questions..

how does X stack against Y....
are there any tests to prove this..
does what a product claim justify its price tag?


Comparing it against other products is one thing. Comparing it to Crisco is just being an ass.

tonyxcom
12-14-11, 12:40
to be honest as a outsider looking at this tread.... those are all legit questions..

2 points...

First, it is natural to be skeptical of anything. It is natural to ask questions. But there is a way to be skeptical and ask questions without being a dick, trollish and argumentative.

Second, why is it so hard for some of these "skeptics" to believe the accounts of literally hundreds of happy FrogLube users? A lot of them being well established members of "X" firearms forums across the internet.

A lot of us really don't care about any 4 ball or XYZZ tests.

I know the following to be true...

It lubricates
It cleans
It makes follow up cleanings easier
It smells good
It's non toxic
It's biodegradable

Is there another product out there that lubricates better? Probably.
Is there another product out there that cleans better? Probably.

But how many of those products are also non toxic, smell good, and are bio-degradable? I don't know of any.

I have only got 20 something bux into Froglube. I'm sure we all have hundreds of dollars, if not more, in gun accessories that didn't work out for us in a parts box. We aren't here telling everyone it works trying to protect a $20 investment.

rojocorsa
12-14-11, 13:34
I read the entire thread last night.


With that, a couple people said that they noticed increased wear on their pistol rails after using FL. How much wear exactly? I know this sounds like a dumbass question, and I'm sure these people are talking about wear in relative terms; I don't yet own and use a handgun due to age restrictions, so I really don't know how much "wear" is being talked about here.

Can someone please fill me in on the details?

Thanks

tonyxcom
12-14-11, 13:41
Are you sure it was a couple? I know of a single account of someone that used it on a 1911 (I think) and said they noticed increased wear.

IMO, I think any wear that is noticed is substantial, so long as it isn't the type of wear you would expect on a new weapon.

But I have to weigh the single negative account against the hundreds of positives and my own experience with the product.

thei3ug
12-14-11, 13:51
A skeptic can't take anecdotal evidence. People's experiences tend to validate preconceived notions. Tests are a nice way of observing what is actually happening. Setup is critical to prevent error and bias. Double blind tests are ideal, taking bias out of both the tester and the observation.

One of the complaints I saw about salt tests that the test did not adequately simulate long term use. Salt solution immersion was argued not to be a good simulation of corrosive environments because it did not take into account physical barrier properties of lubricants, that's a valid criticism. Someone can develop a new test, but it's not about specific conditions, it's about simulating long term corrosive elements and performance relative to other products.

Marketing tends to rub people the wrong way. Sometimes people link marketing with the product, for good or ill. If the marketing is perceived as misleading, they will attempt to show the product to be as faulty as the words. That is also a mistake. People can take an ethical stand on whether or not to buy a product because they feel it is questionably marketed, but it has no bearing on the physical properties.

I need to find out just how reactive this is to other cleaning/lubricating agents. Knowing my wife she will mix them and I don't want to end up with a sludge filled rifle.

I've mostly lurked watching these frog threads for weeks. If you want performance data regarding this product, you won't find it. You'll find a lot of satisfied customers, and its detractors. The best you can find is what Tony listed above. Honestly, that's enough for most people to make a decision to buy or pass.

thei3ug
12-14-11, 13:54
The perception of excess "wear" is also questionable, anecdotal. What firearm does not "wear?" What do they mean by it? Finish treatments? is there material loss that will affect the fit of parts? Is it accelerated or did the person only notice normal wear because they changed something and were looking for any performance difference?

rojocorsa
12-14-11, 14:49
Are you sure it was a couple? I know of a single account of someone that used it on a 1911 (I think) and said they noticed increased wear.

IMO, I think any wear that is noticed is substantial, so long as it isn't the type of wear you would expect on a new weapon.

But I have to weigh the single negative account against the hundreds of positives and my own experience with the product.

Sorry, you're right it could have been only that one guy. I thought it was one or two for some reason.

I guess what I should have done is to simply quote the person who said that and asked him directly.

Anyway, I am not trying to find another angle with which to fault the product. Not having long term experience with handgun use and ownership, I was just wondering what kind of "wear" he was talking about.


The perception of excess "wear" is also questionable, anecdotal. What firearm does not "wear?" What do they mean by it? Finish treatments? is there material loss that will affect the fit of parts? Is it accelerated or did the person only notice normal wear because they changed something and were looking for any performance difference?

Yup yup. I wish that account would have been more specific and descriptive.

******************
Though I am a huge fan of striving for impartiality, are we not getting a little bit too anal about it here?

I mean, we're talking about goddamn lube, an "elastic" and "complementary" good that probably hasn't that much consequence at the end of the day. It's not like you can't go back to whatever you were using previously.

However, I will admit that the way it was/is being marketed (or the way I first heard about it on Calguns), it was just asking for people to take it skeptically. I ended up writing it off until I read this thread actually. I figured that if it had a multi-page thread about it on this forum, then it was worth reading this thread.

And though anecdotal evidence isn't empirical, that's fine in this case. Even with Little Lebowski's single example using it in a 5.45x39 AR and running it hard, hell I think that's enough to not be so skeptical of it. No point in being anal-retentive about it, like I said, it's just some damn lube.

Now as for which person is selling it, who really gives a damn if the product works? And like it was said earlier, no one here gives a shit if OMFG-Delta! or the SEALS use it. I think that's just a little amateurish marketing on their part. But whatever, that doesn't matter too much either.

MistWolf
12-14-11, 15:11
Now you've done it. You used the words "anal" and "lube" in the same sentence

thopkins22
12-14-11, 15:19
Folks, at some point lubes and oils all do the same crap. It doesn't matter what they were designed for or whether it's vegetable oil, synthetic oil, or proper oil from beneath the earth. It reduces friction and floats grime(and to a minor almost irrelevant level cushions and cools.) Some will run away quicker, some will burn off quicker, and some are carcinogens.

I find ANY report of visually noticing increased wear on a properly lubricated firearm as almost certainly BS. Whether it was properly lubricated with Slip/FL/or black and worn out motor oil.

Your AR is NOT a race car. It's a relatively simple contraption with very few moving parts, under far less stress and heat.

I like Frog Lube, but I like Slip2000 EWL too. Hell I've gotten to the range with a new gun I forgot to lube and pulled my dipstick and smeared it on the bolt with good results.

WS6
12-15-11, 00:37
I suppose my main compunction remains that there IS test data out there re: Falex, 4-ball, etc., and that Mr. Lasky has chosen not to share it.

There could be any number of reasons for that, and I am not going to hypothesize. However, I will continue to keep my ear to the ground and see what comes of it.

Interesting thread so far. Very heavy on emotion/experience. Light to the point of absence on fact.

orionz06
12-15-11, 00:38
I suppose my main compunction remains that there IS test data out there re: Falex, 4-ball, etc., and that Mr. Lasky has chosen not to share it.

There could be any number of reasons for that, and I am not going to hypothesize. However, I will continue to keep my ear to the ground and see what comes of it.

Interesting thread so far. Very heavy on emotion/experience. Light to the point of absence on fact.

Testing is cheap. I actually might be able to get it done for free. I have an email out to a guy I know who does it.

WS6
12-15-11, 00:40
Testing is cheap. I actually might be able to get it done for free. I have an email out to a guy I know who does it.

If you are able to do so, I would be very interested in the results!

thopkins22
12-15-11, 00:44
The question is what if it doesn't test quite as well as EWL or Militec or whatever. Will you decide it's no good even though it clearly lubricates well enough to keep guns working, stays in place, is non-toxic, and smells nice?

There are other non-toxic lubes, that's true. But at what point do we say it has enough lubricity(even if not the most,) and start giving more weight to the other aspects of a lubricant?

FWIW, I still use Slip 2000 EWL and EWG on my rifles...but I'm using Frog Lube on my shotgun and Glocks with success.

WS6
12-15-11, 00:46
The question is what if it doesn't test quite as well as EWL or Militec or whatever. Will you decide it's no good even though it clearly lubricates well enough to keep guns working, stays in place, is non-toxic, and smells nice?

There are other non-toxic lubes, that's true. But at what point do we say it has enough lubricity(even if not the most,) and start giving more weight to the other aspects of a lubricant?

Of course not, If it performs within the standard variance of common firearm lubricants, I would happily switch over to it. I simply refuse to run something on my stuff that isn't at least as good a lube as BF CLP. Moreso my pistol (P226 Elite ST) than my AR.

thopkins22
12-15-11, 00:55
Of course not, If it performs within the standard variance of common firearm lubricants, I would happily switch over to it. I simply refuse to run something on my stuff that isn't at least as good a lube as BF CLP. Moreso my pistol (P226 Elite ST) than my AR.

A reasonable position. I think if you'd said that from the get go, people wouldn't think you have some weird vendetta.

WS6
12-15-11, 01:13
A reasonable position. I think if you'd said that from the get go, people wouldn't think you have some weird vendetta.

People PRESUMED I had a weird vendetta. I do not. I just want to know what it is. I listed things I found as inconsistent and indicative of misrepresentation of the product, in my opinion, and sought clarification. Some of which, I got. I listed these as such simply to show that claims are not good enough when half of them appear to be weasel-worded or down-right false right from the get-go. (I have not "crystalized" an ant with it, it did nothing to get rid of surface-rust on a knife blade I had, it performed horribly in my own corrosion-protection test when compared to any other lube I had on hand besides Astroglide, etc. etc. etc.)

Emotion is still the primary sales-pitch for the product, and I'm still not on board.

I had hoped this thread would bring some facts to light, and better inform us all. It looks like that might be exactly what is going to occur.

Iraqgunz
12-15-11, 03:01
Personally I find that experience trumps that of people in white coats playing with mice. The fact that it lubricates and allows me to clean my weapon with very little effort and the fact that it doesn't smell like someones ass and the fact that it is biodegradable are all pluses in my book.

I still don't get your obsession with it. If you don't like it, then simply keep on using your Breakfree and be happy. I don't get it.


I suppose my main compunction remains that there IS test data out there re: Falex, 4-ball, etc., and that Mr. Lasky has chosen not to share it.

There could be any number of reasons for that, and I am not going to hypothesize. However, I will continue to keep my ear to the ground and see what comes of it.

Interesting thread so far. Very heavy on emotion/experience. Light to the point of absence on fact.

WS6
12-15-11, 03:12
Personally I find that experience trumps that of people in white coats playing with mice. The fact that it lubricates and allows me to clean my weapon with very little effort and the fact that it doesn't smell like someones ass and the fact that it is biodegradable are all pluses in my book.

I still don't get your obsession with it. If you don't like it, then simply keep on using your Breakfree and be happy. I don't get it.

I never said I disliked it. I just want to know more about it. Lots of people like it, I like what I know about it, but there have been people reporting more wear than normal, and I would like to know that it is a good wear preventative as well as lubricant.

I don't think that is too much to ask of a product, or to know about a product.

When claims are made, they should be backed up. So far, not very many of FL's claims/their dealer's claims have held up in my experience with the product. I want to know if wear prevention is something that holds up, or not.

They won't tell us what's in it.
They won't tell us how it does in testing except to fabricate claims (dealers who claimed scar measurement of "0.0") or to hedge around the results (Mr. Lasky).

What they WILL! do is send out a ton of free product, create a facebook page that is very emotional and contains a lot of feel-good, and have dealers running all over the internet claiming it soothes burns and sucks the moisture out of ants and melts rust away.

I would like something substantial.

Iraqgunz
12-15-11, 03:16
Rock on dude.


I never said I disliked it. I just want to know more about it. Lots of people like it, I like what I know about it, but there have been people reporting more wear than normal, and I would like to know that it is a good wear preventative as well as lubricant.

I don't think that is too much to ask of a product, or to know about a product.

When claims are made, they should be backed up. So far, not very many of FL's claims/their dealer's claims have held up in my experience with the product. I want to know if wear prevention is something that holds up, or not.

They won't tell us what's in it.
They won't tell us how it does in testing except to fabricate claims (dealers who claimed scar measurement of "0.0") or to hedge around the results (Mr. Lasky).

What they WILL! do is send out a ton of free product, create a facebook page that is very emotional and contains a lot of feel-good, and have dealers running all over the internet claiming it soothes burns and sucks the moisture out of ants and melts rust away.

I would like something substantial.

Littlelebowski
12-15-11, 06:57
Interesting thread so far. Very heavy on emotion/experience. Light to the point of absence on fact.

That's damned near an insult given the first hand data from high round count training classes in this thread. You should take the time to differentiate from marketers and firsthand reports from users in the field.

I use it because it has worked superbly for me in training. I receive no free products and no money from the manufacturer.

You are obsessing at this point.

g5m
12-15-11, 07:21
Incidentally, in a recent conversation with Cpt. Lasky he said that the simplest way to apply the product was to take the firearm out and shoot it, get it hot from that, and apply the lube. A lot simpler than trying to heat it up in some other way.
Except maybe leaving it in a closed car in the sun in Arizona in the summer.

WS6
12-15-11, 07:25
That's damned near an insult given the first hand data from high round count training classes in this thread. You should take the time to differentiate from marketers and firsthand reports from users in the field.

I use it because it has worked superbly for me in training. I receive no free products and no money from the manufacturer.

You are obsessing at this point.

I want to know how well it protects against wear before using it on my AR, and my stainless SIG.

I'm very glad that your experience has been positive. I am very glad others have a lot of good to say about it as well. However, all the praise in the world is not going to find me lubing a tightly fitted stainless P226 or my Noveske AR with it until I know how well it is protecting against wear and galling.

I'm obsessing about it no-less than everyone else whines about the almighty TDP and pays through the nose for Colt LPK's and the like.

There is a reason there is a mil-spec (or so many here seem to think), and it's not based on emotion or several positive experiences.

Lubricants have a mil-spec, too. Wear is part of that. Why bother with pinned gas-blocks and other things if you are going to use a lubricant that can't even meet minimum spec?

We don't know what kind of lubricant Froglube is. Slick and long-lasting don't say a whole lot about it regarding that, either.

All I would like is some data on how well it prevents wear before I use it on my weapons. Obsessive to wonder about that? Maybe. Certainly no moreso than any of the other things on this site regarding meeting minimum specification for any number of things.

PS.

I was digging around, as I remember a certain someone wanting MSDS info, "verification" of nanotechnology claims, bandying about that a real tribologist wasn't the inventor, etc., and all sorts of other things in another thread about a "new" lubricant. Then you grew disgusted by the "inventor's" behavior in a Youtube video and refused to even try the stuff. Check your attitude out toward Slipstream:

I'd have to see verification before believing any "nano" claims.
I want verification of Froglube's anti-wear claims...

George Fennell. WeaponShield. George is an actual tribologist.
Mr. Lasky isn't an actual tribologist...

http://weaponshield.com/technical.htm

http://weaponshield.com/msds.htm
Can't find that for Froglube...

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=84425&highlight=Slipstream

Now you want to call me picky because I ask for the same stuff.
Kettle, meet Pot.

orionz06
12-15-11, 07:35
What does the lube in an AR really need to do? It needs to not burn off more than anything. After spitting 6,000 rounds through one of my guns with a new lube that you can't buy yet I am more sure than ever that most of the numbers are meaningless in this particular application.

I have 4-ball wear test info and will get more but after seeing good and bad lubes, based on that test, perform well in this application I really don't care.

If you wanna pick nits I am sure you will no matter what. It sounds like you will be pissed off and miserable no matter how the lube really works out so why not spare everyone else the trouble?

If I can get some before the weekend I will run it in one of my Noveske AR's and it will be ****ing awesome.





Why is everyone so concerned over minutia lately? If you can't help it pick something that matters.

markm
12-15-11, 07:40
Why is everyone so concerned over minutia lately?


Well.... it's either this... or which New M4 stock looks best with their FDE handguards.

When I first joined this site a few years back.... I was like.... What is this site's obsession with LUBE??

WS6
12-15-11, 07:46
What does the lube in an AR really need to do? It needs to not burn off more than anything. After spitting 6,000 rounds through one of my guns with a new lube that you can't buy yet I am more sure than ever that most of the numbers are meaningless in this particular application.

I have 4-ball wear test info and will get more but after seeing good and bad lubes, based on that test, perform well in this application I really don't care.

If you wanna pick nits I am sure you will no matter what. It sounds like you will be pissed off and miserable no matter how the lube really works out so why not spare everyone else the trouble?

If I can get some before the weekend I will run it in one of my Noveske AR's and it will be ****ing awesome.





Why is everyone so concerned over minutia lately? If you can't help it pick something that matters.

Show me some 4-ball wear data and if it meets mil-spec I will gladly use it on my AR. I'd love a non-toxic lube, especially suppressed.

Mainly, I am concerned with the 4-ball test as relates to my SIG and other items where wear is a bigger concern.

ETA: Since when did "pissed off and miserable" come into play when someone asks for data? Did I accidentally log onto TOS by mistake?

Froglube didn't shit on my rug, or wreck my car, or anything else. I just want some data on it beyond hearsay is all.

WS6
12-15-11, 07:52
Well.... it's either this... or which New M4 stock looks best with their FDE handguards.

When I first joined this site a few years back.... I was like.... What is this site's obsession with LUBE??

+1

I researched the rifle for months, asked a ton of info from Noveske and ToddK, and previously did the same on my P226 of Bruce Gray and company before sending it to them. Everything else is the way I want it, why not be selective on what I put on it? It would be like a car guy saying "Hell, just buy some oil, I don't care" for his pride and joy. Not gonna happen, no matter how many stories you have about an uncle/neighbor/friend doing so, lol.

Littlelebowski
12-15-11, 07:54
Real world experience apparently means ****all in this thread over laboratory testing. Nowhere did I claim Lansky is a tribologist.

Out of curiousity WS6, which laboratory test is most relevant to your apparently extremely strenuous (more so than mine or Iraqgunz) weapons use?

You want to have some real fun with gun lube claims, check out Slipstream.

WS6
12-15-11, 08:02
Real world experience apparently means ****all in this thread over laboratory testing. Nowhere did I claim Lansky is a tribologist.

Out of curiousity WS6, which laboratory test is most relevant to your apparently extremely strenuous (more so than mine or Iraqgunz) weapons use?

You want to have some real fun with gun lube claims, check out Slipstream.

Did they claim that it kills insects on contact, heals burns, and melts rust?
Slipstream has some real-world fans, too for that matter.

Most relevant? I have told you, I want to know about the wear, which would be 4-ball, and falex load testing would be nice, too.

tb-av
12-15-11, 08:02
I want verification of Froglube's anti-wear claims...

Who would you trust to give you that data accurately?

WS6
12-15-11, 08:02
Who would you trust to give you that data accurately?

Any 3rd party lab.

Littlelebowski
12-15-11, 08:10
I'm done with your pedantic shit, WS6. I'll bet money you won't send a sample to a lab for testing and also that I won't see an AAR from you mentioning any kind of lube in the next year.

You remind of the people that whine incessantly about Glock's marketing. Marketers and real world engineers reside in two very different camps but you're so goddamned bothered over some Facebook claims that you can't see your hand in front of your face.

Facebook is for children.

Unsubscribed.

WS6
12-15-11, 08:13
I'm done with your pedantic shit, WS6. I'll bet money you won't send a sample to a lab for testing and also that I won't see an AAR from you mentioning any kind of lube in the next year.

You remind of the people that whine incessantly about Glock's marketing. Marketers and real world engineers reside in two very different camps but you're so goddamned bothered over some Facebook claims that you can't see your hand in front of your face.

Facebook is for children.

Unsubscribed.
Yes, I'm sorry for acting like a child, my sincerest apologies. :rolleyes:

FWIW, those claims were made my FL's largest vendors on various forums, not facebook.

tb-av
12-15-11, 08:13
Have you contacted any labs to do the test?

WS6
12-15-11, 08:16
Have you contacted any labs to do the test?

A member here knows someone who can do said test. I checked out Falex, but have not called them. They run about 50 tests and average the results, so I am not sure on cost. I imagine it would buy me a lifetime supply of CLP, though.

davidjinks
12-15-11, 08:32
WS6,

So pretty much anything anyone has to say here to you, you're going to pretty much dismiss it.

If real world, no matter how subjective it is, experience isn't going to help you...why not just ask for the thread to be closed.

You keep asking the same questions, you're getting the same answers, on top of it all, you dismiss what people who are using it are saying.

This thread started out with you having some sort of desire to debunk or claim some sort of scam with FL. Now all you're doing is being childish and repetitive with your questions and answers.

Why not just buy some of the lube, find an independent tester, have them test it and call it a damn day.

tb-av
12-15-11, 08:36
Take a look at the products this company makes. They publish results.

Now read the first sentence on their test page.

http://www.npi-lube.com/wearlife.htm

If you don't want to spend the money to be provided with the data you wish to depend on then that's not a FL issue.

Field use is the ultimate test. That's just the way life is.

Paladin801
12-15-11, 08:47
I'm not going to try and break any forum rules, but this is my opinion. Out of all posters on FrogLube, there are two who want to either use crisco or have some scientific study done on FL by some idiot who never has or will fire any weapons. I say WTF happened to common sense. Too many people here , including myself have used FL for a long time. It hasn't blown any of our weapons up or caused any more than normal wear. I have run the shit out of it. The only experts I need to hear from are the other Brothers who have found that the lube works as advertised as I have. I don't need Mr. Wizard or any scientific study to tell me if I like it and it works for me. You can't teach or learn common sense and a couple here definitely are lacking. Go out and shoot the crap out of it like we have and then give your "study" results. If not, STFU. Reminds me of the type, you look down and find a dollar bill. Next statement from this type is damn, why couldn't it have been a five. You say it's a beautiful day and they say and they disagree and say it's an ugly day. One has been asked to stop posting, the other posted that he would stop. Mr. Wizard has not been truthful. I smell a Troll. That is all !

WS6
12-15-11, 08:56
A lot of people like it. A lot of experienced people who have been there, done that.

A lot of the same kind of people like LeMas/RBCD ammunition as well, for much the same reason--they have seen what it does in the real world, outside the lab.

I am not equating Froglube to LeMas, but I am saying that "It works in the real-world, so just shut up and use it" doesn't do it for me. Especially when it comes to what I term "wonder-products".

I have simply asked for data on the product. The fan-boy attitude has gotten WAY off the meter here.

Would love to join in on the Froglube love-fest, but am awaiting a bit of hard data first.

Lots of hypocrisy here. Many of you have changed what you load your weapons with just because Dr. Roberts tells you that round X performs better than round Y in his lab. Now you want to condemn the lab. I suppose people do what is convenient, and belittling those who do not go along is always in vogue.

I did start this thread because I viewed the marketing as a scam. I then took it upon myself to dig deeper, posted my findings, and revised my opinion.

Once I have (if I do attain) data on the product, I will post that, too, and revise my opinion and incorporate it into my weapon maintenance if warranted.

There is nothing "hateful" or "miserable" about the process in the least, aside from dealing with all the emotional fanatics during the interim.

WS6
12-15-11, 09:00
I'm not going to try and break any forum rules, but this is my opinion. Out of all posters on FrogLube, there are two who want to either use crisco or have some scientific study done on FL by some idiot who never has or will fire any weapons. I say WTF happened to common sense. Too many people here , including myself have used FL for a long time. It hasn't blown any of our weapons up or caused any more than normal wear. I have run the shit out of it. The only experts I need to hear from are the other Brothers who have found that the lube works as advertised as I have. I don't need Mr. Wizard or any scientific study to tell me if I like it and it works for me. You can't teach or learn common sense and a couple here definitely are lacking. Go out and shoot the crap out of it like we have and then give your "study" results. If not, STFU. Reminds me of the type, you look down and find a dollar bill. Next statement from this type is damn, why couldn't it have been a five. You say it's a beautiful day and they say and they disagree and say it's an ugly day. One has been asked to stop posting, the other posted that he would stop. Mr. Wizard has not been truthful. I smell a Troll. That is all !

The fly in the ointment are the pictures of guns with excessive wear, and the claims of such that you will find if you look around.
The OP removed the pictures, but read the thread: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xd-gunsmithing-maintenance/184668-xdm-9mm-4-5-1100-rounds-froglube.html

I have found also issues of wear with SIG's and a 1911 on other forums.

Were it not for the conflict, I would just go along with the crowd, but it seems a few people HAVE had some issues with more than average wear.

So now we have 2 groups of "Tried it, BTDT" people and 2 different results.

THAT is why I would like to see some data.

orionz06
12-15-11, 09:00
There are things tested in a lab and there are things tested in the operational environment. Shooting people, aside from obvious logistics issues, does not provide repeatable and measurable results. Lab tests do.

For lube, the end result is a working gun that is no more difficult to clean and no obvious damage. Lab results would be great but they don't tell the whole story here. If we wanted to run Frog Lube in an F1 car different story, test data is far more important there.

WS6
12-15-11, 09:07
There are things tested in a lab and there are things tested in the operational environment. Shooting people, aside from obvious logistics issues, does not provide repeatable and measurable results. Lab tests do.

For lube, the end result is a working gun that is no more difficult to clean and no obvious damage. Lab results would be great but they don't tell the whole story here. If we wanted to run Frog Lube in an F1 car different story, test data is far more important there.

I agree, and pictures of excessive wear have emerged when used in the dynamic environment you describe. Hence my desire to dig a little deeper.

orionz06
12-15-11, 09:19
I agree, and pictures of excessive wear have emerged when used in the dynamic environment you describe. Hence my desire to dig a little deeper.

Excessive wear?

WS6
12-15-11, 09:24
Excessive wear?

I suppose the term is VERY subjective.

I will clarify. What I mean by excessive, is that weapons lubed with it have shown more wear than weapons lubed with other common firearm lubricants, and weapons lubed with it that had "worn-in" and stopped wearing visibly, have began to wear again once Froglube has been applied, and stopped this new wear as soon as the former lube was switched back to.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/firearm-cleaning-maintenance/122689-froglube-3.html#post2084893

See also my link about the XD. Unfortunately, OP took down the pictures for some reason. However, the comments can still be read regarding other member's surprise at the wear.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xd-gunsmithing-maintenance/184668-xdm-9mm-4-5-1100-rounds-froglube.html

Now, since all we have to go on is "Well my gun..." these claims are just as valid as and just as meaningful as the "It works for me!" claims. That means that if we are to be non-biased, we need to treat them as fact, just like the other claims have been treated.

Hence my desire for more than a story. This story has 2 versions.

orionz06
12-15-11, 09:29
It is appearance only, I suspect. Not sure how scientific it is.

WS6
12-15-11, 09:35
It is appearance only, I suspect. Not sure how scientific it is.

Visible wear starting again on a piece of machinery that had previously stabalized regarding wear is significant. The XD? I'm not so concerned with. The 1911 is rather interesting to read about, as is the P220.

Wear is indeed important regarding the AR-15 platform in some areas, namely the cam-pin area, which is placed under a lot of stress and is critical for operation of the platform.

I am not sure how critical the insides of the upper are, regarding surfaces the BCG interacts with.

Anyway, now we have two sides of the story, both of which have equal claim to being "facts".

Without any other data, I'll stick with CLP. It is a known. Once Froglube is a known, I will happily switch over if it is good to go based on the data.

I think people believe skeptics to be against something. No, not in this case. I really like the idea of froglube, and its physical properties. I just would like something more quantitative than qualitative before I switch over to it. It's sitting on my shelf and a few minutes will see it applied once I have something to compel me to do so.

orionz06
12-15-11, 09:49
People run guns bone dry for years, or relatively bone dry, without issue. Not sure how using Frog Lube causes issues here. I know, or know people who know, people who like Frog Lube. I do not know the guy you linked to, who removed his pics (strange?).

I will get the stuff tested (if I can get it tested for free) and use it to establish my opinion (which will not matter to anyone).

tb-av
12-15-11, 10:01
Here ya go... call these guys. Let us know what they say the price will be.

they need a 200ml sample.

http://www.polarislabs.com/test-explanations/4-ball-wear.php

thei3ug
12-15-11, 10:23
Wear testing should be near 100 per sample, per test.
Corrosion testing will be much more expensive. several hundred per sample, per test. You'll also have to decide which corrosion tests are actually relevant.

I have a few friends who work in areas where they might be able to slip this in, but I doubt it, and I'm tapped. To do a one on one product comparison properly I figure the cost would be well around 2 grand.

For what it's worth, I don't understand the disdain for the smell of hydrocarbons. I was an industrial painter through high school and college, and whatever brain cells I have left resonate with nostalgia every time I clean a firearm.

5pins
12-15-11, 10:33
This is just a wild ass guess but maybe FL is not releasing any test data because they are looking at getting a mil contract in the future. I know here at Sill the whole hazmat environmentally friendly stuff is taken very seriously. I would not be a bit surprised to find out that big army is looking for something that is safe for the environment for solders to clean their weapons with.

If that’s the case, and I’m not saying it is, maybe FL is not in too big of a hurry to let potential competitors know the details of their test. I could be way off base but I think the days of CLP, LSA and other weapons cleaning and lubrication products now in use are short.

markm
12-15-11, 10:44
I would not be a bit surprised to find out that big army is looking for something that is safe for the environment for solders to clean their weapons with.

No kidding. :rolleyes:

militarymoron
12-15-11, 10:46
i'm closing this thread for now. not because i'm a fanboy of FL - but because everyone has stated their position and arguing back and forth won't change any minds.
we can re-open it if someone gets any new data/information to share (from the manufacturer or an independent testing lab) - just PM me or another mod when you do.