View Full Version : Another Upper with No Forward Assist
saddlerocker
12-06-11, 19:58
Rainier Arms apparently just got their first batch.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2940
I really like the no FA uppers, and was planning on a Vltor for another build since they were the only ones I knew about, but the price was hard to justify.
Just public service announcement....
(I have no affiliation with Rainier)
St.Michael
12-06-11, 20:02
That's fugly. Hhahaha. I like the old style! Maybe this will be the new trend though?
saddlerocker
12-06-11, 20:27
You may be right, Id like to see one on a complete rifle.
I still like the Vltors look better, but if your trying to save weight the Vltor is actually thicker and I think heavier then standard uppers
I think I might actually like a naked upper with no deflector either, or a very small deflector
http://i44.tinypic.com/29askl0.jpg
I actually like the look of them without the FA. I guess it's just me.
whats the reasoning or benefit of not having a forward assist? i can count a few time where that thing has saved my butt
whats the reasoning or benefit of not having a forward assist? i can count a few time where that thing has saved my butt
I am curious as to when this would be.
If a round failed to seat it us generally for one of two reasons.
1: You rode the CH forward and didn't let it seat right in which case the FA may or may not help and you are better off clearing it and starting over.
2: There is something blocking the round in which case the FA is just going to make a bad problem worse.
deadlyfire
12-06-11, 21:21
whats the reasoning or benefit of not having a forward assist? i can count a few time where that thing has saved my butt
I was trained to use the FA in the infantry so I'm not sure why there's a movement away from it either. I keep meaning to look it up...
The upper looks nice either way!
I am curious as to when this would be.
If a round failed to seat it us generally for one of two reasons.
1: You rode the CH forward and didn't let it seat right in which case the FA may or may not help and you are better off clearing it and starting over.
2: There is something blocking the round in which case the FA is just going to make a bad problem worse.
During my time in the military and not always having the cleanest environment, due to the weapon not being clean i have had to use it a handful of times. I gess really why do you not want it there?
Good discussion on the merits of a F/A can be found here:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92951
During my time in the military and not always having the cleanest environment, due to the weapon not being clean i have had to use it a handful of times. I gess really why do you not want it there?
Necessary to close the action after you hit the bolt release and it bound, or necessary to complete SPORTS?
Nightvisionary
12-07-11, 04:32
I was trained to use the FA in the infantry so I'm not sure why there's a movement away from it either. I keep meaning to look it up...
The upper looks nice either way!
Same here. The forward assist was designed into the system resulting from hard lessons learned during the Vietnam war.
The forward assist is also handy for silently chambering a round while hunting. Not so much for sneaking up on the ever-elusive paper target. :D
I'm not getting this trend either, it's nice to have the forward assist just in case. Is it really a weight issue or perhaps slightly less costly on parts not having it on there.
Once the economies of scale are worked out it should be about $15 cheaper and 2-3 ounces lighter. That's not insignificant. I've not seen a use for the FA except in guns that are both dry and dirty.
was planning on a Vltor for another build since they were the only ones I knew about, but the price was hard to justify.
Not really. Better heat treatment.... Stronger upper (less receiver flex), Real Forging.. not a Billet crap.
I've been known to curse ARs, Glocks, and even AKs, but I've never, ever had to use a forward assist.
Its cool to see these coming out. I have Leas Baer uppers with no forward assist. It was a big deal to try to get a hold of them with the M4 feed ramps.
Its nice to know for future builds I can now just get them from Rainier.
I have never needed the forward assist, and like the weight saving and sleekness of the slick side. It also works great with a charging handle that operates from the right side as well.
viperashes
12-07-11, 09:27
I read here on M4C a while back, and somewhere else that I can't recall that the reason for the deletion of the forward assist is that some people feel as if it is no longer necessary, and that they feel that it's just more parts that could potentially break and make the weapon malfunction.
Now, granted, if the pawl of a forward assist did break off, it may cause some serious ass pain on the range, or worse in an operational environment, but how many of us here have actually had forward assists break? I've personally never seen one.
Thanks to the OP for this post. It's good to know i can source something else than have to mess w/ the Baer.
but how many of us here have actually had forward assists break? I've personally never seen one.
I've read of a reported case where the roll pin failed and jammed up the gun.
Dumping the FA based on this is like not leaving your house every day for fear of a meteor landing on your head. :rolleyes:
I don't care for it in the pic, but I too would like to see it on a complete rifle.
Tim McBride
12-07-11, 11:37
To each their own.
I've never needed to use the FA, but I see no reason to eliminate it. The weight savings is negligible.
I said it in the other thread but I'll say it again here.
Drop your magazine in snow or accidentally drop the rifle when the bolt is locked to the rear during a reload (easy to do in ice) and see if a forward assist is necessary.
It is.
Ask me how I know.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/snow38.jpg
Like most things - you don't need it until you need it.
i can count a few time where that thing has saved my butt
Your life was saved multiple times by you having a forward assist when you used it in combat?
Removing the FA is a fashion trend and/or a weight weenie thing. Might as well remove the seat belts from your car. After all, how often do you crash?
viperashes
12-08-11, 00:48
I've read of a reported case where the roll pin failed and jammed up the gun.
Dumping the FA based on this is like not leaving your house every day for fear of a meteor landing on your head. :rolleyes:
That's a weapon maintenance issue and someone not properly inspecting their weapon. Granted, I don't look at every pin, roll pin, spring and screw every time I do weapons maintenance, but doing a thorough check every once in a while should be in anyone's maintenance schedule and would eliminate most of the possibility of this happening. I won't say all, because anything can happen, and when talking about a machine, the only absolute is that nothing is absolute.
Removing the FA is a fashion trend and/or a weight weenie thing. Might as well remove the seat belts from your car. After all, how often do you crash?
I like this analogy.
I've read of a reported case where the roll pin failed and jammed up the gun.
Dumping the FA based on this is like not leaving your house every day for fear of a meteor landing on your head. :rolleyes:
Why do you think I have so much time to spend on the internet. Space rocks are scary!
You almost have to have a FA with a non-reciprocating charging handle. I don't like them and I would say to never use it, if your gun can't get it in by the bolt group that is a check on its own. I understand the slow bolt stall and just needing a little umph to chamber and lock and in that situation it seems like the best thing ever,and in the end that is the most likely best case scenario given the wide range of skills people have. I still like the reciprocator charging handles in theory because it also gives you a visual in your periphery of the gun status, if it jams you can tell before checking a port door. On the other hand, working in tight situations with that beat stick coming out the gun, back and forth very quickly, could be a learning experience.
So I guess I like the FA, I have always had a rule to never shoot reloads, and to never use the FA. I had to violate both at a machine gun shoot at Knob Creek at the same time. I was having to wack the FA so hard that my palm was starting to not be able to take it. I was just so pissed that I kept going but on the last one that took me about 2 or 3 major wacks I just gave up. The upper I was using apparently was brand new with a tight chamber as well. So this was a bad situation that I should have just stopped.
The FA isn't missed on the FAL with it's non-reciprocating charging handle.
I've used a variety of self loading rifles with reciprocating charging handles for years (never in combat though) without getting beaten by them
To those who've needed their forward assist for anything other than a press check, could you describe how it was used and whether it solved the problem?
-B
How much more does this weigh than those 9mm FA-less uppers that you can get adco to drill?
viperashes
12-09-11, 04:20
To those who've needed their forward assist for anything other than a press check, could you describe how it was used and whether it solved the problem?
-B
A dirty weapon in a dry desert climate. Sand, dust, and carbon build up clogging the shit out of the weapon. Lube (shiity .mil CLP/LSA) just turned the mixture into cement mud. Ammunition wouldn't properly seat on every round. Every few rounds the weapon would malfunction, after a few times racking the round out that wouldn't seat, I started smashing on the FA to get the gun up. One hard slap on the FA would get the round to seat enough for the weapon to fire. No FTEs or FTFs, just out of battery malfunctions. Once I got the chance, I cleaned the ever loving shit out of my weapon and went back to not having to use the FA at all.
In my opinion, from my experience, the FA is there mostly for when it's either faster to slap an out of battery round into the chamber than rack it out and try to rechamber a new round, or when your gun is just so gummed up that regardless of anything else you do, you're going to get out of battery malfunctions. Most civilian shooters aren't ever going to let their weapons get that bad, but it's there as a tool. If you know the history behind the FA and why the weapon was changed to include it, you know that it was included as a military asset, obviously. That's where most of it's practical use lies for what it was designed for.
My rifle is a tool, including my own personal rifle, not just my issued M4 or M16, I inspect my ammunition before I load it into magazines for dents, dings, and anything else unusual, so I have no qualms about slapping the piss out of the FA to get a round to seat if I need to. I'm not inherently worried about getting a casing stuck in the chamber. If it happens it happens, but, as many have probably seen me say, inspect your weapon, and all of it's components, including your ammunition, and you should be able to keep those types of issues to a minimum.
How much more does this weigh than those 9mm FA-less uppers that you can get adco to drill?
Most uppers I've weighed are approximately 8.4 oz with FWD assist and the ejection port cover/hardware. One Mega forged upper I had differed from the others at 8.1 oz.
A 9mm upper is 7.7 oz with the ejection port cover or 6.9 oz stripped. Les Bear's upper without the FWD assist is the same, so I assume Rainier's is going to be similar. Thus, about 0.7 oz savings from a standard, forged upper. Not a lot and certainly not a reason to do so by itself unless you're looking to save every gram possible for, say, an ultra lightweight hunting AR.
FWIW, the VLTOR MUR-1S is 8.4 oz, and the MUR-1A is ~ 10 oz.
roymorrison
12-09-11, 18:31
A gym membership is a lot cheaper than a lightweight upper.
Taking off the FA for weight savings is a terrible idea. I've had to use the FA while deployed on a few occasions due to bad weather, and while it didn't exactly save my life, it did more for me than having an upper receiver that was .04 ounces lighter would have done.
A gym membership is a lot cheaper than a lightweight upper.
Taking off the FA for weight savings is a terrible idea. I've had to use the FA while deployed on a few occasions due to bad weather, and while it didn't exactly save my life, it did more for me than having an upper receiver that was .04 ounces lighter would have done.
I certainly agree if we're referring to fighting/defense rifles. However, in the pursuit of building ultra lightweight hunting ARs, I've allowed for some compromises such as deleting the forward assist on a few assemblies. For example a 6 lb 1.4 oz Varmint gun with a 20" BBL (http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1135421&postcount=1). The worst thing that can happen in this case is that I miss the Prairie Dog.
BTW 0.7 oz, not 0.04. :)
A gym membership is a lot cheaper than a lightweight upper.
Not this crap again.
roymorrison
12-10-11, 08:45
Not this crap again.
Arguing that making your gun less functional for the sake of a bit of weight savings is taboo around here? Sorry JChops, I'll keep the common sense to a minimum in future posts.
If guys want to buy it, then great, but I want a forward assist.
Anyone build on one of these yet?
I like the FA even though it really serves no purpose. I just like having it there. Is it logical? Maybe not so I guess it is just preference.
Anyone build on one of these yet?
I have one on the way for a light weight coyote gun. It's going to have an AP Customs carbon fiber handguard and an Ace skeleton stock on a PSA lower. Also using a PSA hammer forged 16" barrel.
I am curious as to when this would be.
If a round failed to seat it us generally for one of two reasons.
1: You rode the CH forward and didn't let it seat right in which case the FA may or may not help and you are better off clearing it and starting over.
2: There is something blocking the round in which case the FA is just going to make a bad problem worse.
Uh, sand in the action. The FA will fix the problem right away, BTDT.
As a left handed shooter, I use an ambi charging handle so I can charge the rifle without having to reach over the gun or take it down from my shoulder. I really like the idea of not having the FA in my way. I've toyed with the idea of the Vltor but decided it is too expensive. I'm going to give this Ranier unit a lot of thought.
blacktail 8541
01-01-12, 13:33
Anyone build on one of these yet?
I used one for a dedicated .22 rim fire build and will be useing one for a varmit build. I like the upper and have no use for it in these builds.
I am a lefty also, and while the forward assist can be annoying, I would rather have it on a fighting gun than not.
buckshot1220
01-01-12, 18:18
On a comp or hunting gun, have at it. On a patrol or defense weapon, I just can't see it. You won't know you need it, until you do...
This charging handle could be used as a forward assist, though seems like a lot of debris would be allowed in here:
www.largrizzly.com
nineteenkilo
01-01-12, 23:22
Takes the 'T' right out of SPORTS. I can't dig it in a ftf situation. Kinda cool looking though.
SPORTS is ate the fuck up.
nineteenkilo
01-02-12, 00:17
SPORTS is ate the fuck up.
Awww come on. You don't like thinking of acronyms on a two-way range when your shit's jammed?;)
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