View Full Version : Anyone ever taken a class with a crappy rifle?
I have this weird thing I do with stuff: First, I like to have the real deal, top of the line, best gear. Then, I like to go back and repeat the action with the cheapest of the cheap. For instance, I like to bass fish. I have several hundred dollars tied up in custom rods and nice reels. I enjoy catching fish with them, but for whatever reason, this Summer I broke out the old, cheap Zebco 33 combo and used a $0.10 plastic worm instead of a $25 swimbait. You know what? I caught my largest bass ever!
So comes my question/thought. Last March I took a Vickers class with my tricked out, top of the line Daniel Defense rifle. Now I want to go take a class with a beater, iron-sighted carbine. DPMS, RRA, STAG, Bushmaster, Smith MP Sport. Something along those lines. I would have my DD in the truck in case the cheap one failed, but I'm just curious how the cheapies would fare in a class. Anyone ever done a class with a cheapie?
My friend who went with me to Vickers class used a RR; it was fine. I would put them in the middle grade though since ive seen much worse. I dont think you will get a true reliability result from one class though...hell, I have had an instructor that used a Doublestar without an issue.
I have this weird thing I do with stuff: First, I like to have the real deal, top of the line, best gear. Then, I like to go back and repeat the action with the cheapest of the cheap. For instance, I like to bass fish. I have several hundred dollars tied up in custom rods and nice reels. I enjoy catching fish with them, but for whatever reason, this Summer I broke out the old, cheap Zebco 33 combo and used a $0.10 plastic worm instead of a $25 swimbait. You know what? I caught my largest bass ever!
So comes my question/thought. Last March I took a Vickers class with my tricked out, top of the line Daniel Defense rifle. Now I want to go take a class with a beater, iron-sighted carbine. DPMS, RRA, STAG, Bushmaster, Smith MP Sport. Something along those lines. I would have my DD in the truck in case the cheap one failed, but I'm just curious how the cheapies would fare in a class. Anyone ever done a class with a cheapie?
Do it right and get one of the plastic plum crazy lowers!
friendlyfireisnt
01-10-12, 16:28
Several trainers have opined in various forums regarding people using cheap firearms during training.
Seems most (if not all) felt that it not only robbed the trainee of a positive learning experience, but also robbed the rest of the class since time was wasted with broken, POS equipment.
Why slow down the others who are also paying good money?
Do it. Take pics. Just know that you'll be "that guy".
Several trainers have opined in various forums regarding people using cheap firearms during training.
Seems most (if not all) felt that it not only robbed the trainee of a positive learning experience, but also robbed the rest of the class since time was wasted with broken, POS equipment.
Why slow down the others who are also paying good money?
I wouldn't. I would know the rifle was crap, so instead of waisting the instructor's time trying help me, I'd just put it down and go grab my DD and proceed. The fact that the cheapie failed would satisfy my curiosity. If it didn't fail, ok. I would let the instructor know on the front end so that he wouldn't stop the training on my part.
My buddy and I did a Tricon course this past October. 2000+ rounds in three days. His DPMS rifle ran fine, no problems.
I took a carbine class in 2008 with my junkmaster xm15 I got in 05 before I knew better. I had nothing but extraction issues with it using xm193. It was extremely frustrating and embarrassing. I got through the course but not without having to use one of their carbines to complete it due to the level of stoppages I was experiencing. It was humbling and embarrassing to have that happen. I properly lube and maintain it so it really had me po'ed. I never really put it through the paces like I did that weekend and it never failed as a recreational shooter or maybe I just didn't notice it or pay it any mind because I was plinking with it.
I found this site late 2009 and began lurking, reading, and understanding my weapon better. I already owned the weapon so in lieu of spending a lot of money on a new one during the " buying rush"I decided to follow the advice here and upgrade it. I have since replaced the front sight and buffer+spring, torqued and staked the castle nut, found a local smith who had one of ned's chamber reamers and took some material off for me, and I put a BCM full auto BCG in it and now exclusively use slip 2000. I ran a course in 2010 with it and it worked flawlessly through the 900 rounds I brought with me when before I couldn't get through 200 without failures.
When Colt's prices came down I pulled the trigger. The junkmaster is now my truck/plinking gun. I recently made the same purchases to fix my BinLaws junkmaster ar and I am sure he will be happy as well. I also have a RRA 20"upper I got in trade for ammo that needed the same upgrades. Frustrating to be sure but I learned a lot and will not longer make the same mistakes. I can totally understand how someone with a weapon that malfunctions consistently can be a detriment to a class and I don't ever want to be that guy again.
it's worth a try. I take classes with all my old 10 rd pistol mags just to get more practice at emergency and administrative reloading.
what kind of class are you looking for? there will be a few one day classes coming up close by in the spring. PM me and I'll pass on the info...
My friend who went with me to Vickers class used a RR; it was fine. I would put them in the middle grade though since ive seen much worse. I dont think you will get a true reliability result from one class though...hell, I have had an instructor that used a Doublestar without an issue.
I have a complete Rock River Arms LAR15 that I bought back in 2006 to use as a general range rifle.
I immediately swapped out the RRA Match trigger that it came with for a standard one when I got it.
I was curious to see how it would run in a class so I took it to a
Tactical Response class in TN. Half of that class was extremely dry and dusty and the other half was rainy and muddy. I shot about 1,300-1,400 rounds of mostly Federal XM193 through it with a maybe a hundred or so rounds of Hornady 55 grain.
Besides lubing I only gave it a half assed cleaning/wipe down midway through the class just to add some extra stress on the gun.
I had one malfunction when some piece of something, not sure what it was got stuck up in the charging handle making it VERY difficult to pull the charging handle. After basically yanking that thing like I was trying to start lawnmower a couple times I got it cleared out. After that the gun ran fine for the rest of the class. During a later inspection there was no damage to the parts.
In fact that is the only issue I have had ever with that gun including all the shooting I have done with it outside of classes.
I later took it through a small 1 day course where I only put maybe 500-600 rounds through it. Not much, but no problems none the less.
So not a whole lot of hard use on it but that's my experiences so far with it.
I won't be buying another RRA gun as I have since become a BCM/DD convert.
Breadstick
01-10-12, 18:39
I did...was a Olympic Arms K3B '05. Only thing "bad" was the dang nut kept coming loose. Other than that, it ran as a gun is expected to.
I no longer have the rifle....well, I have the stripped lower and sold off all other parts to get my current build.
I got the K3B on a private sale...so I kept that lower wich has a DD lpk in it.
The closest thing I did was take a Tactical Response class in 2004 with a RRA DEA package. I shot 1000 rounds before the class and went through about 1500 rounds during the class. The rifle had a vey heavy profile barrel so was a pig but it ran fine and the Eotech didn't fail. Since then all the classes have been with my own builds and Aimpoints. Shortly after the class the trigger gave up on me.
LowandLeft
01-10-12, 20:00
Guilty as charged! I took a RRA to a MagpulDynamics class and regretted it. At the time it was the best I had, and I did have a learning experience. To the rifles credit it very well may have been ammo related. My brother and I got a "good deal" on some Turkish NATO ammo that we took to the class. It was terrible (Costa didn't think it was pushing 2000 fps, :blink:). Although the ammo was the primary issue, my brother's LWRC ate every bite while my RRA double fed constantly- five times a mag. I actually had to barrow a friends backup to finish the last day. So, that rifle is no longer in my possession. Lesson learned!
lethal dose
01-10-12, 20:04
In all honesty, it'll probably run fine if properly lubed. Not worth a real life risk, though.
Is this thread really happening? On this forum?
Really?
Citizen_soldier22
01-10-12, 20:12
One of my AR's is a Palmetto State Armory build. I have taken it to a single-day carbine course and it ran 100%. In fact, I've had no issues with the rifle since I bought it over half a year ago. I always clean it after each range session and keep it lubed. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe it wasn't an intense-enough course, maybe my experience with M16s in the Army has paid off, I don't know...
I took Pat Rogers EAG Tactical Carbine Operator I class with my self-built RRA middy complete with ARMS SIR system and and EOTech with absolute co-witness mounted out over the handguard and a 3 point sling.
As I built the rifle and had already begun reading here (I already had the rifle when I found the site) I had already ensured the gas key and castle nut were properly staked. I had witness marked the appropriate items and loc-tited what needed it.
I ran 1K+ worth of M193 and HSM 55gr fmj through it using British SA80 mags I picked up during the ban and a couple PMags I got at the class. I quickly converted the 3 point CST sling to run as a 2 point and Eric Rice from DD gave me a rotation limited rail mount sling point to eliminate the horrible sling twist I was having (co-incidentally one of the reasons I now run so much DD gear). The weight of the EOTech sucked especially out front like that. My full length TD VFG was run way too close in and my Vortex FS kicked up a crap ton of dust especially in the prone (made it difficult to see the target clearly after a couple of rounds from the 50yd line). I learned a lot about what worked and what didn't.
My gear ran fine though with ZERO malfunctions other than those intentionally induced as part of the class.
I quickly dumped most of the gear on the upper for better options and eventually sold the upper too. I still have the lower though and it has been SBR'ed and run heavily in that configuration since.
Would I buy another RRA? No. Did it work fine? Yes. Can I get better for my money? Absolutely. Is it worth it to have a better weapon? Definitely.
P.S. The setup I used in the class above is actually pictured in my Avatar. I keep it there to remind me where I started. I wish I still had the 1911, it was sweet.... :cray:
One of my AR's is a Palmetto State Armory build. I have taken it to a single-day carbine course and it ran 100%. In fact, I've had no issues with the rifle since I bought it over half a year ago. I always clean it after each range session and keep it lubed. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe it wasn't an intense-enough course, maybe my experience with M16s in the Army has paid off, I don't know...
PSA is close to me and while they may not be the best option in the market, they are certainly the best in town.
That being said though, I have really seen anything definitive to say they are of superior or inferior quality.
My father is working on building his first AR using PSA parts and for his uses (shooting slowly and static from a bench) it will no doubt last longer than he will.
Do they make a bad rifle? Not that I am aware of. I have just seen other offerings more thoroughly vetted so for the time being I choose to purchase those.
Why do you need to "take a class" to see if it will fail?
I can't understand trying to unfuck and fucked gun when I am paying for instruction, I'm there to get quality instruction not test a second rate piece of shit.
Why can't you buy a cheap rifle and shoot it at the range when not in a class to see if it will break?
People seem to think that somehow a class is more of a test of reliability than shooting at the range. I have always been harder on my guns at the range on my own than in a class.
Cameron
LowandLeft
01-10-12, 20:31
Good point on that. As for me, if I'm going to pay the price for a class I would want to maximize the lessons learned. Generally, that means taking the best rifle you can (the one you're going to use). But, in my instance I did learn how to clear a double feed like a pro!
DeltaSierra
01-10-12, 20:37
Why do you need to "take a class" to see if it will fail?
I can't understand trying to unfuck and fucked gun when I am paying for instruction, I'm there to get quality instruction not test a second rate piece of shit.
I couldn't say it better myself.
In my opinion, both from the standpoint of an instructor and a shooter, I think it is stupid to intentionally use a weapon that is known to be poor quality in a class.
If you want to test the gun, do it on your own time, where you won't be holding up the the rest of the class or the instructor when your piece-of-junk weapon fails, exactly as you should have known it would....
Why do you need to "take a class" to see if it will fail?
Great question, absolutely no doubt about it Cameron. I honestly mean that.
But as ridiculous as the OP's original post is, it may be just a tiny-tad less than that of your current sig line. With all due respect.
And really, what goes with the sig lines here these days? The next one below has a friggin misspelling, yet it's been quoted? Get back to basics because this shit is goofy.
misanthropist
01-10-12, 20:44
Stuff like that is entertaining (potentially anyway) but it's not something I would do with a serious course, for a couple of reasons:
1) you don't really learn anything. If the gun makes it through fine, so what? I would guess most people here realize that a cheap rifle, particularly if it's been gone though and lubed and staked and checked carefully, has a very good chance of running for a thousand rounds etc. So if it lives, that is not really a big surprise. If it dies, then you've confirmed something everyone here should know: a cheap gun has a higher PROBABILITY of failing under hard use. So you may make it through, and you may not. Either way, we already know it's a question of probabilities, so you learn nothing.
2) since it's not likely that you will learn anything, you'll basically be doing this for fun. Maybe it's just me, but I would feel very wrong using a Vickers or Hackathorn class as "humourous entertainment". I feel that in order to show them the respect they deserve, students have an obligation to show up as prepared as possible, equipped as appropriately as possible.
But as ridiculous as the OP's original post is, it may be just a tiny-tad less than that of your current sig line. With all due respect.
I don't think the OP's post is ridiculous, I just think he may be focusing on getting something different from a class than I would be. I test gear at the range in my own time, I pay for an instructor's time to learn.
Regarding my sig line, with all due respect, you are just pissed because I won, and you didn't. :D
Cameron
Why do you need to "take a class" to see if it will fail?
I can't understand trying to unfuck and fucked gun when I am paying for instruction, I'm there to get quality instruction not test a second rate piece of shit.
Why can't you buy a cheap rifle and shoot it at the range when not in a class to see if it will break?
People seem to think that somehow a class is more of a test of reliability than shooting at the range. I have always been harder on my guns at the range on my own than in a class.
Cameron
Excellent point.
In my example above, my intent for taking the class was not to test a known low-end rifle to failure. It was to enhance my skills with the platform, which I did. I just I was just not as well versed with the quality of the arm I intended to use at the time.
I would not advocate taking a DPMS to a class for the sole purpose of seeing if you can brake it. It would not be fair to the instructor or the rest of the class IMHO.
Regarding my sig line, with all due respect, you are just pissed because I won, and you didn't. :D
Cameron
You honestly gave me a good chuckle, and I appreciate the civil response. But regardless the sig lines are still getting ridiculous.
OP, testing only one weapon of any type will not give you a definitive overall assessment of the manufacturer's quality. Either test many or read more here.
Okay, while I think I understand the intent, this is the gun analogue of asking which slingbacks work with which dress. Plus, yet another lodestone for yet another brand-name argument. We've no shortage of those....
The focal point of class hardware recommendations is "reliable," not brand, though the brands have produced their own trends, be they good or not-so-good.
The person that should be asked anything is the class instructor/host, NOT the internet at large. It's their time/venue, and the time of the other students attending, that you want to potentially use for this purpose, not the internet's....
...and now that you've put it up in public, you've alerted any instructors that read this that you intend to risk playing reindeer games with them and their students for what can be most-kindly described as a questionable reason.
Do it, or do not. Put the results in a class AAR, of it's done.
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