View Full Version : Raven Phantom Vangaurd2 (Just seen at SHOT)
masternave
01-18-12, 16:48
How do you gentlemen (and ladies) feel about this?
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/files/2012/01/20120118-131024.jpg
[source (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/01/18/raven-concealment-intros-the-vanguard2/)]
Off the cuff, bad idea. But maybe it depends on the user and their needs.....maybe, I guess?
You'll shoot your eye out.
In theory this could work but -
A single loop design can lack stability, how will this one hold up?
Is the gun going to rotate with that small attachment, where will the muzzle be pointing?
There was recently a CCW in public bathrooms thread here, how would this holster work for that?
What about reholstering?
I'll let someone else try this first but really, how are you going to wear this with sweatpants in a nightclub? It requires that you wear a belt?!??!
You will take this off of your belt to reholster.
Its not a bad idea its just not something i would ever really want to use.
In typical Raven fashion it looks well produced. It also looks like they've moved into Injection molding some of their offerings. Very interesting.
Looks like a pretty slick AIWB holster.
Whats the price point?
Voodoo_Man
01-18-12, 17:48
Interesting for sure.
Depending on how cheap it is I may try it just for kicks.
Looks like Dale Fricke's Zack.
Whats the price point?
$40
Downsides I foresee:
Removing the holster, to re-holster
Compared to other AIWB offerings, no wedge, etc to tuck the grip into the body.
Interesting Idea, the fact it looks tuckable looks like a neat option to the smart carry type holster, maybe one for a PPS would be pretty nifty.
Seems like a niche application, slimmest possible profile, sort of safer way of Mexican carry. I thought of Dale Fricke's thing too and frankly, I think his is better.
Rattlehead
01-18-12, 18:16
I would love to try one of these out with my 340PD Airweight.
I would love to try one of these out with my 340PD Airweight.
Yeah, for a J-frame it's got the potential to be fucking awesome. (Reholster in a pocket if need be, I guess.)
For a Glock/M&P/etc, you're going to get a shit ton of herp-derpery.
StrikerFired
01-18-12, 18:30
I'll pass this along to a friend of mine, but for me, I'll stick to OWB carry...
Have the 1st vanguard and really like it the vanguard 2 looks even better.
Have the 1st vanguard and really like it the vanguard 2 looks even better.
Same. I'll try anything once.
You'll shoot your eye out.
There are better ways to solve this problem.
Okie John
Lost River
01-18-12, 19:28
For IWB carry, I will stick with my Sparks rigs.
That being said, good on the company for trying new ideas/innovations.
F-Trooper05
01-18-12, 22:45
Looks like it could be a good idea for some UC officers and other niche applications.
Looks like Dale Fricke's Zack.
Because the Zack is a copy of the RCS Vanguard (which the RCS Phantom Vanguard is an alternate version of).
mkmckinley
01-18-12, 23:48
It looks really uncomfortable to me. I'm not really sure how much advantage this would have over a thin kydex.
I own one Phantom holster; have one in the "production" phase; and another in "processing."
As much as I love Raven products, I can't see me using one of these. But....that's just me.
It is interesting and looks well made. I would give it a shot. It might fit a niche somewhere in the rotation.
I have seen similar home made versions that all did not perform very well. With Raven's reputation, I am sure it has been tested and will perform as advertised.
O
I see my LCR and LCP working nicely with one of these.
RCSMichael
01-19-12, 03:10
Hey guys-
Glad to see some discussion going so soon after the unveiling of the VanGuard 2. I will compose a more detailed description and response to some of the questions and comments raised here over the next day or two, but I wanted to at least touch on a few points.
This product is different than any holster you have ever used, including its predecessor, the VanGuard 1. It is not intended to serve as a replacement for all holsters; rather, it is designed to provide a secure, safe means to carry a Glock IWB with a round in the chamber with the absolute minimum profile.
The VanGuard 1 was developed for certain clients who travelled abroad and needed a safe way to carry a concealed Glock in extremely "non-permissive environments," in attire much different than the traditional western style of clothing (i.e. pants with a belt were not an option). The VanGuard 2 takes this ability to a new level.
The VanGuard 2 has been in development for well over a year and a half. Some very knowledgeable, experienced dudes were heavily involved in the development and beta-testing of this product, and as the days continue after SHOT, you will begin seeing them chime in on this.
It is secure and stable, and has been extensively abused and tested by Southnarc and crew for over a year (starting at the Mid Atlantic Tactical Conference) in force-on-force classes around the country. If you've ever seen or been part of an ECQC, Vehicle BJJ, or MUCK/PUCK class with him, you have some idea of the violent forces these holsters were subjected to.
Suffice to say, the VanGuard 2 is SAFE. It is secure. It is quite comfortable. And it is very concealable. If it wasn't all of these things, we wouldn't have brought it to market. We're proud of the innovation it brings to the marketplace, and even more proud of the reception it has received here at SHOT Show by the professional community.
If you have specific questions about the VG2, please ask them here or on our Facebook page and Tom or I will do our best to answer them as quickly as possible (it can be a little tricky to stay on top of this while juggling meetings at SHOT, so bear with us!).
Rattlehead
01-19-12, 03:18
If you have specific questions about the VG2, please ask them here or on our Facebook page and Tom or I will do our best to answer them as quickly as possible (it can be a little tricky to stay on top of this while juggling meetings at SHOT, so bear with us!).
Thank you for coming on.
Do you have an ETA on these?
Really want to try a couple out.
Raven Armament
01-19-12, 03:23
$40 for that? $40 buys me a lot more holster than that and is just as concealable. I'm not seeing $40 worth of holster there.
What's the target market? Armed civilians or law enforcement?
I've put my prototype Vanguards through about 500 ECQC evolutions and they've held up with no material or design failure. That's more than any holster is rightly rated for.
I've had the opportunity to use this for the past 6 months and it's kind of one of those things you just have to try to see how awesome it really is. Very minimal yet secure, the only limitation this holster has is the ability to reholster the gun while wearing it. I tossed together a vid last night addressing a lot of these issues and how to wear it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b35E6xWnlHY
And another vid with Tom and Chris Costa.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/01/18/raven-concealment-intros-the-vanguard2/comment-page-1/#comment-19047
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-19-12, 11:05
If it works as advertised, I'm in the market for one to try out, and then 3 more later if Im happy.
This has already been thought of BTW.... the Zach holster by Dale Fricke
http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/products.htm 15 bucks
This has already been thought of BTW.... the Zach holster by Dale Fricke
http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/products.htm 15 bucks
It was originally envisioned by Shay Vanvlymen of Mindset Labratory and developed by RCS to make the original Vanguard. This is a much improved design on that with the addition of the loop and strut.
http://soldiersystems.net/2011/12/07/raven-vanguard/
If you have specific questions about the VG2, please ask them here or on our Facebook page and Tom or I will do our best to answer them as quickly as possible (it can be a little tricky to stay on top of this while juggling meetings at SHOT, so bear with us!).
Are there plans for other models of firearms? I'd primarily be interested in one for a PPS
Yes, watch the video. He said they plan for all their popular models.
-----------------
ETA: @35percent , have you tried it at 4 O'clock. That looks like it would be perfect for me and a PPS. The likely hood of my ever having to draw is minimal. Does the grip of the gun stay wrapped around flat.
Also am I seeing this correctly that you could tuck a shirt behind it and all that would show is that one loop?
Yes, watch the video. He said they plan for all their popular models.
Thanks, I will now, didn't realize there was a video on that page, doesn't show up on my iPad.
Yes, watch the video. He said they plan for all their popular models.
-----------------
ETA: @35percent , have you tried it at 4 O'clock. That looks like it would be perfect for me and a PPS. The likely hood of my ever having to draw is minimal. Does the grip of the gun stay wrapped around flat.
Also am I seeing this correctly that you could tuck a shirt behind it and all that would show is that one loop?
Yup the gun stays flat against your body, and yes it is fully tuckable, the only part exposed would be that one loop. I don't normally carry at the 4 o'clock position but it is very comfortable there as well. It's basically like sticking a gun in your pants, but having the trigger covered and it won't migrate or fall down :smile:
I guess I'll have to see this thing in action.
Definitely worth trying at that price point. I imagine a long road trip would be a useful application for this. Take it out while driving,place it all back on for quick stops in restaurants or gas stations. I hope the wait time is negligible once they're released.
If it's like the original Vanguard it should only take 7 to 14 days for shipping.
This has already been thought of BTW.... the Zach holster by Dale Fricke
http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/products.htm 15 bucks
I have some these. They are night and day from the Zach holster for no other reason that you can actuall re-holster your weapon without removing the holster.
This product is geared towards experienced shooters that want the maximum conceal ability.
IMHO, it is awesome and one of the best products I was shown at the Shot Show.
C4
Are there plans for other models of firearms? I'd primarily be interested in one for a PPS
Since SouthNarc and I are big fans of the PPS, I imagine that we will see some made.
C4
I have some these. They are night and day from the Zach holster for no other reason that you can actuall re-holster your weapon without removing the holster.
This product is geared towards experienced shooters that want the maximum conceal ability.
IMHO, it is awesome and one of the best products I was shown at the Shot Show.
C4
So when will you be carrying these? :D
Since SouthNarc and I are big fans of the PPS, I imagine that we will see some made.
C4
Tom got me one for my PPS and it's the heat for that little gun dude. Also on the other PPS project we talked about it looks like that they'll do it now for us based on HeadHunter's conversation with them at SHOT.
So when will you be carrying these? :D
As soon as they let me write them a check!
C4
Tom got me one for my PPS and it's the heat for that little gun dude. Also on the other PPS project we talked about it looks like that they'll do it now for us based on HeadHunter's conversation with them at SHOT.
Cool brother. I also spoke to them and advised them that I would buy a lot of them (in the hopes to get them interested).
C4
Got an email from Raven. Feb 1. $35.
Anything in there about pre-ordering?
Anything in there about pre-ordering?
No, he just said that they would be available for purchase on Feb 1 through their website.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-20-12, 08:00
I cant express how excited I am for the release of these. As soon as it hits the store, I claim all of them.
I cant express how excited I am for the release of these. As soon as it hits the store, I claim all of them.
Yup, I think once these are released and more people get a chance to wear them they'll realize how nice of a product it really is.
Yup, I think once these are released and more people get a chance to wear them they'll realize how nice of a product it really is.
Yep. Gave one to my local LE buddy and he immediately took off his appendix carry rig and started to wear it. Much better than the dedicated one he was using.
I am wearing a GEN 2 G19 at the 4 position. Gun disappears and a is MUCH more comfortable than using a full IWB kydex holsters.
C4
Grant are you saying you have these now? I want one for PPS if you have it. Or are these just your personal stash so to speak?
ETA: Also on the rotation / tilt feature. Is that like an indexed system that has multiple static positions or is it a tension system that is constantly variable?
G17 Concealed
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/RCS_VSGL.jpg
G17 Shown
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/RCS_VSGL1.jpg
C4
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-20-12, 12:23
Seing those pics really reaffirms my beliefs in this produc. After talking to Tom about it today, Im totally sold. Ive been envisioning a minimalist AIWB holster for a J Frame for a long time, and when I saw this I knew Raven would be able to make something that really worked.
DeltaSierra
01-20-12, 18:32
Grant, thanks for posting those pictures.
I have been playing musical holsters for the past year, and haven't run across anything that I worked well enough for me to stick with one holster, but this looks like it'll take the cake...
:cool:
Looks like it could be a good idea for some UC officers
Maybe for some ultra deep cover working in an extremely dangerous environment. Definitely not for daily LE carry if it can't be reholstered safely with minimal effort.
Tom Fineis
01-21-12, 18:44
Maybe for some ultra deep cover working in an extremely dangerous environment. Definitely not for daily LE carry if it can't be reholstered safely with minimal effort.
Correct.
This is a niche item, designed for a minimalist approach. It will have some downsides (like every product does), and the VG2's is one-handed reholstering. We understood this going in. RCS and our designers/testers of the VG2 believe that it offers a number of positive attributes for the consumer to weigh against the negative (lack of reholstering one handed).
We will have additional videos/information available soon (I'm still in the airport trying to get home from SHOT). I think as more information surfaces, a number of guys who may be on the fence will see the capability this item has.
It is not designed to take the place of traditional, full size holsters. For its niche, however, we feel it does a great job.
I have been wearing one daily for a year and a half now, as well as other guys such as Southnarc and his crew, some MIL/GOV guys overseas, among others. We look forward to releasing more information when we can.
In the meantime, if you guys have any specific questions, please ask.
Tom
Correct.
This is a niche item, designed for a minimalist approach. It will have some downsides (like every product does), and the VG2's is one-handed reholstering. We understood this going in. RCS and our designers/testers of the VG2 believe that it offers a number of positive attributes for the consumer to weigh against the negative (lack of reholstering one handed).
To clarify, my comment only had to do with LE, and the need to stow your gun when it turns from a gunfight to a wrestling match. For CCW, it looks like a very interesting idea.
I have been running them for about a year now as well,
and it has become my favorite holster for travel and deep carry
Awesome job guys
Tom Fineis
01-22-12, 16:37
Regarding "Safety"-
Some have voiced concerns over the "safety" of our new VG2. They have assumed, for some unknown reason, that the VG2 is less safe than a traditional holster.
This only shows a misunderstanding in how this holster is to be used.
A compelling argument can be made that the VG2 is safer than traditional holsters. No other holster covers the trigger guard before re-holstering. With every other traditional AIWB (or strongside) holster, there is a space of about 8" above the holster where your trigger is susceptible to untrained trigger fingers, jacket pulls and zippers, and loose clothing finding their way into your trigger guard and unintentionally discharging the firearm. This is a training and equipment issue, and one that we all work through to safety re-holster our firearms.
With the VG2, the unit comes out of the pant line and is snapped back on the pistol while the muzzle is still pointed down range. The gun is then easily slipped back into the pant line (while maintaining a secure firing grip), and the loop resnapped. The trigger is protected during the most dangerous part of re-holstering.
This is not to say traditional holsters are "unsafe." This is to simply say that anyone saying the VG2 is "unsafe" does not understand the concept.
There will be a video coming up on Youtube where I do a fairly extensive overview and demo of the VG2, and I believe it will clear up a lot of these questions.
Tom
Great, now a bigger order to place when these come out for the LCR
I have been using the VG2 for well over a year now and can say with confidence that it is my favorite way to carry a pistol concealed.
It safely covers the entire trigger guard while securing it to your belt so that a consistent and full firing grip can be achieved each time.
I prefer the "appendix" IWB carry placement and re-holstering is very simple with two hands.
As many others have said, this is not meant to be a run and gun direct action holster. It excels in it's intended role as a comfortable holster that has a minimal amount of material footprint added to the gun.
For those that carry with a forward cant,
Is one constantly having to adjust their degree of cant throughout the day with this?
In the pic Grant posted, it just looks like the weight of a full mag would keep pulling it rearward
resulting in a negative cant, even more so with loose fitting clothing or a busy day where your constantly on the move.
For those that carry with a forward cant,
Is one constantly having to adjust their degree of cant throughout the day with this?
In the pic Grant posted, it just looks like the weight of a full mag would keep pulling it rearward
resulting in a negative cant, even more so with loose fitting clothing or a busy day where your constantly on the move.
I have not encountered that problem, but I'm not using any cant. I've only had mine since Monday and have been playing around with it both strong side IWB (3-4 o'clock) and AIWB (first time I have used this method, still figuring it out). The strut is textured where the soft loop comes into contact with it, preventing the soft loop from rotating. I think Raven should incorporate this feature into all of their struts.
I really think this is the ultimate CCW holster. Even using it strong side IWB, this holster tucks the gun into your body so well that its basically invisible. The comfort also really surprised me as you don't even feel the gun or its weight. As stated before, this isn't a range holster, this is a carry all day everyday holster, and I think it does this job perfectly.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-29-12, 01:03
I have a T&E sample on route as we speak. I will be carrying a blue trainer gun for a few weeks and will report back with my findings. I am very excited and gracious to get to test this out, thanks RCS.
If Jake at Ares can match the brown swatch I need, I will be carrying it in a Ranger belt, if not, I will just use my brown instructor belt.
I was fortunate this summer to be given one of these to T&E. Being in Florida where a cover garment can be problematic, I found the Vanguard 2 to work quite well with my Glock 17 while only wearing a shirt.
As a side benefit, if I'm carrying but going to go into a place where concealed carry is a no-go/felony e.g. the Post Office, it's easy for me to remove the holster and pistol as one unit and store it in my vehicle's lock box.
It's my daily carry "go to" holster now and I look forward to when they expand the selection to include HK P30's.
As is typical with Raven Concealment, they made a good thing better and really did their homework before releasing it to the public at large.
Tom or Michael,
Will the Vanguard 2 work with Glocks that have had the trigger guard modified? My Glocks have the lower part of the trigger guard thinned down to get rid of the "Glock knuckle" issue.
Thanks.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-11-12, 08:06
Tom or Michael,
Will the Vanguard 2 work with Glocks that have had the trigger guard modified? My Glocks have the lower part of the trigger guard thinned down to get rid of the "Glock knuckle" issue.
Thanks.
Im wondering this as well as my 19's trigger guard has been rounded and thinned.
Im wondering this as well as my 19's trigger guard has been rounded and thinned.
Let us know how it turns out with your T&E sample. I have been searching for a low profile carry method and have never been too comfortable with the things I've tried thus far. The bulky holster, rather than the gun, was always the issue.
I've got a gen 2 Glock 23 with a modified trigger guard. And also an unmodified Gen 3 Glock 26 and an unmodified gen 4 Glock 17, I'll see what the differences between those is when my shows up.
dirt_diver
02-12-12, 19:05
I'm really looking forward to trying one or two of these out.
Any word on a release date?
I've seen more than a few comments about this not being a replacement for a standard IWB holster...Is this due to the re-holstering issue? Or something else?
I live in TX, so as you can imagine, like Stony275 said, cover garments are mostly limited to thin shirts...I also don't wear undershirts, so not sure if the sweat/gun thing would be a problem in the long run...but anyways, I carry in a Crossbreed SuperTuck at the 4:00 position and have never had a problem concealing in even the lightest of shirts.
Aside from one-handed re-holstering, what does the Vanguard2 NOT DO that my Crossbreed does that will prevent the Vanguard from becoming my primary holster?? I see alot of potential for this to become my standard carry, but am I missing something?
Tom Fineis
02-13-12, 11:14
Tom or Michael,
Will the Vanguard 2 work with Glocks that have had the trigger guard modified? My Glocks have the lower part of the trigger guard thinned down to get rid of the "Glock knuckle" issue.
Thanks.
Unfortunately, we can't answer that question. If the trigger guard is heavily modified, it may not fit. As long as the internal dimensions of the trigger guard are the same as factory, it should fit without issue.
If your trigger guard is modified to the point where it no longer functions in form fitting Kydex holsters (like our Phantom), it probably won't work with the VG2.
A number of our guys have their trigger guards undercut and polished. This does not affect fit of the VG2.
Unfortunately, we can't answer that question. If the trigger guard is heavily modified, it may not fit. As long as the internal dimensions of the trigger guard are the same as factory, it should fit without issue.
If your trigger guard is modified to the point where it no longer functions in form fitting Kydex holsters (like our Phantom), it probably won't work with the VG2.
A number of our guys have their trigger guards undercut and polished. This does not affect fit of the VG2.
Mine only has the trigger guards undercut and polished. It will still fit into standard holsters using the internal diameter of the trigger guard to retain the gun, like the Bladetechs. I don't think it should be a problem.
I'm sorry if I missed this earlier, but when is the VG2 supposed to come out? I would like to purchase one to test. :)
Go to their Facebook page. They started doing a presale on the 8th. All the instructions on how to order are on there. If there's still any left....
Outside of the folks who are going to buy them but don't have that application being upset that it doesn't defy the laws of physics, this looks seriously great.
If these stay popular, I might wind up with one for an M&P9C
LowSpeed_HighDrag
02-29-12, 14:46
Ive had my T&E sample for a few days now. I'm currently serving the rest of sentence on a boat, so excuse the SIRT trainer. I will write a review shortly. My impression: this holster is revolutionary and incredible.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/edit8.jpg
I received my Vanguard 2 today.
I think it's broken, it won't even conceal my Glock 26.
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g342/F2SConsulting/783d52de.jpg
Just kidding guys. It conceals very well.
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g342/F2SConsulting/d6d427c9.jpg
I've been wearing it around the house since I got home this afternoon, chamber empty and empty magazine inserted for basic trial. I've been using The Dale Fricke Arch Angel for a while now with a Glock 23. I've loved that piece but it's going to have to share time with the VG2 and the Glock 26.
The bottom picture is with the VG2 and Glock 26. Wearing a basic Under Armour shirt. The concealment ability with such a minimal shirt is remarkable. It's on the right side of the body(1 O'Clock)left on the picture.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7176/6786948404_8d40285a32_b.jpg
What is RCS's release date on this?
Tom Fineis
03-12-12, 12:11
What is RCS's release date on this?
No date set. We are working on this project as quickly as we can. We're finalizing some of the legal details and hope to have these to market soon.
Will this be for AIWB carry only or will they work for regular IWB too?
Will this be for AIWB carry only or will they work for regular IWB too?
You could put it anywhere, really.
You could put it anywhere, really.
I understand that in theory but since it looks like you remove it from the beltloop to "reholster" how would that work from the strong side? What I'm picturing in my mind seems awkward.
I understand that in theory but since it looks like you remove it from the beltloop to "reholster" how would that work from the strong side? What I'm picturing in my mind seems awkward.
I'm unclear as to what you mean by "remove it from the beltloop".
To re-holster, you unsnap the Pull-The-Dot and remove the holster from your belt/pants. Attach it to the trigger guard area, then put the whole kit back into your pants.
The whole VG2 is removed from your person during reholstering. Putting it back is as simple as tucking the gun in your pants and looping the attachment strap around your belt.
I'm unclear as to what you mean by "remove it from the beltloop".
To re-holster, you unsnap the Pull-The-Dot and remove the holster from your belt/pants. Attach it to the trigger guard area, then put the whole kit back into your pants.
The whole VG2 is removed from your person during reholstering. Putting it back is as simple as tucking the gun in your pants and looping the attachment strap around your belt.
And all that seems fine if I'm carrying from an AIWB postion but if I'm carrying at 3:30 - 4:00 position it could get awkward reaching across and behind.
Tom Fineis
03-12-12, 13:52
It is optimized for AIWB, but works for strong side as well. You'd just reach over and unsnap it from the belt with your off hand just as you would AIWB.
Depending on carry location, arm mobility, addition or lack of food blisters....that may or may not be possible based on the individual user's size. I have no trouble with it personally, but bigger guys may have an issue.
No date set. We are working on this project as quickly as we can. We're finalizing some of the legal details and hope to have these to market soon.
When y'all do release it, will it be available for other pistols as well?
Thanks
I live in FL and look forward to trying this.
The slow re-holstering isn't much of an issue for a CCW if the tradeoff is better concealment IMO. If this allows me to replace my j-frame with a G26 or G19 (and get my pocket back!) in t-shirt + shorts weather, it's worth its weight in gold.
O'DubhGhaill
05-29-12, 16:03
What is the expected release date, ballpark?
Tom Fineis
05-29-12, 16:37
What is the expected release date, ballpark?
We're on the home stretch. I can't give a specific date, but we're working hard to make sure everything is just right and we'll have it on our website.
When it does launch, they will ship very quickly.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
05-30-12, 11:09
And all that seems fine if I'm carrying from an AIWB postion but if I'm carrying at 3:30 - 4:00 position it could get awkward reaching across and behind.
There is really no issue with it. Its like putting on any other snap IWB holster, just dont be rough with it. It works great at AIWB, but works just as fine in a standard IWB config:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/glockfire/edit7.jpg
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