Bingo.
After you understand the fundamentals of the AR, move on to the pistol.
C4
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This is not true. One of the things most people new to the platform wonder about is the whole 1/9 barrel twist thing. The twist, in itself doesn't have that big of an impact on the quality of a rifle. But, if you buy a 1/9 twist barreled rifle, chances are very good that the chamber is .223 and not 5.56, the gas port is oversized, the gas key is prolly not staked correctly, the bolt is almost always the wrong steel and not tested to standard, and the BCG is prolly semi-auto. There aren't very many examples out there of carbines with just one thing wrong with them.
Actually, you're only a sucker if you pay too much for the low level guns. A S&W for $650, as another poster listed, is not a bad deal. A Bushmaster for $700 or more is an ass-raping. First of all, you can get a much better quality carbine for slightly more money, and if just one thing breaks or needs fixed on the lower level guns, you suddenly are screwed, and now have paid just as much as if you bought the better quality gun to begin with.Quote:
I look at the issue much the same as I look at other tools. A cheap harbor Freight drill compared to a Makita for example. If I want a drill to hang pictures in the house i will buy one and if I'm building a house I will buy the other. If the cheapie needs to be used to drill through something serious every once and a while it will do so, but I wouldn't buy one if I was a contractor. I apply that analogy to the average owner who may need to use it for SD vs a professional soldier or Tactical Officer. When it comes to the "when your life is on the line" point. Lets be honest. Most modern weapons from a modern manufacturer will do just fine as a home defense weapon...saying that a Oly, Stag etc is likely to go "click" when you need it to shoot a burglar is a tad hyperbolic IMO. A soldier has vastly different needs than a homeowner. I agree with the guy making the Ford vs. Porcshe analogy as a similar argument. Listing specs that some weapons have and others don't as a buyers guide is a GREAT service, don't get me wrong and you do "get what you pay for" absolutely. But extending the point into "yours suck and you were a sucker for buying it and mine is better" is juvenile IMO.
This, I do not get. Noone gets "mocked" here for owning a lower quality gun. The only people who get harassed or mocked here are the ones who invite it upon themselves by acting like complete asses.Quote:
I wonder if there is a Makita forum that invests much time in mocking Harbor Freight drill buyers? :)
Seriously. I do not get people who think this website is harsh. I find this website to be very down the middle, but I think it attracts an inordinate amount of immature people who refuse to accept objective reality.
Your needs are all the matters to you.
Where you are getting into a problem (especially on this forum) is that you attempted to justify you purchase without FIRST stating that your M&P is nothing more than a toy that you really didn't even need.
So here is how you should have started your post in this thread:
I picked up an M&P OR for a smokin deal and am very happy with it. It does everything I need it to and realize that is just a range toy that I won't be betting my life on.
Something like the above would have saved you a lot of typing. ;)
C4
Ahhh..on the "betting your life on thing". That S+W would do just fine to "bet your life on" for the shooter that isnt putting thousands of rounds through it (and even if he was..if he kept up on maint and parts replacement he should be fine). For a Soldier? maybe not. That is the sort of hyperbole I was talking about upthread.
Thanks much.
For the record, I really don't care what gun you own. I don't even own ANY of the guns I listed as "the best." I do own a BM though. :eek:
What matters at the end of the day is that you take YOUR AR to a carbine class and learn how to use it properly.
C4
Honest question: Have you found any of the other threads where some of the exact posters you are arguing with assisted folks just like you into ensuring their "not quite ready for prime time" carbines were made reasonably capable and reliable?
Because the normal response to a new gun-owner who asks honest, non-ego driven "look at me" questions by some of the most knowledgeable posters is to "fix a, b and c and run the crap out of it until you can make it break."
Seriously. Still think your $650 S&W is a good deal, but you have a tendency to drama-queen a bit on just about everything else.
FYI: Makita forums DO trash Harbor Freight drill buyers... It is what it is.
I initially posted in this thread, because I honestly thought it was going to be one of those "Fun": "mine is better than yours" threads. And the fact that I saw it go 40+ pages and get totally off track; including the moderator telling people to get back on track. So I thought I would throw a nice light hearted post of why I liked the M&P that I just bought.
Well; I now know why this thread went 40+ pages and have totally gone off track. While there is a lot of good information being provided; there is also a lot of closed minded and rationalized opinions. I hope to be able to discuss different topics with some of you. There are definitely some really knowledgeable individuals here. But this thread, and many of the comments, are totally wasting my time. Sorry, but I need to move on. Some can believe that I'm bailing on the argument, but I'm not. Until some individuals realize that not everybody has the same needs, environments, threats, skill levels, etc... there can never be an honest and open discussion. Did I ever say that an AR couldn't be the better defense choice for someone? Nope, never said that. But for me, it's not the most practical. But some people think everyone else revolves around their world. Sorry; you're wrong. We don't. And I never once said that it was a waste for anyone to purchase a $1000, $1500, $2000 AR. Matter of fact; I mentioned where it would be quite realistic and practical for a person to need/want one; based on certain uses. But again; there are some who believe that because they bought a particular AR, then all others need to live at their requirements and have that version of AR. Oh, and by the way, I NEVER, EVER, EVER rely on a gun to "Protect my life". The gun is a "TOOL". I rely on ME to protect MY LIFE!!!
Sorry; but this is a total waste of my time. You all have a great day. Shoot often and shoot safe.
The problem you have which was pointed out by Grant is your intent and delivery of the message was flawed.
If you quit talking out your ASS...you won't be served fresh CROW!
Justifying a purchase with the intent to rationalize a sub par purchase because you feel your rifle is as good as the other guys is almost comedy. No one here said S&W was a shit rifle, just that in comparison you can get a lot more mileage under "real" use from a better manufacturer. Grant was correct though, "professionals" are dependent upon a weapon that will perform under arduous conditions. I average 6-8k per year on my duty rifles. Thank God parts are readily available locally and online for me to maintain a working gun.
Enjoy your purchase, just don't assume that this board is for the weekend ninja master. It isn't, if you wanted pixie dust and ****ing unicorns to praise your purchase you chose the wrong site.
I think you will find many posters (that really do know what they are talking about) have the same feeling as you (that they wasted their time).
Opinions. They are like aholes and everyone has one. What is important to realize is that not everyones opinion is of value.
This forum is geared towards folks that carry a weapon for their job and DO plan on using one to defend themselves. Because of this, reliability and quality are the most important things. You might want to try out some other forums on the net (as they are much more geared towards "dirt shooting" and plinking).
C4
once upon a time I was a rock climber. Talk about gear your life depended on. Even then I didn't buy "the best that money could buy". I bought "the best I COULD AFFORD". Thats not to say that I used carabiners I purchased at Harbor Freight, but I didn't buy top of the line either. When it comes to a solid, dependible, weapon that can do a fine job as a home defense weapon many of these "lower tier" guns will work just fine. Saying that you (once again NOT TALKING ABOUT a soldier or an armed professional) are risking your life because you bought a RR is BS.
IMHO.
There are several top quality AR's and the difference seperating them from a lower quality AR is generally $50-$100 dollars.
So if a better rope or carabiner was a $3-5 dollars more, wouldn't you spend the little extra? I know I would.
Odds. That is what we are talking about here. The better quality AR IS going to be more reliable. So again, are you willing to play the odds and bet your life on a gun that isn't built properly? Again, I am not as my life is worth more than that. Your life might not be and that is your decision.
Same goes with training. I am assuming that you would use a firearm to defend yourself with. Ever taken a training class? How bout a home defense class? My life is worth a lot so I take as much training as possible so that I can survive the fight.
Just sayin...
C4
"Serving fresh crow daily since 2006"...Over 15,000 served!:D
I didn't include your time on TOS.
wow, this tread is still happening.
LOL, true.
I do try and be patient and define my background and where I am coming from (as I do this chit for a living), but I sometimes feel like I am talking to myself.
Its kind of like driving a car and then trying to tell the auto mechanic that he doesn't know WTF he is talking about (as you know more about how the car operates because it is yours and you drive it).
Stange phenomenon.
Oh well, back to building guns....
C4
As the owner of an HK416, I enjoy taking my Bushmaster XM15 to the range and plinking with it. I've never had a malfunction of any kind and for what I do with it I have no complaints. After almost 8,000 rounds this past year, the only thing I've changed is the pistol grip. Nothing has broken and I've never so much as gotten a hiccup out of it.
Is it as solid as my HK? Of course not. Would I ever "bet my life on it"? Not for home defense. I have my P226 for that. But for the range shooter who wants to enjoy themself, a lot of the cheaper AR's out there are a good buy. Odds are that 99% of gun owners will never use one in self defense in their home, so setting that fantasy aside, unless you're a hardcore shooter who actively participates in competition/classes or your job requires you to use a personal rifle, I don't see how there's a problem with buying a "cheap" AR.
Does it fire? Roger. Does it cycle? Yup. If we do our part as the operator of the weapon, ie cleaning it and replacing worn parts as they need it, then you'll never have an issue.
Just my $.02. :)
You weirdos with your "not a cop or soldier; so I don't need a weapon that has a highger chance of performing and saving my life if I should need it to" BS; are just effing nuts to me.
I don't understand this logic whatsoever? Only Soldiers and Police need to have proper tools for defending lives? Thats just twilight zone crazy to me.
Lets look at some details here:
1) A wepaon built to or superseding the TDP has alower % chance of failure.
2) A weapon not built to and not superseding the TDP has a higher % chance of failure.
My life, my wifes life, my family's lives, and my confidence in defending those lives is VERY important, and WORTH more than all the gold in the world to me.
Why would I buy a weapon that is known to have a higher % chance at failure, all that means is that if I do get into the wrong scenario; I have a higher % chance of not getting out alive; and where is the logic in that?
It makes absolutely no sense.
Conforming to the logic that you shouldn't worry about your life more when you use tools that have a higher % chance at failure VS. using tools with a lower % chance failure is effing absurd; regardless of LE/MIl/Civilian/whatever.
I don't care if you are LEO, MIL, Civvy, a one eyed one horned flying purple people eater; a better gun that is built to be more reliable is just that; A BETTER GUN THAT IS BUILT BETTER TO BE MORE RELIABLE. Especially since you can get them for the same cost, a bit more, and sometimes a bit less than the lower tier rifles that are known to be inferior; if you are deal/shopping savy and aren't in a hurry to just get a rifle.
WHen it comes down to it, I don't think (And I pray I don't) I will ever HAVE to use any weapon for SD or HD; but knowing it is a possibility, I'm gonna make sure I am 100% ready for that situation, with the proper tools. Knowing I have a proper built rifle that exceeds the TDP and has the best % chance of saving my/family's lives; well thats a gravy train with biscuit wheels for me. Oh and seeing as how I got it for about the same price as most lower tier rifles (Research and patience!); thats just the bees knees.
This separation in the importance of lives/tools of Civilians VS. Mil/LEO is ludicrous.
If your life isn't worth the extra $$$ or patience (OR just doing the research and spending the same or less sometimes);then what is???!!!?!?!?!?
Lets put it into other words.
You can buy (1) lotto ticket of (3) different kinds:
Lotto Ticket #1) Has a 75% chance of winning cost $5
Ticket #2) has a 30% chance of winning; cost $2.50
Ticket #3) has a 95% chance of winning; cost $6.50
I would take ticket #3 everytime; knowing I have abetter chance of winning. YMMV!
This Summer I got into car detailing in a big way. I knew very little about the subject so I went to some professional car detailing forums. I read and I read and than I read some more. Then after consuming vast amounts of data, I bought my equipment. I then used said equipment and products on my cars. Turned out pretty well, but I did have some questions and so I posted on said forum. The guys that responded make their living by detailing $100,000 dollar cars. I listened to what they had to say and thanked them for their time.
I realized that just because I owned all the same gear as them, that I didn't know 1/10th of what they knew. I didn't try and tell the folks that do it for a living that they were wrong, or didn't know what they were talking about. I just listened.
I wonder why this type of stuff rarely happens on gun forums?
C4
Ease down. My point being that a soldier may be putting many more rounds through his weapon overall or in a particular engagement vs a. "average homeowner" who may want an AR for home defense. Since the point was made that this is mostly about reliability over a certain number of rounds vs a weapon simply just not working at any random moment. Saying that this persons S&W is only useful for or should be used for "plinking" is hyperbole IMO.
If this person is going to be a serious trainer and shoot up a few K of ammo a year? Different story.
Gun=Phallic appendage?
Dick measuring syndrome?
Grant, what is your opinion.
The problem with this logic is that you simply don't know how many rounds that is. 5? 10? 100? 1,000? 5,000? Who knows!
The part that you are forgetting is that PRIOR to said shoot out with said bad guy, you most likely have fired the weapon many times.
For 4,575 rounds the gun ran great. On the 4,576th round, the bolt snapped in half.
See the point?
C4
I gottcha; wasn't trying to be too overbearing.
I just don't like the separation in importance of gear of civvilians VS. LEO/Mil.
At any moment, any place in the world can turn into a war zone; regardless of if you are civvy/LEO/MIL; it would be better to have the most reliable best built weapon one could possibly find.
Affording that weapon is a different story. I have gotten very imaginative in the past on how I would save money to buy things out of my price range. It takes more time than we are usually wanting to wait, but disclipline is a good thing to practice; and good things are worth wating for.
There are tens of thousands of ways to make supplementary income if one is willing and able to do so.
One in particular I always fall back on when I need some extra $$$; is salvaging materials from construction dumpsters. THey throw out so much copper wire, partial 2X4's, cans of paint, bolts of carpet, screws, nuts bolts, nails, plywood, aluminum framing members, etc.
I have made literally thousands of free dollars from just sifting through crap and finding stuff to sell right back to the contractors or recycle for cash. (I actually just built a new rifle from cash I got from collecting lead from ranges and recycling it/selling to local bullet casters. Rifle cost=Man hours collecting and cleaning lead. I got my friends and family that go shooting with me to trade their time collecting lead, for time with my rifles and my ammo. Not a bad deal.)
Getting an extra $100.00-$300.00 to buy a DD/BCM/Colt over a BM/RRA/OLY is very easy, and takes just a bit of forethought, time and effort.
With how rifles are priced these days; the old excuse of: "I couldn't afford a tier 1 rifle" is obsolete, the only excuse now is "I didn't properly do my research and bought a lesser quality rifle for the same price as I could have gotten a better one for".
Most men believe that since GOD blessed them with a Penis, they know how to do three things well (from birth).
These are:
1. Drive.
2. Screw.
3. Shoot.
The fact is that none of us do any of them well without practice. We also don't know what we don't know about these three things.
At a certain point, we achieve light bulb moments and realize that we have a long way to go before we master one of these subjects.
For instance, my first couple room clearing events didn't go so well (hostage killed). My problem was that I was attempting to go faster than I could handle and thusly made poor decisions. I spent time thinking about the subject and learning what I didn't know. I also asked a lot of questions from professional shooters and applied their teachings.
The other reason for this "dick measuring contest" is the sense of security that the errornet provides. I have seen people say things to and about people that they would NEVER say to that person face to face.
There was a thread on here last year where a guy was making fun of someone that was over weight (class AAR with pics). The guy was 6'4 280-300 and into MMA/Boxing. You would never stand in front of him and call him a "fat bastard."
C4
Back to my climbing gear analogy. If your life is depending on it you inspect it frequently, you replace stuff as needed, you know what it's capabilities are and you will be fine.
If I was going to try El Cap would I pack out with the same stuff as I had for the Adirondacks? No. Would I brag that I could summit Cap with my "hobby climber gear"? and that my stuff was "as good as or better than" the better quality stuff? No. But it worked just fine and I trusted my life with it within the parameters I was climbing in.
Just to be clear, I have no "problem" with the rankings you guys have put together here. Not all rifles are created equal. Agreed. But I think that some of the "I wouldn't trust my life to that low tier gun" is a bit of an overstatement at times depending on who you are talking about. Hell my dept SWAT team uses...gasp...Bushmasters! Horrors! :)
YMMV.
Only an overstatement until a lower tier rifle malfs while defending ones life, ann ones life is lost. Then it is an understatement.
I know of an incident with one of my former best friends (RIP) that wound up dead due to inferior parts in an AR-15 carbine that failed to chamber a round during a home intrusion. He's dead, had he gone with a better rifle he may still be dead, but his chances would have been better.
I'll always take better chances/odds than staking them up against myself due to poor/illinformed chioces.
It's not about the fall. Its about how the gear is used and the overall needs/demands of the route and if the gear is sufficient for the task.
On one hand we hear "your Bushmaster will probably never fail. Im talking about reliability for guys that shoot multi-K round courses multiple times a year". Then later its "don't trust your life to a gun unless its a...."
For the "average joe" who isnt running his gun hard all year long most of these "lower tier" guns will work absolutely fine in a home defense scenario and the idea that a BM is going to suddenly break at any second is a bit of a leap. That isnt saying that the gun is "better than" a top tier. Or even "as good as" (never said that). And if you are out to buy right now and can find/afford a Colt vs a BM...by all means buy the Colt.
It's all about odds, and the odds that a BM/RRA/OLY will fail is higher than that of a colt/DD/BCM. It isn't magic, it is odds. A higher chance at failure,means a higher chance at failure during a time when a failure could mean your life. I like the odds to be on my side as much as possible.
I'm not saying that the RRA/OLY/BM won't work when you need it to save your life, I am saying that it has a higher percentage chance of not working VS. other higher quality rifles.
Odds are odds, it's up to you to decide if you want them in your favor or not...
Grant I fully agree with you. Thankfully, my father alleviated me of my prefrontal cortex and amygdala disallowing me from not having foot in mouth moments and being fearful of guys twice my size. Have I receive dressing downs and ass whoopings...yep. Will I continue to say what I need to in either text or FTF, yep. Again another reason why men need wives to rein in our tendencies to be pricks.
PS, I would call him "fat" right after I offered him all you can eat ribs and beer. Of course I would be kidding. I prefer to have my head attached to my neck.:D
Well unfortunately this thread has outlived its' purpose because some people still can't get a clue. So its' going to take a break for a while. Maybe some of you can sit back, relax and read through here and understand why it was started.