first carbine/pistol class

hey guy's i'm a noobie that just registered and this is my 1st post, I saw an ad for this forum in either swat/sof/sgn. Anyway I chose this forum after lurking for awhile and thought you guy's where at least civil and knowledgeable about the ar for the most part as I know nothing of this weapon system. Definitely more to my liking here than ar15, which I lurk at also but those guy's sometimes bog me down so I chose m4 to register at for ar info. here's my question and some background: just got 1st ar, an olyarms k3b, sighted it in while learning about it, 2" high at 100 yds, dead on at 25, used monarch to sight. All this in prep for a carbine 1 class at Tiger Valley in Waco, Texas instructed by TJ Pilling (Dallas swat). What I need to know is what preps I nned before the class and what I need to work on for the class, I have been practising dry fire/trigger pull/jam-misfires-fte-ftf drills at home in spare time to prep as best I can. I will also be taking pistol 1 from TJ but that's another thread alltogether any help/info from you guy's would be appreciated, thanx.

ps: also I know olyarms are considered crap but that's what I could afford so that's what I got. A cmmg will come in time and budget. I will also be taking an Zastava Yugo M90a .223 with me to get dually trained on ar and ak. The M90a is one sweet and beautiful ak , it's an underfolder only thing I don't like.

Other than making sure you have functional gear and a good attitude, not much should be required for anything considered a beginner/"level 1" class. Presumably, the instructor is going to teach you to do all the things you're practicing on your own now. Quite possibly, he's going to teach you to do them in a different way than you're doing them now.

Not to sound snide, but as a rule it's better to learn first, then practice ... not the other way around. New shooters who already have bad habits can be some of the most difficult students to teach.

Having spent a couple years in Waco (as a college student, not a Branch Davidian), I'd recommend you bring suitable clothing for warm weather and rain. Make sure you can access your weapons and mags with the rain gear on. Bring sunscreen and bug repellant. You know, pretend you're going to be outdoors for a couple of days. :cool:

Bring plenty of water and some powerbar type snacks to keep your energy up without a caffeine/sugar crash. If you want to be a superhero, bring a case of bottled water so there's some for everyone. I've made many friends by stopping off for $5 worth of waters on my way to class in the morning.

Wear comfortable shoes or boots that have been broken in. Cruel as it sounds, I have zero sympathy for a student who shows up with his brand new cool-guy combat boots. He gets to learn the hard way what 8-9 hours on his feet for two days will do to the blisters growing on top of his blisters.

Bring more magazines than required ... but don't waste money on bringing extra ammo. Instructors almost always over-estimate the amount of ammo they'll get through in a class. (I'm as guilty of this as anyone)

Bring a convenient container for carrying spare ammo. You don't want to lug your entire kit up and down a 300m range all day long when you could instead have a hundred or so rounds in a small coffee can.

Have your rifle at least approximately zeroed. Getting it fine-tuned is almost certainly part of any level one class, but you might as well start ahead of the curve.

And one other little hint, not necessarily in line with your question but it comes to mind: try not to be the best shooter in the class. An instructor only has so much time and attention, and the simple fact is that he needs to address problems. If you're the star pupil it might be good for your ego, but you're likely to get less attention, less coaching, and therefore less value from the instructor. Don't try to be the stud. Try to be the open-minded, interested, hard-working student. Those are the guys that get the best an instructor has to offer.

bring good quality commercial ammo
Too often in my classes I see folks with gun show reloads or steel cased ammo have all kinds of problems and disrupt the class.

Make sure your carbine is well lubed. In a class when you shoot a lot carbines that are not lubed will fail. I like Echo chainsaw bar oil myself.

Mike

thanx huy's for your reply's, know I got another question. I was doing some more research on classes/training and came across some info that stated to make sure the course you take is geared toward what you want to learn (ie: combat/fighting traing vs competition training). I want to learn the former as oppose to the latter and while looking at the training resource came across trident concepts, it seems more geared to my interests (after looking at their web site) as opposed to tiger valley which i've learned from a former student, is quite good but geared toward competitive 3 gun and long range shooting competitions. As stated this will be my first foray into training and want some good skills to take away. Can any of you clarify for me or is it all the same basically (which I definitely don't believe it is!).

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum mods, please move if it is. I'm just trying to learn, as a total noob.

There are many concepts and skillsets that crossover between tactical training and competition. Probably the most significant difference is in "mindset". Competition mindset is geared toward doing what it takes to win the game while a tactical mindset involves doing what it takes to win the fight/survive the encounter. While the fundamentals of marksmanship and safe gun handling are fairly universal, the difference between "running and gunning" vs. "taking the fight to the threat" can be quite substantial.

big54,

I'm one of TJ's adjunct instructors and I can assure you, you will receive a good basis of instruction in the carbine to build on however you wish from TJ. He is the real deal from the defensive firearms angle, having done the deed with a rifle and having trained MANY more who have had to engage violent armed offenders.

Todd's advice was excellent. You won't be disappointed in the class.

Wayne

Don't "What if..?" the instructor to death. A few realistic "what if" questions are good, but don't be that putz that what ifs every whacked out possible scenario on earth.

I recommend one of the following zeroes for a real fighting carbine, unless requested otherwise from your instructor.

100 meter/yard zero- the best zero for 200 yards and under. It will make close range work easier as you will much less offset, and it will provide a more consistent offset alteration than other zeroes. The bullet will only drop about 2.5" at 200 yards, and about 12" at 300. Most dedicated CQB types (but not all) prefer and teach this zero.

50/200 meter/yard zero- You can do this at either 50 or 200 yards, I prefer at 200, but many people do not have ranges to support this distance. This zero will provide excellent mid-range ability, as the bullet will only rise about 2" above the line of sight from 50 to about 200 yards, and drop only about 7" at 300. The close range will be a little more drastic as far as offset is involved, but will be under the LOS out to 50.

300 meter/yard zero and different plane iron A2 sights- To really do this right, you need a 300 yard range and the ability to read wind. You can do a field expedient zero at 36 yards, but it will probably be a little off. This gives excellent flexability to the platform, providing dead-nuts 300 zero with the ability to change zero for different long ranges. Once the 300 yard zero is done with the small aperture, simply flip up the big 0-2 sight for a fairly decent 50/200 yard zero. Some have reported a lateral zero shift when switching from the small to 0-2 aperture. When I did this test (only about 10 shooters) all of us but one were right on at 200 with the 0-2. I then shot the offending rifle and found it to be right on. Some people do not do well with the different perception of the sights. Of course, this is irrelevant if you do not have iron sights. I do not recommend a 300 yard zero for 1x optics, as the close-range offset is not conducive to a real close-range fight.

I do not recommend POA/POI at 25. If you have to do a 25 yard zero due to range constrictions, sight your piece in about 1" low, this will roughly approximate a 50 yard zero. If you are right on at 25 you will have distinct offset changes at close range and will have to hold under the desired POI from 25 out to almost 400 yards, and will be about 10 inches high at 200.

Just my .02.

Thanx Wayne D. for your insight on Tiger Valley and TJ in particular, while reading over both Tiger Valley's and Trident Concept's web pages I decided I can't go wrong with either and will take courses from both with Tiger Valley being first since I have already talked to TJ and very much appreciated/liked his attitude and 2A philosophy! We had a long talk on taboo subjects like : politics...aarghh...and societal woes and are in agreement on many things and if this translates into high quality training then I win on many front's.


Hey F2Stop, thanx for the info, i'll check out some of the effect's of those "zero's" at the range this weekend when I go blow about 100 rnds or so!


keep the replies coming if you have something else to impart fella's.

OK guy's great advice, know another "JDK" question. I have read all the posts I could while researching this website about training/schools and so forth and one of the most talked about things is training ammo and the need for some "good" stuff to shoot in class. Well, before I came across this sight I was under the impression that wolf ammo was perfectly suitable for training purposes and that "WWB" ammo was for "keeping for a rainy day" being brass and boxer if you will. I like most here I would suppose am a normal working man with family/responsibilities/bills and the like and higher ammo prices put stress on my budget for this training and shooting in general. Know that I see the need for a more quality ammo to go to "shoot school" as it where I am wondering if brass pickup is looked down upon or frowned on when you train, I save all my brass for reload or resale at the local metal scrap and it helps to keep me shooting, especially .22 brass because it saves in a small place and at the end of a cpl month's there's alot of it. I know it's probably a dum question and I am getting sneer's and jeer's but I just want to know.

That really depends on the facility and the instructor.

At South Hill, for instance, the last thing we did before closing the inaugural Vickers AK class was picking up the brass.

If the range and the instructor don't prohibit picking up brass, I doubt anyone is going to start throwing rotten fruit at you. ;)