Streamlining the new 41F requirements?

Just saw on TFB where it looks like Silencer Shop is taking pretty extreme measures to make things as simple and efficient as possible after 41F goes into effect. Essentially adding fingerprint scanning kiosks at most if not all of their "powered by" dealers and then handling the passport photo requirement though a mobile app.

What I'm wondering is if they'll be the only ones doing this or if we could expect a lot of NFA dealers to have similar setups for scanning fingerprints and taking passport photos at the location and time of sale.

Either way I think it's awesome that people in the industry are going to such lengths to reduce the ATF induced headaches. Hopefully the added convenience will reduce some of the pre-41F panic buying as well.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ew-41f-system/

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Originally Posted by plinkerr

Just saw on TFB where it looks like Silencer Shop is taking pretty extreme measures to make things as simple and efficient as possible after 41F goes into effect. Essentially adding fingerprint scanning kiosks at most if not all of their "powered by" dealers and then handling the passport photo requirement though a mobile app.

What I'm wondering is if they'll be the only ones doing this or if we could expect a lot of NFA dealers to have similar setups for scanning fingerprints and taking passport photos at the location and time of sale.

Either way I think it's awesome that people in the industry are going to such lengths to reduce the ATF induced headaches. Hopefully the added convenience will reduce some of the pre-41F panic buying as well.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ew-41f-system/

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My wife is not going to like this. I told her I was done buying suppressors, lol.

Pretty cool, IF everything runs smoothly and the ATF doesn't try to stop this method of form submission.

I think this is awesome of them to try to keep it easy for us. Now if they could get back on board with some of the major manufacturers again. I'm pretty sure they've lost the deal with Silencerco and Dead Air over pricing problems.

My local dealer is talking about doing the same thing.

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The entire kiosk system was designed and developed by Silencer Shop itself, literally requiring millions of dollars of investment capital.

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I appreciate what they are doing but millions to take a simple photo? There must be a hundred passport apps and that's if if you simply can't understand how to take a picture of your face.

The finger print thing is interesting. Not sure how they are going to do that. I wonder what's going to happen when that system is hacked or will it even matter. Aside from it producing legit prints. Is it really that hard to drop by the station and have a leo take your prints?

It seems like a huge waste of money to me. It's good customer relations but it just seems unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by tb-av

I appreciate what they are doing but millions to take a simple photo? There must be a hundred passport apps and that's if if you simply can't understand how to take a picture of your face.

The finger print thing is interesting. Not sure how they are going to do that. I wonder what's going to happen when that system is hacked or will it even matter. Aside from it producing legit prints. Is it really that hard to drop by the station and have a leo take your prints?

It seems like a huge waste of money to me. It's good customer relations but it just seems unnecessary.

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Photos will be by some app they're releasing. That's not where the millions comes in.

They posted elsewhere it was ~$1.5M for the fingerprint kiosks. Im assuming that's for the initial 300 based on how the question and answer were phrased. Guess we'll see how many more get added, as I think they have 1700 SSPB dealers.

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Originally Posted by tb-av

Is it really that hard to drop by the station and have a leo take your prints?

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It's a pain in the ass here for the most part.

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Originally Posted by BigWaylon

They posted elsewhere it was ~$1.5M for the fingerprint kiosks. Im assuming that's for the initial 300 based on how the question and answer were phrased.

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My company is a kiosk host for a couple of electronic fingerprint services providers in several of our locations. $5,000 for a kiosk is a little high, but not outrageously so.

If Silencer Shop does it right, the shops they partner with can also provide services for other entities authorized to receive fingerprint-based criminal histories (financial institutions, school systems, more-and-more state regulatory boards, etc.) . At $2.50 - $5.00 a customer, very little admin time, a little floor space, and a tiny slice of an internet connection, the ROI tilts positive in very short order.

Kudos to them!

Pretty sure I saw $25/suppressor as the fee to use it...at least for a dealer selling from their own inventory instead of a SS Powered By purchase. So the time to recoup the expense could be much faster.

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Originally Posted by domestique

and the ATF doesn't try to stop this method of form submission.

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Don't worry. There are plenty more letters in the alphabet for the ATF to use in making NFA purchases more PITA.

Well this is good news at least. I was wondering how much of a pain it was going to be. I've still got 2 pending on back order, if they don't come in then I'll have to jump through the new hoops...

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Originally Posted by markm

It's a pain in the ass here for the most part.

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Worse than pain in the ass here. Basically there is now only one Identification office (CCW applications, renewals, fingerprinting, guard cards, daycare licensing, etc.) at LV Metro, down in the ghetto on MLK. A friend at Metro told me to show up at 7:30 on a Friday morning to get in line for when they open at 8. I was in and out in an hour with just getting a fingerprint card for a Utah CCW application; but the people that got there at 8:00 took 3 hours. My neighbor in my office building was one of them and it took her 3 hours to get out. One of my employees went on a Tuesday at 10 and it took him 6 hours to get his CCW application in.

So getting everyone on a trust done for each form is going to be a massive pain in the ass. Thanks "Collector's Association" - don't every help anyone with ATF rule suggestions... ever.

Fingerprint cards are free from the ATF. Sirchie ink pads are <$20. Not sure how long of a wait the line in your kitchen would be. :D

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Originally Posted by BigWaylon

Fingerprint cards are free from the ATF. Sirchie ink pads are <$20. Not sure how long of a wait the line in your kitchen would be. :D

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I could be wrong but I'm 99% sure we won't be able to roll our own prints now.

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Originally Posted by plinkerr

I could be wrong but I'm 99% sure we won't be able to roll our own prints now.

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Justify that statement...as you're not the only one to say it.

The "new" statute is identical, word for word, to the current statute...in regards to fingerprints. If you can do your own today, there's no reason you won't be able to do them yourself after 7/12/16.

The current regulation:

27 CFR 479.63 - Identification of applicant.
§ 479.63 Identification of applicant.
If the applicant is an individual, the applicant shall securely attach to each copy of the Form 1 (Firearms), in the space provided on the form, a photograph of the applicant 2 × 2 inches in size, clearly showing a full front view of the features of the applicant with head bare, with the distance from the top of the head to the point of the chin approximately 1-1/4 inches, and which shall have been taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application. The applicant shall attach two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) to the application. The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and should be taken by someone properly equipped to take them. A certificate of the local chief of police, sheriff of the county, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor, or such other person whose certificate may in a particular case be acceptable to the Director, shall be completed on each copy of the Form 1 (Firearms). The certificate shall state that the certifying official is satisfied that the fingerprints and photograph accompanying the application are those of the applicant and that the certifying official has no information indicating that possession of the firearm by the maker would be in violation of State or local law or that the maker will use the firearm for other than lawful purposes.


The new regulation, from p241 of 41F:

4. Section 479.63 is revised to read as follows:
§479.63 Identification of applicant.
(a) If the applicant is an individual, the applicant shall:
(1) Securely attach to each copy of the Form 1, in the space provided on the form, a 2 x 2-inch photograph of the applicant, clearly showing a full front view of the features of the applicant with head bare, with the distance from the top of the head to the point of the chin approximately 1-1/4 inches, and which shall have been taken within 1 year prior to the date of the application; and
(2) Attach to the application two properly completed FBI Forms FD-258 (Fingerprint Card). The fingerprints must be clear for accurate classification and should be taken by someone properly equipped to take them.

Part of the confusion is that the full 41F documentation includes some portions that were not passed...and it does include adding CLEO Certification for all responsible persons. That did make it sound like it has to be done by CLEO...but that's not the final version of the regulations.

I'm not saying it's 100% possible...I'm simply pointing out the wording didn't change one bit from the current situation, in which people have been rolling their own. It simply says "properly equipped" and not any kind of certified, verified, qualified, or any other wording to limit it to certain persons.

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Originally Posted by BigWaylon

I'm not saying it's 100% possible...I'm simply pointing out the wording didn't change one bit from the current situation, ....

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Actually it changed significantly...

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"are those of the applicant and that the certifying official has no information indicating that possession of the firearm by the maker would be in violation of State or local law"

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the word "and" in the directions is no longer there. That significantly changes the scope of the meaning.

"and" means more than one thing has to happen. As in This AND That must take place or else it is invalid.

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My view on the situation is, yes, S_Co is doing the good deed.... But... we are also setting ourselves up for voluntary self regulation. that can be good or bad. Hey, you want this?.. Stick your hand in the machine... I'm actually fine with that but if the private sector is actually going to do the job then the feds need to step down. They no longer deserve the $200 tax stamp. So how exactly does that universal background check work?

It just seems as though we are giving Liberals what they want and paying for it. Not that the concept is bad but I see the Liberals grabbing on to this in a bad way.

This sort of negates the efforts to regain our rights to own ordinary items and items that are not firearms but taxed as such regarding suppressors.

OTOH... if every average joe shows up at LEO central all day long, they are going to get tired of that real fast and say... you know what.. give them suppressors.. .we will deal with the rest for now.

It's just a thought. Kudos to S_Co for what they do. I just wonder what the long term deal will be.... a big red box outside Walmart with your favorite firearm selection and a slot for your $1000 bills?

"Equipped" is different than "trained" or "certified". Wow, great post ^

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Originally Posted by tb-av

Actually it changed significantly...

the word "and" in the directions is no longer there. That significantly changes the scope of the meaning.

"and" means more than one thing has to happen. As in This AND That must take place or else it is invalid.

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But the "qualifications" (or whatever you want to call them) didn't change as to who can take them.

The CLEO currently has to certify that the person is indeed the person...which many CLEO have interpreted as "giving permission" even though that wasn't the point. The Certification has now become Notification. The CLEO is simply given a heads up that the form is being submitted, and they now have be proactive in letting the ATF know the person cannot possess the item instead of being able to shut them down by not signing up front.

Nothing has changed in regards to who can take them, and the "and" has nothing to do with that. Whether the ATF interprets it any differently is TBD.